Close Encounters Of The Third Kind

[Mark and Kim Smith]

Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
movie? Where are they now?

And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.

[JDupre5762]

>Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
>movie? Where are they now?
>
>And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
>blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.

Those were Navy TBM Avenger torpedo bombers that were supposed to represent the
famous lost squadron of 5 TBMs that crashed in 1945 in the supposed Bermuda
Triangle. The popular misconception is that the aircraft flew into some kind
of "disturbance" and disappeared. The reality is that the flight leader became
lost and disoriented and the aircraft ran out of gas at night in a storm.

TBMs were used for many years as firebombers in the west and for certain kindes
of crop spraying as well. Many now survive as warbirds and museum pieces.

TBMs easily weigh 10,000 pounds empty and more than 17,000 full so it would
take pretty hefty wind to blow them around.

John Dupre'

[Mark and Kim Smith]

Hi John,

I actually meant along the lines of who provided them for the movie,
as in Planes of Fame provided for the Pearl Harbor movie. Thanks! Mark

JDupre5762 wrote:

>>Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
>>movie? Where are they now?
>>
>>And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
>>blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.
>>
>>
>
>Those were Navy TBM Avenger torpedo bombers that were supposed to represent the
>famous lost squadron of 5 TBMs that crashed in 1945 in the supposed Bermuda
>Triangle. The popular misconception is that the aircraft flew into some kind
>of "disturbance" and disappeared. The reality is that the flight leader became
>lost and disoriented and the aircraft ran out of gas at night in a storm.
>
>TBMs were used for many years as firebombers in the west and for certain kindes
>of crop spraying as well. Many now survive as warbirds and museum pieces.
>
>TBMs easily weigh 10,000 pounds empty and more than 17,000 full so it would
>take pretty hefty wind to blow them around.
>
>John Dupre'
>
>
>

[N329DF]

#82, the one that was started in the movie came from the CAF. It is IIRC now
with a CAF wing in Colorado.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA

[robert arndt]

(JDupre5762) wrote in message >...
> >Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
> >movie? Where are they now?
> >
> >And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
> >blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.
>
> Those were Navy TBM Avenger torpedo bombers that were supposed to represent the
> famous lost squadron of 5 TBMs that crashed in 1945 in the supposed Bermuda
> Triangle. The popular misconception is that the aircraft flew into some kind
> of "disturbance" and disappeared. The reality is that the flight leader became
> lost and disoriented and the aircraft ran out of gas at night in a storm.


The lost squadron was "Flight 19" and the circumstances surrounding
their disappearance has never been explained despite the above "simple
explanation". None of the aircraft nor any sign of survival gear have
ever been found. The flight leader didn't just get lost, the entire
flight lost all bearing on where they were and could not establish a
way back to base. The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
as well as time being lost.
The above posts claims they crashed in the Triangle but they have
never been found. Some excitement was caused years back when other TBM
aircraft were discovered in the area but they were NOT Flight 19.
For more information read the book "The Disappearance of Flight 19"
(1980) by Larry Kusche (ISBN: 0060124776).
Best place to get it from: www.bookfinder.com

Rob

[Tex Houston]

"Mark and Kim Smith" > wrote in message
...
> Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
> movie? Where are they now?
>
> And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
> blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.

I didn't see the movie but a director once told me there's movies and
there's real life.

Were they MILITARY aircraft?


Tex

[Marc Reeve]

Tex Houston > wrote:
> "Mark and Kim Smith" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
> > movie? Where are they now?
> >
> > And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
> > blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.
>
> I didn't see the movie but a director once told me there's movies and
> there's real life.
>
> Were they MILITARY aircraft?
>
Yes, Tex, they were. Avenger torpedo bombers, representing the 5 missing
TBMs of "Flight 19" (though no sign of a Martin flying boat, which also
went "missing" while searching for the missing TBMs.). A classic
"Bermuda Triangle" moment, being blamed on aliens.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

[tim gueguen]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> (JDupre5762) wrote in message
>...
> > >Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
> > >movie? Where are they now?
> > >
> > >And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
> > >blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or
chocked.
> >
> > Those were Navy TBM Avenger torpedo bombers that were supposed to
represent the
> > famous lost squadron of 5 TBMs that crashed in 1945 in the supposed
Bermuda
> > Triangle. The popular misconception is that the aircraft flew into some
kind
> > of "disturbance" and disappeared. The reality is that the flight leader
became
> > lost and disoriented and the aircraft ran out of gas at night in a
storm.
>
>
> The lost squadron was "Flight 19" and the circumstances surrounding
> their disappearance has never been explained despite the above "simple
> explanation". None of the aircraft nor any sign of survival gear have
> ever been found.

Right, because its hard to find a bunch of relatively small aircraft in a
large area of ocean after the fact.

The flight leader didn't just get lost, the entire
> flight lost all bearing on where they were and could not establish a
> way back to base.

It was a training flight. Only the flight leader had any real navigation
experience, and the other pilots relied on his direction. If he screwed up
they were screwed.

The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
> as well as time being lost.

No, books written 3 decades later made that claim.

tim gueguen 101867

[Mark and Kim Smith]

At least in the movie it was blamed on aliens. Real life, I guess we
won't know until they are found. Where the heck is that Titanic /
Yorktown guy!!

Marc Reeve wrote:

>Tex Houston > wrote:
>
>
>>"Mark and Kim Smith" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>>>Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
>>>movie? Where are they now?
>>>
>>>And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
>>>blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.
>>>
>>>
>>I didn't see the movie but a director once told me there's movies and
>>there's real life.
>>
>>Were they MILITARY aircraft?
>>
>>
>>
>Yes, Tex, they were. Avenger torpedo bombers, representing the 5 missing
>TBMs of "Flight 19" (though no sign of a Martin flying boat, which also
>went "missing" while searching for the missing TBMs.). A classic
>"Bermuda Triangle" moment, being blamed on aliens.
>
> -Marc
>
>

[[email protected]]

(robert arndt) wrote:

> The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
>as well as time being lost.

<snort> Riiiight!!
--

-Gord.

[Dave Kearton]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
| (robert arndt) wrote:
|
| > The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
| >as well as time being lost.
|
| <snort> Riiiight!!
| --
|
| -Gord.


(according to the program I saw...)


At that time of the year off the Florida Keys, the horizon blends easily
into the sky - similar to the sky full of snow that you'd be accustomed to.

The primary difference between the two locations would be that Florida lacks
huge quantities of Cumulo-granite.



The TV special that I saw went through the entire Bermuda Triangle myth and
offered logical explanations to all of the major stories.


I'm not sold on the idea of aliens or Atlantis or whatever - basically the
special blamed the Canadians.


Makes sense to me.


Cheers


Dave Kearton (my smiley button isn't working - but you get the idea)

[[email protected]]

"Tex Houston" > wrote:

>
>"Mark and Kim Smith" > wrote in message
...
>> Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
>> movie? Where are they now?
>>
>> And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
>> blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or chocked.
>
>I didn't see the movie but a director once told me there's movies and
>there's real life.
>
>Were they MILITARY aircraft?
>
>
>Tex
>
Of course...that area is plagued with very bad weather which
likely accounts for the high number of incidents. It's also close
to the deepest point in the Atlantic Ocean, the Puerto Rico
Trench, some 25,000 feet deep. There's an Argus with the remains
of it's 20 Canadian crewmembers lying on the bottom there
forever.
--

-Gord.

[Dave Holford]

Dave Kearton wrote:
>
> "Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> ...
> | (robert arndt) wrote:
> |
> | > The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
> | >as well as time being lost.
> |
> | <snort> Riiiight!!
> | --
> |
> | -Gord.
>
> (according to the program I saw...)
>
> At that time of the year off the Florida Keys, the horizon blends easily
> into the sky - similar to the sky full of snow that you'd be accustomed to.
>
> The primary difference between the two locations would be that Florida lacks
> huge quantities of Cumulo-granite.
>
> The TV special that I saw went through the entire Bermuda Triangle myth and
> offered logical explanations to all of the major stories.
>
> I'm not sold on the idea of aliens or Atlantis or whatever - basically the
> special blamed the Canadians.
>
> Makes sense to me.
>
> Cheers
>
> Dave Kearton (my smiley button isn't working - but you get the idea)


Gord,

Better watch out for those huge quantities of Cumulo-granite down-east.

I would be very surprised if you have not accumulated a good many hours
in the skies of the Bermuda triangle over the years.

I seem to recall some years ago a statement, which I think originated
with the USCG, that there were actually less aircraft and marine
casualties in the Bermuda triange than other areas, it was just the
traffic density that accounted for the numbers.

Dave

[JDupre5762]

>The lost squadron was "Flight 19" and the circumstances surrounding
>their disappearance has never been explained despite the above "simple
>explanation". None of the aircraft nor any sign of survival gear have
>ever been found. The flight leader didn't just get lost, the entire
>flight lost all bearing on where they were and could not establish a
>way back to base. The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
>as well as time being lost.
>The above posts claims they crashed in the Triangle but they have
>never been found. Some excitement was caused years back when other TBM
>aircraft were discovered in the area but they were NOT Flight 19.
>For more information read the book "The Disappearance of Flight 19"
>(1980) by Larry Kusche (ISBN: 0060124776).
>Best place to get it from: www.bookfinder.com
>
>Rob

>From: (robert arndt)

It has been satisfactorily explained several times beginning with the Navy
Court of Inquiry in 1945. Several years ago a pilot who was also in the air at
the same time and tried to communicate with Flight 19 mentioned in an interview
that at the time there was no real mystery as to what happened. Everyone
involved realized that the Flight Leader was disoriented including other
members of the flight who tried to point out that they were headed in the wrong
direction. These were Navy pilots trained to follow the orders of the flight
leader. As for no wreckage being found it is a big ocean and even 5 TBMs are
pretty small. By the time they crashed it was dark and there was a storm
raging. Prospects of surviving that ditching are pretty small. Prospects of
any wreckage being scattered to hell and gone are pretty great. Whole ships
have been lost with no more wreckage left than would fill a suitcase. The
aircraft will eventually be found where the half dozen radio fixes placed them
about 100 miles northeast of the northern corner of Florida.

The best book ever written on the subject of the Triangle is The Bermuda
Triangle Mystery: Solved; it absolutely demolishes all the cockamamie theories
with actual research with sources like the New York Times and Lloyds Shipping
Register and records of Courts of Inquiry.

John Dupre'

[[email protected]]

"Dave Kearton" >
wrote:

>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>| (robert arndt) wrote:
>|
>| > The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
>| >as well as time being lost.
>|
>| <snort> Riiiight!!
>| --
>|
>| -Gord.
>
>
>(according to the program I saw...)
>
>
>At that time of the year off the Florida Keys, the horizon blends easily
>into the sky - similar to the sky full of snow that you'd be accustomed to.
>

Snow?...what's that?...we have no snow here, it's been +5 or +6
deg here for a week or so and wasn't below +1 for a month before
that here Dave.

>The primary difference between the two locations would be that Florida lacks
>huge quantities of Cumulo-granite.
>
Not a lotta Cumulo-Granito here either, lot's of soft red earth
good for growing potatoes though.
>
>The TV special that I saw went through the entire Bermuda Triangle myth and
>offered logical explanations to all of the major stories.
>
>
>I'm not sold on the idea of aliens or Atlantis or whatever - basically the
>special blamed the Canadians.
>
Why blame us? hell the 'triangle' is ~800 miles south of us here.

>Makes sense to me.
>
>
>Cheers
>
>
>Dave Kearton (my smiley button isn't working - but you get the idea)
>

Okkk... :)
--

-Gord.

[WaltBJ]

One of Flight 19's Avengers was caught in a shrimper's net about
halfway between Key West and Marco Island about 15 years ago. look on
a map and see how lost that guy was. As for the Bermuda Triangle, I
flew 102s and 104s all over the southern part of it and am still here.
I think. Wooo - woo.
Walt BJ

[Dave Kearton]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
| "Dave Kearton" >
| wrote:
|
| >(according to the program I saw...)
| >
| >
| >At that time of the year off the Florida Keys, the horizon blends easily
| >into the sky - similar to the sky full of snow that you'd be accustomed
to.
| >
|
| Snow?...what's that?...we have no snow here, it's been +5 or +6
| deg here for a week or so and wasn't below +1 for a month before
| that here Dave.
|



Thinking more about the 'career snow' that you would have encountered in the
Argus. Our Orion crews rarely see _very_ cold weather, except when
gong way down south along the Antarctic coast and on rotations to the
northern hemisphere.


Still, I suppose flying into a white out is similar to flying at night - if
you're prepared (and trained) for it.





| >The primary difference between the two locations would be that Florida
lacks
| >huge quantities of Cumulo-granite.
| >


| Not a lotta Cumulo-Granito here either, lot's of soft red earth
| good for growing potatoes though.



Soft red earth may as well be granite in the wrong circumstances.





| >
| >The TV special that I saw went through the entire Bermuda Triangle myth
and
| >offered logical explanations to all of the major stories.
| >
| >
| >I'm not sold on the idea of aliens or Atlantis or whatever - basically
the
| >special blamed the Canadians.
| >



| Why blame us? hell the 'triangle' is ~800 miles south of us here.
|



Only kidding Gord - the automatic ;-) should have deployed here.




| >Makes sense to me.
| >
| >
| >Cheers
| >
| >
| >Dave Kearton (my smiley button isn't working - but you get the idea)
| >
|
| Okkk... :)

--


Cheers


Dave Kearton



| --
|
| -Gord.

[Marc Reeve]

WaltBJ > wrote:

> One of Flight 19's Avengers was caught in a shrimper's net about
> halfway between Key West and Marco Island about 15 years ago. look on
> a map and see how lost that guy was. As for the Bermuda Triangle, I
> flew 102s and 104s all over the southern part of it and am still here.
> I think. Wooo - woo.
> Walt BJ

Mel Fisher and crew brought that plane up in 1987. A serial number check
showed that it was not one of the five planes lost with Flight 19.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

[Mark and Kim Smith]

Did Mel display it in front of his museum like he wanted? Mark

Marc Reeve wrote:

>WaltBJ > wrote:
>
>
>
>>One of Flight 19's Avengers was caught in a shrimper's net about
>>halfway between Key West and Marco Island about 15 years ago. look on
>>a map and see how lost that guy was. As for the Bermuda Triangle, I
>>flew 102s and 104s all over the southern part of it and am still here.
>>I think. Wooo - woo.
>>Walt BJ
>>
>>
>
>Mel Fisher and crew brought that plane up in 1987. A serial number check
>showed that it was not one of the five planes lost with Flight 19.
>
> -Marc
>
>

[robert arndt]

"tim gueguen" > wrote in message news:<RD1Ib.866484$9l5.274956@pd7tw2no>...
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (JDupre5762) wrote in message
> >...
> > > >Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
> > > >movie? Where are they now?
> > > >
> > > >And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert winds
> > > >blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down or
> chocked.
> > >
> > > Those were Navy TBM Avenger torpedo bombers that were supposed to
> represent the
> > > famous lost squadron of 5 TBMs that crashed in 1945 in the supposed
> Bermuda
> > > Triangle. The popular misconception is that the aircraft flew into some
> kind
> > > of "disturbance" and disappeared. The reality is that the flight leader
> became
> > > lost and disoriented and the aircraft ran out of gas at night in a
> storm.
> >
> >
> > The lost squadron was "Flight 19" and the circumstances surrounding
> > their disappearance has never been explained despite the above "simple
> > explanation". None of the aircraft nor any sign of survival gear have
> > ever been found.
>
> Right, because its hard to find a bunch of relatively small aircraft in a
> large area of ocean after the fact.

But usually something like wreckage, debris, or floating bodies are
found then or later. They NEVER found ANYTHING.
>
> The flight leader didn't just get lost, the entire
> > flight lost all bearing on where they were and could not establish a
> > way back to base.
>
> It was a training flight. Only the flight leader had any real navigation
> experience, and the other pilots relied on his direction. If he screwed up
> they were screwed.

Not so as the leader was advised that turning west would be best. From
his correct position in the north (he believed he was heading south)
turning west would have taken the flight back over land. But the
conditions stated below caused him to think otherwise so he declined
and either headed straight north into the Atlantic or south into the
Gulf of Mexico.
>
> The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
> > as well as time being lost.
>
> No, books written 3 decades later made that claim.

Because those remarks were omitted from the "official" report. The
flight leader could not determine position because they sky suddenly
appeared to be blended and there was (at least in the mind of the
flight leader) a loss of time.
>
> tim gueguen 101867

I don't in any way suggest alien abduction, nor necessarily the
oft-claimed effects of the Triangle. But I do believe something other
than "he simply got lost" is to blame. You can't use the big ocean
excuse for not finding the planes. Deep See found a bunch of TBMs that
they thought were Flight 19- turns out they weren't. If they sunk,
they eventually will be found. If they disappeared, that's another
story. And what about the other missing search plane too? Just
coincidence?

Rob

[Matt Wiser]

(WaltBJ) wrote:
>One of Flight 19's Avengers was caught in a
>shrimper's net about
>halfway between Key West and Marco Island about
>15 years ago. look on
>a map and see how lost that guy was. As for
>the Bermuda Triangle, I
>flew 102s and 104s all over the southern part
>of it and am still here.
>I think. Wooo - woo.
>Walt BJ
Walt, you may be wrong. Every few years, TBMs are found off of Florida,
and there is the usual announcement that "Flight 19 has been found". Problem
is that none of the side numbers or BuNos match the missing aircraft. What
happened to Flight 19 is in dispute. Nobody disputes the loss of Training
49 (the PBM) at 7:30 PM that night. A passing tanker noted a plane that caught
fire in the air, spiraled in and exploded on impact. The ship changed course
to provide assistance, but only found a burning pool of oil. The CVE USS
Solomons noted two radar contacts taking off from NAS Banana River (Now Patrick
AFB) and one of these dropped off the scope at 7:30: at the time and place
the tanker saw the plane crash. Two PBMs took off, but only one (Training
32) returned the next morning. 13 aircrew lost on the PBM. Now, what happened
to Flight 19 may never be known.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Matt Wiser]

(JDupre5762) wrote:
>>The lost squadron was "Flight 19" and the circumstances
>surrounding
>>their disappearance has never been explained
>despite the above "simple
>>explanation". None of the aircraft nor any
>sign of survival gear have
>>ever been found. The flight leader didn't just
>get lost, the entire
>>flight lost all bearing on where they were
>and could not establish a
>>way back to base. The sky was reported as distorted,
>not making sense
>>as well as time being lost.
>>The above posts claims they crashed in the
>Triangle but they have
>>never been found. Some excitement was caused
>years back when other TBM
>>aircraft were discovered in the area but they
>were NOT Flight 19.
>>For more information read the book "The Disappearance
>of Flight 19"
>>(1980) by Larry Kusche (ISBN: 0060124776).
>>Best place to get it from: www.bookfinder.com
>>
>>Rob
>
>>From: (robert arndt)
>
>It has been satisfactorily explained several
>times beginning with the Navy
>Court of Inquiry in 1945. Several years ago
>a pilot who was also in the air at
>the same time and tried to communicate with
>Flight 19 mentioned in an interview
>that at the time there was no real mystery as
>to what happened. Everyone
>involved realized that the Flight Leader was
>disoriented including other
>members of the flight who tried to point out
>that they were headed in the wrong
>direction. These were Navy pilots trained to
>follow the orders of the flight
>leader. As for no wreckage being found it is
>a big ocean and even 5 TBMs are
>pretty small. By the time they crashed it was
>dark and there was a storm
>raging. Prospects of surviving that ditching
>are pretty small. Prospects of
>any wreckage being scattered to hell and gone
>are pretty great. Whole ships
>have been lost with no more wreckage left than
>would fill a suitcase. The
>aircraft will eventually be found where the
>half dozen radio fixes placed them
>about 100 miles northeast of the northern corner
>of Florida.
>
>The best book ever written on the subject of
>the Triangle is The Bermuda
>Triangle Mystery: Solved; it absolutely demolishes
>all the cockamamie theories
>with actual research with sources like the New
>York Times and Lloyds Shipping
>Register and records of Courts of Inquiry.
>
>John Dupre'
Yes, but the author never interviewed anyone involved with any of the non-Flight
19 incidents; he relied on long-distance phone calls and later admitted filtering
out information from eyewitness accounts and official documents that conflicted
with his debunking-sort of like Phill Klass with UFOs: if the info or witness
contradicts your preconceptions, disregard it.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[JDupre5762]

> And what about the other missing search plane too? Just
>coincidence?
>

The search plane took off out of the Banana River NAS and blew up shortly
afterward. Martin PBM Mariners were famous for leaking gas into the fuselage
and blowing up as a result. Again there was no mystery to the Navy over the
loss of the PBM which was seen to crash by a number of vessels at sea at the
time. The popular books distort the timeline and make it seem that the PBM
disappeared at the same time as Flight 19 was declaring itself lost. In fact
the PBM was dispatched hours later to begin searching for Flight 19 when it
was clear they would end up ditching.

John Dupre'

[[email protected]]

Dave Holford > wrote:

>I would be very surprised if you have not accumulated a good many hours
>in the skies of the Bermuda triangle over the years.
>

For sure Dave...

>I seem to recall some years ago a statement, which I think originated
>with the USCG, that there were actually less aircraft and marine
>casualties in the Bermuda triange than other areas, it was just the
>traffic density that accounted for the numbers.
>
>Dave

Sounds right...it's certainly one bitchin wild spot for weather
in the fall and winter too. Friggin Gale Alley there and even
worse off the East Coast of Newfie baby-sitting a fence of
sonobuoys for hour after hour at endurance power and occasionally
replacing a dud...Jesus I'm glad I'm retired.
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Dave Kearton" >
wrote:

>
>Thinking more about the 'career snow' that you would have encountered in the
>Argus. Our Orion crews rarely see _very_ cold weather, except when
>gong way down south along the Antarctic coast and on rotations to the
>northern hemisphere.
>
>
>Still, I suppose flying into a white out is similar to flying at night - if
>you're prepared (and trained) for it.
>
>
Yes indeed...BTW, did you ever read "Impact Erebus"?...about the
Air New Zealand's DC-10 going into Mount Erebus in the antarctic
with 200 plus tourists. True story of Arctic 'whiteout'. One of
the most interesting aircraft disaster stories that I've ever
read. I have the New Zealand Gov't's Royal Commission of Inquiry
into that crash too. They weren't too kind to Air NZ's hierarchy
(whose fault it was of course) either.

--

-Gord.

[Marc Reeve]

Mark and Kim Smith > wrote:
> Marc Reeve wrote:
> > >WaltBJ > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>One of Flight 19's Avengers was caught in a shrimper's net about
> >>halfway between Key West and Marco Island about 15 years ago. look on
> >>a map and see how lost that guy was. As for the Bermuda Triangle, I
> >>flew 102s and 104s all over the southern part of it and am still here.
> >>I think. Wooo - woo.
> >>Walt BJ
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Mel Fisher and crew brought that plane up in 1987. A serial number check
> >showed that it was not one of the five planes lost with Flight 19.
> >
> > -Marc
> >
>
> Did Mel display it in front of his museum like he wanted? Mark
>
Don't know. The Mel Fisher Museum website makes no mention of it, and I
have yet to travel to Florida to see for myself.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

[Marc Reeve]

robert arndt > wrote:
> "tim gueguen" > wrote in message
> news:<RD1Ib.866484$9l5.274956@pd7tw2no>...
> > "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > (JDupre5762) wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > >Where'd the planes come from that were shown at the beginning of the
> > > > >movie? Where are they now?
> > > > >
> > > > >And for a question not based on reality, why wasn't the desert
> > > > > winds blowing them around? The aliens didn't leave them tied down
> > > > > or chocked.
> > > >
> > > > Those were Navy TBM Avenger torpedo bombers that were supposed to
> > > > represent the famous lost squadron of 5 TBMs that crashed in 1945 in
> > > > the supposed Bermuda Triangle. The popular misconception is that
> > > > the aircraft flew into some kind of "disturbance" and disappeared.
> > > > The reality is that the flight leader became lost and disoriented
> > > > and the aircraft ran out of gas at night in a storm.
> > >
> > >
> > > The lost squadron was "Flight 19" and the circumstances surrounding
> > > their disappearance has never been explained despite the above "simple
> > > explanation". None of the aircraft nor any sign of survival gear have
> > > ever been found.
> >
> > Right, because its hard to find a bunch of relatively small aircraft in a
> > large area of ocean after the fact.
>
> But usually something like wreckage, debris, or floating bodies are
> found then or later. They NEVER found ANYTHING.
> >
> > > The flight leader didn't just get lost, the entire
> > > flight lost all bearing on where they were and could not establish a
> > > way back to base.
> >
> > It was a training flight. Only the flight leader had any real
> > navigation experience, and the other pilots relied on his direction. If
> > he screwed up they were screwed.
>
> Not so as the leader was advised that turning west would be best. From
> his correct position in the north (he believed he was heading south)
> turning west would have taken the flight back over land. But the
> conditions stated below caused him to think otherwise so he declined
> and either headed straight north into the Atlantic or south into the
> Gulf of Mexico.
> >
> > > The sky was reported as distorted, not making sense
> > > as well as time being lost.
> >
> > No, books written 3 decades later made that claim.
>
> Because those remarks were omitted from the "official" report. The
> flight leader could not determine position because they sky suddenly
> appeared to be blended and there was (at least in the mind of the
> flight leader) a loss of time.
>
> I don't in any way suggest alien abduction, nor necessarily the
> oft-claimed effects of the Triangle. But I do believe something other
> than "he simply got lost" is to blame. You can't use the big ocean
> excuse for not finding the planes. Deep See found a bunch of TBMs that
> they thought were Flight 19- turns out they weren't. If they sunk,
> they eventually will be found. If they disappeared, that's another
> story. And what about the other missing search plane too? Just
> coincidence?
>
The History Channel ran one of their "History's Mysteries" specials on
Flight 19 a few years ago. Their guy had the theory that they may have
been blown farther north than they knew, and ended up coming down in the
Okefenokee Swamp. Once there, they'd have sunk into the bog and never
been seen again. Eventually, the acidic water would have eaten the
planes and the pilots' bodies away. (Either that or one of the
semi-frequent forest fires would have burned the wreckage away. Hey, I'm
not making this up...)

Of course, there's no way to really test this theory unless someone
should happen to survey the Okefenokee with ground-penetrating radar.

-Marc

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m