FW TA-183 Huckebein.....did it ever fly?

[KC]

On going discussion we are having....only one black and white picture shows
landing and it is suspect. Did this late WWII German fighter fly or was it
even built?

TIA,

[Krztalizer]

The Jägerstaß didn't even allocate funding for a mockup, let alone a flying
example. By the point in the war when this was really moving forward, the SS
had taken over 'strategic aircraft' production and ordered most other projects
halted - but centralized control was deteriorating and many aviation companies
kept building whatever they were used to, using up additional critical war
resources, while such things as the 183 project danced in their heads. The
BAMA archiv has lots of info on the final couple of months and nothing suggests
a successful test flight, or even a wrk. n., being assigned to an airframe of
this type.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Krztalizer]

Besides, if the Ta 183 V1 HAD flown, wouldn't Clostermann have encountered it?
;)

[robert arndt]

(Krztalizer) wrote in message >...
> The Jägerstaß didn't even allocate funding for a mockup, let alone a flying
> example. By the point in the war when this was really moving forward, the SS
> had taken over 'strategic aircraft' production and ordered most other projects
> halted - but centralized control was deteriorating and many aviation companies
> kept building whatever they were used to, using up additional critical war
> resources, while such things as the 183 project danced in their heads. The
> BAMA archiv has lots of info on the final couple of months and nothing suggests
> a successful test flight, or even a wrk. n., being assigned to an airframe of
> this type.
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

At the beginning of March 1945, with the award of a contract to build
a prototype, the aircraft recieved the RLM type number 8-183. The
fuselage and vertical tail were to be constructed of steel and
Duraluminum; the wings and horizontal tail surfaces of wood. The data
are taken from specification sheet JP.011.018a "Single jet fighter
with HeS 011a" of 18th February 1945.
NOTE: This is considered Design II (Design I being the Fw Flitzer and
Design III a second alternative Ta 183).
Focke-Wulf began with the construction of the Ta 183V-1. Powered by
the Jumo 004, this first prototype was also to be used to test the
Design III tail unit. The maiden flight of this aircraft was scheduled
for May/June 1945. If a production contract followed, Focke-Wulf
planned to have the first production machines completed by October
1945.
On 8th April 1945 British troops took over Focke-Wulf's design
department at Bad Eilsen.

- "Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945" by Walter Schick and
Ingolf Meyer (1994/7)

Although there has never been any proof that the Ta 183V-1 was
actually constructed it is known that the Soviets got a complete set
of plans for the aircraft and turned them over to MiG. The MiG 15
didn't happen by chance you know.
Parts of the Ta 183, however, were said to be completed (as were those
of Heinkel's own He-343 jet bomber).

Rob

[KC]

Thanks guys.
The story that is in our discussion is that the Soviets built and flew the
183 one source claims 6 were built. His proof is this highly suspect black &
while photo of the Huck landing.

Please take a look at the (hobby) link I have posted for the picture a tell
me what you think.

http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/kuster183.htm

Thanks


"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> (Krztalizer) wrote in message
>...
> > The Jägerstaß didn't even allocate funding for a mockup, let alone a
flying
> > example. By the point in the war when this was really moving forward,
the SS
> > had taken over 'strategic aircraft' production and ordered most other
projects
> > halted - but centralized control was deteriorating and many aviation
companies
> > kept building whatever they were used to, using up additional critical
war
> > resources, while such things as the 183 project danced in their heads.
The
> > BAMA archiv has lots of info on the final couple of months and nothing
suggests
> > a successful test flight, or even a wrk. n., being assigned to an
airframe of
> > this type.
> >
> > v/r
> > Gordon
> > <====(A+C====>
> > USN SAR
> >
> > Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos
to a
> > reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.
>
> At the beginning of March 1945, with the award of a contract to build
> a prototype, the aircraft recieved the RLM type number 8-183. The
> fuselage and vertical tail were to be constructed of steel and
> Duraluminum; the wings and horizontal tail surfaces of wood. The data
> are taken from specification sheet JP.011.018a "Single jet fighter
> with HeS 011a" of 18th February 1945.
> NOTE: This is considered Design II (Design I being the Fw Flitzer and
> Design III a second alternative Ta 183).
> Focke-Wulf began with the construction of the Ta 183V-1. Powered by
> the Jumo 004, this first prototype was also to be used to test the
> Design III tail unit. The maiden flight of this aircraft was scheduled
> for May/June 1945. If a production contract followed, Focke-Wulf
> planned to have the first production machines completed by October
> 1945.
> On 8th April 1945 British troops took over Focke-Wulf's design
> department at Bad Eilsen.
>
> - "Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945" by Walter Schick and
> Ingolf Meyer (1994/7)
>
> Although there has never been any proof that the Ta 183V-1 was
> actually constructed it is known that the Soviets got a complete set
> of plans for the aircraft and turned them over to MiG. The MiG 15
> didn't happen by chance you know.
> Parts of the Ta 183, however, were said to be completed (as were those
> of Heinkel's own He-343 jet bomber).
>
> Rob

[Nick Pedley]

"KC" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks guys.
> The story that is in our discussion is that the Soviets built and flew the
> 183 one source claims 6 were built. His proof is this highly suspect black
&
> while photo of the Huck landing.
>
> Please take a look at the (hobby) link I have posted for the picture a
tell
> me what you think.
>
> http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/kuster183.htm
>
> Thanks
>
My money's on that being a Soviet build or a very good fake pic.

Nick

[robert arndt]

"Nick Pedley" > wrote in message >...
> "KC" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks guys.
> > The story that is in our discussion is that the Soviets built and flew the
> > 183 one source claims 6 were built. His proof is this highly suspect black
> &
> > while photo of the Huck landing.
> >
> > Please take a look at the (hobby) link I have posted for the picture a
> tell
> > me what you think.
> >
> > http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/kuster183.htm
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> My money's on that being a Soviet build or a very good fake pic.
>
> Nick


Sorry, it is neither. It is a German flying model, one of Focke-Wulf
Bad Eilsen's as evidenced by the Design II features (especially the
tail). For similar "in-flight/on ground" model photos look up Ar.
E.381, He P.1077 Julia, Me-265, and Me P.1112. The only German
aircraft that were built/completed in the USSR postwar were some of
the Ju EF-series (126,131,140,150), Ju-248, and the DFS 346. Of these,
only the EF 126 and DFS 346 were purely German.
The Soviets got their Ta 183 plans from the RLM office in Berlin.
Although heavily influenced by the Ta 183 the MiG S/I-310 prototypes
were not German-built.

Photo of I-310 S-1:

http://www.lizdas.it/aviacija/rusija/1946_1965/mig_15/mig-15.jpg

Photo of I-310 S-3:

http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/MiG-15/I-310_1.jpg

Photo of La-168 competitor (which looks closer to Ta 183 Design II):

http://tanks45.tripod.com/Jets45/Histories/MiG-15/La168_1.jpg

Rob

[robert arndt]

"Nick Pedley" > wrote in message >...
> "KC" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Thanks guys.
> > The story that is in our discussion is that the Soviets built and flew the
> > 183 one source claims 6 were built. His proof is this highly suspect black
> &
> > while photo of the Huck landing.
> >
> > Please take a look at the (hobby) link I have posted for the picture a
> tell
> > me what you think.
> >
> > http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/kuster183.htm

Although the Ta 183V-1 wasn't built Kurt Tank did build an aircraft
like it in Argentina postwar- the Pulqui II:

http://www.flug-revue.rotor.com/FRTypen/Frfothis/Pulqui.jpg

and in a museum:

http://www.integration.co.nz/aviation/aircraft/Argentina/argnm.jpg

Rob

[steve gallacci]

robert arndt wrote:
>
> "Nick Pedley" > wrote in message >...
> > "KC" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Thanks guys.
> > > The story that is in our discussion is that the Soviets built and flew the
> > > 183 one source claims 6 were built. His proof is this highly suspect black
> > &
> > > while photo of the Huck landing.
> > >
> > > Please take a look at the (hobby) link I have posted for the picture a
> > tell
> > > me what you think.
> > >
> > > http://m2reviews.cnsi.net/reviews/axis/luft/kuster183.htm
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > My money's on that being a Soviet build or a very good fake pic.
> >
> > Nick
>
> Sorry, it is neither. It is a German flying model, one of Focke-Wulf
> Bad Eilsen's as evidenced by the Design II features (especially the
> tail). For similar "in-flight/on ground" model photos look up Ar.
> E.381, He P.1077 Julia, Me-265, and Me P.1112. The only German
> aircraft that were built/completed in the USSR postwar were some of
> the Ju EF-series (126,131,140,150), Ju-248, and the DFS 346. Of these,
> only the EF 126 and DFS 346 were purely German.
> The Soviets got their Ta 183 plans from the RLM office in Berlin.
> Although heavily influenced by the Ta 183 the MiG S/I-310 prototypes
> were not German-built.
>
There was little direct influence of the Ta183 on MiG efforts,
especially the MiG 15, but it did closely parallel and assist Lagg
efforts. Though the eventual Lagg 15 could be considered a production
adaption of the '183, being very similar in features, it could also be
more a matter of convergent evolution, as the intended roles were very
similar. Overall, the '183 was likely more of a supplemental validation
of on going Russian design work that a direct item to be copied, as some
features pre-date access to the German work.

As to the '183 itself, I was under the impression that work was well
underway on at least one, if not three prototypes by the end of the
war(?) as some sources claim a time line of flight tests intended for
summer of '45 (?)

[Krztalizer]

>
>As to the '183 itself, I was under the impression that work was well
>underway on at least one, if not three prototypes by the end of the
>war(?) as some sources claim a time line of flight tests intended for
>summer of '45 (?)

My general area of interest is German and British aerial nightfighting and
Focke Wulf Luft 46 projects are outside my usual reading, so I have not seen
the source documents that Radinger and Schick have for their book on this
project - what Rob reports is news to me as well. R and S did a credible job
on the Me 262 books, but missed entirely on some aspects, so I would still want
to know the pilot, date, and location of any claimed test flight for a Ta 183 -
remember, there were rumours of an HG II being completed as well, but it never
turned up in the photographic record.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[robert arndt]

> remember, there were rumours of an HG II being completed as well, but it never
> turned up in the photographic record.
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

Before the Me 262 HG II (Werk Nummer 111538)could commence flight
trials it was seriously damaged in a ground accident. Repairs were not
completed by war's end.

- from "Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945" pg 85

The HG I (aka Me 262 V9, werk nummer 130004) flew with chief test
pilot Karl Baur at the controls in Jan 1945 while the unfinished HG
III was windtunnel tested by the British in the LFA wind tunnel at
Volkenrode in Nov 1945 with standard unswept tail unit.

- same book, pg 85

Rob

[Krztalizer]

>
>Before the Me 262 HG II (Werk Nummer 111538)could commence flight
>trials it was seriously damaged in a ground accident. Repairs were not
>completed by war's end.
>
>- from "Luftwaffe Secret Projects: Fighters 1939-1945" pg 85

I know about that claim - "Prototype for swept wing and tail, HGII - Damaged by
another aircraft on the ground - (Erprobungsberichte 56)" -- I have friends
that collect those reports and have a copy myself, buried somewhere. However,
the aircraft is often reported as "completed" i.e., flight worthy, and further,
that it made test flights. We've been working that knot for year: the
airframe was substantially complete, reported ready for testing within 48
hours, then, the official record goes silent - no wreckage or airframe in this
configuration was found following the war.

>The HG I (aka Me 262 V9, werk nummer 130004) flew with chief test
>pilot Karl Baur at the controls in Jan 1945 while the unfinished HG
>III was windtunnel tested by the British in the LFA wind tunnel at
>Volkenrode in Nov 1945 with standard unswept tail unit.
>

I have the photos of the wind tunnel model being tested - pretty damn shocking
when Richard first found the report buried at NARA, showing clearly that German
scientists were demonstrating their wind tunnel, using the HG III analog!, to
prove their WT technology to their American captors.

Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.