Rent vs. Own

[Frank[_11_]]

Since this is an aircraft owners newsgroup, that means it's the perfect place to ask about the costs associated with owning an airplane vs. renting.

Since I haven't started my private pilot lessons, I'm not familiar with all of the expenses associated with owning an aircraft. I have listed below a brief list of likely expenses (I think) and I asking for feedback on it.

I do understand that costs for each item can vary greatly from place to place and according to many factors, but I think this is a good start. I am imagining the purchase of a Cessna 172 with a couple of private pilot buddies and I came up with this:

1) Storage (what is the price difference between hangar and tie down?)
2) Insurance for plane
3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be serviced...and approximately how much?)
4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual "average" cost for problems?)

Can you give me a basic idea?

[John[_13_]]

Frank;
Spend a few moments googling Cost of Airplane ownership and you get all the info you need. No use retyping the same things.
"Frank" > wrote in message . ..
Since this is an aircraft owners newsgroup, that means it's the perfect place to ask about the costs associated with owning an airplane vs. renting.

Since I haven't started my private pilot lessons, I'm not familiar with all of the expenses associated with owning an aircraft. I have listed below a brief list of likely expenses (I think) and I asking for feedback on it.

I do understand that costs for each item can vary greatly from place to place and according to many factors, but I think this is a good start. I am imagining the purchase of a Cessna 172 with a couple of private pilot buddies and I came up with this:

1) Storage (what is the price difference between hangar and tie down?)
2) Insurance for plane
3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be serviced...and approximately how much?)
4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual "average" cost for problems?)

Can you give me a basic idea?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 11, 8:05*pm, "Frank" > wrote:

> 3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be serviced....and approximately how much?)
> 4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual "average" cost for problems?)

Nope, no average. You really cannot predict what you will pay for
maintenance. However, the cost of ownership will typically be higher
for an owner who flys less than 200 hrs/yr. The FBO is averaging the
cost of the plane over more pilots.

-Robert

[Kyle Boatright]

These costs vary tremendously by location. At an underused, rural field, hangar rental may be $50/mo. At an overcrowded urban field, the same hangar may be $600/mo. Same thing for maintenance costs. You would do well to go to your local field and ask these questions to pilots with aircraft similar to what you propose to purchase.
"Frank" > wrote in message . ..
Since this is an aircraft owners newsgroup, that means it's the perfect place to ask about the costs associated with owning an airplane vs. renting.

Since I haven't started my private pilot lessons, I'm not familiar with all of the expenses associated with owning an aircraft. I have listed below a brief list of likely expenses (I think) and I asking for feedback on it.

I do understand that costs for each item can vary greatly from place to place and according to many factors, but I think this is a good start. I am imagining the purchase of a Cessna 172 with a couple of private pilot buddies and I came up with this:

1) Storage (what is the price difference between hangar and tie down?)
2) Insurance for plane
3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be serviced...and approximately how much?)
4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual "average" cost for problems?)

Can you give me a basic idea?

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 23:05:20 -0500, "Frank" > wrote:

>Since this is an aircraft owners newsgroup, that means it's the perfect place to ask about the costs associated with owning an airplane vs. renting.
>
>Since I haven't started my private pilot lessons, I'm not familiar with all of the expenses associated with owning an aircraft. I have listed below a brief list of likely expenses (I think) and I asking for feedback on it.
>
>I do understand that costs for each item can vary greatly from place to place and according to many factors, but I think this is a good start. I am imagining the purchase of a Cessna 172 with a couple of private pilot buddies and I came up with this:
>
>1) Storage (what is the price difference between hangar and tie down?)
>2) Insurance for plane
>3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be serviced...and approximately how much?)
>4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual "average" cost for problems?)
>
>Can you give me a basic idea?

Costs vary all over the country.

At KASH, a tiedown might be $400-$600/year, depending on amenities
(dirt/paved/electricity at tiedown are the variables) vs. $450-$750/month
for hangar space.

At KEPM, a tiedown is free, and if you want a hangar you can build one <g>!

Maintenance costs vary all over the place, even with the same a/c. I just
had a "no complications" annual on my Mooney (more complicated than a C172)
which was $7,000 (with no deferred items). But one year I needed to have
an engine overhaul (crack in the case) and that added about $18,000 to the
bill.

Probably flying somewhere between 150-200 hrs/year will be the breakeven
point financially for ownership/renting. But there is something very
satisfying about knowing you are the only one flying the a/c; being able to
leave "stuff" in it; having everything in the airplane the same as when you
left it, etc.
--ron

[Marco Leon[_5_]]

I have a Warrior which is similar in many respects to a Cessna 172. I live
in the NY Metro area so adjust your estimates for your local area
accordingly

>1) Storage (what is the price difference between hangar and tie down?)
Tiedown for me is $105/month going to $140 soon. Hangars have a 9-year
waiting list at $550/month (no heat or electricity)

>2) Insurance for plane
About $1300 smooth and $950 with limits

>3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be
>serviced...and approximately how much?)
Annual is about $1200 including minor fixes

>4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual
>"average" cost for problems?)
I wind up spending under $1000 a year sometimes more sometimes less.

I have a spreadsheet that can calculate the hourly costs with adjustments
for multiple partners. I can email it to you if you're interested. However,
be aware that the results may be eye-opening.

Marco



"Frank" > wrote in message
. ..
Since this is an aircraft owners newsgroup, that means it's the perfect
place to ask about the costs associated with owning an airplane vs. renting.

Since I haven't started my private pilot lessons, I'm not familiar with all
of the expenses associated with owning an aircraft. I have listed below a
brief list of likely expenses (I think) and I asking for feedback on it.

I do understand that costs for each item can vary greatly from place to
place and according to many factors, but I think this is a good start. I am
imagining the purchase of a Cessna 172 with a couple of private pilot
buddies and I came up with this:

1) Storage (what is the price difference between hangar and tie down?)
2) Insurance for plane
3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be
serviced...and approximately how much?)
4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual
"average" cost for problems?)

Can you give me a basic idea?

[John Kunkel]

"Frank" > wrote in message . ..
If it flies, floats, or ****s; it's always cheaper to rent than to buy

[Marco Leon[_5_]]

"John Kunkel" > wrote in message
...

> If it flies, floats, or ****s; it's always cheaper to rent than to buy

Actually, with a total of two partners in my Warrior flying at 50 hour/year
each, it works out to be cheaper to own than to rent. And not by a small
amount either--about $30/hour cheaper.

Marco

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

Marco Leon wrote:
> "John Kunkel" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> If it flies, floats, or ****s; it's always cheaper to rent than to buy
>
> Actually, with a total of two partners in my Warrior flying at 50 hour/year
> each, it works out to be cheaper to own than to rent. And not by a small
> amount either--about $30/hour cheaper.
>
> Marco
>
>

The same would be true for boats and women as well.

[Ross[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Feb 11, 8:05 pm, "Frank" > wrote:
>
>
>>3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be serviced...and approximately how much?)
>>4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual "average" cost for problems?)
>
>
> Nope, no average. You really cannot predict what you will pay for
> maintenance. However, the cost of ownership will typically be higher
> for an owner who flys less than 200 hrs/yr. The FBO is averaging the
> cost of the plane over more pilots.
>
> -Robert
>

But the one thing you cannot put a price on it being able to walk out to
you airplane and fly it after a week of bad weather and there is no one
in line in front of you. The plane is exactly as you left it and not the
prior renter. The condition of the plane is known to you because you
assisted the A&P/IA in its annual and any repairs that come along. I fly
about 60 to 70 hours a year and I know I am paying more than renting.
But I would not trade this for anything.

Ross
C-172F 180 hp
KSWI

[mbremer216]

Time was...when you owned any of the three you at least know where they have been, but teh times they are a changin'
"John Kunkel" > wrote in message ...

"Frank" > wrote in message . ..
If it flies, floats, or ****s; it's always cheaper to rent than to buy

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Gig 601XL Builder wrote:
> Marco Leon wrote:
>> "John Kunkel" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> If it flies, floats, or ****s; it's always cheaper to rent than to buy
>>
>> Actually, with a total of two partners in my Warrior flying at 50
>> hour/year each, it works out to be cheaper to own than to rent. And
>> not by a small amount either--about $30/hour cheaper.
>>
>> Marco
>>
>>
>
> The same would be true for boats and women as well.


Women cost the same no matter how many guys are involved. <G>

[RST Engineering]

I usually do this for my math class but haven't taught math for a while so
lets see if I can do this from memory.

Women cost you time and money, or in mathematical form:

Woman = time * money

But we know that time is money, so time = money

Thus

Woman = money * money

Or

Woman = money ^ 2

But we know that money is the root of all evil, so

money = sqrt (evil)

So

Woman = sqrt (evil) ^2

Proving what we all know that

Woman = evil




>
> Women cost the same no matter how many guys are involved. <G>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 12, 5:09*pm, Ross > wrote:

> But the one thing you cannot put a price on it being able to walk out to
> you airplane and fly it after a week of bad weather and there is no one
> in line in front of you. The plane is exactly as you left it and not the
> prior renter. The condition of the plane is known to you because you
> assisted the A&P/IA in its annual and any repairs that come along. I fly
> about 60 to 70 hours a year and I know I am paying more than renting.
> But I would not trade this for anything.

As well as launching IFR with the family for a trip. How many rental
planes out there would anyone here be comfortable going into the soup
with? In Sacramento there is one place that rents a 2005 C-182T.
That's about the only rentaly plane I would do anything more than a
few approaches in if I didn't have my Mooney.

Plus, you can get the plane you want. FBOs don't have any reason to
buy anything other than 172's, 182's, etc. They want training planes.
If you want an Aeronca, Swift, or truely high performance cross
country plane, you need to purchase.

-robert

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 12, 12:01*pm, "Marco Leon" >
wrote:
> "John Kunkel" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > If it flies, floats, or ****s; it's always cheaper to rent than to buy
>
> Actually, with a total of two partners in my Warrior flying at 50 hour/year
> each, it works out to be cheaper to own than to rent. And not by a small
> amount either--about $30/hour cheaper.

How long have you been in the partnership? After that first $10,000
annual things start to look different.

-Robert

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

RST Engineering wrote:
> I usually do this for my math class but haven't taught math for a while so
> lets see if I can do this from memory.
>
> Women cost you time and money, or in mathematical form:
>
> Woman = time * money
>

Cute.

You should market a "woman" calculator, ala an electronic e6b.

[Marco Leon[_5_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
On Feb 12, 12:01 pm, "Marco Leon" >
>
> Actually, with a total of two partners in my Warrior flying at 50
> hour/year
> each, it works out to be cheaper to own than to rent. And not by a small
> amount either--about $30/hour cheaper.

How long have you been in the partnership? After that first $10,000
annual things start to look different.

I was in the plane by myself in the beginning so I footed the $4K initial
annual. I've been in the partnership for about six years.

Marco

[Mike Spera]

>>
>
> But the one thing you cannot put a price on it being able to walk out to
> you airplane and fly it after a week of bad weather and there is no one
> in line in front of you. The plane is exactly as you left it and not the
> prior renter. The condition of the plane is known to you because you
> assisted the A&P/IA in its annual and any repairs that come along. I fly
> about 60 to 70 hours a year and I know I am paying more than renting.
> But I would not trade this for anything.
>


Another thing that is difficult to value is tossing the keys at the FBO
person and saying "it's broke, give me another one" when the rental is
not up to snuff. The rentals are inspected every 100 hours and whatever
it costs to make it airworthy ain't your problem. The thing likely has
fuel in it. And it probably just flew around a bit so it is likely to
keep doing so when you get in it.

As an owner, I would find it hard to start renting. Too old and too
fussy. But the cost and aggravation is quite a bit higher as many have
already stated. To some this is a wonderful mental and financial
challenge. To others, it is a pain in the ass. After 14 years of
ownership, I have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Good Luck,
Mike

[xyzzy]

On Feb 13, 8:15 pm, Mike Spera > wrote:
> > But the one thing you cannot put a price on it being able to walk out to
> > you airplane and fly it after a week of bad weather and there is no one
> > in line in front of you. The plane is exactly as you left it and not the
> > prior renter. The condition of the plane is known to you because you
> > assisted the A&P/IA in its annual and any repairs that come along. I fly
> > about 60 to 70 hours a year and I know I am paying more than renting.
> > But I would not trade this for anything.
>
> Another thing that is difficult to value is tossing the keys at the FBO
> person and saying "it's broke, give me another one" when the rental is
> not up to snuff. The rentals are inspected every 100 hours and whatever
> it costs to make it airworthy ain't your problem. The thing likely has
> fuel in it. And it probably just flew around a bit so it is likely to
> keep doing so when you get in it.
>
> As an owner, I would find it hard to start renting. Too old and too
> fussy. But the cost and aggravation is quite a bit higher as many have
> already stated. To some this is a wonderful mental and financial
> challenge. To others, it is a pain in the ass. After 14 years of
> ownership, I have gone from one end of the spectrum to the other.
>
> Good Luck,
> Mike

Both Mike's and Robert's post show why, if you are fortunate to have a
good club in your area, that's the way to go.

My club has 3 152's, 2 172's, 2 Warriors, and (for Robert :) 2 Mooneys
on the line.

We have a maintanence program run by an A&P and volunteers under his
supervision.

You can pretty much control your costs by how much you fly in a given
month -- the only fixed cost is dues.

It really is the best compromise of both.

[WJRFlyBoy]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 15:01:43 -0500, Marco Leon wrote:

> "John Kunkel" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> If it flies, floats, or ****s; it's always cheaper to rent than to buy
>
> Actually, with a total of two partners in my Warrior flying at 50 hour/year
> each, it works out to be cheaper to own than to rent. And not by a small
> amount either--about $30/hour cheaper.
>
> Marco

http://www.dauntless-soft.com/products/Freebies/RentingVSOwning/
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> As an owner, I would find it hard to start renting. Too old and too fussy.
> But the cost and aggravation is quite a bit higher as many have already
> stated. To some this is a wonderful mental and financial challenge. To
> others, it is a pain in the ass. After 14 years of ownership, I have gone
> from one end of the spectrum to the other.

Well said, Mike. As time goes on, I'm starting to see your points.

Example: We've owned planes for ten years now. I do a fair amount of my
own maintenance, and have participated in every annual. I've laid on my
back in puddles of gas and oil, unscrewing access panel and other screws,
I've stood on my head under the panel, poking at loose wires. I've
hand-packed bearings with grease, learned a lot, got really dirty, and had
great fun.

Except now I'm finding these things cause me a lot more pain than they used
to. I'm ten years older, and I grunt and groan and twitch as I contort
myself into small spaces, and I sure don't jump off the front of the wing
anymore. Ibuprofen is my friend, and there were times, during this annual,
that it just wasn't fun anymore.

Flying with my son has re-opened my eyes to the ease of flying rental
planes. Yesterday, my 17 year old son (and new pilot) spent a few hours in
the shop, helping with the annual. I showed him how to take the nose wheel
off the plane, how to repack the wheel bearings, and lots of other little
stuff. My A&P walked him through some other items, and I'm sure he learned
a lot. Then we went over to the FBO to rent the 150 so he could do a few
turns around the pattern.

It was so simple! The line guys even asked him if he'd like the plane put
in the big hangar, so he could preflight indoors! The fuel was topped off
for him, and everything was ship-shape, without lifting a finger. What a
contrast to the effort we had put into our own plane that morning!

Still, we had to haul all of our stuff -- headphones, log books, charts,
etc. That was a pain. And the plane had just been flown by...whom? Was
it landed hard? Rolled inverted on its last flight? Is a control cable
frayed? How many hours are on the engine?

A jillion things that I never worry about in Atlas went through my head as
we rolled out to the runway in that rental... Suddenly the grease under my
fingernails seemed worth it, again.

To the OP: If you can afford it, do it. Owning your own plane is wonderful.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-02-16, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> To the OP: If you can afford it, do it. Owning your own plane is wonderful.

I'm coming at this from the other direction. I've always rented, but I'm
seriously considering buying. Not only that, I'm considering buying a new
aircraft.

Everything Jay said is true: you never know what the real, complete
condition of the airplane is if you rent. You can't leave your stuff in it.
You might well have to clean up after the last guy. It might not even be
there at the appointed time, if the previous renter couldn't get it back
home in time.

Owning is a daunting prospect for me. I'm looking at spending $130-160K. The
note, plus hangar rent, plus maintenance, plus fuel, plus lots of other
stuff, is going to be a big chunk of money every month. I'm finally in a
position where I can afford it, thankfully. Offsetting the big ticket is
that I'll fly a new aircraft for the first time in my life (I last flew
before Cessna started building piston singles again), and that I'll get to
have the plane the way I want it (including a specific N-number, N55ZC,
without having to pay for a paint job).

If it weren't for medical issues, I'd be looking at an AA-5B instead of a
Zodiac or Sierra. The note would be smaller, but the maintenance would
probably be higher, and I'd probably have to sink a fair amount of money
into upgrades and repairs. Even so, I'd still buy. The advantages are too
attractive to me.

It probably doesn't make financial sense. As Gordon Baxter put it, "How much
does it take to own an airplane? Everything you've got." There's an
intangible feeling there that, to me, is worth it.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

[Kobra]

"Frank" > wrote in message . ..
Since this is an aircraft owners newsgroup, that means it's the perfect place to ask about the costs associated with owning an airplane vs. renting.

Since I haven't started my private pilot lessons, I'm not familiar with all of the expenses associated with owning an aircraft. I have listed below a brief list of likely expenses (I think) and I asking for feedback on it.

I do understand that costs for each item can vary greatly from place to place and according to many factors, but I think this is a good start. I am imagining the purchase of a Cessna 172 with a couple of private pilot buddies and I came up with this:

1) Storage (what is the price difference between hangar and tie down?)
2) Insurance for plane
3) Normal service for plane (how often does the plane have to be serviced...and approximately how much?)
4) Repairs (I understand this is unpredictable...is their an annual "average" cost for problems?)

Can you give me a basic idea?

Fixed Costs:
1.. Loan (Principle and Interest) 755.00 That's 65,000.00 for 10 years at 7% YMMV
2.. Storage (75.00 per month for a Tie-Down and 300 to 700 for a hangar)
3.. Insurance (about 1200.00 per year or 100 per month)
4.. Annual (900.00 per year or 75 per month, annual ONLY)
Right there it will cost you $1,005.00 without EVER leaving the ground!

Variable Costs:

1.. Fuel @ 4.65 a gallon and burning 8.5 GPH is 39.53 per hour.
2.. Oil at 5.50 per quart and buring 1 qt every 7 hours is 0.79 per hour.
3.. Engine Amortization (this depends on the engine OH cost and the amount of time on the engine at purchase) Let's assume a mid-time engine. 20,000 cost for OH, 1000 hours TT on engine and 2000 hour TBO. Therefore: 20.00 per hour.
4.. Oil Change every 50 hours. Cost 100 bucks. So 2.00 per hour.
5.. Unforseen Maintenance. This is a LUCK thing and how much you are willing to look the other way and put up with small to medium unpressing issues versus MUST do issues. I put 30.00 per hour away and I'm in the red by 3,000.00 and I've jacked my wallet at least 10,000.00 in six years for extra funding...and I'm STILL 3000 under-water!! I'd put about 40.00 per hour aside if you want it safe and right.
So about 102.32 per hour...

So...you pay 1,005.00 per month membership fees to your own flying club and that buys you the price of 102.32 per hour to fly the plane.

The fixed cost will drop for each partner, but the variable costs will always be about the same. The maintenance might drop in price per hour if the plane flys a lot because there will be more flying between problems, however, probably there will be more problems the more it flys.

Good luck, Kobra

[Kobra]

Oh...I almost forgot....

Pitot static check every 2 years at 250.00 per.

Transponder check every 2 years at 250.00 per

New ELT every two years at 100.00

Amortization for new paint (let's assume new paint costs 9,000 and has to be
done every 15 years, let's assume the paint is 7.5 years old) therefore
100.00 per month for new paint.

Same deal for a new interior...100.00 per month.

And as Sonny and Cher aways said, "...and the beat goes on."

Kobra

[Ross]

Kobra wrote:
> Oh...I almost forgot....
>
> Pitot static check every 2 years at 250.00 per.
>
> Transponder check every 2 years at 250.00 per
>
> New ELT every two years at 100.00
>
> Amortization for new paint (let's assume new paint costs 9,000 and has to be
> done every 15 years, let's assume the paint is 7.5 years old) therefore
> 100.00 per month for new paint.
>
> Same deal for a new interior...100.00 per month.
>
> And as Sonny and Cher aways said, "...and the beat goes on."
>
> Kobra
>
>

My pitot static / transponder is done together for $250.00. ELT battery
used to be $30.00 and just got a new one that uses Duracell.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Ray Andraka]

Kobra wrote:
> Oh...I almost forgot....
>
> Pitot static check every 2 years at 250.00 per.
>
> Transponder check every 2 years at 250.00 per
>
> New ELT every two years at 100.00
>
> Amortization for new paint (let's assume new paint costs 9,000 and has to be
> done every 15 years, let's assume the paint is 7.5 years old) therefore
> 100.00 per month for new paint.
>
> Same deal for a new interior...100.00 per month.
>
> And as Sonny and Cher aways said, "...and the beat goes on."
>
> Kobra
>
>

My pitot/static and transponder checks get done together, and it has
always been less than $250 for both combined. ELT batteries for my ELT
(Narco ELT-10) run about $35. Those are all small expenses relatively
speaking. The big things are hangar rent, insurance, annual inpsection,
and repairs.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Feb 18, 8:11*pm, "Kobra" > wrote:
> Oh...I almost forgot....
>
> Pitot static check every 2 years at 250.00 per.
>
> Transponder check every 2 years at 250.00 per


I also pay $250 but that's for a full pitot/static test. If you are
just VFR you can opt for only the transponder encoder test which
should be about 1/2 that price.

-Robert