Garmin 430 rquestion- does the approach always have to be activated via "activate approach"?

[Terence Wilson]

One annoyance of the 430 is that activating an approach will
immediately set a course for the selected IAF (assuming RV not
selected). What I would like to do is append the approach to my
current flightplan so that I can transition en route to the approach
without further programming. But I'm concerned that a loaded,
unactivated approach will cause the 430 not to switch to approach
senstivity. I tried this in the simulator and found that it seems to
work fine, the sensitivity changes 2nm from the FAF and all is well;
but I'm hesistant to start using the method in the A/C.
Can someone else verify that it is ok? What method do you use?

[Stan Prevost]

So you are f lying along, direct KABC. You have loaded an approach and
selected an IAF. How do you expect the box to know when to switch from
having the TO Waypoint being the airport to having it be the IAF?

Activating a loaded approach is really a trivial action. PROC, ENTER. Not
exactly programming.






"Terence Wilson" > wrote in message
...
> One annoyance of the 430 is that activating an approach will
> immediately set a course for the selected IAF (assuming RV not
> selected). What I would like to do is append the approach to my
> current flightplan so that I can transition en route to the approach
> without further programming. But I'm concerned that a loaded,
> unactivated approach will cause the 430 not to switch to approach
> senstivity. I tried this in the simulator and found that it seems to
> work fine, the sensitivity changes 2nm from the FAF and all is well;
> but I'm hesistant to start using the method in the A/C.
> Can someone else verify that it is ok? What method do you use?

[Sam Spade]

Terence Wilson wrote:
> One annoyance of the 430 is that activating an approach will
> immediately set a course for the selected IAF (assuming RV not
> selected). What I would like to do is append the approach to my
> current flightplan so that I can transition en route to the approach
> without further programming. But I'm concerned that a loaded,
> unactivated approach will cause the 430 not to switch to approach
> senstivity. I tried this in the simulator and found that it seems to
> work fine, the sensitivity changes 2nm from the FAF and all is well;
> but I'm hesistant to start using the method in the A/C.
> Can someone else verify that it is ok? What method do you use?

You don't quite understand the activate approach function. It should
seldom be used. It's primary purpose is for a "pop up" VFR operation to
go from VFR directly to an IAF and begin a full approach.

The normal procedure is to load the approach. It will always activate
on its own two miles prior to the FAF.

[SimGuy]

On Fri, 15 Feb 2008 23:04:53 -0600, "Stan Prevost"
> wrote:

>So you are f lying along, direct KABC. You have loaded an approach and
>selected an IAF. How do you expect the box to know when to switch from
>having the TO Waypoint being the airport to having it be the IAF?
>
>Activating a loaded approach is really a trivial action. PROC, ENTER. Not
>exactly programming.

The point is this- loading the approach makes the IAF the active
waypoint, which I may or may not want.

[Terence Wilson]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 06:38:42 -0800, Sam Spade >
wrote:

>Terence Wilson wrote:
>> One annoyance of the 430 is that activating an approach will
>> immediately set a course for the selected IAF (assuming RV not
>> selected). What I would like to do is append the approach to my
>> current flightplan so that I can transition en route to the approach
>> without further programming. But I'm concerned that a loaded,
>> unactivated approach will cause the 430 not to switch to approach
>> senstivity. I tried this in the simulator and found that it seems to
>> work fine, the sensitivity changes 2nm from the FAF and all is well;
>> but I'm hesistant to start using the method in the A/C.
>> Can someone else verify that it is ok? What method do you use?
>
>You don't quite understand the activate approach function. It should
>seldom be used. It's primary purpose is for a "pop up" VFR operation to
>go from VFR directly to an IAF and begin a full approach.
>
>The normal procedure is to load the approach. It will always activate
>on its own two miles prior to the FAF.

OK thanks. That was the source of my confusion. I wasn't sure whether
there was something magic about activation. It sounds like the only
purpose of activation is to set the IAF as the active waypoint.
Thanks.

[Mitty]

On 2/16/2008 10:27 AM, SimGuy wrote the following:
>
> The point is this- loading the approach makes the IAF the active
> waypoint, which I may or may not want.

No, it doesn't.

[Thomas Borchert]

Terence,

> It sounds like the only
> purpose of activation is to set the IAF as the active waypoint.
>

Hmm. You have me very confused now. What's wrong with the IAF, if
that's where the full approach starts (you mentioned no RV)?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Terence Wilson]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 10:47:11 -0600, Mitty > wrote:

>On 2/16/2008 10:27 AM, SimGuy wrote the following:
>>
>> The point is this- loading the approach makes the IAF the active
>> waypoint, which I may or may not want.
>
>No, it doesn't.

Sorry, I meant to say "activating".

[Terence Wilson]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:49:42 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>Terence,
>
>> It sounds like the only
>> purpose of activation is to set the IAF as the active waypoint.
>>
>
>Hmm. You have me very confused now. What's wrong with the IAF, if
>that's where the full approach starts (you mentioned no RV)?
>
>--
>Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Well suppose I am enroute and approaching the SGD VOR. At this point I
am getting close to my destination and want to setup the KCCR VOR
approach which starts at the CCR IAF. If I load and activate the
approach a megenta line will immediately be drawn from my present
position to CCR. Want I want is the route SGD, CCR ... KCCR.

[Thomas Borchert]

Terence,

> Well suppose I am enroute and approaching the SGD VOR. At this point I
> am getting close to my destination and want to setup the KCCR VOR
> approach which starts at the CCR IAF. If I load and activate the
> approach a megenta line will immediately be drawn from my present
> position to CCR. Want I want is the route SGD, CCR ... KCCR.
>

I see. In that case, what's wrong with loading the procedure and then
waiting with activation until passing SGD.

Also, upon rereading the 430 manual I noticed that activating
vectors-to-final will always get you to the FAF. I could find no mention
of the automatic activation mentioned by someone. However, automatic CDI
switching (to VLOC) will only happen on an activated procedure, it
seems.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Sam Spade]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Terence,
>
>
>>Well suppose I am enroute and approaching the SGD VOR. At this point I
>>am getting close to my destination and want to setup the KCCR VOR
>>approach which starts at the CCR IAF. If I load and activate the
>>approach a megenta line will immediately be drawn from my present
>>position to CCR. Want I want is the route SGD, CCR ... KCCR.
>>
>
>
> I see. In that case, what's wrong with loading the procedure and then
> waiting with activation until passing SGD.
>
> Also, upon rereading the 430 manual I noticed that activating
> vectors-to-final will always get you to the FAF. I could find no mention
> of the automatic activation mentioned by someone. However, automatic CDI
> switching (to VLOC) will only happen on an activated procedure, it
> seems.
>
VLOC is only for ILS and LOC, not RNAV

[Mark Hansen]

On 02/16/08 10:46, Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Terence,
>
>> Well suppose I am enroute and approaching the SGD VOR. At this point I
>> am getting close to my destination and want to setup the KCCR VOR
>> approach which starts at the CCR IAF. If I load and activate the
>> approach a megenta line will immediately be drawn from my present
>> position to CCR. Want I want is the route SGD, CCR ... KCCR.
>>
>
> I see. In that case, what's wrong with loading the procedure and then
> waiting with activation until passing SGD.
>
> Also, upon rereading the 430 manual I noticed that activating
> vectors-to-final will always get you to the FAF. I could find no mention
> of the automatic activation mentioned by someone. However, automatic CDI
> switching (to VLOC) will only happen on an activated procedure, it
> seems.

... and the localizer frequency must be in the active window -FYI.


--
Mark Hansen, PP-ASEL, Instrument Airplane, USUA Ultralight Pilot
Cal Aggie Flying Farmers
Sacramento, CA

[Thomas Borchert]

Sam,

> VLOC is only for ILS and LOC, not RNAV
>

I know. However, procedure activation is treated as standard in the
manual, contrary to what you alluded to. There is no mention of
"automatic activation" I could find. Could you kindly point me to it?


--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Terence Wilson]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 19:46:19 +0100, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>Terence,
>
>> Well suppose I am enroute and approaching the SGD VOR. At this point I
>> am getting close to my destination and want to setup the KCCR VOR
>> approach which starts at the CCR IAF. If I load and activate the
>> approach a megenta line will immediately be drawn from my present
>> position to CCR. Want I want is the route SGD, CCR ... KCCR.
>>
>
>I see. In that case, what's wrong with loading the procedure and then
>waiting with activation until passing SGD.

Not really biggie, but it seems redundant. Why am I activating? What
does it do? I just passed SGD and I'm en route to CCR with a nice
magenta line plotted between the two. Activating the approach will
redraw a magenta line from my current position to CCR.

As I said, I'm confused about what "activate" actually does. Is it
just a shortcut to get me on the approach or does it put the 430 into
some sort of magical approach mode? Or to put it another way, if I
load but don't activate, am I missing something?


>
>Also, upon rereading the 430 manual I noticed that activating
>vectors-to-final will always get you to the FAF.

One of the annoyances of VTF is that it erases all the waypoints
before the FAF. I'm not that experienced, but when ATC has given me
vectors, it's usually to a fix before the FAF. The bottom line is I
don't use VTF, it's safer to pick an IAF, and then activate the
appropriate leg manually once ATC has issued vectors onto the
published approach.


> I could find no mention
>of the automatic activation mentioned by someone. However, automatic CDI
>switching (to VLOC) will only happen on an activated procedure, it
>seems.

I'll have to read about that. I wasn't aware that the unit
automatically switches from VLOC to GPS or vice versa.

[Thomas Borchert]

Mark,

> ... and the localizer frequency must be in the active window -FYI.
>

Yep, but the unit will remind you to put it there 3 (?) miles from the
FAF.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Terence,

> I wasn't aware that the unit
> automatically switches from VLOC to GPS or vice versa.
>

Me neither ;-)

It switches from GPS to VLOC only, on the condition that the VLOC
frequency is active, once you are kind of established on the final
approach course. Also, it switches "gradually", so as to not make the
autopilot go berserk.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Sam Spade]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Sam,
>
>
>>VLOC is only for ILS and LOC, not RNAV
>>
>
>
> I know. However, procedure activation is treated as standard in the
> manual, contrary to what you alluded to. There is no mention of
> "automatic activation" I could find. Could you kindly point me to it?
>
>
No, there is no approach activation for ILS or LOC. Approach
activation, as defined for *RNAV* occurs 2 miles from the FAF. When you
select a LOC or ILS, you instead receive an advisory message cautioning
you that RNAV is for monitoring only.

[Thomas Borchert]

Sam,

> When you
> select a LOC or ILS, you instead receive an advisory message cautioning
> you that RNAV is for monitoring only.
>

Yes, but you can (and should, per the manual) activate them. So the
question remains, what exactly does that do? In my experience, it starts
both sequencing of the waypoints in the procedure and the change in CDI
sensitivity. And from my experience, same goes for an RNAV approach. The
430 just continues to fly the original flightplan if you don't make it fly
the approach - by activating it.



--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Sam Spade]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Sam,
>
>
>>When you
>>select a LOC or ILS, you instead receive an advisory message cautioning
>>you that RNAV is for monitoring only.
>>
>
>
> Yes, but you can (and should, per the manual) activate them. So the
> question remains, what exactly does that do? In my experience, it starts
> both sequencing of the waypoints in the procedure and the change in CDI
> sensitivity. And from my experience, same goes for an RNAV approach. The
> 430 just continues to fly the original flightplan if you don't make it fly
> the approach - by activating it.
>
>
>
I agree that the manual says to activate a previously loaded approach.
But, it is overkill and unnecessary.

En route to terminal sensitivity occurs when passing within 30 miles of
the airport reference approach, whether or not an approach is loaded.,
*provided* the destination airport is the final waypoing in the flight plan.

Once flying an approach it will activate (approach sensitivity and
approach RAIM) when reasonably on course and passing inbound 2 miles
prior to the FAF.

You can hit the "activate approach" option all day long once on an
approach flight plan and inside the IAF, and nothing will happen until
you reach 2 miles from the FAF. And, the same will happen at 2 miles
from the FAF without ever pressing the "activate approach" option.

Try it in the trainer on any RNAV (GPS) IAP (or overlay IAP).

[Terence Wilson]

On Sat, 16 Feb 2008 14:17:02 -0800, Sam Spade >
wrote:


>I agree that the manual says to activate a previously loaded approach.
>But, it is overkill and unnecessary.
>
>En route to terminal sensitivity occurs when passing within 30 miles of
>the airport reference approach, whether or not an approach is loaded.,
>*provided* the destination airport is the final waypoing in the flight plan.
>
>Once flying an approach it will activate (approach sensitivity and
>approach RAIM) when reasonably on course and passing inbound 2 miles
>prior to the FAF.
>
>You can hit the "activate approach" option all day long once on an
>approach flight plan and inside the IAF, and nothing will happen until
>you reach 2 miles from the FAF. And, the same will happen at 2 miles
>from the FAF without ever pressing the "activate approach" option.
>
>Try it in the trainer on any RNAV (GPS) IAP (or overlay IAP).


Thanks Sam. Your response agrees with my simulator observations and
clears up my confusion.

[Sam Spade]

John Collins wrote:

>
> When an approach is loaded, it is appended to the flight plan after the
> destination airport. As stated earlier, the waypoints in the original flight
> plan will sequence normally until the destination airport is reached, at
> which time the 430 will navigate direct to the IAF waypoint and
> automatically "activate" the approach sequence.

To cut to the chase, those of us familiar with using FMSes know to clear
the destination airport from the flight plan once the approach is
loaded. In a full-press FMS, this is known as a route-discontinuity.
And, clearing that discontinuity in a full-press FMS or a Garmin panel
mount will get it all to work as a flight plan with continuity.

[Sam Spade]

John Collins wrote:
> Sam, This is
> necessary when the controller clears the pilot direct-to an IF (Intermediate
> Fix) that is not an IAF.

When is an IF also an IAF and what do you do then?

[Stan Prevost]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> John Collins wrote:
>
>>
>> When an approach is loaded, it is appended to the flight plan after the
>> destination airport. As stated earlier, the waypoints in the original
>> flight plan will sequence normally until the destination airport is
>> reached, at which time the 430 will navigate direct to the IAF waypoint
>> and automatically "activate" the approach sequence.
>
> To cut to the chase, those of us familiar with using FMSes know to clear
> the destination airport from the flight plan once the approach is loaded.
> In a full-press FMS, this is known as a route-discontinuity. And, clearing
> that discontinuity in a full-press FMS or a Garmin panel mount will get it
> all to work as a flight plan with continuity.

On a GNS430, activating the loaded approach is simpler. PROC, ENTER.

[Thomas Borchert]

Sam,

> To cut to the chase, those of us familiar with using FMSes know to clear
> the destination airport from the flight plan once the approach is
> loaded.
>

Ah, now I see. As STan says, activating is easier on the 430, IMHO.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

John,

Thanks, that was just my understanding, too.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
>
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> John Collins wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> When an approach is loaded, it is appended to the flight plan after
>>> the destination airport. As stated earlier, the waypoints in the
>>> original flight plan will sequence normally until the destination
>>> airport is reached, at which time the 430 will navigate direct to the
>>> IAF waypoint and automatically "activate" the approach sequence.
>>
>>
>> To cut to the chase, those of us familiar with using FMSes know to
>> clear the destination airport from the flight plan once the approach
>> is loaded. In a full-press FMS, this is known as a
>> route-discontinuity. And, clearing that discontinuity in a full-press
>> FMS or a Garmin panel mount will get it all to work as a flight plan
>> with continuity.
>
>
> On a GNS430, activating the loaded approach is simpler. PROC, ENTER.
>
>
Like many things, there is more than one way to skin the cat with a Garmin.

[Sam Spade]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Sam,
>
>
>>To cut to the chase, those of us familiar with using FMSes know to clear
>>the destination airport from the flight plan once the approach is
>>loaded.
>>
>
>
> Ah, now I see. As STan says, activating is easier on the 430, IMHO.
>
Could be. Some shave with one hand, some with the left, others with
both. ;-)

[Sam Spade]

John Collins wrote:

> An Intermediate Fix may also be an Initial Approach Fix.
>
> A typical example is a T style approach, where both the right base and the
> left base ends are IAFs and the top center of the T is an IF, but not an
> IAF. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/05726R5.PDF
>
> There are numerous examples of the top center being both an IF and an IAF.
> See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/05683R28.PDF
>
> When an IF is also an IAF, you can select the IF(IAF) in the select approach
> dialog.

Actually, it is only (and always) when it has a hold-in-lieu course
reversal.

Next question: If a controller clears you directly to an IF/IAF do you
always disregard the hold-in-lieu course reversal and go straight-in?

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
>
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> John Collins wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> When an approach is loaded, it is appended to the flight plan after
>>> the destination airport. As stated earlier, the waypoints in the
>>> original flight plan will sequence normally until the destination
>>> airport is reached, at which time the 430 will navigate direct to the
>>> IAF waypoint and automatically "activate" the approach sequence.
>>
>>
>> To cut to the chase, those of us familiar with using FMSes know to
>> clear the destination airport from the flight plan once the approach
>> is loaded. In a full-press FMS, this is known as a
>> route-discontinuity. And, clearing that discontinuity in a full-press
>> FMS or a Garmin panel mount will get it all to work as a flight plan
>> with continuity.
>
>
> On a GNS430, activating the loaded approach is simpler. PROC, ENTER.
>
>
I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected
removing the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight,
then everything sequences without pilot intervention.

[Mitty]

On 2/17/2008 8:57 AM, John Collins wrote the following:
> Regardless,
>
> The pilot should be prepared to fly direct to the non IAF type IF to join
> the approach.

Yes, and I'm not sure why this is such a big deal here. It's the same thing you
do on any reroute. Just add the IF to the flight plan and activate that leg.
It doesn't matter whether there is an approach farther down the list or not.

[Steven Barnes]

I believe the only time you can ignore a course reversal is:
* Timed approach from a fix
* Coming in on a segment labeled NoPT (such as the typical left or right IAF
on a standard "T" GPS approach)
* Vectors to Final.

Cleared direct to the IF/IAF doesn't necessarily mean you're getting
vectors. Maybe, maybe not. I've been cleared to an IF/IAF just to get me in
line farther out from the FAF. Shortly before getting to the IF/IAF, I'm
given the spiel of "x miles from FAF, maintain y until..." Thump the Vectors
to Final button OR just take the GPS out of OBS HOLD mode & on to the FAF
you go.

If I don't hear the controller tell me I'm getting vectors to final, I will
ask. If it turns out I'm not, I've got the full approach already up &
running.


"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> John Collins wrote:
>
> > An Intermediate Fix may also be an Initial Approach Fix.
> >
> > A typical example is a T style approach, where both the right base and
the
> > left base ends are IAFs and the top center of the T is an IF, but not an
> > IAF. See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/05726R5.PDF
> >
> > There are numerous examples of the top center being both an IF and an
IAF.
> > See http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/05683R28.PDF
> >
> > When an IF is also an IAF, you can select the IF(IAF) in the select
approach
> > dialog.
>
> Actually, it is only (and always) when it has a hold-in-lieu course
> reversal.
>
> Next question: If a controller clears you directly to an IF/IAF do you
> always disregard the hold-in-lieu course reversal and go straight-in?

[Sam Spade]

Steven Barnes wrote:
> I believe the only time you can ignore a course reversal is:
> * Timed approach from a fix
> * Coming in on a segment labeled NoPT (such as the typical left or right IAF
> on a standard "T" GPS approach)
> * Vectors to Final.
>
> Cleared direct to the IF/IAF doesn't necessarily mean you're getting
> vectors. Maybe, maybe not. I've been cleared to an IF/IAF just to get me in
> line farther out from the FAF. Shortly before getting to the IF/IAF, I'm
> given the spiel of "x miles from FAF, maintain y until..." Thump the Vectors
> to Final button OR just take the GPS out of OBS HOLD mode & on to the FAF
> you go.
>
> If I don't hear the controller tell me I'm getting vectors to final, I will
> ask. If it turns out I'm not, I've got the full approach already up &
> running.

You need to get up to date on this procedure. It became policy about
three AIMs back.

[Stan Prevost]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>>
>> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>> John Collins wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> When an approach is loaded, it is appended to the flight plan after the
>>>> destination airport. As stated earlier, the waypoints in the original
>>>> flight plan will sequence normally until the destination airport is
>>>> reached, at which time the 430 will navigate direct to the IAF waypoint
>>>> and automatically "activate" the approach sequence.
>>>
>>>
>>> To cut to the chase, those of us familiar with using FMSes know to clear
>>> the destination airport from the flight plan once the approach is
>>> loaded. In a full-press FMS, this is known as a route-discontinuity.
>>> And, clearing that discontinuity in a full-press FMS or a Garmin panel
>>> mount will get it all to work as a flight plan with continuity.
>>
>>
>> On a GNS430, activating the loaded approach is simpler. PROC, ENTER.
>>
>>
> I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected removing
> the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight, then
> everything sequences without pilot intervention.


FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR, ENTER to
confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.

vs

PROC, ENTER.

And if you have to change approaches, which sometimes happens, you can't
select a new one without a destination airport.

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:

> FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR, ENTER
> to confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.
>
> vs
>
> PROC, ENTER.

True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
supposed to be if I "activate."
>
> And if you have to change approaches, which sometimes happens, you can't
> select a new one without a destination airport.
>
It is rare to fly the full approach in a TRACON environment. But, if it
is a single approach in each direction, you will usually still know
early on. If it is a major airport then all bets are off, so I would
wait until the vectors begin, then do it your way, but with VTF.

However, if the airport has runway specific STARs, then there is another
level of complexity, which can easily overwhelm single-pilot operations.

[Stan Prevost]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>
>> FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR, ENTER to
>> confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.
>>
>> vs
>>
>> PROC, ENTER.
>
> True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
> easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
> supposed to be if I "activate."
>>
>> And if you have to change approaches, which sometimes happens, you can't
>> select a new one without a destination airport.
>>

John Collins informed me, and I confirmed on the sim, that if you delete the
destination airport waypoint from the flight plan, and then need to select a
different approach, the 430 will assume the former destination airport and
will allow you to select a new procedure at that airport.

> It is rare to fly the full approach in a TRACON environment. But, if it
> is a single approach in each direction, you will usually still know early
> on.

I don't find that it is rare to fly an RNAV approach from an IAF at a
satellite airport served by a TRACON (yes at the primary airport). VOR
approaches or others with PTs, yes, but not Basic T and TAA GPS approaches.
But it is not too uncommon for an airport or runway to be turned around
after you have been told what approach to expect.

[SimGuy]

On Sun, 17 Feb 2008 05:51:36 -0800, Sam Spade >
wrote:

>> On a GNS430, activating the loaded approach is simpler. PROC, ENTER.
>>
>>
>I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected
>removing the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight,
>then everything sequences without pilot intervention.

Exactly, seems simpler to me.

[Stan Prevost]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> Stan Prevost wrote:
>
>> FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR, ENTER to
>> confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.
>>
>> vs
>>
>> PROC, ENTER.
>
> True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
> easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
> supposed to be if I "activate."
>>

>
(and from another post)
>I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected removing
>the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight, then
>everything sequences without pilot intervention

Sam, I have reread your posts trying to make sure I understand your points.
First of all, I didn't know the Garmins would self-activate, so that is
something new I have learned from this thread. More on that later. I
understand that you prefer to perform a more complex task rather than a
two-button-task if you can move the task to a less busy period of the
flight. But the "without pilot intervention" part only happens if you were
already direct to the IAF at the time you deleted the airport waypoint, or
deleted the airport waypoint to make the navigator sequence to the IAF when
instructed to proceed direct to the IAF. Either way, it is the same result
as the simpler activation procedure performed at the same point in time. If
that is not true, then I am missing something in the scenario. Perhaps a
simple example would help.

As far as I can determine, the self-activation feature is not mentioned in
the Garmin manuals. I believe another poster said the same. Personally, I
am a bit uneasy about using undocumented "features" of software in critical
situations. For one thing, we don't really know what is happening and if it
has even been tested. Does it do the required RAIM predictions prior to the
FAF? How would you know, unless it fails? Does this "feature" work under
all conditions? Another thing, you don't know if the "feature" will still
exist, or work the same way, if the software is updated.

I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if they
approve using the navigator this way? Or the FAA?

Stan

[Mitty]

On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
<snip>
>
> I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
> they approve using the navigator this way?

Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support transferring me
to very knowledgeable people when I had something besides the usual RTFM
questions. My guess is that the manuals are the problem and that the behavior
is in the design spec.

[Stan Prevost]

Well, let me posit a scenario.

Flight Plan:

KABC WPTA WPTB WPTC KDEF

After passing WPTB, I either conclude on my own that APPRCH 1 to KDEF is
what I expect, or I am told to expect it. So I select APPRCH1, from IAF1,
and load it. Now the flight plan is

KABC WPTA WPTB WPTC KDEF IAF1 IF FAF MAP MAHP.

I delete the destination airport which causes a discontinuity (lots of
buttons and knobs):

KABC WPTA WPTB WPTC IAF1 IF FAF MAP MAHP.

Now I am still flying with WPTC as the TO waypoint, with the next waypoint
being IAF1.

Now, Case 1: I continue flying to WPTC, on passing it the machine sequences
to IAF1. But I have not been cleared to IAF1, I am still cleared to KDEF.
Problem. Requires unexpected actions. I have to fix it by entering direct
to a waypoint not in the flight plan. Lots of button/knob actions. I'm too
lazy to type it all in.

Case 2: Before reaching WPTC, I am cleared direct to IAF1. Requires pilot
intervention: FPL, press small button to get cursor, scroll down using
large knob to IAF1, Direct, Enter, Enter, FPL. Or, FPL, press small button
to get cursor, scroll down using large knob to WPTC, CLR, ENTER, FPL.

Case 3: I continue flying original flight plan, navigator continues to
sequence along cleared flight plan until I am cleared to fly direct IAF1.
PROC, ENTER, done.

Case 4: I figure that I will get Vectors To Final. So I load the approach,
with an IAF selected or with VTF selected. I delete the destination airport
waypoint. After passing the last enroute waypoint, the machine will
sequence to the IAF, if any, or to the FAF, if VTF. Is its action
consistent with my clearance at that point? As opposed to: upon receiving
the first vector, press PROC, ENTER (if VTF was loaded, otherwise scroll to
the VTF option on the menu and ENTER).

Do these scenarios miss the point?

Stan







"Stan Prevost" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Stan Prevost wrote:
>>
>>> FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR, ENTER
>>> to confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.
>>>
>>> vs
>>>
>>> PROC, ENTER.
>>
>> True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
>> easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
>> supposed to be if I "activate."
>>>
>
>>
> (and from another post)
>>I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected removing
>>the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight, then
>>everything sequences without pilot intervention
>
> Sam, I have reread your posts trying to make sure I understand your
> points. First of all, I didn't know the Garmins would self-activate, so
> that is something new I have learned from this thread. More on that
> later. I understand that you prefer to perform a more complex task rather
> than a two-button-task if you can move the task to a less busy period of
> the flight. But the "without pilot intervention" part only happens if you
> were already direct to the IAF at the time you deleted the airport
> waypoint, or deleted the airport waypoint to make the navigator sequence
> to the IAF when instructed to proceed direct to the IAF. Either way, it
> is the same result as the simpler activation procedure performed at the
> same point in time. If that is not true, then I am missing something in
> the scenario. Perhaps a simple example would help.
>
> As far as I can determine, the self-activation feature is not mentioned in
> the Garmin manuals. I believe another poster said the same. Personally,
> I am a bit uneasy about using undocumented "features" of software in
> critical situations. For one thing, we don't really know what is
> happening and if it has even been tested. Does it do the required RAIM
> predictions prior to the FAF? How would you know, unless it fails? Does
> this "feature" work under all conditions? Another thing, you don't know
> if the "feature" will still exist, or work the same way, if the software
> is updated.
>
> I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if they
> approve using the navigator this way? Or the FAA?
>
> Stan
>

[Stan Prevost]

"Mitty" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
> <snip>
>>
>> I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
>> they approve using the navigator this way?
>
> Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
> transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something besides
> the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are the problem
> and that the behavior is in the design spec.

I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented self-activation
"feature" helps anything.

Stan

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
>
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> Stan Prevost wrote:
>>
>>> FPL, push small knob to get cursor, scroll down to airport, CLR,
>>> ENTER to confirm, FPL to get back to NAV page.
>>>
>>> vs
>>>
>>> PROC, ENTER.
>>
>>
>> True enough. But, the bit of extra stuff earlier on is none the less
>> easier and I don't have to worry about making sure I am where I am
>> supposed to be if I "activate."
>>
>>>
>
>>
> (and from another post)
>
>> I took another look at it and disagree. Once the IAP is selected
>> removing the airport can be done prior to a critical phase of flight,
>> then everything sequences without pilot intervention
>
>
> Sam, I have reread your posts trying to make sure I understand your
> points. First of all, I didn't know the Garmins would self-activate, so
> that is something new I have learned from this thread. More on that
> later. I understand that you prefer to perform a more complex task
> rather than a two-button-task if you can move the task to a less busy
> period of the flight. But the "without pilot intervention" part only
> happens if you were already direct to the IAF at the time you deleted
> the airport waypoint, or deleted the airport waypoint to make the
> navigator sequence to the IAF when instructed to proceed direct to the
> IAF. Either way, it is the same result as the simpler activation
> procedure performed at the same point in time. If that is not true,
> then I am missing something in the scenario. Perhaps a simple example
> would help.

The following is via airways but I will just make it like it goes into a
non-aireay Garmin:

Hypothetical KingAir flight:

KEMT
DARTS
LHS
EHF
FMG
LKV
URBIA
KBDN

Before top of descent half way between LKV and URBIA, I check the AWOS
for KBND, and the wind is favoring Runway 16. Shortly, thereafter
Seattle Center asks me whether I want the Bend RNAV Y or Z to Runway 16.
I advise that I want the Z 16 and they reply "expect the Z IAP to 16.

I then load select the Z approach and the DSD transition and load.
Since I am still en route I also take the option step of cleaning up the
flight plan by deleting all waypoints prior to LKV.

Now, I have:

Enroute

LKV
URBIA
KBDN

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

I then delete KBDN and have


LKV
URBIA

Approach

DSD
FOMBO
hold
HEKIL
RW16
JOGON
SAKKO
hold

Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through
the missed approach.

When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal sensitivity
and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode. Since approach
annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.

>
> As far as I can determine, the self-activation feature is not mentioned
> in the Garmin manuals. I believe another poster said the same.
> Personally, I am a bit uneasy about using undocumented "features" of
> software in critical situations. For one thing, we don't really know
> what is happening and if it has even been tested. Does it do the
> required RAIM predictions prior to the FAF? How would you know, unless
> it fails? Does this "feature" work under all conditions? Another
> thing, you don't know if the "feature" will still exist, or work the
> same way, if the software is updated.

I believe it will always work because it is part of the ARINC spec for
RNAV flight plans. If it wouldn't work in the future, then the flight
plan wouldn't have "approach" followed by the approach legs.
>
> I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
> they approve using the navigator this way? Or the FAA?
>
It's how all FMSes that I have used work. But, let's find out what
Garmin has to say. I work with one of their engineers who can answer
the question. The FAA wouldn't know squat. ;-)

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:

>
> "Mitty" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>
>> On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
>>> they approve using the navigator this way?
>>
>>
>> Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
>> transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something
>> besides the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are
>> the problem and that the behavior is in the design spec.
>
>
> I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
> doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented
> self-activation "feature" helps anything.
>

It helps me in avoiding having to activate the approach at a possible
inopportune time.
>

[Stan Prevost]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> I then delete KBDN and have
>
>
> LKV
> URBIA
>
> Approach
>
> DSD
> FOMBO
> hold
> HEKIL
> RW16
> JOGON
> SAKKO
> hold
>
> Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through the
> missed approach.
>
> When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal sensitivity
> and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode. Since approach
> annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.
>

OK, that is pretty much what I understood. And I understood that once you
pass URBIA, your navigation will be to the IAF (or feeder fix, whichever it
is) DSD. But you haven't been cleared to DSD, you have only been told to
EXPECT that approach, nothing more, and you are still cleared URBIA.KBDN,
and must continue to fly that route until cleared otherwise.

BTW, I was at KBDN this summer, long way from home base in Alabama. Had
interesting tours of Columbia plant and Epic plant.

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
>
> "Sam Spade" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>> I then delete KBDN and have
>>
>>
>> LKV
>> URBIA
>>
>> Approach
>>
>> DSD
>> FOMBO
>> hold
>> HEKIL
>> RW16
>> JOGON
>> SAKKO
>> hold
>>
>> Everything will sequence without any further action on my part through
>> the missed approach.
>>
>> When I pass within 30 miles of the ARP I will have terminal
>> sensitivity and 2 miles prior to HEKIL I will have approach mode.
>> Since approach annunciates at that time I have approach RAIM.
>>
>
> OK, that is pretty much what I understood. And I understood that once
> you pass URBIA, your navigation will be to the IAF (or feeder fix,
> whichever it is) DSD. But you haven't been cleared to DSD, you have
> only been told to EXPECT that approach, nothing more, and you are still
> cleared URBIA.KBDN, and must continue to fly that route until cleared
> otherwise.

Ok, okay. 20 miles southeast of URBIA, Seattle Center says, "Cross
URBIA at, or above 10,000, cleared for the Bend RNAV Zula Runway 16
approach. Report HEKIL."

If that didn't happen I would be bugging them before URBIA. Remember, I
didn't specify the filed route; rather just gave the waypoints. The
filed route would be KEMT..DARTS..LHS..AMONT..EHF.J5.LKV.V165.DSD..KBDN

URBIA would be in my Garmin flight plan sequence because it is an MEA break.
>
> BTW, I was at KBDN this summer, long way from home base in Alabama. Had
> interesting tours of Columbia plant and Epic plant.

I lived in Bend as a second home in the 1980s until late 1990. The
airport was very quiet then compared to now. The new LPV approach (just
effective last Thursday) is a significant improvement.

And, if I were arriving on that route this soon after the effective date
the center might very well not even be aware of the new Zulu approach. ;-)

>
>
>
>

[Sam Spade]

Stan Prevost wrote:
>
> "Mitty" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>
>>
>> On 2/17/2008 4:54 PM, Stan Prevost wrote the following:
>> <snip>
>>
>>>
>>> I wonder what the response would be if one called Garmin and asked if
>>> they approve using the navigator this way?
>>
>>
>> Try it! I have had extremely good luck with Garmin tech support
>> transferring me to very knowledgeable people when I had something
>> besides the usual RTFM questions. My guess is that the manuals are
>> the problem and that the behavior is in the design spec.
>
>
> I would call them if I understood why I might have anything to gain from
> doing so. I don't yet understand how using the undocumented
> self-activation "feature" helps anything.
>
> Stan
>
Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at
the top of the engineering food chain there:

"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.

We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."

[Stan Prevost]

"Sam Spade" > wrote in message
...
> Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at the
> top of the engineering food chain there:
>
> "Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.
>
> We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
> because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
> particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
> So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
> approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
> navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
> for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
> plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
> whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."


Thanks, Sam!

[Terence Wilson]

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 07:46:16 -0800, Sam Spade >
wrote:

>>
>Here is the official answer from my Garmin associate. He is about at
>the top of the engineering food chain there:
>
>"Documented or not, I say what you are doing is fine.
>
>We specifically designed the approach selection to do what you describe
>because a pilot might learn on an ATIS frequency that he should expect a
>particular approach/transition long before he's actually cleared for it.
>So, the pilot can get ahead of the game by selecting the
>approach/transition and placing it into the flight plan while still
>navigating to the airport on his existing clearance. Then, once cleared
>for the approach/transition, he can remove the airport from the flight
>plan as you indicate, activate a direct-to the initial approach fix, or
>whatever he is cleared to do to get established on the approach."

Thanks for looking into that Sam.