An aeroplane that can stand still in air

[Chandresh Prakash]

Hi,
Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.

Thanks,
Chandresh

[David Bromage]

Chandresh Prakash wrote:
> Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?

The Osprey.

Cheers
David

[Keith Willshaw]

"Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi,
> Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?

Harrier/AV8

> I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?

No

Keith

[B2431]

>From: (Chandresh Prakash)
>Date: 1/6/2004 1:13 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Hi,
> Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.
>
>Thanks,
> Chandresh
>

If you are flying an airplane at 60 kt IAS into a 60 kt wind you are not moving
forwards or backwards.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Errol Cavit]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: (Chandresh Prakash)
> > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> > I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.
> >
>
> If you are flying an airplane at 60 kt IAS into a 60 kt wind you are not
moving
> forwards or backwards.
>

I've seen a Tiger Moth do this for about a minute during an unofficial
display, so it's hardly high tech!


--
Errol Cavit |
I've heard a tape of collected kakapo noises, and it's almost impossible to
believe that it all just comes from a bird, or indeed any kind of animal.
Pink Floyd studio out-takes perhaps, but not a parrot.
Douglas Adams, _Last Chance to See_

[Cub Driver]

> Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?

Sure. I saw a Storch hover over the runway at Pease, at an airshow two
or three years ago. Of course there was a NW wind.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Jarg]

I saw this airplane hover in place at an airshow at Moffet Field:

http://www.worldairshownews.com/WAN/articles/jan98/raven.html

I read that it crashed a few weeks later.

Jarg

"Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
om...
> Hi,
> Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.
>
> Thanks,
> Chandresh

[robert arndt]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Hi,
> > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
>
> Harrier/AV8
>
> > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
>
> No
>
> Keith

As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
(briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
who have seen the Su-37 do it too.

Rob

[Keith Willshaw]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...

> As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
>
> Rob

Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily

Try holding that position for 30 seconds though

Keith

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, Errol Cavit
> writes
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: (Chandresh Prakash)
>> > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
>> > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
>> > I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.
>> >
>>
>> If you are flying an airplane at 60 kt IAS into a 60 kt wind you are not
>moving
>> forwards or backwards.
>>
>
>I've seen a Tiger Moth do this for about a minute during an unofficial
>display, so it's hardly high tech!

About 40 years ago a private pilot was fined for flying over Portsmouth
(UK) backwards.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[John R Weiss]

"robert arndt" > wrote...
>
> As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> who have seen the Su-37 do it too.

Virtually ANY high-performance airplane can "stand still in air" for a brief
instant -- just pull it up into the vertical and reduce the power. It will
eventually stop, just prior to a brief tail slide and eventual "falling leaf"
maneuver. I've done it many times in the A-4 and A-6, and once in an F/A-18D.

OTOH, I doubt there are any airplanes out there beyond the VTOL/STOOL crowd that
can come to a controlled, sustained stop in mid air. I suspect that those doing
"difficult maneuvers" in the horizontal plane maintain at least some forward
speed throughout. Otherwise, there would be no control authority.

[John R Weiss]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
>
> Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily

What is a "stall turn"?

An airplane that is stalled usually maintains significant forward speed.

[John R Weiss]

"Errol Cavit" > wrote...

>> If you are flying an airplane at 60 kt IAS into a 60 kt wind you are not
> moving forwards or backwards.

Actually, the airplane IS moving "in air" -- it is only stopped with respect to
the ground.

[Ian]

robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > Hi,
> > > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> >
> > Harrier/AV8
> >
> > > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> >
> > No
> >
> > Keith
>
> As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
>
> Rob

<pendent mode>
Keith was probably right - the original question was SU-30 related, and
you've proved him wrong quoting the SU-35 and Su-37????

</pendent mode>

[Dave Holford]

John R Weiss wrote:
>
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
> >
> > Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily
>
> What is a "stall turn"?
>
> An airplane that is stalled usually maintains significant forward speed.


Funny, I don't recall ever having any foreward, or other, speed during a
stall turn.

Dave

[Alan Minyard]

On Tue, 06 Jan 2004 18:43:20 +1100, David Bromage > wrote:

>Chandresh Prakash wrote:
> > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
>
>The Osprey.
>
>Cheers
>David

AV-8 Harrier
F-35 (some variants)

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On 6 Jan 2004 10:54:16 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
>> "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> > Hi,
>> > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
>>
>> Harrier/AV8
>>
>> > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
>>
>> No
>>
>> Keith
>
>As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
>usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
>(briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
>who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
>
>Rob

You are, as usual, full of it. The Su cannot "stop" in mid- air for more
than a fraction of a second.

Al Minyard

[John R Weiss]

"Dave Holford" > wrote...
>
> Funny, I don't recall ever having any foreward, or other, speed during a
> stall turn.

....and I can't remember ever performing a "stall turn." Please describe the
maneuver and its parameters.

[James Hart]

M. J. Powell wrote:
> In message >, Errol Cavit
> > writes
>> "B2431" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> From: (Chandresh Prakash)
>>>> Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
>>>> I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
>>>> I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you are flying an airplane at 60 kt IAS into a 60 kt wind you
>>> are not moving forwards or backwards.
>>>
>>
>> I've seen a Tiger Moth do this for about a minute during an
>> unofficial display, so it's hardly high tech!
>
> About 40 years ago a private pilot was fined for flying over
> Portsmouth (UK) backwards.

I wonder what they answered when asked speed and heading?

--
James...
www.jameshart.co.uk

[Keith Willshaw]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:hWEKb.302035$_M.1721189@attbi_s54...
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
> >
> > Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily
>
> What is a "stall turn"?
>

Pull up into a vertical climb in a light aircraft and you'll
soon find out :)

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:gWEKb.302034$_M.1722533@attbi_s54...
> "robert arndt" > wrote...
> >
> > As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> > usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> > (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> > who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
>
> Virtually ANY high-performance airplane can "stand still in air" for a
brief
> instant -- just pull it up into the vertical and reduce the power. It
will
> eventually stop, just prior to a brief tail slide and eventual "falling
leaf"
> maneuver. I've done it many times in the A-4 and A-6, and once in an
F/A-18D.
>

AKA a stall turn

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:ciHKb.145472$VB2.551600@attbi_s51...
> "Dave Holford" > wrote...
> >
> > Funny, I don't recall ever having any foreward, or other, speed during a
> > stall turn.
>
> ...and I can't remember ever performing a "stall turn." Please describe
the
> maneuver and its parameters.
>

http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/flying/v8-2-39.html

Keith

[Mike Marron]

>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>>"John R Weiss" > wrote:

>>What is a "stall turn"?

>Pull up into a vertical climb in a light aircraft and you'll
>soon find out :)

Pull up into a vertical climb in the (tailless) type of aircraft
I happen to fly and you'll probably die. Here is a horrific
little video that illustrates exactly what I mean:

http://www.pegasus-usa.com/tech/tumble.mpg

(Play it several times in slow motion and just imagine what
was going through the doomed pilot's mind at the time!)

A "stall turn" to me is a hammerhead stall (we can't perform
those either, without either dying or firing the ballistic chute).
Without a rudder, the closest thing to a hammerhead stall that
I can safely perform in the type of airplane I fly is a wingover.
But since a true wingover is a 90-deg. climbing turn followed
by a 90-deg. descending turn resulting in a 180-deg. change
in direction, technically I perform "wangs" rather than wingovers.
Trikes can't perform true wingovers because bottom rudder
is needed at the top of the climbing turn to keep the aircraft
coordinated.

In steady-state winds aloft, flying stationary (relative to the
ground), or even backwards and sideways is no problem,
however.

[John R Weiss]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
>
>> -- just pull it up into the vertical and reduce the power. It will
>> eventually stop, just prior to a brief tail slide and eventual "falling leaf"
>> maneuver.
>
> AKA a stall turn

OK. First time I've heard it called that.

Looking at the fly-imaa.org article you cited, "stall turn" is another name for
a hammerhead stall (a term with which I'm familiar). Note that in a hammerhead,
the airplane should NOT go to 0 forward airspeed -- it needs airspeed to
maintain controllability. To wit, " The second thing that can cause a flop
over, especially in trainers or slow planes, is not enough speed when you put in
the rudder." (from that article). So, the airplane does NOT "stand still in
air" per the OP's question. It only appears to stand still. Admittedly, some
aerobats do tail-slide maneuvers, during which the airplane will briefly pass
through 0 airspeed.

[robert arndt]

"Ian" > wrote in message >...
> robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > Hi,
> > > > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> > >
> > > Harrier/AV8
> > >
> > > > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> > >
> > > No
> > >
> > > Keith
> >
> > As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> > usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> > (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> > who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
> >
> > Rob
>
> <pendent mode>
> Keith was probably right - the original question was SU-30 related, and
> you've proved him wrong quoting the SU-35 and Su-37????
>
> </pendent mode>

Hey moron, use your brain. Look at the title of the thread and first
sentence of the original poster's question!
Keith isn't saying that the Su-30 can't stop in midair, he's saying no
non-VSTOL/VTOL aircraft can stop in midair. Read his reply for
confirmation.
Yet amazingly both the Su-35 and Su-37 have DEMONSTRATED a dead stop
(no forward airspeed at all) in midair during highly complex manouvers
that only their aircraft can perform.
The F/A-18 might have a brief pause trying to emulate that manouver,
but it cannot dead stop like the Su-35 and TVC Su-37.
You want me to mail you the video?

Rob

[[email protected]]

"John R Weiss" > wrote:

>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
>>
>> Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily
>
>What is a "stall turn"?
>
>An airplane that is stalled usually maintains significant forward speed.

Of course...they stall at their design stall speed (which varies
with payload, fuel weight and flight configuration). Damned few
have a stall speed under 100 knots.
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:

>
>"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
>news:ciHKb.145472$VB2.551600@attbi_s51...
>> "Dave Holford" > wrote...
>> >
>> > Funny, I don't recall ever having any foreward, or other, speed during a
>> > stall turn.
>>
>> ...and I can't remember ever performing a "stall turn." Please describe
>the
>> maneuver and its parameters.
>>
>
>http://www.fly-imaa.org/imaa/hfarticles/flying/v8-2-39.html
>
>Keith
>
Well, guess I'm wrong yet again...never did hear that maneuver
called a 'stall turn' although it possibly was. Seems like a poor
description though.

I'd think that a 'stall' would be described as that condition
where the smooth flow of the slipstream becomes detached from the
upper surface of an a/c's wing and the wing loses lift. NOT when
the a/c STOPS in midair.

Seems to me that we should ask our resident expert in things
aerobatic. What say Dudley?.
--

-Gord.

[John Keeney]

"Jarg" > wrote in message
.. .
> I saw this airplane hover in place at an airshow at Moffet Field:
>
> http://www.worldairshownews.com/WAN/articles/jan98/raven.html
>
> I read that it crashed a few weeks later.

From the man's own web site:
"The Oracle Turbo Raven, powered by a 750 HP Pratt & Whitney PT6A-25C, was
the first airshow airplane to have a positive thrust-to-weight ratio. With a
performance weight of 1,900 pounds and 2,800 pounds of thrust, the Turbo
Raven could climb straight up, stop in the vertical line, and then
accelerate straight up again. Another of Wayne's favorite maneuvers in the
Oracle Turbo Raven was to power out of a flat spin without lowering the nose
below the horizon. On January 20, 1999, Wayne established a world record for
all propeller driven airplanes by going from brake release to 3,000 meters
in one minute and nine seconds. In April of 1999, flying a G-202, Wayne
broke his own world record for inverted flat spins by taking the world
record up to 78 turns. (Wayne asks anyone wishing to break this record to
add his or her turns to the top and not the bottom of this maneuver.) During
the EAA convention in Oshkosh on July 30,1999, Wayne established a new
time-to-climb record to 6,000 meters in the Oracle Turbo Raven with a time
of three minutes and six seconds.

"On October 3, 1999, one year to the day that the Oracle Turbo Raven had
been on the airshow circuit, Wayne was involved in a tragic accident while
performing in the Turbo Raven at the California International Airshow. The
airplane was a total loss and Wayne sustained a broken back and other
injuries. Thanks to the preparedness of the show's emergency personnel and
the magnificent staff of the Salinas Valley Memorial Hospital, Wayne made a
complete recovery. "

78 turns in an inverted flat spin?


> Jarg
>
> "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Hi,
> > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> > I found no evidence on a google web/groups search.

[Krztalizer]

>
>
>78 turns in an inverted flat spin?

Most people would call that 'dying'.

Gordon

[Simon Robbins]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> who have seen the Su-37 do it too.

I've seen the Su-37 do it at Farnborough in 1996. It stood there on it's
tail stationary for a good 20 seconds before rolling over backwards barely
within it's own length and then powering up vertically. Very impressive
indeed.

Si

[Simon Robbins]

"Alan Minyard" > wrote in message
...
> You are, as usual, full of it. The Su cannot "stop" in mid- air for more
> than a fraction of a second.

The Su-37 can (or did, don't believe the aircraft is in existence anymore),
I've seen it do it with my own eyes. It held there at about 40 degrees AOA,
with it's vectored thrust pointing right down. Dead steady hover.

Si

[Cub Driver]

> Damned few
>have a stall speed under 100 knots.

You really know how to hurt a guy.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[David Windhorst]

Simon Robbins wrote:

>"Alan Minyard" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>You are, as usual, full of it. The Su cannot "stop" in mid- air for more
>>than a fraction of a second.
>>
>>
>
>The Su-37 can (or did, don't believe the aircraft is in existence anymore),
>I've seen it do it with my own eyes. It held there at about 40 degrees AOA,
>with it's vectored thrust pointing right down. Dead steady hover.
>
>Si
>
>
>
>
Obviously, any a/c with a t/w ratio of unity or better can, in theory,
hover. But how would it maintain attitude for more than just a moment?
Wouldn't that requre a) air moving over control surfaces, b) reaction
controls (as on the NF104), or c) some really intuitive manipulation of
the thrust nozzles? And how could it hover at anything less than 90
degrees AOA? Wouldn't, to hover, CG have to be right over CT, if
there's no forward momentum? It's not like a jet can "hang on the prop."

Not flaming, just wondering...

[Ian]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Ian" > wrote in message
>...
> > robert arndt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
> > > > om...
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> > > >
> > > > Harrier/AV8
> > > >
> > > > > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> > > >
> > > > No
> > > >
> > > > Keith
> > >
> > > As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> > > usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> > > (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> > > who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
> > >
> > > Rob
> >
> > <pendent mode>
> > Keith was probably right - the original question was SU-30 related, and
> > you've proved him wrong quoting the SU-35 and Su-37????
> >
> > </pendent mode>
>
> Hey moron, use your brain. Look at the title of the thread and first
> sentence of the original poster's question!
> Keith isn't saying that the Su-30 can't stop in midair, he's saying no
> non-VSTOL/VTOL aircraft can stop in midair. Read his reply for
> confirmation.
> Yet amazingly both the Su-35 and Su-37 have DEMONSTRATED a dead stop
> (no forward airspeed at all) in midair during highly complex manouvers
> that only their aircraft can perform.
> The F/A-18 might have a brief pause trying to emulate that manouver,
> but it cannot dead stop like the Su-35 and TVC Su-37.
> You want me to mail you the video?
>
> Rob
No thanks

[[email protected]]

Cub Driver > wrote:

>
>> Damned few
>>have a stall speed under 100 knots.
>
>You really know how to hurt a guy.
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford

Sorry Dan, I should have added "...except for those that are fun
to fly" :)

--

-Gord.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

> Cub Driver > wrote:
>
> >
> >> Damned few
> >>have a stall speed under 100 knots.
> >
> >You really know how to hurt a guy.
> >
> >all the best -- Dan Ford
>
> Sorry Dan, I should have added "...except for those that are fun
> to fly" :)
>
> --
>
> -Gord.

How about backing up? I know a pilot who flew the length of the old
Huntsville (AL) airport backwards! It was in a Cub, with about 40 kt
winds -- he got into trouble with FAA for it, too!

[Richard Brooks]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "John R Weiss" > wrote:
>
> >"Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
> >>
> >> Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily
> >
> >What is a "stall turn"?
> >
> >An airplane that is stalled usually maintains significant forward speed.
>
> Of course...they stall at their design stall speed (which varies
> with payload, fuel weight and flight configuration). Damned few
> have a stall speed under 100 knots.

A flying instructor told me of lysanders that would fly backwards if the
headwind was too strong.

Richard.

[[email protected]]

"Richard Brooks" > wrote:

>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> "John R Weiss" > wrote:
>>
>> >"Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
>> >>
>> >> Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily
>> >
>> >What is a "stall turn"?
>> >
>> >An airplane that is stalled usually maintains significant forward speed.
>>
>> Of course...they stall at their design stall speed (which varies
>> with payload, fuel weight and flight configuration). Damned few
>> have a stall speed under 100 knots.
>
>A flying instructor told me of lysanders that would fly backwards if the
>headwind was too strong.
>
>Richard.
>
He should have told you that -any- aircraft will fly 'backwards'
if it's headwind is higher than it's stall speed.
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

>"Richard Brooks" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>>> "John R Weiss" > wrote:
>>>
>>> >"Keith Willshaw" > wrote...
>>> >>
>>> >> Any aircraft which does a stall turn stops momentarily
>>> >
>>> >What is a "stall turn"?
>>> >
>>> >An airplane that is stalled usually maintains significant forward speed.
>>>
>>> Of course...they stall at their design stall speed (which varies
>>> with payload, fuel weight and flight configuration). Damned few
>>> have a stall speed under 100 knots.
>>
>>A flying instructor told me of lysanders that would fly backwards if the
>>headwind was too strong.
>>
>>Richard.
>>
>He should have told you that -any- aircraft will fly 'backwards'
>if it's headwind is higher than it's stall speed.

Oops...should have said that it 'can' fly backwards if it's
headwinds are higher than it's stall speed...and...that
it 'will' fly backwards if it's headwinds are higher than it's
max speed
--

-Gord.

[Andrew Chaplin]

" wrote:
>
> "Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
>
> >"Richard Brooks" > wrote:
> >
> >>A flying instructor told me of lysanders that would fly backwards if the
> >>headwind was too strong.
>
> >He should have told you that -any- aircraft will fly 'backwards'
> >if it's headwind is higher than it's stall speed.
>
> Oops...should have said that it 'can' fly backwards if it's
> headwinds are higher than it's stall speed...and...that
> it 'will' fly backwards if it's headwinds are higher than it's
> max speed

Just ask any Swordfish pilot.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Alan Minyard]

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 01:24:26 GMT, Mike Marron > wrote:

>>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>>>"John R Weiss" > wrote:
>
>>>What is a "stall turn"?
>
>>Pull up into a vertical climb in a light aircraft and you'll
>>soon find out :)
>
>Pull up into a vertical climb in the (tailless) type of aircraft
>I happen to fly and you'll probably die. Here is a horrific
>little video that illustrates exactly what I mean:
>
>http://www.pegasus-usa.com/tech/tumble.mpg
>
>(Play it several times in slow motion and just imagine what
>was going through the doomed pilot's mind at the time!)
>
>A "stall turn" to me is a hammerhead stall (we can't perform
>those either, without either dying or firing the ballistic chute).
>Without a rudder, the closest thing to a hammerhead stall that
>I can safely perform in the type of airplane I fly is a wingover.
>But since a true wingover is a 90-deg. climbing turn followed
>by a 90-deg. descending turn resulting in a 180-deg. change
>in direction, technically I perform "wangs" rather than wingovers.
>Trikes can't perform true wingovers because bottom rudder
>is needed at the top of the climbing turn to keep the aircraft
>coordinated.
>
>In steady-state winds aloft, flying stationary (relative to the
>ground), or even backwards and sideways is no problem,
>however.

Ultralights are generally not considered "aircraft".

Al Minyard

[QDurham]

>What is a "stall turn"?
>>
>>>Pull up into a vertical climb in a light aircraft and you'll
>>>soon find out :)
>>

I suspect you are referring to whaT I learned as a "snap turn." Put the plane
(SNJ/T6 in my case) in a steep turn to the left. Then haul back swiftly on
stick. Angle of attack is exceeded, right wing stalls, and plane snaps to the
right. The trick is to recover from the snap before it developes into a nice
spin. Lots of fun when planned on and done correctly. Scares the **** out of
you when happens inadvertantly. Can work starting with a turn to the right,
but harder to do because the SNJ's right wing is fonder of stalls than its left
wing.

This, incidentally, can be done at almost any airspeed. Simply a high speed
stall while in a steep turn.

Quent

[Mike Marron]

>Alan Minyard > wrote:
>>Mike Marron > wrote:

>>Pull up into a vertical climb in the (tailless) type of aircraft
>>I happen to fly and you'll probably die. Here is a horrific
>>little video that illustrates exactly what I mean:

>>http://www.pegasus-usa.com/tech/tumble.mpg

>>(Play it several times in slow motion and just imagine what
>>was going through the doomed pilot's mind at the time!)

>>A "stall turn" to me is a hammerhead stall (we can't perform
>>those either, without either dying or firing the ballistic chute).
>>Without a rudder, the closest thing to a hammerhead stall that
>>I can safely perform in the type of airplane I fly is a wingover.
>>But since a true wingover is a 90-deg. climbing turn followed
>>by a 90-deg. descending turn resulting in a 180-deg. change
>>in direction, technically I perform "wangs" rather than wingovers.
>>Trikes can't perform true wingovers because bottom rudder
>>is needed at the top of the climbing turn to keep the aircraft
>>coordinated.

>>In steady-state winds aloft, flying stationary (relative to the
>>ground), or even backwards and sideways is no problem,
>>however.

>Ultralights are generally not considered "aircraft".

Correct. However, anything equipped with 2-seats and weighs more
than 254 pounds, has a fuel capacity exceeding 5 U.S. gallons, is
capable of more than 55 knots calibrated airspeed at full power in
level flight and has a power-off stall speed that exceeds 24 knots is
not considered an "ultralight."

Truth be known, 99-percent of today's "ultralights" do NOT meet
the criteria above and are therefore actually illegal, unlicensed
aircraft being flown illegally by unlicensed pilots!

Granted, to the untrained eye my trike (like most trikes) looks like
an "ultralight" but my particular trike is actually an N-numbered
aircraft (not an "ultralight" by any stretch of the imagination) and I
am a CFII, and Commericial, Multi-Engine, Instrument pilot with an
Airframe & Powerplant mechanic certificate.

In other words, I am one of the very few in this country who is not
flying around in these things "illegally."

The reason the FAA doesn't enforce the current rules for "ultralights"
is because they recognize that the rules for ultralights were written
back in the early 80's and are woefully out-dated. Hence, new rules
and regulations are being promulgated for so-called "ultralights" as
we speak.

For more information, see: http://www.sportpilot.org/

[Alan Minyard]

On 6 Jan 2004 18:19:15 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:

>"Ian" > wrote in message >...
>> robert arndt" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
>> >...
>> > > "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
>> > > om...
>> > > > Hi,
>> > > > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
>> > >
>> > > Harrier/AV8
>> > >
>> > > > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
>> > >
>> > > No
>> > >
>> > > Keith
>> >
>> > As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
>> > usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
>> > (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
>> > who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
>> >
>> > Rob
>>
>> <pendent mode>
>> Keith was probably right - the original question was SU-30 related, and
>> you've proved him wrong quoting the SU-35 and Su-37????
>>
>> </pendent mode>
>
>Hey moron, use your brain. Look at the title of the thread and first
>sentence of the original poster's question!
>Keith isn't saying that the Su-30 can't stop in midair, he's saying no
>non-VSTOL/VTOL aircraft can stop in midair. Read his reply for
>confirmation.
>Yet amazingly both the Su-35 and Su-37 have DEMONSTRATED a dead stop
>(no forward airspeed at all) in midair during highly complex manouvers
>that only their aircraft can perform.
>The F/A-18 might have a brief pause trying to emulate that manouver,
>but it cannot dead stop like the Su-35 and TVC Su-37.
>You want me to mail you the video?
>
>Rob

Neither the Su-35 or the SU-37 can "stop" while airborne. Get that through
your thick skull.

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On 07 Jan 2004 09:54:26 GMT, (Krztalizer) wrote:

>>
>>
>>78 turns in an inverted flat spin?
>
>Most people would call that 'dying'.
>
>Gordon

I don't think I would even wait for impact, the coronary
would probably kill me about turn 15 :-)

Al Minyard

[robert arndt]

Alan Minyard > wrote in message >...
> On 6 Jan 2004 18:19:15 -0800, (robert arndt) wrote:
>
> >"Ian" > wrote in message >...
> >> robert arndt" > wrote in message
> >> om...
> >> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> >...
> >> > > "Chandresh Prakash" > wrote in message
> >> > > om...
> >> > > > Hi,
> >> > > > Is there an aeroplane that can stand still in mid-air ?
> >> > >
> >> > > Harrier/AV8
> >> > >
> >> > > > I used to think that SU - 30 could do it. Is that true ?
> >> > >
> >> > > No
> >> > >
> >> > > Keith
> >> >
> >> > As usual, Keith tries to speak as an authority and is dead wrong as
> >> > usual. I have a demonstrator video of a Su-35 stopped in mid-air
> >> > (briefly) during a difficult manouver and there are plenty of others
> >> > who have seen the Su-37 do it too.
> >> >
> >> > Rob
> >>
> >> <pendent mode>
> >> Keith was probably right - the original question was SU-30 related, and
> >> you've proved him wrong quoting the SU-35 and Su-37????
> >>
> >> </pendent mode>
> >
> >Hey moron, use your brain. Look at the title of the thread and first
> >sentence of the original poster's question!
> >Keith isn't saying that the Su-30 can't stop in midair, he's saying no
> >non-VSTOL/VTOL aircraft can stop in midair. Read his reply for
> >confirmation.
> >Yet amazingly both the Su-35 and Su-37 have DEMONSTRATED a dead stop
> >(no forward airspeed at all) in midair during highly complex manouvers
> >that only their aircraft can perform.
> >The F/A-18 might have a brief pause trying to emulate that manouver,
> >but it cannot dead stop like the Su-35 and TVC Su-37.
> >You want me to mail you the video?
> >
> >Rob
>
> Neither the Su-35 or the SU-37 can "stop" while airborne. Get that through
> your thick skull.
>
> Al Minyard

Well I have a Su-35 holding still for almost 20 seconds in midair.
Indicated airspeed at ZERO before tail finally drops and Su-35 pitches
forward and resumes aerobatic display for crowd. Absolutely stunning.
You're just ****ed because no other operational non VTOL/VSTOL can do
this.

Rob

[B2431]

>From: (robert arndt)
>Date: 1/10/2004 9:20 PM Central


>
>Well I have a Su-35 holding still for almost 20 seconds in midair.
>Indicated airspeed at ZERO before tail finally drops and Su-35 pitches
>forward and resumes aerobatic display for crowd. Absolutely stunning.
>You're just ****ed because no other operational non VTOL/VSTOL can do
>this.
>
>Rob
>

A helicopter in hover will show zero IAS. An aircraft in a hammerhead stall
will show 0 IAS.

As for the 20 seconds how about providing us with a clip or web site?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[robert arndt]

(B2431) wrote in message >...
> >From: (robert arndt)
> >Date: 1/10/2004 9:20 PM Central
>
>
> >
> >Well I have a Su-35 holding still for almost 20 seconds in midair.
> >Indicated airspeed at ZERO before tail finally drops and Su-35 pitches
> >forward and resumes aerobatic display for crowd. Absolutely stunning.
> >You're just ****ed because no other operational non VTOL/VSTOL can do
> >this.
> >
> >Rob
> >
>
> A helicopter in hover will show zero IAS. An aircraft in a hammerhead stall
> will show 0 IAS.
>
> As for the 20 seconds how about providing us with a clip or web site?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I have it on an authentic Russian airshow demonstrator video- recorded
on VHS. It was taped outside Moscow and given to me by a friend to add
to my collection.
I offered to mail it to the first person who argued about it.

Rob