Hiroshima. The final word.

[ArtKramr]

To have had the ability to end the war and not having done so, would have been
the greatest war crime of all.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[steve gallacci]

ArtKramr wrote:
>
> To have had the ability to end the war and not having done so, would have been
> the greatest war crime of all.
>
I had the impression that thoughts along those lines were considered in
the administration. While the US had a good notion that the Japanese
surrender was only a matter of time, how much time was still in the air,
even with the Soviet declaration of war. The invasion of the home
islands were only a contingency, and really worse case planers might
have had the idea of a huge force close by, not so much to
invade/conqure the Japanese as much as to deter Soviet intrusion. But as
to the atomics, to have them and not use them, with the presumption that
they would bring the war to a quick end, would have the public demanding
for the heads of responsible leaders for every soldier killed beyond the
deployable date.

[Bernardz]

In article >, says...
>
>
> ArtKramr wrote:
> >
> > To have had the ability to end the war and not having done so, would have been
> > the greatest war crime of all.
> >
> I had the impression that thoughts along those lines were considered in
> the administration. While the US had a good notion that the Japanese
> surrender was only a matter of time, how much time was still in the air,
> even with the Soviet declaration of war. The invasion of the home
> islands were only a contingency, and really worse case planers might
> have had the idea of a huge force close by, not so much to
> invade/conqure the Japanese as much as to deter Soviet intrusion. But as
> to the atomics, to have them and not use them, with the presumption that
> they would bring the war to a quick end, would have the public demanding
> for the heads of responsible leaders for every soldier killed beyond the
> deployable date.
>

Every day the war was going on was costing lives. The loses in the
Pacific were comparable to the losses in Europe.

Overall about 15 million died.

Everyday the war was going on was costing 10,000 a day.

If the Japanese lasted another month that means the death toll would
have been 300,000 more even if the US did not invade.





--
France, Germany and Russia made huge profits by keeping Saddam in power;
now they are upset that some other countries businesses will benefit now
he is gone.

28th observation of Bernard

[Greg Hennessy]

On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:19:51 +1100, Bernardz >
wrote:

>
>
>If the Japanese lasted another month that means the death toll would
>have been 300,000 more even if the US did not invade.

Not forgetting the 6 figure amount of allied POWs and Internees who were
going to be murdered as a consequence of operation zipper happening.



greg
--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[Matt Wiser]

Greg Hennessy > wrote:
>On Wed, 7 Jan 2004 19:19:51 +1100, Bernardz
>
>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>If the Japanese lasted another month that means
>the death toll would
>>have been 300,000 more even if the US did not
>invade.
>
>Not forgetting the 6 figure amount of allied
>POWs and Internees who were
>going to be murdered as a consequence of operation
>zipper happening.
>
>
>
>greg
>--
>You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against
>the Harlot
>after she marches right down the aisle and kicks
>you in the nuts.
Greg, Operation ZIPPER was the British attack on Malaya and Singapore that
was scheduled for September. Do you have it confused with OLYMPIC-the attack
on Kyushu scheduled for 1 November 45?

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Greg Hennessy]

On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:31:31 GMT, "Matt Wiser" >
wrote:

>

> Greg, Operation ZIPPER was the British attack on Malaya and Singapore that
>was scheduled for September.

Thats the one I'm referring to, 'magic' intercepted a general order from
regional HQ in Singapore to kill all POWs and internees held in the area
under its control the moment allied forces invaded.

Zipper was due to kick off on 1st Sept 45.


greg



--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[Matt Wiser]

Greg Hennessy > wrote:
>On Wed, 07 Jan 2004 19:31:31 GMT, "Matt Wiser"
>
>wrote:
>
>>
>
>> Greg, Operation ZIPPER was the British attack
>on Malaya and Singapore that
>>was scheduled for September.
>
>Thats the one I'm referring to, 'magic' intercepted
>a general order from
>regional HQ in Singapore to kill all POWs and
>internees held in the area
>under its control the moment allied forces invaded.
>
>
>Zipper was due to kick off on 1st Sept 45.
>
>
>greg
>
>
>
>--
>You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against
>the Harlot
>after she marches right down the aisle and kicks
>you in the nuts.
Are you sure about that?I've heard similar stories, but that the kill order
was to go into effect once the invasion of Japan began. ISTR that OSS, SOE,
etc had parachute teams on standby to jump on the camps when they picked
up that order via COMINT. Local guerillas in contact with the allies were
also going to hit the camps. At least the parties who issued that order were
tried postwar (it came from Tokyo) and were executed. (They weren't class
A war criminals, but B-level. That didn't save their necks, which were stretched
at Sugamo Prison)

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Greg Hennessy]

On Thu, 08 Jan 2004 15:34:19 GMT, "Matt Wiser" >
wrote:


> Are you sure about that?

Pretty positive, I believe it was one of the charges used to dangle the
japanese brass in charge of that region post war. FWIR Mountbatten put the
figure at close to 300,000 POWs and internees saved as a consequence of
zipper not happening.

> I've heard similar stories, but that the kill order
>was to go into effect once the invasion of Japan began.

That was for the POWs/internees held in Japan. They had already started to
butcher POWs in places as far away as Wake and Borneo. Prisoners held in
Rangoon were saved only because the officer detailed to do it disobeyed
orders.

> ISTR that OSS, SOE,
>etc had parachute teams on standby to jump on the camps when they picked
>up that order via COMINT. Local guerillas in contact with the allies were
>also going to hit the camps.

On mainland japan though there wouldn't have been much hope for the poor
buggers being used as slave labour there.


> At least the parties who issued that order were
>tried postwar (it came from Tokyo) and were executed. (They weren't class
>A war criminals, but B-level. That didn't save their necks, which were stretched
>at Sugamo Prison)

As they were in trials across the region.


greg

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[Cub Driver]

>?I've heard similar stories, but that the kill order
>was to go into effect once the invasion of Japan began.

If there was such an order, it evidently was destroyed. (The joke in
August 1945 was that the smoke of the last raid simply morphed into
the smoke of burning documents.) All that appears to exist is a copy
of a radiogram explaining *how* to dispose of the prisoners when the
order was given or when local conditions mandated it.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Matt Wiser]

Cub Driver > wrote:
>
>>?I've heard similar stories, but that the kill
>order
>>was to go into effect once the invasion of
>Japan began.
>
>If there was such an order, it evidently was
>destroyed. (The joke in
>August 1945 was that the smoke of the last raid
>simply morphed into
>the smoke of burning documents.) All that appears
>to exist is a copy
>of a radiogram explaining *how* to dispose of
>the prisoners when the
>order was given or when local conditions mandated
>it.
>
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email:
>
>see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
>and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
That didn't keep several Class B war criminals from getting their necks
stretched at Sugamo Prison for issuing the orders and sending them. Do we
know who issued it? Was it the War Minister, General Anaimi? He at least
committed hara-kiri on the 15th and kept himself out of the dock. Some of
his subordinates weren't so lucky.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Cub Driver]

About orders to execute American PWs in the event of an American
invasion of Japan:

>That didn't keep several Class B war criminals from getting their necks
>stretched at Sugamo Prison for issuing the orders and sending them

Who?

I am curious how people could have been hanged for issuing an order
that (as I understand it) was never discovered. All that I have ever
seen published was the order as it was logged into one Japanese
command's headquarters.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com