Modern aces

[Jukka O. Kauppinen]

Associate asked interesting question.

Is there any kind of listing of "modern" jet aces? And are any of those
in service today?

I'd guess best bet are the Israelis. Elsewhere some are from Vietnam
(US, Vietnam, Russian?) and what else?

There was air to air fighting at Eritrean-Etiopian war but I'd dare to
guess that total losses can be counted with one hand?

I'd limit the list to piloted aircraft also (no missiles, drones or
choppers).

jok

[JDupre5762]

>Associate asked interesting question.
>
>Is there any kind of listing of "modern" jet aces? And are any of those
>in service today?
>
>I'd guess best bet are the Israelis. Elsewhere some are from Vietnam
>(US, Vietnam, Russian?) and what else?
>
jok

There are several websites and a number of books. The Israelis have over 35
pilots who qualify as ace with scores from 5 to 17. There last ace probably
qualfied in the early 1980's. Some of them are certainly still in the reserves
if not active duty. Giora Even who scored 17 was still flying reserve fighter
missions in the F-16 in his late 50s just a few years ago.

There are apparently quite a number of aces in Iran from the war against Iraq.
I am not sure how historians or other experts greet their claims which are
apparently only recently known in the west.

The US had two pilot aces in Vietnam, one Navy and one Air Force each claiming
five and three Weapons Officers two Air Force and one Navy. As important as
the rear seater is in a two seat fighter aircraft there is to me something a
little disengenuous about crediting them as aces. For example both Navy aces
flew together as a team. To compare their claims at first glance it seems they
downed ten aircraft together and there is a photo of thier aircraft with ten
victory markings but in fact together they only destroyed five. Of the Air
Forces Weapons Officer aces one scored four with the one pilot ace.

The Vietnamese had at least a dozen aces and maybe more. The Vietnamese did
include drones in thier victory claims. At least one Vietnamese ace has had
his 7 claims studied and there is a corresponding American loss for every
claim.

I don't think there is a valid claim for a fighter ace since the early 1980s.
For Desert Storm and the campaigns over the Balkans the highest total appears
to be 3. For the Fleet Air Arm in the Falklands I think the highest score was
4.

One last area is the Peruvian aerial drug smuggling interdiction campaign where
dozens of aircraft have been shot down. I hardly think this qualifies as air
combat though.

John Dupre'

[Bjørnar Bolsøy]

(JDupre5762) wrote in
:


> One last area is the Peruvian aerial drug smuggling interdiction
> campaign where dozens of aircraft have been shot down. I hardly
> think this qualifies as air combat though.

An interesting note on that:


http://lacc.fiu.edu/PUBLICATIONS_resources/hemisphere/vol6num2/menze
l.html

"A two year tally by early 1992 indicated that some 124 aircraft
had been reported as shot down (out of an estimated total of
some 2,000 flights) and things were thought to be going
reasonably well until May 1992, when the Peruvian Air Force
shot down one of SOUTHCOM's C-130s on a clandestine
reconnaissance mission."


Regards...

[John Carrier]

> The US had two pilot aces in Vietnam, one Navy and one Air Force each
claiming
> five and three Weapons Officers two Air Force and one Navy. As important
as
> the rear seater is in a two seat fighter aircraft there is to me something
a
> little disengenuous about crediting them as aces. For example both Navy
aces
> flew together as a team. To compare their claims at first glance it seems
they
> downed ten aircraft together and there is a photo of thier aircraft with
ten
> victory markings but in fact together they only destroyed five.

Well, the RIO gets the same grave or prison cell if you screw up. It seems
only fair he shares the credit for the kills. A good RIO is worth his
weight in gold. A fair to middlin' one isn't worth 300 pounds of JP. I've
experienced both.

I've never seen a publicity shot of the Cunningham/Driscoll jet with ten
kills displayed, just the five.

R / John

[Krztalizer]

Howdy John.

>
>I've never seen a publicity shot of the Cunningham/Driscoll jet with ten
>kills displayed, just the five.
>

neither have I - if it was painted that way, chances are that it was for a
one-time photo op. Cunningham's jet is portrayed in flight at the San Diego
Aerospace Museum, trailing a suspended MiG 17 in NVN colors - Duke's bird is
painted with five stars, just the way I have seen in VN air war books.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[John Walker]

Jukka O. Kauppinen > wrote in
message ...
>
> Associate asked interesting question.
>
> Is there any kind of listing of "modern" jet aces? And are any of those
> in service today?
>
> I'd guess best bet are the Israelis. Elsewhere some are from Vietnam
> (US, Vietnam, Russian?) and what else?
>
> There was air to air fighting at Eritrean-Etiopian war but I'd dare to
> guess that total losses can be counted with one hand?
>
> I'd limit the list to piloted aircraft also (no missiles, drones or
> choppers).
>
> jok

Perhaps the Iranians and Iraqis may have generated some high-scoring pilots?
There's a recent Osprey book about Iranian F4 units but I haven't looked at
it in detail.

John



---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release Date: 26/12/03

[JDupre5762]

>From: "John Carrier"

> For example both Navy
>aces
>> flew together as a team. To compare their claims at first glance it seems
>they
>> downed ten aircraft together and there is a photo of thier aircraft with
>ten
>> victory markings but in fact
>together they only destroyed five.

>Well, the RIO gets the same grave or prison cell if you screw up. It seems
>only fair he shares the credit for the kills. A good RIO is worth his
>weight in gold. A fair to middlin' one isn't worth 300 pounds of JP. I've
>experienced both.

All true I am sure and it is a trivial thing compared to all that a combat
aircrew must deal with and be prepared for to question how victory claims are
credited or painted on an aircraft. Certainly the RIO deserves credit. I
gather that early in the war the Air Force credited each one of a two man crew
ony half credit for each victory so that for many years Robin Olds was
officially credited for only 4 half victories. I suppose there is no way of
establishing credit that would please everyone and certainly the crews actually
involved know best who deserves it.

>I've never seen a publicity shot of the Cunningham/Driscoll jet with ten
>kills displayed, just the five.
>

I checked my books and found the photo but it shows Cunningham and Driscoll in
an F-4 with 8 victory markings. This is a signed photo to the author Chris
Shores. The markings are small Vietnamese flags and are on the right side of
the aircraft. Maybe these are the kill markings credited to an individual
aircraft? The photo doesn't show bureau numbers though the tactical number
seems to start with 10..... and is from the book Air Aces

John Dupre'

[Matt Wiser]

"John Walker" > wrote:
>Jukka O. Kauppinen >
>wrote in
>message ...
>>
>> Associate asked interesting question.
>>
>> Is there any kind of listing of "modern" jet
>aces? And are any of those
>> in service today?
>>
>> I'd guess best bet are the Israelis. Elsewhere
>some are from Vietnam
>> (US, Vietnam, Russian?) and what else?
>>
>> There was air to air fighting at Eritrean-Etiopian
>war but I'd dare to
>> guess that total losses can be counted with
>one hand?
>>
>> I'd limit the list to piloted aircraft also
>(no missiles, drones or
>> choppers).
>>
>> jok
>
>Perhaps the Iranians and Iraqis may have generated
>some high-scoring pilots?
>There's a recent Osprey book about Iranian F4
>units but I haven't looked at
>it in detail.
>
>John
>
>
>
>---
>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
>Version: 6.0.556 / Virus Database: 348 - Release
>Date: 26/12/03
>
>
>
I have the Osprey book. On ACIG.org it has a list of IRIAF kills: an A.
Hoda of the IRIAF's 61st TFW in an F-4E scored five kills; but it took the
man eight years to do it. Another pilot, J. Zandi, scored five kills as an
F-14 pilot with 81st TFW (3x Mirage F-1, two MiG-23), over the eight-year
war. Perhaps others made ace, but still a lot of gaps in info.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Matt Wiser]

(JDupre5762) wrote:
>>From: "John Carrier"
>
>> For example both Navy
>>aces
>>> flew together as a team. To compare their
>claims at first glance it seems
>>they
>>> downed ten aircraft together and there is
>a photo of thier aircraft with
>>ten
>>> victory markings but in fact
>>together they only destroyed five.
>
>>Well, the RIO gets the same grave or prison
>cell if you screw up. It seems
>>only fair he shares the credit for the kills.
> A good RIO is worth his
>>weight in gold. A fair to middlin' one isn't
>worth 300 pounds of JP. I've
>>experienced both.
>
>All true I am sure and it is a trivial thing
>compared to all that a combat
>aircrew must deal with and be prepared for to
>question how victory claims are
>credited or painted on an aircraft. Certainly
>the RIO deserves credit. I
>gather that early in the war the Air Force credited
>each one of a two man crew
>ony half credit for each victory so that for
>many years Robin Olds was
>officially credited for only 4 half victories.
> I suppose there is no way of
>establishing credit that would please everyone
>and certainly the crews actually
>involved know best who deserves it.
>
>>I've never seen a publicity shot of the Cunningham/Driscoll
>jet with ten
>>kills displayed, just the five.
>>
>
>I checked my books and found the photo but it
>shows Cunningham and Driscoll in
>an F-4 with 8 victory markings. This is a signed
>photo to the author Chris
>Shores. The markings are small Vietnamese flags
>and are on the right side of
>the aircraft. Maybe these are the kill markings
>credited to an individual
>aircraft? The photo doesn't show bureau numbers
>though the tactical number
>seems to start with 10..... and is from the
>book Air Aces
>
>John Dupre'
>
>
I've seen that picture in The Hook magazine; those kill flags refer to
all kills scored by their squadron, VF-96.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Tom Cooper]

"Jukka O. Kauppinen" > wrote in
message ...
>
> Associate asked interesting question.
>
> Is there any kind of listing of "modern" jet aces? And are any of those
> in service today?
>
> I'd guess best bet are the Israelis. Elsewhere some are from Vietnam
> (US, Vietnam, Russian?) and what else?

The Israelis should have the leading ace of the last 30-35 years, Giora
Epstein, with 17 confirmed kills, as well as several additional jocks with
more than 8 or 10 kills to their credit.

The leading ace of the last 24 years was (then) Maj. Jalal Zandi, IRIAF, an
F-14 pilot with 8 confirmed and three (or four) probables to his credit,
scored between 1980 and 1988 (Zandi rose to the rank of Lt.Gen., before
dying of "heart problems", two years back). Although many infos are still
missing, so far at least ten Iranian aces from the war with Iraq were
identified, most of which scored between 6 and 9 kills. A single Iraqi
(MiG-21 and MiG-25-pilot) with five confirmed and up to eight "probables"
(i.e. certainly unconfirmable) kills is known too (as well as approx a dozen
of other Iraqi pilots with everything between two and four kills), but it
appears at least one of his "kills" was actually an Algerian biz-jet.

More infos about Iranian F-14-kills will become available in the book
"Iranian F-14 Units in Combat", which is to follow in Osprey's "Combat
Aircraft" series, sometimes later this year.

Officially, the top Iranian ace of that war - Lt. Gen. Abbas Baba'ie -
however, should have "scored" up to 32 kills. The "problem" in his case is
that he never qualified as a pilot of even an F-5 but was always sitting in
the back, controlling pilots considered "disloyal" by the regime in Tehran,
and taking care these to obey Mullah's orders. Aside from this, between 1979
and 1986 he was presiding different sorts of courts responsible for
executions of over 300 Iranian officers and pilots: consequently, the
surviving IRIAF officers and pilots do not want even to hear his name, nor
to think about talking about him or crediting him for anything (except the
deaths of so many of Iranian pilots). Eventually, Baba'ie might have indeed
been there when 32 different kills were scored by (qualified) IRIAF F-14-
and F-4-pilots (after all, the IRIAF scored over 450 air-to-air kills
against Iraqis), but there are more than "few serious doubts" about his
ability to help them at all - and thus be credited for any of the kills in
question.

> There was air to air fighting at Eritrean-Etiopian war but I'd dare to
> guess that total losses can be counted with one hand?

Actually not: there was a total of approx a dozen of air-to-air combats,
with both sides losing planes. It was a fairly vivid air war with serious
contest for air superiority. More infos are now available in the book
"African MiGs", see here:
http://www.acig.org/afmig/

Tom Cooper

Co-Author:
Iran-Iraq War in the Air, 1980-1988:
http://www.acig.org/pg1/content.php

Iranian F-4 Phantom II Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6585

Arab MiG-19 & MiG-21 Units in Combat
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/title_detail.php/title=S6550~ser=COM

[Cub Driver]

On 10 Jan 2004 02:45:01 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

>Certainly the RIO deserves credit.

In WWI fighters, especiallly the early ones, the gunner was the man
who shot down the enemy aircraft, and he was credited with the kill
along with the pilot.

Having demonstrated their quick reflexes and immunity to air sickness,
some (perhaps many) of these men were re-trained as pilots. (It didn't
take long--a few weeks, with due allowance for England's unfriendly
flying weather.)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Michael]

(JDupre5762) wrote in message >...
> >Associate asked interesting question.
> >
> >Is there any kind of listing of "modern" jet aces? And are any of those
> >in service today?
> >
> >I'd guess best bet are the Israelis. Elsewhere some are from Vietnam
> >(US, Vietnam, Russian?) and what else?
> >
> jok
>
> There are several websites and a number of books. The Israelis have over 35
> pilots who qualify as ace with scores from 5 to 17. There last ace probably
> qualfied in the early 1980's. Some of them are certainly still in the reserves
> if not active duty. Giora Even who scored 17 was still flying reserve fighter
> missions in the F-16 in his late 50s just a few years ago.
>
> There are apparently quite a number of aces in Iran from the war against Iraq.
> I am not sure how historians or other experts greet their claims which are
> apparently only recently known in the west.
>
> The US had two pilot aces in Vietnam, one Navy and one Air Force each claiming
> five and three Weapons Officers two Air Force and one Navy. As important as
> the rear seater is in a two seat fighter aircraft there is to me something a
> little disengenuous about crediting them as aces. For example both Navy aces
> flew together as a team. To compare their claims at first glance it seems they
> downed ten aircraft together and there is a photo of thier aircraft with ten
> victory markings but in fact together they only destroyed five.

This is more than likely the score of all of VF-96 that you're seeing
displayed, not just Cunningham and Driscoll's score.

~Michael

[JDupre5762]

>To compare their claims at first glance it seems they
>> downed ten aircraft together and there is a photo of thier aircraft with
>ten
>> victory markings but in fact together they only destroyed five.
>

>This is more than likely the score of all of VF-96 that you're seeing
>displayed, not just Cunningham and Driscoll's score.

>From: (Michael)

Thanks, that would explain it. I found the photo and it actually shows 8
Vietnamese flags on the right hand splitter plate with Cunningham and Driscoll
in their respective seats.

John Dupre'