HK CAWS ...for Ariennya

[robert arndt]

So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
world's most advanced back in its day:

http://www.gurpsmaster.de/caws.jpg

But don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you about the excellent
arms of Beretta, Franchi, or Benelli. I just wanted to show you that
HK DID try the autoshotgun project for the US and it didn't proceed.

Rob

[Kevin Brooks]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
> So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
> world's most advanced back in its day:

Another "German products uber alles" post from the goofball who just told us
such posts of his are in the minority category...

Brooks

<snip>

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
"Kevin Brooks" > wrote:

> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
> > world's most advanced back in its day:
>
> Another "German products uber alles" post from the goofball who just told us
> such posts of his are in the minority category...

Hell, he's posted four since I went out to *dinner* tonight...

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[Charles Gray]

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:03:03 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

>
>"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
>> So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
>> world's most advanced back in its day:
>
>Another "German products uber alles" post from the goofball who just told us
>such posts of his are in the minority category...
>
>Brooks
>
><snip>
>
One question-- I thought shotguns were not allowed in combat by the
geneva convention, but allowed for peacekeeping police duties.
Or was that changed since the treaty was made. (Or more likely, am I
misremembering something).

[Chad Irby]

In article >,
Charles Gray > wrote:

> One question-- I thought shotguns were not allowed in combat by the
> geneva convention, but allowed for peacekeeping police duties.
> Or was that changed since the treaty was made. (Or more likely, am I
> misremembering something).

It's the Hague Convention of 1899, not the Geneva Convention.

The relevant passage says (among a lot of other things), that is is
specifically prohibited "To employ arms, projectiles, or material of a
nature to cause superfluous injury." That's been interpreted to include
shotguns. Of course, it was also supposed to prohibit bombing from he
air and using chemical weapons, and we know how well that worked out in
the next 20 years or so.

If it's still in effect, nobody seems to be paying any attention to it,
since pretty much every military in the world uses shotguns.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

[robert arndt]

Charles Gray > wrote in message >...
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:03:03 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
> >> world's most advanced back in its day:
> >
> >Another "German products uber alles" post from the goofball who just told us
> >such posts of his are in the minority category...
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> One question-- I thought shotguns were not allowed in combat by the
> geneva convention, but allowed for peacekeeping police duties.
> Or was that changed since the treaty was made. (Or more likely, am I
> misremembering something).

Loopholes like special police units, anti-terror units, govt. VIP-
protection, and peacekeeping...

Rob

[robert arndt]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message >...
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
> > world's most advanced back in its day:
>
> Another "German products uber alles" post from the goofball who just told us
> such posts of his are in the minority category...
>
> Brooks
>
> <snip>

Ariennya threw up the challenge, so here is the response. Like I said
earlier people who don't know about German tech are always going to
get a response from me. Has it ever occurred to you that some other
folks might not have ever heard of the HK CAWS either? If not, it
doesn't hurt to post on it does it? Just like a lot of people are
unaware that Walther made SMGs postwar like the MPL or the Benelli SMG
of the '70s that fired its entire cartridge, casing and all.
Knowledge is good :)

Rob

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Charles Gray
> writes
> One question-- I thought shotguns were not allowed in combat by the
>geneva convention, but allowed for peacekeeping police duties.
> Or was that changed since the treaty was made. (Or more likely, am I
>misremembering something).

The US brought shotguns to the front line in 1916 (Mexico) and again in
1917, where they were rather effective weapons for trench work (not much
use for _getting_ to the trench, but that's what a weapon mix is for).
Apart from having to replace cardboard with brass in the shell cases,
they apparently worked very well.

The Germans protested that shotguns were "inhumane" and threatened
reprisals, the US refused to back down, and there the issue rested: the
US produced and issued a quantity of shotguns, and reissued them in WW2
in the Pacific.

Shotguns aren't widely used in combat, but do find useful niches for
(for example) urban and jungle work. UK forces used them in Malaya, for
instance.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Ariennya Romani]

(robert arndt) wrote in message >...
> So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
> world's most advanced back in its day:
>
> http://www.gurpsmaster.de/caws.jpg
>
> But don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you about the excellent
> arms of Beretta, Franchi, or Benelli. I just wanted to show you that
> HK DID try the autoshotgun project for the US and it didn't proceed.
>
> Rob

That is one ugly shotgun. You Germans make boxy, unstylish arms that
cannot compare to Beretta, Franchi, or Benelli.

Ariennya Romani

[James Dandy]

Charles Gray > wrote in message >...
> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:03:03 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
> >> world's most advanced back in its day:
> >
> >Another "German products uber alles" post from the goofball who just told us
> >such posts of his are in the minority category...
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> ><snip>
> >
> One question-- I thought shotguns were not allowed in combat by the
> geneva convention, but allowed for peacekeeping police duties.
> Or was that changed since the treaty was made. (Or more likely, am I
> misremembering something).

What the hell is this world coming too? Ain't Mossberg and Remington
anything anymore?

German and Italian shotguns?

Hell, I got one for your asses, with the help of Billy

http://www.rps.net/QS/GUNS/jackhammer.jpg

Fight this you Axis scum.

James Dandy

[George Shirley]

Charles Gray wrote:

> On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:03:03 GMT, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>>>So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
>>>world's most advanced back in its day:
>>
>>Another "German products uber alles" post from the goofball who just told us
>>such posts of his are in the minority category...
>>
>>Brooks
>>
>><snip>
>>
> One question-- I thought shotguns were not allowed in combat by the
> geneva convention, but allowed for peacekeeping police duties.
> Or was that changed since the treaty was made. (Or more likely, am I
> misremembering something).

U.S. forces have used shotguns in combat since the beginning of this
nation. Especially in WWII in the Pacific, various manufacturers made
"trench guns" for the gubmint. WWI is where the 20 inch barrel pump gun,
example the Winchester 97 with bayonet lug and metal handguard over the
barrel, made their appearance. Also used as "riot" weapons by MP's and
police. Damned handy in street fighting too.

George

[B2431]

>From: George Shirley

<snip> Also used as "riot" weapons by MP's and
>police. Damned handy in street fighting too.
>
>George
>
Terrific for house clearing. Load them with #6 or 8 shot.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Jeb Hoge]

(Ariennya Romani) wrote in message >...
> (robert arndt) wrote in message >...
> > So, Germans can't match Italian shotguns? Wrong. HK CAWS was the
> > world's most advanced back in its day:
> >
> > http://www.gurpsmaster.de/caws.jpg
> >
> > But don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing with you about the excellent
> > arms of Beretta, Franchi, or Benelli. I just wanted to show you that
> > HK DID try the autoshotgun project for the US and it didn't proceed.
> >
> > Rob
>
> That is one ugly shotgun. You Germans make boxy, unstylish arms that
> cannot compare to Beretta, Franchi, or Benelli.

CAWS was a prototype design that never reached production. HK
prototypes tend to be pretty ugly, really, but usually get improved
form and ergonomics closer to production status. The bigger
disadvantage to the CAWS was the nonstandard ammunition. Read all
about it. http://www.hkpro.com/CAWS.htm