Pre WW1 insignia

[JDupre5762]

Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or roundel
insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition became
apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?

When did the US adopt the Star with a dot insignia? I know that they used a
roundel style similar to the French style in WW1 while in Europe. Did US
aircraft based stateside use the same insignia as the European combat aircraft
or did they use the star?

John Dupre'

[John Keeney]

"JDupre5762" > wrote in message
...
>
> When did the US adopt the Star with a dot insignia? I know that they used
a
> roundel style similar to the French style in WW1 while in Europe. Did US
> aircraft based stateside use the same insignia as the European combat
aircraft
> or did they use the star?

In early 1917 the US adopted its first national markings which included a
white five pointed star on a blue disk, the star having a red circular
center.
Very early the next year the allies talked us into the red-blue-white
roundel to conform with allied styles.
In August of 1919 we reverted back to 1917 national marking of red circle on
white star on blue disk.
In June of '42 the red "meat ball" was removed as being excessively similar
to the Japanese emblem.
For July of '43 the new fashion was the white bars added to the star on
circle, with a red border around the whole works. The red border was traded
in for a blue one fairly quickly as even that much red was though enough to
screw up combat recognition.
It wasn't until '47 that the red bar across the middle of the white bars was
added.
Come the 70s various low visibility adaptations turned the insignia various
shades of gray.

The above neglects the tail markings (various vertical & horizontal striping
combinations) that were part of the national marking scheme into '42.

While the official scheme was pretty much the same the world over, changing
the paint for the national markings was seldom a high priority item,
especially in areas where combat recognition wasn't an issue. I've seen
photos showing planes that displayed the 1917, 1918 and 1919 schemes on
different aircraft of the same unit. In WWII there were state side trainers
that made it through to the end of the war still sporting the pre-'42
markings.

[Marc Reeve]

JDupre5762 > wrote:

> Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
> roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
> became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?
>
> When did the US adopt the Star with a dot insignia? I know that they used
> a roundel style similar to the French style in WW1 while in Europe. Did
> US aircraft based stateside use the same insignia as the European combat
> aircraft or did they use the star?
>
The pilots of the Lafayette Escadrille used the French roundel,
naturally. When the US entered the war, we were flying French planes
with a modified roundel (the order of the colors was altered.). I
believe it was at the instigation of Billy Mitchell that the roundel
with the star and red dot was adopted - something to the effect of "I
don't want my boys flying around with a goddamn target on the side of
their planes."

The red dot, of course, was dropped in 1942.

-Marc

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, Marc Reeve
> writes
>JDupre5762 > wrote:
>
>> Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
>> roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
>> became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?
>>
>> When did the US adopt the Star with a dot insignia? I know that they used
>> a roundel style similar to the French style in WW1 while in Europe. Did
>> US aircraft based stateside use the same insignia as the European combat
>> aircraft or did they use the star?
>>
>The pilots of the Lafayette Escadrille used the French roundel,
>naturally.

I remember, some time ago, seeing a picture of an Escadrille Lafayette
aircraft with large swastikas painted on - and my assumption was that
the pilot must have had a liking for Navaho designs. Can anyone jog my
memory?

Re. the swastika, I was in Jaipur, India, last year, and almost every
auto-taxi had a swastika painted on the front. Big editing job for any
travel film to be shown in Germany, I guess.

And on a practical note; try to avoid taking a cab ride with a driver
who believes in reincarnation....

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[Stephen Harding]

JDupre5762 > wrote:

> Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
> roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
> became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?

The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
short period of time before US entry into WWI.


SMH

[John Mullen]

Stephen Harding wrote:
> JDupre5762 > wrote:
>
>> Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
>> roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
>> became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?
>
>
> The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
> short period of time before US entry into WWI.
>
>

Really?

But:-

1) I always thought the US didn't have much air power until after WW1

2) The Soviet Union certainly didn't exist until 1917, the same year the
US joined the war.

So, how do you mean?

John

[Stephen Harding]

John Mullen wrote:

> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>> JDupre5762 > wrote:
>>
>>> Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
>>> roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for recognition
>>> became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?
>>
>> The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
>> short period of time before US entry into WWI.
>
> Really?

It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.

> But:-
>
> 1) I always thought the US didn't have much air power until after WW1

I think the first US military aircraft dates to about 1909, and red
star emblem dates to pre-1917, in fact pre-1914 IIRC.

> 2) The Soviet Union certainly didn't exist until 1917, the same year the
> US joined the war.

Right. The US red star emblem had been replaced by the roundel by
then.


SMH

[Andreas Parsch]

Stephen Harding wrote:

>
> It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
> Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
> an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
> time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
> find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
> seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.


The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:

http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm


Andreas

[John Mullen]

Andreas Parsch wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
>>
>> It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
>> Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
>> an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
>> time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
>> find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
>> seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.
>
>
>
> The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:
>
> http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm
>
>
> Andreas
>
>
>
Fascinating. Thank you both.

John

[Stephen Harding]

Andreas Parsch wrote:

> Stephen Harding wrote:
>>
>> It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
>> Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
>> an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
>> time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
>> find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
>> seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.
>
> The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:
>
> http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm

Thanks Andreas.

Ya got me off the hook!


SMH

[John Keeney]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> John Mullen wrote:
>
> > Stephen Harding wrote:
> >
> >> JDupre5762 > wrote:
> >>
> >>> Just when did various nations adopt the various cross and cockade or
> >>> roundel insignia? Was it after WW1 started and the need for
recognition
> >>> became apparent or did some nations adopt an insignia before WW1?
> >>
> >> The US actually used a red star (like the Soviets) for a
> >> short period of time before US entry into WWI.
> >
> > Really?
>
> It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
> Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
> an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
> time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
> find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
> seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.
>
> > But:-
> >
> > 1) I always thought the US didn't have much air power until after WW1
>
> I think the first US military aircraft dates to about 1909, and red
> star emblem dates to pre-1917, in fact pre-1914 IIRC.

You have to careful calling that a "national emblem": pre 1917 there
were no national emblems, each service had it's own. The Navy used a
blue anchor from late 1916 until the May 1917 adoption of the red
circle on white star on blue circle emblem.

> > 2) The Soviet Union certainly didn't exist until 1917, the same year the
> > US joined the war.
>
> Right. The US red star emblem had been replaced by the roundel by
> then.
>
>
> SMH

[Marc Reeve]

Andreas Parsch > wrote:
> Stephen Harding wrote:
>
> >
> > It surprised me too. The source for this is the New England Air
> > Museum which had a photograph of a red star marked US plane and
> > an info card stating this was the national marking for a brief
> > time. I checked their page and a general Google search and can't
> > find any more about this, but the source and photo was definitely
> > seen during my last visit to NEAM a few years ago.
>
>
> The USAF museum confirms the 1916 red star:
>
> http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/insignia.htm
>
This site also confirms that I got my facts back-asswards - it was Billy
Mitchell who got the red-blue-white (outside to inside) roundel adopted,
for similarity to our allies' roundels (blue-white-red for the Brits,
red-white-blue for the French.).
> Andreas


--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m