radiocomm question

[TakeFlight]

Had a dual flight the other day at RDU (runway diagram link at bottom
for reference). We requested runway 14 for departure, and ground told
us "taxi to runway 14 via Juliet, Charlie, hold short of 23L" (we were
departing from the general aviation ramp).

So I taxied out, eventually holding short of 23L on Charlie. The
instructor asked if I was going to switch to tower. I told him no,
that we weren't at 14 yet. He insisted that since we were holding
short of 23L that we needed to contact the tower to get across. I
disagreed.

So he called the tower and reported us as "holding short of 23L."
After a landing aircraft rolled by, tower told us to taxi to 14 and
cleared us for takeoff.

In 18 years of flying, I've never run across this before. Is this
something new, peculiar to RDU, or was he just mistaken? Whenever I've
been in this situation before, ground always was the one to tell me to
cross a runway and taxi on to my departing runway. Granted, it could
be the same controller just on a different freq....


http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/00516AD.PDF

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"TakeFlight" wrote:

> So he called the tower and reported us as "holding short of 23L."
> After a landing aircraft rolled by, tower told us to taxi to 14 and
> cleared us for takeoff.
>
> In 18 years of flying, I've never run across this before. Is this
> something new, peculiar to RDU, or was he just mistaken? Whenever I've
> been in this situation before, ground always was the one to tell me to
> cross a runway and taxi on to my departing runway. Granted, it could
> be the same controller just on a different freq....

I would have stayed with ground until ready for takeoff at 14.

Nevertheless, it probably didn't matter much to the controller. At bigger
airports, it might.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Bob F.]

"TakeFlight" > wrote in message
...
> Had a dual flight the other day at RDU (runway diagram link at bottom
> for reference). We requested runway 14 for departure, and ground told
> us "taxi to runway 14 via Juliet, Charlie, hold short of 23L" (we were
> departing from the general aviation ramp).
>
> So I taxied out, eventually holding short of 23L on Charlie. The
> instructor asked if I was going to switch to tower. I told him no,
> that we weren't at 14 yet. He insisted that since we were holding
> short of 23L that we needed to contact the tower to get across. I
> disagreed.
>
> So he called the tower and reported us as "holding short of 23L."
> After a landing aircraft rolled by, tower told us to taxi to 14 and
> cleared us for takeoff.
>
> In 18 years of flying, I've never run across this before. Is this
> something new, peculiar to RDU, or was he just mistaken? Whenever I've
> been in this situation before, ground always was the one to tell me to
> cross a runway and taxi on to my departing runway. Granted, it could
> be the same controller just on a different freq....
>
>
> http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/00516AD.PDF


You stay with ground until you get to the destination that you were told.
The only exception I can think of is if there is some NOTAM, or airport
letter on file and posted.

--
BobF.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"TakeFlight" > wrote in message
...
>
> Had a dual flight the other day at RDU (runway diagram link at bottom
> for reference). We requested runway 14 for departure, and ground told
> us "taxi to runway 14 via Juliet, Charlie, hold short of 23L" (we were
> departing from the general aviation ramp).
>
> So I taxied out, eventually holding short of 23L on Charlie. The
> instructor asked if I was going to switch to tower. I told him no,
> that we weren't at 14 yet. He insisted that since we were holding
> short of 23L that we needed to contact the tower to get across. I
> disagreed.
>
> So he called the tower and reported us as "holding short of 23L."
> After a landing aircraft rolled by, tower told us to taxi to 14 and
> cleared us for takeoff.
>
> In 18 years of flying, I've never run across this before. Is this
> something new, peculiar to RDU, or was he just mistaken? Whenever I've
> been in this situation before, ground always was the one to tell me to
> cross a runway and taxi on to my departing runway. Granted, it could
> be the same controller just on a different freq....
>

Your instructor was mistaken. You should remain with ground control until
ready to request takeoff clearance unless told otherwise.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 10, 12:21*pm, TakeFlight > wrote:
> Had a dual flight the other day at RDU (runway diagram link at bottom
> for reference). We requested runway 14 for departure, and ground told
> us "taxi to runway 14 via Juliet, Charlie, hold short of 23L" (we were
> departing from the general aviation ramp).

Yes, this really depends on the airport and is very common when two
runway's approach section are right on top of each other. I've seen
the same thing at Albuquerque international. When I asked ground to
cross the "hold short" runway they thought I was an idiot and told me
to ask tower. In anycase, your CFI probably had this inside
information to avoid ground from thinking you're crazy. As pilots we
learn the general rules for airports all over the place but some
controller who's only worked ground at one airport probably thinks its
normal and us "out-of-town" pilots are odd.

-Robert, CFII

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>
>Your instructor was mistaken. You should remain with ground control until
>ready to request takeoff clearance unless told otherwise.

Agreed. I have noticed at quite a few airports that the tower likes to
handle the crossing of active runways. If this is the case, Ground should
have instructed you to contact the tower when holding short at Charlie.

If the runway were obviously clear and it looked like I'd been forgotten, I
would have contacted Ground and reminded them that I was holding short of 23L.
Since you were holding for landing traffic, it's quite possible that Ground
would have instructed you to continue your taxi once the landing traffic was
clear.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200803/1

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>> In 18 years of flying, I've never run across this before. Is this
>> something new, peculiar to RDU, or was he just mistaken? Whenever I've
>> been in this situation before, ground always was the one to tell me to
>> cross a runway and taxi on to my departing runway. Granted, it could
>> be the same controller just on a different freq....
>>
>
> Your instructor was mistaken. You should remain with ground control until
> ready to request takeoff clearance unless told otherwise.


I agree. I'd have stayed with ground until I was ready for takeoff from the
runway I was going to use. When I was ready to actually take off after runup,
I'd switch to tower to get the go-ahead to actually enter the runway for either
immediate departure or taxi and hold, as the case may be.

I flew out of RDU Monday through Friday for a time as a courier pilot and never
heard of this before. And RDU is probably busy enough to have its own ground
controller.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[John T]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message

>
> I would have stayed with ground until ready for takeoff at 14.
>
> Nevertheless, it probably didn't matter much to the controller. At
> bigger airports, it might.

RDU isn't exactly a backwater field, but I agree with staying with ground.

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
http://sage1solutions.com/products
NEW! FlyteBalance v2.0 (W&B); FlyteLog v2.0 (Logbook)
____________________

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"John T" wrote:

>
> RDU isn't exactly a backwater field, but I agree with staying with ground.

Didn't say it was, but I bet it's more relaxed than a busy Bravo like
Houston Hobby, for example.

They don't care much for home-made radio procedure at HOU.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

[Bob Gardner]

Your instructor was wrong. Ground control owns everything up to the hold
line for the runway in use.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE

"TakeFlight" > wrote in message
...
> Had a dual flight the other day at RDU (runway diagram link at bottom
> for reference). We requested runway 14 for departure, and ground told
> us "taxi to runway 14 via Juliet, Charlie, hold short of 23L" (we were
> departing from the general aviation ramp).
>
> So I taxied out, eventually holding short of 23L on Charlie. The
> instructor asked if I was going to switch to tower. I told him no,
> that we weren't at 14 yet. He insisted that since we were holding
> short of 23L that we needed to contact the tower to get across. I
> disagreed.
>
> So he called the tower and reported us as "holding short of 23L."
> After a landing aircraft rolled by, tower told us to taxi to 14 and
> cleared us for takeoff.
>
> In 18 years of flying, I've never run across this before. Is this
> something new, peculiar to RDU, or was he just mistaken? Whenever I've
> been in this situation before, ground always was the one to tell me to
> cross a runway and taxi on to my departing runway. Granted, it could
> be the same controller just on a different freq....
>
>
> http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/00516AD.PDF

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 11, 9:25*am, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> Your instructor was wrong. Ground control owns everything up to the hold
> line for the runway in use.

Wrong for knowing local procedures? You really shouldn't put that out
there with the information we have here. For all you know he knows the
local procedures better than you. Again, there are airports where
tower takes this resposibility. Its not wrong to ask ground first but
they then just ask you to call the tower and ask them. I've been to
such ariports and I'm sure you have too. If this CFI was using local
procedures knowledge, it sure doesn't make him "wrong".

-Robert, CFII

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
>
> Wrong for knowing local procedures? You really shouldn't put that out
> there with the information we have here. For all you know he knows the
> local procedures better than you. Again, there are airports where
> tower takes this resposibility. Its not wrong to ask ground first but
> they then just ask you to call the tower and ask them. I've been to
> such ariports and I'm sure you have too. If this CFI was using local
> procedures knowledge, it sure doesn't make him "wrong".
>

The instructor was wrong. If local procedures call for the pilot to be on
tower frequency for runway crossing instructions the ground controller would
have instructed the pilot to contact tower.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 11, 10:03*am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in ...

> The instructor was wrong. *If local procedures call for the pilot to be on
> tower frequency for runway crossing instructions the ground controller would
> have instructed the pilot to contact tower.

You would think but when I've had the same experience ground has also
assumed I knew to ask tower. The instructor is not wrong simply
because the controller forgot the instructions. If this CFI flys out
of this airport several times a day and knows the procedure, it does
not make him wrong simply because ATC forgot to state the procedure.

-Robert

[TakeFlight]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> You would think but when I've had the same experience ground has also
> assumed I knew to ask tower. The instructor is not wrong simply
> because the controller forgot the instructions. If this CFI flys out
> of this airport several times a day and knows the procedure, it does
> not make him wrong simply because ATC forgot to state the procedure.
>
> -Robert

I've flown out of KRVS in Tulsa, OK where they have an unusual
procedure: after taxiing, you report your "run-up complete" to ground
and they sequence you for takeoff and give you a positive handoff to
tower when you're #1 for takeoff. Sometimes they tell you this when
you call up ground, sometimes they don't.

I'm not a controller, but doesn't the ground controller have to get
permission from (or at least coordinate with) the runway's
"owner" (tower) before allowing you to cross anyway?


Dan Luke wrote:

> Didn't say it was, but I bet it's more relaxed than a busy Bravo like
> Houston Hobby, for example.

> They don't care much for home-made radio procedure at HOU.

Funny thing, I flew out of Hobby too back when they were still an
ARSA.... But RDU is busy enough that they don't generally allow any
training activity (touch & go's) there.

Thanks for the sanity check, all!

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
>
> You would think but when I've had the same experience ground has also
> assumed I knew to ask tower.
>

An incorrect assumption.


>
> The instructor is not wrong simply because the controller forgot the
> instructions. If this CFI flys out of this airport several times a day
> and knows the
> procedure, it does not make him wrong simply because ATC forgot to state
> the
> procedure.
>

The procedure is to remain on ground control frequency until ready to
request
takeoff clearance. The instructor was wrong because he told the student
something contrary to that procedure.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"TakeFlight" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm not a controller, but doesn't the ground controller have to get
> permission from (or at least coordinate with) the runway's
> "owner" (tower) before allowing you to cross anyway?
>

Yes.

[John Clonts]

On Mar 11, 1:08*pm, TakeFlight > wrote:

> Dan Luke wrote:
> > Didn't say it was, but I bet it's more relaxed than a busy Bravo like
> > Houston Hobby, for example.
> > They don't care much for home-made radio procedure at HOU.
>
> Funny thing, I flew out of Hobby too back when they were still an
> ARSA.... *

Hey, I did too, when were you there? I trained out of Hobby in 84-85!

Cheers,
John Clonts
Temple, Texas

[TakeFlight]

John Clonts wrote:
>
> Hey, I did too, when were you there? I trained out of Hobby in 84-85!
>
> Cheers,
> John Clonts
> Temple, Texas

89-90, American Flyers. Then I flew at Bay Area Aero Club at SPX and
the club at Ellington Field.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 11, 12:25*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in ...

> The procedure is to remain on ground control frequency until ready to
> request
> takeoff clearance. *The instructor was wrong because he told the student
> something contrary to that procedure

True the instructor was wrong. I would be wrong too, in fact next time
I'm at ABQ I'll be wrong again because I'll continue to follow the
procedure requested by ATC despite that fact that its wrong. So we
agree, he was wrong, I'm wrong, and he and I will continue to be
wrong.

-Robert

[Bob Gardner]

This information, taken from the Air Traffic Control Handbook, may be
useful:

"3-1-3. USE OF ACTIVE RUNWAYS

The local controller has primary responsibility for operations conducted on
the active runway and must control the use of those runways. Positive
coordination and control is required as follows:

NOTE-
Exceptions may be authorized only as provided in para 1-1-10, Constraints
Governing Supplements and Procedural Deviations, and FAAO 7210.3, Facility
Operation and Administration, Use of Active Runways, para 10-1-7, where
justified by extraordinary circumstances at specific locations.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Constraints Governing Supplements and Procedural Deviations,
Para 1-1-10.
FAAO 7210.3, Use of Active Runways, Para 10-1-7.

a. Ground control must obtain approval from local control before
authorizing an aircraft or a vehicle to cross or use any portion of an
active runway. The coordination shall include the point/intersection at the
runway where the operation will occur.

PHRASEOLOGY-
CROSS (runway) AT (point/intersection).
b. When the local controller authorizes another controller to cross an
active runway, the local controller shall verbally specify the runway to be
crossed and the point/intersection at the runway where the operation will
occur preceded by the word "cross."

PHRASEOLOGY-
CROSS (runway) AT (point/intersection).

c. The ground controller shall advise the local controller when the
coordinated runway operation is complete. This may be accomplished verbally
or through visual aids as specified by a facility directive.

d. USA/USAF/USN NOT APPLICABLE. Authorization for aircraft/vehicles to
taxi/proceed on or along an active runway, for purposes other than crossing,
shall be provided via direct communications on the appropriate local control
frequency. This authorization may be provided on the ground control
frequency after coordination with local control is completed for those
operations specifically described in a facility directive.

NOTE-
The USA, USAF, and USN establish local operating procedures in accordance
with, respectively, USA, USAF, and USN directives.

e. The local controller shall coordinate with the ground controller before
using a runway not previously designated as active.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Coordination Between Local and Ground Controllers, Para 3-1-4.

3-1-4. COORDINATION BETWEEN LOCAL AND GROUND CONTROLLERS

Local and ground controllers shall exchange information as necessary for the
safe and efficient use of airport runways and movement areas. This may be
accomplished via verbal means, flight progress strips, other written
information, or automation displays. As a minimum, provide aircraft
identification and applicable runway/intersection/taxiway information as
follows:

a. Ground control shall notify local control when a departing aircraft has
been taxied to a runway other than one previously designated as active.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Use of Active Runways, Para 3-1-3.
FAAO 7210.3, Selecting Active Runways, Para 10-1-6.
{New-2007-17 b. revised August 30, 2007}

b. Ground control must notify local control of any aircraft taxied to an
intersection for takeoff. This notification may be accomplished by verbal
means or by flight progress strips.

REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Wake Turbulence Separation for Intersection Departures, Para
3-9-7.

c. When the runways in use for landing/departing aircraft are not visible
from the tower or the aircraft using them are not visible on radar, advise
the local/ground controller of the aircraft's location before releasing the
aircraft to the other controller."

Bob Gardner

"TakeFlight" > wrote in message
...
> Had a dual flight the other day at RDU (runway diagram link at bottom
> for reference). We requested runway 14 for departure, and ground told
> us "taxi to runway 14 via Juliet, Charlie, hold short of 23L" (we were
> departing from the general aviation ramp).
>
> So I taxied out, eventually holding short of 23L on Charlie. The
> instructor asked if I was going to switch to tower. I told him no,
> that we weren't at 14 yet. He insisted that since we were holding
> short of 23L that we needed to contact the tower to get across. I
> disagreed.
>
> So he called the tower and reported us as "holding short of 23L."
> After a landing aircraft rolled by, tower told us to taxi to 14 and
> cleared us for takeoff.
>
> In 18 years of flying, I've never run across this before. Is this
> something new, peculiar to RDU, or was he just mistaken? Whenever I've
> been in this situation before, ground always was the one to tell me to
> cross a runway and taxi on to my departing runway. Granted, it could
> be the same controller just on a different freq....
>
>
> http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0802/00516AD.PDF

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 11, 2:03*pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> This information, taken from the Air Traffic Control Handbook, may be
> useful:

Again, since it sounds like we're talking about a local procedure
you'd have to get a copy of that.

-Robert

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:31:50 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote in
>:

>On Mar 11, 2:03*pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>> This information, taken from the Air Traffic Control Handbook, may be
>> useful:
>
>Again, since it sounds like we're talking about a local procedure
>you'd have to get a copy of that.
>
>-Robert


That would be useful information. Has anyone bothered to consult the
references in this note:

NOTE-
Exceptions may be authorized only as provided in para 1-1-10,
Constraints Governing Supplements and Procedural Deviations, and
FAAO 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration, Use of Active
Runways, para 10-1-7, where justified by extraordinary
circumstances at specific locations.

[Bob Gardner]

I did, and found nothing on point except dealing with crossing the active
runway. In the OPs case, they were not crossing the active.

Bob Gardner

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:31:50 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>>On Mar 11, 2:03 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
>>> This information, taken from the Air Traffic Control Handbook, may be
>>> useful:
>>
>>Again, since it sounds like we're talking about a local procedure
>>you'd have to get a copy of that.
>>
>>-Robert
>
>
> That would be useful information. Has anyone bothered to consult the
> references in this note:
>
> NOTE-
> Exceptions may be authorized only as provided in para 1-1-10,
> Constraints Governing Supplements and Procedural Deviations, and
> FAAO 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration, Use of Active
> Runways, para 10-1-7, where justified by extraordinary
> circumstances at specific locations.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

On Mar 11, 3:25*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> True the instructor was wrong. I would be wrong too, in fact next time
> I'm at ABQ I'll be wrong again because I'll continue to follow the
> procedure requested by ATC despite that fact that its wrong. So we
> agree, he was wrong, I'm wrong, and he and I will continue to be
> wrong.
>

The procedure is to remain with ground control until ready to request
takeoff clearance unless told otherwise. If ground control instructs
you
to contact tower at an earlier time then it's fine.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

On Mar 11, 5:31*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
> Again, since it sounds like we're talking about a local procedure
> you'd have to get a copy of that.
>

There are no local procedures at RDU or ABQ that deviate from the
national standards in this area.

[John T]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message

>
> Didn't say it was, but I bet it's more relaxed than a busy Bravo like
> Houston Hobby, for example.
>
> They don't care much for home-made radio procedure at HOU.

:)

--
John T
http://sage1solutions.com/blogs/TknoFlyer
http://sage1solutions.com/products
NEW! FlyteBalance v2.0 (W&B); FlyteLog v2.0 (Logbook)
____________________

[Don Poitras]

Bob Gardner > wrote:
> I did, and found nothing on point except dealing with crossing the active
> runway. In the OPs case, they were not crossing the active.

They weren't crossing the runway they were going to depart on, but they
were certainly crossing an active runway. Runway 14 is never used for
landing (somebody told me it would scare the guys in the tower to have
planes get that close to them.) Small planes are often sent to land on
32 as to avoid interfering with commercial traffic on the longer parallel
runways. I remember the first time I was sent to take off on 14. I was
like, "One Four? What the heck is One Four?" You'd also never be sent
to depart from 32.


> Bob Gardner

> "Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:31:50 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
> > > wrote in
> > >:
> >
> >>On Mar 11, 2:03 pm, "Bob Gardner" > wrote:
> >>> This information, taken from the Air Traffic Control Handbook, may be
> >>> useful:
> >>
> >>Again, since it sounds like we're talking about a local procedure
> >>you'd have to get a copy of that.
> >>
> >>-Robert
> >
> >
> > That would be useful information. Has anyone bothered to consult the
> > references in this note:
> >
> > NOTE-
> > Exceptions may be authorized only as provided in para 1-1-10,
> > Constraints Governing Supplements and Procedural Deviations, and
> > FAAO 7210.3, Facility Operation and Administration, Use of Active
> > Runways, para 10-1-7, where justified by extraordinary
> > circumstances at specific locations.


--
Don Poitras

[Bob Gardner]

FAA Order 7210.3 can be accessed from the FAA.gov home page by clicking on
Airports and Air Traffic, and then on Orders.

Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
On Mar 10, 12:21 pm, TakeFlight > wrote:
> Had a dual flight the other day at RDU (runway diagram link at bottom
> for reference). We requested runway 14 for departure, and ground told
> us "taxi to runway 14 via Juliet, Charlie, hold short of 23L" (we were
> departing from the general aviation ramp).

Yes, this really depends on the airport and is very common when two
runway's approach section are right on top of each other. I've seen
the same thing at Albuquerque international. When I asked ground to
cross the "hold short" runway they thought I was an idiot and told me
to ask tower. In anycase, your CFI probably had this inside
information to avoid ground from thinking you're crazy. As pilots we
learn the general rules for airports all over the place but some
controller who's only worked ground at one airport probably thinks its
normal and us "out-of-town" pilots are odd.

-Robert, CFII

[Edward A. Falk]

In article >,
Bob F. > wrote:

>You stay with ground until you get to the destination that you were told.

I think this is exactly correct.

But it's possible that there was a local procedure that the instructor
was aware of.

--
-Ed Falk,
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Edward A. Falk" > wrote in message
...
>
> I think this is exactly correct.
>
> But it's possible that there was a local procedure that the instructor
> was aware of.
>

I checked, there are none.

[Bob F.]

Then the instructor was at fault for not pointing this out by stating this
was an unusual procedure... Otherwise the student would think he should do
it in all cases. It he had done that, we wouldn't even be running this
thread.

--
BobF.
"Edward A. Falk" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Bob F. > wrote:
>
>>You stay with ground until you get to the destination that you were told.
>
> I think this is exactly correct.
>
> But it's possible that there was a local procedure that the instructor
> was aware of.
>
> --
> -Ed Falk,
> http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/