GA Callsigns

[Marco Leon[_5_]]

We were always taught to refer to ourselves on the radio with our full
callsigns until ATC refers to us with a shortened callsign (i.e. the last
three characters). However, I've noticed that the majority of the approach
controllers refer to most of the GA aircraft as "November" followed by their
numbers/letters. My question (to controllers in particular) is, do they
prefer us to refer to ourselves thereafter as "November xxxxxx" as well or
do they prefer us to keep with the "Cherokee/Cessna/Mooney..." moniker?

Minor point--I know. I just like to try and improve at least one thing
after each flight.

Marco

[Bob Gardner]

From the Air Traffic Control Handbook:

"2-4-20. AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION

Use the full identification in reply to aircraft with similar sounding
identifications. For other aircraft, the same identification may be used in
reply that the pilot used in his/her initial callup except use the correct
identification after communications have been established. Identify aircraft
as follows:

a. U.S. registry aircraft. State one of the following:

1. Civil. State the prefix "November" when establishing initial
communications with U.S. registered aircraft followed by the ICAO phonetic
pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration. The
controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's name,
followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the
aircraft registration if used by the pilot on the initial or subsequent
call."


From AIM 4-2-4(a)(3): "When the aircraft manufacturer's made or model is
stated, the prefix 'N' is dropped."

Take your choice. I personally never use November in communicating with ATC.

Bob Gardner
SAY AGAIN, PLEASE
"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
...
> We were always taught to refer to ourselves on the radio with our full
> callsigns until ATC refers to us with a shortened callsign (i.e. the last
> three characters). However, I've noticed that the majority of the approach
> controllers refer to most of the GA aircraft as "November" followed by
> their numbers/letters. My question (to controllers in particular) is, do
> they prefer us to refer to ourselves thereafter as "November xxxxxx" as
> well or do they prefer us to keep with the "Cherokee/Cessna/Mooney..."
> moniker?
>
> Minor point--I know. I just like to try and improve at least one thing
> after each flight.
>
> Marco
>

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Marco Leon wrote:
My question (to controllers in particular) is, do they
>prefer us to refer to ourselves thereafter as "November xxxxxx" as well or
>do they prefer us to keep with the "Cherokee/Cessna/Mooney..." moniker?
>

Technically, either way is correct, but I (and the few ATC guys I know)
prefer to use the make/model, followed by the numbers. The main reason
being that ATC will often point you out to others as traffic and in busy
areas it helps with visual identification.

I've found when a controller starts referring to me as "November xxx" it
usually means he either didn't hear my aircraft type on the initial call, or
he forgot it. A couple of times over the last few months when approach has
been calling me "November xxx", they've later asked for my aircraft type
before calling me out as traffic to another plane. This seems to be more
common with Approach controllers than with towers.

My biggest problem on initial call in is controllers admonishing me to use
my full callsign, even though I am using it.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[NVArt]

>
> I've found when a controller starts referring to me as "November xxx" it
> usually means he either didn't hear my aircraft type on the initial call, or
> he forgot it. A couple of times over the last few months when approach has
> been calling me "November xxx", they've later asked for my aircraft type
> before calling me out as traffic to another plane.

Generally, I hear a terse "NOVEMBER xxxxx" when I'm not paying
attention and they've call me a coupla times.
Sightseeing, BSing with pax, etc.

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" wrote:

>
> I've found when a controller starts referring to me as "November xxx" it
> usually means he either didn't hear my aircraft type on the initial call, or
> he forgot it.

Or he was unsure of what he heard.

I used to fly a Cessna Cutlass. When I checked in using that type,
controllers often came back with "November xxxxx" because they seldom heard
that type, I suppose...or they said "Douglas xxxxx" or "Cardinal xxxxx" or
some such.

Now that I'm flying a Skylane, that sort of thing seldom happens.


--
Dan
T-182T at 4R4

[Jay Honeck[_2_]]

> I used to fly a Cessna Cutlass. When I checked in using that type,
> controllers often came back with "November xxxxx" because they seldom
> heard that type, I suppose...or they said "Douglas xxxxx" or "Cardinal
> xxxxx" or some such.
>
> Now that I'm flying a Skylane, that sort of thing seldom happens.

We long ago gave up saying "Pathfinder November five six niner nine tree" --
all you get is a lot of "What's that?" from controllers. We just say
"Dakota five six niner niner tree" now, and they all get it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-03-15, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>> I used to fly a Cessna Cutlass. When I checked in using that type,
>> controllers often came back with "November xxxxx" because they seldom
>> heard that type, I suppose...or they said "Douglas xxxxx" or "Cardinal
>> xxxxx" or some such.
> We long ago gave up saying "Pathfinder November five six niner nine tree" --
> all you get is a lot of "What's that?" from controllers. We just say
> "Dakota five six niner niner tree" now, and they all get it.

I'm curious to see what the reactions to "Zodiac five five zulu charlie"
will be. There's not much I can replace it with.

What do I tell ATC when they ask what that is? (Aside from "my airplane", of
course.)
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:17:29 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>
>We long ago gave up saying "Pathfinder November five six niner nine tree" --
>all you get is a lot of "What's that?" from controllers. We just say
>"Dakota five six niner niner tree" now, and they all get it.

Try "Sundowner"...

Then, you give them Bravo-Echo-2-3 as a type, and get "Why is your
Bonanza going so slow?" several times, as BE33 was typed in to the ATC
system. <G>

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-03-15, john smith > wrote:
> Jay Maynard wrote:
>> I'm curious to see what the reactions to "Zodiac five five zulu charlie"
>> will be. There's not much I can replace it with.
>> What do I tell ATC when they ask what that is? (Aside from "my airplane", of
>> course.)
> You say EXPERIMENTAL.

Nope. It's not an experimental, but an SLSA.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in
news:J%PCj.23717$TT4.11472@attbi_s22:

>> I used to fly a Cessna Cutlass. When I checked in using that type,
>> controllers often came back with "November xxxxx" because they
>> seldom heard that type, I suppose...or they said "Douglas xxxxx" or
>> "Cardinal xxxxx" or some such.
>>
>> Now that I'm flying a Skylane, that sort of thing seldom happens.
>
> We long ago gave up saying "Pathfinder November five six niner nine
> tree" -- all you get is a lot of "What's that?" from controllers.
> We just say "Dakota five six niner niner tree" now, and they all get
> it.

It's a cherokee, moron.


Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

Jay Maynard > wrote in
:

> On 2008-03-15, Jay Honeck > wrote:
>>> I used to fly a Cessna Cutlass. When I checked in using that type,
>>> controllers often came back with "November xxxxx" because they
>>> seldom heard that type, I suppose...or they said "Douglas xxxxx" or
>>> "Cardinal xxxxx" or some such.
>> We long ago gave up saying "Pathfinder November five six niner nine
>> tree" -- all you get is a lot of "What's that?" from controllers.
>> We just say "Dakota five six niner niner tree" now, and they all get
>> it.
>
> I'm curious to see what the reactions to "Zodiac five five zulu
> charlie" will be. There's not much I can replace it with.
>
> What do I tell ATC when they ask what that is? (Aside from "my
> airplane", of course.)


Normally it's "experimental" for a homebuilt.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

B A R R Y > wrote in
:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:17:29 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>We long ago gave up saying "Pathfinder November five six niner nine
>>tree" -- all you get is a lot of "What's that?" from controllers.
>>We just say "Dakota five six niner niner tree" now, and they all get
>>it.
>
> Try "Sundowner"...
>
> Then, you give them Bravo-Echo-2-3 as a type, and get "Why is your
> Bonanza going so slow?" several times, as BE33 was typed in to the ATC
> system. <G>

Or you could say musketeer.

They want to have a rough idea of the shape of your airplane and it's
performance. That's why they ask. They aren't interested in your HP how
many goo gaas the airplane has or the color of the upholstery.





Bertie

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
...
>
> We were always taught to refer to ourselves on the radio with our full
> callsigns until ATC refers to us with a shortened callsign (i.e. the last
> three characters). However, I've noticed that the majority of the approach
> controllers refer to most of the GA aircraft as "November" followed by
> their numbers/letters. My question (to controllers in particular) is, do
> they prefer us to refer to ourselves thereafter as "November xxxxxx" as
> well or do they prefer us to keep with the "Cherokee/Cessna/Mooney..."
> moniker?
>

I prefer that pilots refer to themselves by aircraft name and full
registration less "November"; "Skylark niner eight zero one victor", "Colt
one fower fife tree alpha", "Navion six seven two two bravo", "Seabee two
tree eight sierra charlie", etc.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Maynard" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm curious to see what the reactions to "Zodiac five five zulu charlie"
> will be. There's not much I can replace it with.
>
> What do I tell ATC when they ask what that is? (Aside from "my airplane",
> of course.)
>

Try CH60.

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-03-15, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> "Jay Maynard" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I'm curious to see what the reactions to "Zodiac five five zulu charlie"
>> will be. There's not much I can replace it with.
>> What do I tell ATC when they ask what that is? (Aside from "my airplane",
>> of course.)
> Try CH60.

Will they be able to answer their questions by asking their computer what a
CH60 is? What is it they need to know about an aircraft that knowing the
model tells them, anyway?
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
http://www.hercules-390.org (Yes, that's me!)
Buy Hercules stuff at http://www.cafepress.com/hercules-390

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Maynard" > wrote in message
...
>
> Will they be able to answer their questions by asking their computer what
> a
> CH60 is? What is it they need to know about an aircraft that knowing the
> model tells them, anyway?
>

CH60 tells them what to enter as the aircraft type if they do intend to
enter it into the flight data computer. That's probably all they're looking
for. You've told them you're a Zodiac so they already know what to call
you.

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-03-15, Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:
> CH60 tells them what to enter as the aircraft type if they do intend to
> enter it into the flight data computer. That's probably all they're looking
> for. You've told them you're a Zodiac so they already know what to call
> you.

Okkay, thanks. Don't want to give them a long soliloquy if they're just
interested in one bit of info.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (getting ready to order)

[B A R R Y]

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:58:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
wrote:

>
>Or you could say musketeer.

I could.

But I don't want to! <G>

It all usually boils down to "Beech 5-8...

[Bertie the Bunyip[_24_]]

B A R R Y > wrote in
:

> On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 13:58:31 +0000 (UTC), Bertie the Bunyip >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>Or you could say musketeer.
>
> I could.
>
> But I don't want to! <G>
>
> It all usually boils down to "Beech 5-8...
>
>

ONce they know what you are...


Bertie

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:J%PCj.23717$TT4.11472@attbi_s22...
>
> We long ago gave up saying "Pathfinder November five six niner nine
> tree" -- all you get is a lot of "What's that?" from controllers. We
> just say "Dakota five six niner niner tree" now, and they all get it.
>

According to the FAA registration database N56993 is assigned to a PA-28-235
manufactured in 1973. That would make it a Cherokee Charger, the PA-28-235
would be renamed Cherokee Pathfinder in 1974. The Dakota came along in 1979
as the PA-28-236 with the tapered wing.

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 14, 3:43*pm, "Marco Leon" > wrote:
> We were always taught to refer to ourselves on the radio with our full
> callsigns until ATC refers to us with a shortened callsign (i.e. the last
> three characters). However, I've noticed that the majority of the approach
> controllers refer to most of the GA aircraft as "November" followed by their
> numbers/letters. My question (to controllers in particular) is, do they
> prefer us to refer to ourselves thereafter as "November xxxxxx" as well or
> do they prefer us to keep with the "Cherokee/Cessna/Mooney..." moniker?
>
> Minor point--I know. *I just like to try and improve at least one thing
> after each flight.
>
> Marco

I've seen ultralights operated out of contorlled airports a couple of
times, but have never heard them on the radio. I was on the ground
when they came in.

My question is how would they ID themselves? Would it be along this
line "Tower, this is ultralight 5 miles north, inbound full stop."? I
have a trike, but haven't flown it into controlled space yet. Need to
get a portable raido soon.

Wil

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"William Hung" > wrote in message
...
>
> I've seen ultralights operated out of contorlled airports a couple of
> times, but have never heard them on the radio. I was on the ground
> when they came in.
>
> My question is how would they ID themselves? Would it be along this
> line "Tower, this is ultralight 5 miles north, inbound full stop."? I
> have a trike, but haven't flown it into controlled space yet. Need to
> get a portable raido soon.
>

Ask the tower when you phone for prior authorization.

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 15, 3:56*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "William Hung" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > I've seen ultralights operated out of contorlled airports a couple of
> > times, but have never heard them on the radio. *I was on the ground
> > when they came in.
>
> > My question is how would they ID themselves? *Would it be along this
> > line "Tower, this is ultralight 5 miles north, inbound full stop."? *I
> > have a trike, but haven't flown it into controlled space yet. *Need to
> > get a portable raido soon.
>
> Ask the tower when you phone for prior authorization.

If I get the radio, would I stil have to phone first?

Wil

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"William Hung" > wrote in message
...
>
> If I get the radio, would I still have to phone first?
>

Prior authorization is still required. I suppose you could write, but a
phone call seems so much simpler.


§ 103.17 Operations in certain airspace.

No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class
C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area
of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior
authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace.

[Amdt. 103-17, 56 FR 65662, Dec. 17, 1991]

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 15, 4:27*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "William Hung" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > If I get the radio, would I still have to phone first?
>
> Prior authorization is still required. *I suppose you could write, but a
> phone call seems so much simpler.
>
> § 103.17 * Operations in certain airspace.
>
> No person may operate an ultralight vehicle within Class A, Class B, Class
> C, or Class D airspace or within the lateral boundaries of the surface area
> of Class E airspace designated for an airport unless that person has prior
> authorization from the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that airspace..
>
> [Amdt. 103-17, 56 FR 65662, Dec. 17, 1991]

I'm interpretting the above as "it is OK to call on the radio to get
permission to enter airspace."

Now, how would I ID myself? Would what I've stated above suffice?

"My question is how would they ID themselves? Would it be along
this
line "Tower, this is ultralight 5 miles north, inbound full stop."?
I
have a trike, but haven't flown it into controlled space yet. Need
to
get a portable raido soon."

Thanks,
Wil

[James]

Marco Leon wrote:

> We were always taught to refer to ourselves on the radio with our full
> callsigns until ATC refers to us with a shortened callsign (i.e. the last
> three characters). However, I've noticed that the majority of the approach
> controllers refer to most of the GA aircraft as "November" followed by their
> numbers/letters. My question (to controllers in particular) is, do they
> prefer us to refer to ourselves thereafter as "November xxxxxx" as well or
> do they prefer us to keep with the "Cherokee/Cessna/Mooney..." moniker?
>
> Minor point--I know. I just like to try and improve at least one thing
> after each flight.
>
> Marco
>
>
I had a problem on one of my student solo x-country flights. I was in
714NX, a C150. The contoller at one stage was calling for Skyhawk 4NX,
which I was not in, when he was trying to call me, and there is a
Skyhawk 4NX at a nearby airport. The lesson I learn is if you are not
sure then you should ask the contoller.

James.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"William Hung" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm interpretting the above as "it is OK to call on the radio to get
> permission to enter airspace."
>

I think you should alter your interpretation. When a radio call is all that
is needed for permission to enter airspace the regulations state something
like, "Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC
facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated
in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that
airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that
airspace."


>
> Now, how would I ID myself? Would what I've stated above suffice?
>

As I said previously, just ask ATC when you call for PRIOR authorization.

[Gig 601XL Builder[_2_]]

john smith wrote:
> Jay Maynard wrote:
>> I'm curious to see what the reactions to "Zodiac five five zulu charlie"
>> will be. There's not much I can replace it with.
>> What do I tell ATC when they ask what that is? (Aside from "my
>> airplane", of
>> course.)
>
> You say EXPERIMENTAL.

No he doesn't It's a factory built LSA.

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 08:32:02 -0500, Gig 601XL Builder
> wrote:

> john smith wrote:
> > Jay Maynard wrote:
> >> I'm curious to see what the reactions to "Zodiac five five zulu charlie"
> >> will be. There's not much I can replace it with.
> >> What do I tell ATC when they ask what that is? (Aside from "my
> >> airplane", of
> >> course.)
> >
> > You say EXPERIMENTAL.
>
> No he doesn't It's a factory built LSA.

On the Mythbusters "airplane on a conveyor" episode, the pilot used "Light
Sport" as a call sign (ELSA in this case, but...).

Speaking of myths that should be busted, a lot of folks believe that
Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft are supposed to use "Experimental" as a call
sign.....

Ron Wanttaja

[Marco Leon[_5_]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
...
>
> I prefer that pilots refer to themselves by aircraft name and full
> registration less "November"; "Skylark niner eight zero one victor", "Colt
> one fower fife tree alpha", "Navion six seven two two bravo", "Seabee two
> tree eight sierra charlie", etc.

Even if you refer to them as "November xxxxx?" Or do you always try and call
them by their aircraft type?

Marco

[Marco Leon[_5_]]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
...
> From the Air Traffic Control Handbook:
>
> "2-4-20. AIRCRAFT IDENTIFICATION
>
> Use the full identification in reply to aircraft with similar sounding
> identifications. For other aircraft, the same identification may be used
> in reply that the pilot used in his/her initial callup except use the
> correct identification after communications have been established.
> Identify aircraft as follows:
>
> a. U.S. registry aircraft. State one of the following:
>
> 1. Civil. State the prefix "November" when establishing initial
> communications with U.S. registered aircraft followed by the ICAO phonetic
> pronunciation of the numbers/letters of the aircraft registration. The
> controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's
> name, followed by the ICAO phonetic pronunciation of the numbers/letters
> of the aircraft registration if used by the pilot on the initial or
> subsequent call."
>
>
> From AIM 4-2-4(a)(3): "When the aircraft manufacturer's made or model is
> stated, the prefix 'N' is dropped."
>
> Take your choice. I personally never use November in communicating with
> ATC.

Bob, thanks for the quotes. I had figured it was a gray area. I didn't
realize the ATC Handbook specifically states that "November" is to be used
on initial call-up--that's good to know. I thought it was as others have
guessed which is that the controllers have simply forgotten the type or use
"November" in the interest of simplicity.

I actually do use "Cherokee" even though the controller refers to me as
"November" but it just stikes me as odd or even wrong that in the same
conversation we are using two different ways of referring to the same thing.

Marco

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"Marco Leon" > wrote in message
...
>
> Even if you refer to them as "November xxxxx?" Or do you always try and
> call them by their aircraft type?
>

If I know their type I call them by their type. I use November only when I
don't know their type.

[Steven P. McNicoll]

"john smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> You say EXPERIMENTAL.
>

Why?

[JGalban via AviationKB.com]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

>
>According to the FAA registration database N56993 is assigned to a PA-28-235
>manufactured in 1973. That would make it a Cherokee Charger, the PA-28-235
>would be renamed Cherokee Pathfinder in 1974. The Dakota came along in 1979
>as the PA-28-236 with the tapered wing.

To be exceedingly pedantic, N56993 was built and late '73 and belongs to
the '74 model year (check the serial number). Piper assigned name
designations and features by year model, and the '74 model year was the
Pathfinder. The FAA groups aircraft by year of manufacture, while most
factories grouped them by model year.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com

[William Hung[_2_]]

On Mar 15, 6:07*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> "William Hung" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > I'm interpretting the above as "it is OK to call on the radio to get
> > permission to enter airspace."
>
> I think you should alter your interpretation. *When a radio call is all that
> is needed for permission to enter airspace the regulations state something
> like, "Each person must establish two-way radio communications with the ATC
> facility (including foreign ATC in the case of foreign airspace designated
> in the United States) providing air traffic services prior to entering that
> airspace and thereafter maintain those communications while within that
> airspace."
>
>
>
> > Now, how would I ID myself? *Would what I've stated above suffice?
>
> As I said previously, just ask ATC when you call for PRIOR authorization.

Thanks Steve, I'll ask ATC next time I'm out at the airport.

Wil

[Ron Natalie]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

> Speaking of myths that should be busted, a lot of folks believe that
> Experimental Amateur-Built aircraft are supposed to use "Experimental" as a call
> sign.....
>
Only need to say that word once.