Hercules Engines

[Phil Miller]

Hey Splappy,

Do you remember this series of pronouncements;

From: "Tarver Engineering" >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as civilian
aircraft?
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
<snip>
> wrote in message
> Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.

Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.

The name refers to the fact that it is an average across several
thermocouples.

John P. Tarver, MS/PE

USAF jet engine mechanic '74-'80

And;

From: "Tarver Engineering" >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as civilian
aircraft?
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 10:32:29 -0800
<snip>
"Rick" > wrote in message
...
> You appear to be terribly confused with thermocouple connections ...
> thermocouples are not wired in series.

Yes Rick, the thermocouples at the turbine inlet are connected in
series.

<snip>

> Total inlet temperature is what it is and will not change
> with anyting other than altitude, speed, and OAT. TIT will not effect
> compressor inlet temperature.

What does that have to do with anything Rick?

> The fuel control will use compressor inlet temp as an input to determine
> the fuel flow needed to produce a gross power output and then the pilot
> or in the TD system, a modulating valve will adjust TIT Turbine Inlet
> Temperature to the desired level.

No Ricky, the fuel controller uses pressure one and temperature zero,
from the pitot tube, to adjust fuel flow.

> Even us pilots understand that stuff ...

Not a chance of that Rick.

> several others are attempting
> to help you with terminology, accept that help graciously or you will
> continue to dig yourself into a hole.

You are a ****ing moron Rick, stick with pure ****ing magic, 'cause you
know nothing about aircraft systems.

John P. Tarver, MS/PE

USAF jet engine mechanic '74-'80

And;

From: "Tarver Engineering" >
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as civilian
aircraft?
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 12:21:32 -0800

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
> >>"You are a ****ing moron Rick,"
>
> Tsk, tsk, tsk ... sticks and stones and all that but for averaging,
> themocouples are wired in parallel.

No way, that would be stupid.

> Turbine Inlet Temperature is jsut what it says it is. On the T-56 it is
> obtained by averaging the output of 18 thermocouples wired in parallel

That is a lot of wire, perhaps you would like to rethink your rediculess
assertion.

> and eve though they are as wrong as the rest of us in this thread, the
> Air Force, Rolls Royce, Allison, and even the Navy refer to T-5 as
> TURBINE INLET TEMPERATURE.

That is fine for the PFM crowd, but quite incorrect.

<snip>

> Have a really nice day.

I am.

John P. Tarver, MS/PE


Hmmmm...want to change your mind? This is your opportunity to prove all
us chooks wrong by showing that you can admit when you're wrong. Give it
a go.

Phil
--
Great Tarverisms #4

The pitot tube was added to the first American jets to prevent the
kind of failures that killed an entire squadron off Florida. Without
P1 and T0 a jet will stall in fog.

Thanks to both of you for playing.

John

rec.aviation.military
11 August 2002

[Tarver Engineering]

"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
...
>
> Hey Splappy,
>
> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>
> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as civilian
> aircraft?
> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> <snip>
> > wrote in message
> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
>
> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.

Yep.

Have you considered yet, Miller, that your zero knowledge of aircraft makes
for a pretty rediculess archive troll?

[Phil Miller]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:13:54 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> wrote:

>
>"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Hey Splappy,
>>
>> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>>
>> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as civilian
>> aircraft?
>> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>> <snip>
>> > wrote in message
>> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
>>
>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>
>Yep.

I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
service manual yesterday. Went like this...

"Description and operation of turbine inlet temperature indicating and
control system. [Hmmm, not total, turbine.]

....measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each assembly
is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating system,
and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control system. The 18
indicating system thermocouples are connected in parallel [!!] by the
indicator turbine thermocouple harness assembly, and this signal is
transmitted to a turbine inlet temperature indicator in the engine
instrument panel. The 18 control system thermocouples are connected in
parallel..."

So, let's revise.

From: "Tarver Engineering" >

Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.

Yes Rick, the thermocouples at the turbine inlet are connected in
series.

> Tsk, tsk, tsk ... sticks and stones and all that but for averaging,
> themocouples are wired in parallel.

No way, that would be stupid.

> Turbine Inlet Temperature is jsut what it says it is. On the T-56 it is
> obtained by averaging the output of 18 thermocouples wired in parallel

That is a lot of wire, perhaps you would like to rethink your rediculess
assertion.

> and eve though they are as wrong as the rest of us in this thread, the
> Air Force, Rolls Royce, Allison, and even the Navy refer to T-5 as
> TURBINE INLET TEMPERATURE.

That is fine for the PFM crowd, but quite incorrect.


>Have you considered yet, Miller, that your zero knowledge of aircraft makes
>for a pretty rediculess archive troll?

For Pete's sake! The word is ridiculous.

Phil
--
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish.
Euripides

[Bertie the Bunyip]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:

>
> "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Hey Splappy,
>>
>> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>>
>> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
>> civilian aircraft?
>> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>> <snip>
>> > wrote in message
>> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
>>
>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>
> Yep.

Nope.


Bertie

[John Mazor]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> Hey Splappy,
> >>
> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> >>
> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> >> civilian aircraft?
> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> >> <snip>
> >> > wrote in message
> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> >>
> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >
> > Yep.
>
> Nope.

Once again, Tarver goes TITs up.

[John R Weiss]

"Phil Miller" > wrote...

>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>
>>Yep.
>
> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>
> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each assembly
> is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating system,
> and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control system. The 18
> indicating system thermocouples are connected in parallel [!!] by the
> indicator turbine thermocouple harness assembly,

I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!


> So, let's revise.

That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver Chronicles! :-)

[Jim Yanik]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in
news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:

> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
>
>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>>
>>>Yep.
>>
>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
>> service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>>
>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
>> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
>> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
>> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
>> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
>> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness assembly,
>
> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
>
>
>> So, let's revise.
>
> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
> Chronicles! :-)
>

bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling them
would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and compare to a
reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal processing to convert
the mV signal to a digital form,which could then be sent on a parallel bus?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[Tarver Engineering]

"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:13:54 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> Hey Splappy,
> >>
> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> >>
> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
civilian
> >> aircraft?
> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> >> <snip>
> >> > wrote in message
> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> >>
> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >
> >Yep.
>
> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> service manual yesterday. Went like this...

Same for any MM, the data does not need to be accurate.

Any engine temperature station using more than one probe is a Total.

That is how it works.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> :
>
> >
> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> Hey Splappy,
> >>
> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> >>
> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> >> civilian aircraft?
> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> >> <snip>
> >> > wrote in message
> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> >>
> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >
> > Yep.
>
> Nope.

Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when they
are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.

One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.

The irony of it all. :)

[Tarver Engineering]

"John Mazor" > wrote in message
...
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > >
> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>
> > >> Hey Splappy,
> > >>
> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > >>
> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> > >> civilian aircraft?
> > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > >> <snip>
> > >> > wrote in message
> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> > >>
> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > >
> > > Yep.
> >
> > Nope.
>
> Once again, Tarver goes TITs up.

Once again the Bunyip has been mazored.

Nice troll though.

[Tarver Engineering]

"JL Grasso" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:57:34 -0800, "Tarver Engineering" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> >> :
> >>
> >> >
> >> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> >>
> >> >> Hey Splappy,
> >> >>
> >> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> >> >>
> >> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> >> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> >> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> >> >> civilian aircraft?
> >> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> >> >> <snip>
> >> >> > wrote in message
> >> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
(T)empreture.
> >> >>
> >> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >> >
> >> > Yep.
> >>
> >> Nope.
> >
> >Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
they
> >are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
> >
> >One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.
> >
> >The irony of it all. :)
>
> Total Air Temperature (TAT)is the maximum temperature attainable by air
> when brought to rest adiabatically.

Total Air Temperature is the total of several probes at the inlet of the
engine. (ie T1)

> The word "Total", when used to
> describe the type of temperature reading that a probe is reporting, has
> nothing to do with totalizers or wiring connections.

The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes are
wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the thermocouple
outputs together.

Why do you post, Grasso, when it is clear that there is no subject WRT
aircraft that you know? Perhaps you would do better sticking to your parts
catalogs and forget about pretending you understand anything about aircraft.
Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.

[Bertie the Bunyip]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:

>
> "John Mazor" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
>> > :
>> >
>> > >
>> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>> > > ...
>> > >>
>> > >> Hey Splappy,
>> > >>
>> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>> > >>
>> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>> > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>> > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
>> > >> civilian aircraft?
>> > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>> > >> <snip>
>> > >> > wrote in message
>> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
>> > >> > (T)empreture.
>> > >>
>> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>> > >
>> > > Yep.
>> >
>> > Nope.
>>
>> Once again, Tarver goes TITs up.
>
> Once again the Bunyip has been mazored.
>
> Nice troll though.

I'm an excellent troll, actually.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:

>
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >
>> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> >>
>> >> Hey Splappy,
>> >>
>> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>> >>
>> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
>> >> civilian aircraft?
>> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>> >> <snip>
>> >> > wrote in message
>> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
>> >> > (T)empreture.
>> >>
>> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>> >
>> > Yep.
>>
>> Nope.
>
> Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer,
> when they are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.

Total inlet temperature?

Bwawhahhwhahwhahwshhhwhhahwhahwhhah!

What a fjukwit.



>
> One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.

Oh I think they all have more than a clue as to what you're all about,
splaps boy.

>
> The irony of it all. :)
>

Well, exactly.

Bertie >

[Bertie the Bunyip]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:

>
> "JL Grasso" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:57:34 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
>> >> :
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>> >> > ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hey Splappy,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>> >> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>> >> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
>> >> >> civilian aircraft?
>> >> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>> >> >> <snip>
>> >> >> > wrote in message
>> >> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
> (T)empreture.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yep.
>> >>
>> >> Nope.
>> >
>> >Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer,
>> >when
> they
>> >are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>> >
>> >One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.
>> >
>> >The irony of it all. :)
>>
>> Total Air Temperature (TAT)is the maximum temperature attainable by
>> air when brought to rest adiabatically.
>
> Total Air Temperature is the total of several probes at the inlet of
> the engine. (ie T1)
>
>> The word "Total", when used to
>> describe the type of temperature reading that a probe is reporting,
>> has nothing to do with totalizers or wiring connections.
>
> The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
> thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes
> are wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the
> thermocouple outputs together.
>
> Why do you post, Grasso, when it is clear that there is no subject WRT
> aircraft that you know? Perhaps you would do better sticking to your
> parts catalogs and forget about pretending you understand anything
> about aircraft. Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to
> aviation.

Like you?

bertie

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when they
> are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.

Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.

> The irony of it all. :)

Indeed.

Rick

[Rick]

Jim Yanik wrote:

> bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling them
> would not work.

You can go back to sleep now.

Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
they
> > are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>
> Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
> entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.

What is you post supposed to mean, Rick?

Did you just want to make something up and look stupid?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> > bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling them
> > would not work.
>
> You can go back to sleep now.

Unbelieveable.

The irony of it all.

[Peter J Ross]

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 at 03:28 GMT, Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk:

>"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:
>
>>
>> "John Mazor" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
>>> > :
>>> >
>>> > >
>>> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>>> > > ...
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Hey Splappy,
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>>> > >>
>>> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>>> > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>>> > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
>>> > >> civilian aircraft?
>>> > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>>> > >> <snip>
>>> > >> > wrote in message
>>> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
>>> > >> > (T)empreture.
>>> > >>
>>> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>> > >
>>> > > Yep.
>>> >
>>> > Nope.
>>>
>>> Once again, Tarver goes TITs up.
>>
>> Once again the Bunyip has been mazored.
>>
>> Nice troll though.
>
>I'm an excellent troll, actually.
>
>Bertie

Nah, you're crap! ;-)

But what's this rec.aviation.military froup? How can anything military
be merely recreational?

--
PJR :-)
mhm #34x8 Smeeter #30 WSD #42
Alcatroll Labs Inc. (Executive Vice-President)
news:alt.usenet.kooks - Hook, Line and Sinker, Dec 2003
news:alt.hackers.malicious - Wittiest Troll, 2003
news:alt.flame: Most Boring Writer, 2003
news:alt.fan.pjr - Usenet like Mother used to make

(Remove NOSPAM to reply)

[Bertie the Bunyip]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:

>
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
>> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>>
>> > Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer,
>> > when
> they
>> > are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>>
>> Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
>> entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.
>
> What is you post supposed to mean, Rick?
>
> Did you just want to make something up and look stupid?

I agree with Tarver. Making things up and looking stupid is his game. It's
very unfair of you to move in on his franchise.

Bertie

[Bertie the Bunyip]

Peter J Ross > wrote in
:

> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 at 03:28 GMT, Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
> alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk:
>
>>"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:
>>
>>>
>>> "John Mazor" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
>>>> > :
>>>> >
>>>> > >
>>>> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>>>> > > ...
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Hey Splappy,
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>>>> > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>>>> > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
>>>> > >> civilian aircraft?
>>>> > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>>>> > >> <snip>
>>>> > >> > wrote in message
>>>> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
>>>> > >> > (T)empreture.
>>>> > >>
>>>> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>>> > >
>>>> > > Yep.
>>>> >
>>>> > Nope.
>>>>
>>>> Once again, Tarver goes TITs up.
>>>
>>> Once again the Bunyip has been mazored.
>>>
>>> Nice troll though.
>>
>>I'm an excellent troll, actually.
>>
>>Bertie
>
> Nah, you're crap! ;-)
>
> But what's this rec.aviation.military froup? How can anything military
> be merely recreational?
>
You must have been out of circualtion. Check out the war in Iraq thing..

Bertie

[Tarver Engineering]

"JL Grasso" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:55:11 -0800, "Tarver Engineering" >
> wrote:

<snip>
> >The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
> >thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes are
> >wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the thermocouple
> >outputs together.
> >
> >Why do you post, Grasso, when it is clear that there is no subject WRT
> >aircraft that you know? Perhaps you would do better sticking to your
parts
> >catalogs and forget about pretending you understand anything about
aircraft.
> >Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.
>
> You're the Wierd Al Yankovic of technology.

I am an engineer with a masters degree and you are a clueless loser, Jerry.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
...

Do you feel better now, Phil?

Having proven once again that you are a clueless git?

[George Ruch]

Rick > wrote:

>Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
>> Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when they
>> are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>
>Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
>entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.

Roughly the surface temperature of a Class B star. Considering titanium
boils at 3,278C, could this be ... magic metallurgy? <g, d & r>

|George
/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

[Rick]

George Ruch wrote:


>>Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
>>entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.
>
>
> Roughly the surface temperature of a Class B star. Considering titanium
> boils at 3,278C, could this be ... magic metallurgy? <g, d & r>

It does seem a bit warm for a turbine but Tarver says the
thermocouples are wired in series so that they add up to the
"total inlet temperature." And Tarver couldn't be wrong
could he?

Rick

[Ralph Nesbitt]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> Do you feel better now, Phil?
>
> Having proven once again that you are a clueless git?
>
Lockheed has used some version/model of the Allison T-56 since "1956" on all
C-130 models. Yes it is called a Allison T-56 because it was a "56 model
Allison Turbine Engine". The same year the C-130 first flew at/from
Marietta, Ga.

There have been numerous improvements made to this basic engine design over
the years to incorporate new technology, increase power, etc., but the basic
design remains the same.

The "T 56-15 Model Allison Engine" referred to by Phil, means a Allison T-56
engine incorporating the 15 th update.

Check the model # of the Allison T-56 engine used on the C-130J. If you do a
little checking, you will find the T-56-15 engine was used on late C130 E &
G models.

Tarver you claim to be an "Electrical Engineer". Don't you know better than
to argue with a person quoting the manual on a given/specified item?
Apparently not.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

[Phil Miller]

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 21:14:42 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> wrote:

>
>"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
...
>
>Do you feel better now, Phil?

Yeah, sure do Splappy. I've been too busy to read any of your crap since
about August last year. It's been nice to have a good old fashioned
belly laugh again, and it's also reassuring to know that there is some
consistency in the world.

>Having proven once again that you are a clueless git?

Oh yeah, sure. Me, the official maintenance manual all other posters at
ram and ada and let's face it, just about everyone but you is wrong. See
what I mean about consistency? We are all lunes [sic]. You, on your own,
have the truth. Bwahahahaha...

Phil
--
Great Tarverisms #2

What is the best selling beer in Oz?

Budweiser.

Another illusion shattered.

John

alt.disasters.aviation
18 August 2002

[Jim Knoyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "JL Grasso" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:57:34 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> > >> :
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > >> > ...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Hey Splappy,
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > >> >>
> > >> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > >> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > >> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> > >> >> civilian aircraft?
> > >> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > >> >> <snip>
> > >> >> > wrote in message
> > >> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
> (T)empreture.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > >> >
> > >> > Yep.
> > >>
> > >> Nope.
> > >
> > >Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
> they
> > >are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
> > >
> > >One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.
> > >
> > >The irony of it all. :)
> >
> > Total Air Temperature (TAT)is the maximum temperature attainable by air
> > when brought to rest adiabatically.
>
> Total Air Temperature is the total of several probes at the inlet of the
> engine. (ie T1)
>
> > The word "Total", when used to
> > describe the type of temperature reading that a probe is reporting, has
> > nothing to do with totalizers or wiring connections.
>
> The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
> thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes are
> wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the thermocouple
> outputs together.
>

Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!

Jimmy

[Phil Miller]

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 05:57:36 GMT, "Ralph Nesbitt"
> wrote:

>
>"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>> Do you feel better now, Phil?
>>
>> Having proven once again that you are a clueless git?
>>
>Lockheed has used some version/model of the Allison T-56 since "1956" on all
>C-130 models. Yes it is called a Allison T-56 because it was a "56 model
>Allison Turbine Engine". The same year the C-130 first flew at/from
>Marietta, Ga.
>
>There have been numerous improvements made to this basic engine design over
>the years to incorporate new technology, increase power, etc., but the basic
>design remains the same.
>
>The "T 56-15 Model Allison Engine" referred to by Phil, means a Allison T-56
>engine incorporating the 15 th update.
>
>Check the model # of the Allison T-56 engine used on the C-130J. If you do a
>little checking, you will find the T-56-15 engine was used on late C130 E &
>G models.
>
>Tarver you claim to be an "Electrical Engineer". Don't you know better than
>to argue with a person quoting the manual on a given/specified item?
>Apparently not.

But, Ralph. The manuals wrong. Splappy say so. Bwahahahaha!

Is there a problem with your email account? Sent you one today and it
bounced.

Phil
--
Great Tarverisms #1

> The Air Speed Indicator (ASI) shows

You made that up, didn't you?

The IAS indicator says IAS, not ASI.

Why do you come here pretending to know something
when you don't even know the words?

John

[B2431]

>From: Jim Yanik
>Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"John R Weiss" > wrote in
>news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
>
>> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
>>
>>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>>>
>>>>Yep.
>>>
>>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
>>> service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>>>
>>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
>>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
>>> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
>>> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
>>> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
>>> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
>>> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness assembly,
>>
>> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
>>
>>
>>> So, let's revise.
>>
>> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
>> Chronicles! :-)
>>
>
>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling them
>would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and compare to a
>reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal processing to convert
>the mV signal to a digital form,which could then be sent on a parallel bus?
>
>--
>Jim Yanik
>jyanik-at-kua.net
>
On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if there were
two or more.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/16/2004 9:41 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>>
>> > Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
>they
>> > are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>>
>> Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
>> entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.
>
>What is you post supposed to mean, Rick?
>
>Did you just want to make something up and look stupid?
>

Tarver, why not? You do it all the time.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Steve R.]

"Ralph Nesbitt" > wrote in message
y.com...
>
> Lockheed has used some version/model of the Allison T-56 since "1956" on
all
> C-130 models. Yes it is called a Allison T-56 because it was a "56 model
> Allison Turbine Engine". The same year the C-130 first flew at/from
> Marietta, Ga.
>
> There have been numerous improvements made to this basic engine design
over
> the years to incorporate new technology, increase power, etc., but the
basic
> design remains the same.
>
> The "T 56-15 Model Allison Engine" referred to by Phil, means a Allison
T-56
> engine incorporating the 15 th update.
>
> Check the model # of the Allison T-56 engine used on the C-130J. If you do
a
> little checking, you will find the T-56-15 engine was used on late C130 E
&
> G models.
>
> Tarver you claim to be an "Electrical Engineer". Don't you know better
than
> to argue with a person quoting the manual on a given/specified item?
> Apparently not.
> Ralph Nesbitt
> Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type


Actually, the J has the AE2100D3 engine. The T56 production line was shut
down shortly after the J went into production.
Steve R.

[John Mazor]

"JL Grasso" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:55:11 -0800, "Tarver Engineering" >
> wrote:

> >Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.
>
> You're the Wierd Al Yankovic of technology.

The Svengali of Splaps

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
k.net...
> George Ruch wrote:
>
>
> >>Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
> >>entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.
> >
> >
> > Roughly the surface temperature of a Class B star. Considering titanium
> > boils at 3,278C, could this be ... magic metallurgy? <g, d & r>
>
> It does seem a bit warm for a turbine but Tarver says the
> thermocouples are wired in series so that they add up to the
> "total inlet temperature." And Tarver couldn't be wrong
> could he?

Here we see how Rick has the reading and comprehension skills of an
elementary school student. Why would you think that adding the signals from
thermocouples in series would add the temperature?

How do you survive in this world, Rick?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
...

> Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
> check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
> to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!

Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.

Catch this, Jimmy:

Since you started your childishness, you have trolled up three different
groups, with pretty much the same results.

Do you remember that old Gulf Aero DER that hung around in the pilot's
groups? Well, he read your stuff and got so stupid they fired him.

Next some poor tech at BF Goodrich got trolled up and removed the
temperature probe from the HS-125 700 ADC-80 changes. That cost them
hundreds of thousands of dollars in customer relations money.

And third, but not least, you trolled up Dudley and Shafer. Well wouldn't
you know, once Dudley got a conspiracy going with Mary's friends at Dryden,
the system **** out the two civil service slots and told Dryden to create a
basis for their funding. Well you know, those Dryden folks knew full well
they were making a living off someone else's past, but they hadn't realized
some of the people's work they made their living off of were contemporaries.
So old Ken Peterson, a personal friend of Dudley's, sat about and did not
create any basis, so now they have lost 1/3 of their budget. (ie $40million)

So, Jimmy, when I call your work an idiot detector, I really mean it.

Your's is a much nicer archive troll, as Miller is completely clueless about
the subject.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> Tarver, why not? You do it all the time.

Not me, little troll.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...

> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if there
were
> two or more.

What engine shop did you work in, Dan?

[Jim Yanik]

(B2431) wrote in
:

>>From: Jim Yanik
>>Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>"John R Weiss" > wrote in
>>news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
>>
>>> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
>>>
>>>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>>>>
>>>>>Yep.
>>>>
>>>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the
>>>> T56-A-15 service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>>>>
>>>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
>>>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
>>>> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
>>>> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
>>>> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
>>>> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
>>>> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness
>>>> assembly,
>>>
>>> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
>>>
>>>
>>>> So, let's revise.
>>>
>>> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
>>> Chronicles! :-)
>>>
>>
>>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling
>>them would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and
>>compare to a reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal
>>processing to convert the mV signal to a digital form,which could then
>>be sent on a parallel bus?
>>
>>--
>>Jim Yanik
>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>>
> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if
> there were two or more.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
parallel connection?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[Jim Yanik]

Rick > wrote in
ink.net:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>> bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling
>> them would not work.
>
> You can go back to sleep now.
>
> Rick
>

Well,that was an informative post.Best you could do,I suppose.
'plonk'.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:13:54 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >> Hey Splappy,
> > >>
> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > >>
> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> civilian
> > >> aircraft?
> > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > >> <snip>
> > >> > wrote in message
> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> > >>
> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > >
> > >Yep.
> >
> > I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> > service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>
> Same for any MM, the data does not need to be accurate.

grief !
so if that were the case, then a generic manual would suffice.
heck ! why bother, why not use the manual for a 1957 ford zeypher instead

>
> Any engine temperature station using more than one probe is a Total.
>
> That is how it works.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
...
> (B2431) wrote in
> :

> > On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if
> > there were two or more.

> Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
> Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
> parallel connection?

You would have to first understand that Dan makes his statement based on
absolutely nothing.

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> > :
> >
> > >
> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >>
> > >> Hey Splappy,
> > >>
> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > >>
> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> > >> civilian aircraft?
> > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > >> <snip>
> > >> > wrote in message
> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> > >>
> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > >
> > > Yep.
> >
> > Nope.
>
> Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when they
> are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>
> One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.
>
> The irony of it all. :)


do you know what "series" and "parallel" means ??

the irony of it all indeed !

[Tarver Engineering]

"running with scissors" > wrote in
message om...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > ...

<snip>
> > > I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> > > service manual yesterday. Went like this...
> >
> > Same for any MM, the data does not need to be accurate.
>
> grief !
> so if that were the case, then a generic manual would suffice.

Nope, the manual has to be close enough to do the work. Errors in MMs are
commomplace and not any real hazard. Just as B-52 operators don't really
need to know how their wing works, mechanics don't really need to know how a
system works.

[running with scissors]

Rick > wrote in message et>...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when they
> > are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>
> Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
> entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.
>
> > The irony of it all. :)
>
> Indeed.
>
> Rick

much the way that in tarverworld a spoiler is a flap and a flight
director is an autopilot.

[Tarver Engineering]

"running with scissors" > wrote in
message om...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> > > :
> > >
> > > >
> > > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >>
> > > >> Hey Splappy,
> > > >>
> > > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > > >>
> > > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> > > >> civilian aircraft?
> > > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > > >> <snip>
> > > >> > wrote in message
> > > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
(T)empreture.
> > > >>
> > > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > > >
> > > > Yep.
> > >
> > > Nope.
> >
> > Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
they
> > are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
> >
> > One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.
> >
> > The irony of it all. :)
>
>
> do you know what "series" and "parallel" means ??

Sure. I am an engineer with a masters degree.

> the irony of it all indeed !

So funny and so stupid.

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > Tarver Engineering wrote:
> >
> > > Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
> they
> > > are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
> >
> > Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
> > entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.
>
> What is you post supposed to mean, Rick?
>
> Did you just want to make something up and look stupid?

thats purely your area of expertise, huh splaps boy.

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "JL Grasso" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:55:11 -0800, "Tarver Engineering" >
> > wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > >The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
> > >thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes are
> > >wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the thermocouple
> > >outputs together.
> > >
> > >Why do you post, Grasso, when it is clear that there is no subject WRT
> > >aircraft that you know? Perhaps you would do better sticking to your
> parts
> > >catalogs and forget about pretending you understand anything about
> aircraft.
> > >Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.
> >
> > You're the Wierd Al Yankovic of technology.
>
> I am an engineer with a masters degree and you are a clueless loser, Jerry.


a sewage engineer with a masters degree in landscape gardening.

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "JL Grasso" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:55:11 -0800, "Tarver Engineering" >
> > wrote:
>
> <snip>
> > >The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
> > >thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes are
> > >wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the thermocouple
> > >outputs together.
> > >
> > >Why do you post, Grasso, when it is clear that there is no subject WRT
> > >aircraft that you know? Perhaps you would do better sticking to your
> parts
> > >catalogs and forget about pretending you understand anything about
> aircraft.
> > >Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.
> >
> > You're the Wierd Al Yankovic of technology.
>
> I am an engineer with a masters degree and you are a clueless loser, Jerry.


Dick Van Dyke on crank ! who coined that expression again ?

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> Why would you think that adding the signals from
> thermocouples in series would add the temperature?

Well, maybe because the terminal voltage of thermocouples in
series is the multiple of the number of thermocouples.

In which case when the - the TURBINE inlet temperature - is
imposed on 18 thermocouples in series the output voltage is
18 times that of one thermocouple or 18 thermocouples in
parallel.

This concept which is so foreign to you is well known, it is
the basis of isotope or thermoelectric generators, the
arrangement is sometimes called a thermopile ... as opposed
to a Tarverpile which is a hot, steaming, but highly
unproductive, mound.

You must be a common troll, Tarver, it is inconceivable that
an adult with your level of reading and reasoning skills
could function outside a constant care facility. Maybe you
don't.

Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > Why would you think that adding the signals from
> > thermocouples in series would add the temperature?
>
> Well, maybe because the terminal voltage of thermocouples in
> series is the multiple of the number of thermocouples.

How would that have any bearing on temperature?

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> How do you survive in this world, Rick?

It must be good looks and technical skills.

As you so ably illustrate it doesn't take a lot of brains.

I found a link for you, Tarver. This is written and
illustrated at high school level so even you should be able
to read it.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_9/5.html

Let me know if you need help with any of the terms, like
series or parallel.

Rick

[Scott M. Kozel]

(running with scissors) wrote:
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
> > "JL Grasso" > wrote:
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
> >
> > > >The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
> > > >thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes are
> > > >wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the thermocouple
> > > >outputs together.
> > > >
> > > >Why do you post, Grasso, when it is clear that there is no subject WRT
> > > >aircraft that you know? Perhaps you would do better sticking to your parts
> > > >catalogs and forget about pretending you understand anything about aircraft.
> > > >Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.
> > >
> > > You're the Wierd Al Yankovic of technology.
> >
> > I am an engineer with a masters degree and you are a clueless loser, Jerry.
>
> a sewage engineer with a masters degree in landscape gardening.

Hey, c'mon, there's many fine civil engineers who design sewer systems,
and they IMO shouldn't be associated in with Splaps Boy!

[Scott M. Kozel]

"John Mazor" > wrote:
>
> "JL Grasso" > wrote
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>
> > >Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.
> >
> > You're the Wierd Al Yankovic of technology.
>
> The Svengali of Splaps

The Sultan of Splaps

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > How do you survive in this world, Rick?
>
> It must be good looks and technical skills.
>
> As you so ably illustrate it doesn't take a lot of brains.
>
> I found a link for you, Tarver. This is written and
> illustrated at high school level

Well thank you for placing the level of play where you might have home field
advantage.

Your problem, however is the term, "total" and not whatever direction you
want to take the thread, in an attempt to look less foolish.

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

>>Well, maybe because the terminal voltage of thermocouples in
>>series is the multiple of the number of thermocouples.
>
> How would that have any bearing on temperature?

Whoever is collecting "Tarverisms" just collected a classic.

Accept reality, Tarver, the thermocouples used to measure
TURBINE inlet temperature are wired in parallel. The
temperature displayed is an average. Multiple thermocouples
can fail and TIT information is still available. Series
wiring will result in failure of the system with the loss of
a single thermocouple. If that concept is difficult for you
just think about Christmas tree lights.

If you still want to fight about this it is absolute proof
you are a troll at best and a fool in any event.

Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> >>Well, maybe because the terminal voltage of thermocouples in
> >>series is the multiple of the number of thermocouples.
> >
> > How would that have any bearing on temperature?
>
> Whoever is collecting "Tarverisms" just collected a classic.
>
> Accept reality, Tarver, the thermocouples used to measure
> TURBINE inlet temperature are wired in parallel. The
> temperature displayed is an average.

A multi-thermocouple system on an airplane is a Total. It is not an
average, because it would be silly to devide by the number of sensors.

Quit being stupid and head for the showers, ricky.

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering, frantically backpedaling, wrote:

> Your problem, however is the term, "total" and not whatever direction you
> want to take the thread, in an attempt to look less foolish.

Any miscomprehension of TURBINE INLET TEMPERATURE is yours
alone. You are adrift in your own ocean of ignorance and
brute belligerence in fighting Allison, Rolls Royce, USN,
USAF, and dozens of T-56/501 operators and maintenance
facilities over the term and meaning of TIT.

The only thing TOTAL in this thread is your stupidity and
arrogance in the face of reality.

All you have shown so far is that any post witch originates
at Tarver Engineering is a promise of entertainment,
amusement, and a glimpse into the deeply disturbed
atmosphere of Tarverworld.

Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Tarver Engineering, frantically backpedaling, wrote:
>
> > Your problem, however is the term, "total" and not whatever direction
you
> > want to take the thread, in an attempt to look less foolish.
>
> Any miscomprehension of TURBINE INLET TEMPERATURE is yours
> alone.

Turbine Inlet Temperature is a linear function displayed to the operator,
but it must be derived from the sqrt(T) function that is Total Inlet
Temperature.

I don't know where you went to airplane school, Rick, but you may have
grounds for a lawsuit.

[Rick]

You are a bore. Slapping you around has become boring.

Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
...
> You are a bore. Slapping you around has become boring.

It is less fun when I kick your ass, instead of just laughing at you.

Yes, Ricky, the Miller archive troll is a sub-idiot detector.

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> Yes, Ricky, the Miller archive troll is a sub-idiot detector.

A very effective one at that, you were the first to respond
to the post.


Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > Yes, Ricky, the Miller archive troll is a sub-idiot detector.
>
> A very effective one at that, you were the first to respond
> to the post.

I gave fair warning as to the nature of the quagmire Miller's sub-idiots
were marching into. I can't help it that you ran off a cliff, Rick.

Buy youself a vowel.

[Jim Knoyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
> > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
> > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
>
> Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
>
Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
Read the book(s).

[ snip of nonsense ]

> So, Jimmy, when I call your work an idiot detector, I really mean it.
>
As others have noticed, it never fails to attract you. :-)

> Your's is a much nicer archive troll, as Miller is completely clueless
about
> the subject.
>
Thanks, I'll take that as a compliment.
For anyone who missed it:
http://home.att.net/~j.knoyle/the_tarver_chronicles.html

Jimmy

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
> > > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
> > > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
> >
> > Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
> >
> Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
> Read the book(s).

I have been writing that to you for years, Knoyle. That is why you seem
such an idiot when you insist a pitot port is a pitot tube.

Total means there is more than one sensor, nothing more.

[B2431]

>From: Jim Yanik
>Date: 1/17/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(B2431) wrote in
:
>
>>>From: Jim Yanik
>>>Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>"John R Weiss" > wrote in
>>>news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
>>>
>>>> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Yep.
>>>>>
>>>>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the
>>>>> T56-A-15 service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>>>>>
>>>>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
>>>>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
>>>>> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
>>>>> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
>>>>> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
>>>>> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
>>>>> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness
>>>>> assembly,
>>>>
>>>> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> So, let's revise.
>>>>
>>>> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
>>>> Chronicles! :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling
>>>them would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and
>>>compare to a reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal
>>>processing to convert the mV signal to a digital form,which could then
>>>be sent on a parallel bus?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jim Yanik
>>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>>>
>> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if
>> there were two or more.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
>Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
>parallel connection?
>
>--
>Jim Yanik
>jyanik-at-kua.net
>

All thermocouples are bi-metallic.

OK, try this on for size. Jet engines use chromal-alumal (type K) and recips
use iron-constantan (type J) thermocouples. The wires are also made of the same
type of material. If you mount several thermocouples in parallel then all plus
wires match and all minus wires match. As far as the cold junction end is
conserned the hot end has one thermocouple.

If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus etc. This
will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.

If you ever get a chance to look at a jet engine look at the EGT ring of
thermocouples. You will see they are in parallel.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Rick]

B2431 wrote:

> If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus etc. This
> will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.

They will produce voltage and current, but like you wrote,
series connecting them will introduce errors which make them
unsuitable for instrumentation or measurement use because of
the higher current flow through each junction.

Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> If you ever get a chance to look at a jet engine look at the EGT ring of
> thermocouples. You will see they are in parallel.

But T8 is not TIT and it is fed to a totalizer, as deviding only reduces
reliability.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> B2431 wrote:
>
> > If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus
etc. This
> > will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.
>
> They will produce voltage and current, but like you wrote,
> series connecting them will introduce errors which make them
> unsuitable for instrumentation or measurement use because of
> the higher current flow through each junction.

No, but parallel is better, although any way you look at it the sensor
system produces a Total.

[Ralph Nesbitt]

"George Ruch" > wrote in message
...
> Rick > wrote:
>
> >Tarver Engineering wrote:
> >
> >> Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
they
> >> are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
> >
> >Yeah, OK, so in Tarverworld the temperature of the gas
> >entering the turbine is around 18,000 degrees C.
>
> Roughly the surface temperature of a Class B star. Considering titanium
> boils at 3,278C, could this be ... magic metallurgy? <g, d & r>
>
> |George
>
Perhaps "Taverallurgy", Splapallurgy, or Splappy's B/S Allurgy" would be a
more appropriate term. Open for suggestion/debate re appropriate name for
this "Specialization".
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

[Ralph Nesbitt]

"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
...
> Is there a problem with your email account? Sent you one today and it
> bounced.
>
> Phil
To my knowledge no. I do use a mail screening program with a Friends List.
If you have changed your addy, that may be the problem. Let me know so I can
add the new addy if you have changed addy's.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

[Jim Knoyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
> > > > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
> > > > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
> > >
> > > Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
> > >
> > Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
> > Read the book(s).
>
> I have been writing that to you for years, Knoyle. That is why you seem
> such an idiot when you insist a pitot port is a pitot tube.
>
> Total means there is more than one sensor, nothing more.
>
You really don't understand how that one little opening on the end
of that pointy thing up front can detect static pressure (altitude)
as well as impact pressure (airspeed), do you. That's sad!

[Rich Ahrens]

Rick wrote:
> You must be a common troll, Tarver, it is inconceivable that an adult
> with your level of reading and reasoning skills could function outside a
> constant care facility. Maybe you don't.

Oh no, give Splappy his due. He's far from a common troll. He actually
believes the bull**** he posts!

------------------------------------------------------------------------
|Rich Ahrens | Homepage: http://www.visi.com/~rma/ |
|-----------------------------------------------|
|"In a world full of people only some want to fly - isn't that crazy?" |
------------------------------------------------------------------------

[B2431]

>From: Rick
>Date: 1/17/2004 1:45 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>B2431 wrote:
>
>> If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus etc.
>This
>> will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.
>
>They will produce voltage and current, but like you wrote,
>series connecting them will introduce errors which make them
>unsuitable for instrumentation or measurement use because of
>the higher current flow through each junction.
>
>Rick
>

True, you get a thermopile which has nothing to do with instrumentation.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/17/2004 1:49 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>> B2431 wrote:
>>
>> > If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus
>etc. This
>> > will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.
>>
>> They will produce voltage and current, but like you wrote,
>> series connecting them will introduce errors which make them
>> unsuitable for instrumentation or measurement use because of
>> the higher current flow through each junction.
>
>No, but parallel is better, although any way you look at it the sensor
>system produces a Total.
>
So every T.O. I ever read on the subject and every TIT indicator labelled
"turbine inlet temperature indicator" I ever changed or calibrated were wrong?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"

>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> If you ever get a chance to look at a jet engine look at the EGT ring of
>> thermocouples. You will see they are in parallel.
>
>But T8 is not TIT and it is fed to a totalizer, as deviding only reduces
>reliability.
>
>
You claim to have been a jet mech. If this were actually true you would know
the EGT thermocouple ring is easier to see than TIT. The front end of a jet
engine has more stuff in the way.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Jim Knoyle"
>Date: 1/17/2004 3:48 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >
>> > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
>> > > ...
>> > >
>> > > > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
>> > > > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
>> > > > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
>> > >
>> > > Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
>> > >
>> > Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
>> > Read the book(s).
>>
>> I have been writing that to you for years, Knoyle. That is why you seem
>> such an idiot when you insist a pitot port is a pitot tube.
>>
>> Total means there is more than one sensor, nothing more.
>>
>You really don't understand how that one little opening on the end
>of that pointy thing up front can detect static pressure (altitude)
>as well as impact pressure (airspeed), do you. That's sad!
>

The hole on the front only detects pitot pressure. If there are holes on the
side are for detecting static pressure.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jim Knoyle]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Jim Knoyle"
> >Date: 1/17/2004 3:48 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > >
> >> > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> >> > > ...
> >> > >
> >> > > > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
> >> > > > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
> >> > > > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
> >> > >
> >> > > Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
> >> > >
> >> > Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
> >> > Read the book(s).
> >>
> >> I have been writing that to you for years, Knoyle. That is why you
seem
> >> such an idiot when you insist a pitot port is a pitot tube.
> >>
> >> Total means there is more than one sensor, nothing more.
> >>
> >You really don't understand how that one little opening on the end
> >of that pointy thing up front can detect static pressure (altitude)
> >as well as impact pressure (airspeed), do you. That's sad!
> >
>
> The hole on the front only detects pitot pressure. If there are holes on
the
> side are for detecting static pressure.
>

No, sorry Dan, you'll have to refer to a more modern air data computer.
When the label at the top of the ADC switched from pitot to total, the
definition for Total Pressure (Pt) was given as:
"This is a pressure input (from the aircraft pitot probe) which varies
both with altitude and aircraft speed. (Range 3.11 to 42.50 in. Hg.)"
*This was a direct quote from a Honeywell HG280D DADC guide*
The book goes on to explain how the delta Ps is removed to arrive at
a more accurate airspeed. The Ps, whether obtained from the static
port(s) on the probe or flush mounted ports on the fuselage, is fed
through another fitting on the DADC (labeled static) and is something
else entirely. It does factor in to the math.

JK

[Ralph Nesbitt]

"Steve R." > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ralph Nesbitt" > wrote in message
> y.com...
> >
> > Lockheed has used some version/model of the Allison T-56 since "1956" on
> all
> > C-130 models. Yes it is called a Allison T-56 because it was a "56
model
> > Allison Turbine Engine". The same year the C-130 first flew at/from
> > Marietta, Ga.
> >
> > There have been numerous improvements made to this basic engine design
> over
> > the years to incorporate new technology, increase power, etc., but the
> basic
> > design remains the same.
> >
> > The "T 56-15 Model Allison Engine" referred to by Phil, means a Allison
> T-56
> > engine incorporating the 15 th update.
> >
> > Check the model # of the Allison T-56 engine used on the C-130J. If you
do
> a
> > little checking, you will find the T-56-15 engine was used on late C130
E
> &
> > G models.
> >
> > Tarver you claim to be an "Electrical Engineer". Don't you know better
> than
> > to argue with a person quoting the manual on a given/specified item?
> > Apparently not.
> > Ralph Nesbitt
> > Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type
>
>
> Actually, the J has the AE2100D3 engine. The T56 production line was shut
> down shortly after the J went into production.
> Steve R.
>
You are correct. The AE2100D3 engine looks similar to the T-56 series,
unless you see them size by side on an engine stand sans prop. The AE2100D3
makes the T-56 engine look like a "Baby" size wise. Thanks for helping
Tarver out. I was waiting for his reaction.
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

[Jim Yanik]

(B2431) wrote in
:

>>From: Jim Yanik
>>Date: 1/17/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
(B2431) wrote in
:
>>
>>>>From: Jim Yanik
>>>>Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
>>>>Message-id: >
>>>>
>>>>"John R Weiss" > wrote in
>>>>news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
>>>>
>>>>> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Yep.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the
>>>>>> T56-A-15 service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
>>>>>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in
>>>>>> the turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of
>>>>>> each assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature
>>>>>> indicating system, and...one...is connected to the electronic
>>>>>> datum control system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are
>>>>>> connected in parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple
>>>>>> harness assembly,
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> So, let's revise.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
>>>>> Chronicles! :-)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling
>>>>them would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and
>>>>compare to a reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal
>>>>processing to convert the mV signal to a digital form,which could
>>>>then be sent on a parallel bus?
>>>>
>>>>--
>>>>Jim Yanik
>>>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>>>>
>>> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if
>>> there were two or more.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>
>>
>>Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
>>Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
>>parallel connection?
>>
>>--
>>Jim Yanik
>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>>
>
> All thermocouples are bi-metallic.
>
> OK, try this on for size. Jet engines use chromal-alumal (type K) and
> recips use iron-constantan (type J) thermocouples.

The different bi-metal combos generate different volts/degree.

The wires are also
> made of the same type of material. If you mount several thermocouples
> in parallel then all plus wires match and all minus wires match. As
> far as the cold junction end is conserned the hot end has one
> thermocouple.
>
> If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus
> etc. This will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.

Just connecting them to a copper wire bus makes another bi-metal
junction,too,although it's not in the area being measured,and thus more
stable.

>
> If you ever get a chance to look at a jet engine look at the EGT ring
> of thermocouples. You will see they are in parallel.
>
> Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

You wire thermocouples in series and the voltage outputs add
together(sum).Parallel them,and one voltage bucks against the other.
Paralleling thermocouples is like parallelling two batteries of different
voltages.One works against the other.

I worked on thermocouple calibration while in the USAF,as a PMEL
technician(Precision Measurement Electronics Laboratory).


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[B2431]

From: Jim Yanik


<snip>

>>>>>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling
>>>>>them would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and
>>>>>compare to a reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal
>>>>>processing to convert the mV signal to a digital form,which could
>>>>>then be sent on a parallel bus?
>>>>>
>>>>>--
>>>>>Jim Yanik
>>>>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>>>>>
>>>> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if
>>>> there were two or more.
>>>>
>>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>>
>>>
>>>Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
>>>Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
>>>parallel connection?
>>>
>>>--
>>>Jim Yanik
>>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>>>
>>
>> All thermocouples are bi-metallic.
>>
>> OK, try this on for size. Jet engines use chromal-alumal (type K) and
>> recips use iron-constantan (type J) thermocouples.
>
>The different bi-metal combos generate different volts/degree.

The different combinations are for different temperature ranges. As I said all
thermocouples are bi metallic. The metals are determined solely by the
temperature being measured.

>
>The wires are also
>> made of the same type of material. If you mount several thermocouples
>> in parallel then all plus wires match and all minus wires match. As
>> far as the cold junction end is conserned the hot end has one
>> thermocouple.
>>

>
>Just connecting them to a copper wire bus makes another bi-metal
>junction,too,although it's not in the area being measured,and thus more
>stable.
>
The discussion is about aircraft. In aircraft the wires that run to the
indicator is of exactly the same type as in the thermocouple. The total wire
resistance is 8 ohms in ALL aircraft. There are a pair of wire spools in one
leg that are used to adjust this. Copper wire is never used.

>> If you ever get a chance to look at a jet engine look at the EGT ring
>> of thermocouples. You will see they are in parallel.
>>
>> Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
>You wire thermocouples in series and the voltage outputs add
>together(sum).Parallel them,and one voltage bucks against the other.
>Paralleling thermocouples is like parallelling two batteries of different
>voltages.One works against the other.
>
>I worked on thermocouple calibration while in the USAF,as a PMEL
>technician(Precision Measurement Electronics Laboratory).

>--
>Jim Yanik
>jyanik-at-kua.net
>

PMEL calibrated the test equipment I used on aircraft such as the jet cal
tester I used to test thermocouple systems. I can see why you might use copper
wire since it is more flexible than the chromel-alumel or iron-constantan we
used on aircraft. I don't know if you had to silver solder the leads to the
pins of cannon plugs, but on aircraft they had to be.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Jim Knoyle"
>Date: 1/17/2004 8:00 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: "Jim Knoyle"
>> >Date: 1/17/2004 3:48 PM Central Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >
>> >> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
>> >> > ...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
>> >> > > ...
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
>> >> > > > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
>> >> > > > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
>> >> > >
>> >> > Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
>> >> > Read the book(s).
>> >>
>> >> I have been writing that to you for years, Knoyle. That is why you
>seem
>> >> such an idiot when you insist a pitot port is a pitot tube.
>> >>
>> >> Total means there is more than one sensor, nothing more.
>> >>
>> >You really don't understand how that one little opening on the end
>> >of that pointy thing up front can detect static pressure (altitude)
>> >as well as impact pressure (airspeed), do you. That's sad!
>> >
>>
>> The hole on the front only detects pitot pressure. If there are holes on
>the
>> side are for detecting static pressure.
>>
>
>No, sorry Dan, you'll have to refer to a more modern air data computer.
>When the label at the top of the ADC switched from pitot to total, the
>definition for Total Pressure (Pt) was given as:
>"This is a pressure input (from the aircraft pitot probe) which varies
>both with altitude and aircraft speed. (Range 3.11 to 42.50 in. Hg.)"
>*This was a direct quote from a Honeywell HG280D DADC guide*
>The book goes on to explain how the delta Ps is removed to arrive at
>a more accurate airspeed. The Ps, whether obtained from the static
>port(s) on the probe or flush mounted ports on the fuselage, is fed
>through another fitting on the DADC (labeled static) and is something
>else entirely. It does factor in to the math.
>
>JK
>
OK, I see where you are coming from. The pitot pressure DOES vary by altitude.
To compensate for that when measuring airspeed you use static pressure to give
you altitude. Some aircraft detect static pressure from holes on the side of
the pitot tube and others have the static ports located elswhere.

I would be interested in seeing a schematic of your aircraft's pitot-static
systems including DADC. I have never worked on DADC. I did work on the CADC
abomination on the F-4E.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[[email protected]]

(B2431) wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>OK, I see where you are coming from. The pitot pressure DOES vary by altitude.
>To compensate for that when measuring airspeed you use static pressure to give
>you altitude. Some aircraft detect static pressure from holes on the side of
>the pitot tube and others have the static ports located elswhere.
>


But you need BOTH Dan, you cannot measure airspeed AND altitude
unless you have BOTH pitot pressure AND static pressure...
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote:

>

>
>No, sorry Dan, you'll have to refer to a more modern air data computer.
>When the label at the top of the ADC switched from pitot to total, the
>definition for Total Pressure (Pt) was given as:
>"This is a pressure input (from the aircraft pitot probe) which varies
>both with altitude and aircraft speed. (Range 3.11 to 42.50 in. Hg.)"
>*This was a direct quote from a Honeywell HG280D DADC guide*
>The book goes on to explain how the delta Ps is removed to arrive at
>a more accurate airspeed. The Ps, whether obtained from the static
>port(s) on the probe or flush mounted ports on the fuselage, is fed
>through another fitting on the DADC (labeled static) and is something
>else entirely. It does factor in to the math.
>
>JK
>
Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
alone. Or did I misunderstand you?

I'm sure that you know that lots of pitot tubes have both a
static port (flush mount on the side) and a 'ram air port' the
hole in the front to collect 'pitot pressure'.
--

-Gord.

[B2431]

>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 1/18/2004 12:48 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(B2431) wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>OK, I see where you are coming from. The pitot pressure DOES vary by
>altitude.
>>To compensate for that when measuring airspeed you use static pressure to
>give
>>you altitude. Some aircraft detect static pressure from holes on the side of
>>the pitot tube and others have the static ports located elswhere.
>>
>
>
>But you need BOTH Dan, you cannot measure airspeed AND altitude
>unless you have BOTH pitot pressure AND static pressure...
>--
>
>-Gord.
>
That's what I said.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Jim Knoyle]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Jim Knoyle"
> >Date: 1/17/2004 8:00 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >From: "Jim Knoyle"
> >> >Date: 1/17/2004 3:48 PM Central Standard Time
> >> >Message-id:
>
> >> >
[ snip ]
> >>
> >> The hole on the front only detects pitot pressure. If there are holes
on
> >the
> >> side are for detecting static pressure.
> >>
> >
> >No, sorry Dan, you'll have to refer to a more modern air data computer.
> >When the label at the top of the ADC switched from pitot to total, the
> >definition for Total Pressure (Pt) was given as:
> >"This is a pressure input (from the aircraft pitot probe) which varies
> >both with altitude and aircraft speed. (Range 3.11 to 42.50 in. Hg.)"
> >*This was a direct quote from a Honeywell HG280D DADC guide*
> >The book goes on to explain how the delta Ps is removed to arrive at
> >a more accurate airspeed. The Ps, whether obtained from the static
> >port(s) on the probe or flush mounted ports on the fuselage, is fed
> >through another fitting on the DADC (labeled static) and is something
> >else entirely. It does factor in to the math.
> >
> >JK
> >
> OK, I see where you are coming from. The pitot pressure DOES vary by
altitude.
> To compensate for that when measuring airspeed you use static pressure to
give
> you altitude. Some aircraft detect static pressure from holes on the side
of
> the pitot tube and others have the static ports located elswhere.
>
In another recent part of this thread that didn't get cross-posted from
a.d.a.
(is that cheering I hear? :) ) I mention how the 727, 757 & DC10 use the
flush mounted static ports whereas the 737, 747 & 767 use the combined
pitot/static probe. Since Tarver seems to infer that the combined
pitot/static
probe is somehow better, I couldn't resist getting in a jab as to how the
777
uses the seperate pitot tubes on the nose and the flush mounted static ports
on the fuselage. Seems the Boeing Engineers ignore his mud bee warnings. :)
They do use analog/digital conversion right at the probe or port and run
wiring instead of plumbing. Sounds like a good idea to me.

> I would be interested in seeing a schematic of your aircraft's
pitot-static
> systems including DADC. I have never worked on DADC. I did work on the
CADC
> abomination on the F-4E.
>
In this long running sparring with Tarver, I've placed a couple diagrams on
"his" page: http://home.att.net/~j.knoyle/the_tarver_chronicles.html
The DC10 plumbing diagram at the bottom of this came from the DADC book
mentioned above: http://home.att.net/~j.knoyle/mechtest.html
There is a 767 plumbing diagram at the bottom of this page:
http://home.att.net/~j.knoyle/pitot.html
Somewhere I came across this great 777 presentation:
http://euler.ecs.umass.edu/ece655/Boeing777.ppt

JK

[Jim Knoyle]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
> >No, sorry Dan, you'll have to refer to a more modern air data computer.
> >When the label at the top of the ADC switched from pitot to total, the
> >definition for Total Pressure (Pt) was given as:
> >"This is a pressure input (from the aircraft pitot probe) which varies
> >both with altitude and aircraft speed. (Range 3.11 to 42.50 in. Hg.)"
> >*This was a direct quote from a Honeywell HG280D DADC guide*
> >The book goes on to explain how the delta Ps is removed to arrive at
> >a more accurate airspeed. The Ps, whether obtained from the static
> >port(s) on the probe or flush mounted ports on the fuselage, is fed
> >through another fitting on the DADC (labeled static) and is something
> >else entirely. It does factor in to the math.
> >
> >JK
> >
> Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
> says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
> need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
> pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
> saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
> alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
>
Darn, Gord, I thought it sounded clear to me... still do.
It must be getting late. :) The book (and I) says that the
Ps component of Total Pressure must be taken into account.
The Ps from the other DADC fitting (labeled static) is used
to accomplish this. That's what I meant by "it does factor in..."
Can't tell (the value of) one without the other.

> I'm sure that you know that lots of pitot tubes have both a
> static port (flush mount on the side) and a 'ram air port' the
> hole in the front to collect 'pitot pressure'.
>
The combined pitot/static probe which I referred to by
"The Ps, whether obtained from the static port(s) on the probe
or flush mounted ports on the fuselage."

We all agree, we just don't know it. Sorry if I confused
the issue.

JK

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:

> Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
> says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
> need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
> pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
> saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
> alone. Or did I misunderstand you?

Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still wants
to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.

[[email protected]]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote:

>>
>The combined pitot/static probe which I referred to by
>"The Ps, whether obtained from the static port(s) on the probe
>or flush mounted ports on the fuselage."
>
>We all agree, we just don't know it. Sorry if I confused
>the issue.
>
>JK
>
Yes fine Jim...I think I read too much into your "This is a
pressure input...("rather than pressure 'inputs') sorry...yes we
all agree but don't know that we agree! :)
(I also know that John will disagree...and I didn't even read his
reply right below your post yet...) :)
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote:

>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
>
>> Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
>> says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
>> need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
>> pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
>> saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
>> alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
>
>Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still wants
>to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.
>

I know...ain't life a bitch John :) :)

--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
> >
> >> Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
> >> says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
> >> need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
> >> pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
> >> saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
> >> alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
> >
> >Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still
wants
> >to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.
> >
>
> I know...ain't life a bitch John :) :)

I have to free a few from the tarbaby, if I am to let Ed have what he wants.

[Jim Knoyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> ...
> > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
>
> > Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
> > says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
> > need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
> > pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
> > saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
> > alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
>
> Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still
wants
> to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.
>
>
Tell us about those mud wasps again, Splaps.

"Well no actually, there is no pitot tube on a 727, only a screened over
pitot static port.
But thanks for being an idiot once again.
No pitot tube silly bunny.
It would be profoundly stupid to put a home for mud wasps on an airplane
flying as much as a 727."
John Tarver

[Peter J Ross]

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 at 05:04 GMT, Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk:

>Peter J Ross > wrote in
:
>
>> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 at 03:28 GMT, Bertie the Bunyip wrote in
>> alt.alien.vampire.flonk.flonk.flonk:
>>
>>>"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "John Mazor" > wrote in message
>>>> ...
>>>>> "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>>>>> ...
>>>>> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
>>>>> > :
>>>>> >
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in
>>>>> > > message ...
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Hey Splappy,
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" > Newsgroups:
>>>>> > >> rec.aviation.military Subject: Re: Do Hercules military
>>>>> > >> aircraft use the same fuel as civilian aircraft? Date:
>>>>> > >> Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800 <snip>
>>>>> > >> > wrote in message
>>>>> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
>>>>> > >> > (T)empreture.
>>>>> > >>
>>>>> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet
>>>>> > >> Temperature.
>>>>> > >
>>>>> > > Yep.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Nope.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once again, Tarver goes TITs up.
>>>>
>>>> Once again the Bunyip has been mazored.
>>>>
>>>> Nice troll though.
>>>
>>>I'm an excellent troll, actually.
>>>
>>>Bertie
>>
>> Nah, you're crap! ;-)
>>
>> But what's this rec.aviation.military froup? How can anything
>> military be merely recreational?
>>
>You must have been out of circualtion. Check out the war in Iraq
>thing..

After dinner, we played a jolly game of "Hunt The WMD".

--
PJR :-)
mhm #34x8 Smeeter #30 WSD #42
Alcatroll Labs Inc. (Executive Vice-President)
news:alt.usenet.kooks - Hook, Line and Sinker, Dec 2003
news:alt.hackers.malicious - Wittiest Troll, 2003
news:alt.flame: Most Boring Writer, 2003
news:alt.fan.pjr - Usenet like Mother used to make

(Remove NOSPAM to reply)

[Tarver Engineering]

"Peter J Ross" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 at 05:04 GMT, Bertie the Bunyip wrote in

<snip>
> >> But what's this rec.aviation.military froup? How can anything
> >> military be merely recreational?
> >>
> >You must have been out of circualtion. Check out the war in Iraq
> >thing..
>
> After dinner, we played a jolly game of "Hunt The WMD".

Did you use mazoring to "hunt the WMD", or only conventional means?

[Richard Stewart]

Ralph Nesbitt wrote:

>
> "Steve R." > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Ralph Nesbitt" > wrote in message
>> y.com...
>> >
>> > Lockheed has used some version/model of the Allison T-56 since "1956"
>> > on
>> all
>> > C-130 models. Yes it is called a Allison T-56 because it was a "56
> model
>> > Allison Turbine Engine". The same year the C-130 first flew at/from
>> > Marietta, Ga.

Hi Guys,
I took some photos of a pair of Hercs last year, both with two different
sets of motors/blades (I'm not a herc-o-phile, so I have no idea)
What are these?

http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2003&id=aay
http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2003&id=aby
http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2003&id=aap
http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2003

Cheers,
Richard

[Steve R.]

First two are J-models, third looks like an H model. :o)
Steve R.


"Richard Stewart" > wrote in message
...
> Ralph Nesbitt wrote:
>
> >
> > "Steve R." > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> "Ralph Nesbitt" > wrote in message
> >> y.com...
> >> >
> >> > Lockheed has used some version/model of the Allison T-56 since "1956"
> >> > on
> >> all
> >> > C-130 models. Yes it is called a Allison T-56 because it was a "56
> > model
> >> > Allison Turbine Engine". The same year the C-130 first flew at/from
> >> > Marietta, Ga.
>
> Hi Guys,
> I took some photos of a pair of Hercs last year, both with two different
> sets of motors/blades (I'm not a herc-o-phile, so I have no idea)
> What are these?
>
>
http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2
003&id=aay
>
http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2
003&id=aby
>
http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2
003&id=aap
>
http://www.strawbale-house.com/gallery/view_photo.php?set_albumName=airshow2
003
>
> Cheers,
> Richard

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
> >
> > > Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
> > > says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
> > > need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
> > > pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
> > > saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
> > > alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
> >
> > Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still
wants
> > to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.

>I know...ain't life a bitch John :) :)

It is amazing that Knoyle would spend so much time and money on an archive
troll about pitot tubes, when he never knew what one was.

> Tell us about those mud wasps again, Splaps.

I need not go any further village idiot, Knoyle.

Your archive troll is purely a demonstration of your own stupidity, finally
revealed for all to see.

[Mary Shafer]

On 18 Jan 2004 08:08:50 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

> >From: "Gord Beaman" )
> >Date: 1/18/2004 12:48 AM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> (B2431) wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>OK, I see where you are coming from. The pitot pressure DOES vary by
> >altitude.
> >>To compensate for that when measuring airspeed you use static pressure to
> >give
> >>you altitude. Some aircraft detect static pressure from holes on the side of
> >>the pitot tube and others have the static ports located elswhere.
> >
> >But you need BOTH Dan, you cannot measure airspeed AND altitude
> >unless you have BOTH pitot pressure AND static pressure...
> >
> That's what I said.

Did you also say that you can't correct them without OAT, outside air
temperature? That's the third element of a pitot-static air data
system.

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "running with scissors" > wrote in
> message om...
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
>
> <snip>
> > > > I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> > > > service manual yesterday. Went like this...
> > >
> > > Same for any MM, the data does not need to be accurate.
> >
> > grief !
> > so if that were the case, then a generic manual would suffice.
>
> Nope, the manual has to be close enough to do the work. Errors in MMs are
> commomplace and not any real hazard.

hmmmmm of course slaps boy. a manual error is no real hazard. look at
the results of the recent BE-1900 incident.

Just as B-52 operators don't really
> need to know how their wing works,

no ?

> mechanics don't really need to know how a system works.

speaking from your own personal understanding then ?

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "running with scissors" > wrote in
> message om...
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
> > > > :
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Hey Splappy,
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > > > >>
> > > > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > > > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > > > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> > > > >> civilian aircraft?
> > > > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > > > >> <snip>
> > > > >> > wrote in message
> > > > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
> (T)empreture.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > > > >
> > > > > Yep.
> > > >
> > > > Nope.
> > >
> > > Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
> they
> > > are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
> > >
> > > One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.
> > >
> > > The irony of it all. :)
> >
> >
> > do you know what "series" and "parallel" means ??
>
> Sure. I am an engineer with a masters degree.

yup, see comment regarding.

>
> > the irony of it all indeed !
>
> So funny and so stupid.

it is. and even funnier that you clearly do not grasp the irony. dont
be so hard on yourself; stupid no, moronic, yes.

[running with scissors]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > Tarver Engineering, frantically backpedaling, wrote:
> >
> > > Your problem, however is the term, "total" and not whatever direction
> you
> > > want to take the thread, in an attempt to look less foolish.
> >
> > Any miscomprehension of TURBINE INLET TEMPERATURE is yours
> > alone.
>
> Turbine Inlet Temperature is a linear function displayed to the operator,
> but it must be derived from the sqrt(T) function that is Total Inlet
> Temperature.
>
> I don't know where you went to airplane school, Rick, but you may have
> grounds for a lawsuit.


perhaps it the school you went to, you know the one that gave you the
understanding that aircraft dont have a pitot as they make good homes
for mud wasps.

[running with scissors]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message >...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
> > > > > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
> > > > > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
> > > >
> > > > Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
> > > >
> > > Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
> > > Read the book(s).
> >
> > I have been writing that to you for years, Knoyle. That is why you seem
> > such an idiot when you insist a pitot port is a pitot tube.
> >
> > Total means there is more than one sensor, nothing more.
> >
> You really don't understand how that one little opening on the end
> of that pointy thing up front can detect static pressure (altitude)
> as well as impact pressure (airspeed), do you. That's sad!


you mean the mud wasp home surely ?

[running with scissors]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message >...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > Hey, Splaps. Next time you are ever near a DADC or it's diagram,
> > > > > check out what they have at the other end of the tubing connected
> > > > > to the fitting labeled *TOTAL*. Only ONE pitot tube!
> > > >
> > > > Yep, the term Total means they added two sensors.
> > > >
> > > Nope, the pitot tube detects static pressure + impact pressure.
> > > Read the book(s).
> >
> > I have been writing that to you for years, Knoyle. That is why you seem
> > such an idiot when you insist a pitot port is a pitot tube.
> >
> > Total means there is more than one sensor, nothing more.
> >
> You really don't understand how that one little opening on the end
> of that pointy thing up front can detect static pressure (altitude)
> as well as impact pressure (airspeed), do you. That's sad!


you mean the mud wasp home surely ?

[John R Weiss]

"Mary Shafer" > wrote...
>
> Did you also say that you can't correct them without OAT, outside air
> temperature? That's the third element of a pitot-static air data
> system.

What is required -- static air temperature (SAT) or total air temperature (TAT)
for the OAT correction?

If TAT, how is it measured, and how many thermocouples are required, in what
configuration?

[B2431]

>From: "John R Weiss"
>Date: 1/19/2004 2:05 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <_LWOb.85390$sv6.201965@attbi_s52>
>
>"Mary Shafer" > wrote...
>>
>> Did you also say that you can't correct them without OAT, outside air
>> temperature? That's the third element of a pitot-static air data
>> system.
>
>What is required -- static air temperature (SAT) or total air temperature
>(TAT)
>for the OAT correction?
>
>If TAT, how is it measured, and how many thermocouples are required, in what
>configuration?
>

It's OAT. Air speed measured with just pitot and static pressure is referred to
as indicated airspeed, IAS. If you temperature compensate it becomes true air
speed, TAS.

Basic mechanical analog TAS indicators use one of two methods of temperature
compensation: one uses a capillary tube from a bulb mounted on the exterior of
the of the aircraft , the other uses a knob where you can manually dial in OAT.
The C-130s I worked on had the capillary type.

Thermocouples are not used for electrically detected OAT. What is used is a
temperature bulb usually mounted flush to the skin of the aircraft. If you look
at a C-130 you will see a 2"(?) disk on the skin on either side ofthe nose
wheel well. Those are temperature bulbs. They vary in resistance due to
temperature change.

For the life of me I can't remember if the resistance increases or decreases
with temperature drop.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jim Knoyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
> > > > says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
> > > > need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
> > > > pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
> > > > saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
> > > > alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
> > >
> > > Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still
> wants
> > > to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.
>
> >I know...ain't life a bitch John :) :)
>
> It is amazing that Knoyle would spend so much time and money on an archive
> troll about pitot tubes, when he never knew what one was.
>
> > Tell us about those mud wasps again, Splaps.
>
> I need not go any further village idiot, Knoyle.
>
> Your archive troll is purely a demonstration of your own stupidity,
finally
> revealed for all to see.
>
Then tell us about the squadron of jets lost off Florida
because they didn't have P1T0 tubes!

"Well no actually, there is no pitot tube on a 727, only a screened over
pitot static port.
But thanks for being an idiot once again.
No pitot tube silly bunny.
It would be profoundly stupid to put a home for mud wasps on an airplane
flying as much as a 727."
John Tarver

[Jim Knoyle]

"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...
> On 18 Jan 2004 08:08:50 GMT, (B2431) wrote:
>
> > >From: "Gord Beaman" )
> > >Date: 1/18/2004 12:48 AM Central Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > (B2431) wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>OK, I see where you are coming from. The pitot pressure DOES vary by
> > >altitude.
> > >>To compensate for that when measuring airspeed you use static pressure
to
> > >give
> > >>you altitude. Some aircraft detect static pressure from holes on the
side of
> > >>the pitot tube and others have the static ports located elswhere.
> > >
> > >But you need BOTH Dan, you cannot measure airspeed AND altitude
> > >unless you have BOTH pitot pressure AND static pressure...
> > >
> > That's what I said.
>
> Did you also say that you can't correct them without OAT, outside air
> temperature? That's the third element of a pitot-static air data
> system.
>

Yes, but would you believe that this whole squabble began by trying
to correct Tarver's misconception that the "Total" fitting of the two
fittings on an air data computer (labeled Static and Total) referred to
two or more pitot gizmos (Tarver hates to call them tubes) instead
of altitude pressure plus impact pressure?

JK

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
...

Accept it, Jimmy, you are exposed as a dumbass; for all the world to see.

[[email protected]]

(B2431) wrote:

>>
>
>It's OAT. Air speed measured with just pitot and static pressure is referred to
>as indicated airspeed, IAS. If you temperature compensate it becomes true air
>speed, TAS.
>

Well, it's been many years but ISTR that there's another step
here. Isn't there such a thing as RAS?, maybe Rectified Air
Speed?...IAS corrected for temp? (or maybe CAS?). I thought TAS
was IAS corrected for altitude?

Man!...it was something like 27 years since I last stepped down
that six foot ladder under the tail of an Argus...and about 50
years since the F/E course where I learned this stuff (so cut me
some slack guys!).
--

-Gord.

[Jim Knoyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Tell us about those mud wasps again, Splaps.
>
> I need not go any further village idiot, Knoyle.
>
> Your archive troll is purely a demonstration of your own stupidity,
finally
> revealed for all to see.
>
Then tell us about the squadron of jets lost off Florida
because they didn't have P1T0 tubes!

"Well no actually, there is no pitot tube on a 727, only a screened over
pitot static port.
But thanks for being an idiot once again.
No pitot tube silly bunny.
It would be profoundly stupid to put a home for mud wasps on an airplane
flying as much as a 727."
John Tarver

> Accept it, Jimmy, you are exposed as a dumbass; for all the world to see.
>
Then tell us about the DC generators on 777s.

"That is false, even the 777 has a DC generator for each engine and the APU.
It would be unsafe to operate a transport any other way."
John Tarver

[Tom Mosher]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > Hey Splappy,
> >
> > Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> >
> > From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as civilian
> > aircraft?
> > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > <snip>
> > > wrote in message
> > > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> >
> > Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>
> Yep.
>
> Have you considered yet, Miller, that your zero knowledge of aircraft makes
> for a pretty rediculess archive troll?

Wrong numnuts.

CFM56's don't have TIT (turbine inlet temperature), they use EGT
(exhaust gas temperature).
RR Speys don't have TIT - they use ITT (interstage turbine
temperature).

Proves you don't know **** about aircraft engines or engine indicating
systems.

Tom Mosher
Senior Logistics Analyst for a MAJOR defense contractor.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Tom Mosher" > wrote in message
om...


> RR Speys don't have TIT - they use ITT (interstage turbine
> temperature).

My idiot, jet engines use T0 thru T8, with some stations skipped.

Besides that sub-idiot tommy, have you considered this?

>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
>
>> Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
>> says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
>> need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
>> pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
>> saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
>> alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
>
>Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still wants
>to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.
>

I know...ain't life a bitch John :) :)

--

-Gord.

You don't know what a pitot tube is either, do you, sub-idiot Mosher?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote in message
...
>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> "Jim Knoyle" > wrote:
>
>> Hang on here a second now Jim, you still need two samples. As Dan
>> says you need 'static pressure' to read the altitude from and you
>> need 'pitot pressure' (ram air pressure) as well as the static
>> pressure to derive the airspeed reading from. Sounds like you're
>> saying that you can read 'both' from just the 'ram air pressure'
>> alone. Or did I misunderstand you?
>
>Jim has finally figued out what a pitot tube is, but somehow he still wants
>to be correct in his archive troll. It is a great paradox.
>

I know...ain't life a bitch John :) :)

--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
.. .

> You wire thermocouples in series and the voltage outputs add
> together(sum).Parallel them,and one voltage bucks against the other.
> Paralleling thermocouples is like parallelling two batteries of different
> voltages.One works against the other.

What if the thermocouples are wired in parallel, to a totalizer?

Go back to sleep, Jim.

[Scet]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Jim Yanik
> >Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"John R Weiss" > wrote in
> >news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
> >
> >> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
> >>
> >>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >>>>
> >>>>Yep.
> >>>
> >>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> >>> service manual yesterday. Went like this...
> >>>
> >>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
> >>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
> >>> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
> >>> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
> >>> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
> >>> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
> >>> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness assembly,
> >>
> >> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
> >>
> >>
> >>> So, let's revise.
> >>
> >> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
> >> Chronicles! :-)
> >>
> >
> >bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling them
> >would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and compare to
a
> >reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal processing to
convert
> >the mV signal to a digital form,which could then be sent on a parallel
bus?
> >
> >--
> >Jim Yanik
> >jyanik-at-kua.net
> >
> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if there
were
> two or more.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dan, we went through this early last year I think it was and Tarver was
shown to be wrong as per normal. On T56 engines the thermocouples are
connected in parallel and pick up TIT, the signal is then averaged. They
are averaged due to the non-uniform temperatures that occur at the turbine
inlet due to the short time of spraying fuel from the nozzle, to fuel
ignition, to introducing the hot gasses at high velocity to the turbine
inlet. The hot gases are not completely mixed and so there are some
stratifications of hotter and cooler areas at the turbine inlet. The
temperature averaging function of the parallel thermocouple circuits
compensates for these non-uniform temperatures.

Scet

[Scet]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
.. .
> "John R Weiss" > wrote in
> news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
>
> > "Phil Miller" > wrote...
> >
> >>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >>>
> >>>Yep.
> >>
> >> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> >> service manual yesterday. Went like this...
> >>
> >> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
> >> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
> >> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
> >> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
> >> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
> >> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
> >> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness assembly,
> >
> > I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
> >
> >
> >> So, let's revise.
> >
> > That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
> > Chronicles! :-)
> >
>
> bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling them
> would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and compare to
a
> reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal processing to
convert
> the mV signal to a digital form,which could then be sent on a parallel
bus?
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik-at-kua.net

Sorry Jim, but it does work.

Scet

[Scet]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
...
> (B2431) wrote in
> :
>
> >>From: Jim Yanik
> >>Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
> >>Message-id: >
> >>
> >>"John R Weiss" > wrote in
> >>news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
> >>
> >>> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
> >>>
> >>>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Yep.
> >>>>
> >>>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the
> >>>> T56-A-15 service manual yesterday. Went like this...
> >>>>
> >>>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
> >>>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
> >>>> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
> >>>> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
> >>>> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
> >>>> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
> >>>> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness
> >>>> assembly,
> >>>
> >>> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> So, let's revise.
> >>>
> >>> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
> >>> Chronicles! :-)
> >>>
> >>
> >>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling
> >>them would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and
> >>compare to a reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal
> >>processing to convert the mV signal to a digital form,which could then
> >>be sent on a parallel bus?
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jim Yanik
> >>jyanik-at-kua.net
> >>
> > On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if
> > there were two or more.
> >
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >
>
> Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
> Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
> parallel connection?
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik-at-kua.net

Yep, an averaged TIT signal on a T56.

Scet

[Scet]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rick" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> > B2431 wrote:
> >
> > > If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus
> etc. This
> > > will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.
> >
> > They will produce voltage and current, but like you wrote,
> > series connecting them will introduce errors which make them
> > unsuitable for instrumentation or measurement use because of
> > the higher current flow through each junction.
>
> No, but parallel is better, although any way you look at it the sensor
> system produces a Total.



Wrong John, average on a T56

Scet

[Scet]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
.. .
> (B2431) wrote in
> :
>
> >>From: Jim Yanik
> >>Date: 1/17/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time
> >>Message-id: >
> >>
> (B2431) wrote in
> :
> >>
> >>>>From: Jim Yanik
> >>>>Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
> >>>>Message-id: >
> >>>>
> >>>>"John R Weiss" > wrote in
> >>>>news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
> >>>>
> >>>>> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Yep.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the
> >>>>>> T56-A-15 service manual yesterday. Went like this...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
> >>>>>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in
> >>>>>> the turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of
> >>>>>> each assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature
> >>>>>> indicating system, and...one...is connected to the electronic
> >>>>>> datum control system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are
> >>>>>> connected in parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple
> >>>>>> harness assembly,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> So, let's revise.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
> >>>>> Chronicles! :-)
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling
> >>>>them would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and
> >>>>compare to a reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal
> >>>>processing to convert the mV signal to a digital form,which could
> >>>>then be sent on a parallel bus?
> >>>>
> >>>>--
> >>>>Jim Yanik
> >>>>jyanik-at-kua.net
> >>>>
> >>> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel if
> >>> there were two or more.
> >>>
> >>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >>>
> >>
> >>Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
> >>Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
> >>parallel connection?
> >>
> >>--
> >>Jim Yanik
> >>jyanik-at-kua.net
> >>
> >
> > All thermocouples are bi-metallic.
> >
> > OK, try this on for size. Jet engines use chromal-alumal (type K) and
> > recips use iron-constantan (type J) thermocouples.
>
> The different bi-metal combos generate different volts/degree.
>
> The wires are also
> > made of the same type of material. If you mount several thermocouples
> > in parallel then all plus wires match and all minus wires match. As
> > far as the cold junction end is conserned the hot end has one
> > thermocouple.
> >
> > If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus--> minus
> > etc. This will introduce one heck of an error if it works at all.
>
> Just connecting them to a copper wire bus makes another bi-metal
> junction,too,although it's not in the area being measured,and thus more
> stable.
>
> >
> > If you ever get a chance to look at a jet engine look at the EGT ring
> > of thermocouples. You will see they are in parallel.
> >
> > Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>
> You wire thermocouples in series and the voltage outputs add
> together(sum).Parallel them,and one voltage bucks against the other.
> Paralleling thermocouples is like parallelling two batteries of different
> voltages.One works against the other.
>
> I worked on thermocouple calibration while in the USAF,as a PMEL
> technician(Precision Measurement Electronics Laboratory).
>
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik-at-kua.net

That is not how it works on the T56 Jim. The voltages don't buck or work
agaianst each other. It's not mysterious untried technology, it's been
around for decades and there is plenty of info around on it.

Scet

[Scet]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 07:13:54 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >>
> > >> Hey Splappy,
> > >>
> > >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > >>
> > >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
> civilian
> > >> aircraft?
> > >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > >> <snip>
> > >> > wrote in message
> > >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> > >>
> > >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > >
> > >Yep.
> >
> > I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> > service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>
> Same for any MM, the data does not need to be accurate.
>
> Any engine temperature station using more than one probe is a Total.
>
> That is how it works.

No it isn't John and you know it from the discussion we had on this subject
last time....you were wrong then and you are wrong now.

Scet
>
>

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> What if the thermocouples are wired in parallel, to a totalizer?

So now you are using the "p" word as if you knew it all
along ... geez, Tarver, you are a piece of work.

Now tell us what this "totalizer" thing is that somehow
processes whatever you think thermocouples manufacture.

Rick

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > What if the thermocouples are wired in parallel, to a totalizer?
>
> So now you are using the "p" word as if you knew it all
> along ... geez, Tarver, you are a piece of work.

Sure and Yanik already notified you of the series type thermocouple
connection.

Are you really this dense, Rick, or are you just being a little turd?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...

> Dan, we went through this early last year I think it was and Tarver was
> shown to be wrong as per normal.

No Scat, I was correct then and correct now. The only difference is that
this time the Knoyle archive troll has collapsed.

You know, that idiot detector you bought into?

Or are you a Miller archive troll sub-idiot?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
> Sorry Jim, but it does work.

Sorry Scat, but it does work and is how the J-52, J57 and J-75 engines were
instrumented.

What is it you do, little troll?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...

<snip>
> Yep, an averaged TIT signal on a T56.

Nope, only an idiot would devide the Total.

To devide would only increase the complexity and reduce reliability.

Are you a janitor, by any chance, Scat?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...

> No it isn't John and you know it from the discussion we had on this
subject
> last time....you were wrong then and you are wrong now.

I am still correct, the only difference is that I proved it in this thread.

You are making a fool of yourself, Scat.

[running with scissors]

(Tom Mosher) wrote in message >...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message >...
> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > Hey Splappy,
> > >
> > > Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > >
> > > From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > > Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > > Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as civilian
> > > aircraft?
> > > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > > <snip>
> > > > wrote in message
> > > > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet (T)empreture.
> > >
> > > Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> >
> > Yep.
> >
> > Have you considered yet, Miller, that your zero knowledge of aircraft makes
> > for a pretty rediculess archive troll?
>
> Wrong numnuts.
>
> CFM56's don't have TIT (turbine inlet temperature), they use EGT
> (exhaust gas temperature).
> RR Speys don't have TIT - they use ITT (interstage turbine
> temperature).
>
> Proves you don't know **** about aircraft engines or engine indicating
> systems.
>
> Tom Mosher
> Senior Logistics Analyst for a MAJOR defense contractor.


or aerodynamics and flight control surfaces either !

[B2431]

>From: "Scet"
>
<snip>

>Dan, we went through this early last year I think it was and Tarver was
>shown to be wrong as per normal. On T56 engines the thermocouples are
>connected in parallel and pick up TIT, the signal is then averaged. They
>are averaged due to the non-uniform temperatures that occur at the turbine
>inlet due to the short time of spraying fuel from the nozzle, to fuel
>ignition, to introducing the hot gasses at high velocity to the turbine
>inlet. The hot gases are not completely mixed and so there are some
>stratifications of hotter and cooler areas at the turbine inlet. The
>temperature averaging function of the parallel thermocouple circuits
>compensates for these non-uniform temperatures.
>
>Scet
>

Oh, heck, and I bet I missed a bunch of tarverisms.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/21/2004 8:29 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Scet" > wrote in message
...
>
>> No it isn't John and you know it from the discussion we had on this
>subject
>> last time....you were wrong then and you are wrong now.
>
>I am still correct, the only difference is that I proved it in this thread.
>
>You are making a fool of yourself, Scat.
>
Tarver, at the risk of a barrage of filth from you, can you provide a web site
other than yours that shows TIT or EGT thermocouples in series?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Ralph Nesbitt]

"running with scissors" > wrote in
message om...
> (Tom Mosher) wrote in message
>...
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
>...
> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > Hey Splappy,
> > > >
> > > > Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
> > > >
> > > > From: "Tarver Engineering" >
> > > > Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
> > > > Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
civilian
> > > > aircraft?
> > > > Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
> > > > <snip>
> > > > > wrote in message
> > > > > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
(T)empreture.
> > > >
> > > > Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > >
> > > Yep.
> > >
> > > Have you considered yet, Miller, that your zero knowledge of aircraft
makes
> > > for a pretty rediculess archive troll?
> >
> > Wrong numnuts.
> >
> > CFM56's don't have TIT (turbine inlet temperature), they use EGT
> > (exhaust gas temperature).
> > RR Speys don't have TIT - they use ITT (interstage turbine
> > temperature).
> >
> > Proves you don't know **** about aircraft engines or engine indicating
> > systems.
> >
> > Tom Mosher
> > Senior Logistics Analyst for a MAJOR defense contractor.
>
>
> or aerodynamics and flight control surfaces either !
>
Considering the "Pitot Tube" discussion currently taking place in another
thread; Splapy knows nothing about "Pitot Tubes" either.

Isn't it amazing how much can be learned by following the posts of those
correcting Splapy!
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

[fudog50]

Tarver, you were "totally" wrong in your original response dated Nov
8th, 2002 about T-56's and TIT. I can't speak for other motors but I
do know a T56-14 pretty well and have changed enough t-couples and
enough TIT gauges and done hundreds enough efficiency runs and
calculations to know that it is actually "Turbine Inlet Temperature".
You have since tried to tap dance around being put on the spot, too
funny! I got one for you, Mr. T-56, how can T-56 efficiencies
sometimes be measured at over 100%??? And what are the test cell
limits and the allowable differences between test cell runups and on
the wing measurements? What are the allowable differences between
flights? Ok, Mr. T-56, Lets hear your expalnation on this? How many
t-couples on a T-56 have you actually changed out? How many hours,
days etc. have you actually spent chasing an efficiency problem?

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:28:29 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> wrote:

>
>"Scet" > wrote in message
...
>
><snip>
>> Yep, an averaged TIT signal on a T56.
>
>Nope, only an idiot would devide the Total.
>
>To devide would only increase the complexity and reduce reliability.
>
>Are you a janitor, by any chance, Scat?
>

[fudog50]

T-56's don't have TAT probes Jackass

On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 18:55:11 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> wrote:

>
>"JL Grasso" > wrote in message
...
>> On Fri, 16 Jan 2004 17:57:34 -0800, "Tarver Engineering" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in
>> >> :
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>> >> > ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Hey Splappy,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Do you remember this series of pronouncements;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> From: "Tarver Engineering" >
>> >> >> Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
>> >> >> Subject: Re: Do Hercules military aircraft use the same fuel as
>> >> >> civilian aircraft?
>> >> >> Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 19:19:37 -0800
>> >> >> <snip>
>> >> >> > wrote in message
>> >> >> > Not really. On the T56 engine TIT = (T)urbine (I)nlet
>(T)empreture.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
>> >> >
>> >> > Yep.
>> >>
>> >> Nope.
>> >
>> >Yep, the individually wired theromcouples are sent to a Totalizer, when
>they
>> >are not wired in series. That is why the datum is a total.
>> >
>> >One has to wonder if the trolls of ram will ever catch a clue.
>> >
>> >The irony of it all. :)
>>
>> Total Air Temperature (TAT)is the maximum temperature attainable by air
>> when brought to rest adiabatically.
>
>Total Air Temperature is the total of several probes at the inlet of the
>engine. (ie T1)
>
>> The word "Total", when used to
>> describe the type of temperature reading that a probe is reporting, has
>> nothing to do with totalizers or wiring connections.
>
>The term "total" has to do with the use of multiple probes. Wiring
>thermocoulpes in seris gives a Total temperature. Where the probes are
>wired in parallel, a Totalizer is used downstream to add the thermocouple
>outputs together.
>
>Why do you post, Grasso, when it is clear that there is no subject WRT
>aircraft that you know? Perhaps you would do better sticking to your parts
>catalogs and forget about pretending you understand anything about aircraft.
>Otherwise, you are likely to become a hazard to aviation.
>

[fudog50]

That is the most ridiculous statement I've heard from you yet, Tarver,
what are you smoking??? You are in my book as being seriously demented
now, whats wrong with you? Where do you come up with that kind of off
the wall crap??? I seriously hope our Govt doesn't do business with
you, or you are not on a Govt project, I'd drop a dime on you for
being a Jackass.

On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 08:23:33 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
> wrote:

>
>"running with scissors" > wrote in
>message om...
>> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
>...
>> > "Phil Miller" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>
><snip>
>> > > I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
>> > > service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>> >
>> > Same for any MM, the data does not need to be accurate.
>>
>> grief !
>> so if that were the case, then a generic manual would suffice.
>
>Nope, the manual has to be close enough to do the work. Errors in MMs are
>commomplace and not any real hazard. Just as B-52 operators don't really
>need to know how their wing works, mechanics don't really need to know how a
>system works.
>

[Scet]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > "John R Weiss" > wrote in
> > news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
> >
> > > "Phil Miller" > wrote...
> > >
> > >>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet Temperature.
> > >>>
> > >>>Yep.
> > >>
> > >> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the T56-A-15
> > >> service manual yesterday. Went like this...
> > >>
> > >> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
> > >> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted in the
> > >> turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple of each
> > >> assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature indicating
> > >> system, and...one...is connected to the electronic datum control
> > >> system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples are connected in
> > >> parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine thermocouple harness assembly,
> > >
> > > I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
> > >
> > >
> > >> So, let's revise.
> > >
> > > That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
> > > Chronicles! :-)
> > >
> >
> > bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and paralleling them
> > would not work.Standard practice is to series-connect them,and compare
to
> a
> > reference junction.Do these assemblies include signal processing to
> convert
> > the mV signal to a digital form,which could then be sent on a parallel
> bus?
> >
> > --
> > Jim Yanik
> > jyanik-at-kua.net
>
> Sorry Jim, but it does work.
>
> Scet

Don't hide behind Google John, we all know you are wrong and know nothing
about the subject. If you want to reply using Google hoping that most guys
won't read your **** that's fine but it only makes you look stupider than
you are( If that's possible) post your answers here for everones benefit, at
the very least it is worth a laugh.

Scet
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"fudog50" > wrote in message
...
> Tarver, you were "totally" wrong in your original response dated Nov
> 8th, 2002 about T-56's and TIT.

Nope, but thanks for playing.

Did you figure out that sailors call those things you think are "ships",
"boats" yet?

I mean, Funny dude, if you can't figure out what is going on right where you
are, how can we believe anything you write about what is farther away?

> "Turbine Inlet Temperature".

Turbine inlet temperature is a linear function, my idiot.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 1/21/2004 8:29 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Scet" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> No it isn't John and you know it from the discussion we had on this
> >subject
> >> last time....you were wrong then and you are wrong now.
> >
> >I am still correct, the only difference is that I proved it in this
thread.
> >
> >You are making a fool of yourself, Scat.
> >
> Tarver, at the risk of a barrage of filth from you, can you provide a web
site
> other than yours that shows TIT or EGT thermocouples in series?

You are too confused for me to even respond, Dan.

[Jim Yanik]

"Scet" > wrote in
:

>
> "Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
> .. .
>> (B2431) wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >>From: Jim Yanik
>> >>Date: 1/17/2004 10:17 AM Central Standard Time
>> >>Message-id: >
>> >>
>> (B2431) wrote in
>> :
>> >>
>> >>>>From: Jim Yanik
>> >>>>Date: 1/16/2004 6:53 PM Central Standard Time
>> >>>>Message-id: >
>> >>>>
>> >>>>"John R Weiss" > wrote in
>> >>>>news:Sp%Nb.73504$nt4.98595@attbi_s51:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> "Phil Miller" > wrote...
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>>>> Yes really, on every jet engine TIT is Total Inlet
>> >>>>>>>> Temperature.
>> >>>>>>>
>> >>>>>>>Yep.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> I ask because I came across an interesting paragraph in the
>> >>>>>> T56-A-15 service manual yesterday. Went like this...
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> ...measures the turbine inlet temperature by means of
>> >>>>>> thermocouples...Eighteen thermocouple assemblies are mounted
>> >>>>>> in the turbine inlet casing of each engine...One thermocouple
>> >>>>>> of each assembly is connected to the turbine inlet temperature
>> >>>>>> indicating system, and...one...is connected to the electronic
>> >>>>>> datum control system. The 18 indicating system thermocouples
>> >>>>>> are connected in parallel [!!] by the indicator turbine
>> >>>>>> thermocouple harness assembly,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I'm surprised you ever doubted the truth on this one!
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> So, let's revise.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> That's going a bit too far... Nobody can revise the Tarver
>> >>>>> Chronicles! :-)
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>bimetallic thermocouples generate millivolt signals,and
>> >>>>paralleling them would not work.Standard practice is to
>> >>>>series-connect them,and compare to a reference junction.Do these
>> >>>>assemblies include signal processing to convert the mV signal to
>> >>>>a digital form,which could then be sent on a parallel bus?
>> >>>>
>> >>>>--
>> >>>>Jim Yanik
>> >>>>jyanik-at-kua.net
>> >>>>
>> >>> On every aircraft I ever worked on thermocouples were in parallel
>> >>> if there were two or more.
>> >>>
>> >>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>Well,I guess they aren't bimetallic thermocouples,then.
>> >>Anyone have any speculation on what sort of signal will work with a
>> >>parallel connection?
>> >>
>> >>--
>> >>Jim Yanik
>> >>jyanik-at-kua.net
>> >>
>> >
>> > All thermocouples are bi-metallic.
>> >
>> > OK, try this on for size. Jet engines use chromal-alumal (type K)
>> > and recips use iron-constantan (type J) thermocouples.
>>
>> The different bi-metal combos generate different volts/degree.
>>
>> The wires are also
>> > made of the same type of material. If you mount several
>> > thermocouples in parallel then all plus wires match and all minus
>> > wires match. As far as the cold junction end is conserned the hot
>> > end has one thermocouple.
>> >
>> > If you mount them in series you get plus --> minus --> plus-->
>> > minus etc. This will introduce one heck of an error if it works at
>> > all.
>>
>> Just connecting them to a copper wire bus makes another bi-metal
>> junction,too,although it's not in the area being measured,and thus
>> more stable.
>>
>> >
>> > If you ever get a chance to look at a jet engine look at the EGT
>> > ring of thermocouples. You will see they are in parallel.
>> >
>> > Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired
>>
>> You wire thermocouples in series and the voltage outputs add
>> together(sum).Parallel them,and one voltage bucks against the other.
>> Paralleling thermocouples is like parallelling two batteries of
>> different voltages.One works against the other.
>>
>> I worked on thermocouple calibration while in the USAF,as a PMEL
>> technician(Precision Measurement Electronics Laboratory).
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jim Yanik
>> jyanik-at-kua.net
>
> That is not how it works on the T56 Jim. The voltages don't buck or
> work agaianst each other. It's not mysterious untried technology, it's
> been around for decades and there is plenty of info around on it.
>
> Scet
>
>
>

Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources of
slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a basic
principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage sources.



--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[Jim Yanik]

"Scet" > wrote in
:



>
> Dan, we went through this early last year I think it was and Tarver
> was shown to be wrong as per normal. On T56 engines the thermocouples
> are connected in parallel and pick up TIT, the signal is then
> averaged. They are averaged due to the non-uniform temperatures that
> occur at the turbine inlet due to the short time of spraying fuel from
> the nozzle, to fuel ignition, to introducing the hot gasses at high
> velocity to the turbine inlet. The hot gases are not completely mixed
> and so there are some stratifications of hotter and cooler areas at
> the turbine inlet. The temperature averaging function of the parallel
> thermocouple circuits compensates for these non-uniform temperatures.
>
> Scet
>
>
>

I fail to see how the separate thermocouples outputs will be
"averaged",because any individual TC cannot rise in output,as all the
others parallelled will prevent any rise in voltage.Or current would flow
from a higher V to a lower one,just as if you wired batteries of different
voltages together,you end up with circulating currents until all cells are
of equal voltage..
Seems to me that parallelling them is only for the possibility of an
individual thermocouple to be burned out or open.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[Tarver Engineering]

"fudog50" > wrote in message
...
> That is the most ridiculous statement I've heard from you yet, Tarver,
> what are you smoking??? You are in my book as being seriously demented
> now, whats wrong with you? Where do you come up with that kind of off
> the wall crap??? I seriously hope our Govt doesn't do business with
> you, or you are not on a Govt project, I'd drop a dime on you for
> being a Jackass.


The B-52 wing aerodynamics were discussed here at ram and then in about a
dozen .sci threads. The USAF teaches that small amounts of spoiler acutally
increase lift, but that is incorrect. Buffdrver, a real B-52 pilot has
already written to USAF about their error. USAF, of course, doesn't need
their pilots to understand how the wing actually works.

Did you figure out where the "boats" are yet, dog?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
.. .
> "Scet" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>
> >
> > Dan, we went through this early last year I think it was and Tarver
> > was shown to be wrong as per normal. On T56 engines the thermocouples
> > are connected in parallel and pick up TIT, the signal is then
> > averaged. They are averaged due to the non-uniform temperatures that
> > occur at the turbine inlet due to the short time of spraying fuel from
> > the nozzle, to fuel ignition, to introducing the hot gasses at high
> > velocity to the turbine inlet. The hot gases are not completely mixed
> > and so there are some stratifications of hotter and cooler areas at
> > the turbine inlet. The temperature averaging function of the parallel
> > thermocouple circuits compensates for these non-uniform temperatures.

> I fail to see how the separate thermocouples outputs will be
> "averaged",because any individual TC cannot rise in output,as all the
> others parallelled will prevent any rise in voltage.Or current would flow
> from a higher V to a lower one,just as if you wired batteries of different
> voltages together,you end up with circulating currents until all cells are
> of equal voltage..

Also, Jim, the "total" is what you want for such small signals. Averaging
would only reduce: accuracy, reliability simplicity.

Scet is just being ignorant.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
.. .

> Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources of
> slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a basic
> principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage sources.

I always wanted to take one of the series connection wiring on out J-75's
TIT ring, but I was afraid I would get an Article 15.

[Tarver Engineering]

"fudog50" > wrote in message
...

> I seriously hope our Govt doesn't do business with
> you, or you are not on a Govt project, I'd drop a dime on you for
> being a Jackass.

As an adendum, I am the oracale for what Steidle is doing. When you are
instructed to make a purchase from my manufacturer, Dog, I recommend you
keep your mouth shut and remember, we are "sole source".

[John R Weiss]

"fudog50" > wrote...
> T-56's don't have TAT probes . . .

Now, now...

Regardless of the truth of your statement and the BS index of Tarver's previous
claims, he "wins" in his little mind when he sees people like us stoop to his
level.

It's MUCH better to simply publish the facts with the appropriate documentation
so the uninitiated around here don't try to rely on his BS as real information.

[Tarver Engineering]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:uKTPb.104278$nt4.335147@attbi_s51...
> "fudog50" > wrote...
> > T-56's don't have TAT probes . . .
>
> Now, now...
>
> Regardless of the truth of your statement and the BS index of Tarver's
previous
> claims, he "wins" in his little mind when he sees people like us stoop to
his
> level.

The irony is rich ...

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> You are too confused for me to even respond, Dan.

Several of us have provided links to thermocouple sites,
engine manufacturer's and operator's sites that prove you to
be a fool and an idiot.

If you know otherwise you should be delighted to slam dunk
your growing list of detractors.

It's a "put up or shut up" thing, Tarver. I doubt you are
capable of either.

Rick

[Rick]

Jim Yanik wrote:

> Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources of
> slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a basic
> principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage sources.

Just in case you are not just a Taver sock puppet and are
truly as technically challenged as your posts indicate:

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_9/5.html

Rick

[Rick]

Tarver Engineering drooled on his crayons:

> Also, Jim, the "total" is what you want for such small signals. Averaging
> would only reduce: accuracy, reliability simplicity.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_9/5.html

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/22/2004 9:30 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 1/21/2004 8:29 PM Central Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Scet" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >> No it isn't John and you know it from the discussion we had on this
>> >subject
>> >> last time....you were wrong then and you are wrong now.
>> >
>> >I am still correct, the only difference is that I proved it in this
>thread.
>> >
>> >You are making a fool of yourself, Scat.
>> >
>> Tarver, at the risk of a barrage of filth from you, can you provide a web
>site
>> other than yours that shows TIT or EGT thermocouples in series?
>
>You are too confused for me to even respond, Dan.
>

Tarver, I didn't think you could. You simply aren't man enough to say "I can't
because there is no such thing."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>Subject: Re: Hercules Engines
>From: Rick
>Date: 1/22/2004 12:43 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>Tarver Engineering drooled on his crayons:
>
>> Also, Jim, the "total" is what you want for such small signals. Averaging
>> would only reduce: accuracy, reliability simplicity.
>
>http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_9/5.html

Don't bring facts or evidence into an argument with tarver. It just confuses
the boy. :)

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

Jim Yanik wrote:

"Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources of
slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a basic
principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage sources."

Just picking a nit here. All thermocouples are bimetallic by definition so the
term "bimetal thermocouple" is redundant. It's kind of like saying "8 am in
the morning."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jonathan Stone]

In article >,
Tarver Engineering > wrote:

No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
sleeve-valve radial.

(Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
nk.net...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > You are too confused for me to even respond, Dan.
>
> Several of us have provided links to thermocouple sites,
> engine manufacturer's and operator's sites that prove you to
> be a fool and an idiot.

Yanik was a thermocouple tech, I was a jet engine mechanic and you are the
idiot, Ricky. You seem to be completely stupid and unable to learn.

Now go do a Google seach and congradulate yourself, dippy.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
link.net...
> Tarver Engineering drooled on his crayons:
>
> > Also, Jim, the "total" is what you want for such small signals.
Averaging
> > would only reduce: accuracy, reliability simplicity.
>
> http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_9/5.html

LOL

What a dip**** you are, Ricky.

Yanik was a theromouple tech, we don't need your clueless web searches.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rick" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> > Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources of
> > slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a basic
> > principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage sources.
>
> Just in case you are not just a Taver sock puppet

Dip****, Ricky, Mr. Yanik is telling you how it is.

We don't need your clueless web searches.

Are you really this stupid, Rick?

Just because someone wrote something in an URL has no bearing on whether it
is true.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>
> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
> sleeve-valve radial.
>
> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)

That is a lot of sparkplugs.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...

> Oh, heck, and I bet I missed a bunch of tarverisms.

You are bought into the miller sub-idiot detecor, aren't you, Dan?

I know you are a Knoyle Idiot member.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 1/22/2004 9:30 AM Central Standard Time

<snip>
> >> Tarver, at the risk of a barrage of filth from you, can you provide a
web site
> >> other than yours that shows TIT or EGT thermocouples in series?
> >
> >You are too confused for me to even respond, Dan.
> >
>
> Tarver, I didn't think you could. You simply aren't man enough to say "I
can't
> because there is no such thing."

Why should I deal with anymore of your senile meanderings?

Your favorite archive troll is in ashes and you are a certified idiot, Dan.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Hercules Engines
> >From: Rick
> >Date: 1/22/2004 12:43 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: . net>
> >
> >Tarver Engineering drooled on his crayons:
> >
> >> Also, Jim, the "total" is what you want for such small signals.
Averaging
> >> would only reduce: accuracy, reliability simplicity.
> >
> >http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_9/5.html
>
> Don't bring facts or evidence into an argument with tarver. It just
confuses
> the boy. :)

Yes, that electricity stuff is tough for us with only an MSEE and a PE.

Gald we got ol' smart Dan here ...

Bwahahahahahahaha

[Jonathan Stone]

In article >,
Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>
>"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>>
>> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
>> sleeve-valve radial.
>>
>> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
>
>That is a lot of sparkplugs.

No, its completely true. Read carefully.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
> >
> >"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >,
> >> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
> >>
> >> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
> >> sleeve-valve radial.
> >>
> >> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
> >
> >That is a lot of sparkplugs.
>
> No, its completely true. Read carefully.

I see, but you are misusing the term radial WRT turbojets, as the term
radial refers to compressor flow. (ie T-33) Yes, I worked on T-33 motors.

Nice analogy though.

What would you call the new sleevless axial flow high bypass burners?

[Scet]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scet" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
> > Yep, an averaged TIT signal on a T56.
>
> Nope, only an idiot would devide the Total.
>
> To devide would only increase the complexity and reduce reliability.
>
> Are you a janitor, by any chance, Scat?
>
>
If you had any research skills at all Tarver you would quite easily find out
how wrong you are and how stupid you look.
Scat???? So when you are wrong you resort to name calling??? Your a real
thinker aren't you mate?
Those who cannot attack the thought instead attack the thinker.

Scet

[Scet]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scet" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
> > Sorry Jim, but it does work.
>
> Sorry Scat, but it does work and is how the J-52, J57 and J-75 engines
were
> instrumented.
>
> What is it you do, little troll?

I said it works Tarver, can't you read?

Scet
>
>

[Jonathan Stone]

In article >,
Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>
>"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>> >
>> >"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> In article >,
>> >> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
>> >> sleeve-valve radial.
>> >>
>> >> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
>> >
>> >That is a lot of sparkplugs.
>>
>> No, its completely true. Read carefully.
>
>I see, but you are misusing the term radial WRT turbojets, as the term
>radial refers to compressor flow. (ie T-33) Yes, I worked on T-33 motors.

The Hercules engine is 14-a cylinder, sleeve-valve radial reciprocator.
Put down the Sterno and read for comprehension. :-/.

[...]

[Scet]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scet" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > No it isn't John and you know it from the discussion we had on this
> subject
> > last time....you were wrong then and you are wrong now.
>
> I am still correct, the only difference is that I proved it in this
thread.
>
> You are making a fool of yourself, Scat.
>
>
The only thing you proved Tarver is that you resort to childish name calling
when you are wrong.

Scet

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Scet" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > <snip>
> > > Sorry Jim, but it does work.
> >
> > Sorry Scat, but it does work and is how the J-52, J57 and J-75 engines
were
> > instrumented.
> >
> > What is it you do, little troll?
>
> I said it works Tarver, can't you read?

Do you get what "total" means yet, little troll?
>
> Scet
> >
> >
>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Scet" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > <snip>
> > > Yep, an averaged TIT signal on a T56.
> >
> > Nope, only an idiot would devide the Total.
> >
> > To devide would only increase the complexity and reduce reliability.
> >
> > Are you a janitor, by any chance, Scat?

> If you had any research skills at all Tarver you would quite easily find
out
> how wrong you are and how stupid you look.

Tell us Scat, how an "average" would be more useful than a "total"

Surely you understand that such foolishness is useful only in reducing:
reliability, simplicity and is a complete departure from the naming
conventions for turbo jet engines.

Surely you understand, Scet, that any idiot can put up a URL.

Perhaps you have a URL, Scet. I am certain that if you are an actual
participant in the aerospace industry, that the competent would be
interested in avoiding your employeer.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> (B2431) wrote:
>
> >>
> >
> >It's OAT. Air speed measured with just pitot and static pressure is
referred to
> >as indicated airspeed, IAS. If you temperature compensate it becomes true
air
> >speed, TAS.
> >
>
> Well, it's been many years but ISTR that there's another step
> here.

Yep, Dan is incompetent again.

> Isn't there such a thing as RAS?

CAS, or computed airspeed.

>, maybe Rectified Air
> Speed?...IAS corrected for temp? (or maybe CAS?). I thought TAS
> was IAS corrected for altitude?

You got it Gord, I knew you would remember.

> Man!...it was something like 27 years since I last stepped down
> that six foot ladder under the tail of an Argus...and about 50
> years since the F/E course where I learned this stuff (so cut me
> some slack guys!).

Dan and you can work out the pressure and temperature compensation.

[Jim Yanik]

(B2431) wrote in
:

> Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> "Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources
> of
> slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a
> basic principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage
> sources."
>
> Just picking a nit here. All thermocouples are bimetallic by
> definition so the term "bimetal thermocouple" is redundant. It's kind
> of like saying "8 am in the morning."
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>

Well,I note you didn't have any argument with the first part of that post.
I apologize for my redundant statement.

BTW,how many of these TCs are paralleled together in one engine?

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik-at-kua.net

[Scet]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scet" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Scet" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > > Yep, an averaged TIT signal on a T56.
> > >
> > > Nope, only an idiot would devide the Total.
> > >
> > > To devide would only increase the complexity and reduce reliability.
> > >
> > > Are you a janitor, by any chance, Scat?
>
> > If you had any research skills at all Tarver you would quite easily find
> out
> > how wrong you are and how stupid you look.
>
> Tell us Scat, how an "average" would be more useful than a "total"
>
> Surely you understand that such foolishness is useful only in reducing:
> reliability, simplicity and is a complete departure from the naming
> conventions for turbo jet engines.
>
> Surely you understand, Scet, that any idiot can put up a URL.
>
> Perhaps you have a URL, Scet. I am certain that if you are an actual
> participant in the aerospace industry, that the competent would be
> interested in avoiding your employeer.

Ok, one more time for our SPECIAL friends.

On T56 engines the thermocouples are
connected in parallel and pick up TIT, the signal is then averaged. They
are averaged due to the non-uniform temperatures that occur at the turbine
inlet due to the short time of spraying fuel from the nozzle, to fuel
ignition, to introducing the hot gasses at high velocity to the turbine
inlet. The hot gases are not completely mixed and so there are some
stratifications of hotter and cooler areas at the turbine inlet. The
temperature averaging function of the parallel thermocouple circuits
compensates for these non-uniform temperatures.

So humour me Tarver, how is it that you are right and EVERYONE else
including Allison is wrong?????
When I said do some research Tarver I didn't just mean on the internet. If
you had half the contacts that you claim to have you'd be able to find out
within 10 minutes that you are wrong, but that's not what you want is it
Tarver?

You are the only troll around here, the only fact you have established is
that you are an imbicile and are unable to be educated. You have a learning
disability don't you Tarver? I am amazed by the fact that you try to have
some semblance of credibility by stating engineering details and when proven
wrong resort to name calling...I mean Scat????....there is no evidence
provided by you to back up your claims and if anyone else provides a link
you have the notion that people are going to go out of their way and
actually create a website to prove you wrong???? How bizarre is that????
What's going on with that twisted thought process?? That's just not
normal.....you have serious issues that need to be addressed.

Scet

>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...

> On T56 engines the thermocouples are
> connected in parallel and pick up TIT, the signal is then averaged.

Nope, the signals are sent to a totalizer and totaled; similar to every
other turbo jet engine. A devide circuit serves absolutely no purpose in
the processing of TIT data.

So, Scet, who pays you to be this incompetent?

[Scet]

"Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
...
> (B2431) wrote in
> :
>
> > Jim Yanik wrote:
> >
> > "Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources
> > of
> > slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a
> > basic principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage
> > sources."
> >
> > Just picking a nit here. All thermocouples are bimetallic by
> > definition so the term "bimetal thermocouple" is redundant. It's kind
> > of like saying "8 am in the morning."
> >
> > Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >
>
> Well,I note you didn't have any argument with the first part of that post.
> I apologize for my redundant statement.
>
> BTW,how many of these TCs are paralleled together in one engine?
>
> --
> Jim Yanik
> jyanik-at-kua.net

Jim, why don't you visit some of the links provided? Try this one
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/c-130-bar.htm

There is a lot more info out their........or are you trying to be mates with
Tarver?

Scet

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Yanik" > wrote in message
> ...

> There is a lot more info out their........or are you trying to be mates
with
> Tarver?

Jim is not trying to be mates with me, Scet. It is only that you are being
an idiot.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...

> Wrong John, average on a T56

Are you narrowing your completely wrong statements about thermocouples down
to one engine now, Scet?

I suppose you do need to make some mad attempt to save some face. :)

Let us try again:

A URL can be made by anyone and has no guarantee of accuracy of any kind.

[B2431]

>From: Jim Yanik
>Date: 1/22/2004 5:11 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(B2431) wrote in
:
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>> "Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources
>> of
>> slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a
>> basic principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage
>> sources."
>>
>> Just picking a nit here. All thermocouples are bimetallic by
>> definition so the term "bimetal thermocouple" is redundant. It's kind
>> of like saying "8 am in the morning."
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>
>Well,I note you didn't have any argument with the first part of that post.
>I apologize for my redundant statement.
>
>BTW,how many of these TCs are paralleled together in one engine?
>
>--
>Jim Yanik
>jyanik-at-kua.net
>
I think that depends on the engine. To be honest I no longer recall the number
as it never seemed important to me at the time.

I do know taver gets his jollies arguing and name calling. I do know the
systems I have worked on including TIT, EGT, EPR, IAS, TAS etc.

I know what it's like climbing up the exhaust pipe of an F-4E to connect the
jetcal tester to the EGT probes. I do know what a heat rise test does. I do
know when a thermocouple fails the indicator still reads since the
thermocouples are in parallel. I do know you can see each thermocouple has one
white wire and one green wire attached. The green and white colours are for
chromal-alumel systems.

Anyone who has been following what I have said in this newsgroup and who has
similar experiences can tell you I know pitot-static, engine etc instruments.

I do know if you do a google search on tarver in this and other NGs you will
find some rather outrageous statements and claims. If you confront him on these
and ask for proof you are subjected to personal and sometimes vulgar attacks
instead of independant citations that might back him up.

I choose not to debate him since he is obviously arguing for argument's sake.

BTW, I do not claim to be an expert on thermocouple systems, but I have worked
on recips and trubine engine systems.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[[email protected]]

Jim Yanik > wrote:

(B2431) wrote in
:
>
>> Jim Yanik wrote:
>>
>> "Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources
>> of
>> slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a
>> basic principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage
>> sources."
>>
Yes Jim, what you say is true but it's 'allowed' in this (and
other) cases because the voltage output, although in the
millivolt range, is 'soft'. so the current is extremely low, they
merely 'average' themselves.

You certainly couldn't parallel two different voltage sources IF
they were 'hard' because huge currents would flow. So on a T-56
engine they do indeed parallel many thermocouples. (I forget how
many now, but there's a bunch) Half are used for the FCU and half
for the Temperature Datum System.
--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Yanik > wrote:

>
> You certainly couldn't parallel two different voltage sources IF
> they were 'hard' because huge currents would flow. So on a T-56
> engine they do indeed parallel many thermocouples. (I forget how
> many now, but there's a bunch) Half are used for the FCU and half
> for the Temperature Datum System.

Did you know that the major failure mode for a theromocouple is a short?

Consider, Gord, that making your little friends look less foolish is only
making you look foolish.

Even if you were to make an "average", you would need a "total" first.

[[email protected]]

Jim Yanik > wrote:

>
>I fail to see how the separate thermocouples outputs will be
>"averaged",because any individual TC cannot rise in output,as all the
>others parallelled will prevent any rise in voltage.Or current would flow
>from a higher V to a lower one,just as if you wired batteries of different
>voltages together,you end up with circulating currents until all cells are
>of equal voltage..
>Seems to me that parallelling them is only for the possibility of an
>individual thermocouple to be burned out or open.

Jim, as I mentioned before they do average. If you connected say
flashlight batteries of slightly different voltages in parallel
then quite high currents would flow because their internal
resistance is low but thermocouples have comparatively high
resistance therefore limiting the current that will flow.

Picture a slightly high voltage TC in parallel with a slightly
lower voltage TC. The high one will "pull" the voltage up
slightly. Now add another of the same voltage as the high voltage
one. This one will "pull" the voltage just slightly higher again
now add a lower voltage one, the voltage will drop slightly, as
this one pulls it down. The current BETWEEN these TC won't be
very much because the resistance is comparatively high...see?

Remember that you're right about high current flowing IF the
supplies have different voltages AND are HARD supplies (they have
low internal resistance)

An example of a very hard supply is a 'regulated power supply',
you cannot 'pull' them at all, large currents will flow and fuses
will pop. They have very low internal resistance.
--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...

Looks like another peice of equipment Dan is incompetent to operate has been
found.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Yanik > wrote:
>
> >
> >I fail to see how the separate thermocouples outputs will be
> >"averaged",because any individual TC cannot rise in output,as all the
> >others parallelled will prevent any rise in voltage.Or current would flow
> >from a higher V to a lower one,just as if you wired batteries of
different
> >voltages together,you end up with circulating currents until all cells
are
> >of equal voltage..
> >Seems to me that parallelling them is only for the possibility of an
> >individual thermocouple to be burned out or open.
>
> Jim, as I mentioned before they do average. If you connected say
> flashlight batteries of slightly different voltages in parallel
> then quite high currents would flow because their internal
> resistance is low but thermocouples have comparatively high
> resistance therefore limiting the current that will flow.

Which makes a higher voltage.

Quit while you are ahead, Gord, Danno has been hitting the bong.

[[email protected]]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote:

>
>"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>>
>> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
>> sleeve-valve radial.
>>
>> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
>
>That is a lot of sparkplugs.
>
Hell John, not near as many as in a C-124...there's 216 in
that!...
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

(Jonathan Stone) wrote:

>In article >,
>Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>>
>>"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
...
>>> In article >,
>>> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>>>
>>> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
>>> sleeve-valve radial.
>>>
>>> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
>>
>>That is a lot of sparkplugs.
>
>No, its completely true. Read carefully.

Quite correct...
--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >,
> >> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
> >>
> >> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
> >> sleeve-valve radial.
> >>
> >> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
> >
> >That is a lot of sparkplugs.
> >
> Hell John, not near as many as in a C-124...there's 216 in
> that!...

My father spent the first few years of WWII changing spark plugs.

[Ralph Nesbitt]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Scet" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > <snip>
> > > Sorry Jim, but it does work.
> >
> > Sorry Scat, but it does work and is how the J-52, J57 and J-75 engines
> were
> > instrumented.
> >
> > What is it you do, little troll?
>
> I said it works Tarver, can't you read?
>
> Scet
> >
Hopefully all can agree, "Tarver/Splappy" is a "Piece of Work At Best".
Ralph Nesbitt
Professional FD/CFR/ARFF Type

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/22/2004 9:33 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> In article >,
>> >> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
>> >> sleeve-valve radial.
>> >>
>> >> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
>> >
>> >That is a lot of sparkplugs.
>> >
>> Hell John, not near as many as in a C-124...there's 216 in
>> that!...
>
>My father spent the first few years of WWII changing spark plugs.
>
Was that before or after he was in the 101st in Bastogne?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Jim Knoyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> > >Date: 1/22/2004 9:30 AM Central Standard Time
>
> <snip>
> > >> Tarver, at the risk of a barrage of filth from you, can you provide a
> web site
> > >> other than yours that shows TIT or EGT thermocouples in series?
> > >
> > >You are too confused for me to even respond, Dan.
> > >
> >
> > Tarver, I didn't think you could. You simply aren't man enough to say "I
> can't
> > because there is no such thing."
>
> Why should I deal with anymore of your senile meanderings?
>
> Your favorite archive troll is in ashes and you are a certified idiot,
Dan.
>
>
Dream on, Splaps.

[Scet]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Scet" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Wrong John, average on a T56
>
> Are you narrowing your completely wrong statements about thermocouples
down
> to one engine now, Scet?
>
> I suppose you do need to make some mad attempt to save some face. :)
>
> Let us try again:
>
> A URL can be made by anyone and has no guarantee of accuracy of any kind.
>
>
That's because T56 engines are fitted to hercs..........

Scet

[John R Weiss]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote...
> A URL can be made by anyone and has no guarantee of accuracy of any kind.

I guess a URL is just like one of Tarver's claims, then!

[Tarver Engineering]

"Scet" > wrote in message
...

> That's because T56 engines are fitted to hercs..........

So?

None of that changes your ignorant rants in this thread.

Baker was here posting about there being no E4A and posting the military
URL, but he was found out to be wrong, when one of the crew members listed
the E4A serial numbers.

It is easier for you to think of "average" than the engine term "total", but
the exact same data is in both forms. Actually deviding is a bad idea.

[Tarver Engineering]

"John R Weiss" > wrote in message
news:q%cQb.106228$5V2.470908@attbi_s53...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote...
> > A URL can be made by anyone and has no guarantee of accuracy of any
kind.
>
> I guess a URL is just like one of Tarver's claims, then!

I saw you were making a fool of yourself at rai, Weiss. Stick a little
closer to ram and your incompetence as a civil airplane operator won't show.

[[email protected]]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote:

>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> Jim Yanik > wrote:
>
>>
>> You certainly couldn't parallel two different voltage sources IF
>> they were 'hard' because huge currents would flow. So on a T-56
>> engine they do indeed parallel many thermocouples. (I forget how
>> many now, but there's a bunch) Half are used for the FCU and half
>> for the Temperature Datum System.
>
>Did you know that the major failure mode for a theromocouple is a short?
>
Yes John... :)

>Consider, Gord, that making your little friends look less foolish is only
>making you look foolish.
>
Yes John... :)

>Even if you were to make an "average", you would need a "total" first.
>

Yes John... :)


Yes John.. (oops)
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote:

>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> Jim Yanik > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >I fail to see how the separate thermocouples outputs will be
>> >"averaged",because any individual TC cannot rise in output,as all the
>> >others parallelled will prevent any rise in voltage.Or current would flow
>> >from a higher V to a lower one,just as if you wired batteries of
>different
>> >voltages together,you end up with circulating currents until all cells
>are
>> >of equal voltage..
>> >Seems to me that parallelling them is only for the possibility of an
>> >individual thermocouple to be burned out or open.
>>
>> Jim, as I mentioned before they do average. If you connected say
>> flashlight batteries of slightly different voltages in parallel
>> then quite high currents would flow because their internal
>> resistance is low but thermocouples have comparatively high
>> resistance therefore limiting the current that will flow.
>
>Which makes a higher voltage.
>
>Quit while you are ahead, Gord, Danno has been hitting the bong.
>

Yes John... :)

--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Jim Yanik > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> You certainly couldn't parallel two different voltage sources IF
> >> they were 'hard' because huge currents would flow. So on a T-56
> >> engine they do indeed parallel many thermocouples. (I forget how
> >> many now, but there's a bunch) Half are used for the FCU and half
> >> for the Temperature Datum System.
> >
> >Did you know that the major failure mode for a theromocouple is a short?
> >
> Yes John... :)
>
> >Consider, Gord, that making your little friends look less foolish is only
> >making you look foolish.
> >
> Yes John... :)
>
> >Even if you were to make an "average", you would need a "total" first.
> >
>
> Yes John... :)
>
>
> Yes John.. (oops)

OK then. :)

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 1/22/2004 9:33 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in
message
> >> ...
> >> >> In article >,
> >> >> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
> >> >> sleeve-valve radial.
> >> >>
> >> >> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
> >> >
> >> >That is a lot of sparkplugs.
> >> >
> >> Hell John, not near as many as in a C-124...there's 216 in
> >> that!...
> >
> >My father spent the first few years of WWII changing spark plugs.
> >
> Was that before or after he was in the 101st in Bastogne?

He was bored changing spark plugs, so he volenteered for the 101st.

He wasn't bored anymore.

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/23/2004 12:51 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 1/22/2004 9:33 PM Central Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in
>message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> In article >,
>> >> >> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a 14-cylinder
>> >> >> sleeve-valve radial.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
>> >> >
>> >> >That is a lot of sparkplugs.
>> >> >
>> >> Hell John, not near as many as in a C-124...there's 216 in
>> >> that!...
>> >
>> >My father spent the first few years of WWII changing spark plugs.
>> >
>> Was that before or after he was in the 101st in Bastogne?
>
>He was bored changing spark plugs, so he volenteered for the 101st.
>
>He wasn't bored anymore.
>

Yeah, yeah, sure.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 1/23/2004 12:51 PM Central Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"B2431" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >Date: 1/22/2004 9:33 PM Central Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Jonathan Stone" > wrote in
> >message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> In article >,
> >> >> >> Tarver Engineering > wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> No, no, no. The Hercules engine is (as is well-known) a
14-cylinder
> >> >> >> sleeve-valve radial.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> (Lets see what Tarver makes of that.)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >That is a lot of sparkplugs.
> >> >> >
> >> >> Hell John, not near as many as in a C-124...there's 216 in
> >> >> that!...
> >> >
> >> >My father spent the first few years of WWII changing spark plugs.
> >> >
> >> Was that before or after he was in the 101st in Bastogne?
> >
> >He was bored changing spark plugs, so he volenteered for the 101st.
> >
> >He wasn't bored anymore.
> >
>
> Yeah, yeah, sure.

If I were you, I'd eat the piece, Dan.

[Scet]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> Jim Yanik > wrote:
>
> (B2431) wrote in
> :
> >
> >> Jim Yanik wrote:
> >>
> >> "Well,then it violates basic physics.If you have two voltage sources
> >> of
> >> slightly different voltages,currents DO flow between them.That's a
> >> basic principle. And bimetal TCs are simply millivolt voltage
> >> sources."
> >>
> Yes Jim, what you say is true but it's 'allowed' in this (and
> other) cases because the voltage output, although in the
> millivolt range, is 'soft'. so the current is extremely low, they
> merely 'average' themselves.
>
> You certainly couldn't parallel two different voltage sources IF
> they were 'hard' because huge currents would flow. So on a T-56
> engine they do indeed parallel many thermocouples. (I forget how
> many now, but there's a bunch) Half are used for the FCU and half
> for the Temperature Datum System.
> --
>
> -Gord.

18 thermocouples, 3 in each can, each thermocouple has 4 wires connected to
it, 2 white, 2 green. 2 wires send signals to the TD amp, the other 2 to the
TIT gauge in the flight station via a terminal block.

Scet

[[email protected]]

"Scet" > wrote:

>18 thermocouples, 3 in each can, each thermocouple has 4 wires connected to
>it, 2 white, 2 green. 2 wires send signals to the TD amp, the other 2 to the
>TIT gauge in the flight station via a terminal block.
>
>Scet
>
Oops...sorry...half to the TD amp, half to the TIT gauge (not the
FCU) my bad.
--

-Gord.