Deferrals: MEL (Minimum Equipment List) and POH For Cessna 172N '78

[Sushidot]

Hello-

I am a student pilot getting studying for my checkride. One question
that I want to get right is the issue mentioned in the subject header
above.

My instructor said that because we do not have a MEL, we use the POH
and anything that is considered Optional but is defective can be
deferred and the flight could be made. There are three ohter
designations in the Equipment list, "A" for additional, "S" for
substitiuded and "R" for required. I would think that the "A" stuff
probably could be deffered as well (ie AC equipment, autopilot, etc).

I am a bit unclear and wanted some clarification on this from the
group. Does this mean to refer to the equip list in the POH and
anything with the letter "O" or optional that is defective can be
deferred and the flight can be continued? Or can the stuff "A" and "O"
be deferred.

Thanks
SD.

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
> wrote:

>Hello-
>
>I am a student pilot getting studying for my checkride. One question
>that I want to get right is the issue mentioned in the subject header
>above.
>
>My instructor said that because we do not have a MEL, we use the POH
>and anything that is considered Optional but is defective can be
>deferred and the flight could be made. There are three ohter
>designations in the Equipment list, "A" for additional, "S" for
>substitiuded and "R" for required. I would think that the "A" stuff
>probably could be deffered as well (ie AC equipment, autopilot, etc).
>
>I am a bit unclear and wanted some clarification on this from the
>group. Does this mean to refer to the equip list in the POH and
>anything with the letter "O" or optional that is defective can be
>deferred and the flight can be continued? Or can the stuff "A" and "O"
>be deferred.

Anything that is not R in the equipment list or required by the rules
the flight will be conducted under (day/VFR, night/IFR, whatever) can
be dispatched when broken in the absense of a KOEL (Kind of Operation
Equipment List) or MEL (FAA approved Minimum Equipment List).

For example the co-pilot seat is S (Standard), pilot seat is R
(Required), so as long as nobody is in the seat (or it's removed from
the aircraft) the copilot seat is not needed.

Don't forget about marking the defective equipment as such,
deactivating or removing it from the aircraft, and making an
appropriate mainteance log entry (see 91.213(3)). Weight and ballance
may change if you are removing the defective part.

[Sushidot]

On Mar 23, 2:31 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >Hello-
>
> >I am a student pilot getting studying for my checkride. One question
> >that I want to get right is the issue mentioned in the subject header
> >above.
>
> >My instructor said that because we do not have a MEL, we use the POH
> >and anything that is considered Optional but is defective can be
> >deferred and the flight could be made. There are three ohter
> >designations in the Equipment list, "A" for additional, "S" for
> >substitiuded and "R" for required. I would think that the "A" stuff
> >probably could be deffered as well (ie AC equipment, autopilot, etc).
>
> >I am a bit unclear and wanted some clarification on this from the
> >group. Does this mean to refer to the equip list in the POH and
> >anything with the letter "O" or optional that is defective can be
> >deferred and the flight can be continued? Or can the stuff "A" and "O"
> >be deferred.
>
> Anything that is not R in the equipment list or required by the rules
> the flight will be conducted under (day/VFR, night/IFR, whatever) can
> be dispatched when broken in the absense of a KOEL (Kind of Operation
> Equipment List) or MEL (FAA approved Minimum Equipment List).
>
> For example the co-pilot seat is S (Standard), pilot seat is R
> (Required), so as long as nobody is in the seat (or it's removed from
> the aircraft) the copilot seat is not needed.
>
> Don't forget about marking the defective equipment as such,
> deactivating or removing it from the aircraft, and making an
> appropriate mainteance log entry (see 91.213(3)). Weight and ballance
> may change if you are removing the defective part.

Thank you for the Reply...

This may be a dumb question, but what exactly is a KOEL? I came
across this term twice and sorta assume its the equipment list in the
POH...is that true or is it an additional list issued by the
manufacturer ?

Thanks
SD

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
> wrote:

>On Mar 23, 2:31 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
>> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
>>
>>
>>
>> > wrote:
>> >Hello-
>>
>> >I am a student pilot getting studying for my checkride. One question
>> >that I want to get right is the issue mentioned in the subject header
>> >above.
>>
>> >My instructor said that because we do not have a MEL, we use the POH
>> >and anything that is considered Optional but is defective can be
>> >deferred and the flight could be made. There are three ohter
>> >designations in the Equipment list, "A" for additional, "S" for
>> >substitiuded and "R" for required. I would think that the "A" stuff
>> >probably could be deffered as well (ie AC equipment, autopilot, etc).
>>
>> >I am a bit unclear and wanted some clarification on this from the
>> >group. Does this mean to refer to the equip list in the POH and
>> >anything with the letter "O" or optional that is defective can be
>> >deferred and the flight can be continued? Or can the stuff "A" and "O"
>> >be deferred.
>>
>> Anything that is not R in the equipment list or required by the rules
>> the flight will be conducted under (day/VFR, night/IFR, whatever) can
>> be dispatched when broken in the absense of a KOEL (Kind of Operation
>> Equipment List) or MEL (FAA approved Minimum Equipment List).
>>
>> For example the co-pilot seat is S (Standard), pilot seat is R
>> (Required), so as long as nobody is in the seat (or it's removed from
>> the aircraft) the copilot seat is not needed.
>>
>> Don't forget about marking the defective equipment as such,
>> deactivating or removing it from the aircraft, and making an
>> appropriate mainteance log entry (see 91.213(3)). Weight and ballance
>> may change if you are removing the defective part.
>
>Thank you for the Reply...
>
>This may be a dumb question, but what exactly is a KOEL? I came
>across this term twice and sorta assume its the equipment list in the
>POH...is that true or is it an additional list issued by the
>manufacturer ?

A KOEL (Kind of Operation Equipment List) is an additional list in the
POH's Limitations section which shows equipment required per flight
rules in a tabular form. I've seen it in the new G1000 Cessna POHs,
as well as the Malibu and Meridian, I'm sure there are others. With
no MEL you go there first and if the equipment isn't listed there then
you go to the equipment list. For exaple, the Malibu has two vaccum
pumps, per the KOEL you can dispatch for VFR/IFR with one operational,
but you need both operational for flight into icing (since the pumps
also operate the de-ice boots).

[Sushidot]

On Mar 24, 7:01 am, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 21:21:21 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Mar 23, 2:31 pm, Peter Clark
> > wrote:
> >> On Sun, 23 Mar 2008 13:29:53 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
>
> >> > wrote:
> >> >Hello-
>
> >> >I am a student pilot getting studying for my checkride. One question
> >> >that I want to get right is the issue mentioned in the subject header
> >> >above.
>
> >> >My instructor said that because we do not have a MEL, we use the POH
> >> >and anything that is considered Optional but is defective can be
> >> >deferred and the flight could be made. There are three ohter
> >> >designations in the Equipment list, "A" for additional, "S" for
> >> >substitiuded and "R" for required. I would think that the "A" stuff
> >> >probably could be deffered as well (ie AC equipment, autopilot, etc).
>
> >> >I am a bit unclear and wanted some clarification on this from the
> >> >group. Does this mean to refer to the equip list in the POH and
> >> >anything with the letter "O" or optional that is defective can be
> >> >deferred and the flight can be continued? Or can the stuff "A" and "O"
> >> >be deferred.
>
> >> Anything that is not R in the equipment list or required by the rules
> >> the flight will be conducted under (day/VFR, night/IFR, whatever) can
> >> be dispatched when broken in the absense of a KOEL (Kind of Operation
> >> Equipment List) or MEL (FAA approved Minimum Equipment List).
>
> >> For example the co-pilot seat is S (Standard), pilot seat is R
> >> (Required), so as long as nobody is in the seat (or it's removed from
> >> the aircraft) the copilot seat is not needed.
>
> >> Don't forget about marking the defective equipment as such,
> >> deactivating or removing it from the aircraft, and making an
> >> appropriate mainteance log entry (see 91.213(3)). Weight and ballance
> >> may change if you are removing the defective part.
>
> >Thank you for the Reply...
>
> >This may be a dumb question, but what exactly is a KOEL? I came
> >across this term twice and sorta assume its the equipment list in the
> >POH...is that true or is it an additional list issued by the
> >manufacturer ?
>
> A KOEL (Kind of Operation Equipment List) is an additional list in the
> POH's Limitations section which shows equipment required per flight
> rules in a tabular form. I've seen it in the new G1000 Cessna POHs,
> as well as the Malibu and Meridian, I'm sure there are others. With
> no MEL you go there first and if the equipment isn't listed there then
> you go to the equipment list. For exaple, the Malibu has two vaccum
> pumps, per the KOEL you can dispatch for VFR/IFR with one operational,
> but you need both operational for flight into icing (since the pumps
> also operate the de-ice boots).

Peter-

Thank you. I will check the POH for the KOEL. Here is another
question...what does the H2AD mean for the Lycomming o-320-h2ad as
well as the "o" in the front of the 320?
Thanks
JCL

[Peter Clark]

On 24 Mar 2008 20:05:49 GMT, Robert Moore >
wrote:

>Sushidot > wrote
>>..what does the H2AD mean for the Lycomming o-320-h2ad as
>> well as the "o" in the front of the 320?
>
>320 is the size (cu.in.) of the engine, h2ad indicates model differences,
>and "O" indicates that the cylinders are "opposed" rather than "inline" or
>"radial" or "Vee".
>
>The "H" engine was one of Lycoming's worst products, bad camshaft material.
>Numerous failures early in it's life with the resulant FAA Airworthiness
>Directive requiring a special oil additive. Pretty much a non-issue now
>since most major oils have this additive as standard.
>
>I've got about 2,000 hours with an "H" engine without a single burp.

Yea, the stuff after the size tells mechanics about engine and
preinstalled accessory oprions (roller tappets, multiple vaccum pumps,
alternators, etc), most of it is pretty esoteric for the guy pushing
the throttle. You can also run into IO- engines, they have fuel
injection instead of carbs.

Good luck on the test!

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-03-24, Robert Moore > wrote:
> The "H" engine was one of Lycoming's worst products, bad camshaft material.
> Numerous failures early in it's life with the resulant FAA Airworthiness
> Directive requiring a special oil additive. Pretty much a non-issue now
> since most major oils have this additive as standard.

Some wags said the -H2AD was Lycoming's way of telling pilots it'd have lots
of ADs.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC (ordered 17 March, delivery 2 June)

[[email protected]]

On Mar 23, 2:29 pm, Sushidot > wrote:
> Hello-
>
> I am a student pilot getting studying for my checkride. One question
> that I want to get right is the issue mentioned in the subject header
> above.
>
> My instructor said that because we do not have a MEL, we use the POH
> and anything that is considered Optional but is defective can be
> deferred and the flight could be made. There are three ohter
> designations in the Equipment list, "A" for additional, "S" for
> substitiuded and "R" for required. I would think that the "A" stuff
> probably could be deffered as well (ie AC equipment, autopilot, etc).
>
> I am a bit unclear and wanted some clarification on this from the
> group. Does this mean to refer to the equip list in the POH and
> anything with the letter "O" or optional that is defective can be
> deferred and the flight can be continued? Or can the stuff "A" and "O"
> be deferred.
>
> Thanks
> SD.

Look for the equipment list with the weight and
balance stuff.

Dan

[[email protected]]

On Mar 24, 2:33 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:

> Yea, the stuff after the size tells mechanics about engine and
> preinstalled accessory oprions (roller tappets, multiple vaccum pumps,
> alternators, etc), most of it is pretty esoteric for the guy pushing
> the throttle. You can also run into IO- engines, they have fuel
> injection instead of carbs.

O means naturally aspirated, carbureted, opposed, direct drive. IO
means injected opposed direct drive. TSIO means turbocharged injected
opposed direct drive. GTSIO means geared propeller output,
turbocharged, supercharged, injected opposed. GO means geared opposed.
TIGO means turbo'd, injected, geared opposed. Various other
combinations are out there.
Most of the trainers we know are O or IO. A GO engine is rare
now, but was used on the Cessna 175 (GO-300) and the Helio Courier
(GO-480). TIGO and GTSIO engines are found on some Aero Commanders
(680 model?) and the Cessna 421 and the Navajo.
The suffix (like E2D) has lots of meanings, from the engine
mounting arrangement to the accessory case (where things like magnetos
and vacuum pumps and fuel pumps and oil filters and alternators and
starters are mounted), to cylinder base types and so on. Roller cams
are not figured into any of this stuff with the Lycoming; it's a
relatively new development that changes the engine part number only,
not its O- designation, so that the TCDS isn't violated when one is
installed in an airplane that didn't have roller tappets previously.
Dan

[Marty Shapiro]

Peter Clark > wrote in
:

> On 24 Mar 2008 20:05:49 GMT, Robert Moore >
> wrote:
>
>>Sushidot > wrote
>>>..what does the H2AD mean for the Lycomming o-320-h2ad as
>>> well as the "o" in the front of the 320?
>>
>>320 is the size (cu.in.) of the engine, h2ad indicates model
>>differences, and "O" indicates that the cylinders are "opposed" rather
>>than "inline" or "radial" or "Vee".
>>
>>The "H" engine was one of Lycoming's worst products, bad camshaft
>>material. Numerous failures early in it's life with the resulant FAA
>>Airworthiness Directive requiring a special oil additive. Pretty much
>>a non-issue now since most major oils have this additive as standard.
>>
>>I've got about 2,000 hours with an "H" engine without a single burp.
>
> Yea, the stuff after the size tells mechanics about engine and
> preinstalled accessory oprions (roller tappets, multiple vaccum pumps,
> alternators, etc), most of it is pretty esoteric for the guy pushing
> the throttle. You can also run into IO- engines, they have fuel
> injection instead of carbs.
>
> Good luck on the test!

Lycoming has a list of all their reciprocating engine prefixes & suffixes
in a pdf file on their web pages. You can find it at
http://lycoming.com/support/tips-advice/key-reprints/index.jsp
and then select "Maintenance". The current version has this list on page
28.

This is an excerpt from the information provided by Lycoming.

Format: PREFIX DISPLACEMENT SUFFIX

Prefix:

L = Left-hand Rotation Crankshaft
T = Turbocharged (exhaust gas driven)
I = Fuel Injected
G = Geared (reduction gear)
S = Supercharged (mechanical)
V = Vertical Helicopter
H = Horizontal Helicopter
A = Aerobatic
AE = Aerobatic Engine
O = Opposed Cylinders

Displacement: Cubic inches

Note — A displacement ending in “1” indicates a specific engine model
which incorporates integral accessory drive.

SUFFIX:

A or AA = Power Section & Rating
3 = Nose Section
B = Accessory Section
6 = Counterweight Application
D = Dual Magneto
(Subsequent changes to models are reflected in the suffix.)

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Sushidot]

On Mar 24, 1:33 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On 24 Mar 2008 20:05:49 GMT, Robert Moore >
> wrote:
>
> >Sushidot > wrote
> >>..what does the H2AD mean for the Lycomming o-320-h2ad as
> >> well as the "o" in the front of the 320?
>
> >320 is the size (cu.in.) of the engine, h2ad indicates model differences,
> >and "O" indicates that the cylinders are "opposed" rather than "inline" or
> >"radial" or "Vee".
>
> >The "H" engine was one of Lycoming's worst products, bad camshaft material.
> >Numerous failures early in it's life with the resulant FAA Airworthiness
> >Directive requiring a special oil additive. Pretty much a non-issue now
> >since most major oils have this additive as standard.
>
> >I've got about 2,000 hours with an "H" engine without a single burp.
>
> Yea, the stuff after the size tells mechanics about engine and
> preinstalled accessory oprions (roller tappets, multiple vaccum pumps,
> alternators, etc), most of it is pretty esoteric for the guy pushing
> the throttle. You can also run into IO- engines, they have fuel
> injection instead of carbs.
>
> Good luck on the test!

Thanks for all the advice

Here is another questions
1. On the KOEL in my POH, all that was really there was Placard
information...about that the placards were necessary and need to be
displayed. Is there something I am missing here in regards to
deferrals? One placard had something about Day-Night-VFR-IFR...and
info about maneuvers and load limits...but nothing about equipment
except further in the equipment list in the WB sec.

Thanks
JCL

[Peter Clark]

On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:50:51 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
> wrote:

>On Mar 24, 1:33 pm, Peter Clark
> wrote:
>> On 24 Mar 2008 20:05:49 GMT, Robert Moore >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Sushidot > wrote
>> >>..what does the H2AD mean for the Lycomming o-320-h2ad as
>> >> well as the "o" in the front of the 320?
>>
>> >320 is the size (cu.in.) of the engine, h2ad indicates model differences,
>> >and "O" indicates that the cylinders are "opposed" rather than "inline" or
>> >"radial" or "Vee".
>>
>> >The "H" engine was one of Lycoming's worst products, bad camshaft material.
>> >Numerous failures early in it's life with the resulant FAA Airworthiness
>> >Directive requiring a special oil additive. Pretty much a non-issue now
>> >since most major oils have this additive as standard.
>>
>> >I've got about 2,000 hours with an "H" engine without a single burp.
>>
>> Yea, the stuff after the size tells mechanics about engine and
>> preinstalled accessory oprions (roller tappets, multiple vaccum pumps,
>> alternators, etc), most of it is pretty esoteric for the guy pushing
>> the throttle. You can also run into IO- engines, they have fuel
>> injection instead of carbs.
>>
>> Good luck on the test!
>
>Thanks for all the advice
>
>Here is another questions
>1. On the KOEL in my POH, all that was really there was Placard
>information...about that the placards were necessary and need to be
>displayed. Is there something I am missing here in regards to
>deferrals? One placard had something about Day-Night-VFR-IFR...and
>info about maneuvers and load limits...but nothing about equipment
>except further in the equipment list in the WB sec.

Required placards are also shown in the limitations section, a KOEL is
quite distinct and stands out from the rest of the stuff that you will
also find in that section. I forget what you're flying now, but if
it's not a G1000 model you likely don't have one so I wouldn't worry
about it for now. If you have access to a G1000 aircraft look at it's
POH and you'll see what I mean.

[Sushidot]

On Mar 26, 3:55 am, Peter Clark
> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Mar 2008 17:50:51 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
>
>
>
> > wrote:
> >On Mar 24, 1:33 pm, Peter Clark
> > wrote:
> >> On 24 Mar 2008 20:05:49 GMT, Robert Moore >
> >> wrote:
>
> >> >Sushidot > wrote
> >> >>..what does the H2AD mean for the Lycomming o-320-h2ad as
> >> >> well as the "o" in the front of the 320?
>
> >> >320 is the size (cu.in.) of the engine, h2ad indicates model differences,
> >> >and "O" indicates that the cylinders are "opposed" rather than "inline" or
> >> >"radial" or "Vee".
>
> >> >The "H" engine was one of Lycoming's worst products, bad camshaft material.
> >> >Numerous failures early in it's life with the resulant FAA Airworthiness
> >> >Directive requiring a special oil additive. Pretty much a non-issue now
> >> >since most major oils have this additive as standard.
>
> >> >I've got about 2,000 hours with an "H" engine without a single burp.
>
> >> Yea, the stuff after the size tells mechanics about engine and
> >> preinstalled accessory oprions (roller tappets, multiple vaccum pumps,
> >> alternators, etc), most of it is pretty esoteric for the guy pushing
> >> the throttle. You can also run into IO- engines, they have fuel
> >> injection instead of carbs.
>
> >> Good luck on the test!
>
> >Thanks for all the advice
>
> >Here is another questions
> >1. On the KOEL in my POH, all that was really there was Placard
> >information...about that the placards were necessary and need to be
> >displayed. Is there something I am missing here in regards to
> >deferrals? One placard had something about Day-Night-VFR-IFR...and
> >info about maneuvers and load limits...but nothing about equipment
> >except further in the equipment list in the WB sec.
>
> Required placards are also shown in the limitations section, a KOEL is
> quite distinct and stands out from the rest of the stuff that you will
> also find in that section. I forget what you're flying now, but if
> it's not a G1000 model you likely don't have one so I wouldn't worry
> about it for now. If you have access to a G1000 aircraft look at it's
> POH and you'll see what I mean.

Hey Peter-

Its a 1978 C172N. I wish it was a G1000. Is there one here? I am
not finding it...only the equipment list...though like I said, I did
see something about placards.

Also...I have something confusing regarding weather perhaps you might
be able to help me or someone on this site...
When looking at weather charts, 4 panel depictions...do you have any
general advice on how to interpret those and explain that to the
DPE...i. keep getting confused by one concept...weather at high
pressure systems and fronts...my understanding is that high pressure
systems the weather would be cooler weather but i read somewhere else
where high temps are associated with high pressure. Its sorta a
general question...but is there any suggestions you or others might
have generally in interpretating the maps or what weather is
associated with what fronts, troughs, etc.?

Thanks
SD

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 13:22:27 -0700 (PDT), Sushidot
> wrote:


>
>Hey Peter-
>
>Its a 1978 C172N. I wish it was a G1000. Is there one here? I am
>not finding it...only the equipment list...though like I said, I did
>see something about placards.

I would not expect a KOEL for any Cessna 172 prior to the G1000 R/S
models (2005? and newer). Placards and other stuff listed in the
limitations section would be there in addition to the KOEL, if one is
there.

>Also...I have something confusing regarding weather perhaps you might
>be able to help me or someone on this site...
>When looking at weather charts, 4 panel depictions...do you have any
>general advice on how to interpret those and explain that to the
>DPE...i. keep getting confused by one concept...weather at high
>pressure systems and fronts...my understanding is that high pressure
>systems the weather would be cooler weather but i read somewhere else
>where high temps are associated with high pressure. Its sorta a
>general question...but is there any suggestions you or others might
>have generally in interpretating the maps or what weather is
>associated with what fronts, troughs, etc.?

As Dogbert once said, "One day I'll bring in a doctor and a flashlight
and show you where weather forecasts come from...." ;)

I'll defer to the CFI/CFII's for the weather chart stuff. There's a
bunch of real knowledgable guys hanging around and can speak to that
stuff much better than I. I know enough to get around, but without
being together at a table somewhere I wouldn't try and explain them to
anyone.