Most airplanes one loose wire and you have no electrical power!

[[email protected]]

The battery Contactor on MOST GA airplanes is
'powered' ( grounded) by ONE wire!

You GAMBLE your life and you Pax's life in IFR conditions by
way of:

One Battery, One battery Contactor, ONE primary Battery buss wire,
One contactor control wire, a few Ring terminal lugs, One
Master Switch.

When the Battery contactor circuit opens / fails you WILL loose
the alternator because the battery acts as a capacitor to smooth out
DC power fluctuations, spikes, and AC ripple : the alternator
field current will go wild and the overvoltage regulator will cut
out. With out field current you have no Alternator!

In IFR You have HAD IT! NO DC power!

Wonder how many 'good' pilots have been killed in IFR with a total
power outage?? no Radio distress call because of no electrical
power!........ no radios, no lights, no auto pilot, no
transponder, no turn and bank indicator ( Partial panel capability
lost) ......... everyone wonders what happened????

Seconds to live, ....... because of ONE........ get it!!! ONE
common point failure of an essential IFR system!

[Steve Foley]

> wrote in message
...
>
> In IFR You have HAD IT! NO DC power!
>

Holy Crap!! You mean there's RISK in GA?

I guess I'll give up flying and become a USENET troll.

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Wed, 26 Mar 2008 22:30:17 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

>The battery Contactor on MOST GA airplanes is
>'powered' ( grounded) by ONE wire!
>
> You GAMBLE your life and you Pax's life in IFR conditions by
>way of:
>
>One Battery, One battery Contactor, ONE primary Battery buss wire,
>One contactor control wire, a few Ring terminal lugs, One
>Master Switch.
>
>When the Battery contactor circuit opens / fails you WILL loose
>the alternator because the battery acts as a capacitor to smooth out
>DC power fluctuations, spikes, and AC ripple : the alternator
>field current will go wild and the overvoltage regulator will cut
>out. With out field current you have no Alternator!
>
> In IFR You have HAD IT! NO DC power!
>
>Wonder how many 'good' pilots have been killed in IFR with a total
>power outage?? no Radio distress call because of no electrical
>power!........ no radios, no lights, no auto pilot, no
>transponder, no turn and bank indicator ( Partial panel capability
>lost) ......... everyone wonders what happened????
>
>Seconds to live, ....... because of ONE........ get it!!! ONE
>common point failure of an essential IFR system!

the only solution is to fly with another aeroplane. this halves the
odds that it will be your aircraft with the problem.
fly with two other aircraft and the odds drop to a third. and so on.
so the only way to minimise the risk is to fly in tight formation with
lots and lots of other aircraft. 'specially through cloud.

or you could stop being afraid of the dark and learn why we use
magnetos.

and yes I have flown in conditions so dark that I could not see any of
the aircraft structure around me. nothing at all.
I flew on waiting for a full moon to rise.

Stealth Pilot

[Thomas Borchert]

> Wonder how many 'good' pilots have been killed in IFR with a total
> power outage??
>

Have you? If so, tell us!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Michael[_1_]]

On Mar 27, 1:30*am, wrote:
> The battery Contactor on *MOST *GA *airplanes *is
> 'powered' ( grounded) * by ONE wire!

This is true.

> When the Battery *contactor circuit opens / fails *you WILL *loose
> the alternator *because the battery acts as a capacitor to *smooth out
> DC *power fluctuations, spikes, *and * AC ripple : *the alternator
> field current *will go wild and the overvoltage regulator will cut
> out. * With out field current you have no Alternator!

That depends on how the alternator controller works, and what kind of
alternator you have.

For example, many of the later Raytheon/Beech airplanes use a self-
exciting alternator. You can literally start the engine, turn off the
master, and you maintain power to the bus from alternator only. Of
course if you turn off the field, you can't get the alternator back
without battery power. Seen this on the Duchess.

Then there are the generators. They don't need the battery at all,
assuming a decent load on the system and a decent controller. The
Zeftronics systems are like that - lose battery or contactor, and you
maintain generator power.

The stock Piper and Cessna systems - not so nice... If you're going
to fly IFR, choose your system wisely - and understand how it works.

> *In IFR You have HAD IT! * * NO DC power!

Really? Why? Most planes flying IFR these days have a handheld GPS
for backup nav, and have primary (attitude and heading) gyros driven
by vacuum/pressure pumps, which are engine driven. Of course since
the engines have magneto ignition, they'll keep spinning - and driving
the gyros.

The all-electric airplanes have backup power systems, as well they
should, and do not rely on a single bus.

> Seconds to live, *....... because of ONE........ get it!!! ONE
> common point failure of an essential IFR *system!

Um, no - not seconds to live. Even without the handheld GPS for
navigation, you have primary gyros, compass, altimeter, engine power,
and your flashlight (if it's night) - and can probably fly to an area
of VFR or, last ditch, make a letdown over water or flat land. You
probably have hours to live and try to resolve the problem. A
handheld GPS and batteries make a cheap backup and allow you to shoot
most VOR (and all NDB) approaches to better accuracy than the
underlying approach, making the electrical failure no big deal. Now
if you lose the engine as well... But now we're talking two
simultaneous unrelated point failures.

For that matter, why not start with the engine? That's where you
really have the problem, assuming you only have one. And the pistons
are all linked to ONE crankshaft, which is housed in ONE case,
supplied by ONE oil pump, fed through ONE fuel line, etc. Fail any of
those and the engine will stop making power long before you can get it
on the ground in IFR conditions.

There are risks to flying IFR, but the particular risk you mention is
quite manageable and not the death sentence you make it out to be. In
other words - you don't know what you are talking about.

Michael

[The Visitor]

Many, like my seneca III have an emergency avionics bus switch.

Now I am curious and will look around ifr certified aircraft and see
which ones do not have one.




wrote:
> The battery Contactor on MOST GA airplanes is
> 'powered' ( grounded) by ONE wire!
>
> You GAMBLE your life and you Pax's life in IFR conditions by
> way of:
>
> One Battery, One battery Contactor, ONE primary Battery buss wire,
> One contactor control wire, a few Ring terminal lugs, One
> Master Switch.
>
> When the Battery contactor circuit opens / fails you WILL loose
> the alternator because the battery acts as a capacitor to smooth out
> DC power fluctuations, spikes, and AC ripple : the alternator
> field current will go wild and the overvoltage regulator will cut
> out. With out field current you have no Alternator!
>
> In IFR You have HAD IT! NO DC power!
>
> Wonder how many 'good' pilots have been killed in IFR with a total
> power outage?? no Radio distress call because of no electrical
> power!........ no radios, no lights, no auto pilot, no
> transponder, no turn and bank indicator ( Partial panel capability
> lost) ......... everyone wonders what happened????
>
> Seconds to live, ....... because of ONE........ get it!!! ONE
> common point failure of an essential IFR system!

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> wrote in message
...
> The battery Contactor on MOST GA airplanes is
> 'powered' ( grounded) by ONE wire!
>
> You GAMBLE your life and you Pax's life in IFR conditions by
> way of:
<...>


I feel that it is my duty to warn you against flying with someone like
MXSMANIAC - something as simple as tripping over the power cord would result
in a TRAGIC end to the "flight"!!!!!!!

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[[email protected]]

Holy Single Points of Failure, Batman!!!!!!

My airplane only has one engine with one crankshaft and one
propeller!!! And only one rudder too!!!!!

ZOMG!!!!! I'm gonna DIE!!!
And so are you.
And that's guaranteed. 100% of us are all gonna die.

(but not necessarily today, and not necessarily in an airplane crash
either)
(and until my day comes, I'm going to keep on flying as long as I have
my health and can afford to buy the fuel)

[Dan Luke[_2_]]

> wrote:

>
> Seconds to live, ....... because of ONE........ get it!!! ONE
> common point failure of an essential IFR system!

What are you selling, parachutes?

[Stealth Pilot[_2_]]

On Thu, 27 Mar 2008 15:17:11 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>Holy Single Points of Failure, Batman!!!!!!
>
>My airplane only has one engine with one crankshaft and one
>propeller!!! And only one rudder too!!!!!
>
>ZOMG!!!!! I'm gonna DIE!!!
>And so are you.
>And that's guaranteed. 100% of us are all gonna die.
>
>(but not necessarily today, and not necessarily in an airplane crash
>either)
>(and until my day comes, I'm going to keep on flying as long as I have
>my health and can afford to buy the fuel)


that attitude is an absolute disease.
I know this for certain.
I think I'll sneak down to the hangar tomorrow morning and go for a
fly...
Stealth Pilot

[Michael[_1_]]

On Mar 27, 6:17*pm, wrote:
> Holy Single Points of Failure, Batman!!!!!!
>
> My airplane only has one engine with one crankshaft and one
> propeller!!! And only one rudder too!!!!!
>
> ZOMG!!!!! I'm gonna DIE!!!
> And so are you.
> And that's guaranteed. 100% of us are all gonna die.

That's certainly guaranteed, but I personally have no desire to hasten
my death. That won't keep me from flying. Or from flying IFR. It
hasn't kept me from soaring, skydiving, BASE jumping, riding
motorcycles, traveling to South America, etc. It has, however, caused
me to pay attention to single point failures.

A rudder failure in a single engine airplane won't ever kill you. It
just means you will have to land a little hot and straight into the
wind, and that may mean some damage (though if the way lots of
students land these days is any indication, maybe not so much), but as
long as you keep your head, you will live. You shouldn't even get
hurt in a lot of airplanes (I have a suspicion that most of the
Cherokees on the rental line are landed without rudder use as a matter
of course).

An engine failure in a single engine airplane has a likelihood of
killing you, and that likelihood depends a lot on how you use the
airplane and what sort of airplane it is (check into the accident
record of Cessna T210's sometime - pretty scary).

All planes are not created equal. Some have more nasty single point
failures than others. The OP actually brought up a point that, while
not totally valid, is also something that (in my experience) most
pilots have not considered - and should. There are planes out there
(single AND twin) where a single point failure will actually take down
the entire electrical system and give you a dark airplane. What's
more, some of these single point failures are (a) relatively common,
and (b) more likely to occur as the plane gets older and wiring is not
replaced.

Day-VFR, this is not a big deal. Heck, day-VFR I'll cheerfully fly a
plane with no electrical system at all (and have). But night-IFR it's
not so nice. Even night-VFR. BTDT.

If you're flying a plane where several common single point failures
exist, each of which alone can take down your electrical system, you
would be foolish to fly it IFR in conditions where you can't simply
cruise to VFR or make a safe descent over an open area, unless you
have a reasonable backup. Once upon a time that backup used to be a
handheld Nav-Com, which allowed you to shoot some sort of half-ass VOR
or LOC (and I do know someone who has had to do it). These days the
sensible backup is a handheld GPS. Of course to make use of it, you
need to know how to shoot an approach off it. What's more, you need
to be able to shoot the full approach because you won't be getting
RADAR services.

Do you know how? Have you ever tried? Think maybe you should?

Michael

[Robert M. Gary]

On Mar 26, 10:30*pm, wrote:
> The battery Contactor on *MOST *GA *airplanes *is
> 'powered' ( grounded) * by ONE wire!

I fly a retract so I always carry a spare set of landing gear in the
back. You never know when you may need it and your life may depend on
it!

-Robert

[Jim Stewart]

wrote:
> The battery Contactor on MOST GA airplanes is
> 'powered' ( grounded) by ONE wire!

again. The same guy that brought
us the enlightening thread on private pilot uniforms....

http://groups.google.com/groups/profile?hl=en&enc_user=czH0sBAAAADznsBMn-vZNCrtK_8tdD2v