Re: Imperial War Museum Duxford

[Keith Willshaw]

"Mycroft" > wrote in message
...
> I am going to visit Duxford in about 2 weeks is there anything there
people
> would advise me to see or would like me to photograph to post for them too
> see?
>
> Myc
>

Dont miss the Land Warfare hall, its a little way past the
main cluster of building but worth the visit.

Keith

[John Mullen]

Keith Willshaw wrote:
> "Mycroft" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I am going to visit Duxford in about 2 weeks is there anything there
>
> people
>
>>would advise me to see or would like me to photograph to post for them too
>>see?
>>
>>Myc
>>
>
>
> Dont miss the Land Warfare hall, its a little way past the
> main cluster of building but worth the visit.
>
> Keith
>
>
The new hangar (sorry, I can't remember what it's called) is excellent.
B52, F111 etc etc


Look out for the V1 launch ramp outside!

John

[Keith Willshaw]

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> Keith Willshaw wrote:

> >
> The new hangar (sorry, I can't remember what it's called) is excellent.
> B52, F111 etc etc
>

That's the American air museum.


>
> Look out for the V1 launch ramp outside!
>

And the 9.2" Gun

Keith

[M. H. Greaves]

Also look out for TSR2, a big white jet, theres quite a story about that
jet, although its painted with xr219, its actually probably xr221.
Xr 219 was the only one that flew, xr220 was about to fly but didnt because
the project was cancelled the evening before, and was hence grounded, she is
in R.A.F. Cosford i believe. the only other one would have been xr221 which
was the next one in line on the production line.
Xr 219 was towed to essex where she was shot at by other aircraft, "to see
what the effects of bullets hitting her were", and was then scrapped.
The competetiors were the American general Dynamics F111, which was
cancelled as an order from U.S., the australians bought it and had years of
development problems with it until it eventually cost in the region of
£229.000.000.000 or so, T.S.R. 2 cost 195million up to point of
cancellation.
Lord Mountbatten wanted the Blackburn Buccaneer, as a strike aircraft, and
so the buccaneer was ordered in U.K.
Its an interesting story.



"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
> > >
> > The new hangar (sorry, I can't remember what it's called) is excellent.
> > B52, F111 etc etc
> >
>
> That's the American air museum.
>
>
> >
> > Look out for the V1 launch ramp outside!
> >
>
> And the 9.2" Gun
>
> Keith
>
>

[John Mullen]

M. H. Greaves wrote:
> Also look out for TSR2, a big white jet, theres quite a story about that
> jet, although its painted with xr219, its actually probably xr221.
> Xr 219 was the only one that flew, xr220 was about to fly but didnt because
> the project was cancelled the evening before, and was hence grounded, she is
> in R.A.F. Cosford i believe. the only other one would have been xr221 which
> was the next one in line on the production line.
> Xr 219 was towed to essex where she was shot at by other aircraft, "to see
> what the effects of bullets hitting her were", and was then scrapped.
> The competetiors were the American general Dynamics F111, which was
> cancelled as an order from U.S., the australians bought it and had years of
> development problems with it until it eventually cost in the region of
> £229.000.000.000 or so, T.S.R. 2 cost 195million up to point of
> cancellation.
> Lord Mountbatten wanted the Blackburn Buccaneer, as a strike aircraft, and
> so the buccaneer was ordered in U.K.
> Its an interesting story.
>

And a beautiful plane. It could (almost) still be flying now if it had
been built in quantity. Years ahead of its time.

>
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>>Keith Willshaw wrote:
>>
>>>The new hangar (sorry, I can't remember what it's called) is excellent.
>>>B52, F111 etc etc
>>>
>>
>>That's the American air museum.
>>

That's it! Built in, what, about 2001? I've only been once but it was
amazing.

John

[M. H. Greaves]

absolutely!
i DID have the video, but it got chewed in the VCR, very good.
It was cancelled because of political procrastination (no i havent swallowed
the dictionary!! lol), by a new labour government.
I think its very hard to actually point a finger of blame at an individual,
because they were all involved, but no one will admit to being the axeman.
Our local library has a book called TSR 2, it also has one called the murder
of TSR 2, its not in general circulation for rent; it has to be requested in
advance.
I had a vacform kit 1:72 scale, until recently, when i sold my entire
collection to some one in boston lincolnshire; it took me a year to build
the thing! because i wanted it right in every possible way, so i researched
it thoroughly.
Incidentaly, the F111 programme sold to Australia was 10 years late in
delivery because of technical and development problems. It cost £220 billion
up to then.
but lord mount batten would go around trying to sell the buccaneer, saying
that you could buy 3 bucc's to 1 TSR 2, ultimately he got his way, tha RAF
didnt want the buccaneer, so they bought the F4 Phantom from USA, and
altered it to take the rolls royce spey afterburner engines.
Like i say its quite a story.
regards, Mark.

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> M. H. Greaves wrote:
> > Also look out for TSR2, a big white jet, theres quite a story about that
> > jet, although its painted with xr219, its actually probably xr221.
> > Xr 219 was the only one that flew, xr220 was about to fly but didnt
because
> > the project was cancelled the evening before, and was hence grounded,
she is
> > in R.A.F. Cosford i believe. the only other one would have been xr221
which
> > was the next one in line on the production line.
> > Xr 219 was towed to essex where she was shot at by other aircraft, "to
see
> > what the effects of bullets hitting her were", and was then scrapped.
> > The competetiors were the American general Dynamics F111, which was
> > cancelled as an order from U.S., the australians bought it and had years
of
> > development problems with it until it eventually cost in the region of
> > £229.000.000.000 or so, T.S.R. 2 cost 195million up to point of
> > cancellation.
> > Lord Mountbatten wanted the Blackburn Buccaneer, as a strike aircraft,
and
> > so the buccaneer was ordered in U.K.
> > Its an interesting story.
> >
>
> And a beautiful plane. It could (almost) still be flying now if it had
> been built in quantity. Years ahead of its time.
>
> >
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>"John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>>Keith Willshaw wrote:
> >>
> >>>The new hangar (sorry, I can't remember what it's called) is excellent.
> >>>B52, F111 etc etc
> >>>
> >>
> >>That's the American air museum.
> >>
>
> That's it! Built in, what, about 2001? I've only been once but it was
> amazing.
>
> John
>

[Alan Dicey]

A good TSR-2 potted history site can be found on Damien Burke's "Thunder
and Lightnings" site:

http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/history.html

I think that TSR-2 was cancelled by an aircraft-industry-hating Labour
government, who really wanted to cancel Concorde, but discovered that
the penalty clauses were too punative. Though they repeatedly denied
it, I'm convinced that Jenkins and Healey were the prime movers. The
spite and malice attending the cancellation still make me angry (jigs
and tooling destroyed, documentation and even photographs burned). This
all points to the political nature of the cancellation. They might as
well have sown the Warton airfield with salt.

[Greg Hennessy]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 02:12:04 +0000, Alan Dicey
> wrote:

>
>A good TSR-2 potted history site can be found on Damien Burke's "Thunder
>and Lightnings" site:
>
>http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/history.html
>
>I think that TSR-2 was cancelled by an aircraft-industry-hating Labour
>government,

Considering the person who ultimately authorised it also happened to be
head of the board of trade when RR Nenes and Derwents were swapped for
russian timber freely available in the Sterling zone. One could ascribe
motives a lot more sinister than just hating the aircraft industry.



greg
--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[M. H. Greaves]

Yes i absolutely agree!
Labour gov't wanted the aircraft ind' to build aircraft that were already
established, but did not want the industry to "go breaching the realms of
science". At least thats what Jenkins says on the video, really labour has
done irreversible damage to britians aircraft industry, we no longer make
them here on our own, they have to be in collaboration with another nation,
look at the tornado for example.
All of the uk's people went to USA after the TSR 2 fiasco.
Thanks for the link
regards, mark.
"Alan Dicey" > wrote in message
...
>
> A good TSR-2 potted history site can be found on Damien Burke's "Thunder
> and Lightnings" site:
>
> http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/history.html
>
> I think that TSR-2 was cancelled by an aircraft-industry-hating Labour
> government, who really wanted to cancel Concorde, but discovered that
> the penalty clauses were too punative. Though they repeatedly denied
> it, I'm convinced that Jenkins and Healey were the prime movers. The
> spite and malice attending the cancellation still make me angry (jigs
> and tooling destroyed, documentation and even photographs burned). This
> all points to the political nature of the cancellation. They might as
> well have sown the Warton airfield with salt.
>
>

[Peter Twydell]

In article >, M. H.
Greaves > writes
>Yes i absolutely agree!
>Labour gov't wanted the aircraft ind' to build aircraft that were already
>established, but did not want the industry to "go breaching the realms of
>science". At least thats what Jenkins says on the video, really labour has
>done irreversible damage to britians aircraft industry, we no longer make
>them here on our own, they have to be in collaboration with another nation,
>look at the tornado for example.
>All of the uk's people went to USA after the TSR 2 fiasco.
>Thanks for the link
>regards, mark.
>
>"Alan Dicey" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> A good TSR-2 potted history site can be found on Damien Burke's "Thunder
>> and Lightnings" site:
>>
>> http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/history.html
>>
>> I think that TSR-2 was cancelled by an aircraft-industry-hating Labour
>> government, who really wanted to cancel Concorde, but discovered that
>> the penalty clauses were too punative. Though they repeatedly denied
>> it, I'm convinced that Jenkins and Healey were the prime movers. The
>> spite and malice attending the cancellation still make me angry (jigs
>> and tooling destroyed, documentation and even photographs burned). This
>> all points to the political nature of the cancellation. They might as
>> well have sown the Warton airfield with salt.
>>
>>
>
>
There were paeans of praise for Roy Jenkins when he died, but all I
could think of was "You were one of the *******s who killed the most
advanced aircraft of its day". As Mark says, Jenkins, Healey and all
couldn't understand why the industry had to build something new instead
of existing designs. The fundamental problem was that the government of
the time was made up of academics who mostly had no conception of the
real world of industry. What good is a degree in English Literature or
the Classics when you have to decide on the merits of a supersonic
bomber?

The present lot are just as bad - lawyers and socialist academics - the
only one who has ever worn a uniform is Fatty "Two Jags" Prescott, and
that was as a ship's steward in the Merchant Navy.

There appears to be a snobbish mindset at the heart of British society
that considers anything to do with engineering to be dirty and
undignified, and manufacturing to be vulgar. The City is interested only
in short-term profit, and doesn't seem capable of investing in the
creativity and skill of inventors and engineers in the UK.

\rant
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[M. H. Greaves]

I dont want to go off topic but i dont see this so called "new labour" as
labour, theyre every bit as much in the tory mould.
"Peter Twydell" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, M. H.
> Greaves > writes
> >Yes i absolutely agree!
> >Labour gov't wanted the aircraft ind' to build aircraft that were already
> >established, but did not want the industry to "go breaching the realms of
> >science". At least thats what Jenkins says on the video, really labour
has
> >done irreversible damage to britians aircraft industry, we no longer make
> >them here on our own, they have to be in collaboration with another
nation,
> >look at the tornado for example.
> >All of the uk's people went to USA after the TSR 2 fiasco.
> >Thanks for the link
> >regards, mark.
> >
> >"Alan Dicey" > wrote in
message
> ...
> >>
> >> A good TSR-2 potted history site can be found on Damien Burke's
"Thunder
> >> and Lightnings" site:
> >>
> >> http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/tsr2/history.html
> >>
> >> I think that TSR-2 was cancelled by an aircraft-industry-hating Labour
> >> government, who really wanted to cancel Concorde, but discovered that
> >> the penalty clauses were too punative. Though they repeatedly denied
> >> it, I'm convinced that Jenkins and Healey were the prime movers. The
> >> spite and malice attending the cancellation still make me angry (jigs
> >> and tooling destroyed, documentation and even photographs burned). This
> >> all points to the political nature of the cancellation. They might as
> >> well have sown the Warton airfield with salt.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> There were paeans of praise for Roy Jenkins when he died, but all I
> could think of was "You were one of the *******s who killed the most
> advanced aircraft of its day". As Mark says, Jenkins, Healey and all
> couldn't understand why the industry had to build something new instead
> of existing designs. The fundamental problem was that the government of
> the time was made up of academics who mostly had no conception of the
> real world of industry. What good is a degree in English Literature or
> the Classics when you have to decide on the merits of a supersonic
> bomber?
>
> The present lot are just as bad - lawyers and socialist academics - the
> only one who has ever worn a uniform is Fatty "Two Jags" Prescott, and
> that was as a ship's steward in the Merchant Navy.
>
> There appears to be a snobbish mindset at the heart of British society
> that considers anything to do with engineering to be dirty and
> undignified, and manufacturing to be vulgar. The City is interested only
> in short-term profit, and doesn't seem capable of investing in the
> creativity and skill of inventors and engineers in the UK.
>
> \rant
> --
> Peter
>
> Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Peter Twydell
> writes
>There appears to be a snobbish mindset at the heart of British society
>that considers anything to do with engineering to be dirty and
>undignified, and manufacturing to be vulgar. The City is interested only
>in short-term profit, and doesn't seem capable of investing in the
>creativity and skill of inventors and engineers in the UK.

So, no change in the last two hundred years, then.

The founder of the UK General Electric Company wrote in his diaries
about the precautions he took to prevent his friends finding out he was
actually 'in trade' - instant blackball had he been found to be involved
in buying and selling, let alone of vulgar new-fangled 'electrical
goods'.

A century later, the City boys dumped everything that actually made
money so that ex-GEC - now "Marconi" with a twiddly new logo - could
concentrate on its core speciality of buying high and selling low.
Building stuff and selling it was passe, Marconi would ride to riches in
the New Economy by trading e-services in a network-enabled paradigm.

Not much changes.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Greg Hennessy]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2004 22:54:20 +0000, Alan Dicey
> wrote:

>Greg Hennessy wrote:
>> Considering the person who ultimately authorised it also happened to be
>> head of the board of trade when RR Nenes and Derwents were swapped for
>> russian timber freely available in the Sterling zone. One could ascribe
>> motives a lot more sinister than just hating the aircraft industry.
>>
>
>Nnnnnooooo, I don't think so - - - President of the Board of Trade
>during the disgraceful affair of the Nenes and Derwents was the
>memorably-monickered Sir Stifford Crapps (or was it Stafford Cripps?

Cripps was chancellor when the engines were shipped in 47. Stripping RAF
frontline squadrons of spares and replacements in the process.

IIRC Wilson was part of the 'trade' delegation led by Cripps which did the
'deal' in 1946. Considering Cripps disgraceful behaviour prior to June 41
and his attempts to destroy the war cabinet if the soviets werent given
enough largesse after that date, one can but wonder if we'll ever know the
true story.


>It
>is far too easy a target to ignore). Guilty of incredible naivety, he
>was in thrall to Uncle Joe and believed he could do no wrong.

Not suprising considering they were the inheritors of the Webbs 'We saw no
ukrainian famine' mantle.

>
>Anyway, Crapps retired in 1950, so can't be blamed for TSR-2 as well.
>Who did you have in mind, Wilson?

Wislon was president of the board of trade when the nenes and derwents were
shipped.


greg



>

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[Alan Dicey]

Greg Hennessy wrote:

> Cripps was chancellor when the engines were shipped in 47. Stripping RAF
> frontline squadrons of spares and replacements in the process.
>
> IIRC Wilson was part of the 'trade' delegation led by Cripps which did the
> 'deal' in 1946. Considering Cripps disgraceful behaviour prior to June 41
> and his attempts to destroy the war cabinet if the soviets werent given
> enough largesse after that date, one can but wonder if we'll ever know the
> true story.
and
>
> Wislon was president of the board of trade when the nenes and derwents were
> shipped.

I have located a reference that is the best documentation I have on this
subject

Ref: Air Enthusiast, July/August 2001; "Turbojets for Stalin" by Tony
Buttler.

He says he used newly-released official papers to shed light on the
affair. To summarise the 5-page article:

The Soviet Union placed an order with Rolls for ten Nene and ten Derwent
engines in July 1946. Lord Hives (for R-R) wrote to Cripps (President
of the Board of Trade) asking for approval - "We hope that politics will
not prevent us from executing this order".

Cripps replied in the *negative* to Hives in August. However on
September 26th he is recorded as taking the matter to Attlee (the Prime
Minister) and urging that the export license be granted!

Attlee asked the Chiefs of Staff, who did not object, and then granted
the export license. The engines were not on the Secret list, which
seems to have been important. The delivery was begun in January 1947 at
a rate of four Derwent and three Nene per month, so completed in April.

Cripps biographical details follow: -

"Sir (Richard) Stafford Cripps, PC, KC
[leader of the House of Commons and Lord Privy Seal 1942; undertook
unsuccessful mission to India 1942; President of the Board of Trade from
July 1945 - Sept. 1947; member of the cabinet mission to India 1946;
Minister for Economic Affairs Sept.-Nov.1947;Chancellor of the Exchequer
Nov. 1947-50.]"

He was President of the Board of Trade for the whole of the affair,
Wilson not taking over until September 1947. Along with Attlee, then,
most of the blame falls on him.

The Soviets asked for more engines, Meteor IV's and Vampires in 1947.
Attlee said that since the aircraft were off the secret list and had
been already sold to other countries, he could not prevent the sale but
encouraged procrastination and delay. The Americans, who had not been
notified, were not best pleased: Air Marshal Goddard (RAF delgation
Washington) delivered this comment : -
"We are being regarded as a second Sweden. People here are not aware of
our Commonwealth economic and production policy for defence but cannot
believe we shall give in to adversity and become nondescript like France"

!!

[Greg Hennessy]

On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:09:18 +0000, Alan Dicey
> wrote:


>Cripps replied in the *negative* to Hives in August. However on
>September 26th he is recorded as taking the matter to Attlee (the Prime
>Minister) and urging that the export license be granted!
>

That doesnt surprise me.

>Attlee asked the Chiefs of Staff, who did not object, and then granted
>the export license.

One wonders WTF the chiefs of staff were smoking.

>The Soviets asked for more engines, Meteor IV's and Vampires in 1947.

Asking for meteors and vampires seem strange, one wonders why.

>Attlee said that since the aircraft were off the secret list and had
>been already sold to other countries, he could not prevent the sale but
>encouraged procrastination and delay.

It was a bit late at that stage, the soviets already had the engines to
reverse engineer.

>The Americans, who had not been
>notified, were not best pleased:

Who can blame them.


greg


--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[John Mullen]

Greg Hennessy wrote:
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 14:09:18 +0000, Alan Dicey
> > wrote:
>
>
>
>>Cripps replied in the *negative* to Hives in August. However on
>>September 26th he is recorded as taking the matter to Attlee (the Prime
>>Minister) and urging that the export license be granted!
>>
>
>
> That doesnt surprise me.
>
>
>>Attlee asked the Chiefs of Staff, who did not object, and then granted
>>the export license.
>
>
> One wonders WTF the chiefs of staff were smoking.
>
>
>>The Soviets asked for more engines, Meteor IV's and Vampires in 1947.
>
>
> Asking for meteors and vampires seem strange, one wonders why.
>
>
>>Attlee said that since the aircraft were off the secret list and had
>>been already sold to other countries, he could not prevent the sale but
>>encouraged procrastination and delay.
>
>
> It was a bit late at that stage, the soviets already had the engines to
> reverse engineer.
>
>
>>The Americans, who had not been
>>notified, were not best pleased:
>
>
> Who can blame them.
>
>
> greg
>
>
http://www.johnmullen.org.uk/aerospce/pics/tsr22.htm