"What if" questions regarding TSR.2, Avro Arrow

[M. Santoro]

I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
or opinion would be welcome.

[Keith Willshaw]

"M. Santoro" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
> early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
> massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.

Agaunst whom ?

Are you postulating a Free Newfoundland rebellion

> Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
> series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
> campaign?

None


> Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
> rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
> the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
> new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
> or opinion would be welcome.

Take a look at Northern Ireland, I dont recall much
call for air strikes there.

Keith

[Nick Pedley]

"M. Santoro" > wrote in message
om...
> I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
> early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
> massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
> Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
> series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
> campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
> rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
> the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
> new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
> or opinion would be welcome.
>

Do I know you from www.whatifmodelers.com and
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum/ at all?
If not, drop in and give us all a shout. Remember the TSR.2 wasn't just a
nuclear bomber but also carried regular loads like the Tornado does today.

Nick

[robert arndt]

"Nick Pedley" > wrote in message >...
> "M. Santoro" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
> > early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
> > massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
> > Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
> > series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
> > campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
> > rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
> > the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
> > new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
> > or opinion would be welcome.


The Canadians would have probably just "armed" Tutors instead for COIN work:

http://www.airforce.forces.ca/grfx/equip_gallery/tutor/wallpaper/WGD00-0247.jpg

Rob

[M. Santoro]

Keith,

I'll accept "none" as a valid answer! The story idea assumes that the
US rebellion failed in 1776, only to flare up again two centuries
later. If the RAF or c-wealth air forces were ill-equipped to fight
that kind of war, so much the better from a storywriting perspective.

Thanks,
- Martin

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...
> "M. Santoro" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
> > early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
> > massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
>
> Agaunst whom ?
>
> Are you postulating a Free Newfoundland rebellion
>
> > Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
> > series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
> > campaign?
>
> None
>
>
> > Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
> > rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
> > the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
> > new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
> > or opinion would be welcome.
>
> Take a look at Northern Ireland, I dont recall much
> call for air strikes there.
>
> Keith

[M. Santoro]

Thanks Nick, and will do. I think your forum might be what I'm
looking for in terms of help or ideas.

Cheers
- Martin

"Nick Pedley" > wrote in message >...
> "M. Santoro" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I'm toying with a few alt history ideas regarding the late 1960s and
> > early 1970s...specifically UK and Commonwealth involvement in a
> > massive anti-guerilla/counterinsurgency campaign in North America.
> > Given that, if the TSR.2 and the Avro Arrow had been built and entered
> > series production, what kind of role might they play in such a
> > campaign? Both were designed with the Big, Bad Sovs in mind, either
> > rolling across the Fulda Gap or lumbering over the Arctic. But like
> > the F-105 or F-111, could these aircraft that almost were have found a
> > new role during times of less-than-conventional crisis? Any insight
> > or opinion would be welcome.
> >
>
> Do I know you from www.whatifmodelers.com and
> http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum/ at all?
> If not, drop in and give us all a shout. Remember the TSR.2 wasn't just a
> nuclear bomber but also carried regular loads like the Tornado does today.
>
> Nick

[Keith Willshaw]

"M. Santoro" > wrote in message
om...
> Keith,
>
> I'll accept "none" as a valid answer! The story idea assumes that the
> US rebellion failed in 1776, only to flare up again two centuries
> later. If the RAF or c-wealth air forces were ill-equipped to fight
> that kind of war, so much the better from a storywriting perspective.
>
> Thanks,
> - Martin
>

If the rebellion of 1776 had failed I'd still expect that the North American
colonies would achieve indepedence following the same sort of
model as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

Keith

[Peter Kemp]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:49:30 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> wrote:

>
>"M. Santoro" > wrote in message
om...
>> Keith,
>>
>> I'll accept "none" as a valid answer! The story idea assumes that the
>> US rebellion failed in 1776, only to flare up again two centuries
>> later. If the RAF or c-wealth air forces were ill-equipped to fight
>> that kind of war, so much the better from a storywriting perspective.
>>
>If the rebellion of 1776 had failed I'd still expect that the North American
>colonies would achieve indepedence following the same sort of
>model as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.

And indeed it would be likely to be the Commonwealth of North America,
including both the Canadian provinces as well as the American
colonies, probably with a capital in either New York or Boston.

An interesting what-if would be whether the area of the Louisiana
Purchase and the South Western "aquisitions" would have occured - I
can see Louisiana being taken post 1815 as reparations, but I'm not
sure if the Empire would have taken on Texas, California and so on.

Peter Kemp

[Keith Willshaw]

"Peter Kemp" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 12:49:30 -0000, "Keith Willshaw"
> > wrote:
>

> >>
> >If the rebellion of 1776 had failed I'd still expect that the North
American
> >colonies would achieve indepedence following the same sort of
> >model as Canada, Australia and New Zealand.
>
> And indeed it would be likely to be the Commonwealth of North America,
> including both the Canadian provinces as well as the American
> colonies, probably with a capital in either New York or Boston.
>

> An interesting what-if would be whether the area of the Louisiana
> Purchase and the South Western "aquisitions" would have occured - I
> can see Louisiana being taken post 1815 as reparations, but I'm not
> sure if the Empire would have taken on Texas, California and so on.
>

Which might make Mexico a rather more signifcant nation than
it is today but would probably prevented the American civil
war since slavery would have been abolished in the south
in the 1830's as it was elsewhere in the Empire

What price the great Mexican-American War of 1900

Keith

[Jack]

On 1/27/04 12:11 PM, in article , "Keith
Willshaw" > wrote:

> ...would probably [have] prevented the American civil
> war since slavery would have been abolished in the south
> in the 1830's as it was elsewhere in the Empire.

I think you give too little weight to the same factors which made it
necessary a generation later.

Abolition may have precipitated a revolution and break from England as
taxation and other grievances did two generations earlier.



-------
Jack
-------

[John Mullen]

Jack wrote:

> On 1/27/04 12:11 PM, in article , "Keith
> Willshaw" > wrote:
>
>
>>...would probably [have] prevented the American civil
>>war since slavery would have been abolished in the south
>>in the 1830's as it was elsewhere in the Empire.
>
>
> I think you give too little weight to the same factors which made it
> necessary a generation later.
>
> Abolition may have precipitated a revolution and break from England

It's 'Britain'

as
> taxation and other grievances did two generations earlier.

John

[Jack]

On 1/27/04 1:54 PM, in article ,
"John Mullen" > wrote:

> Jack wrote:

>> Abolition may have precipitated a revolution and break from England
>
> It's 'Britain'

Oh, do go on with the lesson, Mr. Mullen.

No doubt you are about to tell us something like:

"Britain is a monarchy in northwestern Europe occupying most
of the British Isles; divided into England and Scotland and
Wales and Northern Ireland."

Seems, though that the government is in England, is it not? I could as well
have said "London", since London is the seat of government, the home of the
royal family and is at the heart of British business and financial life, and
was so, I suppose, since well before 1776.

Such a pity that "Scotland and Wales and Northern Ireland" were never quite
able to get out from underneath, too.



-------
Jack
-------

[Keith Willshaw]

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
> On 1/27/04 12:11 PM, in article , "Keith
> Willshaw" > wrote:
>
> > ...would probably [have] prevented the American civil
> > war since slavery would have been abolished in the south
> > in the 1830's as it was elsewhere in the Empire.
>
> I think you give too little weight to the same factors which made it
> necessary a generation later.
>
> Abolition may have precipitated a revolution and break from England as
> taxation and other grievances did two generations earlier.
>

Perhaps but I doubt it, the main market for their products
was Britain and the Conferederates dream was to get
Britain (and France) to recognise them as an independent
nation and use the RN to break the union blockade.

None of that is even remotely possible and if anything
the anti-slavery movement in the North would probably
be even stronger and a Confederacy that didnt include
Texas would be somewhat weaker.

Keith