Re: Captured A/C Shootdown?

[Krztalizer]

>
>For example the Germans captured many Allied aircraft and test flew and
>demonstrated them in their own markings. Were any ever shot down?
>

A P-61 shot down a Luftwaffe-flown KG 200 B-17 in early 1945. It had been
involved in dropping German agents in American uniforms. The "Böing" was found
after crashing and the (7? I think) survivors of the crew gave their captors
information about their mission.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
(JDupre5762) wrote:

> Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from any war that while being test
> flown by the capturing force was attacked and shotdown its previous owners or
> allies?
>
> For example the Germans captured many Allied aircraft and test flew and
> demonstrated them in their own markings. Were any ever shot down?
>
> I am not considering aircraft captured or purchased from a capturing force
> that
> were so numerous as to be put into actual operational service, i.e. the
> numerous Polikarpovs and Tupolevs of Finland.
>
> John Dupre'

I had an AF ROTC instructor in the late 50s/early 60s, who was a B-17
pilot. He said that one day, a black b-17 shadowed their squadron and
did not respond to calls to join up. They then called in fighters, which
shot it down.

[Cub Driver]

>Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from any war that while being test
>flown by the capturing force was attacked and shotdown its previous owners or
>allies?

The Japanese army's 64th Sentai captured and made airworthy two RAF
Hurricanes at Palembang, the Dutch Indies (Indonesia).

The vertical tail was painted white after an incident in which other
Japanese pilots attacked the Hurricanes. In March 1942 they were flown
to Bangkok and then to Chiang Mai in Thailand, where the 64th Sentai
was to be based for the final push on Burma.

The intention was to use them in "werewolf" raids on RAF bases in
Burma. Before this could be carried out, both were destroyed by the
AVG strafe of Chiang Mai on March 24, 1942.

As it happens, I just finished a page on the Werewolf Hurricanes that
I will be posting when I update the Annals of the Flying Tigers on
February 1.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Matt Wiser]

(JDupre5762) wrote:
>Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from
>any war that while being test
>flown by the capturing force was attacked and
>shotdown its previous owners or
>allies?
>
>For example the Germans captured many Allied
>aircraft and test flew and
>demonstrated them in their own markings. Were
>any ever shot down?
>
>I am not considering aircraft captured or purchased
>from a capturing force that
>were so numerous as to be put into actual operational
>service, i.e. the
>numerous Polikarpovs and Tupolevs of Finland.
>
>John Dupre'
Strangers in a Strange Land by Hans-Henri Stapfer mentions a captured B-17
flown by KG 200 as being shot down by an RAF Mosquito Night Fighter over
France in Feb of '45.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Krztalizer]

>> I had an AF ROTC instructor in the late 50s/early 60s, who was a B-17
>> pilot. He said that one day, a black b-17 shadowed their squadron and
>> did not respond to calls to join up. They then called in fighters, which
>> shot it down.
>
>There is no evidence that the ever Germans did such a thing --
>KG 200 used it captured aircraft for other purposes -- but the
>belief was widespread among US aircrews,

Absolutely agree with this - its one of those anecdotes that is believed by
nearly everyone, but the only units that operated captured US equipment never
flew them in this manner. These turncoat aircraft were a literally priceless
commodity and exposing them to their own flak, escorts -and- Luftwaffe
fighters, as well as the bristling armada of B-17 formations is just silly -
they didn't do it. Yes, the Germans flew various aircraft as "shadows",
tailing the bomber formations and reporting on their movements, but this was
done primarily by Ju 88 heavy fighters. Wasting a captured B-17 on such a
mission would simply not be done.


> and it was common
>to shoot at stragglers trying to join up with the formation. Especially,
>of course, if it was not their own unit. As a straggler was known
>to be an easy target for enemy fighters, this was a difficult choice...
>for both sides.

Very true and you have to wonder how many US airmen perished because their
aircraft were so damaged that they could not keep up with their own groups -
slowly being overtaken by other formations, edgy and trigger-happy and suddenly
facing an "unfamiliar" B-17 that would 'appear' to be shadowing their
movements. Tragic, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Germans
sending one of their rare war prizes into a situation where it would be fired
upon by literally everyone, with predictable results.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Crusader561]

(Krztalizer) wrote in message >...

> > and it was common
> >to shoot at stragglers trying to join up with the formation. Especially,
> >of course, if it was not their own unit. As a straggler was known
> >to be an easy target for enemy fighters, this was a difficult choice...
> >for both sides.
>
> Very true and you have to wonder how many US airmen perished because their
> aircraft were so damaged that they could not keep up with their own groups -
> slowly being overtaken by other formations, edgy and trigger-happy and suddenly
> facing an "unfamiliar" B-17 that would 'appear' to be shadowing their
> movements. Tragic, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than the Germans
> sending one of their rare war prizes into a situation where it would be fired
> upon by literally everyone, with predictable results.

Wow..this floors me. Were aircrews that worried by fake or captured
aircraft that they would shoot at anything not in their formation? I
hope Art is
following this thread and comments because this sounds to incredible
to
believe.

[Krztalizer]

>
>Wow..this floors me. Were aircrews that worried by fake or captured
>aircraft that they would shoot at anything not in their formation?

_Absolutely_. Go to one of the dozens of 8th AF sites on the net and ask the
assembled former crewmen if they would allow a "stranger" to join in with them
- that will provide all the confirmation that is required. At any meeting of
them, you'll hear about the day, "...a captured B-17 tried to join up with us,
but we drove him off...", with predictable results.

That said, there are hundreds of events when damaged aircraft WERE allowed to
tuck in with other formations, so it all came down to just how rattled the
following groups were at the time the 'stranger' showed up.

> I
>hope Art is
>following this thread and comments because this sounds to incredible
>to
>believe.

Incredible or not... Good look in your search.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Emmanuel.Gustin]

Crusader561 > wrote:

: Wow..this floors me. Were aircrews that worried by fake or captured
: aircraft that they would shoot at anything not in their formation?

Unidentified Stragglers trying to join would not
always be shot at, but quite often. And on those
occasions when stragglers from other formations
were allowed to join up, there certainly was tension
on both sides -- the pilot of the straggler knew
very well that the all the gunners in front of him
had him in their sights.

Of course gunners would not shoot at anything, but
they were trained not to care too much about markings
or aircraft types, because in combat these were too
hard to identify and a source of confusion. Instead,
they were trained to respond to the "behaviour" of
aircraft, whether they behaved aggressively or
suspiciously. The suspicion that aircraft trying to
follow a formation might be flown by Germans, also
turned ostensibly US aircraft following a similar
pattern of behaviour into potential targets.

One can hardly blame crews engaged in extremely
dangerous missions for being "worried". Sometimes,
as could not fail to happen,the limits of excusable
paranoia were exceeded; one bomber group -- IIRC
the 100th -- once produced a report complaining that
the Germans now not only had their aircraft painted
to look like American aircraft, but that they also
closely imitated their behaviour. The gunners had
fired nevertheless...

Emmanuel Gustin

[Cub Driver]

> Were aircrews that worried by fake or captured
>aircraft that they would shoot at anything not in their formation?

I think it's probably fair to say that most aircrews were so worried
about their *survival* that they shot at a lot of stuff not in their
formation.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[JDupre5762]

>>Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from any war that while being test
>>flown by the capturing force was attacked and shotdown its previous owners
>or
>>allies?

I have just heard of a story about a P-47 pilot named Fred Hillis who is
supposedly credited with 4 German built aircraft and one German flown American
aircraft, another P-47. The enemy flown P-47 was unmarked and had just shot
down an American P-47.

I had never heard of this incident before and so far Hillis is not mentioned in
Olynyk's Stars and Bars or my copy of the American Fighter Aces Album from
1979.

I suppose it could be another example of fratricide?

John Dupre'

[Krztalizer]

>
>I have just heard of a story about a P-47 pilot named Fred Hillis who is
>supposedly credited with 4 German built aircraft and one German flown
>American
>aircraft, another P-47. The enemy flown P-47 was unmarked and had just shot
>down an American P-47.

It was very common for aviators to confuse the FW 190 with the P-47. P-61s
attacked Mosquitos ("Bad SHOW!" over the radio), P-51Bs = Bf 109s, the list
goes on and on. One of the most advanced radars was being flight tested with a
crew of engineers onboard and unfortunately, they were shot down by Allied
fighters, killing all onboard. Friendly fire is all to often completely
ignored in WWII histories, but it was a part of everyday life.

>I had never heard of this incident before and so far Hillis is not mentioned
>in
>Olynyk's Stars and Bars or my copy of the American Fighter Aces Album from
>1979.

Frank's got a brand new version - very well done too.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Cub Driver]

There's an online account of this supposed incident:

http://www.stormbirds.com/hillis/tboltkill.htm

On 31 Jan 2004 12:03:34 GMT, (JDupre5762) wrote:

>>>Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from any war that while being test
>>>flown by the capturing force was attacked and shotdown its previous owners
>>or
>>>allies?
>
>I have just heard of a story about a P-47 pilot named Fred Hillis who is
>supposedly credited with 4 German built aircraft and one German flown American
>aircraft, another P-47. The enemy flown P-47 was unmarked and had just shot
>down an American P-47.
>
>I had never heard of this incident before and so far Hillis is not mentioned in
>Olynyk's Stars and Bars or my copy of the American Fighter Aces Album from
>1979.
>
>I suppose it could be another example of fratricide?
>
>John Dupre'

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>It was very common for aviators to confuse the FW 190 with the P-47. P-61s
>attacked Mosquitos ("Bad SHOW!" over the radio), P-51Bs = Bf 109s, the list
>goes on and on.

In Burma, an RAF Hurricane shot down a "Zero" that proved to be a PR
Hurricane painted dark blue.

In China, an AVG pilot in a P-40 shot down a B-25 Mitchell thinking it
was a Japanese bomber. Happily the crew was able to bail out safely.
They reported that they had been attacked by "Zeros".


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[PosterBoy]

"JDupre5762" > wrote in message
...
> >>Does anyone know of any captured aircraft from any war that while being
test
> >>flown by the capturing force was attacked and shotdown its previous
owners
> >or
> >>allies?
>
> I have just heard of a story about a P-47 pilot named Fred Hillis who is
> supposedly credited with 4 German built aircraft and one German flown
American
> aircraft, another P-47. The enemy flown P-47 was unmarked and had just
shot
> down an American P-47.
> I had never heard of this incident before and so far Hillis is not
mentioned in
> Olynyk's Stars and Bars or my copy of the American Fighter Aces Album from
> 1979.
> I suppose it could be another example of fratricide?
> John Dupre'

See:
http://www.stormbirds.com/hillis/tboltkill.htm

Cheers.

[Krztalizer]

>
>In China, an AVG pilot in a P-40 shot down a B-25 Mitchell thinking it
>was a Japanese bomber. Happily the crew was able to bail out safely.
>They reported that they had been attacked by "Zeros".
>

Par for the course...

On the Stormbirds website, the author of the Hillis piece goes into some detail
about how captured Allied fighters 'infiltrated' US formations: yet another
example of the confusion of aerial combat.
No German unit operating captured Allied aircraft tried this - instead, just
as we had done with theirs, the incredibly rare turncoats that were in good
enough condition to be returned to flying status (propellers were nearly always
dinged, engines damaged in crashes, etc.) were used to train LW pilots on the
capabilities and characteristics of the enemy aircraft and as such, they were
priceless. It should be noted that when turncoat aircraft were actually used
operationally in battle areas (B-17s primarily), it was done so at night, to
minimize their exposure to enemy fighters. Sending them up to tag along with
Allied formations would be literal suicide. As for the report of a "German
P-47" attacking other US fighters without markings, the "Luftwaffe pilot"
would be a target for absolutely everyone else in the sky - there would be no
"friends or foes", just a sky filled with foes and every flak gun on either
side of the lines would be shooting at it. Imagine us sending a captured MiG
15 up to battle other MiG 15s over the Yalu. Stripping such an event down to
its most basic likely explanation, this is either a tragic friendly fire
episode, or (every bit as likely) just plain poor recognition of an e/a in the
middle of a cloudy day. Its happened before and since.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.