George Patton Jr is not George Patton III

[ArtKramr]

Not by a long shot. In fact nowhere close. And it is disengenious to say Patton
said it and then when challenged say, "Oh not that Patton". There is only ONE
PATTON.And another Patton can't be substituted for him. At least not to those
who fought in WW II.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Not by a long shot. In fact nowhere close. And it is disengenious to say
Patton
> said it and then when challenged say, "Oh not that Patton". There is only
ONE
> PATTON.And another Patton can't be substituted for him. At least not to
those
> who fought in WW II.

Another OT posting from the fellow who despises OT posts...and no, there
have been quite a few George Patton's who attained some degree of military
fame. One graduated from VMI, the second one went through two years at VMI
before transferring to West Point and then going onto fame during WWI and
WWII, and the third was indeed also a general officer by the time he retired
after serving in Vietnam. Most of those who served in WWII are doubtless
quite willing to recognize this.

Brooks
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Not by a long shot. In fact nowhere close.

Yea!

> And it is disengenious to say Patton said it and then when
> challenged say, "Oh not that Patton".

Yea!

> There is only ONE PATTON.

Yea!

>And another Patton can't be substituted for him.

Yea!

> At least not to those who fought in WW II.

Yea!

[BUFDRVR]

>Not by a long shot. In fact nowhere close. And it is disengenious to say
>Patton
>said it and then when challenged say, "Oh not that Patton". There is only ONE
>PATTON.

What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic everyday.
The WW II Gen. Patton's son also served this country and also achieved a rank
very few do. Because he fought in Vietnam and not France and Germany, you some
how believe this to be "less than honorable". Well, I've got news for you old
man, leading men in Vietnam was a damn sight harder than leading men in the
open fields of France and George S. Patton *III* is more qualified to discuss
leadership in Vietnam than his father, even had his father lived to read about
Vietnam in the daily paper.

>And another Patton can't be substituted for him. At least not to those
>who fought in WW II.

You're right, the views of George S. Patton Jr. in regards to Vietnam would
have been meaningless since (had he lived) he had not served there. Now his son
on the other hand....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 1/31/04 5:39 AM Pacific

>Not by a long shot. In fact nowhere close. And it is disengenious to say
>>Patton
>>said it and then when challenged say, "Oh not that Patton". There is only
>ONE
>>PATTON.

>What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
>everyday.

Then don't open them. And you know where you can stick your personal insults.

>eading men in Vietnam was a damn sight harder than leading men in the
>open fields of France and George S. Patton *III* is more qualified to

>discuss
>leadership in Vietnam than his father, even had his father liv

How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.

Patton turned an army moving East to the North and broke through the Bastogne
salient ending the Battle of the Bulge and bringing the last German thrust to
an end. A few days later the skies over Bastogne cleared and the allied air
forces flew to resupply Bastogne from the air and the 344th was there in
force. Something you know zero about so it your posts that are a pile of
pretenious pathetic crap

PLONK

...
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tom Swift]

"BUFDRVR" <wrote in message
> What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
everyday.

Most were aware of this for years.

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> >What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
> >everyday.
>
> Then don't open them.

Why not increase your logic skills, and then we won't have to ignore you.

> Something you know zero about so it your posts that are a pile of
> pretenious pathetic crap

You're living in a dream world. History doesn't stop because you have retired
your brain. Patton Jr. would have more respect for modern warfare than you will
ever know. His son (Patton III) was an honorable soldier, and Kerry is/was and
always will be, a conniving politician and a first degree SOB. Kerry has zero
chance of making it out of the liberal northeast, as he lacks the honor necessary to
become something other than a pork-bearing Senator. Unlike Dole, he is
unwilling to go for broke. He wants to be President, but he'll hold-on to being
a pork-Senator in case he loses (and he will lose).

[Mike Marron]

(BUFDRVR) wrote:
(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>There is only ONE PATTON.

Amen. And after it won seven Academy Awards in 1970, any sequel to
thee one and only PATTON will have some mighty big shoes to fill. ;)

>What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
>everyday.

Gotta disagree there. Since he quit posting under his "Autocollimator"
alter ego (but only AFTER I exposed him as the abusive, phony *******
that unfortunately he has become) his postings as "ArtKramr" have
actually improved just a titch.

We all owe Kramer and his generation who fought in the Big One an
eternal debt of gratitude, however, contrary to his twisted moral
calculus, his serving in WW2 doesn't automatically give him carte
blanche to blatently disrespect and dish out abuse to those of us
who "weren't there."

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >Date: 1/31/04 5:39 AM Pacific
>
> >Not by a long shot. In fact nowhere close. And it is disengenious to say
> >>Patton
> >>said it and then when challenged say, "Oh not that Patton". There is
only
> >ONE
> >>PATTON.
>
> >What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
> >everyday.
>
> Then don't open them. And you know where you can stick your personal
insults.
>
> >eading men in Vietnam was a damn sight harder than leading men in the
> >open fields of France and George S. Patton *III* is more qualified to
>
> >discuss
> >leadership in Vietnam than his father, even had his father liv
>
> How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
>
> Patton turned an army moving East to the North and broke through the
Bastogne
> salient ending the Battle of the Bulge and bringing the last German thrust
to
> an end.

Let me clue you Art, the ten days after the end of the bulge was the
heaviest fighting there. The 101st didn't need saving.

[Leslie Swartz]

Agreed Mike- and furthermore, (getting back to the topic of the thread), Art
is consistent in applying the "I fought in combat therefore nobody can
quesiton my opinion on ANYTHING" equally to himself and Senator Kerry.

The criticism against Kerry (and Art) is not about what they did in combat .
.. . the criticism is about what they did AFTER serving (perhaps honorably;
perhaps not; irrelevant. Kerry was a sanctimonious, hypocritical,
traitorous son of a bitch AFTER he came home. Like Art, eh deserves no
special proptection for being an ass AFTER performing his service.)

Yes, Art has always used the "How dare you question me I served in combat"
argument to defend his wrong-headed, ignorant, socialist, communist,
traitorous, unconstitutional and irrational rantings since his very first "I
deserve free medicine/health care/rent/big screen tv/etc" posting int his
forum.

True- a lot of good men served, and served well, and died for the freedoms
of the French and British in WWII. However, a lot of greedy, stupid,
bigoted, SOBs did as well. That's what differentiates today's armed forces
from those of yesteryear. Just being there (back then) doesn't buy you a
"free pass" for all of eternity.

Steve Swartz



"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> (BUFDRVR) wrote:
> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >>There is only ONE PATTON.
>
> Amen. And after it won seven Academy Awards in 1970, any sequel to
> thee one and only PATTON will have some mighty big shoes to fill. ;)
>
> >What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
> >everyday.
>
> Gotta disagree there. Since he quit posting under his "Autocollimator"
> alter ego (but only AFTER I exposed him as the abusive, phony *******
> that unfortunately he has become) his postings as "ArtKramr" have
> actually improved just a titch.
>
> We all owe Kramer and his generation who fought in the Big One an
> eternal debt of gratitude, however, contrary to his twisted moral
> calculus, his serving in WW2 doesn't automatically give him carte
> blanche to blatently disrespect and dish out abuse to those of us
> who "weren't there."
>
>
>
>

[Dave Holford]

ArtKramr wrote:
>

>
> How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
>



Just out of idle curiosity, since this off topic thread seems likely to
continue, where and when did you lead men into combat? From what I have
seen of your postings your most common reference to leadership seems to
have been "I did as I was told."


Dave

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/31/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>> >From: (BUFDRVR)
>> >Date: 1/31/04 5:39 AM Pacific
>>
>> >Not by a long shot. In fact nowhere close. And it is disengenious to say
>> >>Patton
>> >>said it and then when challenged say, "Oh not that Patton". There is
>only
>> >ONE
>> >>PATTON.
>>
>> >What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
>> >everyday.
>>
>> Then don't open them. And you know where you can stick your personal
>insults.
>>
>> >eading men in Vietnam was a damn sight harder than leading men in the
>> >open fields of France and George S. Patton *III* is more qualified to
>>
>> >discuss
>> >leadership in Vietnam than his father, even had his father liv
>>
>> How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
>>
>> Patton turned an army moving East to the North and broke through the
>Bastogne
>> salient ending the Battle of the Bulge and bringing the last German thrust
>to
>> an end.
>
>Let me clue you Art, the ten days after the end of the bulge was the
>heaviest fighting there. The 101st didn't need saving.
>
>


So claim the 101st. In fact as one paratrooper was heard to say, " The Germans
have us surounded. Poor *******s" The truth is the 101st was running out of
ammo for their Garands and damned hungry as food was running low. Or so told
me a number of those guys after the battle. And they thanked the AAC much for
dropping supplies stuff. especially rifle ammo. We were in the air constantly
during those two weeks hitting panzers outside Bastogne and cutting roads and
bridges to stop the Germans from resupplying.
But I would never even suggest to anyone from the 101st that they needed our
help in any way. ((:->))



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> ArtKramr wrote:
> >
>
> >
> > How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
> >
>
>
>
> Just out of idle curiosity, since this off topic thread seems likely to
> continue, where and when did you lead men into combat? From what I have
> seen of your postings your most common reference to leadership seems to
> have been "I did as I was told."

Compared to BUFDRVR who, IIRC, has indeed "led men into combat" as an AC.
Art continues to baffle and dismay.

Brooks

>
>
> Dave

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 1/31/04 7:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <dDPSb.13478$Q_4.11152@okepread03>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> >What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
>> >everyday.
>>
>> Then don't open them.
>
>Why not increase your logic skills, and then we won't have to ignore you.
>
>> Something you know zero about so it your posts that are a pile of
>> pretenious pathetic crap
>
>You're living in a dream world. History doesn't stop because you have
>retired
>your brain. Patton Jr. would have more respect for modern warfare than you
>will
>ever know. His son (Patton III) was an honorable soldier, and Kerry is/was
>and
>always will be, a conniving politician and a first degree SOB. Kerry has
>zero
>chance of making it out of the liberal northeast, as he lacks the honor
>necessary to
>become something other than a pork-bearing Senator. Unlike Dole, he is
>unwilling to go for broke. He wants to be President, but he'll hold-on to
>being
>a pork-Senator in case he loses (and he will lose).
>
>

Is the information you are posting from your personal combat experiences? And
when did you say you were going to start ignoring me?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 1/31/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>> ArtKramr wrote:
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Just out of idle curiosity, since this off topic thread seems likely to
>> continue, where and when did you lead men into combat? From what I have
>> seen of your postings your most common reference to leadership seems to
>> have been "I did as I was told."
>
>Compared to BUFDRVR who, IIRC, has indeed "led men into combat" as an AC.
>Art continues to baffle and dismay.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Dave
>
>

Since you did nothing you are out of the loop.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >From: "S. Sampson"
> >Date: 1/31/04 7:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <dDPSb.13478$Q_4.11152@okepread03>
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote
> >>
> >> >What a crock !! You know Art, your posts look more and more pathetic
> >> >everyday.
> >>
> >> Then don't open them.
> >
> >Why not increase your logic skills, and then we won't have to ignore you.
> >
> >> Something you know zero about so it your posts that are a pile of
> >> pretenious pathetic crap
> >
> >You're living in a dream world. History doesn't stop because you have
> >retired
> >your brain. Patton Jr. would have more respect for modern warfare than
you
> >will
> >ever know. His son (Patton III) was an honorable soldier, and Kerry
is/was
> >and
> >always will be, a conniving politician and a first degree SOB. Kerry has
> >zero
> >chance of making it out of the liberal northeast, as he lacks the honor
> >necessary to
> >become something other than a pork-bearing Senator. Unlike Dole, he is
> >unwilling to go for broke. He wants to be President, but he'll hold-on
to
> >being
> >a pork-Senator in case he loses (and he will lose).
> >
> >
>
> Is the information you are posting from your personal combat experiences?

What an idiot. Is combat experience now required to correct your idiotic
notion that there is only one George S. Patton who acheived GO rank in the
US Army? Or is it required for an individual to judge Kerry's demonstrated
two-faced attitude towards these decorations? No, and no again. Maybe you
will extend it to only allowing combat veterans the right to vote? You don't
have a very good grasp of what you actually were fighting *for*, do you?

Brooks

<snip>

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 1/31/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >>
> >> ArtKramr wrote:
> >> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> > How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Just out of idle curiosity, since this off topic thread seems likely to
> >> continue, where and when did you lead men into combat? From what I have
> >> seen of your postings your most common reference to leadership seems to
> >> have been "I did as I was told."
> >
> >Compared to BUFDRVR who, IIRC, has indeed "led men into combat" as an AC.
> >Art continues to baffle and dismay.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Dave
> >
> >
>
> Since you did nothing you are out of the loop.

LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.

Brooks
>
> Arthur Kramer

[BUFDRVR]

>How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.

No? I'm glad I didn't screw up whatever it was I was doing because there would
have been problems had I suggested I was not leading anyone.....

>Patton turned an army moving East to the North and broke through the Bastogne

<snip> Blah, blah, blah. Great, now tell us why his son who served in Vietnam
would not have been more qualified than his father to comment on Kerry's
post-war actions.

> to resupply Bastogne from the air and the 344th was there in
>force. Something you know zero about

I've got two degrees in 20th Century European history so I believe I know more
than "zero" about Patton's acheivements in WW II. Oh, I'm sorry, if you didn't
actually fight in WW II, you know "zero", I forgot.

> so it your posts that are a pile of
>pretenious pathetic crap
>

Using that logic, so are all of yours not dealing with WW II, in fact, you are
unqualified to comment on Kerry's service in Vietnam because "you weren't
there". Better keep your mouth shut on Yugoslavia, Iraq and Afghanistan as
well. Being engaged by surface-to-air missiles, no comment from you. Jet
engines, no comment from Art. I could go on, but you get the point.

>PLONK

I doubt it....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>If you are so bothered by what he has to say, then don't read his posts.
>Can't get any simpler than that.

And if Art, or yourself, is so bothered by our attempt to keep Art's attitude
in check, you also are free to not read our retorts.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

Try not to respond to Kevin the noise generator, Art.

[BUFDRVR]

>I don't recall ever saying anything about being bothered.

Well, your post seemed to portray someone upset, I apologize if that was not
the case.

>Art has something concrete to
>offer through his personal experiences.

I agree, however when he intentionally besmirches the service of anyone outside
of the European Theater 1942-1946, it diminishes anything worthy he might have
to say.

>but the fact remains, "he was there" and we were not!

Yeah, we all know, Art will never let you forget it. The problem is, Art thinks
his personal experience trumps anyone else on this ng, or any source they may
offer. Its clear Art has done very little research into the CBO as he is unable
to discuss, with any depth, any of the issues. Any discussion with Art, usually
ends up with; "well you're wrong because I was there", which doesn't work.
Someday someone will write a good book on Operation IRAQI FREEDOM and I'll be
the first one in line to buy it, because "I was there" meant that I was busy
24/7 and that one month of my life is a complete blur. Unfortunately for Art,
he can't admit that decades of research are more relevant than "I was there".

>I meant to ask you if you ever came across a BUFF driver by the name of Gary
>Lundberg.

Hmm, PCS'd to KMIB in 1997? The name doesn't ring a bell, I'll have to ask a
BUFF RN I work with who was stationed at Minot.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Is the information you are posting from your personal combat experiences?

So, you're saying you have a right to be stupid because you went to a war?

[Moose]

Hi BUFDRVR

I don't recall ever saying anything about being bothered. Actually I find
it for the most part, highly entertaining. Nothing anyone says or does is
going to change Art's opnions, so why bother? Unlike some nameless
pretendtobes and wannabes who frequent RAM, Art has something concrete to
offer through his personal experiences. I do not always agree with Art.
Sure he can be casutic and his pig headedness just a bit too much to handle
at times, but the fact remains, "he was there" and we were not! Even if f
you ignore everything he says about post-war military aviation, Art still
makes a valuable contribution to this site.

I meant to ask you if you ever came across a BUFF driver by the name of Gary
Lundberg. We served in the same unit together (722nd SUS) seven years ago.
I lost track of him after he PCS'd to Minot.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 1/31/04 12:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
>Try not to respond to Kevin the noise generator, Art.
>
>

And that's about all he does.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 1/31/04 11:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >Date: 1/31/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> ArtKramr wrote:
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Just out of idle curiosity, since this off topic thread seems likely to
>> >> continue, where and when did you lead men into combat? From what I have
>> >> seen of your postings your most common reference to leadership seems to
>> >> have been "I did as I was told."
>> >
>> >Compared to BUFDRVR who, IIRC, has indeed "led men into combat" as an AC.
>> >Art continues to baffle and dismay.
>> >
>> >Brooks
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Dave
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Since you did nothing you are out of the loop.
>
>LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.
>
>Brooks
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>

It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us about
your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Moose"
>Date: 1/31/04 2:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Hi
>
> Most of you who are dumping on Art have been reading his postings for some
>time now. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
>If you are so bothered by what he has to say, then don't read his posts.
>Can't get any simpler than that.

The one thing that drives me up a wall and causes me to lose my temper is when
I get lectured on "what it was really like up there" by guys who never flew
anything and never fired a shot in anger.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving.

You read that on the back of your laxative?

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> The one thing that drives me up a wall and causes me to lose my temper is when
> I get lectured on "what it was really like up there" by guys who never flew
> anything and never fired a shot in anger.

Then you say something stupid, like General Patton III never existed.

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >From: "Moose"
> >Date: 1/31/04 2:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Hi
> >
> > Most of you who are dumping on Art have been reading his postings for
some
> >time now. Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
> >If you are so bothered by what he has to say, then don't read his posts.
> >Can't get any simpler than that.
>
> The one thing that drives me up a wall and causes me to lose my temper is
when
> I get lectured on "what it was really like up there" by guys who never
flew
> anything and never fired a shot in anger.

Umm, you also dump on people who have "been there" and fired shots in anger.
Does the word hypocrit ring a bell, Art?

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 1/31/04 11:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> >Date: 1/31/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> ArtKramr wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Just out of idle curiosity, since this off topic thread seems likely
to
> >> >> continue, where and when did you lead men into combat? From what I
have
> >> >> seen of your postings your most common reference to leadership seems
to
> >> >> have been "I did as I was told."
> >> >
> >> >Compared to BUFDRVR who, IIRC, has indeed "led men into combat" as an
AC.
> >> >Art continues to baffle and dismay.
> >> >
> >> >Brooks
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Dave
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Since you did nothing you are out of the loop.
> >
> >LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.
> >
> >Brooks
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
>
> It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us
about
> your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.

The only military duty I ever did in Ohio was to serve as the OIC of the
burial detail for a young soldier from the 3rd Ranger Battalion who had
wrapped his car around a telephone pole, leaving behind his wife pregnant
with their first (only) child. You do pick lousy examples for your snide and
off-target barbs, don't you? You are one sad sack of fecal matter,
regardless of your service during WWII.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 1/31/04 12:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >Try not to respond to Kevin the noise generator, Art.
> >
> >
>
> And that's about all he does.

Art and the Tarvernaut...a match made in heaven. 'nuff said.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"Moose" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

> Sure he can be casutic and his pig headedness just a bit too much to
handle
> at times, but the fact remains, "he was there" and we were not!

But Art has made a habit of not only extolling his "I was there" crap, but
has gone so far as to claim that others who were elsewhere following the
orders they were given somehow don't rate the same level of respect that he
claims to deserve. In the end it gets rather disgusting, and I keep
wondering if ol' Art did not have to have an escort with him when he dropped
by the maintenance, supply, etc., areas, where those "less equal pigs" would
like as not have left him needing dentures while he was still learning to
shave had he been expressing the kind of crap regarding their service that
he has in this NG over the past few years. Maybe if they had been able to do
so then he might not be the self-centered SOB that he has turned out to be.

Even if f
> you ignore everything he says about post-war military aviation, Art still
> makes a valuable contribution to this site.

At one time long, long ago I agreed with you. In fact, one of my first posts
to this NG was offered in his defense--how naive I was! Even his WWII info
is questionable, since he has also assured us that his unit *never* missed a
target (one hell of an exploit for a bomber unit during that war--my
father's outfit could not claim that much, and in reality no unit could),
that the CEP for their bombs rivaled that of our current PGM's, etc. He
starts an OT thread on day, then climbs on his high horse the next day and
bemoans OT threads...and immediately starts *another* OT thread the day
after that. All in all, he has turned into a bitter little man who in his
mind must belittle the efforts of all others in order to reinforce his own
suffering ego. I have been privaledged to have known quite a few WWII vets
(my own father was flying combat missions at the same time as ol' Art was),
and I hold every one of them in a hell of a lot more esteem than I do Art.
The last time Art got hammered by a number of folks in the group he cried
foul and said he was taking his ball and going home--no more RAM for him
(remindful of Nixon's little Checkers speech)! The group did not suffer much
during his (short) absense.

Brooks

<snip>

[George Shirley]

Kevin Brooks wrote:
> "Moose" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> <snip>
>
>>Sure he can be casutic and his pig headedness just a bit too much to
>
> handle
>
>>at times, but the fact remains, "he was there" and we were not!
>
>
> But Art has made a habit of not only extolling his "I was there" crap, but
> has gone so far as to claim that others who were elsewhere following the
> orders they were given somehow don't rate the same level of respect that he
> claims to deserve. In the end it gets rather disgusting, and I keep
> wondering if ol' Art did not have to have an escort with him when he dropped
> by the maintenance, supply, etc., areas, where those "less equal pigs" would
> like as not have left him needing dentures while he was still learning to
> shave had he been expressing the kind of crap regarding their service that
> he has in this NG over the past few years. Maybe if they had been able to do
> so then he might not be the self-centered SOB that he has turned out to be.
>
> Even if f
>
>>you ignore everything he says about post-war military aviation, Art still
>>makes a valuable contribution to this site.
>
>
> At one time long, long ago I agreed with you. In fact, one of my first posts
> to this NG was offered in his defense--how naive I was! Even his WWII info
> is questionable, since he has also assured us that his unit *never* missed a
> target (one hell of an exploit for a bomber unit during that war--my
> father's outfit could not claim that much, and in reality no unit could),
> that the CEP for their bombs rivaled that of our current PGM's, etc. He
> starts an OT thread on day, then climbs on his high horse the next day and
> bemoans OT threads...and immediately starts *another* OT thread the day
> after that. All in all, he has turned into a bitter little man who in his
> mind must belittle the efforts of all others in order to reinforce his own
> suffering ego. I have been privaledged to have known quite a few WWII vets
> (my own father was flying combat missions at the same time as ol' Art was),
> and I hold every one of them in a hell of a lot more esteem than I do Art.
> The last time Art got hammered by a number of folks in the group he cried
> foul and said he was taking his ball and going home--no more RAM for him
> (remindful of Nixon's little Checkers speech)! The group did not suffer much
> during his (short) absense.
>
> Brooks
>
> <snip>
>
>
>
Dammit Brooks, just killfile him and be done with it. Then you won't see
his posts and none of us will see your posts hollering at the old fart.

George

[Dave Holford]

ArtKramr wrote:



>
> The one thing that drives me up a wall and causes me to lose my temper is when
> I get lectured on by guys who never flew
> anything and never fired a shot in anger.
>
> Arthur Kramer



In all the years you have been entertaining me I don't recall anyone
posting an attempt to tell you "what it was really like up there". I do
recally you lecturing anyone who you think did not engage in combat in
WWII.

Dave

[Tarver Engineering]

"George Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:

> >
> Dammit Brooks, just killfile him and be done with it. Then you won't see
> his posts and none of us will see your posts hollering at the old fart.

You still see Kevin the noise generator's posts?

[S. Sampson]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Don't you wish you could say the same "crap" Bitter jealousy is not a pretty
> sight. Right wannabee?

Take your Geritol, boy.

[Kevin Brooks]

"George Shirley" > wrote in message
...
> Kevin Brooks wrote:
> > "Moose" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >>Sure he can be casutic and his pig headedness just a bit too much to
> >
> > handle
> >
> >>at times, but the fact remains, "he was there" and we were not!
> >
> >
> > But Art has made a habit of not only extolling his "I was there" crap,
but
> > has gone so far as to claim that others who were elsewhere following the
> > orders they were given somehow don't rate the same level of respect that
he
> > claims to deserve. In the end it gets rather disgusting, and I keep
> > wondering if ol' Art did not have to have an escort with him when he
dropped
> > by the maintenance, supply, etc., areas, where those "less equal pigs"
would
> > like as not have left him needing dentures while he was still learning
to
> > shave had he been expressing the kind of crap regarding their service
that
> > he has in this NG over the past few years. Maybe if they had been able
to do
> > so then he might not be the self-centered SOB that he has turned out to
be.
> >
> > Even if f
> >
> >>you ignore everything he says about post-war military aviation, Art
still
> >>makes a valuable contribution to this site.
> >
> >
> > At one time long, long ago I agreed with you. In fact, one of my first
posts
> > to this NG was offered in his defense--how naive I was! Even his WWII
info
> > is questionable, since he has also assured us that his unit *never*
missed a
> > target (one hell of an exploit for a bomber unit during that war--my
> > father's outfit could not claim that much, and in reality no unit
could),
> > that the CEP for their bombs rivaled that of our current PGM's, etc. He
> > starts an OT thread on day, then climbs on his high horse the next day
and
> > bemoans OT threads...and immediately starts *another* OT thread the day
> > after that. All in all, he has turned into a bitter little man who in
his
> > mind must belittle the efforts of all others in order to reinforce his
own
> > suffering ego. I have been privaledged to have known quite a few WWII
vets
> > (my own father was flying combat missions at the same time as ol' Art
was),
> > and I hold every one of them in a hell of a lot more esteem than I do
Art.
> > The last time Art got hammered by a number of folks in the group he
cried
> > foul and said he was taking his ball and going home--no more RAM for him
> > (remindful of Nixon's little Checkers speech)! The group did not suffer
much
> > during his (short) absense.
> >
> > Brooks
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
> >
> Dammit Brooks, just killfile him and be done with it. Then you won't see
> his posts and none of us will see your posts hollering at the old fart.

"Dammit George", if you want to killfile someone, including me, do so, and
be gone. OK?

Brooks

>
> George
>

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.

>It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us about
>your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.

Art, Kevin Brooks is often irritating but still well worth listening to.
It's not his fault that he wasn't sent to a war while he was serving; I
had the same problem and was quite glad of it. Willing to go if ordered,
but my mother raised no fools.

He's got a good and varied depth of experience: I can't confirm "he was
in location X with unit Y at time Z" but I _can_ confirm that he knows
what he's talking about on a good range of subjects. That's one reason
he and I argue a lot: we both know what we're talking about, we just see
it from different angles.




(Kevin, cut Art some slack. He's old, grumpy and often arrogant, but
also well worth listening to on the areas he knows. Or else put him in a
killfile and ignore him.)




--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Tarver Engineering]

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, ArtKramr
> > writes
> >>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
> >>From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >>LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.
>
> >It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us
about
> >your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.
>
> Art, Kevin Brooks is often irritating but still well worth listening to.

No.

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 1/31/04 9:06 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >Date: 1/31/04 11:28 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>> >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >> >Date: 1/31/04 10:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"Dave Holford" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ArtKramr wrote:
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > How how hell would you know., You never led men anywhere.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Just out of idle curiosity, since this off topic thread seems likely
>to
>> >> >> continue, where and when did you lead men into combat? From what I
>have
>> >> >> seen of your postings your most common reference to leadership seems
>to
>> >> >> have been "I did as I was told."
>> >> >
>> >> >Compared to BUFDRVR who, IIRC, has indeed "led men into combat" as an
>AC.
>> >> >Art continues to baffle and dismay.
>> >> >
>> >> >Brooks
>> >> >
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Dave
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> Since you did nothing you are out of the loop.
>> >
>> >LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.
>> >
>> >Brooks
>> >>
>> >> Arthur Kramer
>> >
>> >
>>
>> It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us
>about
>> your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.
>
>The only military duty I ever did in Ohio was to serve as the OIC of the
>burial detail for a young soldier from the 3rd Ranger Battalion who had
>wrapped his car around a telephone pole, leaving behind his wife pregnant
>with their first (only) child. You do pick lousy examples for your snide and
>off-target barbs, don't you? You are one sad sack of fecal matter,
>regardless of your service during WWII.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>

Then why do you read everything I write and hang on every word. Then answer at
length deeply involved in my every post as though you have been waiting for
each one?. Tell me wannabbee, why?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Paul J. Adam"
>Date: 2/1/04 1:04 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.
>
>>It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us
>about
>>your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.
>
>Art, Kevin Brooks is often irritating but still well worth listening to.
>It's not his fault that he wasn't sent to a war while he was serving; I
>had the same problem and was quite glad of it. Willing to go if ordered,
>but my mother raised no fools.
>
>He's got a good and varied depth of experience: I can't confirm "he was
>in location X with unit Y at time Z" but I _can_ confirm that he knows
>what he's talking about on a good range of subjects. That's one reason
>he and I argue a lot: we both know what we're talking about, we just see
>it from different angles.
>
>
>
>
>(Kevin, cut Art some slack. He's old, grumpy and often arrogant, but
>also well worth listening to on the areas he knows. Or else put him in a
>killfile and ignore him.)
>
>
>
>
>--
>When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
> W S Churchill
>
>Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk
>
But Paul you never try tell those who were there" what it was really like" do
you?. And you don't have a dirty mouth either, You are a gentleman and I like
to read your posts. , He is a slob,


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 1/31/04 9:40 PM Pacific Standard Time

>But Art has made a habit of not only extolling his "I was there" crap

Don't you wish you could say the same "crap" Bitter jealousy is not a pretty
sight. Right wannabee?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "S. Sampson"
>Date: 2/1/04 11:27 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <pIhTb.15635$Q_4.12206@okepread03>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> Don't you wish you could say the same "crap" Bitter jealousy is not a
>pretty
>> sight. Right wannabee?
>
>Take your Geritol, boy.
>
>
Good idea wanabee.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[George Z. Bush]

Paul J. Adam wrote:
> In message >, ArtKramr
> > writes
>>> Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>>> From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>> LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.
>
>> It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us about
>> your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.
>
> Art, Kevin Brooks is often irritating but still well worth listening to.
> It's not his fault that he wasn't sent to a war while he was serving; I
> had the same problem and was quite glad of it. Willing to go if ordered,
> but my mother raised no fools.
>
> He's got a good and varied depth of experience: I can't confirm "he was
> in location X with unit Y at time Z" but I _can_ confirm that he knows
> what he's talking about on a good range of subjects. That's one reason
> he and I argue a lot: we both know what we're talking about, we just see
> it from different angles.
>
>
>
>
> (Kevin, cut Art some slack. He's old, grumpy and often arrogant, but
> also well worth listening to on the areas he knows. Or else put him in a
> killfile and ignore him.)

I no longer talk to Art, but I thought I'd just mention in passing that my
brother never spent a day in uniform during WWII, although he could have passed
the physical if anyone asked him to take one. All he did was to help develop
the atomic bomb as part of the Manhattan Project. That's all.

George Z.

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
<snip>

> >>
> >> It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us
> >about
> >> your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.
> >
> >The only military duty I ever did in Ohio was to serve as the OIC of the
> >burial detail for a young soldier from the 3rd Ranger Battalion who had
> >wrapped his car around a telephone pole, leaving behind his wife pregnant
> >with their first (only) child. You do pick lousy examples for your snide
and
> >off-target barbs, don't you? You are one sad sack of fecal matter,
> >regardless of your service during WWII.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
>
> Then why do you read everything I write and hang on every word.

I don't. You kind of screwed up on the Ohio bit, huh?

Then answer at
> length deeply involved in my every post as though you have been waiting
for
> each one?.

I just respond to your more ridiculous assertions.

> Tell me wannabbee, why?

Art, believe me, the very last thing in the world I'd "wannabe" is you, or
anything remotely like you. For some unknown reason you think your WWII
service by itself makes you something others want to emulate, but it takes a
lot more than that. At your age you should know that.

Brooks

> Arthur Kramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 2/1/04 6:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
><snip>
>
>> >>
>> >> It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us
>> >about
>> >> your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.
>> >
>> >The only military duty I ever did in Ohio was to serve as the OIC of the
>> >burial detail for a young soldier from the 3rd Ranger Battalion who had
>> >wrapped his car around a telephone pole, leaving behind his wife pregnant
>> >with their first (only) child. You do pick lousy examples for your snide
>and
>> >off-target barbs, don't you? You are one sad sack of fecal matter,
>> >regardless of your service during WWII.
>> >
>> >Brooks
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Arthur Kramer
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Then why do you read everything I write and hang on every word.
>
>I don't. You kind of screwed up on the Ohio bit, huh?
>
>Then answer at
>> length deeply involved in my every post as though you have been waiting
>for
>> each one?.
>
>I just respond to your more ridiculous assertions.
>
>> Tell me wannabbee, why?
>
>Art, believe me, the very last thing in the world I'd "wannabe" is you, or
>anything remotely like you. For some unknown reason you think your WWII
>service by itself makes you something others want to emulate, but it takes a
>lot more than that. At your age you should know that.
>
>Brooks
>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>

Still answering my every post I see. (grin)
..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>From: "George Z. Bush"
>Date: 2/1/04 5:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Paul J. Adam wrote:
>> In message >, ArtKramr
>> > writes
>>>> Subject: Re: George Patton Jr is not George Patton III
>>>> From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>> LOL! I have served more years in uniform than you did. What a fool.
>>
>>> It's not how long you served. It is what you did while serving. Tell us
>about
>>> your 20 years behind a desk in Ohio.
>>
>> Art, Kevin Brooks is often irritating but still well worth listening to.
>> It's not his fault that he wasn't sent to a war while he was serving; I
>> had the same problem and was quite glad of it. Willing to go if ordered,
>> but my mother raised no fools.
>>
>> He's got a good and varied depth of experience: I can't confirm "he was
>> in location X with unit Y at time Z" but I _can_ confirm that he knows
>> what he's talking about on a good range of subjects. That's one reason
>> he and I argue a lot: we both know what we're talking about, we just see
>> it from different angles.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> (Kevin, cut Art some slack. He's old, grumpy and often arrogant, but
>> also well worth listening to on the areas he knows. Or else put him in a
>> killfile and ignore him.)
>
>I no longer talk to Art, but I thought I'd just mention in passing that my
>brother never spent a day in uniform during WWII, although he could have
>passed
>the physical if anyone asked him to take one. All he did was to help develop
>the atomic bomb as part of the Manhattan Project. That's all.
>
>George Z.
>
>
Good for your brother. But you get no credit for that.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[John Keeney]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
>
> I no longer talk to Art, but I thought I'd just mention in passing that my
> brother never spent a day in uniform during WWII, although he could have
passed
> the physical if anyone asked him to take one. All he did was to help
develop
> the atomic bomb as part of the Manhattan Project. That's all.

Well, there you go, George, he was just another cowardly slacker.
At least I'm sure some about RAM will see it that way.

[George Z. Bush]

John Keeney wrote:
> "George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I no longer talk to Art, but I thought I'd just mention in passing that my
>> brother never spent a day in uniform during WWII, although he could have
>> passed the physical if anyone asked him to take one. All he did was to help
>> develop the atomic bomb as part of the Manhattan Project. That's all.
>
> Well, there you go, George, he was just another cowardly slacker.
> At least I'm sure some about RAM will see it that way.

Yep. Cowardly slacker that he was, he probably did more for our country than
all of the blowhards populating this NG did put together. AAMOF, he probably
ought to get credit for saving a good number of their lives because the war
would have dragged on in the Far East and caused us large numbers of additional
casualties had that weapon not been developed and used.

George Z.