New Story on my Website

[ArtKramr]

THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY

I am only telling you this story because he passed away two years ago. I won't
reveal his identity. Let's call him Captain Johnson.
Captain Johnson's plane was badly hit over the target. He and his crew bailed
out. But Johnson never liked to keep his chute harness buckled tight. It gave
him cramps. So he wore it loose. On this occasion, as he bailed out he slipped
out of the harness and it tangled around his foot. That meant that he dangled
head down in his chute as he came to earth. He was badly shook up on landing
and hospitalized with severe cuts and bruises and a good deal of shock. After
he recovered he was returned to duty. At that time we needed 65 missions to go
home. He had 62, Only three more to go. But he refused to ever fly again. This
was serious business with a war on. He was sent to London and a staff of
psychiatrists worked on him, but he wouldn't fly. Then they said if he flew as
an observer on the lead aircraft he could get 1½ missions credit for each
mission, He could fly two and get credit for three, and go home. He still
refused to fly. What was to be done? You can't really court marshal a man with
62 missions for cowardice in face of the enemy. But he still wouldn't fly. But
everyone else in the 344th damn well had to fly. Feelings were running high.
The talk around the group was, "If I have to fly, then he has to fly. No free
lunch. Her had a bad bailout? Too frigging bad. We all have our troubles." My
pilot Paul Shorts said, "he was weak". When his name was brought up, the
universal response was disgust. Then one day he was gone. Fast forward 15 years
to a reunion of the 344th Bomb Group. Who should walk in but our old friend
Captain Johnson. No one spoke to him. Many just turned their backs on him. I
felt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and losing
good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us, but
after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
>
> I am only telling you this story because he passed away two years ago. I
won't
> reveal his identity. Let's call him Captain Johnson.

What would you think of a man that was a hero and then came home and called
you a murder, Art?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/3/04 1:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
>>
>> I am only telling you this story because he passed away two years ago. I
>won't
>> reveal his identity. Let's call him Captain Johnson.
>
>What would you think of a man that was a hero and then came home and called
>you a murder, Art?
>
>

I'm just telling you what happened. Draw any conslusions you wish.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/3/04 1:38 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
> >>
> >> I am only telling you this story because he passed away two years ago.
I
> >won't
> >> reveal his identity. Let's call him Captain Johnson.
> >
> >What would you think of a man that was a hero and then came home and
called
> >you a murder, Art?
> >
> >
>
> I'm just telling you what happened. Draw any conslusions you wish.

http://www.vietnamveteransagainstjohnkerry.com/

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
> THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
>Captain Johnson's plane was badly hit over the target. He and his crew bailed
>out. But Johnson never liked to keep his chute harness buckled tight. It gave
>him cramps. So he wore it loose. On this occasion, as he bailed out he slipped
>out of the harness and it tangled around his foot. That meant that he dangled
>head down in his chute as he came to earth. He was badly shook up on landing
>and hospitalized with severe cuts and bruises and a good deal of shock. After
>he recovered he was returned to duty. At that time we needed 65 missions to go
>home. He had 62, Only three more to go. But he refused to ever fly again. This
>was serious business with a war on. He was sent to London and a staff of
>psychiatrists worked on him, but he wouldn't fly. Then they said if he flew as
>an observer on the lead aircraft he could get 1½ missions credit for each
>mission, He could fly two and get credit for three, and go home. He still
>refused to fly. What was to be done? You can't really court marshal a man with
>62 missions for cowardice in face of the enemy.

This is a tough one and no mistake.

First up, calling someone with 62 combat missions including being shot
down "a coward" risks a certain terminological inexactitude.

Secondly, techniques have improved. Men do fail under pressure: but
we're better at fixing them. IIRC something like 40% of Israeli
battlefield casualties in the first days of the 1973 war were what could
be called "LMF" or similar in WW2: but almost all those troops were back
in combat within 48 hours. (Layman's understanding of a complex
technique: you don't stigmatise the guy as a coward, you treat him as a
casualty with the solid expectation that he's going to get better soon
and go back to help his friends who need his assistance ASAP. In other
words, get him back to his unit and have him finish his missions)


>But he still wouldn't fly. But
>everyone else in the 344th damn well had to fly.

Another reason this is a damn difficult question: does _anyone_ really
want to fly those last few missions before the end of the tour? No
personal experience, but I've read infantry memoirs from Vietnam of how
"short-timers" sometimes got very gunshy... nobody wanted to become a
KIA a week or two from their escape date. But I would get really angry
if I felt that a cadre of folk were getting the easy jobs while I took
the risks, simply because they'd been in-theatre longer than me.
Similarly I'm sure I'd get very jumpy in the last few days / last few
missions of a term-limited deployment.

Part of me says that this wolfpack reaction he recieved was very wrong.
But part of me understands it: when you're fighting fear yourself,
seeing others lose their battle and go apparently unpunished is almost
toxic. "If he can chicken out then why do _I_ have to go?" must be a
hellish hard argument for commanders to deal with when they're
continuing to send the rest of the squadron out.



Art, would it have been different if the guy had had these problems
after a dozen missions, been gone a couple of weeks, then come back to
fly the rest of his tour without notable heroism but in regulation
style? Was it that he refused to go, or that he refused to finish his
tour, that you and your comrades found so offensive?

What would it have taken for him to redeem an initial refusal to return?
Would his finishing his tour and flying three missions (or two as lead)
have been sufficient? If he dropped out at 62, would _anything_ else he
did have counted? (Wide open question... to give an extreme, if he'd
refused to fly in a Marauder ever again, but instead walked to
Berchtesgaden and personally cut Adolf Hitler's throat, would your unit
still have condemned him so fully?)

>Fast forward 15 years
>to a reunion of the 344th Bomb Group. Who should walk in but our old friend
>Captain Johnson. No one spoke to him. Many just turned their backs on him. I
>felt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and losing
>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us, but
>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.

From outside, I admit to finding this fascinating.

On the one hand, this is a man who has demonstrated a hell of a lot of
courage in the past.

On the other hand... when it ran out, he didn't have a reserve. (And I
have to admit, being shot down sounds uncomfortable enough, without
having to add a parachute descent by one ankle: never been shot down,
but I have done a jump with a properly-fitting 'chute and that was quite
enough excitement for peacetime at my own expense :) )

How could he have been kept as a useful asset? I'm not asking that he be
left feeling joyful about himself, but this is an experienced crewman
who at worst has a lot of hard-won lessons to teach trainees. (But then
how do you prevent '60 of 65 and my luck is running out - time to be a
Stateside instructor!' taking hold?)

It's an interesting collision of doctrine and reality... to me, anyway.
--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Dudley Henriques]

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, ArtKramr
> > writes
> > THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
> >Captain Johnson's plane was badly hit over the target. He and his crew
bailed
> >out. But Johnson never liked to keep his chute harness buckled tight. It
gave
> >him cramps. So he wore it loose. On this occasion, as he bailed out he
slipped
> >out of the harness and it tangled around his foot. That meant that he
dangled
> >head down in his chute as he came to earth. He was badly shook up on
landing
> >and hospitalized with severe cuts and bruises and a good deal of shock.
After
> >he recovered he was returned to duty. At that time we needed 65 missions
to go
> >home. He had 62, Only three more to go. But he refused to ever fly again.
This
> >was serious business with a war on. He was sent to London and a staff of
> >psychiatrists worked on him, but he wouldn't fly. Then they said if he
flew as
> >an observer on the lead aircraft he could get 1½ missions credit for each
> >mission, He could fly two and get credit for three, and go home. He still
> >refused to fly. What was to be done? You can't really court marshal a man
with
> >62 missions for cowardice in face of the enemy.
>
> This is a tough one and no mistake.
>
> First up, calling someone with 62 combat missions including being shot
> down "a coward" risks a certain terminological inexactitude.
>
> Secondly, techniques have improved. Men do fail under pressure: but
> we're better at fixing them. IIRC something like 40% of Israeli
> battlefield casualties in the first days of the 1973 war were what could
> be called "LMF" or similar in WW2: but almost all those troops were back
> in combat within 48 hours. (Layman's understanding of a complex
> technique: you don't stigmatise the guy as a coward, you treat him as a
> casualty with the solid expectation that he's going to get better soon
> and go back to help his friends who need his assistance ASAP. In other
> words, get him back to his unit and have him finish his missions)
>
>
> >But he still wouldn't fly. But
> >everyone else in the 344th damn well had to fly.
>
> Another reason this is a damn difficult question: does _anyone_ really
> want to fly those last few missions before the end of the tour? No
> personal experience, but I've read infantry memoirs from Vietnam of how
> "short-timers" sometimes got very gunshy... nobody wanted to become a
> KIA a week or two from their escape date. But I would get really angry
> if I felt that a cadre of folk were getting the easy jobs while I took
> the risks, simply because they'd been in-theatre longer than me.
> Similarly I'm sure I'd get very jumpy in the last few days / last few
> missions of a term-limited deployment.
>
> Part of me says that this wolfpack reaction he recieved was very wrong.
> But part of me understands it: when you're fighting fear yourself,
> seeing others lose their battle and go apparently unpunished is almost
> toxic. "If he can chicken out then why do _I_ have to go?" must be a
> hellish hard argument for commanders to deal with when they're
> continuing to send the rest of the squadron out.
>
>
>
> Art, would it have been different if the guy had had these problems
> after a dozen missions, been gone a couple of weeks, then come back to
> fly the rest of his tour without notable heroism but in regulation
> style? Was it that he refused to go, or that he refused to finish his
> tour, that you and your comrades found so offensive?
>
> What would it have taken for him to redeem an initial refusal to return?
> Would his finishing his tour and flying three missions (or two as lead)
> have been sufficient? If he dropped out at 62, would _anything_ else he
> did have counted? (Wide open question... to give an extreme, if he'd
> refused to fly in a Marauder ever again, but instead walked to
> Berchtesgaden and personally cut Adolf Hitler's throat, would your unit
> still have condemned him so fully?)
>
> >Fast forward 15 years
> >to a reunion of the 344th Bomb Group. Who should walk in but our old
friend
> >Captain Johnson. No one spoke to him. Many just turned their backs on
him. I
> >felt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and
losing
> >good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us,
but
> >after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.
>
> From outside, I admit to finding this fascinating.
>
> On the one hand, this is a man who has demonstrated a hell of a lot of
> courage in the past.
>
> On the other hand... when it ran out, he didn't have a reserve. (And I
> have to admit, being shot down sounds uncomfortable enough, without
> having to add a parachute descent by one ankle: never been shot down,
> but I have done a jump with a properly-fitting 'chute and that was quite
> enough excitement for peacetime at my own expense :) )
>
> How could he have been kept as a useful asset? I'm not asking that he be
> left feeling joyful about himself, but this is an experienced crewman
> who at worst has a lot of hard-won lessons to teach trainees. (But then
> how do you prevent '60 of 65 and my luck is running out - time to be a
> Stateside instructor!' taking hold?)
>
> It's an interesting collision of doctrine and reality... to me, anyway.

I believe this is an intelligent approach to this issue.

I wasn't going to answer this because when it comes to assessing something
like this; personal, and directly associated with combat, I usually defer to
those more qualified to speak. The closest analogy to why is the feeling I
get when someone who hasn't rolled an airplane inverted at 50 feet tries to
tell me how I should feel about someone who has and been killed. I get an
involuntary reaction when this happens. It's caused by a firm belief right
or wrong, that unless you have paid your dues, there are certain things in
life you're not really supposed to comment on. Something like this is
closely related to what I'm discussing here; I call it the "association
factor".
I can't comment directly from a combat point of view on something like this
as I haven't earned the right to have this opinion, but I am in the unusual
situation of having known many people who have "been there and done that",
and I can relate a sort of summation of what I believe they would say on
such an issue as this one.
I honestly believe that every man and woman who goes in harm's way in a war
situation has a limit for being able to handle fear, and stark terror; and
no two limits are the same. I believe the 8th called it a "maximum effort
factor" during the war. No one could define it of course. You were just
supposed to keep going! There are of course those who somehow manage to
traverse the whole thing while maintaining some degree of control, but for
most of those who go into combat, there is a limit to what the human mind
can absorb and still function normally. The macho folks will no doubt tell
you that no matter what these limits are, it's your solemn duty to swallow
whatever it is and continue on regardless. There's just too much at stake if
one person caves in. Besides, one can argue effectively.....why aren't the
others affected? They have to continue on, so what gives one person the
right to call it quits? I honestly don't have the answer to this. How do you
tell a crew that they have to continue living through the same horror that
one man can't take any more and understand the reasons why? How can you ask
men who have to continue on to understand the plight of one of their fellows
who no longer can take it? God! What a difficult thing to have to face.
I honestly don't see how anyone can call a man who has flown 62 missions a
coward. But where does this leave you if suddenly you can't take it any more
and the rest of the crews have to continue? Is it reasonable to expect these
men to understand that you have reached the absolute limit of your human
tolerance to fear and can't take a single step further? Considering that the
crews have to continue, it's asking a great deal of them to exhibit
understanding in these cases. It is however also reasonable, that the powers
that be in these cases, exhibit some higher degree of understanding with the
issue. A man who has lived through a personal experience as absolutely
terrifying as this pilot did has reached a personal limit of human endurance
to fear. He's over his personal edge for what his mind has allowed him to
accept as acceptable. He's a causality as sure as if he had taken a bullet.
The man has already demonstrated 62 times that he came to do the job. He in
fact, did the job...time and time again.
So what do you do with a man like "Johnson"? Do you write him off as a
coward simply because you have to go on and he says he can't? I can see in a
heartbeat that for those who have to continue, this would be a quick
call...and who's to blame these men? But does this address Johnson's problem
at all, or is it simply an understandable reaction from the other crews?
Hell, if I had to go, I'm sure I might have had the same reaction as these
crews did. Of course this assumes that I as an individual, hadn't reached my
personal limit for what I could take yet!!!! It might happen today....but it
hasn't happened YET!!!!
The guys I know would have reacted exactly as Art's associates did at the
time, but strangely enough, many I know would have also understood the
causality issue with Johnson, and would have agreed that treatment for him
was what was needed instead of admonishment by the group. I believe they
would have based this on the 62 missions Johnson had already flown.
In situations like this one, in a combat group, you will always have those
who see something like this only as a sign of cowardice. That's
understandable, but not necessarily right. No matter how you cut this guy's
record down, if he flew 62 missions, then had this unbelievable experience
and couldn't go on after that, I would say there's a serious question that
cowardice should be given a real hard long look as NOT being the prime
factor in this instance.
I believe that in many cases like this one, if some degree of care is given
at the medical/psychological level instead of shunning, the person involved
can be brought back. Of course, there's always a chance that once over this
kind of an edge, there's no return from whatever mental sanctuary the
affected person has entered into in order to escape. The easy road is to
write him off. The hard way is to take him off the line; work with him; and
try to bring him back.
As I say, I wasn't there and don't know the exact circumstances involved
with this case, but from what I've read in Art's post, I think I would have
given this guy a chance. 65 missions takes a lot of guts....as I'm sure Art
can relate to much better than I can!!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Tarver Engineering]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
nk.net...

<snip>
> I wasn't going to answer this because when it comes to assessing something
> like this; personal, and directly associated with combat, I usually defer
to
> those more qualified to speak.

There you go.

[Chris]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
>
> The talk around the group was, "If I have to fly, then he has to fly. No
free
> lunch. Her had a bad bailout? Too frigging bad. We all have our
troubles." My
> pilot Paul Shorts said, "he was weak". When his name was brought up, the
> universal response was disgust.

Everything in the 40's was in black and white, it seems, not just the
movies.

[Mike Marron]

> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:

[thoughtful responses from both Dudley and Paul Adams snipped]

>I wasn't going to answer this because when it comes to assessing something
>like this; personal, and directly associated with combat, I usually defer to
>those more qualified to speak.

That would kinda' defeat the whole purpose of posting the story on
Usenet , no? If Art wasn't looking for feedback, obviously he should
have posted his story on his website and simply left it at that.

As numerous posters (even including some whom have "seen the
elephant") have pointed out to Art time and time again, Art couldn't
possibly get any more mileage out of his "you weren't there so you
ain't ****" mantra.

The theme of Art's story was "courage" (as is his theme 99.9-percent
of the time). LOTS of people have demonstrated incredible courage --
courage that often goes unnoticed and garners no medals. And courage
doesn't always involve combat. A parent caring for a dying child is
an act of courage, as is speaking up against Art when he
gratuitously ridicules his fellow RAM listmembers simply because
they "weren't there."

As for the story itself, I agree with everything you and Paul said.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Paul J. Adam"
>Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific

>elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and
>losing
>>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us, but
>>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.


Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went back to combat
duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there too.You do
have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 2/3/04 4:51 PM Pacific

>As I say, I wasn't there and don't know the exact circumstances involved
>with this case, but from what I've read in Art's post, I think I would have
>given this guy a chance. 65 missions takes a lot of guts....as I'm sure Art
>can relate to much better than I can!!
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>
>

It doesn't take guts. It was what we were trained to do. It was what we
expected to do, every one of us. It was the norm. Not to do it was what was
unthinkable.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Chris"
>Date: 2/3/04 5:54 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id:

>Everything in the 40's was in black and white, it seems, not just the
>movies.
>

In a war you had to fight.End of story.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Rick Folkers]

The sad part of the internet is the ease with which one man can villify
another.

62 combat missions and shoot down are not done by a coward. You are
entitled
to your opinion, but it is only that.

I fail to see your experience, as valuable as it might be, allows you to
judge
other men.

Telling the history is wonderful and I thank you for those contributions. I,
for one,
can do without the pompous judgments.

Thanks.
"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> THE PILOT WHO WOULDN'T FLY
>
> I am only telling you this story because he passed away two years ago. I
won't
> reveal his identity. Let's call him Captain Johnson.
> Captain Johnson's plane was badly hit over the target. He and his crew
bailed
> out. But Johnson never liked to keep his chute harness buckled tight. It
gave
> him cramps. So he wore it loose. On this occasion, as he bailed out he
slipped
> out of the harness and it tangled around his foot. That meant that he
dangled
> head down in his chute as he came to earth. He was badly shook up on
landing
> and hospitalized with severe cuts and bruises and a good deal of shock.
After
> he recovered he was returned to duty. At that time we needed 65 missions
to go
> home. He had 62, Only three more to go. But he refused to ever fly again.
This
> was serious business with a war on. He was sent to London and a staff of
> psychiatrists worked on him, but he wouldn't fly. Then they said if he
flew as
> an observer on the lead aircraft he could get 1½ missions credit for each
> mission, He could fly two and get credit for three, and go home. He still
> refused to fly. What was to be done? You can't really court marshal a man
with
> 62 missions for cowardice in face of the enemy. But he still wouldn't fly.
But
> everyone else in the 344th damn well had to fly. Feelings were running
high.
> The talk around the group was, "If I have to fly, then he has to fly. No
free
> lunch. Her had a bad bailout? Too frigging bad. We all have our
troubles." My
> pilot Paul Shorts said, "he was weak". When his name was brought up, the
> universal response was disgust. Then one day he was gone. Fast forward 15
years
> to a reunion of the 344th Bomb Group. Who should walk in but our old
friend
> Captain Johnson. No one spoke to him. Many just turned their backs on him.
I
> felt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and
losing
> good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us,
but
> after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Rick Folkers"
>Date: 2/3/04 9:33 PM Pacific Standard Time

>he sad part of the internet is the ease with which one man can villify
>another.
>
>62 combat missions and shoot down are not done by a coward. You are
>entitled
>to your opinion, but it is only that.


It is not just one mans judjement, It is the judjegment of an entire Bomb Group
of 4 squadrons, About 2,000 men in all.


I fail to see your experience, as valuable as it might be, allows you to
>judge

Nor you. Least of all you who have no experience in the matter and no stake in
the issue.

>Telling the history is wonderful and I thank you for those contributions.

Thank you


>for one,
>can do without the pompous judgments.
>

You take one with the other. Or don't read any of it. I gave you a true picture
of what happened. Do with it what you will. And I don't particulary care one
way or another. Have you ever served in a Bomb Group in a combat zone?













































Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Rick Folkers]

No, but I have spent two tours in Vietnam. I don't
give special credance to your expience over mine.
And I don't give my combat experince the right
to pontificate about a veteran who flew 62 combat
missions. Get over yourself.


"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >From: "Rick Folkers"
> >Date: 2/3/04 9:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >he sad part of the internet is the ease with which one man can villify
> >another.
> >
> >62 combat missions and shoot down are not done by a coward. You are
> >entitled
> >to your opinion, but it is only that.
>
>
> It is not just one mans judjement, It is the judjegment of an entire Bomb
Group
> of 4 squadrons, About 2,000 men in all.
>
>
> I fail to see your experience, as valuable as it might be, allows you to
> >judge
>
> Nor you. Least of all you who have no experience in the matter and no
stake in
> the issue.
>
> >Telling the history is wonderful and I thank you for those contributions.
>
> Thank you
>
>
> >for one,
> >can do without the pompous judgments.
> >
>
> You take one with the other. Or don't read any of it. I gave you a true
picture
> of what happened. Do with it what you will. And I don't particulary care
one
> way or another. Have you ever served in a Bomb Group in a combat zone?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Richard]

I suspect Art has felt guilty about his behaviour towards a war hero and his
posting was an apology.


"Rick Folkers" > wrote in message
...
> No, but I have spent two tours in Vietnam. I don't
> give special credance to your expience over mine.
> And I don't give my combat experince the right
> to pontificate about a veteran who flew 62 combat
> missions. Get over yourself.
>
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> > >From: "Rick Folkers"
> > >Date: 2/3/04 9:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >
> > >he sad part of the internet is the ease with which one man can villify
> > >another.
> > >
> > >62 combat missions and shoot down are not done by a coward. You are
> > >entitled
> > >to your opinion, but it is only that.
> >
> >
> > It is not just one mans judjement, It is the judjegment of an entire
Bomb
> Group
> > of 4 squadrons, About 2,000 men in all.
> >
> >
> > I fail to see your experience, as valuable as it might be, allows you to
> > >judge
> >
> > Nor you. Least of all you who have no experience in the matter and no
> stake in
> > the issue.
> >
> > >Telling the history is wonderful and I thank you for those
contributions.
> >
> > Thank you
> >
> >
> > >for one,
> > >can do without the pompous judgments.
> > >
> >
> > You take one with the other. Or don't read any of it. I gave you a true
> picture
> > of what happened. Do with it what you will. And I don't particulary
care
> one
> > way or another. Have you ever served in a Bomb Group in a combat zone?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Arthur Kramer
> > 344th BG 494th BS
> > England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> > Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> > http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
> >
>
>

[John Keeney]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
>
> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and
> >losing
> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us,
but
> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.
>
>
> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went back to
combat
> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there too.You
do
> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.

Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.

Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that the
parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely to
slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "John Keeney"
>Date: 2/4/04 12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
>> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
>>
>> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and
>> >losing
>> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us,
>but
>> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.
>>
>>
>> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went back to
>combat
>> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there too.You
>do
>> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.
>
>Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
>though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
>screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.
>
>Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that the
>parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely to
>slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.
>
>

Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery crash,
recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing artificial legs?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Richard" rlmccannathotmail.com

> suspect Art has felt guilty about his behaviour towards a war hero and his
>posting was an apology.
>
>

We all felt fear But we kept it in a box and kept going. When he let his fear
come out of the box he showed us what might be the worst in all of us, and we
hated him for showing us that. Fear is contagious and spreads like wildfire.
Fear must be nipped in the bud, pushed out of sigh and dealt with harshly.. Did
I feel sorry for him. Yes to some degree. But I was in the minority. The vast
majority of the group wouldn't give him an inch. But after all, we were flying,
he wasn't. When one aircrew went down one guy who lost a best friend on that
mission said that if he had the chance he would blow Johnson's brains out, and
I think he really might have. Johnson never showed up at another reunion again.
Sad for all concerned.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >From: "John Keeney"
> >Date: 2/4/04 12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
> >> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
> >>
> >> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany
and
> >> >losing
> >> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with
us,
> >but
> >> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of
us.
> >>
> >>
> >> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went back to
> >combat
> >> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there
too.You
> >do
> >> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.
> >
> >Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
> >though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
> >screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.
> >
> >Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that the
> >parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely to
> >slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.
> >
> >
>
> Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery crash,
> recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing artificial legs?

Yes there was, and it was my pleasure to have known him for many years.
Douglas Bader.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 2/4/04 6:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: et>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>> >From: "John Keeney"
>> >Date: 2/4/04 12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>> >> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
>> >> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
>> >>
>> >> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany
>and
>> >> >losing
>> >> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with
>us,
>> >but
>> >> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of
>us.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went back to
>> >combat
>> >> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there
>too.You
>> >do
>> >> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.
>> >
>> >Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
>> >though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
>> >screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.
>> >
>> >Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that the
>> >parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely to
>> >slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.
>> >
>> >
>>
>> Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery crash,
>> recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing artificial legs?
>
>Yes there was, and it was my pleasure to have known him for many years.
>Douglas Bader.
>
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship



There were men who bounced back no matter what, and then there were those that
didn't. Bader's courage and determination was a lesson for all of us. A man I
would have been proud to have known.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote:

>>Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery crash,
>>recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing artificial legs?

>Yes there was, and it was my pleasure to have known him for many years.
>Douglas Bader.

And there was also Dick Bolsted, my Dad's best friend who was shot
down over N. Vietnam in his A-1E and spent 6-7 YEARS in the Hanoi
Hilton. When he was finally released from prison in 1973, Bolsted
later went on to assume command of one of the first new F-16 squadrons
in the USAF inventory. With all due respect to Bader, losing both legs
is *nothing* compared to surviving unimaginable torture for 6-7 years
in the Hanoi Hilton.

[Rick Folkers]

A post that indicated more compassion and human emotions than the
other. Thanks for that.


"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >From: "Richard" rlmccannathotmail.com
>
> > suspect Art has felt guilty about his behaviour towards a war hero and
his
> >posting was an apology.
> >
> >
>
> We all felt fear But we kept it in a box and kept going. When he let his
fear
> come out of the box he showed us what might be the worst in all of us,
and we
> hated him for showing us that. Fear is contagious and spreads like
wildfire.
> Fear must be nipped in the bud, pushed out of sigh and dealt with
harshly.. Did
> I feel sorry for him. Yes to some degree. But I was in the minority. The
vast
> majority of the group wouldn't give him an inch. But after all, we were
flying,
> he wasn't. When one aircrew went down one guy who lost a best friend on
that
> mission said that if he had the chance he would blow Johnson's brains out,
and
> I think he really might have. Johnson never showed up at another reunion
again.
> Sad for all concerned.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> >Date: 2/4/04 6:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: et>
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >> >From: "John Keeney"
> >> >Date: 2/4/04 12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> >> >> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
> >> >> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
> >> >>
> >> >> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany
> >and
> >> >> >losing
> >> >> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew
with
> >us,
> >> >but
> >> >> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one
of
> >us.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went back
to
> >> >combat
> >> >> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there
> >too.You
> >> >do
> >> >> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.
> >> >
> >> >Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
> >> >though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
> >> >screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.
> >> >
> >> >Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that the
> >> >parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely to
> >> >slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery crash,
> >> recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing artificial
legs?
> >
> >Yes there was, and it was my pleasure to have known him for many years.
> >Douglas Bader.
> >
> >Dudley Henriques
> >International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>
>
>
> There were men who bounced back no matter what, and then there were those
that
> didn't. Bader's courage and determination was a lesson for all of us. A
man I
> would have been proud to have known.

What endeared Douglas to me had nothing to do with his heroics in the air,
which were considerable to say the least. Many don't know this about him
because he did it quietly, but Douglas was singularly responsible for
bettering the lives of countless severely handicapped children and adults;
people with whom he spent untold hours of his time helping through his
unending wit and dominating personality. I can't even begin to count the
lives he changed by stumping into a paraplegic ward somewhere or anywhere,
then jumping up on a table and dancing on his tin legs!
He turned despair into hope. Then he stuck around and turned hope into
reality for these people.
Douglas was the epitome of what is possible through sheer guts and will. I
miss our late night inter-country phone conversations between Maryland and
Petersham Mews while we "re-fought" the Battle of Britain as I drove him
absolutely nuts eating my corn flakes dry from a cup; crackling in his ears
through the line as we
attempted to get "Keith Park and Lee Mallory together in the same room again
without shouting at each other!!!" :-)
I guess there are many ways to remember a man like Douglas. Certainly his
courage is one of them. Personally, for me, his memory goes much deeper than
that. Of all his many attributes, what will last in memory for me was his
unselfish love for his fellow man.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Joe Osman]

Geoffrey Perret in his popular history of the Army Air Forces in World War
II - "Winged Victory" mentions several times that entire aircrews talked
openly about landing in Sweden or Switzerland just to get out of the war.
I'm sure there were less "gung ho" squadrons and wings than Art's where they
thought that they could get away with such talk. At the end of the war in
the ETO, there was about a division's worth of deserters in the US Army. I
wonder if some crews actually did desert in this way, and if they did, what
happened to them after the war.

Joe





-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

[Ron]

>And there was also Dick Bolsted, my Dad's best friend who was shot
>down over N. Vietnam in his A-1E and spent 6-7 YEARS in the Hanoi
>Hilton. When he was finally released from prison in 1973, Bolsted
>later went on to assume command of one of the first new F-16 squadrons
>in the USAF inventory. With all due respect to Bader, losing both legs
>is *nothing* compared to surviving unimaginable torture for 6-7 years
>in the Hanoi Hilton.

But there is not really a need to compare one, or pit what happened to one,
against the other. We can admire BOTH, and countless others, for what they
endured, and how they overcome.


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...

>With all due respect to Bader, losing both legs
> is *nothing* compared to surviving unimaginable torture for 6-7 years
> in the Hanoi Hilton.

Mike;

It's possible to make a point about the severity of the Hanoi Hilton without
this unfortunate comparison.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>With all due respect to Bader, losing both legs
>>is *nothing* compared to surviving unimaginable torture for 6-7 years
>>in the Hanoi Hilton.

>Mike;

>It's possible to make a point about the severity of the Hanoi Hilton without
>this unfortunate comparison.

Point taken. My apologies if I offended.

[Mike Marron]

(Ron) wrote:
>>Mike Marron > wrote:

>>And there was also Dick Bolsted, my Dad's best friend who was shot
>>down over N. Vietnam in his A-1E and spent 6-7 YEARS in the Hanoi
>>Hilton. When he was finally released from prison in 1973, Bolsted
>>later went on to assume command of one of the first new F-16 squadrons
>>in the USAF inventory. With all due respect to Bader, losing both legs
>>is *nothing* compared to surviving unimaginable torture for 6-7 years
>>in the Hanoi Hilton.

>But there is not really a need to compare one, or pit what happened to one,
>against the other. We can admire BOTH, and countless others, for what they
>endured, and how they overcome.

For the same reason you should admire "Captain Johnson," NOT Kramer!

[Mike Marron]

>"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:

>What endeared Douglas to me had nothing to do with his heroics in the air,
>which were considerable to say the least. Many don't know this about him
>because he did it quietly, but Douglas was singularly responsible for
>bettering the lives of countless severely handicapped children and adults;
>people with whom he spent untold hours of his time helping through his
>unending wit and dominating personality. I can't even begin to count the
>lives he changed by stumping into a paraplegic ward somewhere or anywhere,
>then jumping up on a table and dancing on his tin legs!
>He turned despair into hope. Then he stuck around and turned hope into
>reality for these people.

Interesting bit there about Bader (I've always had enormous respect
for Shriners and Masons who give out free prosthesis to handicapped
children and adults).

I don't know if he coined it or not and feel free to correct me if I'm
wrong, but one of the things about Bader I like was his saying,
"illigitimi non carborundum" (e.g: don't let the *******s grind ya'
down).

;)

[B2431]

>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 2/4/2004 6:23 AM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>>From: "John Keeney"
>>Date: 2/4/04 12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>>> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
>>> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
>>>
>>> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over Germany and
>>> >losing
>>> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew with us,
>>but
>>> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be one of us.
>>>
>>>
>>> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went back to
>>combat
>>> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there too.You
>>do
>>> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.
>>
>>Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
>>though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
>>screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.
>>
>>Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that the
>>parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely to
>>slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.
>>
>>
>
> Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery crash,
>recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing artificial legs?
>
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Douglas Bader.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Mike Marron

<snip>

>I don't know if he coined it or not and feel free to correct me if I'm
>wrong, but one of the things about Bader I like was his saying,
>"illigitimi non carborundum" (e.g: don't let the *******s grind ya'
>down).
>
My latin is a bit weak, but I think it's "illigitimus non tatum carborundum"

[Brian Colwell]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> > >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> > >Date: 2/4/04 6:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: et>
> > >
> > >
> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> > >> >From: "John Keeney"
> > >> >Date: 2/4/04 12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >Message-id: >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> > >> >> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
> > >> >> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
> > >> >>
> > >> >> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over
Germany
> > >and
> > >> >> >losing
> > >> >> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He flew
> with
> > >us,
> > >> >but
> > >> >> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be
one
> of
> > >us.
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went
back
> to
> > >> >combat
> > >> >> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm there
> > >too.You
> > >> >do
> > >> >> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.
> > >> >
> > >> >Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
> > >> >though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
> > >> >screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.
> > >> >
> > >> >Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that
the
> > >> >parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely
to
> > >> >slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery
crash,
> > >> recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing artificial
> legs?
> > >
> > >Yes there was, and it was my pleasure to have known him for many years.
> > >Douglas Bader.
> > >
> > >Dudley Henriques
> > >International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> >
> >
> >
> > There were men who bounced back no matter what, and then there were
those
> that
> > didn't. Bader's courage and determination was a lesson for all of us. A
> man I
> > would have been proud to have known.
>
> What endeared Douglas to me had nothing to do with his heroics in the air,
> which were considerable to say the least. Many don't know this about him
> because he did it quietly, but Douglas was singularly responsible for
> bettering the lives of countless severely handicapped children and adults;
> people with whom he spent untold hours of his time helping through his
> unending wit and dominating personality. I can't even begin to count the
> lives he changed by stumping into a paraplegic ward somewhere or anywhere,
> then jumping up on a table and dancing on his tin legs!
> He turned despair into hope. Then he stuck around and turned hope into
> reality for these people.
> Douglas was the epitome of what is possible through sheer guts and will. I
> miss our late night inter-country phone conversations between Maryland and
> Petersham Mews while we "re-fought" the Battle of Britain as I drove him
> absolutely nuts eating my corn flakes dry from a cup; crackling in his
ears
> through the line as we
> attempted to get "Keith Park and Lee Mallory together in the same room
again
> without shouting at each other!!!" :-)
> I guess there are many ways to remember a man like Douglas. Certainly his
> courage is one of them. Personally, for me, his memory goes much deeper
than
> that. Of all his many attributes, what will last in memory for me was his
> unselfish love for his fellow man.
> Dudley Henriques
> International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
> For personal email, please replace
> the z's with e's.
> dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

I guess you know he was shot down and spent time in a POW camp, And in one
of the very few examples of compassion during WW2 ( and maybe respect) The
Germans gave safe passage to an RAF plane to drop a pair of artificial legs,
as his had been damaged when he baled out !

Regards, BMC
>
>
>

[Brian Colwell]

"Brian Colwell" > wrote in message
news:zQeUb.403484$ts4.258352@pd7tw3no...
>
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> >
> > "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> > > >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> > > >Date: 2/4/04 6:22 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > > >Message-id: et>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> > > >> >From: "John Keeney"
> > > >> >Date: 2/4/04 12:44 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > > >> >Message-id: >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > > >> ...
> > > >> >> >Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
> > > >> >> >From: "Paul J. Adam"
> > > >> >> >Date: 2/3/04 3:21 PM Pacific
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> >elt sorry for him. But while we were risking our necks over
> Germany
> > > >and
> > > >> >> >losing
> > > >> >> >>good men, he was curled up and whining under a blanket. He
flew
> > with
> > > >us,
> > > >> >but
> > > >> >> >>after that not a single man in the 344th considered him to be
> one
> > of
> > > >us.
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> Remember that thousands of men were wounded, recovered and went
> back
> > to
> > > >> >combat
> > > >> >> duty. It was the norm. Same in the infantry. It was the norm
there
> > > >too.You
> > > >> >do
> > > >> >> have some options in war, But not fighting isn't one of them.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Hanging by your ankle as you descend by parachute is not the norm
> > > >> >though and it really helps some times when you have the chance to
> > > >> >screw your courage up to face horrible but predictable things.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Jesus, between the blood rushing to his head, the realization that
> the
> > > >> >parachute harness was not designed to hold like that and is likely
> to
> > > >> >slip off at any second, it's wonder he ever stopped screaming.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >>
> > > >> Wasn't there an RAF fighter pilot who lost both legs in a fiery
> crash,
> > > >> recovered and went back to flying combat missions wearing
artificial
> > legs?
> > > >
> > > >Yes there was, and it was my pleasure to have known him for many
years.
> > > >Douglas Bader.
> > > >
> > > >Dudley Henriques
> > > >International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > There were men who bounced back no matter what, and then there were
> those
> > that
> > > didn't. Bader's courage and determination was a lesson for all of us.
A
> > man I
> > > would have been proud to have known.
> >
> > What endeared Douglas to me had nothing to do with his heroics in the
air,
> > which were considerable to say the least. Many don't know this about him
> > because he did it quietly, but Douglas was singularly responsible for
> > bettering the lives of countless severely handicapped children and
adults;
> > people with whom he spent untold hours of his time helping through his
> > unending wit and dominating personality. I can't even begin to count the
> > lives he changed by stumping into a paraplegic ward somewhere or
anywhere,
> > then jumping up on a table and dancing on his tin legs!
> > He turned despair into hope. Then he stuck around and turned hope into
> > reality for these people.
> > Douglas was the epitome of what is possible through sheer guts and will.
I
> > miss our late night inter-country phone conversations between Maryland
and
> > Petersham Mews while we "re-fought" the Battle of Britain as I drove him
> > absolutely nuts eating my corn flakes dry from a cup; crackling in his
> ears
> > through the line as we
> > attempted to get "Keith Park and Lee Mallory together in the same room
> again
> > without shouting at each other!!!" :-)
> > I guess there are many ways to remember a man like Douglas. Certainly
his
> > courage is one of them. Personally, for me, his memory goes much deeper
> than
> > that. Of all his many attributes, what will last in memory for me was
his
> > unselfish love for his fellow man.
> > Dudley Henriques
> > International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> > Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
> > For personal email, please replace
> > the z's with e's.
> > dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>
> I guess you know he was shot down and spent time in a POW camp, And in one
> of the very few examples of compassion during WW2 ( and maybe respect) The
> Germans gave safe passage to an RAF plane to drop a pair of artificial
legs,
> as his had been damaged when he baled out !
>
> Regards, BMC


Sorry, Correction , He wasn't shot down, it was a
air to air collision with a German a/c

BMC

[Keith Willshaw]

"Brian Colwell" > wrote in message
news:zQeUb.403484$ts4.258352@pd7tw3no...
>

>
> I guess you know he was shot down and spent time in a POW camp, And in one
> of the very few examples of compassion during WW2 ( and maybe respect) The
> Germans gave safe passage to an RAF plane to drop a pair of artificial
legs,
> as his had been damaged when he baled out !
>

As I recall he left one behind in the plane as it was trapped
in the wreckage of the controls. Of course being the man
he was he immediately tried to escape on his new legs.

Keith

[Brian Colwell]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Brian Colwell" > wrote in message
> news:zQeUb.403484$ts4.258352@pd7tw3no...
> >
>
> >
> > I guess you know he was shot down and spent time in a POW camp, And in
one
> > of the very few examples of compassion during WW2 ( and maybe respect)
The
> > Germans gave safe passage to an RAF plane to drop a pair of artificial
> legs,
> > as his had been damaged when he baled out !
> >
>
> As I recall he left one behind in the plane as it was trapped
> in the wreckage of the controls. Of course being the man
> he was he immediately tried to escape on his new legs.
>
> Keith
>
Thanks Keith, I remember reading about it, and the fact he had tried to
escape, and I believe they used to take his *legs* away at night !

BMC

[Dudley Henriques]

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Dudley Henriques" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >>With all due respect to Bader, losing both legs
> >>is *nothing* compared to surviving unimaginable torture for 6-7 years
> >>in the Hanoi Hilton.
>
> >Mike;
>
> >It's possible to make a point about the severity of the Hanoi Hilton
without
> >this unfortunate comparison.
>
> Point taken. My apologies if I offended.

No problem, and thank you for your response.
Dudley

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: "Joe Osman"
>Date: 2/4/04 8:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Geoffrey Perret in his popular history of the Army Air Forces in World War
>II - "Winged Victory" mentions several times that entire aircrews talked
>openly about landing in Sweden or Switzerland just to get out of the war.
>I'm sure there were less "gung ho" squadrons and wings than Art's where they
>thought that they could get away with such talk. At the end of the war in
>the ETO, there was about a division's worth of deserters in the US Army. I
>wonder if some crews actually did desert in this way, and if they did, what
>happened to them after the war.
>
>Joe
>

Go to my website and read "God bless St. Trond".

We always agreed that in case of no good aletrnate landing field if hit ,we
would just head back West and try to get as close to our lines as possible and
make our way back home by what ever means. But as we flew into Germany I always
was plotting emergency fields in case we got hit. Switzerland or Sweden was
never remotely a consideration. I think if any of our crew ever suggested such
a thing, we would have gotten rid of him.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Peter Twydell]

In article <zQeUb.403484$ts4.258352@pd7tw3no>, Brian Colwell
> writes
<snip>
>
>I guess you know he was shot down and spent time in a POW camp, And in one
>of the very few examples of compassion during WW2 ( and maybe respect) The
>Germans gave safe passage to an RAF plane to drop a pair of artificial legs,
>as his had been damaged when he baled out !
>
>Regards, BMC
>>
AFAIK the RAF refused the offer of safe passage, partly because it would
have been a propaganda coup for Goebbels, and dropped his new legs
during a routine bombing raid.

Bader always maintained he was involved in a collision, rather than
being shot down, but then he would have, wouldn't he?
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: New Story on my Website
>From: Peter Twydell
>Date: 2/11/04 12:57 PM Pacific Standard Time

>ader always maintained he was involved in a collision, rather than
>being shot down, but then he would have, wouldn't he?
>--
>Peter

I believe him. He earned the right to be beleived. The hard way.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Brian Colwell]

"Peter Twydell" > wrote in message
...
> In article <zQeUb.403484$ts4.258352@pd7tw3no>, Brian Colwell
> > writes
> <snip>
> >
> >I guess you know he was shot down and spent time in a POW camp, And in
one
> >of the very few examples of compassion during WW2 ( and maybe respect)
The
> >Germans gave safe passage to an RAF plane to drop a pair of artificial
legs,
> >as his had been damaged when he baled out !
> >
> >Regards, BMC
> >>
> AFAIK the RAF refused the offer of safe passage, partly because it would
> have been a propaganda coup for Goebbels, and dropped his new legs
> during a routine bombing raid.
>
> Bader always maintained he was involved in a collision, rather than
> being shot down, but then he would have, wouldn't he?
> --
> Peter
>
> Ying tong iddle-i po!

If you check, you will see I corrected my original post to the effect that
he bailed out after a collision with a German a/c

Regards, BMC

[Peter Twydell]

In article <qstXb.501404$ts4.75221@pd7tw3no>, Brian Colwell
> writes
>
>"Peter Twydell" > wrote in message
...
>> In article <zQeUb.403484$ts4.258352@pd7tw3no>, Brian Colwell
>> > writes
>> <snip>
>> >
>> >I guess you know he was shot down and spent time in a POW camp, And in
>one
>> >of the very few examples of compassion during WW2 ( and maybe respect)
>The
>> >Germans gave safe passage to an RAF plane to drop a pair of artificial
>legs,
>> >as his had been damaged when he baled out !
>> >
>> >Regards, BMC
>> >>
>> AFAIK the RAF refused the offer of safe passage, partly because it would
>> have been a propaganda coup for Goebbels, and dropped his new legs
>> during a routine bombing raid.
>>
>> Bader always maintained he was involved in a collision, rather than
>> being shot down, but then he would have, wouldn't he?
>> --
>> Peter
>>
>> Ying tong iddle-i po!
>
>If you check, you will see I corrected my original post to the effect that
>he bailed out after a collision with a German a/c
>
>Regards, BMC
>
>
Whoooosh! Read my post again. Bader said it was a collision - others
have claimed he was shot down. I'm not favouring one point of view or
the other, my point was that Bader would never have admitted being shot
down, it would have damaged his ego.

There's no doubt he was a courageous man and a very good pilot, but like
all of us, he had his faults. His overwhelming belief in himself was
partly to blame for his accident in the Bulldog - attempting a manoeuvre
that was known to be highly dangerous but doing it anyway in order to
show off. Typical scrum half.
--
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

[Marc Reeve]

Peter Twydell > wrote:
re: Douglas Bader
>
> There's no doubt he was a courageous man and a very good pilot, but like
> all of us, he had his faults. His overwhelming belief in himself was
> partly to blame for his accident in the Bulldog - attempting a manoeuvre
> that was known to be highly dangerous but doing it anyway in order to
> show off. Typical scrum half.

Typical pilot, in those days anyway.

Look at Jimmy Doolittle flying over the Andes with two broken legs.

-Marc
--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m