Keeping Me Out of Your Warbird?

[Stephen Harding]

Looking over recent photos of the P-38 "Glacier Girl", and reading
all ($$$) that was involved in its restoration, I was wondering...

What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?

I have read of some British and American pilots, shot down over
Nazi occupied Europe, stealing LW aircraft to make their escapes.
Obviously no "keys" required for startup.

Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

What about current military aircraft?


SMH

[MLenoch]

>Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
>keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
>one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

Cops at night patrol the airshow grounds plus, some have keys installed.
VL

[Mike Marron]

>Stephen Harding > wrote:

>Looking over recent photos of the P-38 "Glacier Girl", and reading
>all ($$$) that was involved in its restoration, I was wondering...

>What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
>and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
>of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
>runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
>Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?

>I have read of some British and American pilots, shot down over
>Nazi occupied Europe, stealing LW aircraft to make their escapes.
>Obviously no "keys" required for startup.

>Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
>keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
>one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?

>What about current military aircraft?

When was the last time you've strapped on a P-38 and took it up for
a spin? Even in the unlikely event that you've flown warbirds, the
operative word here is "proficiency."

As an aside, I often leave my bird unattended at major EAA airshows
(such as Airventure in Wisconsin or Sun 'n Fun in Florida).

While I'm gone, there's nothing stopping anyone from taking it up for
an unauthorized flight...

http://www.dcivideo.com/trikes/Tampa_Trike_Flying.wmv

But even if Yeager himself attempted to fly it without a checkout, it
would be tantamount to suicide!

[Dudley Henriques]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Looking over recent photos of the P-38 "Glacier Girl", and reading
> all ($$$) that was involved in its restoration, I was wondering...
>
> What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
> and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
> of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
> runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
> Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?
>
> I have read of some British and American pilots, shot down over
> Nazi occupied Europe, stealing LW aircraft to make their escapes.
> Obviously no "keys" required for startup.
>
> Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
> keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
> one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
>
> What about current military aircraft?
>
>
> SMH

In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly the
airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft specific
also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
cockpit....probably in the dark .
A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a hole in
the canopy track you can padlock. I never used one. Security was usually
supplied for me/ and/or the airplane was inside all the time.
Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was that
with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time worrying
about someone stealing the airplane.
There have been cases in the military of enlisted people "borrowing" an
aircraft for a joyride. I remember one incident back in the fifties when a
crew chief was taxi testing an F86D and decided on the spot to fly it. They
got him back down somehow and promptly arrested him. Some other idiot "stole
a B25 down at Keesler and got it into the air somehow. He lost an engine,
then tried a turn into his dead left engine at about 100kts. Needless to
say, he morted as the airplane went into the gulf off the beach at Biloxi.
Bottom line....it's possible......but considering the fact that the pilot
would first have to be current in type and motovated to steal the airplane;
the available window for potential would be theives is quite small I would
imagine.
Dudley

[Smartace11]

>Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
>First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly the
>airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft specific
>also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the

A maintenance troop stole a C-130 off the ramp at RAF Mildenhall. Got all four
started and managed to get ot off the ground. IIRC he was trying to get back
to the US to see his wife or girlfriend wh was leaving him. He ended up headed
the wrong direction and was shot down by fighters out of USAFE as the story
goes. Supposedly he grashed but there were pieces found with what looked to be
cannon hits.

We used to practice trying to steal F-4s from RAF Lakenheath. All it took was
a gullible crew chief to help with the start and then taxi off. Usually the
flightline chief realized there was a plane taxiing that wan't on the schedule
and then the sky cops were launched. Their instructions were to try to block
the plane with their vehicles and if that failed, to shoot the crew.

Unathorized people in the flightline got interesting treatment as well. Full
spread eagle on the ramp with an M-16 barrel poked in the ear. Happened once
to a doctor from the base hospital and his two yong daughters. I suspect they
still talk about their experience with daddy.

[Stephen Harding]

Dudley Henriques wrote:

> "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
>>Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
>>keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
>>one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
>>
>>What about current military aircraft?
>
> In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
> good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
> First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly the
> airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft specific
> also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
> cockpit....probably in the dark .
> A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
> most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.

Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.

Is basic flying of a WWII aircraft *really* that much more difficult than
a Cessna 152? We're not talking about doing loops, barrel rolls and split
S's. Just run the plane back to my secret hideout where I'll only look and
admire it as *my own*, as if a piece of art!

> A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
> case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a hole in
> the canopy track you can padlock. I never used one. Security was usually
> supplied for me/ and/or the airplane was inside all the time.

But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too challenging.
As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.

Still, you spend $1 million for your P-51, or, like Glacier Girl, something
like $4 million on the restoration, seems adding an ignition key to start
the thing wouldn't be too prohibitive (although you might lose the "Most
Faithful Restoration" Award as a result).

> Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was that
> with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time worrying
> about someone stealing the airplane.

I think aircraft theft in general is rather rare. But still, we're talking
about millions of dollars of value here.

> There have been cases in the military of enlisted people "borrowing" an
> aircraft for a joyride. I remember one incident back in the fifties when a
> crew chief was taxi testing an F86D and decided on the spot to fly it. They
> got him back down somehow and promptly arrested him. Some other idiot "stole
> a B25 down at Keesler and got it into the air somehow. He lost an engine,
> then tried a turn into his dead left engine at about 100kts. Needless to
> say, he morted as the airplane went into the gulf off the beach at Biloxi.
> Bottom line....it's possible......but considering the fact that the pilot
> would first have to be current in type and motovated to steal the airplane;
> the available window for potential would be theives is quite small I would
> imagine.

I suppose so. You could never fly it safely on your own after you
successfully stole it, since there aren't that many, and the sudden
appearance of a newly painted P-51 (and even more so the more rare
P-39, P-40 or P-38) would no doubt raise suspicions.

The thief would have to be the type that just wanted to possess something
rare and beautiful for himself, like a piece of art, where he gained
pleasure and satisfaction just looking at it (as opposed to spending
a bundle on insurance, oil, gas and maintenance per hour of operation).

I guess having a P-38 painted up with "Glacier Girl" in my yard as a lawn
ornament would probably attract attention.

Well there are lots of F-16's around! Could I grab one of those without
too much problem?


SMH

[Kevin Brooks]

"Smartace11" > wrote in message
...
> >Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
> >First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly
the
> >airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft
specific
> >also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
>
> A maintenance troop stole a C-130 off the ramp at RAF Mildenhall. Got all
four
> started and managed to get ot off the ground. IIRC he was trying to get
back
> to the US to see his wife or girlfriend wh was leaving him. He ended up
headed
> the wrong direction and was shot down by fighters out of USAFE as the
story
> goes. Supposedly he grashed but there were pieces found with what looked
to be
> cannon hits.

I can recall a case where a C-130E (637789) was indeed stolen by a
maintenance type in 1969 trying to get back to the US, but as I remember it
he was not shot down, and he did head in the right general direction. He
went down near the western end of the English Channel, killed himself in the
process (not surprisingly). The aircraft was from one of the C-130 squadrons
then assigned to Langley AFB; my Dad worked at the adjoining LRC/NASA, and
the whole incident caused quite a splash in the local media at the time.
Other than some conspiracy theorists relying on pure rumor mongering, there
was no evidence that it was "shot down". The more likely causes were listed
as either (non)pilot error (I guess that is what you would call it in this
case) or fuel starvation. One gent who was flying C-130's out of the UK at
the same time noted that for a short while thereafter there was a
requirement to chain down, with padlocks, all of their aircraft--but that
requirement died a quick death when someone lost one of the keys and they
had to use a fireaxe to liberate an aircraft to conduct a mission.

Brooks

<snip>

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 9 Feb 2004 14:11:54 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:


>I can recall a case where a C-130E (637789) was indeed stolen by a
>maintenance type in 1969 trying to get back to the US, but as I remember it
>he was not shot down, and he did head in the right general direction. He
>went down near the western end of the English Channel, killed himself in the
>process (not surprisingly). The aircraft was from one of the C-130 squadrons
>then assigned to Langley AFB; my Dad worked at the adjoining LRC/NASA, and
>the whole incident caused quite a splash in the local media at the time.
>Other than some conspiracy theorists relying on pure rumor mongering, there
>was no evidence that it was "shot down". The more likely causes were listed
>as either (non)pilot error (I guess that is what you would call it in this
>case) or fuel starvation. One gent who was flying C-130's out of the UK at
>the same time noted that for a short while thereafter there was a
>requirement to chain down, with padlocks, all of their aircraft--but that
>requirement died a quick death when someone lost one of the keys and they
>had to use a fireaxe to liberate an aircraft to conduct a mission.
>
>Brooks

The Mildenhall theft did result in a crash. Definitely not a
shoot-down. Gotta say the guy wasn't very wise in his choice of
aircraft to steal. Should have at least tried something of a size in
which one person can reach all the switches without having to walk
around the flight deck.

Very few tactical jets had self-starting capability during my tenure.
The only one that I recall was the T-37, which didn't require any
external power unless you planned to be on the radio waiting for a
clearance for more than about twenty minutes. All the rest required
air carts to spin up the engine. If you found one with pyro start
carts installed, you could then get it fired up without assistance.

You would have needed a friend if stealing an F-4 though, since
someone had to do the switches on the INS in the back seat to get an
alignment. No nav and no expensive flight instruments without it.
Ditto no ability to run the radar. Also you might want to know a bit
about securing the rear cockpit straps, etc. or you could find the
stick jammed from belts, harnesses, buckles and shifting seat kits.

I vaguely recall the chain-up business, but don't remember how it was
implemented on tactical aircraft. I think they chained up at night and
then removed them all in the morning during pre-flight.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Mark T. Evert]

> You would have needed a friend if stealing an F-4 though, since
> someone had to do the switches on the INS in the back seat to get an
> alignment. No nav and no expensive flight instruments without it.
> Ditto no ability to run the radar. Also you might want to know a bit
> about securing the rear cockpit straps, etc. or you could find the
> stick jammed from belts, harnesses, buckles and shifting seat kits.
>
The Collings Foundation F4D (which I have worked on) has a GPS installed in
the front cockpit. You would still need some help with the ground
equipment for startup.

[John S. Shinal]

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

>A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
>most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))

"All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
AAAGH ! The gust locks !"

PRANG ! Boom.



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[Dudley Henriques]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> > "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
> >>Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
> >>keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
> >>one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
> >>
> >>What about current military aircraft?
> >
> > In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
> > good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
> > First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly
the
> > airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft
specific
> > also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
> > cockpit....probably in the dark .
> > A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
> > most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
>
> I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.
>
> Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
> down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
> started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
> the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.
>
> Is basic flying of a WWII aircraft *really* that much more difficult than
> a Cessna 152? We're not talking about doing loops, barrel rolls and split
> S's. Just run the plane back to my secret hideout where I'll only look
and
> admire it as *my own*, as if a piece of art!
>
> > A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
> > case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a
hole in
> > the canopy track you can padlock. I never used one. Security was usually
> > supplied for me/ and/or the airplane was inside all the time.
>
> But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
> could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
> the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too
challenging.
> As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.
>
> Still, you spend $1 million for your P-51, or, like Glacier Girl,
something
> like $4 million on the restoration, seems adding an ignition key to start
> the thing wouldn't be too prohibitive (although you might lose the "Most
> Faithful Restoration" Award as a result).
>
> > Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was
that
> > with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time
worrying
> > about someone stealing the airplane.
>
> I think aircraft theft in general is rather rare. But still, we're
talking
> about millions of dollars of value here.
>
> > There have been cases in the military of enlisted people "borrowing" an
> > aircraft for a joyride. I remember one incident back in the fifties when
a
> > crew chief was taxi testing an F86D and decided on the spot to fly it.
They
> > got him back down somehow and promptly arrested him. Some other idiot
"stole
> > a B25 down at Keesler and got it into the air somehow. He lost an
engine,
> > then tried a turn into his dead left engine at about 100kts. Needless to
> > say, he morted as the airplane went into the gulf off the beach at
Biloxi.
> > Bottom line....it's possible......but considering the fact that the
pilot
> > would first have to be current in type and motovated to steal the
airplane;
> > the available window for potential would be theives is quite small I
would
> > imagine.
>
> I suppose so. You could never fly it safely on your own after you
> successfully stole it, since there aren't that many, and the sudden
> appearance of a newly painted P-51 (and even more so the more rare
> P-39, P-40 or P-38) would no doubt raise suspicions.
>
> The thief would have to be the type that just wanted to possess something
> rare and beautiful for himself, like a piece of art, where he gained
> pleasure and satisfaction just looking at it (as opposed to spending
> a bundle on insurance, oil, gas and maintenance per hour of operation).
>
> I guess having a P-38 painted up with "Glacier Girl" in my yard as a lawn
> ornament would probably attract attention.
>
> Well there are lots of F-16's around! Could I grab one of those without
> too much problem?
>
>
>

Well, keep in mind that the guy who stole the 190 was current in hot props,
and who knows about the light situation. It's definitely doable by someone
like this, especially if the guy had some science background that included
using the metric system. At least he could put 2x2 together and guess at the
rest. I would say however, that this 190 guy had to be a fairly good stick,
and probably had at least some inkling of what he was doing to be able to
start the airplane. Once started, he would have been fairly at home with
basically what to do to handle it.
As for the average Cessna driver climbing into either Vlado's or my 51 and
making off with it; I don't know what Vlado would say to this, but my guess
would be a mort on takeoff, if he could even get it started! Cranking a 51
can get a bit hairy if you don't know what you're doing. The big radials,
like a 2800 or even worse a 3350 can be a nightmare fire hazard if you're
not careful, even for the "more experienced" among us!! :-))
For the the fast jets, as Ed and some others have already mentioned, they're
not all that difficult to fly, but for someone trying to steal one, it would
be a systems nightmare for the thief even if external power was available.
The thing with jets is that they are extremely prestart and start checklist
sequence oriented, and not knowing what has to be thrown at what time and
within what parameters during the start sequence would REALLY foul up a
beginner!! In the T38 for example, you just basically push the start
buttons......but it's strongly suggested that you push them at the right
time!!!!! I'm guessing a hot start if anything at all in some of these fast
jets, or an engine fire. Also, assuming the idiot got it started, and just
going through an engine start checklist in my head for the Viper, I can't
imagine anyone pulling this off......God....JFS......switch
positioning......throttle positioning......getting essential systems on line
in proper sequence.....perhaps a Chimpanzee with an unlimited life span
trying everything possible might pull it off in ten million years if the
external power unit held out that long without overheating
:-)))))........but a thief in the night who's never been in the bird
before..................I don't know Stephen..........:-)))
I do understand your 190 guy though. With his prior experience in prop
fighters and his extreme motivation, it works for me. In fact, if it had
been me, I'm fairly certain I could have pulled it off myself, or at least I
would have tried anyway :-)))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[W. D. Allen Sr.]

Sure! Just jump in a Corsair, start 'er up, get 'er going down the runway
and then shove the throttle all the way forward. You'll never forget that
ride down the runway on your back.

A military prop fighter is more difficult to fly safely than is even a
modern jet fighter.

WDA

end

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Looking over recent photos of the P-38 "Glacier Girl", and reading
> all ($$$) that was involved in its restoration, I was wondering...
>
> What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
> and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
> of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
> runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
> Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?
>
> I have read of some British and American pilots, shot down over
> Nazi occupied Europe, stealing LW aircraft to make their escapes.
> Obviously no "keys" required for startup.
>
> Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
> keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
> one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
>
> What about current military aircraft?
>
>
> SMH
>

[Gerry]

Stephen Harding > wrote in message news:<40279357@news-> What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
> and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
> of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
> runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
> Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?
>
> Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
> keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
> one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
>
>
For many years in the 90's Amarillo Texas had a yearly airshow. My partner and
I took vacation to cover the close to AM security shift to :
A. see the planes up close!
B. The local Warbird museum got a fed grant based on hours donated to the cause.
Over the years lots of "lookie lousers" came out a 2 AM for a looksee and many
went to jail for unrelated matters. (Warrants, Dope, Liquer ect)

The T birds did require a 24 Hr armed guard as part of the deal so we talked
a third guy into covering that and all swapped out every coulpla hrs.

This was pre 9-11 so I'm positive it's even tighter now.

Gerry
A Campus Cop in Texas

[Dudley Henriques]

"John S. Shinal" > wrote in message
...
> "Dudley Henriques" wrote:
>
> >A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
> >most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
>
> "All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
> AAAGH ! The gust locks !"
>
> PRANG ! Boom.

Actually..... saw a guy do something almost as bad once. He had a Tri-Pacer.
We were all watching through the window of the flight office as he taxied
out with a rather large concrete block trailing along behind him tied to his
tail. We yelled at him on the radio, but naturally he didn't have THAT on!!!
So we all climbed on the field pickup truck and raced across the field after
him. We caught up to him while he was doing his runup. To this day, when
some of us get together and remember this, we bust out laughing thinking
what must have been going through his mind when he saw about fifteen people
hanging onto a bouncing pickup truck coming directly at him shouting and
waving like a bunch of banshees!!
He told us he nearly **** a brick!!! THAT REALLY broke us up!!!!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Vicente Vazquez]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote
> A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
> case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a hole in
> the canopy track you can padlock.

Well... this ain't exactly an example of a "discreet" place to put a
padlock, but anyway... :-)

http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/padlock.jpg

That's P-47D-40-RA n° 45-49151, preserved at the Museu Aeroespacial,
Rio de Janeiro, here in Brazil. And yes, that's me in the cockpit...

Vicente

[Dudley Henriques]

"W. D. Allen Sr." > wrote in message
...
> Sure! Just jump in a Corsair, start 'er up, get 'er going down the runway
> and then shove the throttle all the way forward. You'll never forget that
> ride down the runway on your back.

Yeah.......pushing that mixture RICH like they do in that 150 ought to make
for an exciting start with that 2800!!!! :-)))
>
> A military prop fighter is more difficult to fly safely than is even a
> modern jet fighter.

As Moses said holding up the ten commandments of which this could easily
have been the first........
"Behold..........behold the word of GOD!!! :-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Dudley Henriques]

"Vicente Vazquez" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote
> > A lot of the guys have a padlock setup on their canopies or doors in the
> > case of multi-engine stuff. Some aircraft canopy design allows for a
hole in
> > the canopy track you can padlock.
>
> Well... this ain't exactly an example of a "discreet" place to put a
> padlock, but anyway... :-)
>
> http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/padlock.jpg
>
> That's P-47D-40-RA n° 45-49151, preserved at the Museu Aeroespacial,
> Rio de Janeiro, here in Brazil. And yes, that's me in the cockpit...
>
> Vicente

Hi Vicente;

That's a great shot, and a great airplane. That padlock would be one of the
ways to secure the canopy on a 47; that's for sure!
My friend Vlado Lenoch has recently just flown a beautifully restored Jug (a
D.. I believe). There aren't too many left out there. This one looks like it
will be a great restoration when finished.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Bela P. Havasreti]

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:29:43 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:

>
>"John S. Shinal" > wrote in message
...
>> "Dudley Henriques" wrote:
>>
>> >A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
>the
>> >most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
>>
>> "All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
>> AAAGH ! The gust locks !"
>>
>> PRANG ! Boom.
>
>Actually..... saw a guy do something almost as bad once. He had a Tri-Pacer.
>We were all watching through the window of the flight office as he taxied
>out with a rather large concrete block trailing along behind him tied to his
>tail. We yelled at him on the radio, but naturally he didn't have THAT on!!!
>So we all climbed on the field pickup truck and raced across the field after
>him. We caught up to him while he was doing his runup. To this day, when
>some of us get together and remember this, we bust out laughing thinking
>what must have been going through his mind when he saw about fifteen people
>hanging onto a bouncing pickup truck coming directly at him shouting and
>waving like a bunch of banshees!!
>He told us he nearly **** a brick!!! THAT REALLY broke us up!!!!!
>:-))
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

Didn't see it myself, but friends who did swear it is true. A locally
(to me) based Cherokee successfully took off with a 5-gallon bucket
full of concrete still tied to the wing tie-down. Upon landing, the
bucket flailed around and damaged the underside of the wing and flap.

I actually did catch a student taxiing out (with instructor) one day
with the rudder gust-lock still installed (this was on a C-172 as I
recall).

Two of us sitting in the office saw it at the same time, and we both
bolted out the door running after the taxiing 172. We did catch it,
and pounded on the sides of the doors to get their attention and
to get them to stop. The looks on their faces (before & after they
realized the gust-lock was still in place) were priceless!

Bela P. Havasreti

[John]

"John S. Shinal" wrote:

> "Dudley Henriques" wrote:
>
> >A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
> >most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
>
> "All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
> AAAGH ! The gust locks !"
>
> PRANG ! Boom.

IIRC:
Is'nt that what caused the crash of the Evansville IN team DC-3
years ago. Crew forgot to remove the gust locks ?

1977, Dec 13 DC-3 Crashed after takeoff at Evansville, Indiana, USA
when a National Jet Services DC-3 crashed
during takeoff in Evansville, Ind., killing all
29 people on board, including the entire
14-member Evansville basketball team and
their coach, Bobby Watson.

[Jonathan Stilwell]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> >
> > > "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
> > >>Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
> > >>keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
> > >>one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
> >
> > But figure an aircraft worth $1 million plus, and airport security that
> > could not be more competent than a Nazi LW base during wartime! Seems
> > the opportunity for lifting one of these aircraft wouldn't be too
challenging.
> > As you point out, flying it, might be a bit different.
> > >
> > > Generally, the feeling in the warbird community when I was active was
that
> > > with normal security, you really didn't spend all that much time
worrying
> > > about someone stealing the airplane.

Of course, you don't necessarily have to fly the aircraft away to steal it;
I recall an article in a UK aviation magazine a couple of years ago
interviewing a warbird owner (IIRC a Spitfire).
He had arranged to go away on business for a couple of days, but cancelled
at the last minute. On visiting the hangar where his aircraft was stored, he
was rather concerned to find it being loaded onto a lorry (I think the
aircraft had the wings removed at the time). A timely call to the local
police soon saw the thieves quickly under arrest, but I believe the owner
was a bit worried over the relative ease at which the aircraft could have
been stolen.I think the article mentioned that it was an inside job, with
one of the employees on the airfield tipping off the would-be thieves when a
suitable opportunity arose.

Jon.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:27:37 GMT, "Mark T. Evert"
> wrote:

>
>> You would have needed a friend if stealing an F-4 though, since
>> someone had to do the switches on the INS in the back seat to get an
>> alignment. No nav and no expensive flight instruments without it.
>> Ditto no ability to run the radar. Also you might want to know a bit
>> about securing the rear cockpit straps, etc. or you could find the
>> stick jammed from belts, harnesses, buckles and shifting seat kits.
>>
>The Collings Foundation F4D (which I have worked on) has a GPS installed in
>the front cockpit. You would still need some help with the ground
>equipment for startup.
>
Gonna lose points at the "concours d'elegance" for that restoration!
Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[OXMORON1]

The "Mildenhall Incident" made life on the transient flightline hell for a
couple of months, actually had to wear those flightline badges all the time.
Our a/c took to having the lead loadmaster check everyone as part of the
aircraft baggage drill. No badge, no bag and nobody wanted to explain to the
APs running around all ove the place.

oxmoron1
Almost like being on a SAC Aerodrome!

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:13:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> wrote:


>For the the fast jets, as Ed and some others have already mentioned, they're
>not all that difficult to fly, but for someone trying to steal one, it would
>be a systems nightmare for the thief even if external power was available.

Lemme think about how many private pilot/fast-jet wannabes are gonna
survive a J-75 AB light and takeoff roll with the nosewheel still down
past 190 KIAS or coming into the overrun at 210 KIAS and getting it
down with sufficient runway to stop.

First try at a traditional "flare" is going to result in a balloon
that will have to be seen to be believed.

I recall a "re-qual" check for an old friend who needed "jet currency"
before going to A-10 school. In a T-38 he chopped the power and
"rounded out" at fifty feet in the air. I caught the bird on first
bounce with full AB and finessed it back into flight before a second
impact. Scared the bejesus (and maybe more) out of me.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[B2431]

(John S. Shinal)
>Date: 2/9/2004 3:09 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Dudley Henriques" wrote:
>
>>A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
>>most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
>
> "All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
>AAAGH ! The gust locks !"
>
> PRANG ! Boom.
>
>
>

That's how Les Towers put the Boeing 299, prototype for the B-17, into the
ground.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Mark T. Evert]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 20:27:37 GMT, "Mark T. Evert"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >> You would have needed a friend if stealing an F-4 though, since
> >> someone had to do the switches on the INS in the back seat to get an
> >> alignment. No nav and no expensive flight instruments without it.
> >> Ditto no ability to run the radar. Also you might want to know a bit
> >> about securing the rear cockpit straps, etc. or you could find the
> >> stick jammed from belts, harnesses, buckles and shifting seat kits.
> >>
> >The Collings Foundation F4D (which I have worked on) has a GPS installed
in
> >the front cockpit. You would still need some help with the ground
> >equipment for startup.
> >
> Gonna lose points at the "concours d'elegance" for that restoration!

LOL There's not a lot of competition in the F4D category....


> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Dudley Henriques]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 09 Feb 2004 21:13:53 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
> > wrote:
>
>
> >For the the fast jets, as Ed and some others have already mentioned,
they're
> >not all that difficult to fly, but for someone trying to steal one, it
would
> >be a systems nightmare for the thief even if external power was
available.
>
> Lemme think about how many private pilot/fast-jet wannabes are gonna
> survive a J-75 AB light and takeoff roll with the nosewheel still down
> past 190 KIAS or coming into the overrun at 210 KIAS and getting it
> down with sufficient runway to stop.
>
> First try at a traditional "flare" is going to result in a balloon
> that will have to be seen to be believed.
>
> I recall a "re-qual" check for an old friend who needed "jet currency"
> before going to A-10 school. In a T-38 he chopped the power and
> "rounded out" at fifty feet in the air. I caught the bird on first
> bounce with full AB and finessed it back into flight before a second
> impact. Scared the bejesus (and maybe more) out of me.

Yeah...ain't it the truth :-) Many is the novice who learned about
uncontrollable sink by getting a 38 get behind .6 aoa on final!!!!
:-))))
I remember one ground technician who won a ride in the T38 on one of those
"incentive" programs they had for the great unwashed. He apparently had a
bit of light airplane time and a private ticket. We watched as he prepped
for the flight all week, after begging to be put in the front seat. One of
the fixed wing IP's volunteered to take him so the front seat was no
problem. They gave him a dash one to study to make it more interesting for
him. The big day arrived. The IP talked him through the start and taxi out.
The IP, a buddy of mine, being a FWTP, kept a running log of the flight as
it progressed. Here's what happened as I remember it anyway!!! :-))) It was
priceless!!!
He related later that the guy was an absolute hoot on the ICS; using all
kinds of "fighter pilot" slang talk as he was walked through the start and
on the way out to the active. He got himself lined up ok after a short
discussion about the do's and don't's of NWS as that applies to using
maximum differential brake and the NWS at the same time
:-)), and then the IP walked him
through the line up check and told him what to expect on the takeoff run.
"How bad can it be?" the guy said. "Oh, the first time can be pretty fast if
you're not used to it", said the IP. "Ah.......No sweat....and roger
that......" says the tech!!!
The IP had briefed for a max AB climb to give the guy a real shot at the
Talon's performance.
All through the line up check the guy was answering back with these
"ah....roger's....and......ahhhhhhh.........roger that". Then the IP walked
him through the throttles up and instrument checks and release...then he
turned him loose. Immediately after brake release, the guy just starts
shouting in the ICS. "Oh Baby!!!!....Oh Baby!!!!!!...Oh man..........Oh my
God!!!!........Jesus H. Christ!!!!........Oh God help me!!!!!"
The IP was laughing so hard he damn near forgot to take the airplane before
things got out of hand. He damn near overshot rotation and gear retract
max!!!
He said he was in balls ass hysterics as he finally took the airplane away
from the guy and rotated. The way he described it in the log was that the
"pilots respiration rate increased as the square of the aircraft
velocity"!!!!
He swore if he hadn't taken it away, the guy would still be accelerating
with the mains on the ground somewhere....to someplace.......and THAT was
back in 1975!!!! You can only imagine where the damn airplane would be by
NOW!!! :-)))))
Dudley

[Pete]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Looking over recent photos of the P-38 "Glacier Girl", and reading
> all ($$$) that was involved in its restoration, I was wondering...
>
> What's stopping me from laying low during the next air show
> and in the early hours of the morning, climbing into the cockpit
> of my favorite warbird, and flying it off to my secret hideaway
> runway and storage facility where I also keep my illicitly gained
> Rembrandts, Van Goghs and pre-Columbian Indian art?
>

Not an aircraft, but an F-16 engine:

As the story goes:
Hill AFB, early '80's

A couple of SP's had been making off with lowlevel stuff, and fencing to a
mil surplus place downtown. Kept getting bigger and bigger, until the store
owners got nervous. They called the FBI.

"String em along. We'll be right there"

The FBI guys kept upping the stuff they wanted, and the SP's kept delivering

Finally, "Ok...we want an engine. An entire F-16 motor"
"OK"

So the two cops grabbed a bobtail tow truck, drove over to the engine shop,
hooked up to an engine on a trailer, and drove out the gate.
Look like you know what you're doing, and you may get away with it.

They're probably still in jail.

Pete

[MLenoch]

>The Collings Foundation F4D (which I have worked on) has a GPS installed in
>the front cockpit. You would still need some help with the ground
>equipment for startup.
>

Finally. Last time I flew it, the INS would drift in quick order. Does
Ritchie know how to run the GPS???
VL

[MLenoch]

Unfortunate, but true: About 20 years ago, a friend had his award winning
Christen Eagle stolen from his locked hanger. It has not ever been found. The
insurance company was good to their word. (His hanger was 3 doors away from
my Pitts.....).
VL

[Tex Houston]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
hlink.net...

<snipped>

Back in SAC days when I was a Command Post Controller I had two instances
where I sent the Supervisor of Flying and a security strike team to remove a
crew from the cockpit. One of the requirements then was a radio check
requiring authentication and an authenticated takeoff message for any
training flight. After the crew could not authenticate I asked the team to
go out. In both cases the crew had multiple days of authenticators and was
using the wrong day. Made me always a little leery of those two crews.

Many years ago at Nellis a crew chief was taxiing an F-100 and had always
wondered about afterburner. Yes he did...lost control, off the runway,
through the fence, across the road where the bird burned. All over the Air
Force crew chiefs were barred from moving aircraft under power which had
been common practice prior to the incident.

Regards,

Tex Houston

[Les Matheson]

When I got tapped for one of those unauthorized movements the cops showed up
with an M-60 aimed at my forehead. Made me want to do anything the young
two striper said.

Les


"Smartace11" > wrote in message
...
> >Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
> >First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly
the
> >airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft
specific
> >also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
>
> A maintenance troop stole a C-130 off the ramp at RAF Mildenhall. Got all
four
> started and managed to get ot off the ground. IIRC he was trying to get
back
> to the US to see his wife or girlfriend wh was leaving him. He ended up
headed
> the wrong direction and was shot down by fighters out of USAFE as the
story
> goes. Supposedly he grashed but there were pieces found with what looked
to be
> cannon hits.
>
> We used to practice trying to steal F-4s from RAF Lakenheath. All it took
was
> a gullible crew chief to help with the start and then taxi off. Usually
the
> flightline chief realized there was a plane taxiing that wan't on the
schedule
> and then the sky cops were launched. Their instructions were to try to
block
> the plane with their vehicles and if that failed, to shoot the crew.
>
> Unathorized people in the flightline got interesting treatment as well.
Full
> spread eagle on the ramp with an M-16 barrel poked in the ear. Happened
once
> to a doctor from the base hospital and his two yong daughters. I suspect
they
> still talk about their experience with daddy.

[John Keeney]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> > "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
> >>Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
> >>keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
> >>one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
> >>
> >>What about current military aircraft?
> >
> > In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
> > good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
> > First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly
the
> > airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft
specific
> > also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
> > cockpit....probably in the dark .
> > A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but
the
> > most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
>
> I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.
>
> Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
> down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
> started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
> the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.
>
> Is basic flying of a WWII aircraft *really* that much more difficult than
> a Cessna 152? We're not talking about doing loops, barrel rolls and split
> S's. Just run the plane back to my secret hideout where I'll only look
and
> admire it as *my own*, as if a piece of art!

Well, there is the issue of ATC tracking you and finking on where you went.
To avoid that we're talking low level work which raises the difficulty
factor
a bit.
That or I guess you could work in some poor coverage area like the Rockies.
Just don't try it over the midwest and expect to get away with it.

[Vicente Vazquez]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message .net>...
> Hi Vicente;
> That's a great shot, and a great airplane. That padlock would be one of the
> ways to secure the canopy on a 47; that's for sure!
> My friend Vlado Lenoch has recently just flown a beautifully restored Jug (a
> D.. I believe). There aren't too many left out there. This one looks like it
> will be a great restoration when finished.

Hi Dudley,

That aircraft's restoration was actually completed in 1999 (IIRC).
It's the only P-47 Thunderbolt in airworthy condition in Brazil,
though our Air Force forbade the museum to fly the aircraft, under the
argument that such rare aircraft shouldn't be put under the risk of
being lost in an accident. The engine is turned on and the a/c taxis
every once in a while, but it isn't flown (at least not while there's
someone watching :-)) Actually, it was flown briefly and
"unnoficially" several times, during tests. As the Museum belongs to
our Air Force, I guess it must be the last airworthy P-47 in the world
to still be "officially owned" by an Air Force. :-)

Some more pics:

http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/b4_musal_1.jpg
http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/b4_musal_2.jpg
http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/b4_musal_3.jpg

(Pictures taken from airliners.net website)

It is a post-war aircraft (P-47D-40-RA s/n 45-49151, former FAB 4184),
received in 1953, and it is painted in the colors and markings of the
aircraft flown by Lt. Luiz Lopes Dornelles (P-47D-25-RE s/n 42-26766),
the last Brazilian pilot to be KIA in italy.

There are four other P-47's preserved in Brazil (42-26757, 42-26760,
42-26762 and 44-19663) and though they are not airworthy, they have a
much more important historical value (at least for us) as these four
aircraft are all "combat veterans" from our 1st FS in Italy.

Cheers,

Vicente

(v dot vazquez at terra dot com dot br)

[Dudley Henriques]

I understand completely the argument concerning the flying of such a rare
bird. It's true that things can go wrong and an airplane like this could be
lost. It's a judgment call really, and each owner or association involved
with these airplanes must make this judgment carefully. You can make the
argument either way.
It's wonderful to see these airplanes in the air of course, but as they get
down to the nitty gritty of the last ones in the world, the desire to see
them in flight weighs more heavily on those entrusted with their care and
safe keeping.
I flew my Mustang, but I would respect another pilots decision not to fly
their warbird. It's a tough call!! :-)
Dudley

"Vicente Vazquez" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
.net>...
> > Hi Vicente;
> > That's a great shot, and a great airplane. That padlock would be one of
the
> > ways to secure the canopy on a 47; that's for sure!
> > My friend Vlado Lenoch has recently just flown a beautifully restored
Jug (a
> > D.. I believe). There aren't too many left out there. This one looks
like it
> > will be a great restoration when finished.
>
> Hi Dudley,
>
> That aircraft's restoration was actually completed in 1999 (IIRC).
> It's the only P-47 Thunderbolt in airworthy condition in Brazil,
> though our Air Force forbade the museum to fly the aircraft, under the
> argument that such rare aircraft shouldn't be put under the risk of
> being lost in an accident. The engine is turned on and the a/c taxis
> every once in a while, but it isn't flown (at least not while there's
> someone watching :-)) Actually, it was flown briefly and
> "unnoficially" several times, during tests. As the Museum belongs to
> our Air Force, I guess it must be the last airworthy P-47 in the world
> to still be "officially owned" by an Air Force. :-)
>
> Some more pics:
>
> http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/b4_musal_1.jpg
> http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/b4_musal_2.jpg
> http://www.aviacaomilitar.com.br/webkits/b4_musal_3.jpg
>
> (Pictures taken from airliners.net website)
>
> It is a post-war aircraft (P-47D-40-RA s/n 45-49151, former FAB 4184),
> received in 1953, and it is painted in the colors and markings of the
> aircraft flown by Lt. Luiz Lopes Dornelles (P-47D-25-RE s/n 42-26766),
> the last Brazilian pilot to be KIA in italy.
>
> There are four other P-47's preserved in Brazil (42-26757, 42-26760,
> 42-26762 and 44-19663) and though they are not airworthy, they have a
> much more important historical value (at least for us) as these four
> aircraft are all "combat veterans" from our 1st FS in Italy.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Vicente
>
> (v dot vazquez at terra dot com dot br)

[Errol Cavit]

(Vicente Vazquez) wrote in message >...
<snip>
>
> There are four other P-47's preserved in Brazil (42-26757, 42-26760,
> 42-26762 and 44-19663) and though they are not airworthy, they have a
> much more important historical value (at least for us) as these four
> aircraft are all "combat veterans" from our 1st FS in Italy.
>

Know the feeling, we just got a flying kiwi Corsair back in the
country (saw it flying here on TV a couple of days ago.)

http://www.travelcentre.com.au/travel/airshows/Wanaka/stars_of_the_show.htm

Errol Cavit | "I long for the day when we can match the Germans in the
sky, ‘plane for ‘plane. When that day dawns, Germany is
beaten. We know by experience that we can whack his land forces, tanks
included, any day of the week." Private L. A. Diamond, 23 NZ Batt,
1941

[WaltBJ]

Good old stories.
The three Pensacola sailors who stole a T34 (2 seats!) to go to New
Orleans. They ended up somewhere in Northern Alabama out of gas in a
field. I presume their next post was Portsmouth (NH) brig.
A crew chief was taxi-checking a Sabre at Williams AFB (AZ) way back
when and temptation got the better of him. He got airborne okay but
getting down - he was talked down by an IP but pranged the bird
successfully - i.e. he didn't kill himself.
As for getting airborne with stuff hanging on - one of our F86Ds at
Naha got airborne with a intake screen still attached. Nobody had a
good explanation for that as the screen was painted bright yellow.
An F4 got airborne with the big clunky gear downlocks still attached.
They're big things like pipes sawn lengthwise and clamped about the
shiny part of the retraction cylinder rams. They're also painted red
and have streamers attached.
One of my classmates got airborne at Nellis back in the 'Tiger program
days' in an 86 that had not been refueled from the previous flight- on
the turn out of traffic he found he had about 250 pounds of fuel left
- he got down okay, and got 'counseled' by his instructor.
Another one got one the shortest flights ever made at Bainbridge - the
fuel selector on his Piper PA18 was not positioned properly and about
25 feet in the air the engine quit cold. He got down okay, and went on
to a great flying career culminating in a 747 captaincy.
I 'recurrented' an old friend of mine in fighters - he got me in a
Sabre dance in a 104B. I'd neglected to ask what he'd been flying -
took it for granted he was still flying T33s. Nope - he'd been flying
T29s. OOps! But we survived.
Be ever pessimistic - it's a survival trait for pilots.
Walt BJ

[The Raven]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "John S. Shinal" > wrote in
message
> ...
> > "Dudley Henriques" wrote:
> >
> > >A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all
but
> the
> > >most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
> >
> > "All right, time to rotate...hmmm...what the...why can't I...
> > AAAGH ! The gust locks !"
> >
> > PRANG ! Boom.
>
> Actually..... saw a guy do something almost as bad once. He had a
Tri-Pacer.
> We were all watching through the window of the flight office as he taxied
> out with a rather large concrete block trailing along behind him tied to
his
> tail. We yelled at him on the radio, but naturally he didn't have THAT
on!!!
> So we all climbed on the field pickup truck and raced across the field
after
> him. We caught up to him while he was doing his runup. To this day, when
> some of us get together and remember this, we bust out laughing thinking
> what must have been going through his mind when he saw about fifteen
people
> hanging onto a bouncing pickup truck coming directly at him shouting and
> waving like a bunch of banshees!!
> He told us he nearly **** a brick!!! THAT REALLY broke us up!!!!!

Maybe someone else can provide the specific details but....... once upon a
time a visiting foreign fighter pilot to Australia attempted to land with
his gear up, on his belly tank!

Would have loved to watch that........at a safe distance.

--
The Raven
http://www.80scartoons.co.uk/batfinkquote.mp3
** President of the ozemail.* and uunet.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.

[Vicente Vazquez]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message .net>...
> It's wonderful to see these airplanes in the air of course, but as they get
> down to the nitty gritty of the last ones in the world, the desire to see
> them in flight weighs more heavily on those entrusted with their care and
> safe keeping.
> I flew my Mustang, but I would respect another pilots decision not to fly
> their warbird. It's a tough call!! :-)
> Dudley

Sure it is... :-)

But you can guess the frustration when that kind of decision is not up
to the pilot. An AF vet, Brig. Gen. Magalhães Motta, worked hard for
nine years
on that restoration... and when everything was ready, with the plane
on the
ramp, engine ready to start, he got an urgent telegram from the AF
High
Command saying "Nope! You cant' fly it!". Must have been a very tough
blow
for an old P-47 pilot who was about to revive old memories...

I remember when I first saw a Spitfire in flight here in Brazil, with
the
"Battle Of Britain" theme playing on the background, during the
cerimony
when it was delivered to a museum. While I watched it in flight, names
of
people and places like Biggin Hill, Hornchurch, Sailor Malan and
Douglas
Bader came through my head. All those black and white still images I
saw in
books suddenly turned into a colored motion picture, with that
wonderful
soundtrack provided by the Merlin engine. And then I learned that
reading
about aviation history is one thing: seeing it in flight right before
your
eyes is something completely different. You can call me "excessively
emotional" or whatever the word in English is, but man... I had to
wipe
some tears... :-)

And every time I look at that P-47 I regret not being able to see that
piece
of our history crossing our skies again, carrying the same colors that
were
seen over Italy 60 years ago, with that same "Ostrich" we are so proud
of,
painted on it's fuselage.

Maybe one day... Who knows? :-)

[Vicente Vazquez]

(Errol Cavit) wrote in message >...
> (Vicente Vazquez) wrote in message >...

>
> Know the feeling, we just got a flying kiwi Corsair back in the
> country (saw it flying here on TV a couple of days ago.)
>
> http://www.travelcentre.com.au/travel/airshows/Wanaka/stars_of_the_show.htm

Another Kiwi Corsair... :-)
We have an airworthy Corsair down here that came from New Zealand.
IIRC, it is the oldest birdcage Corsair in existance and it seems its
history card says it was used in combat in WWII. But I can't tell if
it is actually a former RNZN/RNZAF a/c or if it is a former USMC/USN
a/c bought by its previous Kiwi owner. It's currently painted in VF-17
markings.

[Bill McClain]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message . net>...
>Immediately after brake release, the guy just starts
> shouting in the ICS. "Oh Baby!!!!....Oh Baby!!!!!!...Oh man..........Oh my
> God!!!!........Jesus H. Christ!!!!........Oh God help me!!!!!"

Wow.

I wonder if was craving a post-coital cigarette afterward? Or just a
change of underwear?

[Dudley Henriques]

"Vicente Vazquez" > wrote in message
om...
> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
.net>...

> I remember when I first saw a Spitfire in flight here in Brazil, with
> the
> "Battle Of Britain" theme playing on the background, during the
> cerimony
> when it was delivered to a museum. While I watched it in flight, names
> of
> people and places like Biggin Hill, Hornchurch, Sailor Malan and
> Douglas
> Bader came through my head.

Douglas was a personal friend of mine for many years. Of all the things I
liked about Douglas; his work with handicapped children will always be
remembered by both myself and my wife. He was one of the charter members of
the old IFPF. We talked about the Harry Saltzman filming of "BOB" many
times. He often remarked about how his relationship with Galland got much
better after the two of them worked together on the film. Malan, believe it
or not, was one of Douglas' favorite people. It was Sailor who was
responsible for developing the tactics that changed Fighter Command's
thinking and changed Dowding's thinking. Many don't know that Bader liked
and respected Malan, as Sailor more or less sided with Keith Park during the
controversy when Douglas and Lee Mallory were pushing the "Big Wing" theory.
Those were interesting times and interesting people. Where else for example,
just in this little tidbit we're sharing here, can you find three characters
named Adolph? Hitler......Galland......and Malan!
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Michael]

Stephen Harding > wrote in message >...
> Dudley Henriques wrote:
>
> > "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
> >>Do restored warbirds have some sort of security system added to
> >>keep unscrupulous members of the public such as me, from taking
> >>one up for an unauthorized flight? Some sort of starting "key"?
> >>
> >>What about current military aircraft?
> >
> > In theory it could be done, but the pilot doing it would have to be REAL
> > good! :-)) Just the pre-requesites are daunting to say the least.
> > First, the pilot doing this would have to be good enough to actually fly the
> > airplane, which not only requires specific skills but is aircraft specific
> > also. That means the thief would have to know where everything is in the
> > cockpit....probably in the dark .
> > A self inspired night checkout in the average warbird would kill all but the
> > most "inspired" I can assure you!! :-)))
>
> I was hoping you or Vlado would comment.
>
> Well I'll take your word for it. But I recall an American pilot shot
> down in Europe during WWII stealing a FW 190 (IIRC). He got the thing
> started and into the air (in the dark), but flew it back to England with
> the gear down since he couldn't figure out how to raise it.

You're thinking of Bruce Carr from the 354th FG. He was supposedly
shot down over Czechoslovakia, stole a FW-190 and flew back to his
base in France. The story has been told on the internet and in
magazines, but I've never seen it included in a history of the 354th
and I beleive there is some debate about whether or not it really
happened.

~Michael

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Vicente Vazquez wrote:
> And every time I look at that P-47 I regret not being able to see
> that piece of our history crossing our skies again, carrying the same
> colors that were seen over Italy 60 years ago, with that same
> "Ostrich" we are so proud of painted on it's fuselage.


My dad told me stories of being buzzed every morning by a Brazilian P-47
squadron in Italy in WWII. He was flying C-47s at the time and said the
Thunderbolts would come roaring over just above the tents. Made a hell of a
noise.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

[Errol Cavit]

(Vicente Vazquez) wrote in message >...
> (Errol Cavit) wrote in message >...
> > (Vicente Vazquez) wrote in message >...
>
> >
> > Know the feeling, we just got a flying kiwi Corsair back in the
> > country (saw it flying here on TV a couple of days ago.)
> >
> > http://www.travelcentre.com.au/travel/airshows/Wanaka/stars_of_the_show.htm
>
> Another Kiwi Corsair... :-)
> We have an airworthy Corsair down here that came from New Zealand.
> IIRC, it is the oldest birdcage Corsair in existance and it seems its
> history card says it was used in combat in WWII. But I can't tell if
> it is actually a former RNZN/RNZAF a/c or if it is a former USMC/USN
> a/c bought by its previous Kiwi owner. It's currently painted in VF-17
> markings.


Some more info on the birdcage:
http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/former/f4u1.htm

And kiwi Corsairs
http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/corsair.html

RNZN didn't have any aircraft (maybe a shagbat or two?), although
something like one third of the British Pacific Fleet aircrew in 1945
were New Zealanders.

Cheers, Errol Cavit | "I long for the day when we can match the
Germans in the sky, 'plane for 'plane. When that day dawns, Germany is
beaten. We know by experience that we can whack his land forces, tanks
included, any day of the week." Private L.A.Diamond, 23 NZ Batt, 1941

[Vicente Vazquez]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message >...
> My dad told me stories of being buzzed every morning by a Brazilian P-47
> squadron in Italy in WWII. He was flying C-47s at the time and said the
> Thunderbolts would come roaring over just above the tents. Made a hell of a
> noise.

Some time ago I received an e-mail from a USAAF vet telling me exactly
the same story. He told me he flew C-47's and while he was stationed
at Tarquinia (after the Brazilian FS moved on to Pisa) the Brazilian
P-47's would every once in a while "visit" their former base and make
some low passes over the tents.

Unfortunately I lost that e-mail message the last time I had to format
my HD but, considering the coincidence, can I guess it was your father
who wrote me ??

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Vicente Vazquez wrote:
> Some time ago I received an e-mail from a USAAF vet telling me exactly
> the same story. He told me he flew C-47's and while he was stationed
> at Tarquinia (after the Brazilian FS moved on to Pisa) the Brazilian
> P-47's would every once in a while "visit" their former base and make
> some low passes over the tents.
>
> Unfortunately I lost that e-mail message the last time I had to format
> my HD but, considering the coincidence, can I guess it was your father
> who wrote me ??



A strong possibility. I know he's in here regularly.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

[Vicente Vazquez]

(Errol Cavit) wrote in message >...
>
> Some more info on the birdcage:
> http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/former/f4u1.htm
>
> And kiwi Corsairs
> http://www.kiwiaircraftimages.com/corsair.html
>
> RNZN didn't have any aircraft (maybe a shagbat or two?), although
> something like one third of the British Pacific Fleet aircrew in 1945
> were New Zealanders.

Thanks for the links and info...

Picture (not a very good one) of that Corsair in Brasil, stored at one of
TAM's (a Brazilian airline, owner of the aircraft) hangar, in São Paulo...

http://www.spotter.com.br/Museus/Museu_0016.jpg

I hope their museum will be finally opened in 2004.

[José Herculano]

> Very few tactical jets had self-starting capability during my tenure.
> The only one that I recall was the T-37, which didn't require any
> external power unless you planned to be on the radio waiting for a

A Portuguese Air Force officer (non-flying) did take a T-37C on a joyride.
Managed to land the thing back without damage, and on account of being well
connected pursued his military career to, IIRC, the rank of Colonel.
_____________
José Herculano