WW1 RAF night bomber markings question?

[Bill Burns]

I came across an interesting reference in a history of aircraft markings
book to an apparently short lived, early war upper-wing national marking for
WW1 RAF night bombers. The reference described it simply as a white disc
used only on night bombers. This marking was different from the white discs
used on fuselage sides as a squadron marking.
Can anyone provide any other information regarding this marking?
Was it simply a white disc? What year was it indroduced? Withdrawn?

Thanks for the help,

Wm. (Bill) Burns
London, Ont.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/

"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
Bill Burns > wrote:
>I came across an interesting reference in a history of aircraft markings
>book to an apparently short lived, early war upper-wing national marking for
>WW1 RAF night bombers. The reference described it simply as a white disc

Nitpick, perhaps (though it might be useful when chasing this out) -
if it was early WW1 then the bombers would have been RNAS (Royal Naval
Aviation Service), not RAF (which wasn't formed until 1918). Naval
aviation markings were initially rather different from those adopted
by the army (Royal Flying Corps), so the best place to start looking
is sources on naval aviation - have you tried contacting the Fleet
Air Arm museum at Yeovilton?

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[Dave Eadsforth]

In article >, ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
> writes
>In article >,
>Bill Burns > wrote:
>>I came across an interesting reference in a history of aircraft markings
>>book to an apparently short lived, early war upper-wing national marking for
>>WW1 RAF night bombers. The reference described it simply as a white disc
>
>Nitpick, perhaps (though it might be useful when chasing this out) -
>if it was early WW1 then the bombers would have been RNAS (Royal Naval
>Aviation Service), not RAF (which wasn't formed until 1918). Naval
>aviation markings were initially rather different from those adopted
>by the army (Royal Flying Corps), so the best place to start looking
>is sources on naval aviation - have you tried contacting the Fleet
>Air Arm museum at Yeovilton?
>

I have just taken a look at some photos of RNAS Westgate in 1914/1915,
and it looks as though their aircraft may have had no identification
marking up to the start of WWI. Pre-war there are no fuselage markings;
just a serial number on the rudder. (Any wings markings there might
have been are not shown on the photos due to the angle of the shots.)

By 1915 the RNAS machines have normal three-colour roundels on fuselage
and wing, and a tricolour flash on the rudder - no apparent difference
to those of the RFC. The photos show the Bristol Scout and the B.E.2.c.

I don't have any information about other RNAS stations or any other
types of aircraft, but I hope that the above helps a bit.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

[Richard Brooks]

Bill Burns wrote:
> I came across an interesting reference in a history of aircraft
> markings book to an apparently short lived, early war upper-wing
> national marking for WW1 RAF night bombers. The reference described
> it simply as a white disc used only on night bombers. This marking
> was different from the white discs used on fuselage sides as a
> squadron marking.
> Can anyone provide any other information regarding this marking?
> Was it simply a white disc? What year was it indroduced? Withdrawn?
>

In "Camouflage '14-18 Aircraft" by O.G. Thetford, 1943 all I've got in
reference is;

Night-Flying F.E. 2B Bombers.-When the F.E. 2B became outmoded for day
fighting it was switched on to night bombing duties, and these machines were
painted black all over and had special cockades compromising a white circle
with a black centre.

If I find anything else, I'll let you know.


Richard.


> Thanks for the help,
>
> Wm. (Bill) Burns
> London, Ont.
> http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/
>
> "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"

[Bill Burns]

Thanks Richard,
That sounds like a promising reference!
If you do dig up anything else that would be great.
I was planning on quoting the reference I spoke of, but I have left the
photocopied pages at work, another senior moment for me it seems!! I will
try for tomorrow.

Wm. (Bill) Burns
London, Ont.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/

"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"


"Richard Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Burns wrote:
> > I came across an interesting reference in a history of aircraft
> > markings book to an apparently short lived, early war upper-wing
> > national marking for WW1 RAF night bombers. The reference described
> > it simply as a white disc used only on night bombers. This marking
> > was different from the white discs used on fuselage sides as a
> > squadron marking.
> > Can anyone provide any other information regarding this marking?
> > Was it simply a white disc? What year was it indroduced? Withdrawn?
> >
>
> In "Camouflage '14-18 Aircraft" by O.G. Thetford, 1943 all I've got in
> reference is;
>
> Night-Flying F.E. 2B Bombers.-When the F.E. 2B became outmoded for day
> fighting it was switched on to night bombing duties, and these machines
were
> painted black all over and had special cockades compromising a white
circle
> with a black centre.
>
> If I find anything else, I'll let you know.
>
>
> Richard.
>
>
> > Thanks for the help,
> >
> > Wm. (Bill) Burns
> > London, Ont.
> > http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/
> >
> > "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"
>
>

[Bill Burns]

Andy,

Sorry about that, a senior moment perhaps? - I did indeed mean to say RFC
instead of RAF. A good suggestion, thanks I will inquire in the Naval
Aviation newsgroup.

Bill


Wm. (Bill) Burns
London, Ont.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/

"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"


"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Bill Burns > wrote:
> >I came across an interesting reference in a history of aircraft markings
> >book to an apparently short lived, early war upper-wing national marking
for
> >WW1 RAF night bombers. The reference described it simply as a white disc
>
> Nitpick, perhaps (though it might be useful when chasing this out) -
> if it was early WW1 then the bombers would have been RNAS (Royal Naval
> Aviation Service), not RAF (which wasn't formed until 1918). Naval
> aviation markings were initially rather different from those adopted
> by the army (Royal Flying Corps), so the best place to start looking
> is sources on naval aviation - have you tried contacting the Fleet
> Air Arm museum at Yeovilton?
>
> --
> Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
> http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
> "Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
> and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[Bill Burns]

Richard,

This is the reference I was referring to. It is photocopied from a book
entirely about aircraft markings but unfortunately I do not know the book's
name, but it had a n individual section for every country and spanned from
the turn of the century to the late 1960's. This passage is taken from a 236
page section simply titled "Chronology" which started on page 171 and
itemized all significant changes by date. Any information about this or the
white disc with a black centre you mentioned earlier would be appreciated.

The entry for 12 Sep 1916 is this:

Special national insignia for British night flying aircraft promulgated to
all RFC units in an instruction which read:
The attention of all concerned is directed to the following distinctive
marking, which it has been decided shall be adopted for black-winged night
flying aeroplanes : On top and bottom wings, white circle the same size as
the blue circle used in the marking of day machines.



Wm. (Bill) Burns
London, Ont.
http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/

"Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"


"Richard Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> Bill Burns wrote:
> > I came across an interesting reference in a history of aircraft
> > markings book to an apparently short lived, early war upper-wing
> > national marking for WW1 RAF night bombers. The reference described
> > it simply as a white disc used only on night bombers. This marking
> > was different from the white discs used on fuselage sides as a
> > squadron marking.
> > Can anyone provide any other information regarding this marking?
> > Was it simply a white disc? What year was it indroduced? Withdrawn?
> >
>
> In "Camouflage '14-18 Aircraft" by O.G. Thetford, 1943 all I've got in
> reference is;
>
> Night-Flying F.E. 2B Bombers.-When the F.E. 2B became outmoded for day
> fighting it was switched on to night bombing duties, and these machines
were
> painted black all over and had special cockades compromising a white
circle
> with a black centre.
>
> If I find anything else, I'll let you know.
>
>
> Richard.
>
>
> > Thanks for the help,
> >
> > Wm. (Bill) Burns
> > London, Ont.
> > http://www3.sympatico.ca/wmburns/
> >
> > "Those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it"
>
>

[Richard Brooks]

Bill Burns wrote:
> Richard,
>
> This is the reference I was referring to. It is photocopied from a
> book entirely about aircraft markings but unfortunately I do not know
> the book's name, but it had a n individual section for every country
> and spanned from the turn of the century to the late 1960's. This
> passage is taken from a 236 page section simply titled "Chronology"
> which started on page 171 and itemized all significant changes by
> date. Any information about this or the white disc with a black
> centre you mentioned earlier would be appreciated.
>
> The entry for 12 Sep 1916 is this:
>
> Special national insignia for British night flying aircraft
> promulgated to all RFC units in an instruction which read:
> The attention of all concerned is directed to the following
> distinctive marking, which it has been decided shall be adopted for
> black-winged night flying aeroplanes : On top and bottom wings, white
> circle the same size as the blue circle used in the marking of day
> machines.
>

So it just sounds like the upper wing roundel outer dark blue was painted
white but no mention of whether the dull red centre was over-painted in
black. They should really say "outer ring" as this would give understanding
to having a hollow centre of some other colour.

I think it's time to go to the boys who know!
http://www.flying-museum.org.uk/royalflyingcorps.html

If they're anything like the RAF Museum, you should be sent loads of stuff
through the post by very nice people.

Good luck!


Richard.