Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort

[ArtKramr]

The mission was far into Germany at the very limit of our fuel reserves. I
don't remember the target but I never will forget the return flight. B-26's
carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the flight as
though he was flying lead. After we hit the target we turned toward home. As I
was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us right
over Frankfort. Impossible, Frankfort was defended by 600 guns, I must have
made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. We were headed
right for Frankfort and the 600 guns. .Yet no one broke radio silence Suddenly
the sky filled with violent accurate flak. We lost two planes that day over
Frankfort 12 aircrew dead because of navigational carelessness. When we landed
we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were except for
the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline in
radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mu]

On 10 Feb 2004 15:52:40 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>The mission was far into Germany at the very limit of our fuel reserves. I
>don't remember the target but I never will forget the return flight. B-26's
>carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the flight as
>though he was flying lead. After we hit the target we turned toward home. As I
>was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us right
>over Frankfort. Impossible, Frankfort was defended by 600 guns, I must have
>made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. We were headed
>right for Frankfort and the 600 guns. .Yet no one broke radio silence Suddenly
>the sky filled with violent accurate flak. We lost two planes that day over
>Frankfort 12 aircrew dead because of navigational carelessness. When we landed
>we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were except for
>the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline in
>radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Ave Art
Just a quick question.
Do you know the operational reasons radio silence had to be so
strictly maintained on the return voyage? I can imagine radio
contacts like "2 hours to cologne" are absolutely no-go.. But
contacts like "watch out lead,gross nav error" seems not tot be
leaking too much info to the enemy.
I can imagine a protocol where let's say 4 calls of "gross nav
error" from other navigators, will transfer the "navigator lead"
function to the next plane. Was it possible radio communications were
used for direction finding by the germans? Possible false calls by the
germans?

To put it in the extreme the next what-if.
Target assigned : Cologne (damn railyards again)
Home Field: England

After a succesfull bomb run lead acts like you're home field is due
east. (has a 180 degrees nav error)

What were the procedures in such an occasion?
Break radio silence only in VERY VERY VERY gross nav errors?
Break away individually ? (looks like suicide to me in daylight
bombing)

I can't image you had to follow lead until you drop out of the sky the
east when the whole squadron knows England is 180 degress tot the
other side.

Just curious
Mu

[Ron]

>The mission was far into Germany at the very limit of our fuel reserves. I
>don't remember the target but I never will forget the return flight. B-26's
>carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the flight as
>though he was flying lead. After we hit the target we turned toward home. As
>I
>was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us
>right
>over Frankfort. Impossible, Frankfort was defended by 600 guns, I must have
>made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. We were headed
>right for Frankfort and the 600 guns. .Yet no one broke radio silence
>Suddenly
>the sky filled with violent accurate flak. We lost two planes that day over
>Frankfort 12 aircrew dead because of navigational carelessness. When we
>landed
>we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were except
>for
>the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline in
>radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

A couple of weeks ago, at a meeting of airtanker pilot in Reno, Walt Stewart
was a guest speaker.
He was a pilot on B-24, and his bombs were actually the first to hit the
refinery. "Utah Man" was the name of his B-24 and there was a documentary
video made about it a while back.

He talked about how on the way there, his navigator realized that the formation
had turned about 40 miles too early, using the wrong railroad for point to
start the turn.

They were 2nd in their particular group in the formation, and they were
completely sure that turn that was made was wrong, but was unable to question
it on the radio, due to radio silence.

Shortly afterward, the #1 plane in their group turned back out of formation,
and headed towards the right target, which they were happy about, because they
knew it wasnt just them that knew a navigational error had been made.

He did stress how gutsy it was though, to just turn the particular group out of
the formation like that, and its a gamble that if you are correct, you are a
hero, and if you are wrong, off to Ft Leavenworth you go.



Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>From: (Ron)
>Date: 2/10/04 8:26 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>The mission was far into Germany at the very limit of our fuel reserves. I
>>don't remember the target but I never will forget the return flight. B-26's
>>carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the flight as
>>though he was flying lead. After we hit the target we turned toward home.
>As
>>I
>>was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us
>>right
>>over Frankfort. Impossible, Frankfort was defended by 600 guns, I must have
>>made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. We were
>headed
>>right for Frankfort and the 600 guns. .Yet no one broke radio silence
>>Suddenly
>>the sky filled with violent accurate flak. We lost two planes that day over
>>Frankfort 12 aircrew dead because of navigational carelessness. When we
>>landed
>>we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were except
>>for
>>the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline in
>>radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>A couple of weeks ago, at a meeting of airtanker pilot in Reno, Walt Stewart
>was a guest speaker.
>He was a pilot on B-24, and his bombs were actually the first to hit the
>refinery. "Utah Man" was the name of his B-24 and there was a documentary
>video made about it a while back.
>
>He talked about how on the way there, his navigator realized that the
>formation
>had turned about 40 miles too early, using the wrong railroad for point to
>start the turn.
>
>They were 2nd in their particular group in the formation, and they were
>completely sure that turn that was made was wrong, but was unable to question
>it on the radio, due to radio silence.
>
>Shortly afterward, the #1 plane in their group turned back out of formation,
>and headed towards the right target, which they were happy about, because
>they
>knew it wasnt just them that knew a navigational error had been made.
>
>He did stress how gutsy it was though, to just turn the particular group out
>of
>the formation like that, and its a gamble that if you are correct, you are a
>hero, and if you are wrong, off to Ft Leavenworth you go.
>
>
>
>Ron
>Pilot/Wildland Firefighter
>


Great story. I love it when I hear of guys who snatch victory from the jaws
of defeat. Thanks a lot. Those two crews of ours over Frankuirt weren't so
lucky.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>The mission was far into Germany at the very limit of our fuel reserves. I
>don't remember the target but I never will forget the return flight. B-26's
>carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the flight as
>though he was flying lead. After we hit the target we turned toward home. As I
>was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us right
>over Frankfort. Impossible, Frankfort was defended by 600 guns, I must have
>made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. We were headed
>right for Frankfort and the 600 guns. .Yet no one broke radio silence Suddenly
>the sky filled with violent accurate flak. We lost two planes that day over
>Frankfort 12 aircrew dead because of navigational carelessness. When we landed
>we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were except for
>the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline in
>radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.

Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
then? If someone had put a quick question to the lead a/c what would
have been lost? Your radio frequencies were changed for each mission? It
would have been amazing if the enemy heard the transmissions. If he had,
what would he have gained? There wouldn't have been time to DF you. And
he knew where you were anyway.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Bob's Your Uncle]

"M. J. Powell" <wrote in message

....snip...
B-26's carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the
flight as though he was flying lead. As I
> >was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us
right
> >over Frankfort.I must have
> >made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. When we
landed
> >we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were
except for
> >the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline
in
> >radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
>
> Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
> then? > Mike
> --
> M.J.Powell

Why are these psuedo navigators plottting a course for home after hitting
the taret? One would think they would have that pre-planned as well as a
course from the secondary.
This narrative is from someone who doesn't know the difference between
Compass Deviation and Magnetic Variation, as we remember!
Perhaps, in additio he meant a Heading instead of a Course?

[Keith Willshaw]

"Bob's Your Uncle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "M. J. Powell" <wrote in message
>
> ...snip...
> B-26's carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the
> flight as though he was flying lead. As I
> > >was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking
us
> right
> > >over Frankfort.I must have
> > >made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. When we
> landed
> > >we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were
> except for
> > >the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron
discipline
> in
> > >radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
> >
> > Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
> > then? > Mike
> > --
> > M.J.Powell
>
> Why are these psuedo navigators plottting a course for home after hitting
> the taret? One would think they would have that pre-planned as well as a
> course from the secondary.

You cant pre-plan wind speed and direction, what Art is describing
sounds like comparing actual position with the planned position to
pass an updated heading to the pilot for him to fly. If you leave this
to the lead then you can get into all sorts of trouble if he goes
down or you get seperated from the group.

This is what is believed to have happened to the B-24 Lady Be Good
that got lost over the African Desert, she became separated from the
group and the navigators log book and charts showed no plot
had been kept. The entire crew died in the desert as a result.

> This narrative is from someone who doesn't know the difference between
> Compass Deviation and Magnetic Variation, as we remember!
> Perhaps, in additio he meant a Heading instead of a Course?
>

Nope, the nav plots the course gives the pilot a heading to fly
stay in order to stay on that course allowing for wind drift.

Keith

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>From: "M. J. Powell"
>Date: 2/11/04 4:07 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>The mission was far into Germany at the very limit of our fuel reserves. I
>>don't remember the target but I never will forget the return flight. B-26's
>>carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the flight as
>>though he was flying lead. After we hit the target we turned toward home.
>As I
>>was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us
>right
>>over Frankfort. Impossible, Frankfort was defended by 600 guns, I must have
>>made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. We were
>headed
>>right for Frankfort and the 600 guns. .Yet no one broke radio silence
>Suddenly
>>the sky filled with violent accurate flak. We lost two planes that day over
>>Frankfort 12 aircrew dead because of navigational carelessness. When we
>landed
>>we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were except
>for
>>the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline in
>>radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
>
>Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
>then? If someone had put a quick question to the lead a/c what would
>have been lost? Your radio frequencies were changed for each mission? It
>would have been amazing if the enemy heard the transmissions. If he had,
>what would he have gained? There wouldn't have been time to DF you. And
>he knew where you were anyway.
>
>Mike
>--
>M.J.Powell


Of course they knew we were there. They were shooting at us. And every one of
us thought just that. But we can't have a situation where radio silence must be
kept unless someone thinks other wise. In that case everyone would be blabbing
over the radio all the damn time. So the rule is trict and allows for no
exceptions. Radio silence. Always radio silence. No exceptions. No matter
what. It is the way we were trained. and that is how we flew our missions. For
better or for worse.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
>Date: 2/11/04 5:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"M. J. Powell" <wrote in message
>
>...snip...
>B-26's carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the
>flight as though he was flying lead. As I
>> >was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us
>right
>> >over Frankfort.I must have
>> >made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. When we
>landed
>> >we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were
>except for
>> >the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline
>in
>> >radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
>>
>> Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
>> then? > Mike
>> --
>> M.J.Powell
>
>Why are these psuedo navigators plottting a course for home after hitting
>the taret? One would think they would have that pre-planned as well as a
>course from the secondary.
>This narrative is from someone who doesn't know the difference between
>Compass Deviation and Magnetic Variation, as we remember!
>Perhaps, in additio he meant a Heading instead of a Course?
>
>
Any one of us could have been hit at any time and have to fall out of the
formation and plot an alternate course home. So we all kept track. But anyone
who ever flew a mission would know that and not have to ask.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>From: (ArtKramr)
>Date: 2/11/04 5:38 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>>From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
>>Date: 2/11/04 5:16 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"M. J. Powell" <wrote in message
>>
>>...snip...
>>B-26's carry bombardier navigators. Each one in the formation plots the
>>flight as though he was flying lead. As I
>>> >was plotting our course my plot looked as though the lead was taking us
>>right
>>> >over Frankfort.I must have
>>> >made a mistake in my plot. I did it over and over. No mistake. When we
>>landed
>>> >we all talked about the error. It seems everyone knew where we were
>>except for
>>> >the lead navigator. We paid a high price for maintaining iron discipline
>>in
>>> >radio silence. One more point, We never saw that navigator again.
>>>
>>> Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
>>> then? > Mike
>>> --
>>> M.J.Powell
>>
>>Why are these psuedo navigators plottting a course for home after hitting
>>the taret? One would think they would have that pre-planned as well as a
>>course from the secondary.
>>This narrative is from someone who doesn't know the difference between
>>Compass Deviation and Magnetic Variation, as we remember!
>>Perhaps, in additio he meant a Heading instead of a Course?
>>
>>
>Any one of us could have been hit at any time and have to fall out of the
>formation and plot an alternate course home. So we all kept track. But anyone
>who ever flew a mission would know that and not have to ask.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>


We must never forget "Lady be Good" It still lives in all our nightmares.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ron]

>>A couple of weeks ago, at a meeting of airtanker pilot in Reno, Walt Stewart
>>was a guest speaker.
>>He was a pilot on B-24, and his bombs were actually the first to hit the
>>refinery. "Utah Man" was the name of his B-24 and there was a documentary
>>video made about it a while back.
>>
>>He talked about how on the way there, his navigator realized that the
>>formation
>>had turned about 40 miles too early, using the wrong railroad for point to
>>start the turn.
>>
>>They were 2nd in their particular group in the formation, and they were
>>completely sure that turn that was made was wrong, but was unable to
>question
>>it on the radio, due to radio silence.
>>
>>Shortly afterward, the #1 plane in their group turned back out of formation,
>>and headed towards the right target, which they were happy about, because
>>they
>>knew it wasnt just them that knew a navigational error had been made.
>>
>>He did stress how gutsy it was though, to just turn the particular group out
>>of
>>the formation like that, and its a gamble that if you are correct, you are a
>>hero, and if you are wrong, off to Ft Leavenworth you go.
>>
>>
>>
>>Ron
>>Pilot/Wildland Firefighter
>>
>
>

I meant to say it was Ploesti I was talking about...


Ron
Pilot/Wildland Firefighter

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>From: (Ron)
>Date: 2/11/04 5:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>>A couple of weeks ago, at a meeting of airtanker pilot in Reno, Walt
>Stewart
>>>was a guest speaker.
>>>He was a pilot on B-24, and his bombs were actually the first to hit the
>>>refinery. "Utah Man" was the name of his B-24 and there was a documentary
>>>video made about it a while back.
>>>
>>>He talked about how on the way there, his navigator realized that the
>>>formation
>>>had turned about 40 miles too early, using the wrong railroad for point to
>>>start the turn.
>>>
>>>They were 2nd in their particular group in the formation, and they were
>>>completely sure that turn that was made was wrong, but was unable to
>>question
>>>it on the radio, due to radio silence.
>>>
>>>Shortly afterward, the #1 plane in their group turned back out of
>formation,
>>>and headed towards the right target, which they were happy about, because
>>>they
>>>knew it wasnt just them that knew a navigational error had been made.
>>>
>>>He did stress how gutsy it was though, to just turn the particular group
>out
>>>of
>>>the formation like that, and its a gamble that if you are correct, you are
>a
>>>hero, and if you are wrong, off to Ft Leavenworth you go.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Ron
>>>Pilot/Wildland Firefighter
>>>
>>
>>
>
>I meant to say it was Ploesti I was talking about...
>
>
>Ron
>Pilot/Wildland Firefighter
>

Never mention Ploesti before bedtime. (Aaaargh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>>From: "M. J. Powell"
>>landed

snip
>>
>>Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
>>then? If someone had put a quick question to the lead a/c what would
>>have been lost? Your radio frequencies were changed for each mission? It
>>would have been amazing if the enemy heard the transmissions. If he had,
>>what would he have gained? There wouldn't have been time to DF you. And
>>he knew where you were anyway.
>>
>>Mike
>>--
>>M.J.Powell
>
>
>Of course they knew we were there. They were shooting at us. And every one of
>us thought just that. But we can't have a situation where radio silence must be
>kept unless someone thinks other wise. In that case everyone would be blabbing
>over the radio all the damn time. So the rule is trict and allows for no
>exceptions. Radio silence. Always radio silence. No exceptions. No matter
>what. It is the way we were trained. and that is how we flew our missions. For
>better or for worse.

Weeelll......I hate to criticise, but surely real emergencies can take
priority? The formation captain (?) can close down any chatter, as on an
intercom.

To lose a couple of planes and crews for want of a short comment, seems
a very high price to pay for prohibiting something that serves a useful
purpose.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>From: "M. J. Powell"
>Date: 2/11/04 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>>>From: "M. J. Powell"
>>>landed
>
>snip
>>>
>>>Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
>>>then? If someone had put a quick question to the lead a/c what would
>>>have been lost? Your radio frequencies were changed for each mission? It
>>>would have been amazing if the enemy heard the transmissions. If he had,
>>>what would he have gained? There wouldn't have been time to DF you. And
>>>he knew where you were anyway.
>>>
>>>Mike
>>>--
>>>M.J.Powell
>>
>>
>>Of course they knew we were there. They were shooting at us. And every one
>of
>>us thought just that. But we can't have a situation where radio silence must
>be
>>kept unless someone thinks other wise. In that case everyone would be
>blabbing
>>over the radio all the damn time. So the rule is trict and allows for no
>>exceptions. Radio silence. Always radio silence. No exceptions. No matter
>>what. It is the way we were trained. and that is how we flew our missions.
>For
>>better or for worse.
>
>Weeelll......I hate to criticise, but surely real emergencies can take
>priority? The formation captain (?) can close down any chatter, as on an
>intercom.
>
>To lose a couple of planes and crews for want of a short comment, seems
>a very high price to pay for prohibiting something that serves a useful
>purpose.
>
>Mike
>--
>M.J.Powell


I agree. But Ike thought otherwise. (sigh)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>>From: "M. J. Powell"
>>Date: 2/11/04 7:54 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>>>>Subject: Re: Radio Silence and Death over Frankfort
>>>>From: "M. J. Powell"
>>>>landed
>>
>>snip
>>>>
>>>>Art, I would like to ask some stupid questions. Why keep radio silence
>>>>then? If someone had put a quick question to the lead a/c what would
>>>>have been lost? Your radio frequencies were changed for each mission? It
>>>>would have been amazing if the enemy heard the transmissions. If he had,
>>>>what would he have gained? There wouldn't have been time to DF you. And
>>>>he knew where you were anyway.
>>>>
>>>>Mike
>>>>--
>>>>M.J.Powell
>>>
>>>
>>>Of course they knew we were there. They were shooting at us. And every one
>>of
>>>us thought just that. But we can't have a situation where radio silence must
>>be
>>>kept unless someone thinks other wise. In that case everyone would be
>>blabbing
>>>over the radio all the damn time. So the rule is trict and allows for no
>>>exceptions. Radio silence. Always radio silence. No exceptions. No matter
>>>what. It is the way we were trained. and that is how we flew our missions.
>>For
>>>better or for worse.
>>
>>Weeelll......I hate to criticise, but surely real emergencies can take
>>priority? The formation captain (?) can close down any chatter, as on an
>>intercom.
>>
>>To lose a couple of planes and crews for want of a short comment, seems
>>a very high price to pay for prohibiting something that serves a useful
>>purpose.
>>
>>Mike
>>--
>>M.J.Powell
>
>
>I agree. But Ike thought otherwise. (sigh)

I wonder who his Chief Signals Officer was?

Mike
--
M.J.Powell