"Bush's drills with the Alabama Guard confirmed"

[Mike]

Bush's drills with the Alabama Guard confirmed
The White House yesterday released military records that it said
demonstrate conclusively that President Bush completed the required
drills leading to an honorable discharge from the Texas Air National
Guard in 1973.
at http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040211-121217-6595r.htm

[Cub Driver]

There's a page on this subject at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm

I'll be updating it on March 1 to incorporate the pay records recently
published by the White House.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Kevin Brooks]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> There's a page on this subject at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
>
> I'll be updating it on March 1 to incorporate the pay records recently
> published by the White House.

Heh. You might consider adding the video of today's little spat on Capitol
Hill, when the Congressman from Ohio tried to snare Colin Powell into the
issue during his testimony before a committee. Powell's repeated and
forceful, "You don't want to go there, Mr. Brown" was a hoot. It is the
first time I can recall seeing Powell appear to be using visible and tenuous
restraint--I thought he was gonna bust loose on the guy. The good
congressman finally apparently got the message and took Powell's advice.

Brooks

>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Krztalizer]

I thought the main issue wasn't that he served, but that he didn't complete his
obligation of service? During the press conference, the press secretary kept
affirming that he had drilled and it was all right in the records he had
provided - then he said something about 'nine days' for the year in question
and I thought, Isn't the guard requirement "one weekend a month and two weeks a
year"?

I think all of this stuff is ancient history, but its also the politics in
America today. Its all about tearing down people instead of finding solutions
to problems. That's what makes it all so distasteful - more effort, campaign
money, taxes, and most importantly, unrecoverable *time* gets poured into
hacking at political opponents than ever gets directed at the long term issues
that face us all.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> I thought the main issue wasn't that he served, but that he didn't
complete his
> obligation of service? During the press conference, the press secretary
kept
> affirming that he had drilled and it was all right in the records he had
> provided - then he said something about 'nine days' for the year in
question
> and I thought, Isn't the guard requirement "one weekend a month and two
weeks a
> year"?

Only in general terms. You have to get a certain number of "points" to have
a good year (or that is the way it has been since at least the early
1980's). The training calendar is based upon 48 UTA's (unit training
assemblies, or weekend drills in most but not all cases--the usual breakdown
is four four-hour UTA's per weekend), with each giving a one point credit.
Different units and commanders arrange the schedule to suit mission and
training requirements; if you have a MUTA-5 (where you show up on Frdiay
night in addition to the weekend), you have to take a UTA off of another
weekend--it is not uncommon for units to have a month in the schedule with
no drills. A reservist also gets one point for every active duty day,
including his 15 days (for the NG--14 in the USAR last I heard) annual
training period. But some units/personnel break up their AT periods to
support mission requirements--you may do a seven days here, and eight days
two months later. Some units have "year around AT", where each individual
soldier/airman is scheduled to attend his AT based upon unit requirements
(common in higher supporting units and admin positions). Then there are the
"other" active duty days--"Cut orders for LT Shmedlap to perform four days
of active duty next month so he can attend the EEO conference"--at one point
per day. Finally, there are flying training assemblies--extra UTA's
exclusively reserved for flight personnel to maintain proficiency. And to
make things more complicated--yes, the commanders can authorize personnel to
make up missed duty periods, either before or after the fact, with
"equivalent training" periods--which is apparently what GWB did towards the
close of his time in uniform, making up for previously missed duty periods.
And no, that kind of treatment is not uncommon--we allowed PFC's to perform
ET when it was justified in our opinion.

Brooks

>
> I think all of this stuff is ancient history, but its also the politics in
> America today. Its all about tearing down people instead of finding
solutions
> to problems. That's what makes it all so distasteful - more effort,
campaign
> money, taxes, and most importantly, unrecoverable *time* gets poured into
> hacking at political opponents than ever gets directed at the long term
issues
> that face us all.
>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos
to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> I thought the main issue wasn't that he served, but that he didn't
complete his
> obligation of service? During the press conference, the press secretary
kept
> affirming that he had drilled and it was all right in the records he had
> provided - then he said something about 'nine days' for the year in
question
> and I thought, Isn't the guard requirement "one weekend a month and two
weeks a
> year"?

The 2 weeks is optional.

Besides that, Kerry got an early out and then failed to show up for his
Reserve obligation.

> I think all of this stuff is ancient history, but its also the politics in
> America today. Its all about tearing down people instead of finding
solutions
> to problems. That's what makes it all so distasteful - more effort,
campaign
> money, taxes, and most importantly, unrecoverable *time* gets poured into
> hacking at political opponents than ever gets directed at the long term
issues
> that face us all.

Kerry opened this can of worms and now he will have to live with them.

[tscottme]

Mike > wrote in message
om...
> Bush's drills with the Alabama Guard confirmed
> The White House yesterday released military records that it said
> demonstrate conclusively that President Bush completed the required
> drills leading to an honorable discharge from the Texas Air National
> Guard in 1973.
> at http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040211-121217-6595r.htm

So who will be the first Democrat to demand proof it wasn't GWB's clone
that was in the Guard?
--

Scott
--------
"AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEE!!!!!"
Gov. Howard Dean

[John S. Shinal]

"Kevin Brooks" wrote:
>first time I can recall seeing Powell appear to be using visible and tenuous
>restraint--I thought he was gonna bust loose on the guy. The good
>congressman finally apparently got the message and took Powell's advice.

The tale is that CP once dropped the bomb on none other than
Norman Schwarzkopf - Norm being known for his own tirades, apparently
was quite impressed by Powell's seldom-vented ire.




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---

[Fred the Red Shirt]

(Krztalizer) wrote in message >...
> I thought the main issue wasn't that he served, but that he didn't complete his
> obligation of service?

There were three points of contention that weren't on their face
absurd.

1) He took a position in AL working on the Senatorial Campaign staff
for a family frend. (Some sources say he was in charge which seems
unlikely given his age). So he applied for a tranfer from the TX
NG to the AL NG. That transfer was denied, but he went to AL and
(one supposes) wokred on the campaign anyhow. It is argued that
since he did not return to duty in TX when his transfer to the
AL unit was denied, he was AWOL. Sometime later, his commander
in TX was contacted because he had not sent in a rating for GWB
and his commander wrote back saying the GWB had transferred to an
AL unit. Now, if in the opinion of his TX commander Bush was AWOL
one supposes that he might have said so. I infer from this that the
TX commander gave Bush permission to go to AL in anticipation that
the transfer would be approved and either was never informed
that the transfer was turned down. THere is no evidence that
Bush was ordered to return to duty in TX befor he actually did.
Now, if he was paid for serving in the AL guard then I guess
that at some point his tranfser was approved even if documents
directly confirming that have not surfaced.

Even if there was no evidence that he put time in while he was
in AL, without evidence that his TX commander had called him back,
it would seem that he did nothing worse that take advantage of
having fallen through the cracks for a few months.

2) While he was in AL Bush was grounded for 'failure to accomplish'
his annual physical exam. THe document I have seen that states
this also lists a scond officer grounded for the same reason. Now,
I've had civilian physical examinations and never thought of them
as much of an accomplishment but there's military lingo for you.
Some cite this as evidence that Bush was AWOL saying he didn't
show up for his exam as ordered. Problem is, there is no evidence
that he was ordered to 'accomplish' that exam. It may be that
since he was with a non-flying unit there was no reason to
maintain his flying status, but he remained eligible until that
date.

3) He was discharged form the guard a few months early so he could attend
school that Fall. That may have been leaving the guard earlier than
normal, but if he had enough points to his credit, it surely was not
a failure to fulfill the obligation.

--

FF

[Kevin Brooks]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> (Krztalizer) wrote in message
>...
> > I thought the main issue wasn't that he served, but that he didn't
complete his
> > obligation of service?
>
> There were three points of contention that weren't on their face
> absurd.
>
> 1) He took a position in AL working on the Senatorial Campaign staff
> for a family frend. (Some sources say he was in charge which seems
> unlikely given his age). So he applied for a tranfer from the TX
> NG to the AL NG. That transfer was denied, but he went to AL and
> (one supposes) wokred on the campaign anyhow. It is argued that
> since he did not return to duty in TX when his transfer to the
> AL unit was denied, he was AWOL. Sometime later, his commander
> in TX was contacted because he had not sent in a rating for GWB
> and his commander wrote back saying the GWB had transferred to an
> AL unit. Now, if in the opinion of his TX commander Bush was AWOL
> one supposes that he might have said so. I infer from this that the
> TX commander gave Bush permission to go to AL in anticipation that
> the transfer would be approved and either was never informed
> that the transfer was turned down. THere is no evidence that
> Bush was ordered to return to duty in TX befor he actually did.
> Now, if he was paid for serving in the AL guard then I guess
> that at some point his tranfser was approved even if documents
> directly confirming that have not surfaced.

You have discounted another very real probability; he could indeed have
subsequently been allowed by his commander to conduct training with that
Alabama unit while still assigned to his TXANG unit--known nowadays as
"equivalent training", at least on the ARMG side of the NG house. Happens
quite frequently.

>
> Even if there was no evidence that he put time in while he was
> in AL, without evidence that his TX commander had called him back,
> it would seem that he did nothing worse that take advantage of
> having fallen through the cracks for a few months.

But there is evidence he performed duty in Alabama; though his worst
detractors refuse to admit it, he could only have received the dental exam
(which record was released yesterday) at that ALANG facility had be been in
a duty status.

>
> 2) While he was in AL Bush was grounded for 'failure to accomplish'
> his annual physical exam. THe document I have seen that states
> this also lists a scond officer grounded for the same reason. Now,
> I've had civilian physical examinations and never thought of them
> as much of an accomplishment but there's military lingo for you.
> Some cite this as evidence that Bush was AWOL saying he didn't
> show up for his exam as ordered. Problem is, there is no evidence
> that he was ordered to 'accomplish' that exam. It may be that
> since he was with a non-flying unit there was no reason to
> maintain his flying status, but he remained eligible until that
> date.

One of his fellow TXANG pilots has provided a more reasonable
explanation--the exams were given at the unit during a particular drill
period, and since this occured during the period he was drilling in Alabama,
he was not there to get it. The Alababma unit he was drilling with was a
non-flying outfit, so would have been unlikely to have had any flight
physicals scheduled at that location.

>
> 3) He was discharged form the guard a few months early so he could attend
> school that Fall. That may have been leaving the guard earlier than
> normal, but if he had enough points to his credit, it surely was not
> a failure to fulfill the obligation.

Exactly. And any way you cut it, his early release was no less acceptable
than that accorded to Kerry by his boss so that he could run for office and
spend his time trashing the efforts of those who were still in Vietnam.

Brooks
>
> --
>
> FF

[Cub Driver]

Given the excitement, I posted the update yesterday, along with pages
about the F-102A and National Guard training.

>There's a page on this subject at www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
>
>I'll be updating it on March 1 to incorporate the pay records recently
>published by the White House.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

On 12 Feb 2004 00:25:05 GMT, (Krztalizer) wrote:

>then he said something about 'nine days' for the year in question

Lt Bush's four years of "weekend warrior" service (the first two years
were all much better than that, though the average was certainly under
the 38 or 39 days you might expect at the rate of one weekend a month
plus two weeks "summer camp". See www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
for the breakdown.

This assumes that one point = one day, which of course is not certain.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>He was discharged form the guard a few months early so he could attend
> school that Fall.

In fact, he transferred to an inactive reserve unit, and he served six
months *longer* than his six-year obligation. One assumes this was a
quid pro quo for leaving the Texas ANG early. That is: one year of
inactive reserve to compensate for six months of ANG.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Bob McKellar]

Cub Driver wrote:

> On 12 Feb 2004 00:25:05 GMT, (Krztalizer) wrote:
>
> >then he said something about 'nine days' for the year in question
>
> Lt Bush's four years of "weekend warrior" service (the first two years
> were all much better than that, though the average was certainly under
> the 38 or 39 days you might expect at the rate of one weekend a month
> plus two weeks "summer camp". See www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
> for the breakdown.
>
> This assumes that one point = one day, which of course is not certain.
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

When I was a Naval reservist at the same time, a day of active duty (
"summer camp", and I did live in a tent on one!) was one point, but a 4
hour inactive duty drill was one point. This gave you 4 points per full
weekend.

A "normal" year would be 48 points inactive ( 12 weekends x 4 points each
) + 12 for the active duty ( 12, not 14 - we didn't get credit for a full
two weeks.)

Some folks, particularly aviators, could get a lot more points if the
worked at it.

You could also get points for other things, like taking correspondence
courses. I did that a lot when the Navy couldn't find anything useful for
me to do.

Bob McKellar

[OXMORON1]

Bob wrote:
>Some folks, particularly aviators, could get a lot more points if the
>worked at it.

At the time, most ANG flying personnel could get 36 Additional Flying Traning
Periods of 4 hours each. (one point each)

You had to fly to get the credit, if the a/c didn't go, no credit.

You had to average a minimum amount of time per AFTP. IIRC it was 2 hours for
prop /c and about .75 to 1 hour for jet a/c.

The AFTP could be used for cross country RON flights, one period out, one
period back the next day or go for a weekend fly Friday night, Saturday, back
on Sunday.

A lot of ANG units worked a Tuesday thru Saturday workweek with scheduled
Friday night flying to work on night hours or in the case of PR units night
photo.

In TAC Recce units the quarterly training requirements were about the same for
ANG vs Active Duty, IIRC.

Oxmoron
MFE
CRS/CSS

[Kevin Brooks]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
> On 12 Feb 2004 00:25:05 GMT, (Krztalizer) wrote:
>
> >then he said something about 'nine days' for the year in question
>
> Lt Bush's four years of "weekend warrior" service (the first two years
> were all much better than that, though the average was certainly under
> the 38 or 39 days you might expect at the rate of one weekend a month
> plus two weeks "summer camp". See www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
> for the breakdown.
>
> This assumes that one point = one day, which of course is not certain.

No, one point can be different periods of time. For inactive duty training
(i.e., weekend drills), one point means a minimum of four hours duty. The
usual breakdown is two points per day, but sometimes you get snookered by
the system and work a full day for one IDT point. Active duty days accrue at
one point per day. You'd have to break out the IDT and ADT points to
determine the likely "number of days". FYI, IDT points are also "capped"--an
individual can only earn X amount of points per year from IDT.

Brooks

>
>
> all the best -- Dan Ford
> email:
>
> see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Kevin Brooks]

"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Cub Driver wrote:
>
> > On 12 Feb 2004 00:25:05 GMT, (Krztalizer) wrote:
> >
> > >then he said something about 'nine days' for the year in question
> >
> > Lt Bush's four years of "weekend warrior" service (the first two years
> > were all much better than that, though the average was certainly under
> > the 38 or 39 days you might expect at the rate of one weekend a month
> > plus two weeks "summer camp". See www.warbirdforum.com/bushf102.htm
> > for the breakdown.
> >
> > This assumes that one point = one day, which of course is not certain.
> >
> > all the best -- Dan Ford
> > email:
> >
> > see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
> > and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com
>
> When I was a Naval reservist at the same time, a day of active duty (
> "summer camp", and I did live in a tent on one!) was one point, but a 4
> hour inactive duty drill was one point. This gave you 4 points per full
> weekend.

Normally, yes. But the wording reads (at least on the Army side), a
*minimum* of four hours, and i have seen a single UTA last an entire day.
Sometimes it was necessary, but we generally avoided that to keep the
troopies happy.

>
> A "normal" year would be 48 points inactive ( 12 weekends x 4 points each
> ) + 12 for the active duty ( 12, not 14 - we didn't get credit for a full
> two weeks.)

Varies by service. The USAR gets (or was getting--they were looking at
changing this last I heard) 14 days for AT, while the ARNG gets 15.

>
> Some folks, particularly aviators, could get a lot more points if the
> worked at it.

On the Army and Air Force side, they have specially funded additional IDT
periods for flight proficiency requirements.

>
> You could also get points for other things, like taking correspondence
> courses. I did that a lot when the Navy couldn't find anything useful for
> me to do.

Unfortunately, those fall under the annual IDT point cap (50 rings a bell),
so at some point they stop paying off in terms of credited retirement
points.

Brooks

>
> Bob McKellar
>

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message >...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (Krztalizer) wrote in message
> >...
> > > I thought the main issue wasn't that he served, but that he didn't
> complete his
> > > obligation of service?
> >
> > There were three points of contention that weren't on their face
> > absurd.
> >
> > 1) He took a position in AL working on the Senatorial Campaign staff
> > for a family frend. (Some sources say he was in charge which seems
> > unlikely given his age). So he applied for a tranfer from the TX
> > NG to the AL NG. That transfer was denied, ...
> > THere is no evidence that
> > Bush was ordered to return to duty in TX befor he actually did.
> > Now, if he was paid for serving in the AL guard then I guess
> > that at some point his tranfser was approved even if documents
> > directly confirming that have not surfaced.
>
> You have discounted another very real probability; he could indeed have
> subsequently been allowed by his commander to conduct training with that
> Alabama unit while still assigned to his TXANG unit--known nowadays as
> "equivalent training", at least on the ARMG side of the NG house. Happens
> quite frequently.

Evidently it was known as "equivalent training" back then too:

http://www.talion.com/miss.gif


--

FF