Epoxy is really crap for homebuilding

[Sliker]

Lately I've had to use the stuff to work with some pre-made parts that
were made from epoxy. Aeropoxy. Stinky!
Epoxy is more viscose, so it doesn't wet out the cloth as well. It is
more toxic, especially some of the older formulas. And smells
horrible. And why did so many homebuilders get stuck using that crap?
Rutan. Those hot wired, foam core wings and other parts to be exact.
The type of foam that can be hotwired, dissolves when in contact with
vinyl ester or polyester resin. So they had to use epoxy. What they
should have done is figured out another way to cut the foam cores with
something like a wire saw, and used polyurethane foam and vinyl ester
resin. Plus, epoxy is expensive, and much more flameable. So it's use
in aircraft has so many negatives, it should never have been used.
Rutan really put one on us with the epoxy legacy.

[Reggie]

There are some reasons, this URL supplies some of them.
Especially note the repair risks and the liquid styrene risks


http://www.redrockstore.com/resin.htm


A short reprint of the major points follows, but a review of the total
article suggested


Epoxy resin is known in the marine industry for its incredible
toughness and bonding strength.
Quality epoxy resins stick to other materials with 2,000-p.s.i. vs.
only 500-p.s.i. for
vinylester resins and even less for polyesters.
In areas that must be able to flex and strain WITH the fibers
without micro-fracturing,
epoxy resins offer much greater capability.
Cured epoxy tends to be very resistant to moisture absorption.
Epoxy resin will bond dissimilar or already-cured materials which
makes repair work that is
very reliable and strong.
Epoxy actually bonds to all sorts of fibers very well and also offers
excellent results
in repair-ability when it is used to bond two different materials
together.
Initally, epoxy resin is much more difficult to work with and
requires additional skill
by the technicians who handle it.



Vinylester resins are stronger than polyester resins and cheaper than
epoxy resins.
Vinylester resins utilize a polyester resin type of cross-linking
molecules in the
bonding process.
Vinylester is a hybrid form of polyester resin which has been
toughened with
epoxy molecules within the main moleculer structure.
Vinyester resins offer better resistance to moisture absorption than
polyester resins
but it's downside is in the use of liquid styrene to thin it out (not
good to breath that stuff)
and its sensitivity to atmospheric moisture and temperature.
Sometimes it won't cure if the atmospheric conditions are not right.
It also has difficulty in bonding dissimilar and already-cured
materials.
It is not unusual for repair patches on vinylester resin canoes to
delaminate or peel off.
As vinylester resin ages, it becomes a different resin (due to it's
continual curing as it ages)
so new vinylester resin sometimes resists bonding to your older
canoe,
or will bond and then later peel off at a bad time.
It is also known that vinylester resins bond very well to fiberglass,
but offer a poor bond to kevlar and carbon fibers due to the nature of
those two more exotic fibers.
Due to the touchy nature of vinylester resin, careful surface
preparation is necessary if reasonable adhesion is desired for any
repair work.

[Maxwell[_2_]]

"Reggie" > wrote in message
...

Isn't cure time also a big factor in more complex lay-ups?

[Bob Kuykendall]

On May 20, 9:52*am, "Maxwell" <luv2^fly99@cox.^net> wrote:
> "Reggie" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> Isn't cure time also a big factor in more complex lay-ups?

It is, but it's not a strong factor either way in the rant at hand.
While commercially available vinylesters are generally pre-promoted
for a working time of around 20 minutes, formulators can (for a price)
supply un-promoted resin, and can also supply it promoted for working
times up to about 2 hours.

Thanks, Bob K.

[Peter Dohm]

"Sliker" > wrote in message
...
> Lately I've had to use the stuff to work with some pre-made parts that
> were made from epoxy. Aeropoxy. Stinky!
> Epoxy is more viscose, so it doesn't wet out the cloth as well. It is
> more toxic, especially some of the older formulas. And smells
> horrible. And why did so many homebuilders get stuck using that crap?
> Rutan. Those hot wired, foam core wings and other parts to be exact.
> The type of foam that can be hotwired, dissolves when in contact with
> vinyl ester or polyester resin. So they had to use epoxy. What they
> should have done is figured out another way to cut the foam cores with
> something like a wire saw, and used polyurethane foam and vinyl ester
> resin. Plus, epoxy is expensive, and much more flameable. So it's use
> in aircraft has so many negatives, it should never have been used.
> Rutan really put one on us with the epoxy legacy.

There are really a couple of issues here.

First, I really don't like the hot wire method of forming foam because of
the fumes that result; but I no longer recall which of the current materials
were available in those days. However, I do seem to recall that the
so-called "Safety-Poxy" which Burt recommended was hailed, at the time, as
something of a breakthrough in both safety and ease of use in a relatively
wide range of working environments.

Second, despite some later crumbling about the dimensioning of interior
bulkheads, Burt's idea was that the Vari-Eze should be extremely easy and
quick to construct. IIRC, two people were supposed to be able to do it in
less than a month--or about 300 man hours total time. When the results
drastically deviated from that concept, Burt went on tour and showed how it
was done. I had the privelege of attenting one of his "hands-on" seminar
demonstrations in Fort Lauderdale at the time--and it was abundantly clear
that, if you learned to work the way he worked, the problems were minimized.

Peter

P.S.: I do agree that there are far better materials available today, and
also better cutting methods; but Burt my point is simply that Burt is not
culpable!

[BobR]

On May 20, 9:27*am, Sliker > wrote:
> Lately I've had to use the stuff to work with some pre-made parts that
> were made from epoxy. Aeropoxy. Stinky!
> Epoxy is more viscose, so it doesn't wet out the cloth as well. It is
> more toxic, especially some of the older formulas. And smells
> horrible. And why did so many homebuilders get stuck using that crap?
> Rutan. Those hot wired, foam core wings and other parts to be exact.
> The type of foam that can be hotwired, dissolves when in contact with
> vinyl ester or polyester resin. So they had to use epoxy. What they
> should have done is figured out another way to cut the foam cores with
> something like a wire saw, and used polyurethane foam and vinyl ester
> resin. Plus, epoxy is expensive, and much more flameable. So it's use
> in aircraft has so many negatives, it should never have been used.
> Rutan really put one on us *with the epoxy legacy.

I can't quite figure out what the heck you are talking about. I have
worked with epoxy for the last 10 years including Aeropoxy, E-Z Poxy,
West and Hysol. I can not understand you comment about the "stinky"
part at all. I will totally agree with you that Vinyl Ester stinks to
the high heavens but have never experienced any such problem with
epoxy formulations. I can't even stand to work with completed parts
made using the Vinyl Ester but not so with epoxy parts.

I also can't agree with the Toxic comment regarding epoxy since it is
much less toxic than either Vinyl Ester or Polyester Resins.

Guess this is just another case of beauty being in the eye of the
beholder. I rather enjoy working with composites and prefer them to
working with metals.

[bizguy]

On May 20, 3:34 pm, BobR > wrote:
> On May 20, 9:27 am, Sliker > wrote:
>
> > Lately I've had to use the stuff to work with some pre-made parts that
> > were made from epoxy. Aeropoxy. Stinky!
> > Epoxy is more viscose, so it doesn't wet out the cloth as well. It is
> > more toxic, especially some of the older formulas. And smells
> > horrible. And why did so many homebuilders get stuck using that crap?
> > Rutan. Those hot wired, foam core wings and other parts to be exact.
> > The type of foam that can be hotwired, dissolves when in contact with
> > vinyl ester or polyester resin. So they had to use epoxy. What they
> > should have done is figured out another way to cut the foam cores with
> > something like a wire saw, and used polyurethane foam and vinyl ester
> > resin. Plus, epoxy is expensive, and much more flameable. So it's use
> > in aircraft has so many negatives, it should never have been used.
> > Rutan really put one on us with the epoxy legacy.
>
> I can't quite figure out what the heck you are talking about. I have
> worked with epoxy for the last 10 years including Aeropoxy, E-Z Poxy,
> West and Hysol. I can not understand you comment about the "stinky"
> part at all. I will totally agree with you that Vinyl Ester stinks to
> the high heavens but have never experienced any such problem with
> epoxy formulations. I can't even stand to work with completed parts
> made using the Vinyl Ester but not so with epoxy parts.
>
> I also can't agree with the Toxic comment regarding epoxy since it is
> much less toxic than either Vinyl Ester or Polyester Resins.
>
> Guess this is just another case of beauty being in the eye of the
> beholder. I rather enjoy working with composites and prefer them to
> working with metals.

For me health is a major issue. I am extremely allergic to it.

I would enjoy working on a plane, but now most all plans specify its
use.

[Gig 601Xl Builder]

bizguy wrote:

> For me health is a major issue. I am extremely allergic to it.
>
> I would enjoy working on a plane, but now most all plans specify its
> use.

Plenty of metal planes out there that you don't have to use it.

[BobR]

On May 20, 4:39*pm, bizguy > wrote:
> On May 20, 3:34 pm, BobR > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 20, 9:27 am, Sliker > wrote:
>
> > > Lately I've had to use the stuff to work with some pre-made parts that
> > > were made from epoxy. Aeropoxy. Stinky!
> > > Epoxy is more viscose, so it doesn't wet out the cloth as well. It is
> > > more toxic, especially some of the older formulas. And smells
> > > horrible. And why did so many homebuilders get stuck using that crap?
> > > Rutan. Those hot wired, foam core wings and other parts to be exact.
> > > The type of foam that can be hotwired, dissolves when in contact with
> > > vinyl ester or polyester resin. So they had to use epoxy. What they
> > > should have done is figured out another way to cut the foam cores with
> > > something like a wire saw, and used polyurethane foam and vinyl ester
> > > resin. Plus, epoxy is expensive, and much more flameable. So it's use
> > > in aircraft has so many negatives, it should never have been used.
> > > Rutan really put one on us *with the epoxy legacy.
>
> > I can't quite figure out what the heck you are talking about. *I have
> > worked with epoxy for the last 10 years including Aeropoxy, E-Z Poxy,
> > West and Hysol. *I can not understand you comment about the "stinky"
> > part at all. *I will totally agree with you that Vinyl Ester stinks to
> > the high heavens but have never experienced any such problem with
> > epoxy formulations. *I can't even stand to work with completed parts
> > made using the Vinyl Ester but not so with epoxy parts.
>
> > I also can't agree with the Toxic comment regarding epoxy since it is
> > much less toxic than either Vinyl Ester or Polyester Resins.
>
> > Guess this is just another case of beauty being in the eye of the
> > beholder. *I rather enjoy working with composites and prefer them to
> > working with metals.
>
> For me health is a major issue. *I am extremely allergic to it.
>
> I would enjoy working on a plane, but now most all plans specify its
> use.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

To which one? Vinyl Ester has caused substantial alergic problems but
I haven't seen anyone experience the same with the epoxy
formulations. In any case, I can understand your problem. I have
received a couple of parts built with the Vinyl Ester and even sanding
it cause symptoms similar to asthma but I have never experienced any
problems with epoxy and I rarely use gloves when working with it.

[BobR]

On May 20, 4:42*pm, Gig 601Xl Builder >
wrote:
> bizguy wrote:
> > For me health is a major issue. *I am extremely allergic to it.
>
> > I would enjoy working on a plane, but now most all plans specify its
> > use.
>
> Plenty of metal planes out there that you don't have to use it.

Or tube and fabric. Don't forget wooden plans such as the Falco.

[Sliker[_3_]]

good points, but I find the odor of vinyl ester no where near as bad
as that Aeropoxy I've been using, with it's amonia based hardener. Man
that stuff is nasty! The styene in the vinyl ester and poly ester has
a sort of sweet smell to it I find not that objectionable. Epoxy does
seem to be more of a universal bonding agent. It definitely sticks to
more substances than vinyl ester does. And it's strength is higher,
but the thing is, it's higher than it needs to be,. I remember when I
first learned about composites, and the rule was the strength is in
the fiber, not the resin. So once you get a resin that will cure hard,
it's done it's job, and the fibers are the strength, whether it be
glass cloth, kevlar, ect... Another annoyance with epoxy is it takes
forever to cure. What a pain to deal with that. The peeling that
vinyl ester does as it ages is probably due to it being outside in the
weather and water in a marine environment. A plane made from it,
protected with paint and in a hangar, would probably never encounter
those issues. So it's ideal for that environment. Plus it was
developed to make underground fuel storage tanks by Dow Chemical. So
it's use as a fuel tank should never be a problem. I've seen Lancair
builders having to coat the inside of their fuel tanks with some type
of reddish rubbery looking stuff. So I guess epoxy isn't go great for
fuel tanks. Another reason to stay away from the toxic stuff in
airplanes.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 09:19:25 -0700 (PDT), Reggie
> wrote:

>
>
> There are some reasons, this URL supplies some of them.
>Especially note the repair risks and the liquid styrene risks
>
>
>http://www.redrockstore.com/resin.htm
>
>
>A short reprint of the major points follows, but a review of the total
>article suggested
>
>
>Epoxy resin is known in the marine industry for its incredible
>toughness and bonding strength.
>Quality epoxy resins stick to other materials with 2,000-p.s.i. vs.
>only 500-p.s.i. for
>vinylester resins and even less for polyesters.
> In areas that must be able to flex and strain WITH the fibers
>without micro-fracturing,
>epoxy resins offer much greater capability.
>Cured epoxy tends to be very resistant to moisture absorption.
>Epoxy resin will bond dissimilar or already-cured materials which
>makes repair work that is
>very reliable and strong.
> Epoxy actually bonds to all sorts of fibers very well and also offers
>excellent results
>in repair-ability when it is used to bond two different materials
>together.
> Initally, epoxy resin is much more difficult to work with and
>requires additional skill
>by the technicians who handle it.
>
>
>
>Vinylester resins are stronger than polyester resins and cheaper than
>epoxy resins.
> Vinylester resins utilize a polyester resin type of cross-linking
>molecules in the
>bonding process.
> Vinylester is a hybrid form of polyester resin which has been
>toughened with
>epoxy molecules within the main moleculer structure.
> Vinyester resins offer better resistance to moisture absorption than
>polyester resins
>but it's downside is in the use of liquid styrene to thin it out (not
>good to breath that stuff)
> and its sensitivity to atmospheric moisture and temperature.
> Sometimes it won't cure if the atmospheric conditions are not right.
> It also has difficulty in bonding dissimilar and already-cured
>materials.
> It is not unusual for repair patches on vinylester resin canoes to
>delaminate or peel off.
>As vinylester resin ages, it becomes a different resin (due to it's
>continual curing as it ages)
> so new vinylester resin sometimes resists bonding to your older
>canoe,
> or will bond and then later peel off at a bad time.
>It is also known that vinylester resins bond very well to fiberglass,
>but offer a poor bond to kevlar and carbon fibers due to the nature of
>those two more exotic fibers.
> Due to the touchy nature of vinylester resin, careful surface
>preparation is necessary if reasonable adhesion is desired for any
>repair work.

[Sliker[_3_]]

Can't figure it out!!!?? you don't think the odor of amonia is stinky?
I hate to say it, but breathing that epoxy or some other substances
has burned out your olfactory nerves if you don't find Aeropoxy
objectionable. Although, I have used epoxies that smell like the stuff
in those 5 minute tubes. It;'s not that bad. And I just ordered a
different brand, hoping it will not have that amonia odor to it. And
my Aeropoxy has sat around for a while, and the hardner has turned a
deep red color, so all my layups are now deep red. I've read the
manufactures info on that, and they say that's a normal aging effect
of the hardner and dosen't affect the strength. But I wonder if it
make the smell worse.. hmm..

On Tue, 20 May 2008 13:34:58 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> wrote:

>
>I can't quite figure out what the heck you are talking about. I have
>worked with epoxy for the last 10 years including Aeropoxy, E-Z Poxy,
>West and Hysol. I can not understand you comment about the "stinky"
>part at all. I will totally agree with you that Vinyl Ester stinks to
>the high heavens but have never experienced any such problem with
>epoxy formulations. I can't even stand to work with completed parts
>made using the Vinyl Ester but not so with epoxy parts.
>
>I also can't agree with the Toxic comment regarding epoxy since it is
>much less toxic than either Vinyl Ester or Polyester Resins.
>
>Guess this is just another case of beauty being in the eye of the
>beholder. I rather enjoy working with composites and prefer them to
>working with metals.

[Sliker[_3_]]

On Tue, 20 May 2008 14:39:35 -0700 (PDT), bizguy
> wrote:


>
>For me health is a major issue. I am extremely allergic to it.
>
>I would enjoy working on a plane, but now most all plans specify its
>use.
>
>
Epoxy is the one with the allergy problem. You could probably work
with vinyl ester, and all the Glasairs are made from it, and some
other designs. They say they've not had one instance of anyone being
allergic to vinyl ester resin. Although I know of one builder who
claims to have become sensitized to it. But I suspect it's a lie to
cover up their getting burned out on the project very early and
wanting a good excuse as to why they got rid of it.

[Sliker[_3_]]

On Tue, 20 May 2008 16:42:04 -0500, Gig 601Xl Builder
> wrote:

>bizguy wrote:
>
>> For me health is a major issue. I am extremely allergic to it.
>>
>> I would enjoy working on a plane, but now most all plans specify its
>> use.
>
>Plenty of metal planes out there that you don't have to use it.

Yes, and aluminum is a heck of a lot lighter when the part is
finished. I've read in a Glasair, if it were built in aluminum, it
would weigh 400 lbs lighter. That's a typical penalty for building in
regular glass/foam/resin.

[Sliker[_3_]]

On Tue, 20 May 2008 09:19:25 -0700 (PDT), Reggie
> wrote:

>
>
> There are some reasons, this URL supplies some of them.
>Especially note the repair risks and the liquid styrene risks
>
>
>http://www.redrockstore.com/resin.htm
>
>
>A short reprint of the major points follows, but a review of the total
>article suggested
>
>
>Epoxy resin is known in the marine industry for its incredible
>toughness and bonding strength.
>Quality epoxy resins stick to other materials with 2,000-p.s.i. vs.
>only 500-p.s.i. for
>vinylester resins and even less for polyesters.
> In areas that must be able to flex and strain WITH the fibers
>without micro-fracturing,
>epoxy resins offer much greater capability.
>Cured epoxy tends to be very resistant to moisture absorption.
>Epoxy resin will bond dissimilar or already-cured materials which
>makes repair work that is
>very reliable and strong.
> Epoxy actually bonds to all sorts of fibers very well and also offers
>excellent results
>in repair-ability when it is used to bond two different materials
>together.
> Initally, epoxy resin is much more difficult to work with and
>requires additional skill
>by the technicians who handle it.
>
>
>
>Vinylester resins are stronger than polyester resins and cheaper than
>epoxy resins.
> Vinylester resins utilize a polyester resin type of cross-linking
>molecules in the
>bonding process.
> Vinylester is a hybrid form of polyester resin which has been
>toughened with
>epoxy molecules within the main moleculer structure.
> Vinyester resins offer better resistance to moisture absorption than
>polyester resins
>but it's downside is in the use of liquid styrene to thin it out (not
>good to breath that stuff)
> and its sensitivity to atmospheric moisture and temperature.
> Sometimes it won't cure if the atmospheric conditions are not right.
> It also has difficulty in bonding dissimilar and already-cured
>materials.
> It is not unusual for repair patches on vinylester resin canoes to
>delaminate or peel off.
>As vinylester resin ages, it becomes a different resin (due to it's
>continual curing as it ages)
> so new vinylester resin sometimes resists bonding to your older
>canoe,
> or will bond and then later peel off at a bad time.
>It is also known that vinylester resins bond very well to fiberglass,
>but offer a poor bond to kevlar and carbon fibers due to the nature of
>those two more exotic fibers.
> Due to the touchy nature of vinylester resin, careful surface
>preparation is necessary if reasonable adhesion is desired for any
>repair work.

That patch peeling you mentioned, I've seen that happen. I used to
keep a boat on a hydrohoist, which had twin tanks made from polyester
resin. I did a repair on it with vinyl ester, and after years of
sitting in the sun, it did just what you mentioned. It turned a brown
and started peeling. Does polyester resin do that? Might be a better
substance for patching and repair work. I've made some laminations
using carbon fiber in vinyl ester, and the parts came out great. No
problems at all. Unless the parts won't age well. Time will tell.
But in these instances, I was creating the parts from scratch, with
the carbon fiber totally emmersed in the resin. Not trying to bond to
an existing carbon fiber part.

[BobR]

On May 20, 9:25*pm, Sliker > wrote:
> Can't figure it out!!!?? you don't think the odor of amonia is stinky?
> I hate to say it, but breathing that epoxy or some other substances
> has burned out your olfactory nerves if you don't find Aeropoxy
> objectionable. Although, I have used epoxies that smell like the stuff
> in those 5 minute tubes. It;'s not that bad. And I just ordered a
> different brand, hoping it will not have that amonia odor to it. And
> my Aeropoxy has sat around for a while, and the hardner has turned a
> deep red color, so all my layups are now deep red. I've read the
> manufactures info on that, and they say that's a normal aging effect
> of the hardner and dosen't affect the strength. But I wonder if it
> make the smell worse.. hmm..
>

You must be hypersensitive to the amonia smell because the only time I
have noticed it to any degree is if I took a deep whiff from the can.
Even then it is not overly strong. Even my wife, who has the overly
sensitive nose in our household doesn't mind the epoxy odor. The red
coloration is simply an oxidation that occurs in the hardner over time
but hasn't caused any problems with the layups I have seen.

Clearly though, you don't like working with epoxy so my simple advice
would be DON"T. The fact that you don't like it though is not a valid
excuse for condemnation of all things composite or for degrading a
great designer who revolutionized homebuilt design and construction.


In the future if you hate to make a uncalled for comment, don't.

> On Tue, 20 May 2008 13:34:58 -0700 (PDT), BobR
>
>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >I can't quite figure out what the heck you are talking about. *I have
> >worked with epoxy for the last 10 years including Aeropoxy, E-Z Poxy,
> >West and Hysol. *I can not understand you comment about the "stinky"
> >part at all. *I will totally agree with you that Vinyl Ester stinks to
> >the high heavens but have never experienced any such problem with
> >epoxy formulations. *I can't even stand to work with completed parts
> >made using the Vinyl Ester but not so with epoxy parts.
>
> >I also can't agree with the Toxic comment regarding epoxy since it is
> >much less toxic than either Vinyl Ester or Polyester Resins.
>
> >Guess this is just another case of beauty being in the eye of the
> >beholder. *I rather enjoy working with composites and prefer them to
> >working with metals.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Sliker[_3_]]

On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> wrote:


you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
might be in the group of those who hail the stuff. But I can't get by
it's negatives. And am amazed at how many homebuilders are willing to
put up with the stuff. And to top it off, it's twice as expensive. The
only part of the vinyl ester resin I don't like is the DMA accelerator
that is added to it when it's promoted. And it's amonia based. But the
promotion is only done when a new batch of resin is promoted, not that
often for me. With epoxies, you get to smell amonia every time you use
the stuff. I'm stuck using epoxy for a while, due to some parts I have
that are made out of epoxy, and it's needed to bond them to the
fuselage. Epoxy will stick to vinyl ester, but not the other way
around. So I've heard. I also bought one of those baggage pods the EZ
guys mount to the wings ( or draggage pods ). And they are all epoxy,
and require quite a few layups out of epoxy. So that's where I'm
really getting into using the stuff. Fortunately, I'm nearly finished,
and can go back to using vinyl ester and it's nice sweet smell. I'm
mounting the EZ pod on the belly of my homebuilt (just one) with the
curvature on the bottom, instead of the top like the EZ's mount them.


>You must be hypersensitive to the amonia smell because the only time I
>have noticed it to any degree is if I took a deep whiff from the can.
>Even then it is not overly strong. Even my wife, who has the overly
>sensitive nose in our household doesn't mind the epoxy odor. The red
>coloration is simply an oxidation that occurs in the hardner over time
>but hasn't caused any problems with the layups I have seen.
>
>Clearly though, you don't like working with epoxy so my simple advice
>would be DON"T. The fact that you don't like it though is not a valid
>excuse for condemnation of all things composite or for degrading a
>great designer who revolutionized homebuilt design and construction.
>
>
>In the future if you hate to make a uncalled for comment, don't.

[bizguy]

>
> > For me health is a major issue. I am extremely allergic to it.

>
> To which one?

Epoxy.

Allergic reactions to contact and also aromatics. Even 1-2% in paints
will cause reactions. Redness in skin, swelling in face and eyes to
point not able to see, extreme itching etc. It is the hardener, once
cured not a problem.

[BobR]

On May 21, 10:31*am, bizguy > wrote:
> > > For me health is a major issue. *I am extremely allergic to it.
>
> > To which one?
>
> Epoxy.
>
> Allergic reactions to contact and also aromatics. *Even 1-2% in paints
> will cause reactions. *Redness in skin, swelling in face and eyes to
> point not able to see, extreme itching etc. *It is the hardener, once
> cured not a problem.

You are the first that I have heard of with an allergic reaction to
Epoxy. Met several with reactions to Vinyl Ester. Odd how different
people have totally differing reactions to different things. Vinyl
Ester causes me problems with the dust from any sanding on the parts
but no such reaction from Epoxy. I only had one exposure to Vinyl
Ester in the pre-cure aromatics and had a similar reaction.

[BobR]

On May 20, 10:05*pm, Sliker > wrote:
> On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
>
> > wrote:
>
> you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
> wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
> might be in the group of those who hail the stuff. But I can't get by
> it's negatives. And am amazed at how many homebuilders are willing to
> put up with the stuff.

I will just have to assume that the smell is something that some have
a problem with while others don't You have a problem with EPOXY smell
and I have the same problem with the Vinyl Ester. If I had to do any
major work with the VE my wife and I both would have put and end to it
early on. Never have experienced your problems with the wet out and
the cure time is totally a factor of which hardner you use. I can
agree on some layups a shorter cure time would be nice but overall, I
have appreciated the longer cure times when working on larger
projects.

> And to top it off, it's twice as expensive. The
> only part of the vinyl ester resin I don't like is the DMA accelerator
> that is added to it when it's promoted. And it's amonia based. But the
> promotion is only done when a new batch of resin is promoted, not that
> often for me. With epoxies, you get to smell amonia every time you use
> the stuff. I'm stuck using epoxy for a while, due to some parts I have
> that are made out of epoxy, and it's needed to bond them to the
> fuselage. Epoxy will stick to vinyl ester, but not the other way
> around. So I've heard. I also bought one of those baggage pods the EZ
> guys mount to the wings ( or draggage pods ). And they are all epoxy,
> and require quite a few layups out of epoxy. So that's where I'm
> really getting into using the stuff. Fortunately, I'm nearly finished,
> and can go back to using vinyl ester and it's nice sweet smell. I'm
> mounting the EZ pod on the belly of my homebuilt (just one) with the
> curvature on the bottom, instead of the top like the EZ's mount them.
>
Get a good carbon filter mask, some gloves, and good ventilation.

GOOD LUCK and try to have fun anyway.

>
>
> >You must be hypersensitive to the amonia smell because the only time I
> >have noticed it to any degree is if I took a deep whiff from the can.
> >Even then it is not overly strong. *Even my wife, who has the overly
> >sensitive nose in our household doesn't mind the epoxy odor. *The red
> >coloration is simply an oxidation that occurs in the hardner over time
> >but hasn't caused any problems with the layups I have seen.
>
> >Clearly though, you don't like working with epoxy so my simple advice
> >would be DON"T. *The fact that you don't like it though is not a valid
> >excuse for condemnation of all things composite or for degrading a
> >great designer who revolutionized homebuilt design and construction.
>
> >In the future if you hate to make a uncalled for comment, don't.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Sliker" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> > wrote:
>
>
> you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
> wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
> might be in the group of those who hail the stuff.

There are lower viscosity epoxy resins designed for lamination / wetting
out...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[John Halpenny]

On May 21, 8:06*pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk At Wow Way
D0t C0m> wrote:
> "Sliker" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> > > wrote:
>
> > you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
> > wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
> > might be in the group of those who hail the stuff.
>
> There are lower viscosity epoxy resins designed for lamination / wetting
> out...

This site argues that epoxy is not a good choice for amphibian
aircraft

http://www.seawind.biz/techtalk.html
..scroll down to "Not all fibreglass is created equal"

John Halpenny

[BobR]

On May 21, 9:16*pm, John Halpenny > wrote:
> On May 21, 8:06*pm, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk At Wow Way
>
> D0t C0m> wrote:
> > "Sliker" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > > On Tue, 20 May 2008 19:51:36 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > you know if the stuff didn't smell so bad, or take so long to cure, or
> > > wet out the cloth a little better due to it's higher viscosity, I
> > > might be in the group of those who hail the stuff.
>
> > There are lower viscosity epoxy resins designed for lamination / wetting
> > out...
>
> This site argues that epoxy is not a good choice for amphibian
> aircraft
>
> http://www.seawind.biz/techtalk.html
> *..scroll down to "Not all fibreglass is created equal"
>
> John Halpenny

I read it and find it rather strange that epoxy is widely used for
boat construction and none of the boat supply sites that I have seen
ever made mention of any problems. I would think they would be quick
to point out such a major problem.

[Sliker]

On Wed, 21 May 2008 14:20:50 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> wrote:


>>
>Get a good carbon filter mask, some gloves, and good ventilation.
>
>GOOD LUCK and try to have fun anyway.
>

I've made peace with the stuff for now. I've got a fan pointed up at
the ceiling above where I'm working. It pushes the air downward over
my work area, carrying away the fumes, and me being upwind of it, I'm
not smelling anything.

I can tell the cured epoxy has more toughness than vinyl ester resin
does. Messing around with some leftover, cured epoxy, it kind of
reminds me of stainless steel. Not the brittle type of hardness some
cured resins have, but it feels very strong. And it does wet out
better when the temperature is warmer. It was up into the high 70's in
my shop yesterday, and it flows a lot better at that temp.

I got my pods from Gary Hunter, but noticed he doesn't respond to
emails. I've read other posts on the Canard Zone blog, and at least
one other EZ owner reported the same thing. Do you know if he's out of
the baggage pod business? If so, when I sell my plane, I may keep the
pod, since they aren't available anymore. Not sure if any other
company is making them.

Researching those pods, I ran across something interesting. It seems
if one wanted to build a Long EZ, the plans are available. By first
downloading the "openEZ" file, then purchasing the TERFCD, a complete
set of Long EZ plans is then aquired. The plans have to be taken to a
printer to get the full sized plans, but at least they are available.
I'd be inclinded to build a Cozy MK IV if a canard was in my future,
just to have the extra room. Although, with todays fuel prices, the
Long EZ, with it's smaller engine requirement might get popular again.
There was also a shareware version of the Aerocanard floating around
for a while, but it's been removed from the sites that had it. It
might be still out there somewhere, but from what I've read, it's not
a complete set of plans you could build one from. It's just to let
prospective builders look it over.

[BobR]

On May 22, 10:34*am, Sliker > wrote:
> On Wed, 21 May 2008 14:20:50 -0700 (PDT), BobR
>
> > wrote:
>
> >Get a good carbon filter mask, some gloves, and good ventilation.
>
> >GOOD LUCK and try to have fun anyway.
>
> I've made peace with the stuff for now. I've got a fan pointed up at
> the ceiling above where I'm working. It pushes the air downward over
> my work area, carrying away the fumes, and me being upwind of it, I'm
> not smelling anything.
>
> I can tell the cured epoxy has more toughness than vinyl ester resin
> does. Messing around with some leftover, cured epoxy, it kind of
> reminds me of stainless steel. Not the brittle type of hardness some
> cured resins have, but it feels very strong. And it does wet out
> better when the temperature is warmer. It was up into the high 70's in
> my shop yesterday, and it flows a lot better at that temp.
>

The temperature issue would also explain you problems with cure time
as well. Room temperature means warm, not cold. However, when the
temps rise into the 90's which was not uncommon for my working
environment, the slow cure epoxy was really really appreciated. When
I took the builders class on composites one of the demos performed by
the instructor was to use a hammer on cured blocks of both epoxy and
Vinyl Ester. The Vinyl Ester shattered into a thousand pieces while
there was no effect on the epoxy except for a small chip where the
hammer hit. Not sure if that is the same with all epoxy formulations.

> I got my pods from Gary Hunter, but noticed he doesn't respond to
> emails. I've read other posts on the Canard Zone blog, and at least
> one other EZ owner reported the same thing. Do you know if he's out of
> the baggage pod business? If so, when I sell my plane, I may keep the
> pod, since they aren't available anymore. Not sure if any other
> company is making them.
>

I know Gary but didn't know he was making pods. Haven't talked with
him in a very long time and haven't any idea what he is upto now.

> Researching those pods, I ran across something interesting. It seems
> if one wanted to build a Long EZ, the plans are available. By first
> downloading the "openEZ" file, then purchasing the TERFCD, a complete
> set of Long EZ plans is then aquired. The plans have to be taken to a
> printer to get the full sized plans, but at least they are available.
> I'd be inclinded to build a Cozy MK IV if a canard was in my future,
> just to have the extra room. Although, with todays fuel prices, the
> Long EZ, with it's smaller engine requirement might get popular again.
> There was also a shareware version of the Aerocanard floating around
> for a while, but it's been removed from the sites that had it. It
> might be still out there somewhere, but from what I've read, it's not
> a complete set of plans you could build one from. It's just to let
> prospective builders look it over.

I looked at the Velocity and the Cozy a long time ago before I started
on my project. I loved the look of the planes but after getting an
opportunity to flying in a Velocity once, I am glad I decided on a
more traditional tractor design. Nothing concrete to say against the
canards other than my personal preference. I just didn't like the
ground handling and the transition to and from flight mode of the
canards.

[BobR]

On May 22, 4:40*am, "Byron Covey" > wrote:
> Saying "epoxy" is analogous to saying "steel." *It isn't very specific.
>
> BJC
>

Very true. The number of formulations and the ability to program in
the desired characteristics desired in the completed product are
endless.

[Wayne Paul]

This thread has precipitated a lot of discussion on the Yahoo glidertech
news group
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/glidertech/

Wayne
HP-14 "Six Foxtrot"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

"BobR" > wrote in message
...
On May 22, 4:40 am, "Byron Covey" > wrote:
> Saying "epoxy" is analogous to saying "steel." It isn't very specific.
>
> BJC
>

Very true. The number of formulations and the ability to program in
the desired characteristics desired in the completed product are
endless.

[Sliker[_3_]]

On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:02:03 -0700 (PDT), BobR
> wrote:

>
>I looked at the Velocity and the Cozy a long time ago before I started
>on my project. I loved the look of the planes but after getting an
>opportunity to flying in a Velocity once, I am glad I decided on a
>more traditional tractor design. Nothing concrete to say against the
>canards other than my personal preference. I just didn't like the
>ground handling and the transition to and from flight mode of the
>canards.

True, most of the flight reports I read about the canards leave me not
so excited about the way they fly and handle. Nice flying qualities
sometimes seem to get forgotten. Several pilots that have flown the
Lancairs (2 seat versions) say they have a dead feel and not much fun
to fly. I've been building a Glasair for many years, and just a couple
of years ago I finally got to fly one. The ailerons were nice, but the
elevator felt kind of dead. Makes me want to keep the plane I have and
sell it when it's finished. No one will talk about that subject much,
probably out of fear of making their planes hard to sell. But it's not
such a great system to spend years on end building a plane, only to
find out it flies bad.

[BobR]

On May 22, 7:19*pm, Sliker > wrote:
> On Thu, 22 May 2008 15:02:03 -0700 (PDT), BobR
>
> > wrote:
>
> >I looked at the Velocity and the Cozy a long time ago before I started
> >on my project. *I loved the look of the planes but after getting an
> >opportunity to flying in a Velocity once, I am glad I decided on a
> >more traditional tractor design. *Nothing concrete to say against the
> >canards other than my personal preference. *I just didn't like the
> >ground handling and the transition to and from flight mode of the
> >canards.
>
> True, most of the flight reports I read about the canards leave me not
> so excited about the way they fly and handle. Nice flying qualities
> sometimes seem to get forgotten. Several pilots that have flown the
> Lancairs (2 seat versions) say they have a dead feel and not much fun
> to fly. I've been building a Glasair for many years, and just a couple
> of years ago I finally got to fly one. The ailerons were nice, but the
> elevator felt kind of dead. Makes me want to keep the plane I have and
> sell it when it's finished. *No one will talk about that subject much,
> probably out of fear of making their planes hard to sell. But it's not
> such *a great system to spend years on end building a plane, only to
> find out it flies bad.

I have flown two versions of the Kis Cruiser which I am building and
found it to be a very predictable but not the most exciting plane to
fly. On the other hand, I wasn't really looking for an exciting plane
so much as a good cross country plane. Even at that, the performance
figures are good and it is not so large that it flys like a big boat
either. With homebuilts though, you may find measurable differences
in flying qualities between copies of the same aircraft. An example
can be found with different builders of the KIS. Some have determined
that they wanted more elevator control and added a couple of inches to
the trailing edge of their elevators.

I agree with you that spending years building only to find out the
plane you built is not the plane you expected is a very bad deal. I
know at least one RV-6 builder who spent years building a very
beautiful airplane. He put on about a dozen hours of the initial
flight testing and immediately put the plane up for sale. The
aircraft was everthing it was supposed to be but it scared the s__t
out of him and he went back to his Cub. Seemed that what he really
enjoyed flying was low and slow.