Air Force uniform prototype makes debut

[Otis Willie]

Air Force uniform prototype makes debut

(EXCERPT) , By Lisa Burgess, Stars and Stripes European edition,
Saturday, February 14, 2004

ARLINGTON, Va. — The Air Force is rolling out a snazzy prototype of a
new uniform at two stateside bases.

Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio and Langley Air Force Base in
Virginia got the new uniforms this week.

Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper decided last year that
airmen need something “distinctive” to meet the needs of his service.

Testers at the remaining bases — Ramstein in Germany, Hurlburt Field
in Florida, Luke in Arizona, Elemendorf in Alaska, McChord in
Washington, Robbins in Georgia, and Vandenburg in California — will
get their uniforms in the next several weeks, Air Force spokeswo...

U.S. and friendly nation laws prohibit fully reproducing
copyrighted material. In abidance with our laws this report
cannot be provided in its entirety. However, you can read it
in full today, 14 Feb 2004, at the following URL. (COMBINE
the following lines into your web browser.) The
subject/content of this report is not necessarily the
viewpoint of the distributing Library. This report is provided
for your information and discussion.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=20441

---------------------------
Otis Willie
Associate Librarian
The American War Library
http://www.americanwarlibrary.com

[Bill and Susan Maddux]

every time the air force changes its uniforms it costs the poor airman a lot
of cash. but if the airman wants to advance through airman of the month or
below the zone boards he is going to need the newest uniforms. Hell we just
went through a new uniform in the mid 90's, what more can they change.
"Otis Willie" > wrote in message
...
> Air Force uniform prototype makes debut
>
> (EXCERPT) , By Lisa Burgess, Stars and Stripes European edition,
> Saturday, February 14, 2004
>
> ARLINGTON, Va. - The Air Force is rolling out a snazzy prototype of a
> new uniform at two stateside bases.
>
> Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio and Langley Air Force Base in
> Virginia got the new uniforms this week.
>
> Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. John Jumper decided last year that
> airmen need something "distinctive" to meet the needs of his service.
>
> Testers at the remaining bases - Ramstein in Germany, Hurlburt Field
> in Florida, Luke in Arizona, Elemendorf in Alaska, McChord in
> Washington, Robbins in Georgia, and Vandenburg in California - will
> get their uniforms in the next several weeks, Air Force spokeswo...
>
> U.S. and friendly nation laws prohibit fully reproducing
> copyrighted material. In abidance with our laws this report
> cannot be provided in its entirety. However, you can read it
> in full today, 14 Feb 2004, at the following URL. (COMBINE
> the following lines into your web browser.) The
> subject/content of this report is not necessarily the
> viewpoint of the distributing Library. This report is provided
> for your information and discussion.
>
> http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=20441
>
> ---------------------------
> Otis Willie
> Associate Librarian
> The American War Library
> http://www.americanwarlibrary.com

[BUFDRVR]

>every time the air force changes its uniforms it costs the poor airman a lot
>of cash.

Bill, NCO and enlisted get uniform allowances no? Does it not cover all your
uniform needs (pays for 2 BDU when you need 3)?

>but if the airman wants to advance through airman of the month or
>below the zone boards he is going to need the newest uniforms. Hell we just
>went through a new uniform in the
>mid 90's, what more can they change.

Blame it on the Marines. The USMC wanted a unique Marine uniform, within months
so did the USAF. The Army will get their unique uniform cheaply as both the
USAF and USMC pay for new ones and leave the Army as sole wearer of the current
BDUs. I believe the USAF should have a 10 year moratorium on any changes to the
current uniform. I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
combination or another) my fourth service dress!


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Tex Houston]

"Bill and Susan Maddux" > wrote in message
. ..
> every time the air force changes its uniforms it costs the poor airman a
lot
> of cash. but if the airman wants to advance through airman of the month or
> below the zone boards he is going to need the newest uniforms. Hell we
just
> went through a new uniform in the mid 90's, what more can they change.
> "Otis Willie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Air Force uniform prototype makes debut


You're quoting "Otis Willie"? He has little credibility in military
circles. Most of us have his many names blocked. Con city, USA.

Tex Houston

[Marc Reeve]

Tex Houston > wrote:

> "Bill and Susan Maddux" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > every time the air force changes its uniforms it costs the poor airman a
> > lot of cash. but if the airman wants to advance through airman of the
> > month or below the zone boards he is going to need the newest uniforms.
> > Hell we just went through a new uniform in the mid 90's, what more can
> > they change.
>
> > "Otis Willie" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > Air Force uniform prototype makes debut
>
>
> You're quoting "Otis Willie"? He has little credibility in military
> circles. Most of us have his many names blocked. Con city, USA.
>
How about the Dayton Daily News, then?

http://www.daytondailynews.com/localnews/content/localnews/daily/0212uni
forms.html

Then there's straight from the horse's mouth, the Air Force website
(complete with photos):
http://www.af.mil/news/story.asp?storyID=123005370

I think we discussed this to death back in August when it was first
announced, anyway.

-Marc

--
Marc Reeve
actual email address after removal of 4s & spaces is
c4m4r4a4m4a4n a4t c4r4u4z4i4o d4o4t c4o4m

[Bill and Susan Maddux]

are you referring to me, cause I don't know this ottis guy. I have been off
the newsgroup for some time. I spent 12 years in the air force, and during
that Time We had a few uniform changes, and yes enlisted did gets a uniform
allowance, but it does not cover all that is need to pay for the uniforms,
heck when the BDUs came out it wouldn't even cover one full set of BDUs
with stripes and patches, name tags. And when the new Blues hit the market,
the allowance wasn't even a drop in the bucket towards the cost. Maybe that
has changed, but I doubt it.
"Bill Maddog Maddux

[Jack]

On 2/16/04 9:00 AM, in article ,
"BUFDRVR" > wrote:


> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
> combination or another) my fourth service dress!

Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and navigators.



Jack

[[email protected]]

Jack > wrote:

>On 2/16/04 9:00 AM, in article ,
>"BUFDRVR" > wrote:
>
>
>> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
>> combination or another) my fourth service dress!
>
>Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and navigators.
>
>Jack

You were asking for that one Buf!... :)
--

-Gord.

[BUFDRVR]

>>> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
>>> combination or another) my fourth service dress!
>>
>>Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and navigators.
>>
>>Jack
>
>You were asking for that one Buf!... :)


OK, I'm going to admit, I don't get it!! I always appreciate humor, someone
clue me in .......


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Tex Houston]

"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >>> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
> >>> combination or another) my fourth service dress!
> >>
> >>Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and
navigators.
> >>
> >>Jack
> >
> >You were asking for that one Buf!... :)
>
>
> OK, I'm going to admit, I don't get it!! I always appreciate humor,
someone
> clue me in .......
>
>
> BUFDRVR

One word...dress. I was funny but not when it has to be explained.

Tex

[[email protected]]

"Tex Houston" > wrote:

>
>"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
>> >>> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
>> >>> combination or another) my fourth service dress!
>> >>
>> >>Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and
>navigators.
>> >>
>> >>Jack
>> >
>> >You were asking for that one Buf!... :)
>>
>>
>> OK, I'm going to admit, I don't get it!! I always appreciate humor,
>someone
>> clue me in .......
>>
>>
>> BUFDRVR
>
>One word...dress. I was funny but not when it has to be explained.
>
>Tex
>
....and it's a sure sign that you've been 'in too long' when the
phrase 'service dress' doesn't sound a little 'iffy' to you! :)
--

-Gord.

[B2431]

>From: "Gord Beaman" )

>"Tex Houston" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
>>> >>> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
>>> >>> combination or another) my fourth service dress!
>>> >>
>>> >>Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and
>>navigators.
>>> >>
>>> >>Jack
>>> >
>>> >You were asking for that one Buf!... :)
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, I'm going to admit, I don't get it!! I always appreciate humor,
>>someone
>>> clue me in .......
>>>
>>>
>>> BUFDRVR
>>
>>One word...dress. I was funny but not when it has to be explained.
>>
>>Tex
>>
>...and it's a sure sign that you've been 'in too long' when the
>phrase 'service dress' doesn't sound a little 'iffy' to you! :)
>--
>
>-Gord.
>
Don't they call them "class A" anymore?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[WaltBJ]

Change the uniforms again? Jesus X Christ! What's wrong with these
guys' brains? They get up to CoS and all of sudden they think - "Hey,
it's time to change the uniform!" I forget the name of the jerk who
deep-sixed the trench coat - but I still have mine and I wear it when
it gets cold here in CO. Very nifty coat, too. The only decent move
these perfumed princes (thanks, Hack!) ever made in the uni bit was to
go to wash and wears. But then I mostly wore flying suits anyway. The
Nomex bag wasn't so bad after it had been through the washing machine
a dozen or so times. A real sweat hog when brand new, though.
BTW what is the uniform allowance now - still 2 bucks a month?
Walt BJ

[[email protected]]

(B2431) wrote:

>>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>
>>"Tex Houston" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
>>>> >>> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
>>>> >>> combination or another) my fourth service dress!
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and
>>>navigators.
>>>> >>
>>>> >>Jack
>>>> >
>>>> >You were asking for that one Buf!... :)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> OK, I'm going to admit, I don't get it!! I always appreciate humor,
>>>someone
>>>> clue me in .......
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BUFDRVR
>>>
>>>One word...dress. I was funny but not when it has to be explained.
>>>
>>>Tex
>>>
>>...and it's a sure sign that you've been 'in too long' when the
>>phrase 'service dress' doesn't sound a little 'iffy' to you! :)
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>>
>Don't they call them "class A" anymore?
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I suppose...ours were class 5A service dress
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

(WaltBJ) wrote:

>Change the uniforms again? Jesus X Christ! What's wrong with these
>guys' brains? They get up to CoS and all of sudden they think - "Hey,
>it's time to change the uniform!" I forget the name of the jerk who
>deep-sixed the trench coat - but I still have mine and I wear it when
>it gets cold here in CO. Very nifty coat, too. The only decent move
>these perfumed princes (thanks, Hack!) ever made in the uni bit was to
>go to wash and wears. But then I mostly wore flying suits anyway. The
>Nomex bag wasn't so bad after it had been through the washing machine
>a dozen or so times. A real sweat hog when brand new, though.
>BTW what is the uniform allowance now - still 2 bucks a month?
>Walt BJ

Canadian Airforce started using Nomex about the time I retired,
(76) much hotter than the blue/grey cotton flying suits that we
used up to then. they were very comfortable, but we still
stripped to the waist when doing ASW exercises around Bermuda or
Puerto Rico in them. Can't imagine how uncomfortable Nomex must
have been.

My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
--

-Gord.

[BUFDRVR]

>One word...dress. I was funny but not when it has to be explained.

You're right, explaining any joke causes it to lose its punch, but I just
didn't get it. I do now...


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>...and it's a sure sign that you've been 'in too long' when the
>phrase 'service dress' doesn't sound a little 'iffy' to you! :)

13 years and counting....is that too long? Can I least get to retirement
without becoming totaly institutionalized?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[George Shirley]

wrote:

> (WaltBJ) wrote:
>
>
>>Change the uniforms again? Jesus X Christ! What's wrong with these
>>guys' brains? They get up to CoS and all of sudden they think - "Hey,
>>it's time to change the uniform!" I forget the name of the jerk who
>>deep-sixed the trench coat - but I still have mine and I wear it when
>>it gets cold here in CO. Very nifty coat, too. The only decent move
>>these perfumed princes (thanks, Hack!) ever made in the uni bit was to
>>go to wash and wears. But then I mostly wore flying suits anyway. The
>>Nomex bag wasn't so bad after it had been through the washing machine
>>a dozen or so times. A real sweat hog when brand new, though.
>>BTW what is the uniform allowance now - still 2 bucks a month?
>>Walt BJ
>
>
> Canadian Airforce started using Nomex about the time I retired,
> (76) much hotter than the blue/grey cotton flying suits that we
> used up to then. they were very comfortable, but we still
> stripped to the waist when doing ASW exercises around Bermuda or
> Puerto Rico in them. Can't imagine how uncomfortable Nomex must
> have been.
>
> My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
> lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
> hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
> there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
> have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
> --
>
> -Gord.

Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. <VBG>

George, wearing his safety consultant hat again

[[email protected]]

George Shirley > wrote:

--cut--
>> My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
>> lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
>> hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
>> there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
>> have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
>> --
>>
>> -Gord.
>
>Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
>summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
>to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
>bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
>operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
>Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. <VBG>
>
>George, wearing his safety consultant hat again

Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for
years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives
us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire'
maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a
'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some
good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started
thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over
26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one
myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire
guard!!.

Seems a huge waste of manpower to me...yet it was drilled into
us...NEVER START without a fire guard!...and I did once too,
still feel a twinge of guilt... :)
--

-Gord.

[George Shirley]

wrote:

> George Shirley > wrote:
>
> --cut--
>
>>> My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
>>>lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
>>>hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
>>>there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
>>>have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
>>>--
>>>
>>>-Gord.
>>
>>Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
>>summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
>>to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
>>bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
>>operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
>>Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. <VBG>
>>
>>George, wearing his safety consultant hat again
>
>
> Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for
> years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives
> us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire'
> maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a
> 'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some
> good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started
> thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
> start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over
> 26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one
> myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire
> guard!!.
>
> Seems a huge waste of manpower to me...yet it was drilled into
> us...NEVER START without a fire guard!...and I did once too,
> still feel a twinge of guilt... :)
> --
>
> -Gord.

The problem in the American hydrocarbon processing industry is that
Nomex is required in most areas where hydrocarbons are stored,
processed, or handled. If you don't wear the stuff and someone does get
burned, OSHA is really quick on hitting you with wilfull and serious
violations. That means the company can be fined up to $70K per employee
present per violation. It's cheaper to pay the money for the
uncomfortable stuff that everyone hates than to let employees wear 13
ounce cotton.

In over 40 years in the industry I have been involved in more than one
flash fire and, in my first one, I was wearing long sleeve cotton khaki
shirt, cotton khaki trousers, cotton gloves, etc. I got first degree
burns on my face and a second degree on my right ear. The two instrument
hands with me got multiple third degree burns because they were wearing
polyester slacks and shirts. You know how proper Tiffies are.

I didn't fare any better wearing Nomex years later. Same type of burns
in the same places. The next time I went through one it burned my ass
because I was already running when it went. Didn't hurt me though, just
sped me on my way.

I used to wonder about the fire guard on starting the old prop jobs I
crewed on Gord but did it anyway. Orders is orders as they say.

George

[BUFDRVR]

>I've likely started
>thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
>start

I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
opinion, over reacted to.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[John Keeney]

"WaltBJ" > wrote in message
m...
> Change the uniforms again? Jesus X Christ! What's wrong with these
> guys' brains? They get up to CoS and all of sudden they think - "Hey,
> it's time to change the uniform!" I forget the name of the jerk who

"Hire somebody, fire somebody and paint the lobby."
Was the advice I heard for taking an upper management job.
Since the entire Air Force can't see you changed the color
of the lobby they think they need to change the uniform
to prove they're in charge.
<sigh> professional managers <sigh>

> deep-sixed the trench coat - but I still have mine and I wear it when
> it gets cold here in CO. Very nifty coat, too. The only decent move
> these perfumed princes (thanks, Hack!) ever made in the uni bit was to
> go to wash and wears. But then I mostly wore flying suits anyway. The
> Nomex bag wasn't so bad after it had been through the washing machine
> a dozen or so times. A real sweat hog when brand new, though.

I know the word for our Nomex racing suits was to never wash them:
the fire proofing washed out. Was the fire proofing the thing that
accounted for the "sweat hog" effect ya' think?

> BTW what is the uniform allowance now - still 2 bucks a month?
> Walt BJ

[mg]

"George Shirley" > wrote in message
.. .
> wrote:
>
> > George Shirley > wrote:
> >
> > --cut--
> >
> >>> My god, that was hot work, trying to get some rest/sleep while
> >>>lying back in the midrest seats alongside the open overwing
> >>>hatches listening to the hellish pounding of the slipstream
> >>>there. The bunks were unuseable due to the heat. You guys now
> >>>have it easy in airconditioned comfort!...
> >>>--
> >>>
> >>>-Gord.
> >>
> >>Nomex is well known in the oil refining industry as being hot in the
> >>summer and cold in the winter. It only protects against flash fires up
> >>to about 900F AFAIK and you ain't gonna make it if the fire is really
> >>bad. Personally I always preferred cotton clothing when I was a plant
> >>operator and still wear cotton and wool by preference. Hopefully my
> >>Nomex coveralls are hanging in the closet forever. <VBG>
> >>
> >>George, wearing his safety consultant hat again
> >
> >
> > Y'know, this is a favourite subject of mine. We wear Nomex for
> > years and years with all the attendant discomfort that it gives
> > us just to protect 'someone' for a few seconds of 'flash fire'
> > maybe. Seems like a silly thing to do, it's like we provide a
> > 'fireguard' for every a/c engine start when it'll maybe do some
> > good on some start ten years in the future. I've likely started
> > thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
> > start, moreover, I've never even seen one. That spread out over
> > 26 years of service. Never even SEEN one, let alone HAD one
> > myself, let alone had one myself which was put out by the fire
> > guard!!.


I know of a crew who escaped with burns on back of head and ears only when
the aircraft exploded. They made it out and the nomex did save their back
sides. I never had a fire during start in over 4000 individual engine
starts. I don't count a few torches with J57s that were blown out
immediately. I guess the real question would be, could you give a good
answer to your commander if you did lose the jet because of a fire and you
didn't have a fire guard. But usually it is a waste of time.

MG

[[email protected]]

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>I've likely started
>>thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
>>start
>
>I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
>engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
>opinion, over reacted to.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
same...fireguards are a waste of time...
--

-Gord.

[D. Strang]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote
>
> I'd love to have a bean counter to run this by. Just think of all
> the manpower hours wasted by this unproductive occupation!. It's
> like doing a complete teardown and rebuild of your car engine
> every six months at a cost of half of the engine's worth. Nothing
> short of ridiculous overkill.

Talk to any Nascar or Professional drag racer about engine tear-downs.

No matter what the bean-counter says, the winners run fresh engines,
and they don't last 6 months even. You only have to look at the monthly
inflight shutdown rate, and that number of hours is the right edge of the
bell curve.

[D. Strang]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote
>> (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>>
> >>I've likely started
> >>thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
> >>start
> >
> >I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
> >engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
> >opinion, over reacted to.
> >
> >
> >BUFDRVR
> >
> Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
> same...fireguards are a waste of time...

We had a DC-3 burn-up on start in Pleiku once. Course that was
a gasoline fire. It was full of body bags going to Saigon. What a mess.
Digging latrines was good duty that week. That was a month before
the Cathay Pacific airliner blew-up over Pleiku at 29k ft. We had
raining body parts on that deal.

[BUFDRVR]

>Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
>same...fireguards are a waste of time...

I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I
actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for
#4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE
cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and
generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so
basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a
fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and
a fire guard.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Bob McKellar]

BUFDRVR wrote:

> >Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
> >same...fireguards are a waste of time...
>
> I think it depends on the aircraft. Despite the extremely rare occurances, I
> actually believe they serve a purpose during a BUFF engine start, at least for
> #4 (the first engine started). In the BUFF, we have no APU and rely on an AGE
> cart for starting #4 and # 5 engine. The carts are old (imagine that) and
> generally not designed to spin your engines any higher than about 25% RPM, so
> basically, until you have #4 on line, you have limited ability to motor out a
> fire, which obviously increases your probability of needing fire retardant and
> a fire guard.
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

Why do you start #4 & #5 first? Do they have more electrical/hydraulic capacity?

Given the age of those engines, I would want to start #1 & #8 first, in case they
blow up!

( The above includes both an honest question and a non serious smartass comment.)

Bob McKellar, who only had to start #1 on his own airplane long ago

[BUFDRVR]

>Why do you start #4 & #5 first?

The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as
well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard
engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander
(I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?)

You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to
the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot
air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest,
you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for
#1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will
stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the
anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The
bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little
"trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the
light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere
prior to 10,000').



BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[B2431]

>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 2/20/2004 7:35 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
>>>I've likely started
>>>thousands of aircraft engines and NEVER had an engine fire on
>>>start
>>
>>I've started 8 engines at least 300 times (2400 starts) and I've only had 2
>>engine fires on start and one of them was a torch that the crew chief, in my
>>opinion, over reacted to.
>>
>>
>>BUFDRVR
>>
> Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
>same...fireguards are a waste of time...
>--
>
>-Gord.
>
On the other hand when an F-4E burns on engine start having a fire guard comes
in very handy getting the aircrew out safely. In the 2 years I was at Hahn AB
it happened only once as far as I recall. It justified the expense as far as I
am concerned. It was the only case of one of my aircraft in 20 years. It's a
small price to pay.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Bob McKellar]

BUFDRVR wrote:

> >Why do you start #4 & #5 first?
>
> The sequence is; #4 then #5, then the rest. You could use #3 or #6 to start as
> well, I'm guessing they just picked #4 because they needed to pick an inboard
> engine and #4 was the closest to the watchful eyes of the Aircraft Commander
> (I'm not really sure why they picked #4 out of the 4 they could have?)
>
> You want to use inboard engines because the bleed air manifold connecting to
> the outboard engines is only designed to have cooled air blown into it, not hot
> air out of it. Basically, if you start #8, then run up #8 to start the rest,
> you can over temp the "plumbing" leading from the #8 engine. Same is true for
> #1, #2 and #7. On occasions, the manifold for one of the outboard engines will
> stick open after the switch has been placed to CLOSED and either during the
> anti-ice check, or initial takeoff you'll get a manifold overheat light. The
> bad part is, you have no idea which engine and have to go through a little
> "trial and error" to figure out which engine is the criminal. On takeoff the
> light comes on immediately upon turning the air conditioning on (somewhere
> prior to 10,000').
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

So all the engines are all "plumbed" together? As long as one of the 8 is running,
you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you mentioned.)?

Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors?

Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted? It would not seem to add
much to the plumbing. Is this due to the general plan of a large AFB with lots of
handy ground techs and their equipment running around?

Bob McKellar

[BUFDRVR]

>So all the engines are all "plumbed" together?

Yes.

>As long as one of the 8 is running,
>you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you mentioned.)?

Yes.

>Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors?

The starters ("spark") are DC, but initial engine rotation is provided by bleed
air.

>Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted?

Are there any jets built before 1962 that have APUs? Did the Comet have an APU?
If the answer is yes to either of those, my only guess would be, to save
weight, they did without the APU. Hell, they took the G model's and H model's
ailerons off to save weight.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Smartace11]

> Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
>same...fireguards are a waste of time...

Well, I for one was always glad to have one when we were starting an bombed up,
fueled up F-4 using the cartridge start system. It was always a relief to see
that the world was still there after the black/red smoke cloud cleared. A few
got burned up to the wheels on that little operation. Ditto with hot pit
refueling. There is/was a gate guard as Davis-Monthan AFB that caught fire
with a loss of life when the refueling nozzle slipped off and raw JP4 got
sucked into the inlet on #1, belched flame and caught the pool of fuel under
the jet on fire. Backseater jumped out the left side of the plane as was the
usual route, right into the flame. If he had gone the right side or over the
nose as the fronst seater did he wold have survived.

[Bill and Susan Maddux]

there is another way to start the engines as well. the Starter cartridges
placed in the engine starter fires from battery power and propels the
engines to motor up. it was use on alerts. and a bitch to clean up after an
exercise. we would put two on # 4 & #5 engines for a normal alert status,
and a cart in all eight engines for a quick start alert.
"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
...
> >So all the engines are all "plumbed" together?
>
> Yes.
>
> >As long as one of the 8 is running,
> >you can send "starting air" to the others (within the limits you
mentioned.)?
>
> Yes.
>
> >Starting is all with bleed air, no electric motors?
>
> The starters ("spark") are DC, but initial engine rotation is provided by
bleed
> air.
>
> >Given all this complexity, why was an APU not fitted?
>
> Are there any jets built before 1962 that have APUs? Did the Comet have an
APU?
> If the answer is yes to either of those, my only guess would be, to save
> weight, they did without the APU. Hell, they took the G model's and H
model's
> ailerons off to save weight.
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
> "Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
harelips
> everyone on Bear Creek"

[Bill and Susan Maddux]

During the First Gulf War, the 4300 PBW at Diego Garcia was using G model
BUFFs, and Navy JP5 fuel. it was easier to tell the crew to expect a hot
start on all eight engines, and then tell them when one does not hot start.
Also on the first night of air operations we had a bomber with an outboard
hydro leak behind the jet blast of #1and 2 engines. the Hydro fluid caught
fire as it was dripping down and the ground around the wing started to burn.
I was on the plane next door and saw this rushed over with the fire bottle.
the fire guard or the ground man did not see it.

also while on alert I had a bad Cartridge start, flames shot out of the
starter exhaust duct then caught some fuel in the cowling on fire. My crew
was very happy the I was alert that day. with all those warheads onboard, it
could have been a mess. fire guards had a job, but prey that they never have
to use it. Plus you want one that can keep his mind on what he is doing.
"Smartace11" > wrote in message
...
> > Sure...and just about anyone who starts a/c engines can say the
> >same...fireguards are a waste of time...
>
> Well, I for one was always glad to have one when we were starting an
bombed up,
> fueled up F-4 using the cartridge start system. It was always a relief to
see
> that the world was still there after the black/red smoke cloud cleared. A
few
> got burned up to the wheels on that little operation. Ditto with hot pit
> refueling. There is/was a gate guard as Davis-Monthan AFB that caught
fire
> with a loss of life when the refueling nozzle slipped off and raw JP4 got
> sucked into the inlet on #1, belched flame and caught the pool of fuel
under
> the jet on fire. Backseater jumped out the left side of the plane as was
the
> usual route, right into the flame. If he had gone the right side or over
the
> nose as the fronst seater did he wold have survived.

[BUFDRVR]

>and a cart in all eight engines for a quick start alert.

I was actually lucky enough to get to do an 8 engine cart start one afternoon.
ACC was testing new respirators for the crew chiefs, so they picked my jet to
load 8 carts on. It was very cool and I was very surprised at the amount of
smoke, it seemed much more than four times what I was used to.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Puppinator]

nope, Sevice Dress (haven't heard the term Class A's since the 80's and even
then it was outdated)
:)
Sorry for the top post...bad habit:)

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Gord Beaman" )
>
> >"Tex Houston" > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>"BUFDRVR" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>> >>> I've been on active duty for 12 years and I'm wearing (in one
> >>> >>> combination or another) my fourth service dress!
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Yeah, that's what we always heard too, about bomber pilots, and
> >>navigators.
> >>> >>
> >>> >>Jack
> >>> >
> >>> >You were asking for that one Buf!... :)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> OK, I'm going to admit, I don't get it!! I always appreciate humor,
> >>someone
> >>> clue me in .......
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> BUFDRVR
> >>
> >>One word...dress. I was funny but not when it has to be explained.
> >>
> >>Tex
> >>
> >...and it's a sure sign that you've been 'in too long' when the
> >phrase 'service dress' doesn't sound a little 'iffy' to you! :)
> >--
> >
> >-Gord.
> >
> Don't they call them "class A" anymore?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Puppinator]

"John Keeney" > wrote in message
...
>
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message

>
> > BTW what is the uniform allowance now - still 2 bucks a month?
> > Walt BJ
>
>
Heck no, over $200 a year....but when you look at the costs of the uniforms
(Battle Dress and Service Dress)....astronomical.

--
Pup
USAF, Retired
Go #88 UPS Racing, Detroit Red Wings,
Ohio State Buckeyes
__________________

[George]

"John Keeney" > wrote in message >...
> "WaltBJ" > wrote in message
> m...
> > Change the uniforms again? Jesus X Christ! What's wrong with these
> > guys' brains? They get up to CoS and all of sudden they think - "Hey,
> > it's time to change the uniform!" I forget the name of the jerk who
>
> "Hire somebody, fire somebody and paint the lobby."
> Was the advice I heard for taking an upper management job.
> Since the entire Air Force can't see you changed the color
> of the lobby they think they need to change the uniform
> to prove they're in charge.
> <sigh> professional managers <sigh>
>

Gen. Jumper already did that. He's done a lot of shaking up in last
couple years. The AEF concept, Fit to Fight, and some other programs
are big in that they affect everyone in the AF. He's pretty much done
the "prove they're in charge"