About German Mystery Objects

[Erich Adler]

I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend the
developments brought on by the Allied bombing campaign against Germany
during the Second World War.

But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.

It is very well known that despite huge efforts in the German defense
industry during the war the bombing campaign was wreaking havoc on our
hydronation plants, airfields, aircraft production facilities, and
transport network. Even when new amazing jets arrived they were scarce
on fuel and remained stationary on the ground. Up to 300 Messerschmitt
262's were grounded for that reason alone.

Secondly, Germany lacked pilots to fly the jets. Even the aces from
the prop fighters had a rough time transitioning to jet aircraft and
simultaneously trying to develope new tactics to attack the bombers
with an overtaking speed of close to 300 mph. Do youn realize how
difficult it must have been to dive into the bomber groups at over 550
mph and quickly fire a burst of 30mm cannon ammo? It was very
difficult and then the jet usually was attacked upon landing at its
base, ending up as a fireball on the ground.

Germany needed answers and they tried to think up every concievable
aircraft configuration and powerplant to tackle the bombers.

The SS, however, had been involved in the black arts since the Nazis
took power and had both Hitler's and Himmler's backing to develope
occult craft from the Thule and Vril Gesellschafts. These black
societies centering around occult teachings and two psychic mediums
sometime in the 1930's built a flying disc that utilized technology
derived from occult science. It flew badly and crashed but worked
continued with the help of a Dr. Schumann who invented levitators
centered around a liquid mercury sphere and various spinning internal
disc plates that somehow caused a rotating magnetic field effect.

Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.

U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
maintained the base.

The question is: why not use the discs in battle then? The answer was
that they could fly at only certain angles eliminating them as
fighters. Their engines operation killed any normal magnetic compass.
They had no armament fitted except a few experimentals with 2 MGs, a
30mm MK 108, and a Haunebu with some form of turret gun. This has
mistakenly been called a hoax with a panzer 38t turret and gun. If you
examine highly cleaned-up versions of the photos and note the scale
the turret is rounded and not exactly metal. The gun defies comparison
to conventional weapons of the time.

The Germans were trying to develope a wide range of these disc
machines but time ran out. Vril and Thule evacuated to Base 211 and
South America. The other SS projects like the BMW Flugelrad jet-gyros
were destroyed. Schauberger's Repulsine motors were captured as were
Coanda's models of huis Lenticular Disc and Andreas Epps Omega Diskus.
Patents found at the end of the war revealed Focke-Wulf had circular
disc conventional aircraft plans as did Heinkel's engineer Rudolf
Schriever, who swears his Flugkreisel designs were stolen by the SS in
1941.

There seems to be an awful lot of confusion on the part of
investigators and reporters on these machines. Schriever's discs are
always confused with the BMW Flugelrads. They are not the same at all.
The BMWs were built in Prague and utilized BMW 003 jet engines to
power moving rotor blades. Schriever's disc had Jumo 004 jet engines
on the rotor discs and on the lower body. They cannot therfore be the
same. Schriever claimed the SS stole his idea and gave it to a group
of scientists: Habermohl, Miethe, and an Italian Belluzzo. None but
Miethe's design are plausible. Miethe furnished photos of his design
to an Italian magazine after the war. It looks like an enlarged
Repulsine with a cockpit. This makes sense since Schauberger's motor
was perfected by 1944 and a larger version was said to be incorporated
into the SS disc in that same year. Schauberger was a prisoner of the
SS so whatever he developed was passed along to others.

Other than these was a lone private venture by one Arthur Sack who was
a flying model enthusiast with a disc plane on show in a 1939
competition. He impressed Udet who gave hime some scrap to work with.
Amazingly, he had built in a simple workshop a wooden circular wing
aircraft that utilized parts from a Messerschmitt 108 Taifun and an
Argus engine. The machine was very simple and could have flown well
had it not been for the misplacement of the landing gear, an
underpowered engine, and poor tail surfaces. It made a few hops in
1944 and was cut up for firewood.

So when the Allies arrived in Germany they were desperate to find the
mystery disc objects at any cost. Since the SS controlled these
machines they did not want to surrender to either the Red Army or US
Army for fear of reprisal killings. Instead, they moved north and
surrendered to the British Army which hadn't any idea what all this
material and documentation was. They did crate everything and boxcar
it on a train stretching for miles. They then shipped it from a French
port to Britain where they astoundingly couldn't make the machines
work properly. Both the US and USSR had been hunting for the discs so
Britain moved them to Canada for testing and the rest is history X.

However, what they got must have been a jet design due to AVRO
proceeding in that direction. No Vril or Haunebu fell into Allied
hands. Admiral Byrd set out in 1947 with a military task force to
recon New Schwabenland, find Base 211, and destroy it. He was
repulsed. Sightings of Vril and Haunebu type UFOs surfaced all over
South America and South Atlantic. U-boats came back montha after V-E
day with their cargos missing. Another U-boat was intercepted carrying
tons of nothing but liquid mercury. Germany must have secured the ice
fortress because no one goes there today.

In the '50s South Americans reported U-boats still operating in their
waters and in the '90s a strange photo showed up in Germany's news- a
gun supposedly captured during Byrd's expedition. It was a German
assault rifle unlike any other that fired a squeeze-round. It
supposedly was taken from the dead body of an SS Antartic trooper. The
name Schwinder was on it. No one has ever explained that.

People in South America believe the Nazis still have bases there and
in Antartica. Some people in Germany believe that too. It sounds wild
yet there is so much information circulating.

Anyone care to add to this conversation?

Erich Adler

[Cub Driver]

>Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
>Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,

Yes, that would explain it, all right.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email:

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Vaughn]

"Erich Adler" > wrote in message
om...
> I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend

Yes, you got to the root of the problem in your first sentence, us
people here in the United States just can't comprehend, there was no need to
read the rest of your post.

Good day;
Vaughn

[Keith Willshaw]

"Erich Adler" > wrote in message
om...

>
> U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> maintained the base.
>

So what was the labour force used to construct this base in the Antarctic ?

Nordhausen required the efforts of 10's of thousands of slave laborers.
Who did they refind to recruit in the Antarctic , trained penguins perhaps ?


> The question is: why not use the discs in battle then? The answer was
> that they could fly at only certain angles eliminating them as
> fighters. Their engines operation killed any normal magnetic compass.
> They had no armament fitted except a few experimentals with 2 MGs, a
> 30mm MK 108, and a Haunebu with some form of turret gun. This has
> mistakenly been called a hoax with a panzer 38t turret and gun. If you
> examine highly cleaned-up versions of the photos and note the scale
> the turret is rounded and not exactly metal. The gun defies comparison
> to conventional weapons of the time.
>

As it didnt exist except in the fevered imaginations of a number
of deranged individuals comparing to anything real would be
a trfile difficult

<deranged ramblings snipped>

> People in South America believe the Nazis still have bases there and
> in Antartica. Some people in Germany believe that too. It sounds wild
> yet there is so much information circulating.
>
> Anyone care to add to this conversation?

Yep , you are a grade A loon



Keith

[Ole]

> > I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend
>
> Yes, you got to the root of the problem in your first sentence, us
> people here in the United States just can't comprehend, there was no need
to
> read the rest of your post.

I just heard that 61% of all US citizens actually belive that the world was
created in 6 days.

So why not belive in flying saucers ? It's after all no different

hehe !

[walt moffett]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:34:14 -0000,
Keith Willshaw > wrote:
>
> "Erich Adler" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>
>> U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
>> 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
>> was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
>> complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
>> components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
>> maintained the base.
>>
>
> So what was the labour force used to construct this base in the Antarctic ?
>

Shoggoths

[Andreas Parsch]

Erich Adler wrote:

> But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
> find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.


As a German, I feel offended by the implications of the above sentence.

There may be some German books about this topic, but they are _not_
sold in any self-respecting aviation, military or history book shops.
It's stuff for conspiracy whackos and/or neo-nazis. In fact, at least
one of these books (or was it a video tape about the same cr*p? -
don't care) was actually out-lawed in Germany because of its nazi content.

Andreas

[Bill and Susan Maddux]

Germany lost that is the point here. IT would not have mattered if they had
had mach 2 aircraft, they still would have lost. The Nazi Panzer units had
better tougher tanks, but they could not defeat the out numbering allied
tank force. Sure the Sherman tanks were weaker in armor and armament, but
they out numbered the panzers. Same thing in the air, and after the
successes of the air campaign, Germany had no combat trained pilots any
more. the last days of the third Reich was filled with doubt and indecisions
by a madman who couldn't trust his own generals to get the job done. like
the roman empire and napoleon, they simply outreached their empire. and
could not defend it anymore.

Of course this is my view, and you can disagree with it anyway you choose.

Bill Maddog Maddux

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
walt moffett > writes:
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:34:14 -0000,
> Keith Willshaw > wrote:
>>
>> "Erich Adler" > wrote in message
>> om...
>>
>>>
>>> U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
>>> 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
>>> was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
>>> complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
>>> components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
>>> maintained the base.
>>>
>>
>> So what was the labour force used to construct this base in the Antarctic ?
>>
>
> Shoggoths

Using a map of the Boston Subway System.

--
Pete Stickney
Teki-Li-Li!

[Bernardz]

In article >,
says...
> Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
> of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
> of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
> mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the

The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war.


> Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
> advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
> deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
> engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
> and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
> bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.
>
> U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> maintained the base.
>
>

Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.





--
To make the economy go, some one has to work.

Observations of Bernard - No 45

[t_mark]

> I just heard that 61% of all US citizens actually belive that the world
was
> created in 6 days.

I've rarely met anyone who fills the qualifications of that poll, much less
a majority of people I've ever discussed the issue with. I grew up in a
state where many people are religious, and attended many churches growing up
despite not having a strong faith myself, and in discussion after discussion
few people believed the "literal Bible" claim. Many religions as a whole
see the stories as anecdotes. Many other people believe the stories are
roughly true in that the main actors existed, but that things did not come
to pass exactly as written. The "made in six days" discussion is a
particularly common one, with debate over what a 'day' truly may have been
or represented.

Point being, as a person of no particular faith living in the U.S. I see the
'religion' here for what it is, and it's a far, far sight from the beliefs
of many foreigners who hear that most Americans believe in some sort of god
and summarily decide there's some sort of theocracy over here. A 'random
sampling' of 1000 people on the phone doesn't change that experience.

[t_mark]

> I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend the
> developments brought on by the Allied bombing campaign against Germany
> during the Second World War.
>
> But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
> find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.

Over in Germany many books exist on many subjects that are completely stupid
and highly xenophobic, especially when America is involved in the subject
matter. (Whether it's about the US attacking itself on 9/11, or Emmanuel
Todd's utterly ridiculous mercantilist rant about US decline.)

[Tex Houston]

"Bernardz" > wrote in message
news:MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news...
> In article >,
> says...
> > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > maintained the base.
> >
> >
>
> Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.


I read a novel with this very plot. I no longer remember the name of that
novel as I read two or three a week. I do recognize the difference between
novels and non-fiction.

Tex

[Tarver Engineering]

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> >Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
>
> Yes, that would explain it, all right.

That would explain a lot.

[Tarver Engineering]

"t_mark" > wrote in message
news:gM5Yb.48266$L_4.2999@okepread01...
> > I just heard that 61% of all US citizens actually belive that the world
> was
> > created in 6 days.
>
> I've rarely met anyone who fills the qualifications of that poll, much
less
> a majority of people I've ever discussed the issue with. I grew up in a
> state where many people are religious, and attended many churches growing
up
> despite not having a strong faith myself, and in discussion after
discussion
> few people believed the "literal Bible" claim.

Try a degree in physics with a some quantum physics and you will see that
six days is quite reasonable. You will of course need to look at both the
single universe theory as well as the contrivance of an infinite number of
parallel universes to get it.

Catholics make up the other 30% of the US population that believe in
creation, but through evolution.

[robert arndt]

(Erich Adler) wrote in message >...
> I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend the
> developments brought on by the Allied bombing campaign against Germany
> during the Second World War.
>
> But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
> find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.

Really? I find that hard to believe since no one has produced one so
far that records all the German disc projects AND eliminate gross
mistakes like the designs by Scriever, the speculation on the
Feuerball, and all the V-7 crap. Please list German source books
besides German versions of Renato Vesco's and statements by George
Klein.
>
> It is very well known that despite huge efforts in the German defense
> industry during the war the bombing campaign was wreaking havoc on our
> hydronation plants, airfields, aircraft production facilities, and
> transport network. Even when new amazing jets arrived they were scarce
> on fuel and remained stationary on the ground. Up to 300 Messerschmitt
> 262's were grounded for that reason alone.

More than that if you include the Me-163, Ar-234, and He-162. The
figure is more like 800.
>
> Secondly, Germany lacked pilots to fly the jets. Even the aces from
> the prop fighters had a rough time transitioning to jet aircraft and
> simultaneously trying to develope new tactics to attack the bombers
> with an overtaking speed of close to 300 mph. Do youn realize how
> difficult it must have been to dive into the bomber groups at over 550
> mph and quickly fire a burst of 30mm cannon ammo? It was very
> difficult and then the jet usually was attacked upon landing at its
> base, ending up as a fireball on the ground.

Uh, no actually the pilots of JV 44 did well and others did too- take
a look at the gun camera footage from various Me-262s and Me-163s. It
was the escorts plus the wall of fire coming from the bomber stream
box formations that killed them... plus the nice gallant P-51 Mustang
"pounces" upon t/o or landing :)
>
> Germany needed answers and they tried to think up every concievable
> aircraft configuration and powerplant to tackle the bombers.

Yes, but the disc programs don't belong to any of those.
Messerschmitt, Heinkel, Focke-Wulf, etc... were never ordered to
develop disc aircraft. Those craft were in the SS realm, under SS
control the entire time.
>
> The SS, however, had been involved in the black arts since the Nazis
> took power and had both Hitler's and Himmler's backing to develope
> occult craft from the Thule and Vril Gesellschafts. These black
> societies centering around occult teachings and two psychic mediums
> sometime in the 1930's built a flying disc that utilized technology
> derived from occult science. It flew badly and crashed but worked
> continued with the help of a Dr. Schumann who invented levitators
> centered around a liquid mercury sphere and various spinning internal
> disc plates that somehow caused a rotating magnetic field effect.

Hitler and Himmler were members of Thule, which is where the NSDAP
originates from. True. The disc you speak of, according to the record,
is the RFZ-1 which flew in 1934 the same year Hitler met Viktor
Schauberger over his agricultural ideas and exotic liquid vortex
technology. Schauberger refused to work with the Nazis and was
arrested by them later on to work on his design. But your timeline is
wrong. Thule actually built the German first disc Jenseitsflugmaschine
(JFM) in 1922 before the Nazis came to power. It was tested from
1922-24 and then hurriedly dismantled and stored at Messerschmitt's
Augsburg facility later, only to disappear. The JFM was the result of
the Thule medium Maria Orsic who supposedly channeled the design of
the JFM from Aryan aliens from Aldebaran, in the Taurus constellation.
I do not advocate their beliefs but that is where THEY claimed to have
recieved the information. Anyway, the disc was built and photos of it
exist.
>
> Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
> of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
> of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
> mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
> Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
> advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
> deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
> engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
> and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
> bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.

The "Schwarzwald" UFO crash was never proven and that does NOT explain
how Thule already had the RFZ series flying in 1934 forward WITHOUT
the crashed alien machine. As for New Schwabenland, the area was
claimed in 1938. The Dornier Wal boats reconned 230,000 sq miles of
Antartic territory to find a suitable base for (speculation) occult
science- one that proved the Thule and Vril belief in the "hollow
earth" theories as well. Supposedly they found a spot free of ice that
could grow limited vegetation and held large caves with an internal
hot spring. Supposedly during 1942-43 the cave complex was constructed
using forced labor brought in from submarines. BTW, no Haunebus were
sighted there. The RFZ-2 supposedly hooked up with the raider Atlantis
near there in South ATlantic waters.
>
> U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> maintained the base.

Again, not proven. The Germans DID send subs throughout the war to the
region and South America with small meteorological stations inserted
here and there as well as placing meterological bouys in the waters...
but Base 211 is mentioned nowhere. As for the Type XXVI, four were
under construction at wars end- in Germany. There is specualtion that
an entire series of U-boat numbers is missing from that Type, but
again NOT proven.
>
> The question is: why not use the discs in battle then? The answer was
> that they could fly at only certain angles eliminating them as
> fighters. Their engines operation killed any normal magnetic compass.
> They had no armament fitted except a few experimentals with 2 MGs, a
> 30mm MK 108, and a Haunebu with some form of turret gun. This has
> mistakenly been called a hoax with a panzer 38t turret and gun. If you
> examine highly cleaned-up versions of the photos and note the scale
> the turret is rounded and not exactly metal. The gun defies comparison
> to conventional weapons of the time.

All true except that the Allies knew of the machines and wanted one
captured intact. They didn't need armament of any kind since they were
used only for transport and occasional recon flights. Their incredible
speed of 1,200 mph+ eliminated any chance of any Allied fighter
shooting one down.
>
> The Germans were trying to develope a wide range of these disc
> machines but time ran out. Vril and Thule evacuated to Base 211 and
> South America. The other SS projects like the BMW Flugelrad jet-gyros
> were destroyed. Schauberger's Repulsine motors were captured as were
> Coanda's models of huis Lenticular Disc and Andreas Epps Omega Diskus.
> Patents found at the end of the war revealed Focke-Wulf had circular
> disc conventional aircraft plans as did Heinkel's engineer Rudolf
> Schriever, who swears his Flugkreisel designs were stolen by the SS in
> 1941.

All agreed, at least you got that part correct. I've always wondered
why there is no explanation given for the missing Vril and Thule
Societies plus Gen. Kammler. Add to this the other missing 42,000
slave laborers, 60,000 technicians and scientists, and 142,000 missing
German citizens plus 50-60 missing U-boats.
>
> There seems to be an awful lot of confusion on the part of
> investigators and reporters on these machines. Schriever's discs are
> always confused with the BMW Flugelrads. They are not the same at all.
> The BMWs were built in Prague and utilized BMW 003 jet engines to
> power moving rotor blades. Schriever's disc had Jumo 004 jet engines
> on the rotor discs and on the lower body. They cannot therfore be the
> same. Schriever claimed the SS stole his idea and gave it to a group
> of scientists: Habermohl, Miethe, and an Italian Belluzzo. None but
> Miethe's design are plausible. Miethe furnished photos of his design
> to an Italian magazine after the war. It looks like an enlarged
> Repulsine with a cockpit. This makes sense since Schauberger's motor
> was perfected by 1944 and a larger version was said to be incorporated
> into the SS disc in that same year. Schauberger was a prisoner of the
> SS so whatever he developed was passed along to others.

Blame David Masters for his 1982 book "German Jet Genesis" and the
others that actually linked false drawings to the Schriever disc. None
of those bear any resemblence to either the Flugelrads or Schriever's
disc. When Schriever died papers found at his home revealed his design
for the Flugkreisel. Those depicted in Masters book don't match at all
except he mistakenly labeled Coanda's Lenticular machine as a
Flugelrad.
>
> Other than these was a lone private venture by one Arthur Sack who was
> a flying model enthusiast with a disc plane on show in a 1939
> competition. He impressed Udet who gave hime some scrap to work with.
> Amazingly, he had built in a simple workshop a wooden circular wing
> aircraft that utilized parts from a Messerschmitt 108 Taifun and an
> Argus engine. The machine was very simple and could have flown well
> had it not been for the misplacement of the landing gear, an
> underpowered engine, and poor tail surfaces. It made a few hops in
> 1944 and was cut up for firewood.

Yeah, even the Me-163 pilots at Brandis couldn't fly it!
>
> So when the Allies arrived in Germany they were desperate to find the
> mystery disc objects at any cost. Since the SS controlled these
> machines they did not want to surrender to either the Red Army or US
> Army for fear of reprisal killings. Instead, they moved north and
> surrendered to the British Army which hadn't any idea what all this
> material and documentation was. They did crate everything and boxcar
> it on a train stretching for miles. They then shipped it from a French
> port to Britain where they astoundingly couldn't make the machines
> work properly. Both the US and USSR had been hunting for the discs so
> Britain moved them to Canada for testing and the rest is history X.

No, actually it isn't. The Reds supposedly got Habermohl and some of
the documents. AVRO Canada got Miethe. The US got the Hortens,
Schauberger, and Lippisch input on flying wings, discs, and aerodynes.
Canada pulled into the lead so the US sent forth a party to finance
those designs in joint projects. In reality they came for threat
analysis and to steal as much of the tech as posssible for hand-over
to Lockheed. The plan work as none of AVROs great disc designs came to
nothing while the AVROCAR was a dismal public failure. It should be
since it is not based on any German disc design, not even Epps similar
looking Omega Diskus.
>
> However, what they got must have been a jet design due to AVRO
> proceeding in that direction. No Vril or Haunebu fell into Allied
> hands. Admiral Byrd set out in 1947 with a military task force to
> recon New Schwabenland, find Base 211, and destroy it. He was
> repulsed. Sightings of Vril and Haunebu type UFOs surfaced all over
> South America and South Atlantic. U-boats came back montha after V-E
> day with their cargos missing. Another U-boat was intercepted carrying
> tons of nothing but liquid mercury. Germany must have secured the ice
> fortress because no one goes there today.

Actually there are two stations on the coast run by Germany and
Russia. I think what you're trying to say is that no one has attempted
to locate Base 211 or send troops there again. You're right, no one
can since Antarctica has a treaty that specifies no weapons nor weapon
testing, no armed troops. If the Germans still reside there
underground they are safe.
>
> In the '50s South Americans reported U-boats still operating in their
> waters and in the '90s a strange photo showed up in Germany's news- a
> gun supposedly captured during Byrd's expedition. It was a German
> assault rifle unlike any other that fired a squeeze-round. It
> supposedly was taken from the dead body of an SS Antartic trooper. The
> name Schwinder was on it. No one has ever explained that.
>
That was a subject of a conversation found online. I have never seen
the alleged photo but have seen a depiction of it. Based on the design
it looks like a cannabalized weapon using parts from the FG-42, MP-40,
STG-44, and MG-42 with no furniture at all. It is either a made-up
design or the Germans had to make the equivalent of the Volksgewehr at
Base 211. You got the squeeze round part wrong too. Schwinder
translates as "shrinker". The drawing I saw had both an MP-40 mag up
front and a STG-44 mag to the rear in bullpup fashion. The charging
handle was unique with lock points up front and to the rear. A roller
device was behind the rear mag. What that means is that the gun
probably could go from firing rifle rounds to SMG rounds- shrinking
ammo?

> People in South America believe the Nazis still have bases there and
> in Antartica. Some people in Germany believe that too. It sounds wild
> yet there is so much information circulating.

Yes, because the Nazis did visit South America during the war,
especially the U-boats. The subs that surrendered in Argentina
thaought they would get a warm reception and haven but the US was
indeed waiting for them- not for missing Nazis but to search the holds
for disc technology. If you discount the Ghost Rockets (as German V-4
missile), Kenneth Arnold's sighting (of Horten flying wings), and
Roswell (a crashed Horten X delta) then look where the sightings
STARTED from. You'll find them concentrated in South America and
moving NORTHWARD.
>
> Anyone care to add to this conversation?

I only wish the DoD and USAF would, along with declassifying the rest
of the story. the longer they wait the more alien UFO conspiracy
people pollute what would otherwise be an amazing chronology of human
disc development spanning almost 90 years.
Again, please provide German references. In the US two books have come
out recently that share some of what you are saying: Nick Cook's "Hunt
for Zero Point" and "Hitler's Flying Saucers".
>
> Erich Adler

Rob

[Keith Willshaw]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...

> >
> > However, what they got must have been a jet design due to AVRO
> > proceeding in that direction. No Vril or Haunebu fell into Allied
> > hands. Admiral Byrd set out in 1947 with a military task force to
> > recon New Schwabenland, find Base 211, and destroy it. He was
> > repulsed. Sightings of Vril and Haunebu type UFOs surfaced all over
> > South America and South Atlantic. U-boats came back montha after V-E
> > day with their cargos missing. Another U-boat was intercepted carrying
> > tons of nothing but liquid mercury. Germany must have secured the ice
> > fortress because no one goes there today.
>
> Actually there are two stations on the coast run by Germany and
> Russia. I think what you're trying to say is that no one has attempted
> to locate Base 211 or send troops there again.

No what he said was the US sent a task force in 1947 which was repulsed.
This seems quite clear, lunatic but clear.

> You're right, no one
> can since Antarctica has a treaty that specifies no weapons nor weapon
> testing, no armed troops. If the Germans still reside there
> underground they are safe.

Apart from having died from cold and starvation in mid 1945 I presume.

I dont believe Pizza Hut deliver down there.

Sheesh

Keith

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
walt moffett > wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 13:34:14 -0000,
> Keith Willshaw > wrote:
> >
> > "Erich Adler" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >>
> >> U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> >> 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> >> was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> >> complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> >> components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> >> maintained the base.
> >
> > So what was the labour force used to construct this base in the Antarctic ?
>
> Shoggoths

Ick. That means you have to deal with their union, too.

[steve gallacci]

Tex Houston wrote:
>
> "Bernardz" > wrote in message
> news:MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > > maintained the base.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> > built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> > suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> > complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.
>
> I read a novel with this very plot. I no longer remember the name of that
> novel as I read two or three a week. I do recognize the difference between
> novels and non-fiction.
>
Actually, the Nazi Antarctic base "history" popped up about the same
time as several SF stories were published. One was a direct parallel to
the history, others going further afield in the telling, but still based
on the central premise, and more have come up later. And to satisfy the
conspiracy types, the US Coast Guard did battle with them too, so there
is a US cover-up as well.

The breadth and depth of the illogic of this stuff would make a great
book in itself.

[Dav1936531]

>From: (Erich Adler)
>
>
>Anyone care to add to this conversation?
>Erich Adler

Yeah, here in America we have a bunch of guys down south whose motto is: "The
South's going to do it again." I guess, in a way, they sort of parallel those
who still believe in the hopes and aspirations of the "master race".

Criminal conspiracies (like the Nazis) rot in the astral light. They rise and
then fall as a matter of due course. Yet the retrogrades, those who cannot
comprehend that the built up cult has seen its day, made it contribution to
illuminating history about its wrongness, and has ended, persist.

Nazi submarine bases in Antartica? Channeling flying disk designs from Aryan
aliens in the Aldebaran star system? Really? Wow. All very
believable....<cough>.

At a tactical level, they should have gotten the design for those bright white
light cow lifting tractor beam thingies. Then the Nazis could have starved the
US into submission by stealing all our beef.
Dave

[tim gueguen]

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Bernardz" > wrote in message
> news:MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > > maintained the base.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> > built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> > suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> > complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.
>
>
> I read a novel with this very plot.

Mick Farren's recent Underworld involves the "Nazi saucermen at the South
Pole" schtick. The US government recruits Farren's vampire character Victor
Renquist to deal with the saucermen.

tim gueguen 101867

[tim gueguen]

"Erich Adler" > wrote in message
om...
> I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend the
> developments brought on by the Allied bombing campaign against Germany
> during the Second World War.
>
I see that many people, like you, are kooks who will believe anything that's
put to them if it sounds "kewl."

> But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
> find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.
>
Discussion of supposed Germany flying saucers has turned up in a number of
North American released books over the years, ranging from a '70s release
written by Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel under a penname to Nick Cook's The
Hunt For Zero Point.


> The SS, however, had been involved in the black arts since the Nazis
> took power and had both Hitler's and Himmler's backing to develope
> occult craft from the Thule and Vril Gesellschafts.

If only the Nazis had wasted more effort on such nonsense, assuming of
course they actually

>These black
> societies centering around occult teachings and two psychic mediums
> sometime in the 1930's built a flying disc that utilized technology
> derived from occult science. It flew badly and crashed but worked
> continued with the help of a Dr. Schumann who invented levitators
> centered around a liquid mercury sphere and various spinning internal
> disc plates that somehow caused a rotating magnetic field effect.
>
And your proof that any of the crap you're spewing is true is?

tim gueguen 101867

[phil hunt]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:55:58 -0600, t_mark > wrote:
>
>Point being, as a person of no particular faith living in the U.S. I see the
>'religion' here for what it is, and it's a far, far sight from the beliefs
>of many foreigners who hear that most Americans believe in some sort of god
>and summarily decide there's some sort of theocracy over here.

While the USA clearly isn't a theocracy, religion is clearly
influential enough that states from time to time take evolution off
their school curricula.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

[Eunometic]

Bernardz > wrote in message news:<MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news>...
> In article >,
> says...
> > Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> > Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> > reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
> > of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
> > of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
> > mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
>
> The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war.

The designation V was for "Versuchs" the German word for experimental.
Most german protduction aircraft had up to 30-100 V series aircraft
V1, V2..V7 and that was a trend that seems to have been in place
before the war etc on which various engine, weapons, modifications
were carried out. Occaisionaly some enteres sevice eg when the Arado
234 V5 and V7 were hurridly taken out of testing to photo recon the
D-day landings.

The use of the term V1 and V2 for the Fi 103 cruise missile and A4
Ballistic missile had the advantage of throing of allied intelligence.
The first the allies know about the Fi 103 was photo recon of the ski
ramps lauch sites german security was soi succesfull. Part of the
reaon for the botched first days of lauch was that all launches
involved a very complicated sequence that had to be done completely by
memory. No notes were allowed!


>
>
> > Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
> > advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
> > deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
> > engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
> > and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
> > bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.
> >
> > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > maintained the base.

It was probably a designation that did exist as an intended
experimental type. apart from the electo u-boats type XXI and XXIII
there was the hydrogen peroxide walter boats and others using
compressed oxygen and diesel based on a Dai


> >
> >
>
> Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.


I like this story. It was better than the crap they taught me in
Sunday School. Give it 1000 years of retelling it will end up like
the Ark of the Covenent story and we'll have another new ethnocentric
religion.

[Aerophotos]

Well i believe in the German UFO technology in WW2 and jet propelled
objects disc shapes.

If the German scientists and co were so much more advanced then the
Allies with jets and new inventions from 1930s-1945, who knows what else
was created that after the war the Allies dare not want the public to
see..

Even today WW1 secret dealing with US army records are still highly
guarded.. so i can suspect we only saw a tip of iceberg from ww2.

Remember the german as we know were very creative with jets in 40s in
the designs.. so they had big plans by the 50s if it had occurred.
Virtually all US designs followed from them.

Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they
are the only ones to be right? Thats is always how americans think,
someone esle designed it but they claim it.

Every country has secrets and protects them like a baby.. germany could
of had a UFO crashes and the world would of not even known bar the high
order of power... Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
germany.

Americans need to think outside their box.. and credit germans for alot
of their current technology and machines...

Even if UFos were not common knowledge in 1940s, they are nowdays.

Eunometic wrote:
>
> Bernardz > wrote in message news:<MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news>...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> > > Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> > > reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
> > > of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
> > > of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
> > > mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
> >
> > The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war.
>
> The designation V was for "Versuchs" the German word for experimental.
> Most german protduction aircraft had up to 30-100 V series aircraft
> V1, V2..V7 and that was a trend that seems to have been in place
> before the war etc on which various engine, weapons, modifications
> were carried out. Occaisionaly some enteres sevice eg when the Arado
> 234 V5 and V7 were hurridly taken out of testing to photo recon the
> D-day landings.
>
> The use of the term V1 and V2 for the Fi 103 cruise missile and A4
> Ballistic missile had the advantage of throing of allied intelligence.
> The first the allies know about the Fi 103 was photo recon of the ski
> ramps lauch sites german security was soi succesfull. Part of the
> reaon for the botched first days of lauch was that all launches
> involved a very complicated sequence that had to be done completely by
> memory. No notes were allowed!
>
> >
> >
> > > Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
> > > advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
> > > deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
> > > engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
> > > and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
> > > bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.
> > >
> > > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > > maintained the base.
>
> It was probably a designation that did exist as an intended
> experimental type. apart from the electo u-boats type XXI and XXIII
> there was the hydrogen peroxide walter boats and others using
> compressed oxygen and diesel based on a Dai
>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> > built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> > suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> > complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.
>
> I like this story. It was better than the crap they taught me in
> Sunday School. Give it 1000 years of retelling it will end up like
> the Ark of the Covenent story and we'll have another new ethnocentric
> religion.

[B2431]

>From: "tim gueguen"
>
>
>"Erich Adler" > wrote in message
om...
>> I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend the
>> developments brought on by the Allied bombing campaign against Germany
>> during the Second World War.
>>
>I see that many people, like you, are kooks who will believe anything that's
>put to them if it sounds "kewl."
>
>> But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
>> find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.
>>
>Discussion of supposed Germany flying saucers has turned up in a number of
>North American released books over the years, ranging from a '70s release
>written by Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel under a penname to Nick Cook's The
>Hunt For Zero Point.
>
>
>> The SS, however, had been involved in the black arts since the Nazis
>> took power and had both Hitler's and Himmler's backing to develope
>> occult craft from the Thule and Vril Gesellschafts.
>
>If only the Nazis had wasted more effort on such nonsense, assuming of
>course they actually
>
>>These black
>> societies centering around occult teachings and two psychic mediums
>> sometime in the 1930's built a flying disc that utilized technology
>> derived from occult science. It flew badly and crashed but worked
>> continued with the help of a Dr. Schumann who invented levitators
>> centered around a liquid mercury sphere and various spinning internal
>> disc plates that somehow caused a rotating magnetic field effect.
>>
>And your proof that any of the crap you're spewing is true is?
>
>tim gueguen 101867
>
It's all in a classified file at Wright-Pat, Area 51, a vault X (fill in as
needed) number of stories below the Pentagon, in a secret underground Antarctic
base the Nazis built or accidentally burned as trash. Your version may vary
based soley on your paranoia or sense of humour. Want to buy a tinfoil hat?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[David Windhorst]

Tex Houston wrote:

>"Bernardz" > wrote in message
>news:MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news...
>
>
>>In article >,
says...
>>
>>
>>>U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
>>>211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
>>>was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
>>>complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
>>>components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
>>>maintained the base.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
>>built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
>>suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
>>complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.
>>
>>
>
>
>I read a novel with this very plot. I no longer remember the name of that
>novel as I read two or three a week. I do recognize the difference between
>novels and non-fiction.
>
>Tex
>
>
>
>
Maybe it was "Genesis", by W. A. Harbinson? I'm kind of embarrassed to
admit knowing that, so here's my excuse -- back in the early 80s, when I
was working in a bookstore, Dell (the publisher) gave out a bunch of
free review copies. I finally got around to reading mine a couple years
later, when I was home with the flu or somesuch and needed the
distraction. It's not without some entertainment value, in a
conspiro-whacko sort of way.

[David Windhorst]

Erich Adler wrote:

>I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend the
>developments brought on by the Allied bombing campaign against Germany
>during the Second World War.
>
>But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
>find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.
>
>
>
>
Well, I apologize for being so ignorant on the subject, but that's what
I get for spending all my time over at www.daniken.com I can, however,
converse at length about Mayan laser pistols.

[robert arndt]

Bernardz > wrote in message news:<MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news>...
> In article >,
> says...
> > Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> > Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> > reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
> > of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
> > of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
> > mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
>
> The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war.

The Vril-1 was flying by 1939, not the Vril-7. Postwar authors often
mentioned a secret V-7 weapon in their books suggesting a continuation
of the Vergeltungswaffen after the V-1 buzzbomb, V-2 BM, V-3 gun, and
final V-4 missile.
>
>
> > Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
> > advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
> > deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
> > engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
> > and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
> > bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.
> >
> > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > maintained the base.
> >
> >
>
> Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.

Base 211 is often referenced as a code-name for the entire Antarctic
program and disc connection. And why WOULD a secret SS battalion be
listed among the combat divisions? The SS E-IV technical branch is
barely known along with the Black Sun SS religious Order, the DHvSS,
and the SS archeological unit that went to South America and Tibet...
among other places searching for sacred relics.
You really need to skip basic SS history and read up on the occult
aspects of the Third Reich before opening your mouth. You probably
aren't even aware that the Nazi Party (NSDAP) originated from the
occult Thule/Vril Gesellschafts from way back to 1917. Before that
Thule came from the German Order (aka Order of Teutons) of 1912 and
was also known as the "Luminous Lodge"- directly connected to the
Illuminati.
That's what makes all of this hard to deal with; the entire Third
Reich cannot be seperated from the occult, its symbolism, its mission,
and its plans for ultimate control over the planet.
Most people don't even recognize the swastika (Hakenkreuz) for what it
symbolizes- the black sun wheel that Thule and Vril worshipped. A dark
violet sun with dark powers. Vril is also the shortened version of
Vri-il "Like God". At the heart of all this is the worship of pure
evil.
Anyway, Base 211 is interesting to speculate on but no one could reach
it on land. Only a submarine could get there if the location was
known. I wonder if the US or USSR ever tried to find it in the trench?
The Germans probably mined the hell out of the area.

Rob

[Krztalizer]

>Even when new amazing jets arrived they were scarce
>on fuel and remained stationary on the ground. Up to 300 Messerschmitt
>262's were grounded for that reason alone.

I see this is going to be a fantasy piece.... ok.

Get out the popcorn.

Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[robert arndt]

> It's all in a classified file at Wright-Pat, Area 51, a vault X (fill in as
> needed) number of stories below the Pentagon, in a secret underground Antarctic
> base the Nazis built or accidentally burned as trash. Your version may vary
> based soley on your paranoia or sense of humour. Want to buy a tinfoil hat?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


Do you have access to Wright Pat's archives, or Area 51, or Lockheed
and Northrop's files? Perhaps you have access to the files of the CIA,
NSA, NRO, DoD, and USAF?
If not then shut the hell up. For a nation that staunchy denied any
disc development there sure have been a lot of revelations concerning
US disc developments in the past decade ranging from interest in AVROs
projects to Lockheed and Northrop's versions like the NS-97,
Lenticular Reentry Vehicle, WS 606A, etc...
Amazing isn't it? Flat out denial to "oh well, we DID actually
experiment with this stuff and perhaps we DO have a few black project
discs operating and YES the Germans DID have some disc aircraft in
WW2"... then "no further comments".
Are you an idiot Dan? Just because you didn't get to fly exotics while
in the USAF (probably because you were busy spit polishing latrines
for a living) doesn't mean someone else at Lockheed, Northrop, or the
CIA didn't.

Rob

p.s. please change your USAF, retired to USAF, retired and willfully
ignorant

[robert arndt]

Aerophotos > wrote in message >...
> Well i believe in the German UFO technology in WW2 and jet propelled
> objects disc shapes.
>
> If the German scientists and co were so much more advanced then the
> Allies with jets and new inventions from 1930s-1945, who knows what else
> was created that after the war the Allies dare not want the public to
> see..
>
> Even today WW1 secret dealing with US army records are still highly
> guarded.. so i can suspect we only saw a tip of iceberg from ww2.
>
> Remember the german as we know were very creative with jets in 40s in
> the designs.. so they had big plans by the 50s if it had occurred.
> Virtually all US designs followed from them.
>
> Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they
> are the only ones to be right? Thats is always how americans think,
> someone esle designed it but they claim it.
>
> Every country has secrets and protects them like a baby.. germany could
> of had a UFO crashes and the world would of not even known bar the high
> order of power... Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
> which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
> germany.
>
> Americans need to think outside their box.. and credit germans for alot
> of their current technology and machines...
>
> Even if UFos were not common knowledge in 1940s, they are nowdays.

Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain!
I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech
from 1945.
Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which
contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the
Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
Now compare that with the shabby US Army soldier with the old M-1 and
a Bazooka. Hell, in Korea we still looked inferior to the WW2 German
Waffen SS soldier who had cammo, IR, the STG-44 assault rifle, and Pzf
100.
So much for US superiority in all areas.

Rob

[B2431]

>From: (robert arndt)

>
>> It's all in a classified file at Wright-Pat, Area 51, a vault X (fill in as
>> needed) number of stories below the Pentagon, in a secret underground
>Antarctic
>> base the Nazis built or accidentally burned as trash. Your version may vary
>> based soley on your paranoia or sense of humour. Want to buy a tinfoil hat?
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
>Do you have access to Wright Pat's archives, or Area 51, or Lockheed
>and Northrop's files? Perhaps you have access to the files of the CIA,
>NSA, NRO, DoD, and USAF?

No, and neither do you.

>If not then shut the hell up.

Take your own advise.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Krztalizer]

>
>If the German scientists and co were so much more advanced then the
>Allies with jets and new inventions from 1930s-1945, who knows what else
>was created that after the war the Allies dare not want the public to
>see..

But their leads were momentary, if at all. Allied jet fighters were introduced
within months of German aircraft - and the main differences were primarily in
the life expectancy of the crew and MTBF for the airframes, so perhaps the idea
of 'first' didn't necessarily equate to 'better' or 'best'. We could have
rushed the P-80 into service a wee bit faster if we hung workers suspected of
slacking off or whipped them to make them work harder, but that isn't our way.
German centimetric airborne radar development was a full generation behind
Allied sets, allowing the cream of the NJG forces and hundreds of night bombers
to be destroyed by Allied nightfighters. The list of technological failures is
every bit as dramatic as their successes. Hell, the brown shirt "geniuses"
didn't even realize the Allies were reading their coded messages just as fast
as they were transmitted.

>Even today WW1 secret dealing with US army records are still highly
>guarded.. so i can suspect we only saw a tip of iceberg from ww2.

True, but it was a mid-1940s iceberg, not some sort of futuristic engineering
eutopia where normal linear development is suspended, I guess because the
Fuhrer willed it to be so? The critical limiting factors to all of the
wunderwaffe, SS discs and secret bases, are time and resources - they were
quickly running out of both and no matter how inventive, these guys were being
directed by criminally inefficient and certifiably crazy egomaniacs that had no
true interest in sciences. Just what sort of usable engineering gets created
within the walls of Bedlam?

>Remember the german as we know were very creative with jets in 40s in
>the designs.. so they had big plans by the 50s if it had occurred.
>Virtually all US designs followed from them.

Ahh, nuts.

>Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they
>are the only ones to be right? Thats is always how americans think,
>someone esle designed it but they claim it.

So we just swapped from a discussion about flying discs of the SS to sweeping
generalizations about how you perceive that "americans think"?

>Every country has secrets and protects them like a baby.. germany could
>of had a UFO crashes and the world would of not even known bar the high
>order of power...

Tell me that Goebbels wouldn't have been shouting it in the streets,
proclaiming how the invincible Luftwaffe had shot down the offending
other-worldly craft?

>Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
>which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
>germany.
>

There are many witnesses to everything else the SS did - and each of their
captured facilities eventually gave up their most disgusting, private secrets,
what makes this particular secret so much more...uhhh...keepable?

>Americans need to think outside their box.. and credit germans for alot
>of their current technology and machines...

We assimilate everyone's technology - just like Germany and just about
everyone else for that matter. I defy your suggestion that German engineers
operated in some sort of intellectual vaccuum, producing new items for our
drones to copy without every hearing of adjacent technologies in Allied
countries. Both sides germinated the other with ideas and concepts.

>Even if UFos were not common knowledge in 1940s, they are nowdays.

Nowdays is 60 years past the last RLM-authorized design - technologies and
materials undreamed of by the von Brauns and the Kammlers of the 1940s have
existed for decades, molding and driving aviation in entirely new directions.
Current "UFOs" have nothing at all to do with the Last Reich or its dreams.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[B2431]

>From: (robert arndt)


>I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech
>from 1945.
>Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
>would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which
>contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the
>Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
>Now compare that with the shabby US Army soldier with the old M-1 and
>a Bazooka.

>Rob

And if the war had just lasted 6 months longer you still would have lost and
have been the target of at least 2 atomic bombs. Get over it, you were defeated
by Russians, Brits, Americans etc in shabby uniforms, M1s and bolt action
rifles who would not have been there if you hadn't started the war in the first
place. All your wonder weapons wouldn't have staved off defeat. Your "leaders"
would still have suicided. Your country was in ruins politically, morally,
economically and militarily.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Aerophotos]

Krztalizer wrote:
>
> >
> >If the German scientists and co were so much more advanced then the
> >Allies with jets and new inventions from 1930s-1945, who knows what else
> >was created that after the war the Allies dare not want the public to
> >see..
>
> But their leads were momentary, if at all. Allied jet fighters were introduced
> within months of German aircraft - and the main differences were primarily in
> the life expectancy of the crew and MTBF for the airframes, so perhaps the idea
> of 'first' didn't necessarily equate to 'better' or 'best'. We could have
> rushed the P-80 into service a wee bit faster if we hung workers suspected of
> slacking off or whipped them to make them work harder, but that isn't our way.
> German centimetric airborne radar development was a full generation behind
> Allied sets, allowing the cream of the NJG forces and hundreds of night bombers
> to be destroyed by Allied nightfighters. The list of technological failures is
> every bit as dramatic as their successes. Hell, the brown shirt "geniuses"
> didn't even realize the Allies were reading their coded messages just as fast
> as they were transmitted.
>
> >Even today WW1 secret dealing with US army records are still highly
> >guarded.. so i can suspect we only saw a tip of iceberg from ww2.
>
> True, but it was a mid-1940s iceberg, not some sort of futuristic engineering
> eutopia where normal linear development is suspended, I guess because the
> Fuhrer willed it to be so? The critical limiting factors to all of the
> wunderwaffe, SS discs and secret bases, are time and resources - they were
> quickly running out of both and no matter how inventive, these guys were being
> directed by criminally inefficient and certifiably crazy egomaniacs that had no
> true interest in sciences. Just what sort of usable engineering gets created
> within the walls of Bedlam?
>
> >Remember the german as we know were very creative with jets in 40s in
> >the designs.. so they had big plans by the 50s if it had occurred.
> >Virtually all US designs followed from them.
>
> Ahh, nuts.
>
> >Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they
> >are the only ones to be right? Thats is always how americans think,
> >someone esle designed it but they claim it.
>
> So we just swapped from a discussion about flying discs of the SS to sweeping
> generalizations about how you perceive that "americans think"?
>
> >Every country has secrets and protects them like a baby.. germany could
> >of had a UFO crashes and the world would of not even known bar the high
> >order of power...
>
> Tell me that Goebbels wouldn't have been shouting it in the streets,
> proclaiming how the invincible Luftwaffe had shot down the offending
> other-worldly craft?

Really now...??? and do i hear George Bush or past Presidentos claiming
Area 51 open to public and news media?

No ....cause they like german high command wana keep it private and
secret not to scare the rest of the world...


>
> >Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
> >which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
> >germany.
> >
>
> There are many witnesses to everything else the SS did - and each of their
> captured facilities eventually gave up their most disgusting, private secrets,
> what makes this particular secret so much more...uhhh...keepable?

Well how come all the secrets of ww2 and since are still locked away
with people not allowed to speak????, got to wonder why they are all
gagged and threatened if they speak.

Remember that Area 51 guy Bob Lazar? how come the CIA and co made him
shut up? if he was a loony they wouldn't care but they made him be quiet
or else... so explain it


>
> >Americans need to think outside their box.. and credit germans for alot
> >of their current technology and machines...
>
> We assimilate everyone's technology - just like Germany and just about
> everyone else for that matter. I defy your suggestion that German engineers
> operated in some sort of intellectual vaccuum, producing new items for our
> drones to copy without every hearing of adjacent technologies in Allied
> countries. Both sides germinated the other with ideas and concepts.

How come every 1950s us jet was designed from captured german
technologies and scientists?


>
> >Even if UFos were not common knowledge in 1940s, they are nowdays.
>
> Nowdays is 60 years past the last RLM-authorized design - technologies and
> materials undreamed of by the von Brauns and the Kammlers of the 1940s have
> existed for decades, molding and driving aviation in entirely new directions.
> Current "UFOs" have nothing at all to do with the Last Reich or its dreams.

Gordon your a non believer and thus dont belong here, your time to leave
the discussion has arrived, goodbye narrow minded american..

German was technology and vastly superior in everything ... even the
Kevlar PASGT helmet design was copied. Bet you'll find some american
claim next?


>
> v/r
> Gordon\

[Krztalizer]

>
>Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
>would have

starved.

>Now compare that with the shabby US Army soldier with the old M-1 and
>a Bazooka. Hell, in Korea we still looked inferior to the WW2 German
>Waffen SS soldier who had cammo, IR, the STG-44 assault rifle, and Pzf
>100.

Well, except they were extinct by then. "If pigs had wings"...

>So much for US superiority in all areas.

There is only one statistic that matters.

Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Krztalizer]

>
>Really now...??? and do i hear George Bush or past Presidentos claiming
>Area 51 open to public and news media?

But we aren't discussing Bush or now, we are talking about the ability of the
German propaganda machine to completely shut down a news event not only through
the period of the Third Reich's existance, but to maintain the deception for 6
decades after the fall of that government. Wow, they must be better at hiding
UFOs than they were at winning wars!

>No ....cause they like german high command wana keep it private and
>secret not to scare the rest of the world...

You seriously think that anything Bush does today will be a secret for the next
sixty years? :) Area 51 will be a theme park by then.

>> >Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
>> >which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
>> >germany.
>> >
>>
>> There are many witnesses to everything else the SS did - and each of their
>> captured facilities eventually gave up their most disgusting, private
>secrets,
>> what makes this particular secret so much more...uhhh...keepable?
>
>Well how come all the secrets of ww2 and since are still locked away
>with people not allowed to speak????

I've yet to see black suited figures come in and berate me for my views on WWII
aviation - maybe its the way you speak?

got to wonder why they are all
>gagged and threatened if they speak.
>
>Remember that Area 51 guy Bob Lazar? how come the CIA and co made him
>shut up? if he was a loony they wouldn't care but they made him be quiet
>or else... so explain it

I've now seen him interviewed about a dozen times, quoted on websites from here
to Tau Ceti, and STILL he doesn't understand those little post-it notes with
CIA letterhead commanding him to be quiet!

>> >Americans need to think outside their box.. and credit germans for alot
>> >of their current technology and machines...
>>
>> We assimilate everyone's technology - just like Germany and just about
>> everyone else for that matter. I defy your suggestion that German
>engineers
>> operated in some sort of intellectual vaccuum, producing new items for our
>> drones to copy without every hearing of adjacent technologies in Allied
>> countries. Both sides germinated the other with ideas and concepts.
>
>How come every 1950s us jet was designed from captured german
>technologies and scientists?

How come? Well, they weren't. I have the benefit of a proper view of the
evidence. In the basement where I work, I have decades of every part, every
design, that Ryan, Consolidated, Convair, and other companies worked on in the
postwar years. What is apparent is that German technologies were not always
better - just different; and we had the manpower and materials to go off in
directions that simply weren't open to German engineers.

>> >Even if UFos were not common knowledge in 1940s, they are nowdays.
>>
>> Nowdays is 60 years past the last RLM-authorized design - technologies and
>> materials undreamed of by the von Brauns and the Kammlers of the 1940s have
>> existed for decades, molding and driving aviation in entirely new
>directions.
>> Current "UFOs" have nothing at all to do with the Last Reich or its dreams.
>
>Gordon your a non believer and thus dont belong here, your time to leave
>the discussion has arrived, goodbye narrow minded american..

When you start up your own newsgroup, you can decide who posts. Until then,
get used to seeing me laugh at your lunacy.

>German was technology and vastly superior in everything ... even the
>Kevlar PASGT helmet design was copied.

What German helmet was made of Kevlar, bright one?

> Bet you'll find some american
>claim next?

No, I try not to make 'claims', I simply take pot shots at claims that don't
hold air.

Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Aerophotos]

Krztalizer wrote:
>
> >
> >Really now...??? and do i hear George Bush or past Presidentos claiming
> >Area 51 open to public and news media?
>
> But we aren't discussing Bush or now, we are talking about the ability of the
> German propaganda machine to completely shut down a news event not only through
> the period of the Third Reich's existance, but to maintain the deception for 6
> decades after the fall of that government. Wow, they must be better at hiding
> UFOs than they were at winning wars!
>
> >No ....cause they like german high command wana keep it private and
> >secret not to scare the rest of the world...
>
> You seriously think that anything Bush does today will be a secret for the next
> sixty years? :) Area 51 will be a theme park by then.

Gordon yet again please show fit on anything top secret since ww2 been
released from Black Projects etc with UFO technologies.. problem is you
cant... the US govt is too paranoid and scared if the world finds out

>
> >> >Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
> >> >which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
> >> >germany.
> >> >
> >>
> >> There are many witnesses to everything else the SS did - and each of their
> >> captured facilities eventually gave up their most disgusting, private
> >secrets,
> >> what makes this particular secret so much more...uhhh...keepable?
> >
> >Well how come all the secrets of ww2 and since are still locked away
> >with people not allowed to speak????
>
> I've yet to see black suited figures come in and berate me for my views on WWII
> aviation - maybe its the way you speak?

Really and flying mustangs and etc around killing other axis aircraft
rates? You are a lunatic. Try and keep on topic next time.
>
> got to wonder why they are all
> >gagged and threatened if they speak.
> >
> >Remember that Area 51 guy Bob Lazar? how come the CIA and co made him
> >shut up? if he was a loony they wouldn't care but they made him be quiet
> >or else... so explain it
>
> I've now seen him interviewed about a dozen times, quoted on websites from here
> to Tau Ceti, and STILL he doesn't understand those little post-it notes with
> CIA letterhead commanding him to be quiet!

Even if he still is speaking and being ordered to be gagged by higher
ones, what does this tell you.. or you to limited in understanding to
get the big picture?

>
> >> >Americans need to think outside their box.. and credit germans for alot
> >> >of their current technology and machines...
> >>
> >> We assimilate everyone's technology - just like Germany and just about
> >> everyone else for that matter. I defy your suggestion that German
> >engineers
> >> operated in some sort of intellectual vaccuum, producing new items for our
> >> drones to copy without every hearing of adjacent technologies in Allied
> >> countries. Both sides germinated the other with ideas and concepts.
> >
> >How come every 1950s us jet was designed from captured german
> >technologies and scientists?
>
> How come? Well, they weren't. I have the benefit of a proper view of the
> evidence. In the basement where I work, I have decades of every part, every
> design, that Ryan, Consolidated, Convair, and other companies worked on in the
> postwar years. What is apparent is that German technologies were not always
> better - just different; and we had the manpower and materials to go off in
> directions that simply weren't open to German engineers.

But still german techno was way ahead you guys had to adopt their wing
tunnel tests to get the XP-86 thru the sound barrier in time.

Thats one example of many ways the germans had it in for you americans.

>
> >> >Even if UFos were not common knowledge in 1940s, they are nowdays.
> >>
> >> Nowdays is 60 years past the last RLM-authorized design - technologies and
> >> materials undreamed of by the von Brauns and the Kammlers of the 1940s have
> >> existed for decades, molding and driving aviation in entirely new
> >directions.
> >> Current "UFOs" have nothing at all to do with the Last Reich or its dreams.
> >
> >Gordon your a non believer and thus dont belong here, your time to leave
> >the discussion has arrived, goodbye narrow minded american..
>
> When you start up your own newsgroup, you can decide who posts. Until then,
> get used to seeing me laugh at your lunacy.

And i shall return the mirror to you also, every time you post.

>
> >German was technology and vastly superior in everything ... even the
> >Kevlar PASGT helmet design was copied.
>
> What German helmet was made of Kevlar, bright one?

Notice.. i said design ... hence the protection of ears and neck.

Please try and read the items in a correct manner next time.

>
> > Bet you'll find some american
> >claim next?
>
> No, I try not to make 'claims', I simply take pot shots at claims that don't
> hold air.

and your squirming still cause germans were ahead even 60yrs later.


>
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Aerophotos" > wrote in message
...
> Well i believe in the German UFO technology in WW2 and jet propelled
> objects disc shapes.
>

No surprise there.

> If the German scientists and co were so much more advanced then the
> Allies with jets and new inventions from 1930s-1945, who knows what else
> was created that after the war the Allies dare not want the public to
> see..
>

They werent. The Gloster Meteor entered service before the Me-262
and the British and US jet engines were more powerful and reliable.

> Even today WW1 secret dealing with US army records are still highly
> guarded.. so i can suspect we only saw a tip of iceberg from ww2.
>
> Remember the german as we know were very creative with jets in 40s in
> the designs.. so they had big plans by the 50s if it had occurred.
> Virtually all US designs followed from them.
>

Incorrect

> Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they
> are the only ones to be right? Thats is always how americans think,
> someone esle designed it but they claim it.
>

Probably because Jack Northrop flew his first flying wing aircraft
in 1940

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

"robert arndt" > wrote in message
om...

>
> Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain!
> I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech
> from 1945.
> Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
> would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which
> contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the
> Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.

Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply.

The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed
the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units
were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies
from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been
motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the
SS might be well supplied with weapons and material
the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his
own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action
Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed
hand grenades. The Panzershreck was of course inspired
by the Bazooka

Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked
the Germans would have been facing large numbers
of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were
superior to anything they had and fleets of the new US and
British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the
arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no
other way to go than down.

Keith

[Dave Kearton]

"Aerophotos" > wrote in message
...
|



OK help us out here, is this Jeff the Mirage pilot or Andrew the other son
or Jolly the chicken choker ?


Couldn't suck in that stomach for long, could you ?



Cheers


Dave Kearton

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
Keith Willshaw > wrote:
>> Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they

>Probably because Jack Northrop flew his first flying wing aircraft
>in 1940

And the Westland-Hill Pterodactyl was flying in the late 1920s, IIRC.
A later version lost out to the Hawker Demon as the RAF two-seat
fighter of the mid-30s, so on this you're right: Flying wings were
*nothing* new, and neither were tailless aeroplanes.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[Keith Willshaw]

"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Keith Willshaw > wrote:
> >> Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they
>
> >Probably because Jack Northrop flew his first flying wing aircraft
> >in 1940
>
> And the Westland-Hill Pterodactyl was flying in the late 1920s, IIRC.
> A later version lost out to the Hawker Demon as the RAF two-seat
> fighter of the mid-30s, so on this you're right: Flying wings were
> *nothing* new, and neither were tailless aeroplanes.
>

I'd forgotten about the Pterodactyl , with regard to disc craft
there was also the The Lee Richards Annular wing of 1911
and the Antes Annular wing air craft of 1933

http://users.skynet.be/nestofdragons/weird_08_ringwings.htm

Keith

[M. Santoro]

Except, of course, for the fact that the US along with its allies won
the war.

Then again, the US possessed overwhelming technological superiority in
Vietnam, and still lost.

So what's your point? Mine is that being "technologically" superior
doesn't win wars. If war is an extension of politics by other (more
violent) means (as per Clausewitzl, Lenin and Mao), it's will that
matters. With that in mind, the lessons of both WWII and Vietnam have
already been written. The lessons of ongoing conflicts have yet to be
discerned.

I'd also argue that no nation is superior "in all areas." Certainly
not when we're talking about a conflict that ended nearly 60 years
ago, and in favor of the technologically "inferior" side. When
discussing the merits or deficiencies of US military power, please
choose a more current subject. There are, after all, plenty more
current episodes to choose from.

- M.S.

(robert arndt) wrote in message >...
> Aerophotos > wrote in message >...
> > Well i believe in the German UFO technology in WW2 and jet propelled
> > objects disc shapes.
> >
> > If the German scientists and co were so much more advanced then the
> > Allies with jets and new inventions from 1930s-1945, who knows what else
> > was created that after the war the Allies dare not want the public to
> > see..
> >
> > Even today WW1 secret dealing with US army records are still highly
> > guarded.. so i can suspect we only saw a tip of iceberg from ww2.
> >
> > Remember the german as we know were very creative with jets in 40s in
> > the designs.. so they had big plans by the 50s if it had occurred.
> > Virtually all US designs followed from them.
> >
> > Flying wings or discs were nothing new... why do americans think they
> > are the only ones to be right? Thats is always how americans think,
> > someone esle designed it but they claim it.
> >
> > Every country has secrets and protects them like a baby.. germany could
> > of had a UFO crashes and the world would of not even known bar the high
> > order of power... Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
> > which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
> > germany.
> >
> > Americans need to think outside their box.. and credit germans for alot
> > of their current technology and machines...
> >
> > Even if UFos were not common knowledge in 1940s, they are nowdays.
>
> Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain!
> I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech
> from 1945.
> Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
> would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which
> contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the
> Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
> Now compare that with the shabby US Army soldier with the old M-1 and
> a Bazooka. Hell, in Korea we still looked inferior to the WW2 German
> Waffen SS soldier who had cammo, IR, the STG-44 assault rifle, and Pzf
> 100.
> So much for US superiority in all areas.
>
> Rob

[M. J. Powell]

In message >, robert
arndt > writes
>
Snip

>Anyway, Base 211 is interesting to speculate on but no one could reach
>it on land. Only a submarine could get there if the location was
>known. I wonder if the US or USSR ever tried to find it in the trench?
>The Germans probably mined the hell out of the area.

I expect that it's long gone. The icebergs that break off Antarctica
will have taken any base with them.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

[Bernardz]

> >
> >
> > > Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
> > > advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
> > > deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
> > > engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
> > > and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
> > > bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.
> > >
> > > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > > maintained the base.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> > built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> > suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> > complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.
>
> Base 211 is often referenced as a code-name for the entire Antarctic
> program and disc connection.

It is a very unusual German designation.

> And why WOULD a secret SS battalion be
> listed among the combat divisions?

I did not just check combat divisions! I looked at all. I also looked at
the units that we have little references and that *may* have existed.
Nothing like it. By the way German military records are very good.

Generally if it was an SS battalion it would be so designated eg
SS-Ausbildungs-Battalion or SS-Wirtschafts-Battalion but not always.



> The SS E-IV technical branch is
> barely known along with the Black Sun SS religious Order, the DHvSS,
> and the SS archeological unit that went to South America and Tibet...
> among other places searching for sacred relics.

It was listed as SS Tibet mission which would make sense in this context
in other words it would not a military unit as such at all.


> You really need to skip basic SS history and read up on the occult
> aspects of the Third Reich before opening your mouth. You probably
> aren't even aware that the Nazi Party (NSDAP) originated from the
> occult Thule/Vril Gesellschafts from way back to 1917. Before that
> Thule came from the German Order (aka Order of Teutons) of 1912 and
> was also known as the "Luminous Lodge"- directly connected to the
> Illuminati.

I think we know of the Thule society here.

> That's what makes all of this hard to deal with; the entire Third
> Reich cannot be seperated from the occult, its symbolism, its mission,
> and its plans for ultimate control over the planet.
> Most people don't even recognize the swastika (Hakenkreuz) for what it
> symbolizes- the black sun wheel that Thule and Vril worshipped. A dark
> violet sun with dark powers. Vril is also the shortened version of
> Vri-il "Like God". At the heart of all this is the worship of pure
> evil.

Hitler had little interest in this sort of stuff.

> Anyway, Base 211 is interesting to speculate on but no one could reach
> it on land. Only a submarine could get there if the location was
> known. I wonder if the US or USSR ever tried to find it in the trench?
> The Germans probably mined the hell out of the area.

You cannot find what does not exist.


>
> Rob
>

--
To make the economy go, some one has to work.

Observations of Bernard - No 45

[The Enlightenment]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> >
> >If the German scientists and co were so much more advanced then the
> >Allies with jets and new inventions from 1930s-1945, who knows what
else
> >was created that after the war the Allies dare not want the public
to
> >see..
>

A bemusing little troll. It's equivalent to an American saying that
the Philidephia Experiment really happened. Interesting how everyone
including some mature posters is hooked in though.

> But their leads were momentary, if at all. Allied jet fighters were
introduced
> within months of German aircraft - and the main differences were
primarily in
> the life expectancy of the crew and MTBF for the airframes, so
perhaps the idea
> of 'first' didn't necessarily equate to 'better' or 'best'.

To be fair compromises in some aspects of quality were necessary to
redress the quantitative advantages of the allies. the life of a
German airframe was not much in anycase. Note the work they did do
on ejection seats.

> We could have
> rushed the P-80 into service a wee bit faster if we hung workers
suspected of
> slacking off or whipped them to make them work harder, but that
isn't our way.

Actually forced or conscripted labour in production was fairly well
treated and fed, it had to be. It was that labour used in the
exacavation of underground works that appears to have suffered
severely.


> German centimetric airborne radar development was a full generation
behind
> Allied sets, allowing the cream of the NJG forces and hundreds of
night bombers
> to be destroyed by Allied nightfighters. The list of technological
failures is
> every bit as dramatic as their successes.

Quite true. The time periode between the discovery of the rotterdam
Garate (a H2S Magnetron lost on a Sterling in Feb 1943) and the
appearence of A few FuG 244 equiped Ju 88G7s in Jan 1945 is about 23
months.

The original German magnetron and microwave development team had been
conscripted into the army and had to be recalled so that expertise was
available. Even before that was done the presence of the magnetron
on ground mapping radar was taken as proof that microwave radar was
not good.

> Hell, the brown shirt "geniuses"
> didn't even realize the Allies were reading their coded messages
just as fast
> as they were transmitted.

Actually craking the code required a mistake to be made and a long
message and when keys changed it could be a while before the were
cracked again. When the u boats began receiving individual messages
in late 1944 with their own unique keys the codes were never cracked.


>
> >Even today WW1 secret dealing with US army records are still highly
> >guarded.. so i can suspect we only saw a tip of iceberg from ww2.
>
> True, but it was a mid-1940s iceberg, not some sort of futuristic
engineering
> eutopia where normal linear development is suspended, I guess
because the
> Fuhrer willed it to be so? The critical limiting factors to all of
the
> wunderwaffe, SS discs and secret bases, are time and resources -
they were
> quickly running out of both and no matter how inventive, these guys
were being
> directed by criminally inefficient and certifiably crazy egomaniacs
that had no
> true interest in sciences. Just what sort of usable engineering
gets created
> within the walls of Bedlam?

There truely were some unnecesary stuff up that could have been
avoided if the leadership understood how technology progesses. The
fact that all German radars shared a single frequency and the secrecy
sourounding the effectiveness soruning 'duppel' or the German version
of Window which had so much secrecy placed upon it proper
countermeasures could not be developed.

[Stephen Harding]

B2431 wrote:

>>From: "tim gueguen"
>>
>>
>>"Erich Adler" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>>>I see that many people here is the United States cannot comprehend the
>>>developments brought on by the Allied bombing campaign against Germany
>>>during the Second World War.
>>>
>>
>>I see that many people, like you, are kooks who will believe anything that's
>>put to them if it sounds "kewl."
>>
>>
>>>But over in Germany many such books exist on the subject you Americans
>>>find impossible to discuss civily, German disc planes.
>>>
>>
>>Discussion of supposed Germany flying saucers has turned up in a number of
>>North American released books over the years, ranging from a '70s release
>>written by Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel under a penname to Nick Cook's The
>>Hunt For Zero Point.
>>
>>
>>
>>>The SS, however, had been involved in the black arts since the Nazis
>>>took power and had both Hitler's and Himmler's backing to develope
>>>occult craft from the Thule and Vril Gesellschafts.
>>
>>If only the Nazis had wasted more effort on such nonsense, assuming of
>>course they actually
>>
>>
>>>These black
>>>societies centering around occult teachings and two psychic mediums
>>>sometime in the 1930's built a flying disc that utilized technology
>>>derived from occult science. It flew badly and crashed but worked
>>>continued with the help of a Dr. Schumann who invented levitators
>>>centered around a liquid mercury sphere and various spinning internal
>>>disc plates that somehow caused a rotating magnetic field effect.
>>
>>And your proof that any of the crap you're spewing is true is?
>>
>
> It's all in a classified file at Wright-Pat, Area 51, a vault X (fill in as
> needed) number of stories below the Pentagon, in a secret underground Antarctic
> base the Nazis built or accidentally burned as trash. Your version may vary
> based soley on your paranoia or sense of humour. Want to buy a tinfoil hat?

I'd just like to know how come we don't see anything derived from
these "crashed UFO's"? Keeping something secret and never actually
using it sort of defeats the purpose of having it.

Is it simply the technology and materials are so far advanced of
what we are capable of producing, we have no choice but to store
it in a vault until Earthling science and technology catch up?

Sort of like expecting a cave man to copy a microprocessor.


SMH

[The Enlightenment]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> >
> > Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain!
> > I'll give you another example comparison between US and German
tech
> > from 1945.
> > Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
> > would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage
(which
> > contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle,
the
> > Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
>
> Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply.

The British were reliant on Americans for resupply.

The reality is that Germany was a resource poor nation that had only
forrest and coal and horse drawn logistics was all that was possible
withou access to cheap steel and oil.

In the meantime the British were Lording it up secure in the monopoly
and control they had of the the rerources of their colonies oil,
rubber, tin, manganese, nickel, chromium, tungsten, steel etc. They
forced boer familes intio concentration camps where they died of
disease and poor food to secure yet more colonies, they helped Turks
to invade Bulgaria and Just to swipe at the Russians who were heling
their christian allies and all sorts of excuses to cut down anyone
that might one day rival them by fair means.

>
> The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed
> the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units
> were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies
> from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been
> motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the
> SS might be well supplied with weapons and material
> the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his
> own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action
> Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed
> hand grenades.


> The Panzershreck was of course inspired
> by the Bazooka

The Bazooka was a miserable weapon, panzerschreck adressed its
weaknesses. Allied soldiers in Normany had to use captured
panzerschreks and panzerfausts becuase the bazooka and the infinetely
more miserable PIAT were so ineffective.

The Panzerfaust was however a very effective weapon that owes nothing
to the bazooka. In its ultimate form the reloadable Panzerfaust 250
it was the basis of the RPG-7. A weapon more memorable and usefull
than the clumsy, bulky and awkward bazooka.


>
> Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked
> the Germans would have been facing large numbers
> of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were
> superior to anything they had

The more advanced panther tanks and their new schmalturm turrets had
gyro-stabalised turrets, 88mm cannon and stereoscopic range finders so
they would have matched the newer UK and USA tanks.


> and fleets of the new US and
> British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the
> arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no
> other way to go than down.

You've been around long enough to know that German arms production
peaked in 1944.


The Germans and allies were well matched intellectually. The Germans
lagged in some areas and lead in some. In the end they, and the axis,
were defeated by far superior resources: the USA, UK, Australia,
Canada, NZ, Soviet Union.

This nazi sorcer stuff is almost as much nonsense as the Area 51 and
Philidelpahia experiment nonsense. I say almost as much becuase theor
possibly were some type of VTOL and lenticular vehicle research work
using normal aerodynamic principles.


>
> Keith
>
>
>

[Stephen Harding]

Aerophotos wrote:

> Gordon yet again please show fit on anything top secret since ww2 been
> released from Black Projects etc with UFO technologies.. problem is you
> cant... the US govt is too paranoid and scared if the world finds out

What would happen if the world found out?

If "Opportunity" or "Spriit" or "Beagle2" get a picture of a little
green man looking back at them from a hole in the Martian surface,
must the public be denied this particular snapshot? One more
addition to the vault under Area 51?

What if one of these research landers make the mistake of drilling
a test hole through the little guy's head??!!! The first known
interplanetary war?

A fine argument for humans exploring space rather than robots!


SMH

[Keith Willshaw]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> > >
> > > Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain!
> > > I'll give you another example comparison between US and German
> tech
> > > from 1945.
> > > Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
> > > would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage
> (which
> > > contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle,
> the
> > > Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
> >
> > Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply.
>
> The British were reliant on Americans for resupply.
>

Of food mainly and of course we had to import our oil
but much of it came from the fields in Iraq and Iran.

> The reality is that Germany was a resource poor nation that had only
> forrest and coal and horse drawn logistics was all that was possible
> withou access to cheap steel and oil.
>

They made steel the same way we did with coke , limestone and
iron ore and Germany had access to cheap high grade iron ore from
Scandinavia. Britain had to reopen old low grade mines such as
those around Skelton. Germany actually had access to MUCH
more steel than Britain did since it controlled the industries of
France , Belgium and Czechoslovakia but it managed to use them
so poorly it could match Britain in production of weapons and
the UK also managed to build an Ocean going fleet.

> In the meantime the British were Lording it up secure in the monopoly
> and control they had of the the rerources of their colonies oil,
> rubber, tin, manganese, nickel, chromium, tungsten, steel etc.

Rubber originally came from Malaya but with that in Japanese
hands alternate supplies came from Brazil, an ally

Tin , manganese, nickel etc came from many sources
including the USA, South Africa, Canada and the USSR

Steel was home produced using British coal ,limestone and
iron ore.


> They
> forced boer familes intio concentration camps where they died of
> disease and poor food to secure yet more colonies,

That was of course 40 years before the period we are discussing.
By 1940 South Africa was moving towards independence

> they helped Turks
> to invade Bulgaria and Just to swipe at the Russians who were heling
> their christian allies and all sorts of excuses to cut down anyone
> that might one day rival them by fair means.
>

Hardly, the Turks invaded Bulgaria in 1396

The Crimean war was occasioned by the Russian invasion
of Bulgaria

Do try and read a history book now and then

> >
> > The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed
> > the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units
> > were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies
> > from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been
> > motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the
> > SS might be well supplied with weapons and material
> > the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his
> > own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action
> > Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed
> > hand grenades.
>
>
> > The Panzershreck was of course inspired
> > by the Bazooka
>
> The Bazooka was a miserable weapon, panzerschreck adressed its
> weaknesses. Allied soldiers in Normany had to use captured
> panzerschreks and panzerfausts becuase the bazooka and the infinetely
> more miserable PIAT were so ineffective.
>

They were certainly decent weapons but the Piat and bazooka
could and did kill most German tanks including the Panther

> The Panzerfaust was however a very effective weapon that owes nothing
> to the bazooka. In its ultimate form the reloadable Panzerfaust 250
> it was the basis of the RPG-7. A weapon more memorable and usefull
> than the clumsy, bulky and awkward bazooka.
>

Memorable if you survided firing it with its max range of around 30 m
which was raised to 60m in later versions


>
> >
> > Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked
> > the Germans would have been facing large numbers
> > of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were
> > superior to anything they had
>
> The more advanced panther tanks and their new schmalturm turrets had
> gyro-stabalised turrets, 88mm cannon and stereoscopic range finders so
> they would have matched the newer UK and USA tanks.
>

That turns out to be incorrect, the Centurion with its stabilised
17 pounder main gun was designed to be proof against the
German 88 and considerably outmatched the Soviet tanks
it met in combat in Korea. It still serves in the IDF today.

The M-26 with its 90mm Gun performed well against German
tanks towards the end of the war and was supplemented later
that year by the M-45 with its 105mm gun.

Both were produced in considerable quantity

>
> > and fleets of the new US and
> > British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the
> > arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no
> > other way to go than down.
>
> You've been around long enough to know that German arms production
> peaked in 1944.
>

A long way behind the prduction of weapons in the USA
Britain and the USSR all of which were still climbing
in 1945

>
> The Germans and allies were well matched intellectually. The Germans
> lagged in some areas and lead in some. In the end they, and the axis,
> were defeated by far superior resources: the USA, UK, Australia,
> Canada, NZ, Soviet Union.
>

The Germans lacked a clue when it came to prioritising
development and were seriously deficient in production.

The fact remains that Britain alone outproduced Germany
in several key areas including aircraft production as early as
1940.

Keith

[Keith Willshaw]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "The Enlightenment" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > >
> > > >
> > > > Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain!
> > > > I'll give you another example comparison between US and German
> > tech
> > > > from 1945.
> > > > Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
> > > > would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage
> > (which
> > > > contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle,
> > the
> > > > Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
> > >
> > > Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply.
> >
> > The British were reliant on Americans for resupply.
> >
>
> Of food mainly and of course we had to import our oil
> but much of it came from the fields in Iraq and Iran.
>
> > The reality is that Germany was a resource poor nation that had only
> > forrest and coal and horse drawn logistics was all that was possible
> > withou access to cheap steel and oil.
> >
>
> They made steel the same way we did with coke , limestone and
> iron ore and Germany had access to cheap high grade iron ore from
> Scandinavia. Britain had to reopen old low grade mines such as
> those around Skelton. Germany actually had access to MUCH
> more steel than Britain did since it controlled the industries of
> France , Belgium and Czechoslovakia but it managed to use them
> so poorly it could match Britain in production of weapons and

This should read couldnt match Britain

> the UK also managed to build an Ocean going fleet.
>
> > In the meantime the British were Lording it up secure in the monopoly
> > and control they had of the the rerources of their colonies oil,
> > rubber, tin, manganese, nickel, chromium, tungsten, steel etc.
>
> Rubber originally came from Malaya but with that in Japanese
> hands alternate supplies came from Brazil, an ally
>
> Tin , manganese, nickel etc came from many sources
> including the USA, South Africa, Canada and the USSR
>
> Steel was home produced using British coal ,limestone and
> iron ore.
>
>
> > They
> > forced boer familes intio concentration camps where they died of
> > disease and poor food to secure yet more colonies,
>
> That was of course 40 years before the period we are discussing.
> By 1940 South Africa was moving towards independence
>
> > they helped Turks
> > to invade Bulgaria and Just to swipe at the Russians who were heling
> > their christian allies and all sorts of excuses to cut down anyone
> > that might one day rival them by fair means.
> >
>
> Hardly, the Turks invaded Bulgaria in 1396
>
> The Crimean war was occasioned by the Russian invasion
> of Bulgaria
>
> Do try and read a history book now and then
>
> > >
> > > The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed
> > > the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units
> > > were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies
> > > from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been
> > > motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the
> > > SS might be well supplied with weapons and material
> > > the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his
> > > own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action
> > > Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed
> > > hand grenades.
> >
> >
> > > The Panzershreck was of course inspired
> > > by the Bazooka
> >
> > The Bazooka was a miserable weapon, panzerschreck adressed its
> > weaknesses. Allied soldiers in Normany had to use captured
> > panzerschreks and panzerfausts becuase the bazooka and the infinetely
> > more miserable PIAT were so ineffective.
> >
>
> They were certainly decent weapons but the Piat and bazooka
> could and did kill most German tanks including the Panther
>
> > The Panzerfaust was however a very effective weapon that owes nothing
> > to the bazooka. In its ultimate form the reloadable Panzerfaust 250
> > it was the basis of the RPG-7. A weapon more memorable and usefull
> > than the clumsy, bulky and awkward bazooka.
> >
>
> Memorable if you survided firing it with its max range of around 30 m
> which was raised to 60m in later versions
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked
> > > the Germans would have been facing large numbers
> > > of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were
> > > superior to anything they had
> >
> > The more advanced panther tanks and their new schmalturm turrets had
> > gyro-stabalised turrets, 88mm cannon and stereoscopic range finders so
> > they would have matched the newer UK and USA tanks.
> >
>
> That turns out to be incorrect, the Centurion with its stabilised
> 17 pounder main gun was designed to be proof against the
> German 88 and considerably outmatched the Soviet tanks
> it met in combat in Korea. It still serves in the IDF today.
>
> The M-26 with its 90mm Gun performed well against German
> tanks towards the end of the war and was supplemented later
> that year by the M-45 with its 105mm gun.
>
> Both were produced in considerable quantity
>
> >
> > > and fleets of the new US and
> > > British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the
> > > arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no
> > > other way to go than down.
> >
> > You've been around long enough to know that German arms production
> > peaked in 1944.
> >
>
> A long way behind the prduction of weapons in the USA
> Britain and the USSR all of which were still climbing
> in 1945
>
> >
> > The Germans and allies were well matched intellectually. The Germans
> > lagged in some areas and lead in some. In the end they, and the axis,
> > were defeated by far superior resources: the USA, UK, Australia,
> > Canada, NZ, Soviet Union.
> >
>
> The Germans lacked a clue when it came to prioritising
> development and were seriously deficient in production.
>
> The fact remains that Britain alone outproduced Germany
> in several key areas including aircraft production as early as
> 1940.
>
> Keith
>
>

[Ron]

>Remember that Area 51 guy Bob Lazar? how come the CIA and co made him
>>shut up? if he was a loony they wouldn't care but they made him be quiet
>>or else... so explain it

Bob Lazar was so full of ****. No one ever made him shut up. He has zero
credibility among those who watch black projects and Groom Lake. The only ones
who still think anything of him, are conspiracy kooks.

>Its like saying Groom Lake is controlled by the CIA,
>>> >which it is... SS could of easily controlled any UFO programs in
>>> >germany.
>>> >

No, it is not. Much of the Range is DOE, and technically I believe Groom Lake
to be a detachment of Edwards. But yes, I am sure some CIA testing does go on
there. But its not their base.

>>Well how come all the secrets of ww2 and since are still locked away
>>with people not allowed to speak????

Name one..


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

[robert arndt]

Bernardz > wrote in message news:<MPG.1a9caa84d27558209898fd@news>...
> > >
> > >
> > > > Vergeltungswaffen, just Vril-7. Meanwhile Thule came up with a more
> > > > advanced Triebwerk that utilized Coler's free energy machine, a Van
> > > > deGraf generator, a mercury sphere, and spherical levitators. This
> > > > engine was installed in the large Haunebu craft that flew the Atlantic
> > > > and made trips to an area Hitler knew would be safe from Allied
> > > > bombing, New Schwabenland in Antartica.
> > > >
> > > > U-boats carried technicians and scientists to a base there, Number
> > > > 211, via an undersea trench that stretched the entire way through what
> > > > was know formerly as Queen Maud Land. Base 211 was carved into a cave
> > > > complex similar to Nordhausen and supplied by transport subs,
> > > > components of which even the Type XXVI were taken. SS Antartic troops
> > > > maintained the base.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Never heard of a U-boat base being given a number. No Type XXVI was ever
> > > built in the war. Work only started on it, late in the war so how is it
> > > suppose to be available in 1939? Nor is SS Antartic listed in a
> > > complete list of every SS-Divisionen formed during WWII.
> >
> > Base 211 is often referenced as a code-name for the entire Antarctic
> > program and disc connection.
>
> It is a very unusual German designation.

Try "Station 211", it was sometimes referred to as that.
>
> > And why WOULD a secret SS battalion be
> > listed among the combat divisions?
>
> I did not just check combat divisions! I looked at all. I also looked at
> the units that we have little references and that *may* have existed.
> Nothing like it. By the way German military records are very good.

Generally so... except for those destroyed on purpose and of course
those captured by the Allies and compartmentalized by various
intelligence agencies.
>
> Generally if it was an SS battalion it would be so designated eg
> SS-Ausbildungs-Battalion or SS-Wirtschafts-Battalion but not always.
>
>
>
> > The SS E-IV technical branch is
> > barely known along with the Black Sun SS religious Order, the DHvSS,
> > and the SS archeological unit that went to South America and Tibet...
> > among other places searching for sacred relics.
>
> It was listed as SS Tibet mission which would make sense in this context
> in other words it would not a military unit as such at all.
>
>
> > You really need to skip basic SS history and read up on the occult
> > aspects of the Third Reich before opening your mouth. You probably
> > aren't even aware that the Nazi Party (NSDAP) originated from the
> > occult Thule/Vril Gesellschafts from way back to 1917. Before that
> > Thule came from the German Order (aka Order of Teutons) of 1912 and
> > was also known as the "Luminous Lodge"- directly connected to the
> > Illuminati.
>
> I think we know of the Thule society here.
>
> > That's what makes all of this hard to deal with; the entire Third
> > Reich cannot be seperated from the occult, its symbolism, its mission,
> > and its plans for ultimate control over the planet.
> > Most people don't even recognize the swastika (Hakenkreuz) for what it
> > symbolizes- the black sun wheel that Thule and Vril worshipped. A dark
> > violet sun with dark powers. Vril is also the shortened version of
> > Vri-il "Like God". At the heart of all this is the worship of pure
> > evil.
>
> Hitler had little interest in this sort of stuff.

Sorry to make you look absolutely stupid but Hitler and the senior
Nazi leadership were Thule members. Hitler believed in the "Hollow
Earth" theory, alien Aryans from Aldebaran, the Black Sun, etc... and
had his own psychics that guided his war-making decisions. You are
completely wrong there. The ultimate goal of Hitler and the Nazis was
to repopulate the earth with Aryan superhumans through eugenics and
rebuild Berlin into some form of Nazi occult mecca. BTW, Hitler DID
seize one occult object in 1938- the Spear of Destiny from Vienna. The
myth was that whomever was at power and possessed the Spear (that
pierced Christ's side) would rule the world. When US troops recovered
the Spear on April 30, 1945 Hitler comitted suicide within the hour.
It was Gen. Patton that restored the Spear to Vienna where it still
resides in a museum.
>
> > Anyway, Base 211 is interesting to speculate on but no one could reach
> > it on land. Only a submarine could get there if the location was
> > known. I wonder if the US or USSR ever tried to find it in the trench?
> > The Germans probably mined the hell out of the area.
>
> You cannot find what does not exist.
>
> Admirable Byrd sent a military task force to find it in 1947 (the first available antarctic summer) and ended up losing men and aircraft, being turned back after mere weeks when provision for fighting had been for 8 months.
> >
> > Rob
> >

Rob

[Erich Adler]

(B2431) wrote in message >...
> >From: (robert arndt)
>
>
> >I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech
> >from 1945.
> >Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
> >would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which
> >contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the
> >Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
> >Now compare that with the shabby US Army soldier with the old M-1 and
> >a Bazooka.
>
> >Rob
>
> And if the war had just lasted 6 months longer you still would have lost and
> have been the target of at least 2 atomic bombs. Get over it, you were defeated
> by Russians, Brits, Americans etc in shabby uniforms, M1s and bolt action
> rifles who would not have been there if you hadn't started the war in the first
> place. All your wonder weapons wouldn't have staved off defeat. Your "leaders"
> would still have suicided. Your country was in ruins politically, morally,
> economically and militarily.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Mr. Dan,

Do you hate Germany?

If it wasn't for the unfair Treaty of Versailles restrictions and
repayments there probably wouldn't have been a war in 1939. Before
that it was everyone with their various alliances and pacts that
marched off to the Great War for glory. Germany, however, gets the
total blame for the war.

Why? Because Germany backed Austria and by military necessity had to
violate Belgium's neutrality to achieve its war aims? As for the
Lusitania incident the Germans were kind enough (in war) to post
notices advising passengers of enemy liners that they risked being
sunk by U-boat in the present war situation. They lost their lives
because they did not heed that posted warning besides the fact the
ship was illegally carrying armaments.

Before that Mr.Dan, Great Britain didn't want a competing superpower
on the high seas. As Imperial Germany and the Kaiser built up his
Great White Fleet the idea of future war with Germany was already
there at the turn of the 20th century.

So stop blaming Germany for the cause of the wars. Many peoples and
nations conspired to march off into battle. Germany gets the full
weight of the blame however since they lost.

I do not make excuses for the Holocaust nor any other German atrocity
but you must look within the context of the other warring powers which
committed similar atrocities against other nations, races, and
cultures for several hundreds of years. In Russia's case, even against
their own peoples.

I've said enough. Please consider what you are saying historically.

Erich Adler

[David E. Powell]

"Eunometic" > wrote in message
om...
> Bernardz > wrote in message
news:<MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news>...
> > In article >,
> > says...
> > > Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> > > Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> > > reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
> > > of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
> > > of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
> > > mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
> >
> > The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war.
>
> The designation V was for "Versuchs" the German word for experimental.
> Most german protduction aircraft had up to 30-100 V series aircraft

This is incorrect. V as it related to the V-1 buzz bomb and V-2 rocket was
for "Vergeileitung" (sp?) which translantes into "Vengeance." Meant to
retaliate for bombing raids on Hamburg, Berlin, etc.

The V-designation was applied to the V-1 cruise missile, the V-2 rocket, and
the V-3 cannon project which was never completed. There were other guided
missiles, bombs, etc. that were developed but they did not have
V-designations. (The missiles used to sink the Italian battleship Roma, for
isntance, or the Wasserfall surface to air missile concept.) Before
recieving the "V-2" designation, Dr. Von Braun's rocket was known as the
A-4.

As for the UFO stuff, it is nonsense. The proponents invariably post some
sort of cock and bull talem then ask people to prove it wrong. The onus of
proof is on them, and they try to avoid that because they have none. I mean,
if I were a German strategic type in 1945 and I had some super-craft, I'd
darn sure want to use it. Maybe against, say, the Russians? I mean they
would have had a lot of motivation there.

DEP

[David E. Powell]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> >
> > Well said. Three cheers for the guy with a brain!
> > I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech
> > from 1945.
> > Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
> > would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which
> > contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the
> > Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
>
> Reliant on horse drawn vehicles for resupply.

Very true - and the US Garand was a good gun. The M3 Grease Gun and Tommy
gun were no slouches for urban fighting. And the M-1 Carbine was a sort of
step towards what we now call an "assault rifle." The British of course had
the Bren, Sten, and Enfield. ISTR the Germans also had G43 rifles, in 7.92
Mauser, but it would have been Volkssturm vs. US Army, British Army units
that had fought since North Africa, and the Red Army that had started the
drive at Stalingrad.

> The most shocking thing for most British soldiers when they closed
> the Falaise gap was to discover that most German army units
> were totally reliant on horse and cart to deliver supplies
> from the railhead. Every British Infantry division had been
> motorised since 1945 and they also realised that while the
> SS might be well supplied with weapons and material
> the average Wermacht soldier had to walk into battle on his
> own two legs, was armed with the 5 shot bolt action
> Karabiner 98k rifle of 1898 vintage and WW1 designed
> hand grenades. The Panzershreck was of course inspired
> by the Bazooka

True. The Allies had taken mechanized resupply to levels Guderian would have
loved. Red Ball express and all. Plus the massive aerial resupply abilities.

> Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked
> the Germans would have been facing large numbers
> of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were
> superior to anything they had and fleets of the new US and
> British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the
> arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no
> other way to go than down.

True, and while Germany's leadership was considering Hitler Youth as pilots
for those jets, US and British pilots with experience equipped with Meteors
and P-80 Shooting Stars (Or Bell P-59s) would have had the edge in
experience. There weren't a lot of guys like Adolf Galland left flying by
the end of the war. I seem to recall that the Luftwaffe never ran out of
planes. Pilots were another matter.

> Keith

[David E. Powell]

"M. Santoro" > wrote in message
om...
> Except, of course, for the fact that the US along with its allies won
> the war.
>
> Then again, the US possessed overwhelming technological superiority in
> Vietnam, and still lost.
>
> So what's your point? Mine is that being "technologically" superior
> doesn't win wars. If war is an extension of politics by other (more
> violent) means (as per Clausewitzl, Lenin and Mao), it's will that
> matters. With that in mind, the lessons of both WWII and Vietnam have
> already been written. The lessons of ongoing conflicts have yet to be
> discerned.
>
> I'd also argue that no nation is superior "in all areas." Certainly
> not when we're talking about a conflict that ended nearly 60 years
> ago, and in favor of the technologically "inferior" side. When
> discussing the merits or deficiencies of US military power, please
> choose a more current subject. There are, after all, plenty more
> current episodes to choose from.
>
> - M.S.

The Allies were not technically inferior. Look at the Russian Stalin Organ,
Soviet T-34 Tank, US B-29 Bomber, Allied High-Test gasoline, Allied Carrier
design and aircraft, the advanced concept of the Sten as far as
manufacturing, and of course the most advanced weapon of the war - the
Atomic Bomb.

The Allies were far from technically inferior.

[B2431]

>From: (robert arndt)
>
>Bernardz >

>> I did not just check combat divisions! I looked at all. I also looked at
>> the units that we have little references and that *may* have existed.
>> Nothing like it. By the way German military records are very good.
>
>Generally so... except for those destroyed on purpose and of course
>those captured by the Allies and compartmentalized by various
>intelligence agencies.

How inconvienient, no way to prove your assertions.

>> > Most people don't even recognize the swastika (Hakenkreuz) for what it
>> > symbolizes- the black sun wheel that Thule and Vril worshipped.

Most people are fully aware the swastika has been used by many people included
American Indians, Africans, the Romans etc.


>> > Anyway, Base 211 is interesting to speculate on but no one could reach
>> > it on land. Only a submarine could get there if the location was
>> > known. I wonder if the US or USSR ever tried to find it in the trench?
>> > The Germans probably mined the hell out of the area.
>>
>> You cannot find what does not exist.
>>

OK, so how was this "base" found in the first place? No submarine commander
would ever deliberately take his boat into an underwater cave so it couldn't be
from looking for it. Did space aliens come to Earth, decide the Nazis really
were the master race and show them where it was?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Aerophotos
>
>
>Gordon your a non believer and thus dont belong here, your time to leave
>the discussion has arrived, goodbye narrow minded american..
>
>German was technology and vastly superior in everything ... even the
>Kevlar PASGT helmet design was copied. Bet you'll find some american
>claim next?
>

You have GOT to be kidding. The technology didn't exist anywhere in the world
during WW2 and the helmet looks nothing like any of the German helmets. I own
German and U.S. examples going back to WW1 and I can place my Kevlar™ helmet
next to any of them and see no resemblence. Did the Nazi pigs even have
Nylon™ ?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: Stephen Harding
>
<snip>
>
>What if one of these research landers make the mistake of drilling
>a test hole through the little guy's head??!!! The first known
>interplanetary war?

The visual of that made me laugh to the point of tears. I needed that. Marvin
the Martian will blow up the Earth for that.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (Ron)
>Date: 2/17/2004 10:46 AM Central

<snip>

>>>Well how come all the secrets of ww2 and since are still locked away
>>>with people not allowed to speak????
>
>Name one..
>
>
>Ron
>Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
>
I'm sure there are quite a few sources-and-methods secrets left.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: (Erich Adler)
>
(B2431) wrote in message
>...
>> >From: (robert arndt)
>>
>>
>> >I'll give you another example comparison between US and German tech
>> >from 1945.
>> >Had the war gone on just until the fall of 1945 the German soldier
>> >would have had: a new M44 stalhelm, M44 Liebermuster camouflage (which
>> >contained carbon and IR defeating dyes), the STG-45 assault rifle, the
>> >Pzf 150 AT weapon, and Nipolit formed disc grenades.
>> >Now compare that with the shabby US Army soldier with the old M-1 and
>> >a Bazooka.
>>
>> >Rob
>>
>> And if the war had just lasted 6 months longer you still would have lost
>and
>> have been the target of at least 2 atomic bombs. Get over it, you were
>defeated
>> by Russians, Brits, Americans etc in shabby uniforms, M1s and bolt action
>> rifles who would not have been there if you hadn't started the war in the
>first
>> place. All your wonder weapons wouldn't have staved off defeat. Your
>"leaders"
>> would still have suicided. Your country was in ruins politically, morally,
>> economically and militarily.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>Mr. Dan,
>
>Do you hate Germany?
>
>If it wasn't for the unfair Treaty of Versailles restrictions and
>repayments there probably wouldn't have been a war in 1939. Before
>that it was everyone with their various alliances and pacts that
>marched off to the Great War for glory. Germany, however, gets the
>total blame for the war.
>
>Why? Because Germany backed Austria and by military necessity had to
>violate Belgium's neutrality to achieve its war aims? As for the
>Lusitania incident the Germans were kind enough (in war) to post
>notices advising passengers of enemy liners that they risked being
>sunk by U-boat in the present war situation. They lost their lives
>because they did not heed that posted warning besides the fact the
>ship was illegally carrying armaments.
>
>Before that Mr.Dan, Great Britain didn't want a competing superpower
>on the high seas. As Imperial Germany and the Kaiser built up his
>Great White Fleet the idea of future war with Germany was already
>there at the turn of the 20th century.
>
>So stop blaming Germany for the cause of the wars. Many peoples and
>nations conspired to march off into battle. Germany gets the full
>weight of the blame however since they lost.
>
>I do not make excuses for the Holocaust nor any other German atrocity
>but you must look within the context of the other warring powers which
>committed similar atrocities against other nations, races, and
>cultures for several hundreds of years. In Russia's case, even against
>their own peoples.
>
>I've said enough. Please consider what you are saying historically.
>
>Erich Adler
>

I don't hate anyone. I have seen too much hate and what it does. I was
responding to teuton who thinks all good things come from the Germans, the SS
were wonderful geniuses etc.

Germany always had the option of not going to war. WW1 did not have to happen.
It was basically allowed to happen. Austrian Count Bercholt did some
manipulating after the assasination of the Archduke. A bunch of people got
upset. Basically everyone mobilized and no one said no.

The Lusitania was sunk in 1915. The U.S. declared war in 1917. There's no
direct link. If Germany had not sent a telegram to Mexico (read up on the
Zimmerman Telegram) asking them if they would join the Germans in declaring war
on the U.S. which they obviously didn't. Obviously the Germans wanted war.

Versailles was very much unfair to the Germans economically, not militarily.
This doesn't excuse the Germans illegally taking parts of Czechoslovakia,
invading Poland, the low countries, France, North Africa, Russia etc nor did it
excuse declaring war on the U.S. 11 December 1941.

I do blame the Germans, Stalin, Chamberlain and anyone else who could have
avoided the war. The fact remains the Germans DID invade Poland 1 September. No
one forced them to do so.

Before both wars started the Germans could have simply said "we will not make
war on our neighbours." How hard is that to comprehend? National pride is a
stupid reason to start a war. The shame is it's been done too many times.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[tim gueguen]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> I'd just like to know how come we don't see anything derived from
> these "crashed UFO's"? Keeping something secret and never actually
> using it sort of defeats the purpose of having it.
>
A number of times I've clashed on Usenet with a fellow named Don Palermo.
He claims that UFOs are actually human designed craft and that the stories
of "Mr. ET" are simply to cover this up. Why don't we see open evidence of
such craft? According to Don "Its classified," as if merely uttering the
phrase explains everything. Apparentl,y the US has spent zillions of
dollars on "conventional" aircraft and so forth to hide the existence of
this technology, which is controlled by some ultrapowerful cabal, and which
apparently no one else has ever managed to stumble across

tim gueguen 101867

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, David
E. Powell > writes
>Very true - and the US Garand was a good gun.

Easy to knock it with hindsight as overpowered and with that niggle of
the eight-round clip feed, but it was a reliable, effective, durable
semi-automatic rifle that led the world at the time.

The MP43/StGw44 was an excellent weapon, but not available in sufficient
quantity: most of the German troops were still using Kar98s.

Don't forget the BAR, which had some quibbles (fixed barrel,
under-mounted magazine) but was a robust attempt at a SAW chambered for
..30-06. The Bren was a better weapon, but the BAR was good.

>The British of course had
>the Bren, Sten, and Enfield.

The Lee-Enfield was adequate (like the Kar98 and 1903 Springfield, it
was a solid reliable bolt-action, distinguished only by a larger
magazine); the Sten was primarily notable for by ease of production and
acceptable reliability: the star performer was the Bren, which was still
in service five decades later. We also had the PIAT, which for all its
eccentricities was able to kill most German tanks that could be enticed
into range.

Sadly, we concentrated on producing what we had and left the innovation
for peacetime: it's a nice thought to imagine EM2s arriving in service
in time for D-Day :)

>ISTR the Germans also had G43 rifles, in 7.92
>Mauser,

Rather demanding weapons, mostly issued to snipers who could give them
the TLC required to keep them working. And German production was
definitely having quality problems by war's end: shortages of everything
was taking its toll, and all manner of kit was having corners cut to
speed manufacture. Not every weapon was happy to be short-circuited
thusly.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Simon Robbins]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...

> I see this is going to be a fantasy piece.... ok.

Yes, and from what I can tell, paraphrased almost entirely from a Harbinson
"Projekt Saucer" book, which of course is FICTION.

Si

[David Windhorst]

Erich Adler wrote:

>snip
>
>>
>>
>
>Mr. Dan,
>
>Do you hate Germany?
>
>If it wasn't for the unfair Treaty of Versailles restrictions and
>repayments there probably wouldn't have been a war in 1939.
>
snip

>
>I've said enough. Please consider what you are saying historically.
>
>Erich Adler
>
>
Okay -- historically, Germany lost WWI, and as such wasn't in much of a
position to dictate treaty terms.

David Windhorst -- German-American who thinks the U.S. should have
stayed home in 1917, but at least understands why things turned out the
way they did.

[Eunometic]

"David E. Powell" > wrote in message >...
> "Eunometic" > wrote in message
> om...
> > Bernardz > wrote in message
> news:<MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news>...
> > > In article >,
> > > says...
> > > > Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> > > > Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> > > > reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued development
> > > > of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the start
> > > > of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted V-7 is
> > > > mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
> > >
> > > The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war.
> >
> > The designation V was for "Versuchs" the German word for experimental.
> > Most german protduction aircraft had up to 30-100 V series aircraft
>
> This is incorrect.

The above sentence is entirely correct. German prototypes always had
a "V" series designation. Any book on German aircraft always lists
this.

> V as it related to the V-1 buzz bomb and V-2 rocket was
> for "Vergeileitung" (sp?) which translantes into "Vengeance." Meant to
> retaliate for bombing raids on Hamburg, Berlin, etc.

The proper designation of the "Buzz Bomb" was Fiesler Fi 103 and that
of the "V2" was A4. Preceding the A4 was an A1,A2,A3.

The term "Vergeileitung" translates more accurately as "Reprisal".

The terms were applied both for their abillity to deceive allied
intelligence (thus the V1 Fi103 could be made to appear as a prototype
Flakzielgaraete" or aerial targed drone and the propaganda value as a
'reprisal' for the saturation bombing of German cities.


>
> The V-designation was applied to the V-1 cruise missile, the V-2 rocket, and
> the V-3 cannon project which was never completed. There were other guided
> missiles, bombs, etc. that were developed but they did not have
> V-designations. (The missiles used to sink the Italian battleship Roma, for
> isntance, or the Wasserfall surface to air missile concept.) Before
> recieving the "V-2" designation, Dr. Von Braun's rocket was known as the
> A-4.

Quite right but as I pointed out the V designation had a duel purpose:
it allowed the Germans to misrepresent their weapons as part of a
series of prototypes in accordance with the Reich Luftfahrt
Ministeriums standards for deisgnation.

Eg Ju 188 V2 meant a derivative of the Ju 88 and the second
experimental protoype (Versuchs 2) thereof. The first series in
production was usually an "A" series aircraft but not always if there
were high altitude pressurised versions or clipped wing versions for
instance.


>
> As for the UFO stuff, it is nonsense. The proponents invariably post some
> sort of cock and bull talem then ask people to prove it wrong. The onus of
> proof is on them, and they try to avoid that because they have none. I mean,
> if I were a German strategic type in 1945 and I had some super-craft, I'd
> darn sure want to use it. Maybe against, say, the Russians? I mean they
> would have had a lot of motivation there.

The Philidelphia Experiment also existed as an allied equivalent.

There do appear to have been "foo fighters" or reports filed by allied
aircrew of them that might be traced.

These may have been atmopheric phenomena, they may have been some
unusual lifting body aircraft probably a prototype with some kind of
pulse/ramjet system with lots of external flame that was being used as
some type of contact aircraft.

An aircraft with a speed of 600mph would have looked miraculouse at
the time. I don't discount that possiblity. I do discount the ideas
of exotic energies and propulsions systems based on Vril or some such
nonsense.



>
> DEP

[William Donzelli]

"The Enlightenment" > wrote in message >...

> There truely were some unnecesary stuff up that could have been
> avoided if the leadership understood how technology progesses. The
> fact that all German radars shared a single frequency...

All German radars did not share a single frequency - far from it,
actually*. Their radars were far more frequency agile than Allied
radars, although not like the "frequency agile" that we know today.
Most could be retuned fairly easily, being rather simple, elegant
designs. Most allied radars could not without a massive headache (as
in hours of unstable operation, getting all the bugs out). Allied
microwave radars could not change frequency at all, unless the
magnetron was actually replaced. The "first" (I think) tuneable
microwave radar the Allies had was the X band SCR-584.

On a side note, both the Allies and the Axis both tried to keep their
radars confined to various bands. There is a good reason for this -
interference. The airwaves were horribly overcrowded, even up in the
VHF area where air search radars live. Spreading your radars all over
the place on the band is actually troublesome.

*Freyas were found everywhere between 90 and 190 MHz. Wurzburgs were
found from 470 to 590 MHz. Source: TME 11-219 "Directory of German
Radar Equipment".

> and the secrecy
> sourounding the effectiveness soruning 'duppel' or the German version
> of Window which had so much secrecy placed upon it proper
> countermeasures could not be developed.

For 1940s technology, Window was almost impossible to defeat. The
Germans, however, did a pretty good job with their Window ECCM
(anti-jam). Allied radars had AJ features as well, but not quite as
advanced (it was rarely used).

William Donzelli

[B2431]

>From: "tim gueguen"

>
>"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
>> I'd just like to know how come we don't see anything derived from
>> these "crashed UFO's"? Keeping something secret and never actually
>> using it sort of defeats the purpose of having it.
>>
>A number of times I've clashed on Usenet with a fellow named Don Palermo.
>He claims that UFOs are actually human designed craft and that the stories
>of "Mr. ET" are simply to cover this up. Why don't we see open evidence of
>such craft? According to Don "Its classified," as if merely uttering the
>phrase explains everything. Apparentl,y the US has spent zillions of
>dollars on "conventional" aircraft and so forth to hide the existence of
>this technology, which is controlled by some ultrapowerful cabal, and which
>apparently no one else has ever managed to stumble across
>
>tim gueguen 101867
>

Has Palermo ever explained WHY this cabal would expend so much effort? It seems
to me to be counter productive.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
"David E. Powell" > wrote:

> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "robert arndt" > wrote in message
> > om...
>
> > Had they managed to survive into 1945 without being Nuked
> > the Germans would have been facing large numbers
> > of M-26 and Centurion battle tanks which were
> > superior to anything they had and fleets of the new US and
> > British jet fighters. Germany was on the wrong side of the
> > arms production curve from 1942 onwards. There was no
> > other way to go than down.
>
> True, and while Germany's leadership was considering Hitler Youth as pilots
> for those jets, US and British pilots with experience equipped with Meteors
> and P-80 Shooting Stars (Or Bell P-59s)

Not P-59s. By the time the P-80 flew, the P-59 was relegated to training.
It wasn't even competitive against late model prop fighters.

> would have had the edge in
> experience. There weren't a lot of guys like Adolf Galland left flying by
> the end of the war. I seem to recall that the Luftwaffe never ran out of
> planes. Pilots were another matter.

[Stephen Harding]

tim gueguen wrote:
> "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I'd just like to know how come we don't see anything derived from
>>these "crashed UFO's"? Keeping something secret and never actually
>>using it sort of defeats the purpose of having it.
>>
>
> A number of times I've clashed on Usenet with a fellow named Don Palermo.
> He claims that UFOs are actually human designed craft and that the stories
> of "Mr. ET" are simply to cover this up. Why don't we see open evidence of
> such craft? According to Don "Its classified," as if merely uttering the
> phrase explains everything. Apparentl,y the US has spent zillions of
> dollars on "conventional" aircraft and so forth to hide the existence of
> this technology, which is controlled by some ultrapowerful cabal, and which
> apparently no one else has ever managed to stumble across

If we assume it is the military that is masking the existence
of super capable aircraft via "UFO's", will these aircraft
ever get put to uses beyond mere test flights?

Haven't come across stories from Kosovo or Iraq [yet] claiming
"a formation of UFO's" attacked some target.

Looks like the price of having super capable, advanced aircraft
representing a non-linear leap in technology, is to spend a lot
of money over a very long period of time, hiding their
existence, and never actually putting them to tactical or
strategic use!

Super high tech can be extremely limiting!


SMH

[walt moffett]

On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 22:27:09 +0000,
phil hunt > wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Feb 2004 09:55:58 -0600, t_mark > wrote:
>>
>>Point being, as a person of no particular faith living in the U.S. I see the
>>'religion' here for what it is, and it's a far, far sight from the beliefs
>>of many foreigners who hear that most Americans believe in some sort of god
>>and summarily decide there's some sort of theocracy over here.
>
> While the USA clearly isn't a theocracy, religion is clearly
> influential enough that states from time to time take evolution off
> their school curricula.
>

yep, democrary can lead to the vox populi, oy vey moment.

[tim gueguen]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "tim gueguen"
>
> >A number of times I've clashed on Usenet with a fellow named Don Palermo.
> >He claims that UFOs are actually human designed craft and that the
stories
> >of "Mr. ET" are simply to cover this up. Why don't we see open evidence
of
> >such craft? According to Don "Its classified," as if merely uttering the
> >phrase explains everything. Apparentl,y the US has spent zillions of
> >dollars on "conventional" aircraft and so forth to hide the existence of
> >this technology, which is controlled by some ultrapowerful cabal, and
which
> >apparently no one else has ever managed to stumble across
> >
> >tim gueguen 101867
> >
>
> Has Palermo ever explained WHY this cabal would expend so much effort? It
seems
> to me to be counter productive.
>
He has a number of, to me, and others, less than convincing rationalisations
about how it would supposedly do economic harm to people displaced by the
new technologies and so forth. He also, like other conspiracy theorists,
has an amazing faith in the ability of security services or whoever to keep
control of the information involved. After all, you'd think someone would
have gotten their hands on this supertech thru espionage at some point and
used it in such a way that would be publically obvious.

tim gueguen 101867

[David E. Powell]

"Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
...
> In message >, David
> E. Powell > writes
> >Very true - and the US Garand was a good gun.
>
> Easy to knock it with hindsight as overpowered and with that niggle of
> the eight-round clip feed, but it was a reliable, effective, durable
> semi-automatic rifle that led the world at the time.

Yes. And the fact that the M-14/M-21, which the USMC is reissuing to
riflemen, had a lot of M-1 heritage says something, too. My dad used to talk
about the M-1 with affection, but said the only thing to watch for was
smacking one's thumb with the bolt while loading the thing.

> The MP43/StGw44 was an excellent weapon, but not available in sufficient
> quantity: most of the German troops were still using Kar98s.
>
> Don't forget the BAR, which had some quibbles (fixed barrel,
> under-mounted magazine) but was a robust attempt at a SAW chambered for
> .30-06. The Bren was a better weapon, but the BAR was good.

How could you see with that magazine on top? ;+)

> >The British of course had
> >the Bren, Sten, and Enfield.
>
> The Lee-Enfield was adequate (like the Kar98 and 1903 Springfield, it
> was a solid reliable bolt-action, distinguished only by a larger
> magazine); the Sten was primarily notable for by ease of production and
> acceptable reliability: the star performer was the Bren, which was still
> in service five decades later. We also had the PIAT, which for all its
> eccentricities was able to kill most German tanks that could be enticed
> into range.

No argument there, though whoever went after tanks with PIATs gets much
respect in my book.

> Sadly, we concentrated on producing what we had and left the innovation
> for peacetime: it's a nice thought to imagine EM2s arriving in service
> in time for D-Day :)

Oh yes. Or L1A1s.

> >ISTR the Germans also had G43 rifles, in 7.92
> >Mauser,
>
> Rather demanding weapons, mostly issued to snipers who could give them
> the TLC required to keep them working. And German production was
> definitely having quality problems by war's end: shortages of everything
> was taking its toll, and all manner of kit was having corners cut to
> speed manufacture. Not every weapon was happy to be short-circuited
> thusly.

One thing disturbing to me about late production German weaponry coming on
the collectors' market now, especially Mauser rifles made in Yugolsavia, was
who they had making them. Not exactly something I'd like to think about in a
piece.

> --
> When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
> W S Churchill
>
> Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[David E. Powell]

"Eunometic" > wrote in message
om...
> "David E. Powell" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Eunometic" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > Bernardz > wrote in message
> > news:<MPG.1a9b8d33930402ad9898f6@news>...
> > > > In article >,
> > > > says...
> > > > > Some say the technology came from an alien UFO that crashed near
> > > > > Freiberg in 1936 and was taken to Himmler's castle at Wewelsberg,
> > > > > reverse engineered. Nevertheless, Thule and Vril continued
development
> > > > > of these RFZ (RundFlugZeug) with models 1-6 up to 1939. By the
start
> > > > > of the war Vril had their own designs of which the often-quoted
V-7 is
> > > > > mentioned. This is a mislabel as it is not part of the
> > > >
> > > > The designation V-1, V-2 etc was not used till late in the war.
> > >
> > > The designation V was for "Versuchs" the German word for experimental.
> > > Most german protduction aircraft had up to 30-100 V series aircraft
> >
> > This is incorrect.
>
> The above sentence is entirely correct. German prototypes always had
> a "V" series designation. Any book on German aircraft always lists
> this.

OK. I was confusing the use of the word in the areas of "psychological
warfare" vs. experimentalism.

> > V as it related to the V-1 buzz bomb and V-2 rocket was
> > for "Vergeileitung" (sp?) which translantes into "Vengeance." Meant to
> > retaliate for bombing raids on Hamburg, Berlin, etc.
>
> The proper designation of the "Buzz Bomb" was Fiesler Fi 103 and that
> of the "V2" was A4. Preceding the A4 was an A1,A2,A3.

Nod.

> The term "Vergeileitung" translates more accurately as "Reprisal".

Thank you.

> The terms were applied both for their abillity to deceive allied
> intelligence (thus the V1 Fi103 could be made to appear as a prototype
> Flakzielgaraete" or aerial targed drone and the propaganda value as a
> 'reprisal' for the saturation bombing of German cities.
>
> >
> > The V-designation was applied to the V-1 cruise missile, the V-2 rocket,
and
> > the V-3 cannon project which was never completed. There were other
guided
> > missiles, bombs, etc. that were developed but they did not have
> > V-designations. (The missiles used to sink the Italian battleship Roma,
for
> > isntance, or the Wasserfall surface to air missile concept.) Before
> > recieving the "V-2" designation, Dr. Von Braun's rocket was known as the
> > A-4.
>
> Quite right but as I pointed out the V designation had a duel purpose:
> it allowed the Germans to misrepresent their weapons as part of a
> series of prototypes in accordance with the Reich Luftfahrt
> Ministeriums standards for deisgnation.

OK. Thanks for clearing this up.

> Eg Ju 188 V2 meant a derivative of the Ju 88 and the second
> experimental protoype (Versuchs 2) thereof. The first series in
> production was usually an "A" series aircraft but not always if there
> were high altitude pressurised versions or clipped wing versions for
> instance.

OK

> > As for the UFO stuff, it is nonsense. The proponents invariably post
some
> > sort of cock and bull talem then ask people to prove it wrong. The onus
of
> > proof is on them, and they try to avoid that because they have none. I
mean,
> > if I were a German strategic type in 1945 and I had some super-craft,
I'd
> > darn sure want to use it. Maybe against, say, the Russians? I mean they
> > would have had a lot of motivation there.
>
> The Philidelphia Experiment also existed as an allied equivalent.

From all the rumors/stuff I heave heard about it, they alleged that it
happened but failed badly. I can't vouch for those stories having credence.
But if they had tried it once, one thinks the tech would have been worked
with since. No real evidence that this is the case, though. The fact that
crew and records of the ship mentioned deny it up and down comes to mind
also. It seems another "urban legend." Though it was an OK movie.

> There do appear to have been "foo fighters" or reports filed by allied
> aircrew of them that might be traced.
>
> These may have been atmopheric phenomena, they may have been some
> unusual lifting body aircraft probably a prototype with some kind of
> pulse/ramjet system with lots of external flame that was being used as
> some type of contact aircraft.

Or some guy might have been pulling a lot of hours in complete darkness with
only cockpit panel lights, and a radar screen, and gotten a little crossed
on something. Or seen a shooting star or something. There are probably a
hundred logical possibilities, and in the absence of proof that there were
some wierd UFOs or Mach 1+ superfighters flying around in the mid 1940s,
they are the more likely explanations for this stuff.

> An aircraft with a speed of 600mph would have looked miraculouse at
> the time. I don't discount that possiblity.

Yeah, but if there was one, you think some pilot would have been jumping up
and down after all the fame Chuck Yeager got years later. Or the Astronauts
for that matter. Plus if the US captured a bunch, wouldn't they have sent
some to Korea or something in the 50s? Just some questions....

Not to mention that if the Germans had any plane they could get flying, they
sent it up in 1944/45. The Heinkel Salamander comes to mind, so does the
Messerschmitt Komet.

I do discount the ideas
> of exotic energies and propulsions systems based on Vril or some such
> nonsense.

I think we can safely agree there!

> > DEP

[Kevin Brooks]

"David E. Powell" > wrote in message
s.com...
> "Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In message >, David
> > E. Powell > writes
> > >Very true - and the US Garand was a good gun.
> >
> > Easy to knock it with hindsight as overpowered and with that niggle of
> > the eight-round clip feed, but it was a reliable, effective, durable
> > semi-automatic rifle that led the world at the time.
>
> Yes. And the fact that the M-14/M-21, which the USMC is reissuing to
> riflemen, had a lot of M-1 heritage says something, too.

They are? Why? The USMC (and the Army) snipers have moved beyond the M-21;
as to riflemen, can't see where the M16A2 is not sufficient (and if you want
to make it more effective in that 300 meter category, field an telescopic
sight for it). I can't see where the M-21 offers much to the rifleman in a
squad that the M16A2 can't deliver (past claims of the 5.56mm not packing
enough wallop being discounted as less than entirely credible).

Brooks

<snip>

[ANDREW ROBERT BREEN]

In article >,
David E. Powell > wrote:
>>
>> These may have been atmopheric phenomena, they may have been some
>> unusual lifting body aircraft probably a prototype with some kind of
>> pulse/ramjet system with lots of external flame that was being used as
>> some type of contact aircraft.
>
>Or some guy might have been pulling a lot of hours in complete darkness with
>only cockpit panel lights, and a radar screen, and gotten a little crossed
>on something. Or seen a shooting star or something. There are probably a
>hundred logical possibilities, and in the absence of proof that there were
>some wierd UFOs or Mach 1+ superfighters flying around in the mid 1940s,
>they are the more likely explanations for this stuff.

There is a well-documented case of a pilot flying from Malta in (IIRC)
1942 who reported encountering a very agile, high-performance aeroplane
of a type he did not recognise. Or that's what he thought it
was. Eventually it dawned on him that it was a fly on the inside of the
cockpit. This may have happened more than once, and not every pilot
may have realised that it was but a fly.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

[Tosser]

"David E. Powell" > wrote in message
s.com...


> > The Bren was a better weapon


> How could you see with that magazine on top? ;+)

Take it off and balance it on the offset sights.

<GRIN>

[David E. Powell]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "David E. Powell" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> > "Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > In message >, David
> > > E. Powell > writes
> > > >Very true - and the US Garand was a good gun.
> > >
> > > Easy to knock it with hindsight as overpowered and with that niggle of
> > > the eight-round clip feed, but it was a reliable, effective, durable
> > > semi-automatic rifle that led the world at the time.
> >
> > Yes. And the fact that the M-14/M-21, which the USMC is reissuing to
> > riflemen, had a lot of M-1 heritage says something, too.
>
> They are? Why? The USMC (and the Army) snipers have moved beyond the M-21;
> as to riflemen, can't see where the M16A2 is not sufficient (and if you
want
> to make it more effective in that 300 meter category, field an telescopic
> sight for it).

It is called the USMC Designated Rifleman or Designated Marksman program,
IIRC. It issues M-14s (scoped I think) to some volunteers/highly skilled
shooters. To take on targets needing precision during small engagements to
compliment unit fire and designated scout/sniper teams. There was news about
it a while back.

I can't see where the M-21 offers much to the rifleman in a
> squad that the M16A2 can't deliver (past claims of the 5.56mm not packing
> enough wallop being discounted as less than entirely credible).

I have heard those claims regarding the 5.56 put around lately, too, but who
knows? I'm just going on what I have heard, and the M-14/M-21 are certainly
fine rifles at average and above average combat ranges.

> Brooks
>
> <snip>
>
>

[Kevin Brooks]

"David E. Powell" > wrote in message
s.com...
> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "David E. Powell" > wrote in message
> > s.com...
> > > "Paul J. Adam" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > In message >,
David
> > > > E. Powell > writes
> > > > >Very true - and the US Garand was a good gun.
> > > >
> > > > Easy to knock it with hindsight as overpowered and with that niggle
of
> > > > the eight-round clip feed, but it was a reliable, effective, durable
> > > > semi-automatic rifle that led the world at the time.
> > >
> > > Yes. And the fact that the M-14/M-21, which the USMC is reissuing to
> > > riflemen, had a lot of M-1 heritage says something, too.
> >
> > They are? Why? The USMC (and the Army) snipers have moved beyond the
M-21;
> > as to riflemen, can't see where the M16A2 is not sufficient (and if you
> want
> > to make it more effective in that 300 meter category, field an
telescopic
> > sight for it).
>
> It is called the USMC Designated Rifleman or Designated Marksman program,
> IIRC. It issues M-14s (scoped I think) to some volunteers/highly skilled
> shooters. To take on targets needing precision during small engagements to
> compliment unit fire and designated scout/sniper teams. There was news
about
> it a while back.

OK. To an army puke, the term "rifleman" is indicative of the personnel who,
along with a SAW gunner and a designated grenadier, make up the standard
infantry squad. IIRC the Army has also been talking about increasing the
number of snipers in its units--down to the company level, in addition to
the current battalion level scout/snipers. But to be honest, fr the role you
are describing, and if you are still talking about engagements in the 300+
meter range and below, I can't see where they are going to gain a lot from
going to the M21 versus just issuing telescopic sights for the M16A2, which
is plenty lethal and accurate out beyond even that range.

>
> I can't see where the M-21 offers much to the rifleman in a
> > squad that the M16A2 can't deliver (past claims of the 5.56mm not
packing
> > enough wallop being discounted as less than entirely credible).
>
> I have heard those claims regarding the 5.56 put around lately, too, but
who
> knows? I'm just going on what I have heard, and the M-14/M-21 are
certainly
> fine rifles at average and above average combat ranges.

They are plenty accurate in the hands of a decent shooter, and the 7.62mm
gives you a longer lethal range. But if the objective is to have godd
designated marksmen at the platoon or thereabouts level, I still can't see
where the M16A2 is deficient. When you start looking at the ranges where the
7.62mm pays real dividends (those 500-600 meter shots), you probably really
need a fair amount of specialty training to developa relaible shooter, and
he is going to have to practice regularly. Having lugged the M14 a few
miles, and having fired it a few times, I can vouch that the weight is not
as attractive as it is for the M16 series (not a decisive factor, but it
does impact upon the equation). Ammunition basic load will be lower (but if
the guy is supposed to be delivering one-shot/one-kill results, no biggie).
Of course they are apparently still available in the thousands, stored over
the past decades for God knows what reason... :)

Brooks

>
> > Brooks
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> >
>
>

[Harry Andreas]

In article >, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

> Of course they are apparently still available in the thousands, stored over
> the past decades for God knows what reason... :)
>
I noticed in the news the other night quite a lot of the Haitian rebels armed
with M-14s. Or maybe they were militia, whatever, but they were carrying
the M-14.
How many have been given away?

--
Harry Andreas
Engineering raconteur

[Kevin Brooks]

"Harry Andreas" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> > Of course they are apparently still available in the thousands, stored
over
> > the past decades for God knows what reason... :)
> >
> I noticed in the news the other night quite a lot of the Haitian rebels
armed
> with M-14s. Or maybe they were militia, whatever, but they were carrying
> the M-14.
> How many have been given away?

I am sure oodles of them were provided under the aegis of MAP. Just like we
did with the earlier M-1 (a couple of years back it was very easy to find
former ROK M-1's for sale here in the states).

Brooks

>
> --
> Harry Andreas
> Engineering raconteur

[Peter Kemp]

On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:12:08 GMT, "David E. Powell"
> wrote:

>It is called the USMC Designated Rifleman or Designated Marksman program,
>IIRC. It issues M-14s (scoped I think) to some volunteers/highly skilled
>shooters. To take on targets needing precision during small engagements to
>compliment unit fire and designated scout/sniper teams. There was news about
>it a while back.

IT's not being issued to infantry units per se, and last I heard the
DMR wasn't being issued to the sniper scout pairs eitehr (thought this
may still be on the cards). The only deployments I've heard of have
been to EOD teams spending their days plinking all the submunitions
scattered by 30 years of war around Afghanistan (and presumably Iraq
too though I've not heard confirmation). It's supposed to be good out
to about 700m.

Peter Kemp

[Kevin Brooks]

"Peter Kemp" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 02:12:08 GMT, "David E. Powell"
> > wrote:
>
> >It is called the USMC Designated Rifleman or Designated Marksman program,
> >IIRC. It issues M-14s (scoped I think) to some volunteers/highly skilled
> >shooters. To take on targets needing precision during small engagements
to
> >compliment unit fire and designated scout/sniper teams. There was news
about
> >it a while back.
>
> IT's not being issued to infantry units per se, and last I heard the
> DMR wasn't being issued to the sniper scout pairs eitehr (thought this
> may still be on the cards). The only deployments I've heard of have
> been to EOD teams spending their days plinking all the submunitions
> scattered by 30 years of war around Afghanistan (and presumably Iraq
> too though I've not heard confirmation). It's supposed to be good out
> to about 700m.

One has to wonder what the advantage of the M14/M21 in such a role over the
M16A2 would be. If the target is an itty-bitty DPICM bomblet, that 700 meter
range is worthless--think more in terms of 100 meters, which means that the
M16A2 is plenty accurate and has more than enough ebergy to do the job.

Brooks

>
> Peter Kemp