2 Questions: P-38L Rear Radar/"Phantom P-38"

[Stephen Harding]

Couple questions on P-38 lore:

Came across a reference to installation of a tail radar
on the P-38L from http://p-38online.com/p38l.html.

<quote>
One interesting improvement was the installation of a new
tail-warning radar system. It would signal the pilot through
flashing lights and bell sounds when an aircraft was in
close proximity behind the aircraft.
</quote>

First I've heard of this for any operational model fighter
aircraft of WWII.

Was this an actual feature for the L model or an "option"
or just planning that never came to fruition?

Also a question regarding the so called "Phantom P-38" of
the Italian campaign (http://p-38online.com/phantom.html).

This is the story of a P-38 captured by the Italians and
used against bomber stragglers. I've heard it before and
believe it to be true, but this page provides a lot of
detail on the subject I've never encountered before.

The story describes the efforts of a bomber pilot shot
down by the Italian and his efforts at vengeance. This is
a story fit for Hollywood!

I liked the part about Lt Fisher, the bomber pilot visiting
the wife of Rossi, the Italian P-38 driver, and using the
visit as a means of infuriating Rossi into an attack.

Lt Fisher allegedly died in a crash during the Berlin
Airlift, and Rossi was a mourner at the funeral!

Anyone know if it's actually true, or more simple fact
that has been greatly embellished?

If you're a P-38 fan, this is a rather nice site.


SMH

[Keith Willshaw]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Couple questions on P-38 lore:
>
> Came across a reference to installation of a tail radar
> on the P-38L from http://p-38online.com/p38l.html.
>
> <quote>
> One interesting improvement was the installation of a new
> tail-warning radar system. It would signal the pilot through
> flashing lights and bell sounds when an aircraft was in
> close proximity behind the aircraft.
> </quote>
>
> First I've heard of this for any operational model fighter
> aircraft of WWII.
>
> Was this an actual feature for the L model or an "option"
> or just planning that never came to fruition?
>

Tail warning radars were extensively fitted in late ww2
The AN/APS-13 was made for fighters. This was a
low-power pulse radar set, operating that flashed a
red light and rang a bell when an enemy
aircraft was approaching from the rear.

They were fitted to later model P-51D's , P-38L's,
P-47D's and P-61's

Keith

[Stephen Harding]

Keith Willshaw wrote:

> Tail warning radars were extensively fitted in late ww2
> The AN/APS-13 was made for fighters. This was a
> low-power pulse radar set, operating that flashed a
> red light and rang a bell when an enemy
> aircraft was approaching from the rear.
>
> They were fitted to later model P-51D's , P-38L's,
> P-47D's and P-61's

Never heard of this for all these aircraft. Never even
heard of it for aircraft during the Korean War.

Did it actually work?


SMH

[Keith Willshaw]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
> > Tail warning radars were extensively fitted in late ww2
> > The AN/APS-13 was made for fighters. This was a
> > low-power pulse radar set, operating that flashed a
> > red light and rang a bell when an enemy
> > aircraft was approaching from the rear.
> >
> > They were fitted to later model P-51D's , P-38L's,
> > P-47D's and P-61's
>
> Never heard of this for all these aircraft. Never even
> heard of it for aircraft during the Korean War.
>
> Did it actually work?
>

Apparently it did.

Keith

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
"Keith Willshaw" > writes:
>
> "Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Keith Willshaw wrote:
>>
>> > Tail warning radars were extensively fitted in late ww2
>> > The AN/APS-13 was made for fighters. This was a
>> > low-power pulse radar set, operating that flashed a
>> > red light and rang a bell when an enemy
>> > aircraft was approaching from the rear.
>> >
>> > They were fitted to later model P-51D's , P-38L's,
>> > P-47D's and P-61's
>>
>> Never heard of this for all these aircraft. Never even
>> heard of it for aircraft during the Korean War.
>>
>> Did it actually work?
>>
>
> Apparently it did.

A bit too well, in fact. The radar didn't scan or sweep - it just
tansmitted and received a fan-shaped beam behind the airplane. It
rang its alarm whenever _anything_ entered that fan. The ground,
birds, you own wingman... people were going nuts reacting to the high
rate of false alarms, so most systems were deactivated or removed.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[John Keeney]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> Keith Willshaw wrote:
>
> > Tail warning radars were extensively fitted in late ww2
> > The AN/APS-13 was made for fighters. This was a
> > low-power pulse radar set, operating that flashed a
> > red light and rang a bell when an enemy
> > aircraft was approaching from the rear.
> >
> > They were fitted to later model P-51D's , P-38L's,
> > P-47D's and P-61's
>
> Never heard of this for all these aircraft. Never even
> heard of it for aircraft during the Korean War.
>
> Did it actually work?

I've heard of it on the P-38.
I've not gotten any first hand reports but the impression
I've gotten is that it wasn't particularly liked: seems some
inconsiderate wingman would be all the timing passing
behind the poor pilot and setting off the warning which
would tend to, ahmm, *distract* the lead pilot.
Again, this is nothing resembling a first hand report and
may well represent a humorous adaptation of the facts.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,

>
> A bit too well, in fact. The radar didn't scan or sweep - it just
> tansmitted and received a fan-shaped beam behind the airplane. It
> rang its alarm whenever _anything_ entered that fan. The ground,
> birds, you own wingman... people were going nuts reacting to the high
> rate of false alarms, so most systems were deactivated or removed.
>

It was rather more useful on night fighters and bombers I imagine
since they typically operated alone, although the Germans did
manufacture a passive receiver to home in on RAF tail
warning radars IRC

Keith

[Guy Alcala]

Keith Willshaw wrote:

> "Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
>
> >
> > A bit too well, in fact. The radar didn't scan or sweep - it just
> > tansmitted and received a fan-shaped beam behind the airplane. It
> > rang its alarm whenever _anything_ entered that fan. The ground,
> > birds, you own wingman... people were going nuts reacting to the high
> > rate of false alarms, so most systems were deactivated or removed.
> >
>
> It was rather more useful on night fighters and bombers I imagine
> since they typically operated alone, although the Germans did
> manufacture a passive receiver to home in on RAF tail
> warning radars IRC

"Flensburg." In addition to the beaconing problem, ISTR that RAF bomber
pilots disliked Monica just as much as the U.S. fighter pilots disliked
APS-13, and for the same reason, constant false alarms. Aftert all, there
you are cruising along in the bomber stream with the damned thing going off
every few minutes, if not constantly.

Guy

[The Enlightenment]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Peter Stickney" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >,
>
> >
> > A bit too well, in fact. The radar didn't scan or sweep - it just
> > tansmitted and received a fan-shaped beam behind the airplane. It
> > rang its alarm whenever _anything_ entered that fan. The ground,
> > birds, you own wingman... people were going nuts reacting to the
high
> > rate of false alarms, so most systems were deactivated or removed.
> >
>
> It was rather more useful on night fighters and bombers I imagine
> since they typically operated alone, although the Germans did
> manufacture a passive receiver to home in on RAF tail
> warning radars IRC


Tail warning radars substantialy reduced the looses of German night
fighter crews though only the elite crews were given it.

The German Radars with an "R" designation had tail warning radar
extensions of the main radar. Thus the FuG 218 SN-2R had one as well
as slightly broader frequencies to improve jame resistance marginally
and also the Naxos ZR or FuG 217 which was liked by the crewas
becuase it was quite resistent to jaming and windows.

Often the best warning of an Mosquito was a clicking in the FuG 16
radio, presumably due to the radar pulses of the powefull magnetron.





>
> Keith
>
>