More on Powell and the guard

[ArtKramr]

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to
wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin Powell, My
American Journey, 1995


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Brian]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed
managed to
> wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin
Powell, My
> American Journey, 1995

Bush served in the Military and was discharged honorably...get over it. He
could have chosen not to serve at all and gone off to Oxford.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
>From: "Brian"
>Date: 2/21/04 4:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed
>managed to
>> wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin
>Powell, My
>> American Journey, 1995
>
>Bush served in the Military and was discharged honorably...get over it. He
>could have chosen not to serve at all and gone off to Oxford.
>
>

Sorry. Old man Bush had no influence to get his dumb kid into a school like
Oxford. He could only wheedle Yale and Harvard to let the" c" student in. But
if young Bush didn't have a powerful rich father he never would have gotten
into either school nor the National Guard for that matter.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Al Dykes]

In article >,
R. David Steele > wrote:
>
>|>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed
>|>managed to
>|>> wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin
>|>Powell, My
>|>> American Journey, 1995
>|>
>|>Bush served in the Military and was discharged honorably...get over it. He
>|>could have chosen not to serve at all and gone off to Oxford.
>|>
>|>
>|
>|Sorry. Old man Bush had no influence to get his dumb kid into a school like
>|Oxford. He could only wheedle Yale and Harvard to let the" c" student in. But
>|if young Bush didn't have a powerful rich father he never would have gotten
>|into either school nor the National Guard for that matter.
>
>The Bush family does not even begin to have the wealth that
>Senator Edwards (D-NC) has (over $50 million). And Sen. Kerry
>(D-MA) has ten times that ($500 million).
>

I can't speak to Edwards or Kerry but it seems that the Bush
family's money has very deeep roots that mean at least amount
as the bank bank balance; See

American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of
Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin Phillips


>At that time, Texas was ran by LBJ and his buddies. Not a
>friendly place for republicans.
>
>The main reason the GWB was able to get in was that he signed up
>to fly the F-102 and take two years of active duty. There were
>over 35 slots open in that unit due to the active duty
>requirements.
>
>If you want to vent your hate, vent at our fellow democrats who
>created that system to protect their buddies. If you have
>forgotten the '60s, that was an era when the democrats in
>congress created high tax rates then had all sorts of loop holes
>for their buddies.
>


--
Al Dykes
-----------

[George Z. Bush]

"R. David Steele" > wrote in message
...
>
> |>|>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed
> |>|>managed to
> |>|>> wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin
> |>|>Powell, My
> |>|>> American Journey, 1995
> |>|>
> |>|>Bush served in the Military and was discharged honorably...get over it. He
> |>|>could have chosen not to serve at all and gone off to Oxford.
> |>|>
> |>|>
> |>|
> |>|Sorry. Old man Bush had no influence to get his dumb kid into a school like
> |>|Oxford. He could only wheedle Yale and Harvard to let the" c" student in.
But
> |>|if young Bush didn't have a powerful rich father he never would have
gotten
> |>|into either school nor the National Guard for that matter.
> |>
> |>The Bush family does not even begin to have the wealth that
> |>Senator Edwards (D-NC) has (over $50 million). And Sen. Kerry
> |>(D-MA) has ten times that ($500 million).
> |>
> |
> |I can't speak to Edwards or Kerry but it seems that the Bush
> |family's money has very deeep roots that mean at least amount
> |as the bank bank balance; See
> |
> |American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of
> | Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin Phillips
>
> Kerry is very old money, as he is a Bonesman like Bush. And far
> more wealth. The Bush family is not all that well to do, in
> comparison. Most of the big money these days is in the democrat
> party. Even the Ford family (Ford motors, Ford foundation) and
> Carnegie family (US Steel) have been bankrolling many of the far
> left's operations for years. Most of the money in these old
> families is tied up in foundations so that they do not pay the
> estate tax.
>
> Add Warren Buffet, George Soros, Bill Gates and 9 out of the top
> 11 wealthiest senators in congress.

Right. I guess that explains why Bush can raise gobs more money for his
reelection campaign than all nine of his original Democratic wannabee nominees
put together.

George Z.

[Stephen Harding]

George Z. Bush wrote:

> Right. I guess that explains why Bush can raise gobs more money for his
> reelection campaign than all nine of his original Democratic wannabee nominees
> put together.

This is the claim with most every Presidential election.

The last record campaign money raising award was held by
Bill Clinton.

"Power of the incumbency" and all that.


SMH

[Cub Driver]

>Most of their donations are
>under $300 which keeps the averages low.

And only donations under (I believe it is) $250 count for federal
match funds. Both Bush and Kerry will take the match for the fall
campaign.

But you're omitting "soft money". The Democrats may have the edge on
that, what with their affinity for billionaires like George Soros, not
to mention what Edwards calls "the A F of L". (How old is he anyway?
It hasn't been called that since 1950 or so, since it merged with the
CIO.)


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[George Z. Bush]

R. David Steele wrote:
>>>>> The Bush family does not even begin to have the wealth that
>>>>> Senator Edwards (D-NC) has (over $50 million). And Sen. Kerry
>>>>> (D-MA) has ten times that ($500 million).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I can't speak to Edwards or Kerry but it seems that the Bush
>>>> family's money has very deeep roots that mean at least amount
>>>> as the bank bank balance; See
>>>>
>>>> American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of
>>>> Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin Phillips
>>>
>>> Kerry is very old money, as he is a Bonesman like Bush.

Kerry may be a member of Skull and Bones, as is Bush, but he's miles from old
money. His grandfather was a Czech Jew named Fritz Kohn, who changed his name
to Frederick Kerry in 1902 while a Czech citizen, and emigrated to the US three
years later as Frederick Kerry. He committed suicide in 1921 apparently for
financial reasons, which suggests that there was no family money back then.
Kerry's father was in the Foreign Service, which is not known for providing its
employees with excessive salaries. So, old money? It hardly seems likely. If,
as he himself says, he always considered himself comfortably well off while he
was growing up, that probably would have been a testimonial to the frugality
with which his parents managed their accumulated resources rather than inherited
wealth, as most old money is usually acquired.

George Z.

[Stephen Harding]

George Z. Bush wrote:

> employees with excessive salaries. So, old money? It hardly seems likely. If,
> as he himself says, he always considered himself comfortably well off while he
> was growing up, that probably would have been a testimonial to the frugality
> with which his parents managed their accumulated resources rather than inherited
> wealth, as most old money is usually acquired.

Old money can also be acquired through marriage.

I believe that has been the Kerry "technique" in gaining it.


SMH

[George Z. Bush]

"Stephen Harding" > wrote in message
...
> George Z. Bush wrote:
>
> > employees with excessive salaries. So, old money? It hardly seems likely.
If,
> > as he himself says, he always considered himself comfortably well off while
he
> > was growing up, that probably would have been a testimonial to the frugality
> > with which his parents managed their accumulated resources rather than
inherited
> > wealth, as most old money is usually acquired.
>
> Old money can also be acquired through marriage.

I disagree. Old money is money that's been in your family for ages. What
people get when they marry into it is the title "nouveau riche".

George Z.

[Cub Driver]

>Neither Kerry or Bush will accept matching funds as that limits
>the amount that can be spent. As for soft money, the campaign
>finance bill basically made that illegal.

Neither Bush nor Kerry is taking match funds for the primary campaign.
Both will take it for the fall campaign.

You are in dreamland about soft money. How is George Soros spending
$1.5 million to defeat George Bush? That's the softest money there
ever was.

All McCain-Feingold did was ban overt soft money, the kind that was
meant for party-building. The covert soft money, George Soros's kind,
is attributed to no party.

For example, if somebody wanted to creat Vietnam Veterans for True
Patriotism, funded with $1.5 million from an anonymous source, that
would be perfectly okay with McCain-Feingold, so long as the VVTP
focussed its ads on the Vietnam Veterans Against the War and did not
specifically talk about the 2004 election.

The Bill of Rights has proved cussedly hard to get around :)

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[George Z. Bush]

R. David Steele wrote:
> On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 08:21:10 -0500, "George Z. Bush"
> > wrote:
>
>> R. David Steele wrote:
>>>>>>> The Bush family does not even begin to have the wealth that
>>>>>>> Senator Edwards (D-NC) has (over $50 million). And Sen. Kerry
>>>>>>> (D-MA) has ten times that ($500 million).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't speak to Edwards or Kerry but it seems that the Bush
>>>>>> family's money has very deeep roots that mean at least amount
>>>>>> as the bank bank balance; See
>>>>>>
>>>>>> American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of
>>>>>> Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin Phillips
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerry is very old money, as he is a Bonesman like Bush.
>>
>> Kerry may be a member of Skull and Bones, as is Bush, but he's miles from old
>> money. His grandfather was a Czech Jew named Fritz Kohn, who changed his
>> name to Frederick Kerry in 1902 while a Czech citizen, and emigrated to the
>> US three years later as Frederick Kerry. He committed suicide in 1921
>> apparently for financial reasons, which suggests that there was no family
>> money back then. Kerry's father was in the Foreign Service, which is not
>> known for providing its employees with excessive salaries. So, old money?
>> It hardly seems likely. If, as he himself says, he always considered
>> himself comfortably well off while he was growing up, that probably would
>> have been a testimonial to the frugality with which his parents managed
>> their accumulated resources rather than inherited wealth, as most old money
>> is usually acquired.
>>
>> George Z.
>
> The "F" in his middle name is for Forbes.

Touche. Point taken.

George Z.

[Merlin Dorfman]

George Z. Bush ) wrote:
: R. David Steele wrote:
: >>>>> The Bush family does not even begin to have the wealth that
: >>>>> Senator Edwards (D-NC) has (over $50 million). And Sen. Kerry
: >>>>> (D-MA) has ten times that ($500 million).
: >>>>>
: >>>>
: >>>> I can't speak to Edwards or Kerry but it seems that the Bush
: >>>> family's money has very deeep roots that mean at least amount
: >>>> as the bank bank balance; See
: >>>>
: >>>> American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of
: >>>> Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin Phillips
: >>>
: >>> Kerry is very old money, as he is a Bonesman like Bush.

: Kerry may be a member of Skull and Bones, as is Bush, but he's miles from old
: money. His grandfather was a Czech Jew named Fritz Kohn, who changed his name
: to Frederick Kerry in 1902 while a Czech citizen, and emigrated to the US three
: years later as Frederick Kerry. He committed suicide in 1921 apparently for
: financial reasons, which suggests that there was no family money back then.
: Kerry's father was in the Foreign Service, which is not known for providing its
: employees with excessive salaries. So, old money? It hardly seems likely. If,
: as he himself says, he always considered himself comfortably well off while he
: was growing up, that probably would have been a testimonial to the frugality
: with which his parents managed their accumulated resources rather than inherited
: wealth, as most old money is usually acquired.

Kerry's mother was old New England family and money.

[Merlin Dorfman]

Cub Driver ) wrote:

: The Bill of Rights has proved cussedly hard to get around :)

"Money seeks its own level." When one way of spending
money is blocked, others are found.

[Merlin Dorfman]

R. David Steele ) wrote:

: And the Bush family has a tradition that every generation has to
: make in on their own.

Is anybody making the ridiculous claim that GWB "made it on
his own?" He wouldn't have gotten any of those jobs without
parental influence...and he certainly wouldn't have gotten into
the Texas Air Guard.

[Ron]

>Is anybody making the ridiculous claim that GWB "made it on
>his own?" He wouldn't have gotten any of those jobs without
>parental influence...and he certainly wouldn't have gotten into
>the Texas Air Guard.

Parents can not get you your BA or BS degree.

They cant get you thru UPT

They cant get thru F-102 training.

Parents cant make you excel at pilot training and ACM.

They also cant get you your MBA.

Nor do parents just give you leadership.

He has accomplished far more than most people, and while connections may help
open the door, they do not get your thru or guarantee success. If a Democrat
or Green had done many of the things he has, they would be trumpeting those
accomplishments left and right.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

[George Z. Bush]

Merlin Dorfman wrote:
> George Z. Bush ) wrote:
>> R. David Steele wrote:
>>>>>>> The Bush family does not even begin to have the wealth that
>>>>>>> Senator Edwards (D-NC) has (over $50 million). And Sen. Kerry
>>>>>>> (D-MA) has ten times that ($500 million).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't speak to Edwards or Kerry but it seems that the Bush
>>>>>> family's money has very deeep roots that mean at least amount
>>>>>> as the bank bank balance; See
>>>>>>
>>>>>> American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune, and the Politics of
>>>>>> Deceit in the House of Bush by Kevin Phillips
>>>>>
>>>>> Kerry is very old money, as he is a Bonesman like Bush.
>
>> Kerry may be a member of Skull and Bones, as is Bush, but he's miles from old
>> money. His grandfather was a Czech Jew named Fritz Kohn, who changed his
>> name to Frederick Kerry in 1902 while a Czech citizen, and emigrated to the
>> US three years later as Frederick Kerry. He committed suicide in 1921
>> apparently for financial reasons, which suggests that there was no family
>> money back then. Kerry's father was in the Foreign Service, which is not
>> known for providing its employees with excessive salaries. So, old money?
>> It hardly seems likely. If, as he himself says, he always considered
>> himself comfortably well off while he was growing up, that probably would
>> have been a testimonial to the frugality with which his parents managed
>> their accumulated resources rather than inherited wealth, as most old money
>> is usually acquired.
>
> Kerry's mother was old New England family and money.

I've already acknowledged my error elsewhere. Her maiden name was Forbes.

George Z.

[George Z. Bush]

Ron wrote:
>> Is anybody making the ridiculous claim that GWB "made it on
>> his own?" He wouldn't have gotten any of those jobs without
>> parental influence...and he certainly wouldn't have gotten into
>> the Texas Air Guard.
>
> Parents can not get you your BA or BS degree.

They can indeed, especially if they are alumni and/or are public figures.
They're what are called legacy degrees.
>
> They cant get you thru UPT
>
> They cant get thru F-102 training.

The offspring of public figures often are extended courtesies and consideration
not available to others.
>
> Parents cant make you excel at pilot training and ACM.

I don't believe I ever read of a claim that he excelled. When he took his
AFOQT, his application form reflected a pencil entry of 25th pctl, which was the
lowest level acceptable for entrance into pilot training. I'm not even sure if
the pencilled in entry didn't replace a lower original one.
>
> They also cant get you your MBA.

He himself acknowledged that he was a mediocre student who spent most of his
time drinking and doing as little as possible in order to get through the
program. My father was a sheet metal mechanic and with a similar academic
performance from me, Harvard would have bounced me out on my ass in a heartbeat.
Let's not be so naive about the influence of parents who are public figures
and/or alumni.
>
> Nor do parents just give you leadership.
>
> He has accomplished far more than most people, and while connections may help
> open the door, they do not get your thru or guarantee success. If a Democrat
> or Green had done many of the things he has, they would be trumpeting those
> accomplishments left and right.

It's all in the eye of the beholder. When all is said and done, he can't
divorce his parents nor can he deny that he knows them when they make a
judicious call here or there and good things result for him. It doesn't mean he
did it all on his own. Bill Gates did it all on his own, but Dubya's nowhere
near in the same class.

George Z.

[Tarver Engineering]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
> Ron wrote:
> >> Is anybody making the ridiculous claim that GWB "made it on
> >> his own?" He wouldn't have gotten any of those jobs without
> >> parental influence...and he certainly wouldn't have gotten into
> >> the Texas Air Guard.
> >
> > Parents can not get you your BA or BS degree.
>
> They can indeed, especially if they are alumni and/or are public figures.
> They're what are called legacy degrees.

They are called legacy admissions. The student still has to do the work.

> > They cant get you thru UPT
> >
> > They cant get thru F-102 training.
>
> The offspring of public figures often are extended courtesies and
consideration
> not available to others.

Fighter pilot's sons are put to the head of the line for selection, but the
student still must do the work.

> > Parents cant make you excel at pilot training and ACM.
>
> I don't believe I ever read of a claim that he excelled. When he took his
> AFOQT, his application form reflected a pencil entry of 25th pctl, which
was the
> lowest level acceptable for entrance into pilot training. I'm not even
sure if
> the pencilled in entry didn't replace a lower original one.

You are mistaken, the Guard thought highly of GW's skills.

> > They also cant get you your MBA.
>
> He himself acknowledged that he was a mediocre student who spent most of
his
> time drinking and doing as little as possible in order to get through the
> program. My father was a sheet metal mechanic and with a similar academic
> performance from me, Harvard would have bounced me out on my ass in a
heartbeat.
> Let's not be so naive about the influence of parents who are public
figures
> and/or alumni.

No, GW admitted he was a mediocre student at Yale.

The Harvard MBA is the real deal.

> > Nor do parents just give you leadership.
> >
> > He has accomplished far more than most people, and while connections may
help
> > open the door, they do not get your thru or guarantee success. If a
Democrat
> > or Green had done many of the things he has, they would be trumpeting
those
> > accomplishments left and right.
>
> It's all in the eye of the beholder.

Yes.

[Ron]

>> Parents can not get you your BA or BS degree.
>
>They can indeed, especially if they are alumni and/or are public figures.
>They're what are called legacy degrees.

No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that does
not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of a legacy
degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.

>> They cant get thru F-102 training.
>
>The offspring of public figures often are extended courtesies and
>consideration
>not available to others.

I dont think an IP will care you are you or where you came from. Ask Ed if he
ever gave rats ass during Fighter Lead In who someone was.

> Parents cant make you excel at pilot training and ACM.
>
>I don't believe I ever read of a claim that he excelled. When he took his
>AFOQT, his application form reflected a pencil entry of 25th pctl, which was
>the
>lowest level acceptable for entrance into pilot training. I'm not even sure
>if
>the pencilled in entry didn't replace a lower original one.

I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good at
ACM while as an F-102 pilot

>> They also cant get you your MBA.
>
>He himself acknowledged that he was a mediocre student who spent most of his
>time drinking and doing as little as possible in order to get through the
>program. My father was a sheet metal mechanic and with a similar academic
>performance from me, Harvard would have bounced me out on my ass in a
>heartbeat.
>Let's not be so naive about the influence of parents who are public figures
>and/or alumni.

Hell, I was a mediocre student too. B average all the way thru..at best. But
my IQ, AFOQT, SAT, etc were usually pretty high. He (and I) had an SAT of over
1200, which tranlates pretty high. He certainly had a far better academic
record that Gore, but you dont see any Democrats that ever criticized Gore over
it


>It's all in the eye of the beholder. When all is said and done, he can't
>divorce his parents nor can he deny that he knows them when they make a
>judicious call here or there and good things result for him. It doesn't mean
>he
>did it all on his own. Bill Gates did it all on his own, but Dubya's nowhere
>near in the same class.
>
>George Z.

Yes, but it sounds like you are holding it against him, because of his parents.
But then Kerry, Kennedy, Roosevelt, all came from priviledged upbringings too.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

[George Z. Bush]

Ron wrote:
>>> Parents can not get you your BA or BS degree.
>>
>> They can indeed, especially if they are alumni and/or are public figures.
>> They're what are called legacy degrees.
>
> No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
> does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of a
> legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.

Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions" well
enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if you
think it works some other way......it doesn't!
>
>>> They cant get thru F-102 training.
>>
>> The offspring of public figures often are extended courtesies and
>> consideration
>> not available to others.
>
> I dont think an IP will care you are you or where you came from. Ask Ed if he
> ever gave rats ass during Fighter Lead In who someone was.

Ed may well not have during his career, but then he may never had a bumbler on
his wing only because the guy's daddy had clout. I, too, flew airplanes, and I
did it often enough to know that it can and does occasionally happen. I daresay
we've both worked for people who were career oriented to the degree that they
would have been responsive to potential political influence. It happens.
>
>> Parents cant make you excel at pilot training and ACM.
>>
>> I don't believe I ever read of a claim that he excelled. When he took his
>> AFOQT, his application form reflected a pencil entry of 25th pctl, which was
>> the
>> lowest level acceptable for entrance into pilot training. I'm not even sure
>> if
>> the pencilled in entry didn't replace a lower original one.
>
> I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
> at ACM while as an F-102 pilot

I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that he
grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an influential
congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my retirement
papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not conducive
to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.
>
>>> They also cant get you your MBA.
>>
>> He himself acknowledged that he was a mediocre student who spent most of his
>> time drinking and doing as little as possible in order to get through the
>> program. My father was a sheet metal mechanic and with a similar academic
>> performance from me, Harvard would have bounced me out on my ass in a
>> heartbeat.
>> Let's not be so naive about the influence of parents who are public figures
>> and/or alumni.
>
> Hell, I was a mediocre student too. B average all the way thru..at best. But
> my IQ, AFOQT, SAT, etc were usually pretty high. He (and I) had an SAT of
> over 1200, which tranlates pretty high. He certainly had a far better
> academic record that Gore, but you dont see any Democrats that ever
> criticized Gore over it

You're much too modest. A B average is hardly what anybody would consider
mediocre.........it is quite respectable. As for the various test scores you
got, that's really quite irrelevent to the discussion.

>
>
>> It's all in the eye of the beholder. When all is said and done, he can't
>> divorce his parents nor can he deny that he knows them when they make a
>> judicious call here or there and good things result for him. It doesn't mean
>> he
>> did it all on his own. Bill Gates did it all on his own, but Dubya's nowhere
>> near in the same class.
>>
>> George Z.
>
> Yes, but it sounds like you are holding it against him, because of his
> parents. But then Kerry, Kennedy, Roosevelt, all came from priviledged
> upbringings too.

Sure they did, but the last I heard, none of them majored in Alcoholism 101, and
none were C- students. AAMOF, if I recall correctly, you would not have gotten
a baccalaureate degree from my undergrad school with a C- average.....it would
have taken nothing less than a C average. Let's not confuse earning a degree
with being handed one with little if any expenditure of academic effort by the
student.

At risk of repeating myself, I think I said elsewhere that my father was a sheet
metal mechanic and if I had produced academic results no better than those
produced by Dubya, Harvard would have bounced my ass out of their MBA program in
a heartbeat.

George Z.

[BUFDRVR]

>> They cant get you thru UPT
>>
>> They cant get thru F-102 training.
>
>The offspring of public figures often are extended courtesies and
>consideration
>not available to others.

So now you're saying Bush got preferential treatment while going through
UPT/IFF and F-102 FTU? I'm sure you've got some proof for that ludicrous claim?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ron]

>> No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
>> does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of
>a
>> legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.
>
>Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
>washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
>well
>enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
>you
>think it works some other way......it doesn't!
>>

But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
degree.

>I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
>> at ACM while as an F-102 pilot
>
>I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
>were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
>he
>grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
>himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
>hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
>that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
>influential
>congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
>retirement
>papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
>conducive
>to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.

"advertisement

In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
of fighter pilots I've ever trained."


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

[Grantland]

(Ron) wrote:

>>> No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
>>> does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of
>>a
>>> legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.
>>
>>Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
>>washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
>>well
>>enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
>>you
>>think it works some other way......it doesn't!
>>>
>
>But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
>and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
>degree.
>
>>I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
>>> at ACM while as an F-102 pilot
>>
>>I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
>>were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
>>he
>>grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
>>himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
>>hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
>>that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
>>influential
>>congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
>>retirement
>>papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
>>conducive
>>to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.
>
>"advertisement
>
>In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
>Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
>self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury "Brown-nose" Udell. "I know your dad is a
>congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
>had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail <wink> in
>mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
>high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
>NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
>of fighter pilots I've ever trained."
>
LOL!

G
>Ron
>Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Grantland" > wrote in message
...
> (Ron) wrote:


> >In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base
in
> >Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt
and
> >self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury "Brown-nose" Udell. "I know your
dad is a
> >congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After
Bush
> >had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail
<wink> in
> >mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his
own
> >high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
> >NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5
percent
> >of fighter pilots I've ever trained."
> >
> LOL!

So now the universities, their faculty, the Texas ANG and who knows how many
others are required in the conspiracy. That Gore guy must have lost on
purpose too.

[Ed Rasimus]

On 29 Feb 2004 18:10:14 GMT, (Ron) wrote:

>In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
>Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
>self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
>congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
>had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
>mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
>high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
>NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
>of fighter pilots I've ever trained."
>
>
>Ron
>Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

And, let me add that when George W. Bush was in USAF Undergraduate
Pilot Training (a year long program which made it longer than John
Fonda Kerry was in SEA in BOTH of his "combat" tours), his T-37
instructor pilot was Tom "Baby Huey" Lockhart, an F-105 100-mission
over North Vietnam veteran who was with me at Korat in 1966.

Lockhart speaks well of the President's flying skills, but more
importantly, he is always ready to address the President's integrity
and friendship. When visiting a base nearby, the President spotted his
old IP across the rope-line--despite not having seen him in nearly 20
years, the President broke out of his Secret Service guards and went
to shake hands and express his gratitude to Tom for his instruction
years earlier.

Tom's got the pictures to prove it.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[George Z. Bush]

Ron wrote:
>>> No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
>>> does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of a
>>> legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.
>>
>> Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
>> washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
>> well
>> enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
>> you
>> think it works some other way......it doesn't!
>>>
>
> But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
> and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
> degree.

No conspiracy....merely facing reality. It happens, perhaps not often, but then
again, not rarely either.
>
>> I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
>>> at ACM while as an F-102 pilot
>>
>> I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
>> were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
>> he
>> grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
>> himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
>> hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
>> that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
>> influential
>> congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
>> retirement
>> papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
>> conducive
>> to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.
>
> "advertisement
>
> In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
> Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
> self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
> congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
> had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
> mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
> high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
> NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
> of fighter pilots I've ever trained."

That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in earlier
days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a fighter
cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and the
real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more forgiving
and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired Bush so
much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile drinking
games in the O Club bar.

George Z.

[Ron]

>That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in earlier
>days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a
>fighter
>cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and the
>real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
>grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more forgiving
>and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
>knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
>wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired Bush
>so
>much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile
>drinking
>games in the O Club bar.
>
>George Z.

But now you are trying to impugn someone else, just over your dislike of Bush,
without any real reason to be, and are just speculating. I think that stuff
is best left to you know who...


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

[Cub Driver]

I liked the Newsweek excerpt enough to look it up on the web. Reading
farther down the page, I broke up upon reading this paragraph:

"Discharged from the Navy in 1970, John Kerry was racked with
nightmares about his time in combat. He grew his hair and joined
Vietnam Veterans Against the War. Some of the vets, most of whom were
working class, resented the patrician Kerry. A VVAW leader named Scott
Camil told The Boston Globe that a vet tried to reach Kerry at home
and was told by someone, presumably a maid, "Master Kerry is not at
home." At the next meeting, someone hung a sign on Kerry's chair that
read, FREE THE KERRY MAID."


On 29 Feb 2004 18:10:14 GMT, (Ron) wrote:

>>> No, that is legacy in terms of points for university acceptance. But that
>>> does not help you pass your classe or get you your degree. Never heard of
>>a
>>> legacy degree...But it can apply for acceptance into school and frats.
>>
>>Even my old Chinese launderyman understood the concept of "no tickee, no
>>washee". University fundraisers understand "no degree, no contributions"
>>well
>>enough the know how to keep the money flowing. You're kidding yourself if
>>you
>>think it works some other way......it doesn't!
>>>
>
>But now you are heading toward a grand conspiracy involving university faculty
>and professors too. Legacy can help get you in, but it does not get you a
>degree.
>
>>I have read often that he was a very good stick at UPT, and he was damn good
>>> at ACM while as an F-102 pilot
>>
>>I guess we must have read different stuff. I read that his flying abilities
>>were so limited that his ANG supervisors were pleased when they learned that
>>he
>>grounded himself (by not getting a current flight physical) before he killed
>>himself and destroyed one of their airplanes in the process. Incidentally, I
>>hope you weren't relying on what was said about his performance on those OERs
>>that were written about him....if I was writing one on the son of an
>>influential
>>congressman, I wouldn't have been brutally frank or honest unless my
>>retirement
>>papers had already been approved. Doing something like that was not
>>conducive
>>to a long and satisfying career for the evaluator.
>
>"advertisement
>
>In late 1969, when George W. Bush showed up at Ellington Air Force Base in
>Texas for flight training, his instructor was a 270-pound judo black belt and
>self-described "mean S.O.B." named Maury Udell. "I know your dad is a
>congressman, but that doesn't mean a thing to me," Udell told Bush. After Bush
>had learned to fly jets, Udell tried to rattle him by getting on his tail in
>mock dogfights. Bush gave his instructor a hard look and began doing his own
>high-speed zigzags, "doing his damnedest to lose me," Udell recalled to
>NEWSWEEK. "He was not a candy a--." Udell rates Bush "among the top 5 percent
>of fighter pilots I've ever trained."
>


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Pete]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote
>
> That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in
earlier
> days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a
fighter
> cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and
the
> real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
> grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more
forgiving
> and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
> knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
> wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired
Bush so
> much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile
drinking
> games in the O Club bar.
>

You might want to ask Chad Hennings about size and fighter cockpits.
6'6", 291, A-10 pilot, Dallas Cowboys defensive tackle.

(ok...the A-10 is not a 'fighter' in the classic sense, but neither is it a
tanker, transport, or bomber)

Pete

[Felger Carbon]

"Merlin Dorfman" > wrote in message
...
> Cub Driver ) wrote:
>
> : The Bill of Rights has proved cussedly hard to get around :)
>
> "Money seeks its own level." When one way of spending
> money is blocked, others are found.

George F. Will, the political columnist, often sez "Money is
fungible". That's an erudite way to agree with you 100%. ;-)

[D. Strang]

JFKerry was still ****ing American water when his tour was over.
The Kennedy's got him his medals, and got him home safe.

I'm sure every Kennedy except Teddy was sorry they ever lifted
a finger when he went Communist.

[Merlin Dorfman]

Ron ) wrote:
: >Is anybody making the ridiculous claim that GWB "made it on
: >his own?" He wouldn't have gotten any of those jobs without
: >parental influence...and he certainly wouldn't have gotten into
: >the Texas Air Guard.

: Parents can not get you your BA or BS degree.

But as has been pointed out many times, many more people could
succeed at Yale than can be admitted. Of that large number, most
don't get admitted. A few do, some of them through parental influence.

: They cant get you thru UPT

: They cant get thru F-102 training.

: Parents cant make you excel at pilot training and ACM.

: They also cant get you your MBA.

See above.

: Nor do parents just give you leadership.

: He has accomplished far more than most people, and while connections may help
: open the door, they do not get your thru or guarantee success. If a Democrat
: or Green had done many of the things he has, they would be trumpeting those
: accomplishments left and right.

Accomplisments like getting a gentleman's "C" at Yale, getting
the minimum passing grade on a pilot aptitude test, ...?

[Ed Rasimus]

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:36:42 -0500, "George Z. Bush"
> wrote:

>That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in earlier
>days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a fighter
>cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and the
>real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
>grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more forgiving
>and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
>knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
>wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired Bush so
>much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile drinking
>games in the O Club bar.
>
>George Z.

After all these years, still misspelling my name....

The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
look at Robin Olds, 6' 2" and a solid 220 for most of his flying
years. That means starting with his WW II experience in P-38s and 51s.

I'm 6 foot and have been 200 pounds for my entire active flying
career. Lots of guys were taller and a few were shorter. Had one guy
in the 613th TFS with me at Torrejon named "Tiny" Reich. He was 6' 6".
He was a pilot in the F-4 at that time, but had been a WSO, shot down
in the back-seat of an F-4 and POW in Hanoi for almost a year.

The T-37 IP I mentioned, Tom Lockhart (who has a stronger favorable
opinion about GWB than Udell) is 6' 3" and generally ran about 225.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Mike Marron]

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>>"George Z. Bush" wrote:

>>That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in earlier
>>days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a fighter
>>cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and the
>>real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
>>grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more forgiving
>>and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
>>knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
>>wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired Bush so
>>much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile drinking
>>games in the O Club bar.

>>George Z.

>After all these years, still misspelling my name....

I know the feeling. Amazing, huh?

>The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
>urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
>look at Robin Olds, 6' 2" and a solid 220 for most of his flying
>years. That means starting with his WW II experience in P-38s and 51s.

>I'm 6 foot and have been 200 pounds for my entire active flying
>career. Lots of guys were taller and a few were shorter. Had one guy
>in the 613th TFS with me at Torrejon named "Tiny" Reich. He was 6' 6".
>He was a pilot in the F-4 at that time, but had been a WSO, shot down
>in the back-seat of an F-4 and POW in Hanoi for almost a year.

>The T-37 IP I mentioned, Tom Lockhart (who has a stronger favorable
>opinion about GWB than Udell) is 6' 3" and generally ran about 225.

Dad was extraordinarily broad across the shoulders and about the
same height and weight as you (6 ft. 1 in. and 200 lbs.) He usually
towered over most of the other somewhat shrimpy jocks on base. ;)

[George Z. Bush]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:36:42 -0500, "George Z. Bush"
> > wrote:
>
> >That's one pilot's opinion of another and hardly definitive. BTW, in earlier
> >days, anybody weighing 270 pounds would not have been able to fit into a
fighter
> >cockpit. The tall guys inevitably ended up in bombers or transports, and the
> >real heavy guys (like 270 lbs.) ended up as the flight surgeon's medically
> >grounded annual project. Century series cockpits might be far more forgiving
> >and I'd certainly defer to someone like Ed Rasmussen, who'd be far more
> >knowledgeable than I on that subject. Anyway, one might be forgiven for
> >wondering what Udell's supervisors thought of him, and if Udell admired Bush
so
> >much because they were cut from the same cloth and excelled at juvenile
drinking
> >games in the O Club bar.
> >
> >George Z.
>
> After all these years, still misspelling my name....

'Tis the price of fame that one must pay when encountering old timers being
subjected to repetitive brain farts. In any case, my apologies.
>
> The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
> urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
> look at Robin Olds, 6' 2" and a solid 220 for most of his flying
> years. That means starting with his WW II experience in P-38s and 51s.
>
> I'm 6 foot and have been 200 pounds for my entire active flying
> career. Lots of guys were taller and a few were shorter. Had one guy
> in the 613th TFS with me at Torrejon named "Tiny" Reich. He was 6' 6".
> He was a pilot in the F-4 at that time, but had been a WSO, shot down
> in the back-seat of an F-4 and POW in Hanoi for almost a year.
>
> The T-37 IP I mentioned, Tom Lockhart (who has a stronger favorable
> opinion about GWB than Udell) is 6' 3" and generally ran about 225.

Apart from repeating that I'd rather ask someone I thought might know rather
than insisting and making a fool of myself, I really always thought that the
bigger guys, and by that I mean guys who weighed considerably more than 225 or
measured somewhere above 6'3", were kept out of fighters by the people who made
those kinds of assignments early in our flying careers. At least, I thought
that was the case back in WWII and Korea.

Anyway, thanks for clarifying that for me. Obviously, even if it was true way
back then, it must have changed before or during the heydey of the Viet Nam
festivities, in which case, I obviously stand corrected.

George Z.

[D. Strang]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>
> The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
> urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
> look at Robin Olds, 6' 2" and a solid 220 for most of his flying
> years. That means starting with his WW II experience in P-38s and 51s.

I love the picture of Chappie James who is overflowing the F-4 cockpit,
while his backseater looks like his helmet is too big, and is so small you
could put two of him in there. I think it was in the GPO printed
USAF Aces and Aerial victories book.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:28:24 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:

>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>>
>> The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
>> urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
>> look at Robin Olds, 6' 2" and a solid 220 for most of his flying
>> years. That means starting with his WW II experience in P-38s and 51s.
>
>I love the picture of Chappie James who is overflowing the F-4 cockpit,
>while his backseater looks like his helmet is too big, and is so small you
>could put two of him in there. I think it was in the GPO printed
>USAF Aces and Aerial victories book.
>

Chappy tended toward over-statement. The real leader of the 8th TFW
was Robin, but with his emphasis on leading-by-example, Chappy was
forced to fly the tough missions as well.

Chappy's comment about his bulk in the F-4 cockpit was "I don't get
in, I put it on."

When a flight lead exhorted Chappie on how he wanted close formation
flown by saying, "I want you on my wing, attached with a six foot
string." Chappy replied, "how much slack ya'all want in that string."


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[George Z. Bush]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Mar 2004 17:28:24 -0600, "D. Strang"
> > wrote:
>
>> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>>>
>>> The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
>>> urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
>>> look at Robin Olds, 6' 2" and a solid 220 for most of his flying
>>> years. That means starting with his WW II experience in P-38s and 51s.
>>
>> I love the picture of Chappie James who is overflowing the F-4 cockpit,
>> while his backseater looks like his helmet is too big, and is so small you
>> could put two of him in there. I think it was in the GPO printed
>> USAF Aces and Aerial victories book.
>>
>
> Chappy tended toward over-statement. The real leader of the 8th TFW
> was Robin, but with his emphasis on leading-by-example, Chappy was
> forced to fly the tough missions as well.
>
> Chappy's comment about his bulk in the F-4 cockpit was "I don't get
> in, I put it on."
>
> When a flight lead exhorted Chappie on how he wanted close formation
> flown by saying, "I want you on my wing, attached with a six foot
> string." Chappy replied, "how much slack ya'all want in that string."

****! Easy for him to say! But you haven't lived until you've done it in a
C-46. By the time I'd get back on the ground, I always left a couple of inches
of sweat puddled in the pilot's seat of the horse.

And before you fighter jocks start snickering, I used to be able to tuck it in
just as tight as you guys did....I maybe had to work harder at it than you to
hold it in there, but that was work I never minded doing, because my ass was on
the line if I got lazy. (^-^)))

Anyway, I'm here to tell you about it, so I guess I got it right.

George Z.

[B2431]

>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 3/1/2004 5:28 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: <yGP0c.7164$m4.3944@okepread03>
>
>"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>>
>> The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
>> urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
>> look at Robin Olds, 6' 2" and a solid 220 for most of his flying
>> years. That means starting with his WW II experience in P-38s and 51s.
>
>I love the picture of Chappie James who is overflowing the F-4 cockpit,
>while his backseater looks like his helmet is too big, and is so small you
>could put two of him in there. I think it was in the GPO printed
>USAF Aces and Aerial victories book.
>

My main problem with the F-4E is the headroom from bucket to canopy was on the
order of 42 or 43 inches. I needed about 44 to sit up straight even with the
seat all the way down.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[vincent p. norris]

>The big guys to bombers, small guys to fighters concept is strictly an
>urban legend. And, it isn't simply related to Century Series--take a
>look at Robin Olds, 6' 2".......

When I finished Basic at Pensacola in 1950 and got to Corpus Christi
for Advanced, we were told that anyone over 5' 10" could forget about
getting into F8Fs.

vince norris

[Cub Driver]

>When I finished Basic at Pensacola in 1950 and got to Corpus Christi
>for Advanced, we were told that anyone over 5' 10" could forget about
>getting into F8Fs.

I suspect that was pretty much true of WWII fighter pilots. R T Smith
of the AVG Flying Tigers noted the difficulty he had in cramming
himself into a P-40. While there were six-foot fighter pilots in those
years, just as there are six-foot downhill racers, more typical in
both these fields of endeavor was the stocky, fireplug guy. Think
Chuck Yeager.

With respect to bombers, Glen Edwards noted his discomfort in the
B-17, and his relief when got into the A-20 where he could reach the
pedals without stretching.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 3/5/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>>When I finished Basic at Pensacola in 1950 and got to Corpus Christi
>>for Advanced, we were told that anyone over 5' 10" could forget about
>>getting into F8Fs.
>
>I suspect that was pretty much true of WWII fighter pilots. R T Smith
>of the AVG Flying Tigers noted the difficulty he had in cramming
>himself into a P-40. While there were six-foot fighter pilots in those
>years, just as there are six-foot downhill racers, more typical in
>both these fields of endeavor was the stocky, fireplug guy. Think
>Chuck Yeager.
>
>With respect to bombers, Glen Edwards noted his discomfort in the
>B-17, and his relief when got into the A-20 where he could reach the
>pedals without stretching.

I was 5'11" and couldn't sit straight up in the nose of a B-26 If I did my flak
helmet would slide down over my eyes. what a pain.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
> >From: Cub Driver
> >Date: 3/5/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >>When I finished Basic at Pensacola in 1950 and got to Corpus Christi
> >>for Advanced, we were told that anyone over 5' 10" could forget about
> >>getting into F8Fs.
> >
> >I suspect that was pretty much true of WWII fighter pilots. R T Smith
> >of the AVG Flying Tigers noted the difficulty he had in cramming
> >himself into a P-40. While there were six-foot fighter pilots in those
> >years, just as there are six-foot downhill racers, more typical in
> >both these fields of endeavor was the stocky, fireplug guy. Think
> >Chuck Yeager.
> >
> >With respect to bombers, Glen Edwards noted his discomfort in the
> >B-17, and his relief when got into the A-20 where he could reach the
> >pedals without stretching.
>
> I was 5'11" and couldn't sit straight up in the nose of a B-26 If I did my
flak
> helmet would slide down over my eyes. what a pain.
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I don't know about any "history" involved, but the cockpit of the 51, the
P40, and the Jug will easily handle a six footer. Of all the prop fighters I
have flown, the F8F was the tightest.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 3/5/04 6:17 AM Pacific Standard Time

> I was 5'11" and couldn't sit straight up in the nose of a B-26 If I did my
>flak
>> helmet would slide down over my eyes. what a pain.
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>
>I don't know about any "history" involved, but the cockpit of the 51, the
>P40, and the Jug will easily handle a six footer. Of all the prop fighters I
>have flown, the F8F was the tightest.
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>
>
I always love to hear from guys who really flew great stuff. How many different
planes did you fly and how many hours did you stack up? It all adds up to
experience. The more the better.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> >Date: 3/5/04 6:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
> > I was 5'11" and couldn't sit straight up in the nose of a B-26 If I did
my
> >flak
> >> helmet would slide down over my eyes. what a pain.
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >> 344th BG 494th BS
> >> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> >> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> >> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
> >
> >I don't know about any "history" involved, but the cockpit of the 51, the
> >P40, and the Jug will easily handle a six footer. Of all the prop
fighters I
> >have flown, the F8F was the tightest.
> >Dudley Henriques
> >International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> >Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
> >For personal email, please replace
> >the z's with e's.
> >dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
> >
> >
> I always love to hear from guys who really flew great stuff. How many
different
> planes did you fly and how many hours did you stack up? It all adds up to
> experience. The more the better.

I mean no offense Art, and I realize your request is sincere, but FWIW as a
general post to friend and foe alike;

It's just a fact of life as an unfortunate circumstance of posting on RAM
that the listing of specific experience serves no constructive purpose
whatsoever. Actually, this is true of Usenet in general, but speciffically
on RAM!
First of all, the annonimity of Usenet dictates that even a post from the
President of the United States might very well be from a sixty five year old
Cajin woman with a wart on her ass sitting at a computer console in a shack
along the Mississippi :-) Then after you get through that scenario, you have
to accept the fact that even if you have an image of the poster, that image
could be of someone else.
Then, after all this has been solved, and assuming the poster is authantic,
the posting of specific experience and qualifications can only be verified
by the addition of peripheral personal information that a ligimate poster
might not wish to release.
In my case, I use my own name. There is a literal ton of information on me
both in printed media and on the net. The listing of my quals and experience
will impress no one who already knows me, and will only invite hostile posts
from those who don't, and I no longer wish to deal with this on Usenet.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt




Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Dudley Henriques]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
> >Date: 3/5/04 6:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
> > I was 5'11" and couldn't sit straight up in the nose of a B-26 If I did
my
> >flak
> >> helmet would slide down over my eyes. what a pain.
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >> 344th BG 494th BS
> >> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> >> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> >> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
> >
> >I don't know about any "history" involved, but the cockpit of the 51, the
> >P40, and the Jug will easily handle a six footer. Of all the prop
fighters I
> >have flown, the F8F was the tightest.
> >Dudley Henriques
> >International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
> >Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
> >For personal email, please replace
> >the z's with e's.
> >dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
> >
> >
> I always love to hear from guys who really flew great stuff. How many
different
> planes did you fly and how many hours did you stack up? It all adds up to
> experience. The more the better.
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer


I mean no offense Art, and I realize your request is sincere, but FWIW as a
general post to friend and foe alike;

It's just a fact of life as an unfortunate circumstance of posting on RAM
that the listing of specific experience serves no constructive purpose
whatsoever. Actually, this is true of Usenet in general, but specifically
on RAM!
First of all, the anonymity of Usenet dictates that even a post from the
President of the United States might very well be from a sixty five year old
Cajon woman with a wart on her ass sitting at a computer console in a shack
along the Mississippi :-) Then after you get through that scenario, you have
to accept the fact that even if you have an image of the poster, that image
could be of someone else.
Then, after all this has been solved, and assuming the poster is authentic,
the posting of specific experience and qualifications can only be verified
by the addition of peripheral personal information that a legitimate poster
might not wish to release.
In my case, I use my own name. There is literally ton of information on me
both in printed media and on the net available to anyone bored enough with
their lives to want to dig it up :-) The listing of my quals and experience
will impress no one who already knows me, and will only invite hostile posts
from those who don't know me, and I no longer wish to deal with this on
Usenet.

Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

[Mike Marron]

> "Dudley Henriques" > wrote:


>I mean no offense Art, and I realize your request is sincere, but FWIW as a
>general post to friend and foe alike;

>It's just a fact of life as an unfortunate circumstance of posting on RAM
>that the listing of specific experience serves no constructive purpose
>whatsoever. Actually, this is true of Usenet in general, but specifically
>on RAM!
>First of all, the anonymity of Usenet dictates that even a post from the
>President of the United States might very well be from a sixty five year old
>Cajon woman with a wart on her ass sitting at a computer console in a shack
>along the Mississippi :-) Then after you get through that scenario, you have
>to accept the fact that even if you have an image of the poster, that image
>could be of someone else.
>Then, after all this has been solved, and assuming the poster is authentic,
>the posting of specific experience and qualifications can only be verified
>by the addition of peripheral personal information that a legitimate poster
>might not wish to release.
>In my case, I use my own name. There is literally ton of information on me
>both in printed media and on the net available to anyone bored enough with
>their lives to want to dig it up :-) The listing of my quals and experience
>will impress no one who already knows me, and will only invite hostile posts
>from those who don't know me, and I no longer wish to deal with this on
>Usenet.

My sentiments exactly, Dudley, however, ironic as hell that you're
responding to Kramer, whom as we all know was guilty of behaving
exactly like that "Cajon woman with a wart on her ass" that you so
aptly described above (e.g: his "Autocollimator" alter ego).

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
>From: "Dudley Henriques"
>Date: 3/5/04 7:35 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: . net>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: More on Powell and the guard
>> >From: "Dudley Henriques"
>> >Date: 3/5/04 6:17 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>
>> > I was 5'11" and couldn't sit straight up in the nose of a B-26 If I did
>my
>> >flak
>> >> helmet would slide down over my eyes. what a pain.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Arthur Kramer
>> >> 344th BG 494th BS
>> >> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> >> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> >> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>> >
>> >I don't know about any "history" involved, but the cockpit of the 51, the
>> >P40, and the Jug will easily handle a six footer. Of all the prop
>fighters I
>> >have flown, the F8F was the tightest.
>> >Dudley Henriques
>> >International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>> >Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>> >For personal email, please replace
>> >the z's with e's.
>> >dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>> >
>> >
>> I always love to hear from guys who really flew great stuff. How many
>different
>> planes did you fly and how many hours did you stack up? It all adds up to
>> experience. The more the better.
>
>I mean no offense Art, and I realize your request is sincere, but FWIW as a
>general post to friend and foe alike;
>
>It's just a fact of life as an unfortunate circumstance of posting on RAM
>that the listing of specific experience serves no constructive purpose
>whatsoever. Actually, this is true of Usenet in general, but speciffically
>on RAM!
>First of all, the annonimity of Usenet dictates that even a post from the
>President of the United States might very well be from a sixty five year old
>Cajin woman with a wart on her ass sitting at a computer console in a shack
>along the Mississippi :-) Then after you get through that scenario, you have
>to accept the fact that even if you have an image of the poster, that image
>could be of someone else.
>Then, after all this has been solved, and assuming the poster is authantic,
>the posting of specific experience and qualifications can only be verified
>by the addition of peripheral personal information that a ligimate poster
>might not wish to release.
>In my case, I use my own name. There is a literal ton of information on me
>both in printed media and on the net. The listing of my quals and experience
>will impress no one who already knows me, and will only invite hostile posts
>from those who don't, and I no longer wish to deal with this on Usenet.
>
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>
>
>
>
>Dudley Henriques
>International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
>Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
>For personal email, please replace
>the z's with e's.
>dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt
>
>

Gotcha. Went to Google typed in your name and got 10 hits on the first page
with 10 more pages to go. Off to read it all. Get back to you.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer