Is it easier now? [Archive]

Kevin Brooks

February 26th 04, 09:21 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
> >> military life easier now than it was then?
> >
> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th Infantry)
> >liberated Dachau?
> >
> >
>
> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever.
All the
> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
Hardly the
> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)

Omaha Beach? You mean where the 29th Inf Div, another NG outfit, was serving
as half of the spearhead? You know, the guys who suffered such horrndous
casualties in that first wave, such that they located that D-Day Memorial in
Bedford, VA? Then again, you could maybe really be thinking about the Guard
artillerymen and tankers who fought their way back down the PI, and the
survivors of which were among those undergoing the Bataan Death March...you
know, during the time you were still a wet-behind-the-ears high schooler,
right? Would they be the same Guardsmen you so recently libeled as being
worthless during WWII?

Brooks

>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Tarver Engineering

February 26th 04, 09:25 PM

OXMORON1

February 26th 04, 09:33 PM

Art wrote:
>"Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever. All
>the
>Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired. Hardly
>the
>equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)

Sorry they couldn't make Omaha Beach. IIRC at that time the 45th was somewhere
in Italy after the other Beach at Anzio.
Got two uncles buried there Art, they were "goof offs" in the National Guard
from about 1936 onwards. One was a LTC and the other a SFC.

In answer to your question, "Is it easier now? Yes and No, times change,
military is now all volunteer, generally smarter, better trained, more
specialized equipment, but the job is not easier. War is not easier and hasn't
been that way since Ugh and Orf fought it out with stone clubs. Killing is just
more efficient now.

You never used a periscopic sextant, correct? Well, I never used a GPS in an
airplane, but I probably dropped bombs made in the same plant as the ones you
dropped, maybe even in the same batch.
We used up all the old bombs and the guys now get to drop newer weapons, and
find the target a bit easier, but it isn't any easier.

The biggest difference that I can determine is that the enemy was easier to
identify in your day and the politicians didn't micromanage wars.

Rick

Paul J. Adam

February 26th 04, 09:50 PM

In message >, ArtKramr
> writes
>Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?.

Not as far as I can tell. In some ways it got worse: with "mission
command" you're not merely expected to fulfil your orders, but carry out
your commander's intent; and if that wasn't adequately communicated you
can get into a real mess. (It usually works and works very well indeed;
the recent fighting at Basra being an example, where units down to
platoon strength raided and recced without direct orders but fulfilling
the intent of "weaken the defenders and find out what's going on"). And
you'll _still_ be in the cacky for failing to obey an order unless it
was blatantly illegal.

>Is
>military life easier now than it was then?

A little more comfortable on exercises: Gore-Tex waterproofs, fleece
liners, better boots, good sleeping bags.

On the other hand, it's now a 24-hour battle, the enemy artillery is
larger and longer-ranged, chemical and biological weapons are
proliferated...

I'd have to say 'no'.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Leslie Swartz

February 26th 04, 10:10 PM

No;

But then again, we can kick the degree of difficulty UP a notch now that we
don't have to put up with incompetent draftees.

The WWII generation was an exercise in training to the lowest common
denominator.

Steve Swartz

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
> military life easier now than it was then?
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Howard Berkowitz

February 26th 04, 10:44 PM

In article >,
(ArtKramr) wrote:

> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?.
> >> Is
> >> military life easier now than it was then?
> >
> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th Infantry)
> >liberated Dachau?
> >
> >
>
> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever.
> All the
> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
> Hardly the
> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
>

I can't say if there was any armed resistance. IIRC, there was only
minor resistance at any of the camps that still had guards.

But I would state emphatically that any unit that liberated a camp
needed a great deal of discipline, suffered a great deal of stress, and
often displayed great moral courage in meeting a massive challenge for
which they were neither equipped nor trained. No combat unit had the
organic medical units to deal with the treatment -- and disease
prevention -- challenge that the liberating units met.

One very common observation was that after seeing a camp, the war became
easier when it involved killing Germans. I've heard this from American,
British and Russian accounts.

There was often no time for dignity, especially with the medical
knowledge of the time [1]. Even when the troops just bulldozed mass
graves and forced Germans to fill them, it was still something beyond
the nightmares of many. Lots of troops became medics on the spot.

[1] Unless there are specific situations such as contamination of a
water supply, or the presence of an arthropod-borne infectious
diseases, public health experts have come to the realization that
massive piles of dead bodies are more a psychological hazard than
an immediate risk of infection.

D. Strang

February 26th 04, 11:31 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
> military life easier now than it was then?

Yes (enlisted wise, probably not officer-wise). No one in the U.S. Armed
Forces is less than a high school graduate. With that, comes an education
base that consists of much more self-discipline. I'd say that after 1975,
the imposed discipline went away.

For example, in the Army, we had monthly detail duty at the Brig. It was
almost always full. After about 1975 the Brig was mostly empty, except for
a few sad cases, like AWOL or Desertion by men with hardship problems
back home. I remember in 1968 I had the detail at Fort Ord, and we had
three murderers, one arsonist, about 20 drug addicts, and maybe a couple
of queers. In 1989 I was assigned to take a rapist to Lawton, Oklahoma
and that was the first time in 10 years I had the detail.

When I retired, all you had to do was post the detail roster, and assign your
men to whatever training or duty you thought they needed, and they did it.
Most just wanted to get promoted as fast as they could.

Tank Fixer

February 27th 04, 03:46 AM

In article >,
on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
> >> military life easier now than it was then?
> >
> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th Infantry)
> >liberated Dachau?
> >
> >
>
> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever. All the
> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired. Hardly the
> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)

Yes, I guess your right.

I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.

Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.

I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
Not real soldiers, right Art ?

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 03:49 AM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: Tank Fixer
>Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
>> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
>> >> military life easier now than it was then?
>> >
>> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th Infantry)
>> >liberated Dachau?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever. All
>the
>> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired. Hardly
>the
>> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
>
>Yes, I guess your right.
>
>I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
>
>Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
>in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
>
>I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
>Not real soldiers, right Art ?
>
>--
>When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
>variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.
>
>
>
>
>
>

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: Tank Fixer
>Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
>> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
>> >> military life easier now than it was then?
>> >
>> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th Infantry)
>> >liberated Dachau?
>> >
>> >
>>
>> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever. All
>the
>> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired. Hardly
>the
>> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
>
>Yes, I guess your right.
>
>I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
>
>Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
>in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
>
>I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
>Not real soldiers, right Art ?
>

At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tank Fixer

February 27th 04, 07:31 AM

In article >,
on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: Tank Fixer
> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >

> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever. All
> >the
> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired. Hardly
> >the
> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> >
> >Yes, I guess your right.
> >
> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
> >
> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> >
> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> >
>
>
> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?

No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.

Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
early 70's ?

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Ragnar

February 27th 04, 08:18 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: Tank Fixer
> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?.
Is
> >> >> military life easier now than it was then?
> >> >
> >> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th
Infantry)
> >> >liberated Dachau?
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever.
All
> >the
> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
Hardly
> >the
> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> >
> >Yes, I guess your right.
> >
> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
> >
> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> >
> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> >
>
>
> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?

Why not just answer the question instead of trying to hide behind personal
attacks?

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 02:09 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 2/27/04 12:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: Tank Fixer
>> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >In article >,
>> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
>> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>> >
>> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?.
>Is
>> >> >> military life easier now than it was then?
>> >> >
>> >> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th
>Infantry)
>> >> >liberated Dachau?
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever.
>All
>> >the
>> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
>Hardly
>> >the
>> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
>> >
>> >Yes, I guess your right.
>> >
>> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
>> >
>> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
>> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
>> >
>> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
>> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
>> >
>>
>>
>> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
>
>Why not just answer the question instead of trying to hide behind personal
>attacks?
>
>
I'll let Colin Powell answer for me:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 02:11 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: Tank Fixer
>Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
>> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: Tank Fixer
>> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >In article >,
>> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
>> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>> >
>
>> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever.
>All
>> >the
>> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
>Hardly
>> >the
>> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
>> >
>> >Yes, I guess your right.
>> >
>> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
>> >
>> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
>> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
>> >
>> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
>> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
>> >
>>
>>
>> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
>
>No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
>
>Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
>early 70's ?
>
>
As Colin Powell said:
"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

February 27th 04, 02:34 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: Tank Fixer
> >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >From: Tank Fixer
> >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >In article >,
> >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >> >
> >
> >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
whatever.
> >All
> >> >the
> >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
> >Hardly
> >> >the
> >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> >> >
> >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> >> >
> >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
1942/43.
> >> >
> >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
penensula
> >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> >> >
> >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> >
> >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
> >
> >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
> >early 70's ?
> >
> >
> As Colin Powell said:
> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

You got any new tunes you can play? That one has proven to be a bit
stale--especially given the response that same individual provided to the
smart-assed congressional staffer who wanted to visit the issue during
testimaony a week or two back...but you probably missed that, right? Just
like you seem to have missed every other significant development that has
occured since 1945.

Brooks

>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Kevin Brooks

February 27th 04, 02:36 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Ragnar"
> >Date: 2/27/04 12:18 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >From: Tank Fixer
> >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >In article >,
> >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >> >
> >> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >> >Date: 2/26/04 12:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> >> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since
WWI?.
> >Is
> >> >> >> military life easier now than it was then?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Do you mean compared to when the Oklahoma National Guard (45th
> >Infantry)
> >> >> >liberated Dachau?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
whatever.
> >All
> >> >the
> >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
> >Hardly
> >> >the
> >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> >> >
> >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> >> >
> >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
1942/43.
> >> >
> >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
penensula
> >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> >> >
> >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> >
> >Why not just answer the question instead of trying to hide behind
personal
> >attacks?
> >
> >
> I'll let Colin Powell answer for me:
>
> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Was Colin Powell talking about the NG personnel in question at Bataan or on
New Guinea (while you were still whining in high school)? Nope. Still can't
bear to face the question, huh?

Brooks

>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

OXMORON1

February 27th 04, 02:51 PM

Mr Kramer wrote:

>I'll let Colin Powell answer for me:
>
>"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>

A little improvement, at least now Art puts it in quotation marks and
attributes it to someone else. Not trying to make it appear to be his original
thought as he did at the start of the go round on the National Guard.

Try answering the question Art!

Art, you were in advertizing, correct? Did you ever have an original thought?

Rick Clark

Tarver Engineering

February 27th 04, 04:06 PM

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > >From: Tank Fixer
> > >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >In article >,
> > > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> > > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > >
> > >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > >> >From: Tank Fixer
> > >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >Message-id: >
> > >> >
> > >> >In article >,
> > >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> > >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > >> >
> > >
> > >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
> whatever.
> > >All
> > >> >the
> > >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being
fired.
> > >Hardly
> > >> >the
> > >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> > >> >
> > >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> > >> >
> > >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
> 1942/43.
> > >> >
> > >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
> penensula
> > >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> > >> >
> > >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> > >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> > >
> > >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
> > >
> > >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
> > >early 70's ?
> > >
> > >
> > As Colin Powell said:
> > "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> > well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> > Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> > discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> > Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>
> You got any new tunes you can play? That one has proven to be a bit
> stale--especially given the response that same individual provided to the
> smart-assed congressional staffer who wanted to visit the issue during
> testimaony a week or two back...but you probably missed that, right? Just
> like you seem to have missed every other significant development that has
> occured since 1945.

Art only showed up for the last year of WWII.

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 05:51 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/27/04 8:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> > >From: Tank Fixer
>> > >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> > >Message-id: >
>> > >
>> > >In article >,
>> > > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
>> > > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>> > >
>> > >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> > >> >From: Tank Fixer
>> > >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> > >> >Message-id: >
>> > >> >
>> > >> >In article >,
>> > >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
>> > >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>> > >> >
>> > >
>> > >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
>> whatever.
>> > >All
>> > >> >the
>> > >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being
>fired.
>> > >Hardly
>> > >> >the
>> > >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Yes, I guess your right.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
>> 1942/43.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
>> penensula
>> > >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
>> > >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
>> > >> >
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
>> > >
>> > >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
>> > >
>> > >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
>> > >early 70's ?
>> > >
>> > >
>> > As Colin Powell said:
>> > "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>> > well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>> > Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>> > discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>> > Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>>
>> You got any new tunes you can play? That one has proven to be a bit
>> stale--especially given the response that same individual provided to the
>> smart-assed congressional staffer who wanted to visit the issue during
>> testimaony a week or two back...but you probably missed that, right? Just
>> like you seem to have missed every other significant development that has
>> occured since 1945.
>
>Art only showed up for the last year of WWII.
>
>
1943-1946. You can't count either. Never saw you there btw. Tell us about your
combat experience.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tarver Engineering

February 27th 04, 06:23 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/27/04 8:06 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> > >From: Tank Fixer
> >> > >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> > >Message-id: >
> >> > >
> >> > >In article >,
> >> > > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> >> > > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >> > >
> >> > >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> > >> >From: Tank Fixer
> >> > >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> > >> >Message-id: >
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >In article >,
> >> > >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> >> > >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >> > >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
> >> whatever.
> >> > >All
> >> > >> >the
> >> > >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being
> >fired.
> >> > >Hardly
> >> > >> >the
> >> > >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
> >> 1942/43.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
> >> penensula
> >> > >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> >> > >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> >> > >
> >> > >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
> >> > >
> >> > >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in
the
> >> > >early 70's ?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > As Colin Powell said:
> >> > "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> >> > well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> >> > Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> >> > discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> >> > Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their
country."
> >>
> >> You got any new tunes you can play? That one has proven to be a bit
> >> stale--especially given the response that same individual provided to
the
> >> smart-assed congressional staffer who wanted to visit the issue during
> >> testimaony a week or two back...but you probably missed that, right?
Just
> >> like you seem to have missed every other significant development that
has
> >> occured since 1945.
> >
> >Art only showed up for the last year of WWII.
> >
> >
> 1943-1946. You can't count either. Never saw you there btw. Tell us about
your
> combat experience.

You have changed your experiance, old fart. Don't start lying to us.

Joe Osman

February 27th 04, 06:49 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
> military life easier now than it was then?
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

I assume you mean WWII. According to "This Kind of War" by T. R.
Fehrenbach, the looser and more liberal started right after WWII with the
Army's Doolittle Commission, which recommended taking out a lot of the
strict discipline that you describe. Many WWII Army veterans were of the
opinion that they didn't need all that discipline and would have done just
fine without it. They made this known to their congressman. The end result
was a lot of dead soldiers in Korea because the US Army was often too
undisciplined to stand and fight. Books like "The River and the Gauntlet" by
SLA Marshall or "East of Chosin" and "Disaster in Korea" both by Roy E.
Appleman show the lack of discipline in the American soldiers and its
consequences.

Joe

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 07:02 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Joe Osman"
>Date: 2/27/04 10:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
>> military life easier now than it was then?
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>
> I assume you mean WWII. According to "This Kind of War" by T. R.
>Fehrenbach, the looser and more liberal started right after WWII with the
>Army's Doolittle Commission, which recommended taking out a lot of the
>strict discipline that you describe. Many WWII Army veterans were of the
>opinion that they didn't need all that discipline and would have done just
>fine without it. They made this known to their congressman. The end result
>was a lot of dead soldiers in Korea because the US Army was often too
>undisciplined to stand and fight. Books like "The River and the Gauntlet" by
>SLA Marshall or "East of Chosin" and "Disaster in Korea" both by Roy E.
>Appleman show the lack of discipline in the American soldiers and its
>consequences.
>
>Joe
>
>
>
>
>-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
>http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
>-----== Over 100,000 Newsgroups - 19 Different Servers! =-----

Thank you. Best post on the subject yet.
We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders. The price of paid
later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well documented. Sadly.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ed Rasimus

February 27th 04, 07:50 PM

On 27 Feb 2004 19:02:11 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
>>> military life easier now than it was then?
>>>
>>>
>>> Arthur Kramer

You ask a question, but then it appears that if the answer doesn't fit
your pre-disposition, you can't accept it. If you are asking about
discipline since WWI (not II) then quite clearly you would really be
asking about the French, British and Germans (plus Turks), since the
USA only spent a year and a half out of the four year war. Certainly
there was iron discipline then--witness the carnage of the trench
warfare. The museums and particularly the Ossuary at Verdun are
sobering testimony to the price to be paid by the discipline
footsoldier led by the aristocratic officer corps. I don't think
that's what you are talking about. You've always seemed much more
egalitarian than that.

But, maybe you meant WW II and simply typo'd the lost "I". Then, I'd
have to say the US leadership was strong and the morale/patriotism of
the ground soldier was what made the military so powerful. It wasn't
blind obedience to incompetent leadership, but rather a citizen army
of highly motivated individuals. Again, a more egalitarian army than
that which the Germans and Japanese fielded.

Have things changed in the intervening years? Absolutely. There is a
much more highly educated officer (and NCO corps) than in WW II. The
technology has advanced incredibly and the force multiplying potential
of modern weapons has made massed infantry charges largely obsolete.

Life is certainly easier in an all-volunteer force. A professional,
rather than conscript, military expects to get reasonable compensation
for service and the competition with the private sector means ritual
abuse of lower ranks can't be tolerated. Living conditions are much
better and reasonably should be. There's no need for open bay barracks
and communal latrines if you aren't dealing with a full national
mobilization.
>
>Thank you. Best post on the subject yet.
>We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders. The price of paid
>later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well documented. Sadly.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Sorry, Art, but here you go too far. You regularly talk about those
who've been and those who've not. I've been. We weren't sloppy and we
weren't "momma's boys". When I flew F-105s over N. Vietnam, the loss
rate was one per 65 missions--the tour was 100 missions. Three out of
five who started a tour were shot down and killed or captured.

When I returned in the F-4, I logged another 150 missions. That was
among a lot of guys on their second or even third combat tours. That's
250 total--how many did you say you got?

Today, we look at Desert Storm and the loss rate for fixed wing
aircraft in the campaign was 1 per 3500 missions. In Iraqi Freedom,
one fixed wing aircraft was lost in 11,600 sorties. Does that sound
lax, poorly trained, inefficient????

You'll get respect when you give it. And, you'll need to recognize
that while your war was hard and vicious, the business of combat is
always going to be brutal. When men go to war and "see the elephant"
they learn a lot about themselves and those around them. Don't demean
them and you'll find they won't snap back at you.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 08:08 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: Ed Rasimus
>Date: 2/27/04 11:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <417v309d5onmk1m7rbjsbsuvhu

>Then, I'd
>have to say the US leadership was strong and the morale/patriotism of
>the ground soldier was what made the military so powerful. It wasn't
>blind obedience to incompetent leadership,

First you say the leadership was strong then you talk about incompetent
leadership. I think the leadership in WW II was outstanding, better than in
many wars that followed. >When I returned in the F-4, I logged another 150
missions. That was
>among a lot of guys on their second or even third combat tours. That's
>250 total--how many did you say you got?

I flew 50 missions. 15 short of going home. But as I started in a previous
post, :"An officer never allows himself to be put on the defensive" So I won't
go on the defensive now. And I certainly will not raise the issue of WW II
losses in the air as compared to Nam losses in the air.

>Three out of
>five who started a tour were shot down and killed or captured.

That is a 60% loss rate. Can you verify that?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

OXMORON1

February 27th 04, 08:25 PM

Ed wrote:
>>Then, I'd
>>have to say the US leadership was strong and the morale/patriotism of
>>the ground soldier was what made the military so powerful. It wasn't
>>blind obedience to incompetent leadership,
>
Art snapped back with :

>First you say the leadership was strong then you talk about incompetent
>leadership. I think the leadership in WW II was outstanding, better than in
>many wars that followed. >

Art read what the HECK that Ed wrote again. He didn't say that the US
leadership was incompetent. He SAID "it wasn't
blind obedience to incompetent leadership, He referred to STRONG LEADERSHIP and
MORALE/PATRIOTISM of the troops as the factors which led to success.

Rick Clark

Ed Rasimus

February 27th 04, 08:33 PM

On 27 Feb 2004 20:08:09 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>>From: Ed Rasimus
>>Date: 2/27/04 11:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: <417v309d5onmk1m7rbjsbsuvhu
>
>>Then, I'd
>>have to say the US leadership was strong and the morale/patriotism of
>>the ground soldier was what made the military so powerful. It wasn't
>>blind obedience to incompetent leadership,
>
>First you say the leadership was strong then you talk about incompetent
>leadership. I think the leadership in WW II was outstanding, better than in
>many wars that followed.

I said the leadership was strong. I said it WASN'T blind obedience to
incompetent leadership.

One of the key elements of American success in the air--all wars in
the air, not just WW II, has been the aggressiveness and the
initiative of the American aviators. That isn't lock-step blind
obedience.

>>Three out of
>>five who started a tour were shot down and killed or captured.
>
>That is a 60% loss rate. Can you verify that?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

If you'll check the Appendix of When Thunder Rolled, you'll find a
listing of 101 F-105 losses (tail number and crew names by date)
during the period April/November 1966. That was from 3 squadrons at
Takhli (18 aircraft/squadron) and first two squadrons, then from July
onward, four squadrons at Korat. That's a loss of 110 % of the
assigned aircraft in six months. The names and dates come from "Roll
Call: Thud" and from Hobson's "Vietnam Air Losses." (dual sourcing.)

Newsweek magazine in August of '66 published the 1-in-65 missions
figure as part of a feature article on Major James Kasler, Korean War
ace who was active in F-105s from Takhli. Kasler was shot down shortly
thereafter and spent the next 6.5 years in captivity.

You might want to discuss the "momma's boy" comment with some of the
ex-cons. They would be happy to talk about courage, I'm sure.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

George Z. Bush

February 27th 04, 09:25 PM

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On 27 Feb 2004 19:02:11 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
> >>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>> Did military discipline become looser and more liberal since WWI?. Is
> >>> military life easier now than it was then?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Arthur Kramer
>
> You ask a question, but then it appears that if the answer doesn't fit
> your pre-disposition, you can't accept it. If you are asking about
> discipline since WWI (not II) then quite clearly you would really be
> asking about the French, British and Germans (plus Turks), since the
> USA only spent a year and a half out of the four year war. Certainly
> there was iron discipline then--witness the carnage of the trench
> warfare. The museums and particularly the Ossuary at Verdun are
> sobering testimony to the price to be paid by the discipline
> footsoldier led by the aristocratic officer corps. I don't think
> that's what you are talking about. You've always seemed much more
> egalitarian than that.
>
> But, maybe you meant WW II and simply typo'd the lost "I". Then, I'd
> have to say the US leadership was strong and the morale/patriotism of
> the ground soldier was what made the military so powerful. It wasn't
> blind obedience to incompetent leadership, but rather a citizen army
> of highly motivated individuals. Again, a more egalitarian army than
> that which the Germans and Japanese fielded.
>
> Have things changed in the intervening years? Absolutely. There is a
> much more highly educated officer (and NCO corps) than in WW II. The
> technology has advanced incredibly and the force multiplying potential
> of modern weapons has made massed infantry charges largely obsolete.
>
> Life is certainly easier in an all-volunteer force. A professional,
> rather than conscript, military expects to get reasonable compensation
> for service and the competition with the private sector means ritual
> abuse of lower ranks can't be tolerated. Living conditions are much
> better and reasonably should be. There's no need for open bay barracks
> and communal latrines if you aren't dealing with a full national
> mobilization.
> >
> >Thank you. Best post on the subject yet.
> >We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders. The price of
paid
> >later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well documented. Sadly.
> >
> >
> >Arthur Kramer
>
> Sorry, Art, but here you go too far. You regularly talk about those
> who've been and those who've not. I've been. We weren't sloppy and we
> weren't "momma's boys". When I flew F-105s over N. Vietnam, the loss
> rate was one per 65 missions--the tour was 100 missions. Three out of
> five who started a tour were shot down and killed or captured.
>
> When I returned in the F-4, I logged another 150 missions. That was
> among a lot of guys on their second or even third combat tours. That's
> 250 total--how many did you say you got?
>
> Today, we look at Desert Storm and the loss rate for fixed wing
> aircraft in the campaign was 1 per 3500 missions. In Iraqi Freedom,
> one fixed wing aircraft was lost in 11,600 sorties. Does that sound
> lax, poorly trained, inefficient????
>
> You'll get respect when you give it. And, you'll need to recognize
> that while your war was hard and vicious, the business of combat is
> always going to be brutal. When men go to war and "see the elephant"
> they learn a lot about themselves and those around them. Don't demean
> them and you'll find they won't snap back at you.

Bravo! I couldn't have said it better if I'd spent ten years trying. Pity we
can't bottle it or can it and sell it out of vending machines to high school
kids. The country'd be a lot better off if they consumed a little bit of that
instead of all those soft drinks that rot their teeth. (*-*)))

George Z.

Cub Driver

February 27th 04, 10:50 PM

>>We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.

Excuse me, but is this supposed to be a reference to the USAAF in
WWII?

I know a retired British colonel who still says "ah, the American
salute" when he comments on young men with their hands in their
pockets.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

BUFDRVR

February 27th 04, 10:52 PM

>The price of paid
>later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well documented. Sadly.

I'm not sure what time period you're talking about here, can you be more
specific because, in my opinion, the US has never had a "sloppy, mamma's boy
military"?

I've got news for you old man, the only differences between those serving from
1940-1945 and those serving today is today everyone (enlisted, NCO and officer)
is better educated. You think you and your B-26 crew had the market cornered on
dedication, bravery and determination, and that may be the biggest BS you
shovel on this news group.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

D. Strang

February 27th 04, 10:55 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Only a black man would think like that.

D. Strang

February 27th 04, 10:56 PM

D. Strang

February 27th 04, 11:03 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.

There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in WW#2.

> The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
> documented. Sadly.

Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.

D. Strang

February 27th 04, 11:12 PM

"Cub Driver" > wrote
>
> I know a retired British colonel who still says "ah, the American
> salute" when he comments on young men with their hands in their
> pockets.

You can spot an American in Europe very easily. He's the one
spitting all the time. You can tell the southern Americans also, they
snort real loud to dig up as much phlem as the can before they shoot.

Jarg

February 27th 04, 11:26 PM

"D. Strang" > wrote in message
news:y9Q%b.6172$m4.2142@okepread03...
> "Cub Driver" > wrote
> >
> > I know a retired British colonel who still says "ah, the American
> > salute" when he comments on young men with their hands in their
> > pockets.
>
> You can spot an American in Europe very easily. He's the one
> spitting all the time. You can tell the southern Americans also, they
> snort real loud to dig up as much phlem as the can before they shoot.
>
>

You can spot a European in Europe. He's usually the one with bad teeth and
terrible body odor.

Jarg

Yeff

February 27th 04, 11:27 PM

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 17:50:11 -0500, Cub Driver wrote:

> I know a retired British colonel who still says "ah, the American
> salute" when he comments on young men with their hands in their
> pockets.

They're called "Airmen Mittens" thankyouverymuch!

-Jeff B.
yeff at erols dot com

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 01:24 AM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 2/27/04 2:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <4WP%b.6169$m4.4056@okepread03>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>
>Only a black man would think like that.
>

No comment.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ed Majden

February 28th 04, 02:55 AM

"ArtKramr" > >> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> >> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National

Why is the ANG being put down by so many? They provide a very usefull
reserve function and in many cases are regular force members that have
returned to civilian life. In Canada we call these units the reserves.
They are now being used by the CF on many peace keeping and peace making
missions. Most of our reserves are Army types but there is also an air and
naval element reserves. I think they do a dammed fine job.
Ed

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 03:17 AM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Ed Majden"
>Date: 2/27/04 6:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <EqT%b.633877$X%5.197935@pd7tw2no>
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > >> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>> >> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>
> Why is the ANG being put down by so many? They provide a very usefull
>reserve function and in many cases are regular force members that have
>returned to civilian life. In Canada we call these units the reserves.
>They are now being used by the CF on many peace keeping and peace making
>missions. Most of our reserves are Army types but there is also an air and
>naval element reserves. I think they do a dammed fine job.
>Ed
>
>

That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

D. Strang

February 28th 04, 03:25 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before about
1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined it
after active duty. Most people took their draft, and ended up in Germany
or Korea (and no one asked about a ****ing exit-strategy). Most served,
got the clap, and were home to momma before anyone knew they were
gone.

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 04:19 AM

In article >,
on 27 Feb 2004 14:09:32 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >
> >
> I'll let Colin Powell answer for me:

You arn't Gen Powell

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 04:22 AM

In article <vST%b.6195$m4.5226@okepread03>,
on Fri, 27 Feb 2004 21:25:12 -0600,
D. Strang attempted to say .....

> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.
>
> In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before about
> 1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined it
> after active duty.

You are inncorrect, when I came off active duty to the Guard in 1980 there
were many who had joined direct out of high school in the 1950's

Those old guys in many cases spent 40 years in the Guard and many went
from E1 to CW5 or O5 before they were through.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 04:22 AM

In article >,
on 27 Feb 2004 14:11:00 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: Tank Fixer
> >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >From: Tank Fixer
> >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >In article >,
> >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >> >
> >
> >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance whatever.
> >All
> >> >the
> >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
> >Hardly
> >> >the
> >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> >> >
> >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> >> >
> >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
> >> >
> >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan penensula
> >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> >> >
> >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> >
> >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
> >
> >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
> >early 70's ?
> >
> >
> As Colin Powell said:
> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>

OK, so we know what the good general said.

I was asking you however.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

D. Strang

February 28th 04, 04:29 AM

"Tank Fixer" > wrote
> D. Strang attempted to say .....
> > "ArtKramr" > wrote
> > >
> > > That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.
> >
> > In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before about
> > 1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined it
> > after active duty.
>
> You are incorrect, when I came off active duty to the Guard in 1980 there
> were many who had joined direct out of high school in the 1950's

Sounds like personal unit experience, rather than national statistics.

If your experience were true, then most of the Guard would have been about
40 years old, and too old for humping 40 lbs in the jungle (i.e., worthless).

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 04:49 AM

In article <EOU%b.6211$m4.4819@okepread03>,
on Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:29:21 -0600,
D. Strang attempted to say .....

> "Tank Fixer" > wrote
> > D. Strang attempted to say .....
> > > "ArtKramr" > wrote
> > > >
> > > > That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.
> > >
> > > In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before about
> > > 1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined it
> > > after active duty.
> >
> > You are incorrect, when I came off active duty to the Guard in 1980 there
> > were many who had joined direct out of high school in the 1950's
>
> Sounds like personal unit experience, rather than national statistics.

It is, do you have any ?
You have national statistics then ?

>
> If your experience were true, then most of the Guard would have been about
> 40 years old, and too old for humping 40 lbs in the jungle (i.e., worthless).

This was a GS maintenance company. Did I say they all had joined in the
1950's ? No, that some had.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 04:51 AM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: Tank Fixer
>Date: 2/27/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> on 27 Feb 2004 14:11:00 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
>> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: Tank Fixer
>> >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >In article >,
>> > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
>> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>> >
>> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >> >From: Tank Fixer
>> >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >In article >,
>> >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
>> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>> >> >
>> >
>> >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
>whatever.
>> >All
>> >> >the
>> >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
>> >Hardly
>> >> >the
>> >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
>> >> >
>> >> >Yes, I guess your right.
>> >> >
>> >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
>> >> >
>> >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
>penensula
>> >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
>> >> >
>> >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
>> >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
>> >
>> >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
>> >
>> >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
>> >early 70's ?
>> >
>> >
>> As Colin Powell said:
>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>>
>
>
>OK, so we know what the good general said.
>
>I was asking you however.
>
>
I agree with General Powell.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

D. Strang

February 28th 04, 04:55 AM

"Tank Fixer" > wrote
>
> Did I say they all had joined in the 1950's ? No, that some had.

Actually, you said "many" had. Now you say "some." We're probably getting
closer to the truth, that "very few" had.

D. Strang

February 28th 04, 05:01 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> I agree with General Powell.

Powell wrote that over 10 years ago. He was talking about a narrow
window of history. The reason you offer the quote today, is that it is
being pushed by the DNC, and the AARP.

Kerry's welfare promise to AARP membership is the reason you invest
in this quote.

Powell is serving the best candidate for our next President. If Kerry is
nominated by the Democrats, then we have a choice between Capitalism
and Communism. A Central Planning Committee, or a free market.

Kevin Brooks

February 28th 04, 05:22 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Ed Majden"
> >Date: 2/27/04 6:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: <EqT%b.633877$X%5.197935@pd7tw2no>
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > >> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> >> >> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> >
> > Why is the ANG being put down by so many? They provide a very
usefull
> >reserve function and in many cases are regular force members that have
> >returned to civilian life. In Canada we call these units the reserves.
> >They are now being used by the CF on many peace keeping and peace making
> >missions. Most of our reserves are Army types but there is also an air
and
> >naval element reserves. I think they do a dammed fine job.
> >Ed
> >
> >
>
> That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

No, your comments regarding the Guard have been even worse. ISTR you just
recently labled the Guardsmen who served during WWII as "shirkers", did you
not? Those "shirkers" who were struggling to survive the Bataan Death March,
the combination of disease and Japanese bullets at Bloody Buna, and were
some the first troops ashore at Normandy? Stop weaseliing away by trying to
put the blame on Powell--you are the one who keeps taking his quote out of
context in regards to the WWII period.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Kevin Brooks

February 28th 04, 05:30 AM

"D. Strang" > wrote in message
news:41Q%b.6171$m4.4277@okepread03...
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >
> > We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.
>
> There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
> commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in WW#2.
>
> > The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
> > documented. Sadly.
>
> Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
> combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
> Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
> them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.

Hey, what about Malmedy? It was bad enough that Pieper pulled the machine
gunning of PW's, but you also had the USAAF (inluding one raid by Art's
beloved B-26's) hit the town not once but *twice* while it was in allied
hands! Strangely, this would have been during the time when Art has claimed
he was sent forward to man the trenches--now why would the USAAF have sent a
bombadier forward to do that instead of manning his aircraft? One wonders
how proficient ol' Art really was at his specialty if that was the case...

Brooks

>
>

George Z. Bush

February 28th 04, 05:33 AM

D. Strang wrote:
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.
>
> There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
> commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in WW#2.
>
>> The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
>> documented. Sadly.
>
> Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
> combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
> Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
> them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.

You call friendly fire an accident? If they got creamed, it was deliberate.
Unfortunately, the wrong target got hit.

But it was no accident....it was what they were aiming at.

George Z.

George Z. Bush

February 28th 04, 05:51 AM

D. Strang wrote:
> "ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.
>
> In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before about
> 1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined it
> after active duty.....

Oh, really? Lots of guys joined the National Guard in the '30s in order to do
something for the country without having to go away from home for very long
periods of time and to make a few extra bucks for the time they spent at it.
How do I know? A friend of mine did exactly that, and he wasn't the only guy in
his NG outfit. And yes, they were all activated in early '42 and were gone
until after the war was over.

You need to stop making so many definitive statements about stuff you know
nothing about.

> .....Most people took their draft, and ended up in Germany
> or Korea (and no one asked about a ****ing exit-strategy). Most served,
> got the clap, and were home to momma before anyone knew they were
> gone.

You know, the more you talk, the more I realize how little you know about those
days and what went on then. Maybe you can convince Viet Nam vets that you know
it all, but you can't convince us old farts who date back to before Korea and
WWII. You don't seem to know squat about those days, so I suspect you either
were still in diapers way back then, or maybe your Mama was still blowing your
nose for you to keep your upper lip from getting chapped.

There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but bull****ting the public is something
else. Why don't you give it a rest?

George Z.

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 05:54 AM

In article <abV%b.6216$m4.5326@okepread03>,
on Fri, 27 Feb 2004 22:55:31 -0600,
D. Strang attempted to say .....

> "Tank Fixer" > wrote
> >
> > Did I say they all had joined in the 1950's ? No, that some had.
>
> Actually, you said "many" had. Now you say "some." We're probably getting
> closer to the truth, that "very few" had.

Lots and lots, is that better ?
I only have my experiance with that unit.

I noticed you ignored my request for some national statistics you implied
you had.

Could it be you have none ?

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 05:55 AM

In article >,
on 28 Feb 2004 04:51:25 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: Tank Fixer
> >Date: 2/27/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >In article >,
> > on 27 Feb 2004 14:11:00 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >From: Tank Fixer
> >> >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >In article >,
> >> > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >> >
> >> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >> >From: Tank Fixer
> >> >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In article >,
> >> >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> >> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
> >whatever.
> >> >All
> >> >> >the
> >> >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being fired.
> >> >Hardly
> >> >> >the
> >> >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during 1942/43.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
> >penensula
> >> >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> >> >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> >> >
> >> >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
> >> >
> >> >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in the
> >> >early 70's ?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> As Colin Powell said:
> >> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> >> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> >> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> >> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> >> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
> >>
> >
> >
> >OK, so we know what the good general said.
> >
> >I was asking you however.
> >
> >
> I agree with General Powell.

Does your hatred for the Guard extend to those from WW2 ?

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Kevin Brooks

February 28th 04, 06:32 AM

"Tank Fixer" > wrote in message
k.net...
> In article >,
> on 28 Feb 2004 04:51:25 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
> > >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > >From: Tank Fixer
> > >Date: 2/27/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >In article >,
> > > on 27 Feb 2004 14:11:00 GMT,
> > > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > >
> > >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > >> >From: Tank Fixer
> > >> >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >Message-id: >
> > >> >
> > >> >In article >,
> > >> > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> > >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > >> >
> > >> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > >> >> >From: Tank Fixer
> > >> >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >> >Message-id: >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >In article >,
> > >> >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> > >> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > >> >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
> > >whatever.
> > >> >All
> > >> >> >the
> > >> >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being
fired.
> > >> >Hardly
> > >> >> >the
> > >> >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
1942/43.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
> > >penensula
> > >> >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> > >> >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> > >> >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> > >> >
> > >> >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
> > >> >
> > >> >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in
the
> > >> >early 70's ?
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> As Colin Powell said:
> > >> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> > >> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> > >> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> > >> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> > >> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their
country."
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > >OK, so we know what the good general said.
> > >
> > >I was asking you however.
> > >
> > >
> > I agree with General Powell.
>
> Does your hatred for the Guard extend to those from WW2 ?

He has already said it does, per his comment on 21 FEB in this newsgroup:

"Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and laughing stocks
for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to war, then go to
war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff. Tell a member of
the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great job the reserve is
doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and safe while he may
not live to see the end of this day."

Anybody want to bet that Art would not be willing to go to a reunion of
surviving Bataan Death March vets and tell them they were "pathetic jokes
and laughing stocks"? Or maybe one of the divisional reunions for the 29th
ID, 36th ID, 32nd ID, 28th ID, etc.? I doubt it. It is unbelieveable that
even after being corrected by numerous posters he clings to this strange
belief that Guardsmen and Reservists were doing weekend drills back home
during WWII...when in fact the Guard had been completely mobilized well
before he even got his sorry butt drafted ( I just noticed that in that same
message he indicated he was "called up the day he turned eighteen"...sounds
like a draftee to me, despite his repeated clamoring that he was a
"volunteer").

Brooks

>
>
> --
> When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
> variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Kevin Brooks

February 28th 04, 06:48 AM

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
> D. Strang wrote:
> > "ArtKramr" > wrote
> >>
> >> That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.
> >
> > In the narrow context of Vietnam before the lottery system. Before
about
> > 1965, no one joined the NG or Reserves out of civilian life, they joined
it
> > after active duty.....
>
> Oh, really? Lots of guys joined the National Guard in the '30s in order
to do
> something for the country without having to go away from home for very
long
> periods of time and to make a few extra bucks for the time they spent at
it.
> How do I know? A friend of mine did exactly that, and he wasn't the only
guy in
> his NG outfit. And yes, they were all activated in early '42 and were
gone
> until after the war was over.

No, the entire National Guard was mobilized during the period beginning in
September1940 through early spring of 1941, following congressional
authorization in August 1940. The congressional vote that kept them on
active duty beyond one year was decided by a single vote in August 1941,
something for which George Marshall had worked hard to make happen. Any
competent history of the US mobilization effort will verify this. There
essentially was *no* National Guard during the period following mobilization
and until the war ended--states had to instead rely upon other militia
organizations made up of those too old or too young to serve in the federal
military services. It took a great deal of effort to "recreate" the Guard
after the war.

>
> You need to stop making so many definitive statements about stuff you know
> nothing about.

Based upon your above SNAFU, you might want to take heed of your own advice.

<snip>

>
> There's nothing wrong with not knowing, but bull****ting the public is
something
> else. Why don't you give it a rest?

Again, take heed yourself...

Brooks

>
> George Z.
>
>

OXMORON1

February 28th 04, 07:14 AM

Art wrote:
>That was not my quote. It was made by General Colin Powell in his book.

Check back Art, the first time it appeared in this go round it did not appear
in quotation marks and you didn't attribute it to anyone in your message.
Only after you were called on it did you attrubute the words to Powell.
You still haven't admitted that it applied to a limited time frame not two plus
centuries if Militia.

Rick Clark

OXMORON1

February 28th 04, 07:27 AM

Got a question for you Art.
Name a politian who became President and had served in the National Guard?

Down

Down

Clue Field Artillery

And he was a Democrat also

He said among other quotes "Never kick a fresh turd on a warm day."

Harry S Truman was the guy.

And IIRC he used influence to get elected Captain of his battery. The story
goes that he called afew favors too .

Rick Clark

Cub Driver

February 28th 04, 10:17 AM

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 02:55:32 GMT, "Ed Majden" >
wrote:

> Why is the ANG being put down by so many?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Cub Driver

February 28th 04, 10:23 AM

>I'm not sure what time period you're talking about here, can you be more
>specific because, in my opinion, the US has never had a "sloppy, mamma's boy
>military"?

Mr. Kramer was referring to the 1st Marine Division that went from the
Kuwait border to east Baghdad in three weeks, "running and gunning" in
a manner that would have had Patton gibbering at the old folks' home.

You will find life more pleasant, and this newsgroup more manageable,
if you put Mr. Kramer in a kill-file.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 11:10 AM

>ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: (OXMORON1)
>Date: 2/27/04 11:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Got a question for you Art.
>Name a politian who became President and had served in the National Guard?
>
>Down
>
>
>Down
>
>
>
>
>
>Clue Field Artillery
>
>
>
>And he was a Democrat also
>
>
>
>He said among other quotes "Never kick a fresh turd on a warm day."
>
>
>
>Harry S Truman was the guy.
>
>And IIRC he used influence to get elected Captain of his battery. The story
>goes that he called afew favors too .
>
>Rick Clark

Yeah a lot of politicians went into the Guard. Like Bush. I guess you disagree
with Powell.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

BUFDRVR

February 28th 04, 01:29 PM

>You will find life more pleasant, and this newsgroup more manageable,
>if you put Mr. Kramer in a kill-file.
>

I don't kill file anyone, just choose to disregard their posts. In Kramer's
case, they're too comical and pathetic to ignore. I read his posts like someone
who's slowed down to look at a traffic accident.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Tarver Engineering

February 28th 04, 04:01 PM

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "D. Strang" > wrote in message
> news:41Q%b.6171$m4.4277@okepread03...
> > "ArtKramr" > wrote
> > >
> > > We were trained to iron discipline and obedience to orders.
> >
> > There were very few enlisted troops with high school diplomas, and those
> > commissioned sometimes only had a couple of years, and no degree in
WW#2.
> >
> > > The price of paid later for a sloppy momma's boy military is now well
> > > documented. Sadly.
> >
> > Not true. There were more people killed in WW#2 from accidents than
> > combat. The first thing that happened after Monty hit the beach in
> > Sicily, was a wave of US bombers out of Libya bombed the **** out of
> > them. I'd call that sloppy, and probably ****ing stupid.
>
> Hey, what about Malmedy? It was bad enough that Pieper pulled the machine
> gunning of PW's, but you also had the USAAF (inluding one raid by Art's
> beloved B-26's) hit the town not once but *twice* while it was in allied
> hands! Strangely, this would have been during the time when Art has
claimed
> he was sent forward to man the trenches--now why would the USAAF have sent
a
> bombadier forward to do that instead of manning his aircraft? One wonders
> how proficient ol' Art really was at his specialty if that was the case...

Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 06:15 PM

>ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/28/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time

>Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.

On what dates?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tarver Engineering

February 28th 04, 06:21 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/28/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.
>
> On what dates?

During the bulge.

Incompetent management.

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 06:29 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/28/04 10:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 2/28/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>
>> >Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.
>>
>> On what dates?
>
>During the bulge.
>
>Incompetent management.
>
>
The bulge was over a two week period. On EXACTLY what dates do you claim we hit
Malmedy.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tarver Engineering

February 28th 04, 06:31 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/28/04 10:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >Date: 2/28/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >>
> >> >Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.
> >>
> >> On what dates?
> >
> >During the bulge.
> >
> >Incompetent management.
> >
> >
> The bulge was over a two week period. On EXACTLY what dates do you claim
we hit
> Malmedy.

You can do your own news search old fool.

I am a National Guard alumni.

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 06:38 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/28/04 10:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 2/28/04 10:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >> >Date: 2/28/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >>
>> >> >Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.
>> >>
>> >> On what dates?
>> >
>> >During the bulge.
>> >
>> >Incompetent management.
>> >
>> >
>> The bulge was over a two week period. On EXACTLY what dates do you claim
>we hit
>> Malmedy.
>
>You can do your own news search old fool.
>
>I am a National Guard alumni.
>
>
And you are a ****ing liar.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 06:41 PM

In article >,
on Sat, 28 Feb 2004 01:32:37 -0500,
Kevin Brooks attempted to say .....

>
> "Tank Fixer" > wrote in message
> k.net...
> > In article >,
> > on 28 Feb 2004 04:51:25 GMT,
> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> >
> > > >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > > >From: Tank Fixer
> > > >Date: 2/27/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > > >Message-id: >
> > > >
> > > >In article >,
> > > > on 27 Feb 2004 14:11:00 GMT,
> > > > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > > >
> > > >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > > >> >From: Tank Fixer
> > > >> >Date: 2/26/04 11:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > > >> >Message-id: >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >In article >,
> > > >> > on 27 Feb 2004 03:49:51 GMT,
> > > >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> > > >> >> >From: Tank Fixer
> > > >> >> >Date: 2/26/04 7:46 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > > >> >> >Message-id: >
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >In article >,
> > > >> >> > on 26 Feb 2004 20:44:20 GMT,
> > > >> >> > ArtKramr attempted to say .....
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> >> >> "Liberated" ? As I remember it there was no German resistance
> > > >whatever.
> > > >> >All
> > > >> >> >the
> > > >> >> >> Germans had left and they just walked in without a shot being
> fired.
> > > >> >Hardly
> > > >> >> >the
> > > >> >> >> equivalent of landing on Omaha beach was it?. (sheesh)
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Yes, I guess your right.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >I mean the 41st Infantry had an easy time in New Guinea during
> 1942/43.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >Or that Provisional Tank battalion that ended up on the Bataan
> > > >penensula
> > > >> >> >in 1941 as infantry after they ran out of fuel.
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >> >I mean, they were just National Guard troops....
> > > >> >> >Not real soldiers, right Art ?
> > > >> >> >
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >>
> > > >> >> At least Bush wasn't hiding in those units right?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >No, he was flying a rather unforgiving aircraft.
> > > >> >
> > > >> >Or are you saying the USAF had lax standards for pilot training in
> the
> > > >> >early 70's ?
> > > >> >
> > > >> >
> > > >> As Colin Powell said:
> > > >> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> > > >> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> > > >> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> > > >> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> > > >> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their
> country."
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >OK, so we know what the good general said.
> > > >
> > > >I was asking you however.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > I agree with General Powell.
> >
> > Does your hatred for the Guard extend to those from WW2 ?
>
> He has already said it does, per his comment on 21 FEB in this newsgroup:
>
> "Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and laughing stocks
> for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to war, then go to
> war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff. Tell a member of
> the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great job the reserve is
> doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and safe while he may
> not live to see the end of this day."

I just want him to acknowledge it again. If he has the guts to.

>
> Anybody want to bet that Art would not be willing to go to a reunion of
> surviving Bataan Death March vets and tell them they were "pathetic jokes
> and laughing stocks"?

You mean the survivors of the 194th Provisional Tank Battalion ?

How about those members of the 148th Field Artilary who ended up on East
Timor assisting the Dutch. I'm not sure any of them got out.

> Or maybe one of the divisional reunions for the 29th
> ID, 36th ID, 32nd ID, 28th ID, etc.? I doubt it. It is unbelieveable that
> even after being corrected by numerous posters he clings to this strange
> belief that Guardsmen and Reservists were doing weekend drills back home
> during WWII...when in fact the Guard had been completely mobilized well
> before he even got his sorry butt drafted ( I just noticed that in that same
> message he indicated he was "called up the day he turned eighteen"...sounds
> like a draftee to me, despite his repeated clamoring that he was a
> "volunteer").

Or the 41st ID or for any of the other National Guard units called up in
1940.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Tarver Engineering

February 28th 04, 06:41 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/28/04 10:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >Date: 2/28/04 10:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> >ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
> >> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >> >Date: 2/28/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >>
> >> >> >Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.
> >> >>
> >> >> On what dates?
> >> >
> >> >During the bulge.
> >> >
> >> >Incompetent management.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> The bulge was over a two week period. On EXACTLY what dates do you
claim
> >we hit
> >> Malmedy.
> >
> >You can do your own news search old fool.
> >
> >I am a National Guard alumni.
> >
> >
> And you are a ****ing liar.

The information is even part of a history channel program, with video of the
crumbled building. The 344th bombed a building occupied by allied troops
and then bombed the location again as rescuers dug out the injured.
fortunately noone was killed.

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 06:43 PM

>Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/28/04 10:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 2/28/04 10:31 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >> >Date: 2/28/04 10:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> >> >ubject: Re: Is it easier now?
>> >> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >> >> >Date: 2/28/04 8:01 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Yes, it was the 344th that bombed Malmedy twice.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On what dates?
>> >> >
>> >> >During the bulge.
>> >> >
>> >> >Incompetent management.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> The bulge was over a two week period. On EXACTLY what dates do you
>claim
>> >we hit
>> >> Malmedy.
>> >
>> >You can do your own news search old fool.
>> >
>> >I am a National Guard alumni.
>> >
>> >
>> And you are a ****ing liar.
>
>The information is even part of a history channel program, with video of the
>crumbled building. The 344th bombed a building occupied by allied troops
>and then bombed the location again as rescuers dug out the injured.
>fortunately noone was killed.
>
>

What was the name of the program? when did it air? Liar.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

OXMORON1

February 28th 04, 10:22 PM

Art flustered and spit out:
>Yeah a lot of politicians went into the Guard. Like Bush. I guess you
>disagree
>with Powell.

Powell was talking about a specific time period, not over three centuries of
North American Militia history.
There were some people hiding out in the Militia in the period in question, but
not all! Most were professional patriotic people doing their part. You are
painting all reservists of more than three centuries of North American history
inaccurately and unfairly.
You refuse to acknowledge any other view except your own as impossible,
traitorous and a lie.

Rick Clark
P.S.
I guess you know that you can never go to Texas again. You have just called the
Texas Rangers a bunch of Wussies also, they started out as Militia/Minutemen.

Jack

February 29th 04, 02:33 AM

On 2/28/04 5:10 AM, in article ,
"ArtKramr" > wrote:

> Yeah a lot of politicians went into the Guard. Like Bush. I guess you disagree
> with Powell.

Yes it is easier now, as it is anytime we don't have to fight an all-out war
that requires total mobilization. But talk to LBJ about your complaints re
the guard. In fact, if you do dig him up, kick his ass once for me.

I disagree that Powell would have meant to include the ANG in general and
aircrew members in particular, in such a statement. If he did intend it, I
believe that, like too many Army types, he didn't really understand either
the USAF or the ANG. Given the historical context, which has been provided
repeatedly here and elsewhere and which you cannot understand or choose to
ignore, the Army Guard in the VN war years had a very different character
from that of the Air Guard.

If NOBODY could have avoided serving in some manner during those years, that
would have been better. If only volunteers had been used in SEA it would
have been best -- and an entirely different war, with no significant social
repercussions, and a hell of a lot greater likelihood of either success or a
far earlier peace through diplomatic compromise.

Sorry we didn't have your war to fight in, Art. We did pretty well,
considering the "leadership" we had to work with, in the war we did have. If
their decision was not to send Bush's unit, nor to allow pilots with less
than 500 hours to go to SEA on an individual basis, that's nobody's fault
but the Whitehouse'.

No one complains about Bob Hope's kid going into the CA ANG in 1965, why
bitch about GHWBush's kid going into the TX ANG when the war was, for the
USA, in its winding-down phase? I trust your vision through the Norden was
more clear in 1944 than it is when you read the newspaper today, because you
are off-target.

Perhaps you are reticent to take on Dubya where it matters, which is in his
ability to lead the Nation through some tough times in the proper direction.
But if you want to stick with the patriotic behavior thing, then fine --
stand by for a tidal wave which will wash Kerry right off the platform.

Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~