If yiu didn't fight in WW II..... [Archive]

Mike Marron

February 27th 04, 01:48 AM

> (ArtKramr) wrote:

>If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
>Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
>regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

I've said it before on this NG that I wouldn't mind flying a Spad with
the Flying Circus over St. Mihiel or an Me-109 or Fw-190 on the
Eastern Front or a Stuka over Poland and/or France in '38-'39 or a
Hurricane or a Spit over the English Channel during the summer of 1940
or an F-6F over the South Pacific during the Marianas Turkey Shoot or
a shark-mouthed P-40 over Paoshan or a Thud in 'Nam or an Israeli
F-15C in the Bekka Valley or....

But do I have any regrets? Nah....

Trikes Rule baby!

D. Strang

February 27th 04, 01:56 AM

> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?

What's a "had?" You mean my penis?

>Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not?

There was a lot of lonely women left back in the USA! Nah! I'd rather be
getting the clean stuff, then the nasty old pot-belly girls you guys had to share...

> Any regrets at having missed it?

Nope.

> Anyone?

I probably would have liked to sit on the beach with one of those
gorgeous Italian babes!

Ed Majden

February 27th 04, 02:12 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
something?
> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
not? Any
> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>
Glamorizing war is for recruiting posters and the Hollywood movie
industry. I was born in 1939 so that's why the war may have started. I
guess the Yank war didn't start until 1941. Too young for Korea also but I
spent nearly 28 years in the RCAF/CAF with Norad and NATO squadrons as a
tech. Do I miss going to war? Hell NO! Only the innocent get killed and
crippled where the people responsible for the wars in most cases sit back
and make money from it. WWII was a war that had to be fought and won
however! Many of my relatives and friends were in the thick of it. Sadly
there are fewer of them left as time marches on.
Ed

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 02:21 AM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: "Sunny"
>Date: 2/26/04 5:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
>something?
>
>No
>
>> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
>not? Any
>> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>
>Glad I wasn't there ( 8 years old when it ended)
>Served for 36 years in the Army though (Infantry) which included time on the
>two way rifle range.
>Do you have any regrets at missing the Wars since WW2 Art ?
>
>

Nope.But in the last 60 years I constantly hear from guys who tell me how
lucky I was to be there and how they wished they had been there with us.
I was just wondering how those in this NG feel about that.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tank Fixer

February 27th 04, 03:49 AM

In article >,
on 27 Feb 2004 01:25:47 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

Given that I wasn't alive then ?

Or that I volunteered direct out of high school in the 1970's and chose
infantry and Korea ?

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Pete

February 27th 04, 04:10 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
something?
> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
not? Any
> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

Not many are old enough to have had a choice.

Do you miss not having been in Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, or the myriad places
where the Cold War was fought?

Pete

Brian Colwell

February 27th 04, 05:11 AM

"Ed Majden" > wrote in message
news:LIx%b.606014$JQ1.199497@pd7tw1no...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
> something?
> > Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
> not? Any
> > regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
> >
> Glamorizing war is for recruiting posters and the Hollywood movie
> industry. I was born in 1939 so that's why the war may have started. I
> guess the Yank war didn't start until 1941. Too young for Korea also but I
> spent nearly 28 years in the RCAF/CAF with Norad and NATO squadrons as a
> tech. Do I miss going to war? Hell NO! Only the innocent get killed and
> crippled where the people responsible for the wars in most cases sit back
> and make money from it. WWII was a war that had to be fought and won
> however! Many of my relatives and friends were in the thick of it. Sadly
> there are fewer of them left as time marches on.
> Ed
>
As they say, Old men start wars and young men fight them !!

BMC

B2431

February 27th 04, 06:29 AM

>From: "Tarver Engineering"

>
>I was in the National Guard doing NORAD duty at ground zero, so I don't
>believe I missed anything.
>
Congratulations, you were on or near a major city, military base or site,
industrial complex, government center etc. By george, so were the vast majority
of the U.S. population. Wow, look at all them ground zeros. I guess that mean
you were front line duty? Was it rough duty?

You were just one of thousands of wrench benders. So was I.

Want to compare combat duty? I can tell you about my time in AF spec ops or my
participation in the South East Asia War Games and you can tell me..um...
well.. I guess you can tell me about the fights you had with the B girls. Tell
me, did you win any?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Dave Kearton

February 27th 04, 07:25 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
| If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
something?
| Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
not? Any
| regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
|
|
| Arthur Kramer
| 344th BG 494th BS
| England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
| Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
| http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
|

I guess if I had to use up one of my 3 wishes on WWII Art, it would be for
Adolf Hitler to slip over in the bath and break his neck, some time in the
early '20s.

It would make a good movie and I'd enjoy sitting in the front row with all
my absent relatives and enjoying the special effects.

Glad you were there, gladder you came home.

Cheers

Dave Kearton

Ragnar

February 27th 04, 08:14 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
something?

I was born in 1963. Kind of assinine to feel that I "missed" something that
was over before I was borne.

Cub Driver

February 27th 04, 08:56 AM

>I was born in 1963. Kind of assinine to feel that I "missed" something that
>was over before I was borne.

Then how do you explain the fascination with WWII aircraft and flight
sims?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

February 27th 04, 09:53 AM

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
>Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
>regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

Having heard the descriptions of that war from my father (coast defence
during summer 1940, including Cromwell, Atlantic escorts 1940-1943,
channel 1943-44, south atlantic escorts 1944-45) and some of his
contemporaries (whose service included variously intruder missions over
France in Beaufighters, tanks in France in 1940, the desert and Italy,
motor gunboats in the channel and the Adriatic, minesweepers in the
channel and flying fulmars over the western desert, then Corsairs in
the far east) I'm *profoundly* glad I missed it. I can see the scars it
left on people. I'm very glad that my generation didn't have to go through
that (and I think my parents generation are mainly glad that they saved
their children and grandchildren from having to do it).
That said, my parents' generation were faced with either doing something
about a truely horrible threat (though without knowing - then - quite
how horrible it was) or having to live under it. If I'd been faced with
the same situation I can only hope I might have done as well. I'm not
sure I would, but then maybe neither were they. I'm very glad to have been
spared that.
The tragedy - in this country at least (.uk) - is the way part of that
generation's legacy - the country they built *after* they came home -
has been squandered by my generation.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

Presidente Alcazar

February 27th 04, 11:15 AM

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 03:56:47 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>>I was born in 1963. Kind of assinine to feel that I "missed" something that
>>was over before I was borne.
>
>Then how do you explain the fascination with WWII aircraft and flight
>sims?

I own a lot of books on medieval history. Doesn't mean I have any
desire to participate in the Black Death on a personal level, nor that
I feel I missed out on anything by not dying of pneumonic plague.

Gavin Bailey

Stephen Harding

February 27th 04, 11:48 AM

ArtKramr wrote:

> Nope.But in the last 60 years I constantly hear from guys who tell me how
> lucky I was to be there and how they wished they had been there with us.
> I was just wondering how those in this NG feel about that.

Modern desires to be a part of the WWII effort might be
aided in knowing what the outcome was! Would many Germans
or Japanese want to be a part of this fight knowing how it
ended or the fuller context of the war?

However, of all the wars fought during American history,
I'd say the Revolution, Civil War (Union) and WWII seem
most worthy of participation. If you're going to have to
be involved in a war, those are the ones I'd "choose" to
be a part of. (I think the current Iraqi effort has some
attractiveness too, at least in what it would like to
accomplish).

One thing that makes WWII "attractive" to those looking
back (certainly myself), is the way the nation seemed so
united. No one claiming FDR lacked military experience and
was incompetent to lead; FDR was just a rich guy letting
someone else provide the blood; that American policies
were the cause of the Japanese attack (they were); the
whole affair was just to get the US out of depression and
profits for corporations, ad infinitum.

Perhaps there was that, but it seemed drowned out by people
resolved to destroy the enemy no matter the cost. A broad
popular belief that it was a just cause. Truly a nation
working in lock step to accomplish a goal.

SMH

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 01:43 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Stephen Harding
>Date: 2/27/04 3:48 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> Nope.But in the last 60 years I constantly hear from guys who tell me how
>> lucky I was to be there and how they wished they had been there with us.
>> I was just wondering how those in this NG feel about that.
>
>Modern desires to be a part of the WWII effort might be
>aided in knowing what the outcome was! Would many Germans
>or Japanese want to be a part of this fight knowing how it
>ended or the fuller context of the war?
>
>However, of all the wars fought during American history,
>I'd say the Revolution, Civil War (Union) and WWII seem
>most worthy of participation. If you're going to have to
>be involved in a war, those are the ones I'd "choose" to
>be a part of. (I think the current Iraqi effort has some
>attractiveness too, at least in what it would like to
>accomplish).
>
>One thing that makes WWII "attractive" to those looking
>back (certainly myself), is the way the nation seemed so
>united. No one claiming FDR lacked military experience and
>was incompetent to lead; FDR was just a rich guy letting
>someone else provide the blood; that American policies
>were the cause of the Japanese attack (they were); the
>whole affair was just to get the US out of depression and
>profits for corporations, ad infinitum.
>
>Perhaps there was that, but it seemed drowned out by people
>resolved to destroy the enemy no matter the cost. A broad
>popular belief that it was a just cause. Truly a nation
>working in lock step to accomplish a goal.
>
>
>SMH
>

Most meaningful post on this subject so far. Thank you.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 01:47 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: "Dave Kearton"
>Date: 2/26/04 11:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>| If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
>something?
>| Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
>not? Any
>| regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>|
>|
>| Arthur Kramer
>| 344th BG 494th BS
>| England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>| Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>| http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>|
>
>
>
>
>I guess if I had to use up one of my 3 wishes on WWII Art, it would be for
>Adolf Hitler to slip over in the bath and break his neck, some time in the
>early '20s.
>
>
>It would make a good movie and I'd enjoy sitting in the front row with all
>my absent relatives and enjoying the special effects.
>
>
>
>Glad you were there, gladder you came home.
>
>
>
Thank you. May we never forget absent friends.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 02:12 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 2/26/04 10:29 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>
>>
>>I was in the National Guard doing NORAD duty at ground zero, so I don't
>>believe I missed anything.
>>
>Congratulations, you were on or near a major city, military base or site,
>industrial complex, government center etc. By george, so were the vast
>majority
>of the U.S. population. Wow, look at all them ground zeros. I guess that mean
>you were front line duty? Was it rough duty?
>
> You were just one of thousands of wrench benders. So was I.
>
>Want to compare combat duty? I can tell you about my time in AF spec ops or
>my
>participation in the South East Asia War Games and you can tell me..um...
>well.. I guess you can tell me about the fights you had with the B girls.
>Tell
>me, did you win any?
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

As Colin Powell said:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 02:27 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 2/27/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
>something?
>>Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not?
>Any
>>regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>
>Having heard the descriptions of that war from my father (coast defence
>during summer 1940, including Cromwell, Atlantic escorts 1940-1943,
>channel 1943-44, south atlantic escorts 1944-45) and some of his
>contemporaries (whose service included variously intruder missions over
>France in Beaufighters, tanks in France in 1940, the desert and Italy,
>motor gunboats in the channel and the Adriatic, minesweepers in the
>channel and flying fulmars over the western desert, then Corsairs in
>the far east) I'm *profoundly* glad I missed it. I can see the scars it
>left on people. I'm very glad that my generation didn't have to go through
>that (and I think my parents generation are mainly glad that they saved
>their children and grandchildren from having to do it).
>That said, my parents' generation were faced with either doing something
>about a truely horrible threat (though without knowing - then - quite
>how horrible it was) or having to live under it. If I'd been faced with
>the same situation I can only hope I might have done as well. I'm not
>sure I would, but then maybe neither were they. I'm very glad to have been
>spared that.
>The tragedy - in this country at least (.uk) - is the way part of that
>generation's legacy - the country they built *after* they came home -
>has been squandered by my generation.
>
>--
>Andy Breen ~

Very thoughtful post Andy. Many I have heard from over the last 60 years
expressed pretty much what you did. It often just starts with they wished they
had been there with us. It was a war worth fighting and their lives would have
been a bit more worthwhile had they fought that good fight. Then many question
if they could have done as well as we did if they were there with us. I always
assure them that they would have done exactly as we did had they been there
alongside us, And I believe that...
But I think that the sense of ultimate adventure and achievement has a lot to
do with it. The war was the ultimate event in the 20th cenntury, Many are sorry
they missed it,

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

February 27th 04, 03:05 PM

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>>Date: 2/27/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>In article >,
>>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>>If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
>>something?
>>>Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not?
>>Any
>>>regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>>That said, my parents' generation were faced with either doing something
>>about a truely horrible threat (though without knowing - then - quite
>>how horrible it was) or having to live under it. If I'd been faced with
>>the same situation I can only hope I might have done as well. I'm not
>>sure I would, but then maybe neither were they. I'm very glad to have been
>>spared that.

>Very thoughtful post Andy. Many I have heard from over the last 60 years
>expressed pretty much what you did. It often just starts with they wished they
>had been there with us. It was a war worth fighting and their lives would have

Thanks for the feedbacck, Art. It's something I've been thinking about
more than usual recently - my father having been very seriously ill
over the last week (he's almost completely recovered now - like many
of his generation he's a tough guy, in spite of having had a tough time).

Hope you won't mind me making a suggestion - I've been following the
accounts you've been putting up on your web-space (fascinating stuff):
Have you considered offering them to one of the archives for long-term
preservation (not that I'm not hoping you'll be with us for many years to
come!). The 2nd World War Experience Centre seems to be a rather good one,
and they are on the look-out for a larger US presence there.

http://www.war-experience.org/

I had some dealings with them when they put some stuff of my father's
up on the site - editing it into shape and so on - and they seemed
very good.

It's important that the next generation knows just what your generation
went through - and what they did for us.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 03:13 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 2/27/04 7:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>>>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>>>Date: 2/27/04 1:53 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
>>>In article >,
>>>ArtKramr > wrote:
>>>>If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
>>>something?
>>>>Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than
>not?
>>>Any
>>>>regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>>>That said, my parents' generation were faced with either doing something
>>>about a truely horrible threat (though without knowing - then - quite
>>>how horrible it was) or having to live under it. If I'd been faced with
>>>the same situation I can only hope I might have done as well. I'm not
>>>sure I would, but then maybe neither were they. I'm very glad to have been
>>>spared that.
>
>>Very thoughtful post Andy. Many I have heard from over the last 60 years
>>expressed pretty much what you did. It often just starts with they wished
>they
>>had been there with us. It was a war worth fighting and their lives would
>have
>
>Thanks for the feedbacck, Art. It's something I've been thinking about
>more than usual recently - my father having been very seriously ill
>over the last week (he's almost completely recovered now - like many
>of his generation he's a tough guy, in spite of having had a tough time).
>
>Hope you won't mind me making a suggestion - I've been following the
>accounts you've been putting up on your web-space (fascinating stuff):
>Have you considered offering them to one of the archives for long-term
>preservation (not that I'm not hoping you'll be with us for many years to
>come!). The 2nd World War Experience Centre seems to be a rather good one,
>and they are on the look-out for a larger US presence there.
>
>http://www.war-experience.org/
>
>I had some dealings with them when they put some stuff of my father's
>up on the site - editing it into shape and so on - and they seemed
>very good.
>
>It's important that the next generation knows just what your generation
>went through - and what they did for us.
>
>--
>Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
> http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
> "Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
> and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)
>

I have been thinking about that but I am not quite finished with it yet. More
to come. But any archive can simply download it can't they? BTW, Regards to
Mrs. Prothero. (:->))

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

February 27th 04, 03:19 PM

"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" > wrote in message
...

<snip>

>
> It's important that the next generation knows just what your generation
> went through - and what they did for us.

And you think the "historical" input of a clown who cannot acknowledge that
the entire national Guard was mobilized and a goodly chunk of them already
were in the fight when he graduated from high school, and goes on to lable
those same personnel as "shirkers", has any real value? A guy who makes the
astonishing claim (repeatedly) that his outfit *never* missed its designated
target, despite the clear evidence that such results would have been
impossible during that time period? One who disparages the efforts of those
in his generation who served honorably and went where they were told, and
did what they were instructed to do, as being somehow of less value than his
own efforts? Sorry, but all of that adds up to a rather biased and
untrustworthy source IMO.

Brooks

>
> --
> Andy Breen ~

Ragnar

February 27th 04, 03:20 PM

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >I was born in 1963. Kind of assinine to feel that I "missed" something
that
> >was over before I was borne.
>
> Then how do you explain the fascination with WWII aircraft and flight
> sims?

Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a "golden
age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil facing
off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you get
the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.

Tarver Engineering

February 27th 04, 03:21 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

>
> As Colin Powell said:
>
> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

You are such an insulting old ****, Art.

Without the Guard, you would be dead.

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 03:25 PM

>ubject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/27/04 7:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> As Colin Powell said:
>>
>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>
>You are such an insulting old ****, Art.
>
>Without the Guard, you would be dead.
>
>
Colin Powell said it, Not me. I guess he is the insulting old ****. Right?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

February 27th 04, 03:36 PM

In article >,
ArtKramr > wrote:
>>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>>Hope you won't mind me making a suggestion - I've been following the
>>accounts you've been putting up on your web-space (fascinating stuff):
>>Have you considered offering them to one of the archives for long-term
>>preservation (not that I'm not hoping you'll be with us for many years to

>I have been thinking about that but I am not quite finished with it yet. More
>to come. But any archive can simply download it can't they? BTW, Regards to

I think this lot only do it by permission - might be worth dropping them
an e-mail when you're satisfied with it though. Just a suggestion.

>Mrs. Prothero. (:->))

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

Tarver Engineering

February 27th 04, 03:37 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >ubject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/27/04 7:21 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >>
> >> As Colin Powell said:
> >>
> >> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> >> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> >> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> >> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> >> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
> >
> >You are such an insulting old ****, Art.
> >
> >Without the Guard, you would be dead.

> Colin Powell said it, Not me. I guess he is the insulting old ****.
Right?

Powell was refering to JFK's war and LBJ's failure to call up the National
Guard.

Without the Guard, you would be dead, Art.

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 03:40 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN)
>Date: 2/27/04 7:36 AM Pacific Standard Time

>I think this lot only do it by permission - might be worth dropping them
>an e-mail when you're satisfied with it though. Just a suggestion.
>
>>Mrs. Prothero. (:->))
>

I contacted them as soon as I got your post. I'll let you know when I get a
reply. Thanks for your help and interest..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tex Houston

February 27th 04, 03:47 PM

"Ragnar" > wrote in message
...

> Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a "golden
> age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil facing
> off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you get
> the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
> instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.

Surely you jest. All war is an abomination and there is nothing "pure"
about it. You do what you have to do in a war and move on.

Tex Houston

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 03:53 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: "Tex Houston"
>Date: 2/27/04 7:47 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Ragnar" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a "golden
>> age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil facing
>> off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you get
>> the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
>> instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.
>
> Surely you jest. All war is an abomination and there is nothing "pure"
>about it. You do what you have to do in a war and move on.
>
>Tex Houston
>
>
AH a voice of reality.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

John

February 27th 04, 04:08 PM

ArtKramr wrote:

> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>
> Arthur Kramer

No regrets, Each era has its time..
someday history will be just that, History,
and hopefully learned & may it never be repeated.
101st Airborne (65-68)

George Z. Bush

February 27th 04, 04:14 PM

I was born in 1923 and, when I was a kid, I was hugely interested in everything
I could get my hands on about WWI. To this day, I can probably dredge up
details about various land battles that today's youngsters don't even have a
clue about.

George Z.

Ragnar wrote:
> "Cub Driver" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>>> I was born in 1963. Kind of assinine to feel that I "missed" something that
>>> was over before I was borne.
>>
>> Then how do you explain the fascination with WWII aircraft and flight
>> sims?
>
> Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a "golden
> age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil facing
> off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you get
> the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
> instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.

OXMORON1

February 27th 04, 04:30 PM

Art wrote:
> Colin Powell said it, Not me. I guess he is the insulting old ****. Right?
>

Art, you have been asked to consider and clarify the time period that Powell
was talking about and you refuse to do so.
You are painting a couple of hundred years of the Militia with one broad stroke
(based on Powell's referal IIRC to a brief time frame of about 6 to 10 years).
The fact that some people (some not all) used the Guard as an avoidance of what
they considered an idiotic war is insulting to a lot of people who did their
job.
I wouldn't call you an insulting old f#*k, but at times you can be a
belligerent ass.
This time you are being a belligerent ass in the first degree.
And yes contacts help even in the advertizing business. You ever use any
influence? Ever call your Senator or Representative? Ever ask for a favor?
Next time I am going to ask for a clerk's job in MACV HQ or go for Club officer
at the local aerodrome.

Rick Clark
MFE

Presidente Alcazar

February 27th 04, 04:47 PM

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:19:56 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

>And you think the "historical" input of a clown who cannot acknowledge that
>the entire national Guard was mobilized and a goodly chunk of them already
>were in the fight when he graduated from high school, and goes on to lable
>those same personnel as "shirkers", has any real value? A guy who makes the
>astonishing claim (repeatedly) that his outfit *never* missed its designated
>target, despite the clear evidence that such results would have been
>impossible during that time period? One who disparages the efforts of those
>in his generation who served honorably and went where they were told, and
>did what they were instructed to do, as being somehow of less value than his
>own efforts? Sorry, but all of that adds up to a rather biased and
>untrustworthy source IMO.

I don't disagree with all of your criticisms - he seems happy enough
to denigrate others and seems to lack the intellectual honesty to
apply the rather intolerant historical standards he applies to others
to himself, but on the other hand, warts and all, his views of his own
experience are important historical information, and should be
preserved.

His personal contribution to WW2 exists independently of all the
ephemeral usenet bitching, even when he is a primary instigator of the
same bitching.

Gavin Bailey

Tarver Engineering

February 27th 04, 05:33 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

> AH a voice of reality.

The troops is Iraq and Afghanistan are America's greatest generation.

Tarver Engineering

February 27th 04, 05:33 PM

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
> I was born in 1923 and, when I was a kid, I was hugely interested in
everything
> I could get my hands on about WWI. To this day, I can probably dredge up
> details about various land battles that today's youngsters don't even have
a
> clue about.

Identical to Art's post 1945 knowledge.

Jeb Hoge

February 27th 04, 05:55 PM

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

I think I understand the onus of this question, and why people (as Art
mentioned) tell him "I wish I coulda been there". It's sort of the
latent desire to have been involved in a period of human strife that
was a turning point in history, brought on by some sort of deficit in
things to feel macho about. And I don't say that in derision, but it
is (it HAS to be) based in that Hollywood vision of what that war was
like, horrors and all. Take "Band Of Brothers" on HBO...the simple
title induces visions of quietly being heroes for each other in the
fields and villages against a common enemy. Men who weren't a part of
that (in any war, from WWII to Vietnam to today's conflicts) sometimes
wonder how they'd handle that situation, and I think it's safe to say
some think a little more highly of themselves than might be warranted.

Me personally, I can't say that I regret not having taken fire for my
country. If she asked, I would have, but she didn't, and my life's
course didn't steer me that way. But I honor those who did.

ArtKramr

February 27th 04, 05:58 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: (Jeb Hoge)
>Date: 2/27/04 9:55 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote in message
>...
>> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed
>something?
>> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not?
>Any
>> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>
>I think I understand the onus of this question, and why people (as Art
>mentioned) tell him "I wish I coulda been there". It's sort of the
>latent desire to have been involved in a period of human strife that
>was a turning point in history, brought on by some sort of deficit in
>things to feel macho about. And I don't say that in derision, but it
>is (it HAS to be) based in that Hollywood vision of what that war was
>like, horrors and all. Take "Band Of Brothers" on HBO...the simple
>title induces visions of quietly being heroes for each other in the
>fields and villages against a common enemy. Men who weren't a part of
>that (in any war, from WWII to Vietnam to today's conflicts) sometimes
>wonder how they'd handle that situation, and I think it's safe to say
>some think a little more highly of themselves than might be warranted.
>
>Me personally, I can't say that I regret not having taken fire for my
>country. If she asked, I would have, but she didn't, and my life's
>course didn't steer me that way. But I honor those who did.
>

Thank you. Well said. Honest and forthright.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Howard Berkowitz

February 27th 04, 08:37 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 03:56:47 -0500, Cub Driver
> > wrote:
>
> >>I was born in 1963. Kind of assinine to feel that I "missed" something
> >>that
> >>was over before I was borne.
> >
> >Then how do you explain the fascination with WWII aircraft and flight
> >sims?
>
> I own a lot of books on medieval history. Doesn't mean I have any
> desire to participate in the Black Death on a personal level, nor that
> I feel I missed out on anything by not dying of pneumonic plague.
>

Nice insight. While I've worked in biohazard hot labs, I never worked
specifically with Yersinia pestis (cause of plague). Other nasty
things, including some that have been weaponized, yes.

It's a lot better feeling to know that I could recognize plague [1] and
how to treat it. Lots of good what-if stories where an advanced aircraft
gets sent back in time -- fewer about medical supplies and the necessary
knowledge going back.

[1] Or misrecognize it, but it was a confusing enough case that the first
specialist called in at least did a doubletake. I had called for
help, as the on-duty medical tech, because while I knew bubonic
plague was unlikely in my geographic area, as opposed to the American
Southwest where it does show up periodically, this is NOT something
that you guess about.

Turned out that the patient had bad acne, with a number of especially
dark purple pimples. He had just gotten a very bad sunburn with
blisters, and the liquid-filled blisters on top of pimples served
as magnifiers -- they did look somewhat like the characteristic skin
buboes of plague. His fever was due to overheating.

Kevin Brooks

February 27th 04, 08:44 PM

"Presidente Alcazar" > wrote in
message ...
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 10:19:56 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> >And you think the "historical" input of a clown who cannot acknowledge
that
> >the entire national Guard was mobilized and a goodly chunk of them
already
> >were in the fight when he graduated from high school, and goes on to
lable
> >those same personnel as "shirkers", has any real value? A guy who makes
the
> >astonishing claim (repeatedly) that his outfit *never* missed its
designated
> >target, despite the clear evidence that such results would have been
> >impossible during that time period? One who disparages the efforts of
those
> >in his generation who served honorably and went where they were told, and
> >did what they were instructed to do, as being somehow of less value than
his
> >own efforts? Sorry, but all of that adds up to a rather biased and
> >untrustworthy source IMO.
>
> I don't disagree with all of your criticisms - he seems happy enough
> to denigrate others and seems to lack the intellectual honesty to
> apply the rather intolerant historical standards he applies to others
> to himself, but on the other hand, warts and all, his views of his own
> experience are important historical information, and should be
> preserved.
>
> His personal contribution to WW2 exists independently of all the
> ephemeral usenet bitching, even when he is a primary instigator of the
> same bitching.

Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict. Had that been the case
the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
out.

Brooks

>
> Gavin Bailey
>

Ragnar

February 27th 04, 10:45 PM

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ragnar" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a
"golden
> > age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil
facing
> > off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you
get
> > the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
> > instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.
>
> Surely you jest. All war is an abomination and there is nothing "pure"
> about it. You do what you have to do in a war and move on.
>

I merely repeat what various commentators and civilians have said. I have
heard WW2 called the "last good war" many times, almost always by people who
don't have degrees in history or who have never been shot at.

D. Strang

February 27th 04, 10:46 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote
>
> As Colin Powell said:
>
> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."

Only a black man would think like that.

D. Strang

February 27th 04, 10:51 PM

Yea Baby! What was it like when the 32 Ford showed up at the dealership?

"George Z. Bush" > wrote
>
> I was born in 1923 and, when I was a kid, I was hugely interested in everything
> I could get my hands on about WWI. To this day, I can probably dredge up
> details about various land battles that today's youngsters don't even have a
> clue about.
>
> George Z.

Dave Kearton

February 27th 04, 11:17 PM

George Z. Bush

February 28th 04, 05:26 AM

I was a little too young to care much about cars in those days. Not only that,
but there was a depression going on and my family couldn't afford the $300 or
$400 that one of those would have cost.

Yeah, I know. You're just funnin' me, and that's OK too. There's still a
helluva lot that went on that we old farts can remember that you "young" pups
don't know squat about.......Baby!

Smile.....you're on Candid Camera. (*-*)))

George Z.

D. Strang wrote:
> Yea Baby! What was it like when the 32 Ford showed up at the dealership?
>
> "George Z. Bush" > wrote
>>
>> I was born in 1923 and, when I was a kid, I was hugely interested in
>> everything I could get my hands on about WWI. To this day, I can probably
>> dredge up details about various land battles that today's youngsters don't
>> even have a clue about.
>>
>> George Z.

George Z. Bush

February 28th 04, 05:30 AM

Dave Kearton wrote:
> "Ragnar" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "Tex Houston" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "Ragnar" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>
>>>> Most people involved with those activities are trying to relive a "golden
>>>> age" of some sort. WW2 was the last "pure" war, with good and evil facing
>>>> off in a fight to the finish (yes, the Soviets weren't "good", but you get
>>>> the idea). Today's world is largely unsatisfactory to some people, and
>>>> instead of working to make it better, they try to relive the past.
>>>
>>> Surely you jest. All war is an abomination and there is nothing "pure"
>>> about it. You do what you have to do in a war and move on.
>>>
>>
>> I merely repeat what various commentators and civilians have said. I have
>> heard WW2 called the "last good war" many times, almost always by people who
>> don't have degrees in history or who have never been shot at.

> Which is probably why the Korean conflict is often described as the
> 'forgotten war'

I've heard WWII called the "last good war" also but, as was suggested, anyone
who fought in one knows that "war" and "good" are two words that oughtn't be
used in the same sentence. I think the phrase is used mostly in the context
that very very few Americans had any doubts about why we were in it and you
rarely, if ever, heard any arguments about it.

George Z.

Presidente Alcazar

February 28th 04, 10:42 AM

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:38 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

>Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
>hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
>that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
>Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict.

Sure, but then this just means he doesn't have the breadth of
character to express any objectivity about his experiences in this
forum. That's all.

>Had that been the case
>the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
>level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
>claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
>out.

Of course. He can still take pride in the efforts and achievements he
participated in, even if he's unable to take into account a reasonable
sense of proportion. Being a WW2 veteran doesn't automatically mean
that he's infallible or invest his personality with any external
benefit.

Gavin Bailey

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 11:52 AM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Presidente Alcazar
>Date: 2/28/04 2:42 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 15:44:38 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:
>
>>Even his personal stories are suspect when he repeatedly comes out with such
>>hogwash as "we never missed our target". He has claimed accuracy rivaling
>>that which is attained by PGM's, and surpassing that acheived by folks like
>>Ed with their F-105's during the Vietnam conflict.
>
>Sure, but then this just means he doesn't have the breadth of
>character to express any objectivity about his experiences in this
>forum. That's all.
>
>>Had that been the case
>>the B-26 Marauder would have lasted a lot longer in service than it did. No
>>level bomber (or for that matter dive bomber), or unit of same, of WWII can
>>claim to have never failed to have hit their target--the USSBS bears that
>>out.
>
>Of course. He can still take pride in the efforts and achievements he
>participated in, even if he's unable to take into account a reasonable
>sense of proportion. Being a WW2 veteran doesn't automatically mean
>that he's infallible or invest his personality with any external
>benefit.
>
>Gavin Bailey
>

Gavin,

The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy bombers
working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near point
blank accuracy. A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
operations., When a target ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TAKEN OUT NOW, THEY DIDN'T SEND
IN B-17'S WORKING FROM 22,000 FEET. THEY SENT IN MARAUDERS FROM 10,000 FEET.
The Bridge at Arnhem was a case in point where a target had to be taken our
immediately where failure was intolerable.We did that job from 8,000 feet and
wiped out that bridge in one shot.
Any time anyone takes the USSBS report and paints all of bombing in WW II with
that ECONOMIC report you know you are talking to someone with zero knowledge
of bombing in WWII. Just a wannabee wirth a big mouth and zero understanding
of tactical bombing operations in WW II. And it is well known that the B-26
Marauders ended up with the most accurate bombing record in WWII in USAAC
operations. So when someone places the USSBS and Marauders in the same
sentence, you know you are talking to a total fraud and most probably somone
with near zero actual combat experience in the air..

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Christopher Morton

February 28th 04, 04:20 PM

On 27 Feb 2004 01:25:47 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
>Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
>regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

I missed not getting killed.

Being Black, I missed not being treated worse than German and Italian
POWs.

Had I fought in the war, I would be proud.

I'm not sorry that I didn't.

Are you sorry you weren't in one of the twin towers?

You might have saved somebody's life... or you might be in
infinitessimally small pieces in the Fish Kills landfill.

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

Christopher Morton

February 28th 04, 04:26 PM

On 27 Feb 2004 16:30:35 GMT, (OXMORON1) wrote:

>Art wrote:
>> Colin Powell said it, Not me. I guess he is the insulting old ****. Right?
>>
>
>Art, you have been asked to consider and clarify the time period that Powell
>was talking about and you refuse to do so.
>You are painting a couple of hundred years of the Militia with one broad stroke
>(based on Powell's referal IIRC to a brief time frame of about 6 to 10 years).
>The fact that some people (some not all) used the Guard as an avoidance of what
>they considered an idiotic war is insulting to a lot of people who did their
>job.
>I wouldn't call you an insulting old f#*k, but at times you can be a
>belligerent ass.
>This time you are being a belligerent ass in the first degree.
>And yes contacts help even in the advertizing business. You ever use any
>influence? Ever call your Senator or Representative? Ever ask for a favor?
>Next time I am going to ask for a clerk's job in MACV HQ or go for Club officer
>at the local aerodrome.

My last day on active duty at Ft. Knox in 1984, I was walking out of
the US Army Armor and Engineer Board, on the way to drive to the
Officer's Club for a last drink with a friend. An old guy and his
wife (he thought I was an EM because he didn't recognize subdued
insignia) asked me to take a picture of him in front of a static
monument armored vehicle. It turned out that he'd been in the
Philippines in December 1941 in a National Guard tank batallion.
Really nice old guy, and pretty cheerful for somebody who survived the
Bataan Death March....

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

Christopher Morton

February 28th 04, 04:27 PM

On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:46:50 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:

>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>
>> As Colin Powell said:
>>
>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>
>Only a black man would think like that.

or have reason to?

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

Ed Majden

February 28th 04, 04:49 PM

"ArtKramr"
>
> The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy
bombers
> working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
> bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near
point
> blank accuracy. A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
> operations.

Low level as compared to the B17. What about the RAF 617 Squadron
flying heavy bombers, Lancasters, at 60 feet. Now that's what I call low
level bombing!
Ed

Grantland

February 28th 04, 04:59 PM

Christopher Morton > wrote:

>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:46:50 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:
>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>
>>> As Colin Powell said:
>>>
>>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>>> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>>> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>>> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>>> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>>"
>>Only a black man would think like that.
>
>or have reason to?
>
Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
color.

Grantland

Brian Colwell

February 28th 04, 05:13 PM

"George Z. Bush" > wrote in message
...
> I was a little too young to care much about cars in those days. Not only
that,
> but there was a depression going on and my family couldn't afford the $300
or
> $400 that one of those would have cost.
>
> Yeah, I know. You're just funnin' me, and that's OK too. There's still a
> helluva lot that went on that we old farts can remember that you "young"
pups
> don't know squat about.......Baby!
>
> Smile.....you're on Candid Camera. (*-*)))
>
> George Z.
>
> D. Strang wrote:
> > Yea Baby! What was it like when the 32 Ford showed up at the
dealership?
> >
> > "George Z. Bush" > wrote
> >>
> >> I was born in 1923 and, when I was a kid, I was hugely interested in
> >> everything I could get my hands on about WWI. To this day, I can
probably
> >> dredge up details about various land battles that today's youngsters
don't
> >> even have a clue about.
> >>
> >> George Z.
>

George, Anyone who made that statement, you can bet has never been in harms
way !!!!

BMC

Tarver Engineering

February 28th 04, 05:18 PM

"Presidente Alcazar" > wrote in
message ...

> His personal contribution to WW2 exists independently of all the
> ephemeral usenet bitching, even when he is a primary instigator of the
> same bitching.

Art's trolls are the price of his participation.

Kevin Brooks trolls are the price of not killfiling him.

Andrew Chaplin

February 28th 04, 05:33 PM

ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>
> In article >,
> ArtKramr > wrote:
> >If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
> >Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
> >regrets at having missed it? Anyone?
>
> Having heard the descriptions of that war from my father (coast defence
> during summer 1940, including Cromwell,

What sort of coast defence organization was your father in, Andy?
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 06:12 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: "Ed Majden"
>Date: 2/28/04 8:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <2E30c.621135$JQ1.98712@pd7tw1no>
>
>
>"ArtKramr"
>>
>> The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy
>bombers
>> working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
>> bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near
>point
>> blank accuracy. A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
>> operations.
>
> Low level as compared to the B17. What about the RAF 617 Squadron
>flying heavy bombers, Lancasters, at 60 feet. Now that's what I call low
>level bombing!
>Ed
>
>
It sure is. But we flew of those too on the Koln marshalling yard raids.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ron

February 28th 04, 06:21 PM

>My last day on active duty at Ft. Knox in 1984, I was walking out of
>the US Army Armor and Engineer Board, on the way to drive to the
>Officer's Club for a last drink with a friend. An old guy and his
>wife (he thought I was an EM because he didn't recognize subdued
>insignia) asked me to take a picture of him in front of a static
>monument armored vehicle. It turned out that he'd been in the
>Philippines in December 1941 in a National Guard tank batallion.
>Really nice old guy, and pretty cheerful for somebody who survived the
>Bataan Death March....
>

There were many from here in New Mexico that were at Bataan. NM had a large
number of people there, because of the guard units that were sent there.

A big uproar happened a couple years ago, when some leftist hippy peace group
wanted to put a memorial up in Santa Fe for the Japanese, and the Bataan
survivors were none too happy about that. I do not think the memorial ended up
being built.

There is also a yearly march 26 mile march at White sands, that thousands are
in, occasionally in the past including some of the survivors, to commemorate
the Bataan March. I think two years, one of the survivors was going to be in
it, and march in his WW2 army uniform. He passed away while sleeping, hours
before the march, his uniform next to him and ready to be worn.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

B2431

February 28th 04, 06:23 PM

>From: (Grantland)
?
>>
>Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
>"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
>where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
>content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
>color.
>
>Grantland
>
Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?

Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 06:26 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 2/28/04 10:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: (Grantland)
>?
>>>
>>Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
>>"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
>>where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
>>content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
>>color.
>>
>>Grantland
>>
>Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?
>
>Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

There are all too many of those.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ANDREW ROBERT BREEN

February 28th 04, 06:40 PM

In article >,
Andrew Chaplin > wrote:
>ANDREW ROBERT BREEN wrote:
>>
>> Having heard the descriptions of that war from my father (coast defence
>> during summer 1940, including Cromwell,
>
>What sort of coast defence organization was your father in, Andy?

(Drifting OT for here, maybe - we may need to go to smn)
Informal might be the word - he was doing the telegrapher's course
at Skegness (AKA HMS ROYAL ARTHUR, AKA the Butlins' camp) but the
course doubled as coast defence up to Ingoldmells point. When he
first got there they had Martini-Henries. By the time Cromwell
was called they had the long Lee-Enfield (but SMLE ammunition)
and a Maxim gun that with care would fire 10 rounds before jamming.
They were led by the senior PO in charge of drill for the course,
who had been at the Dardenelles. They would have fought if the landings
had happened.
A few years ago a friend and I went to Ingoldmells on the anniverary
of Cromwell and drank toasts to those who had been there that day and
survived the war - and poured libations to those who didn't. Time, maybe,
we did it again.

--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation Research Group
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
"Time has stopped, says the Black Lion clock
and eternity has begun" (Dylan Thomas)

Grantland

February 28th 04, 06:45 PM

(B2431) wrote:

>>From: (Grantland)
>?
>>>
>>Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
>>"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
>>where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
>>content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
>>color.
>>
>>Grantland
>>
>Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?
>
>Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Lieutenant, SADF. Army.

Grantland

Christopher Morton

February 28th 04, 07:15 PM

On 28 Feb 2004 18:21:41 GMT, (Ron) wrote:

>>My last day on active duty at Ft. Knox in 1984, I was walking out of
>>the US Army Armor and Engineer Board, on the way to drive to the
>>Officer's Club for a last drink with a friend. An old guy and his
>>wife (he thought I was an EM because he didn't recognize subdued
>>insignia) asked me to take a picture of him in front of a static
>>monument armored vehicle. It turned out that he'd been in the
>>Philippines in December 1941 in a National Guard tank batallion.
>>Really nice old guy, and pretty cheerful for somebody who survived the
>>Bataan Death March....
>>
>
>There were many from here in New Mexico that were at Bataan. NM had a large
>number of people there, because of the guard units that were sent there.

There were contingents from west-central Ohio too. If I'm not
mistaken, the drill hall on the Camp Perry training facility (where
the National Shooting Matches are held) is called the Bataan hall. I
think some of the tankers came from Port Clinton, and or Fremont.

Also, if you've read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", the troopship the
"Roger Young" is named after an Ohio guardsman, who was killed on New
Guinea(?). If I remember correctly, the guard armory in Fremont is
named after him.

>A big uproar happened a couple years ago, when some leftist hippy peace group
>wanted to put a memorial up in Santa Fe for the Japanese, and the Bataan
>survivors were none too happy about that. I do not think the memorial ended up
>being built.

There's always somebody who'd rather honor Charlie Manson than Sharon
Tate.

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

Christopher Morton

February 28th 04, 07:16 PM

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:59:02 GMT, (Grantland)
wrote:

>Christopher Morton > wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:46:50 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:
>>
>>>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>>
>>>> As Colin Powell said:
>>>>
>>>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>>>> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>>>> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>>>> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>>>> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>>>"
>>>Only a black man would think like that.
>>
>>or have reason to?
>>
>Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:

Look at Bosnia, or Kosovo, or Germany between 1933 and 1945, or Russia
from 1917 until 1991.

Scumbags will be scumbags, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity.

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

Presidente Alcazar

February 28th 04, 07:57 PM

On 28 Feb 2004 11:52:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>Gavin,
>
>The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy bombers
>working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
>bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near point
>blank accuracy.

Arthur,

I'm well aware of the distinction between strategic and tactical
bombing, and the institutional bias of the USSBS. I've posted myself
on the excellent record of the US tactical air forces in WW2, but I'm
not going to feel compelled to repeat that here out of any misguided
sense of defensiveness.

> A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
>operations., When a target ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TAKEN OUT NOW, THEY DIDN'T SEND
>IN B-17'S WORKING FROM 22,000 FEET. THEY SENT IN MARAUDERS FROM 10,000 FEET.

That must explain why Eaker sent the B-26's of the 9th AF to attack
Schweinfurt in August 1943 when the B-17's failed to destroy it.
Thanks for providing me with a convenient example of your own lack of
objectivity and proportion, though.

The reality is that USAAF targets, except in limited periods such as
Overlord, were not allocated away from the strategic forces to the
tactical forces on any kind of priority, let alone chronological
priority. That you think so is instructive, however.

>Any time anyone takes the USSBS report and paints all of bombing in WW II with
>that ECONOMIC report you know you are talking to someone with zero knowledge
>of bombing in WWII.

Good that I hadn't mentioned it and that you decided to bring your own
straw man to the thread. Which allows me to demonstrate one of your
more unpleasant and demeaning usenet characteristics without having to
exert much effort to do so.

>Just a wannabee wirth a big mouth and zero understanding
>of tactical bombing operations in WW II. And it is well known that the B-26
>Marauders ended up with the most accurate bombing record in WWII in USAAC
>operations. So when someone places the USSBS and Marauders in the same
>sentence, you know you are talking to a total fraud and most probably somone
>with near zero actual combat experience in the air..

You mean like you just did?

And while I'm out of your kill-file and you seem enthused enough to
address your own contradictions on such subjects, please remind me of
your personal experience of Geoffrey Chaucer. Or feel free to run
away from that one again if you prefer. I used to think you behaved
like that online for laugh, but I must admit I'm starting to think you
actually aren't that far removed from the more unpleasant side of your
usenet persona. Pity.

Gavin Bailey

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 08:01 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Presidente Alcazar
>Date: 2/28/04 11:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 28 Feb 2004 11:52:22 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Gavin,
>>
>>The USSBS was an economic analysis of STRATEGIC bombing. That is heavy
>bombers
>>working from 22,000 feet under very difficult conditions. We were tactical
>>bombers, medium bombers working from 8-10,000 feet which gave us near
>point
>>blank accuracy.
>
>Arthur,
>
>I'm well aware of the distinction between strategic and tactical
>bombing, and the institutional bias of the USSBS. I've posted myself
>on the excellent record of the US tactical air forces in WW2, but I'm
>not going to feel compelled to repeat that here out of any misguided
>sense of defensiveness.
>
>> A totally different set of conditions than the strategic
>>operations., When a target ABSOLUTELY MUST BE TAKEN OUT NOW, THEY DIDN'T
>SEND
>>IN B-17'S WORKING FROM 22,000 FEET. THEY SENT IN MARAUDERS FROM 10,000
>FEET.
>
>That must explain why Eaker sent the B-26's of the 9th AF to attack
>Schweinfurt in August 1943 when the B-17's failed to destroy it.
>Thanks for providing me with a convenient example of your own lack of
>objectivity and proportion, though.
>
>The reality is that USAAF targets, except in limited periods such as
>Overlord, were not allocated away from the strategic forces to the
>tactical forces on any kind of priority, let alone chronological
>priority. That you think so is instructive, however.
>
>>Any time anyone takes the USSBS report and paints all of bombing in WW II
>with
>>that ECONOMIC report you know you are talking to someone with zero
>knowledge
>>of bombing in WWII.
>
>Good that I hadn't mentioned it and that you decided to bring your own
>straw man to the thread. Which allows me to demonstrate one of your
>more unpleasant and demeaning usenet characteristics without having to
>exert much effort to do so.
>
>>Just a wannabee wirth a big mouth and zero understanding
>>of tactical bombing operations in WW II. And it is well known that the B-26
>>Marauders ended up with the most accurate bombing record in WWII in USAAC
>>operations. So when someone places the USSBS and Marauders in the same
>>sentence, you know you are talking to a total fraud and most probably somone
>>with near zero actual combat experience in the air..
>
>You mean like you just did?
>
>And while I'm out of your kill-file and you seem enthused enough to
>address your own contradictions on such subjects, please remind me of
>your personal experience of Geoffrey Chaucer. Or feel free to run
>away from that one again if you prefer. I used to think you behaved
>like that online for laugh, but I must admit I'm starting to think you
>actually aren't that far removed from the more unpleasant side of your
>usenet persona. Pity.
>
>Gavin Bailey
>

PLONK!
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Grantland

February 28th 04, 08:03 PM

Christopher Morton > wrote:

>On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:59:02 GMT, (Grantland)
>wrote:
>
>>Christopher Morton > wrote:
>>
>>>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 16:46:50 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>>>>>
>>>>> As Colin Powell said:
>>>>>
>>>>> "I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and
>>>>> well-placed managed to wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National
>>>>> Guard units... Of the many tragedies of Vietnam, this raw class
>>>>> discrimination strikes me as the most damaging to the ideal that all
>>>>> Americans are created equal and owe equal allegiance to their country."
>>>>"
>>>>Only a black man would think like that.
>>>
>>>or have reason to?
>>>
>>Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
>
>Look at Bosnia, or Kosovo, or Germany between 1933 and 1945, or Russia
>from 1917 until 1991.
>
>Scumbags will be scumbags, regardless of race, religion or ethnicity.
>
Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.

Grantland

Mike Marron

February 28th 04, 08:07 PM

(ArtKramr) wrote:
(B2431) wrote:

>>Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?

>>Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.

What do you think this is...your local VFW watering hole chit chat
message board? As an A&P mechanic I've overhauled military
jet engines in civilian shops which, in addition to having a really
cool Dad who let me on the flightline (jealous R U), counts for just
as much and is a heck of a lot more interesting than your plain jane
mediocre military career.

>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Are we supposed to be impressed?

>There are all too many of those.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
a dozen, too.

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 08:35 PM

>ubject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 2/28/04 12:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
(B2431) wrote:
>
>>>Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?
>
>>>Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.
>
>What do you think this is...your local VFW watering hole chit chat
>message board? As an A&P mechanic I've overhauled military
>jet engines in civilian shops which, in addition to having a really
>cool Dad who let me on the flightline (jealous R U), counts for just
>as much and is a heck of a lot more interesting than your plain jane
>mediocre military career.
>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Are we supposed to be impressed?
>
>>There are all too many of those.
>
>Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
>supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
>WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
>a dozen, too.
>
>
>

It's not who you are, it is where you have been and what you've done. Where
have you been and what have you done?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Mike Marron

February 28th 04, 09:01 PM

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 09:07 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 2/28/04 1:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>>Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
>>>supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
>>>WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
>>>a dozen, too.
>
>>It's not who you are, it is where you have been and what you've done. Where
>>have you been and what have you done?
>
>Hiya Art. Just curious, where has your illustrious and imaginary
>RAM playmate ("Autocollimator") been hiding these days?
>
>
>"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
>being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
>I log on. Keep 'em flying."
>
>-- Art Kramer bragging on himself while posing as "Autocollimator"
>
>
>

Where were you and what did you do? Anything? Anything at all?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tank Fixer

February 28th 04, 09:17 PM

In article >,
on Sat, 28 Feb 2004 14:15:35 -0500,
Christopher Morton attempted to say .....

> Also, if you've read Heinlein's "Starship Troopers", the troopship the
> "Roger Young" is named after an Ohio guardsman, who was killed on New
> Guinea(?).
>

Young, Rodger W., Private, 48th Infantry, 37th Infantry Division (Ohio
Buckeyes: born Tiffin Ohio, 28 April 1918; died 31 July 1943, on the
island New Georgia, Solomons, South Pacific, while singlewandedly
attacking and destroying an enemy machine-gun pillbox. His platoon had
been pinned down by intense fire from this pillbox: Private Young was
wounded in the first burst. He crawled toward the pillbox, was wounded a
second time but continued to advance, firing his rifle as he did so. He
closed on the pillbox, attacked and destroyed it with hand grenades, but
in so doing he was wounded a third time and killed. His bold and gallant
action in the face of overwhelming odds enabled his teammates to escape
without loss; he was awarded posthumously the Medal of Honor.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Mike Marron

February 28th 04, 09:18 PM

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
>>supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
>>WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
>>a dozen, too.

>It's not who you are, it is where you have been and what you've done. Where
>have you been and what have you done?

>>Hiya Art. Just curious, where has your illustrious and imaginary
>>RAM playmate ("Autocollimator") been hiding these days?

>>"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
>>being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
>>I log on. Keep 'em flying."

>>-- Art Kramer bragging on himself while posing as "Autocollimator"

>Where were you and what did you do? Anything? Anything at all?

You talking to me, or your imaginary playmate "Autocollimator" again?

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 09:30 PM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 2/28/04 1:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>Mike Marron wrote:
>
>>>Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
>>>supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
>>>WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
>>>a dozen, too.
>
>>It's not who you are, it is where you have been and what you've done. Where
>>have you been and what have you done?
>
>>>Hiya Art. Just curious, where has your illustrious and imaginary
>>>RAM playmate ("Autocollimator") been hiding these days?
>
>>>"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
>>>being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
>>>I log on. Keep 'em flying."
>
>>>-- Art Kramer bragging on himself while posing as "Autocollimator"
>
>>Where were you and what did you do? Anything? Anything at all?
>
>You talking to me, or your imaginary playmate "Autocollimator" again?
>
>
stop the endless bull****. Where were you and what did you do?. Nothing
that's clear.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

B2431

February 28th 04, 09:35 PM

>From: (Grantland)
>

>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.
>
>Grantland
>

Better read up on that, grantland. Homo sapien refers to all mankind and the
average is 100.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431

February 28th 04, 09:39 PM

>From: Mike Marron
>>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
(B2431) wrote:
>
>>>Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?
>
>>>Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.
>
>What do you think this is...your local VFW watering hole chit chat
>message board? As an A&P mechanic I've overhauled military
>jet engines in civilian shops which, in addition to having a really
>cool Dad who let me on the flightline (jealous R U), counts for just
>as much and is a heck of a lot more interesting than your plain jane
>mediocre military career.
>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>Are we supposed to be impressed?
>
>>There are all too many of those.
>
>Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
>supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
>WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
>a dozen, too.
>

I didn't say a word to you yet you felt the need to say this?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431

February 28th 04, 09:42 PM

>From: (Grantland)

>
(B2431) wrote:
>
>>>From: (Grantland)
>>?
>>>>
>>>Take a look at Haiti. In his "I Have a Dream" speech Dr. King said:
>>>"I have a dream that my four children will one day live in a nation
>>>where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the
>>>content of their character." Yes. Subhumans. Forget about skin
>>>color.
>>>
>>>Grantland
>>>
>>Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?
>>
>>Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>Lieutenant, SADF. Army.
>
>Grantland
>
How come every SA military man I ever met behaved in a civil and mature manner
yet you seem incapable of doing the same?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Grantland

February 28th 04, 09:57 PM

(B2431) wrote:

>>From: Mike Marron
>>>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
(B2431) wrote:
>>
>>>>Speaking of subhumans have you any military experience at all?
>>
>>>>Having a father who let you on the flightline doesn't count.
>>
>>What do you think this is...your local VFW watering hole chit chat
>>message board? As an A&P mechanic I've overhauled military
>>jet engines in civilian shops which, in addition to having a really
>>cool Dad who let me on the flightline (jealous R U), counts for just
>>as much and is a heck of a lot more interesting than your plain jane
>>mediocre military career.
>>
>>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>Are we supposed to be impressed?
>>
>>>There are all too many of those.
>>
>>Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
>>supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
>>WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
>>a dozen, too.
>>
>
>I didn't say a word to you yet you felt the need to say this?
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Tarver is having a nervous breakdown. LOL! Watch the little ****er
squeal. Heh heh heh. Squeeeeeeeeeek!!

Grantland

B2431

February 28th 04, 09:59 PM

>From: (Ron)
<snip>

>A big uproar happened a couple years ago, when some leftist hippy peace group
>wanted to put a memorial up in Santa Fe for the Japanese, and the Bataan
>survivors were none too happy about that.
<snip>
>
>
>Ron
>Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
>
Why would anyone want to build a Japanese memorial there? I can see a monument
to the Japanese internees, but a memorial?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Mike Marron

February 28th 04, 10:01 PM

(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>Sorry to burst your bubble, but military retirees such as mechanics,
>>supply clerks, bombardiers, navigators, engineers, fighter pilots,
>>WSO's, helicopter and cargo pilots and co-pilots etc. etc. are a dime
>>a dozen, too.

>It's not who you are, it is where you have been and what you've done. Where
>have you been and what have you done?

>>Hiya Art. Just curious, where has your illustrious and imaginary
>>RAM playmate ("Autocollimator") been hiding these days?

>>"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat
>>being there no matter what. I look for your posts every time
>>I log on. Keep 'em flying."

>>-- Art Kramer bragging on himself while posing as "Autocollimator"

>Where were you and what did you do? Anything? Anything at all?

>>You talking to me, or your imaginary playmate "Autocollimator" again?

>stop the endless bull****. Where were you and what did you do?. Nothing
>that's clear.

The REAL question is: "Where in the world is Autocollimator in San
Diego?"

Grantland

February 28th 04, 10:02 PM

(B2431) wrote:

>>From: (Grantland)
>>
>
>>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.
>>
>>Grantland
>>
>
>Better read up on that, grantland. Homo sapien refers to all mankind and the
>average is 100.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Nope. You're thinking of sapiens sapiens.

Grantland

Mike Marron

February 28th 04, 10:09 PM

> (B2431) wrote:

>I didn't say a word to you yet you felt the need to say this?

Just thought you should know that this ain't your hometown VFW hall
where old farts like you and Kramer/Autocollimator sit around getting
older and older and better and better.

>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

BFD.

Ron

February 28th 04, 10:45 PM

>Why would anyone want to build a Japanese memorial there? I can see a
>monument
>to the Japanese internees, but a memorial?
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

I think it was to internees, but the NM Bataan Death March survivors were still
not entirely thrilled

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

B2431

February 28th 04, 11:21 PM

>From: Mike Marron

>
>> (B2431) wrote:
>
>>I didn't say a word to you yet you felt the need to say this?
>
>Just thought you should know that this ain't your hometown VFW hall
>where old farts like you and Kramer/Autocollimator sit around getting
>older and older and better and better.
>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>BFD.
>
Just like you I am not a member of VFW. Unlike you I choose not to be, but at
least I have the choice. Jealous? On second thought I don't care.

Have a nice day.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Christopher Morton

February 28th 04, 11:32 PM

On 28 Feb 2004 22:45:11 GMT, (Ron) wrote:

>>Why would anyone want to build a Japanese memorial there? I can see a
>>monument
>>to the Japanese internees, but a memorial?
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>I think it was to internees, but the NM Bataan Death March survivors were still
>not entirely thrilled

The internees were victims of Japanese aggression, not perpetrators of
it.

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

Tank Fixer

February 29th 04, 01:22 AM

In article >,
on 28 Feb 2004 20:01:29 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

>
> PLONK!
>
>

A coward to boot...

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

George Ruch

February 29th 04, 05:08 AM

Mike Marron > wrote:

>> (B2431) wrote:
>
>>I didn't say a word to you yet you felt the need to say this?
>
>Just thought you should know that this ain't your hometown VFW hall
>where old farts like you and Kramer/Autocollimator sit around getting
>older and older and better and better.

Jealous because you don't qualify?

>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
>BFD.

As Art said, Where were you and what did you do?

George Ruch
MSgt, USAF, Ret.

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

George Ruch

February 29th 04, 05:20 AM

(Ron) wrote:

>>My last day on active duty at Ft. Knox in 1984, I was walking out of
>>the US Army Armor and Engineer Board, on the way to drive to the
>>Officer's Club for a last drink with a friend. An old guy and his
>>wife (he thought I was an EM because he didn't recognize subdued
>>insignia) asked me to take a picture of him in front of a static
>>monument armored vehicle. It turned out that he'd been in the
>>Philippines in December 1941 in a National Guard tank batallion.
>>Really nice old guy, and pretty cheerful for somebody who survived the
>>Bataan Death March....
>>
>
>There were many from here in New Mexico that were at Bataan. NM had a large
>number of people there, because of the guard units that were sent there.

The 200th and 515th Anti-Aircraft Artillery. I haven't been to the museum
in Santa Fe yet, but if any of the regulars here are ever in Albuquerque,
there's a quiet memorial in Bataan Memorial Park on Lomas just west of
Carslile.

If you do visit, take the time to count the number of men who didn't make
it home - something like half.

>A big uproar happened a couple years ago, when some leftist hippy peace group
>wanted to put a memorial up in Santa Fe for the Japanese, and the Bataan
>survivors were none too happy about that.

Completely understandable, given the survivors' treatment on the march.

George

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

Ron

February 29th 04, 05:48 AM

>There were many from here in New Mexico that were at Bataan. NM had a large
>>number of people there, because of the guard units that were sent there.
>
>The 200th and 515th Anti-Aircraft Artillery. I haven't been to the museum
>in Santa Fe yet, but if any of the regulars here are ever in Albuquerque,
>there's a quiet memorial in Bataan Memorial Park on Lomas just west of
>Carslile.
>
>If you do visit, take the time to count the number of men who didn't make
>it home - something like half.
>
>>A big uproar happened a couple years ago, when some leftist hippy peace
>group
>>wanted to put a memorial up in Santa Fe for the Japanese, and the Bataan
>>survivors were none too happy about that.
>
>Completely understandable, given the survivors' treatment on the march.
>
>George

I spent some time today researching the commemorative march held later in
March. It is 26 miles through the desert, mostly military but civilians can go
too. Bataan survivors attend the ceremonies, and I think it would be
interesting. Need something to work towards before I go fly tankers. Sounds
like a grueling but rewarding experience for those who do it.

Too bad we dont have more RAM posters here in NM that could do it too

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

Walt Appel

February 29th 04, 07:50 AM

Christopher Morton > wrote in message >...

>
> There were contingents from west-central Ohio too. If I'm not
> mistaken, the drill hall on the Camp Perry training facility (where
> the National Shooting Matches are held) is called the Bataan hall. I
> think some of the tankers came from Port Clinton, and or Fremont.

There should be a Stuart somewhere around there as well. I think its
one of the early ones held together with rivits. I was the drum major
of the band that played for the dedication ceremony (National Guard
Band.... I'm a slacker and a musician!!!). When you think of the
people going to war in those death traps with those 37mm popguns....
" We are the battling *******s of Bataan... No mama.. No papa... No
Uncle Sam... and nobody gives a damn"....

Walt

31 years of guard service and counting.... after serving in a war
where you had the pleasure of having dog **** thrown at you for coming
home...

Presidente Alcazar

February 29th 04, 09:22 AM

On 28 Feb 2004 20:01:29 GMT, (ArtKramr) wrote:

>>And while I'm out of your kill-file and you seem enthused enough to
>>address your own contradictions on such subjects, please remind me of
>>your personal experience of Geoffrey Chaucer. Or feel free to run
>>away from that one again if you prefer. I used to think you behaved
>>like that online for laugh, but I must admit I'm starting to think you
>>actually aren't that far removed from the more unpleasant side of your
>>usenet persona. Pity.
>
>PLONK!

That's right, Arthur, run away yet again. The laughable thing is that
this just demonstrates that what you're running away from is the
unwelcome task of confronting your own posted opinions in regard to
yourself. Evidently a man who had the guts to fight at great personal
risk in WW2 doesn't have the guts to apply the same intellectual
standards to himself as he likes to impose upon others on usenet sixty
years later. I find that rather sad.

***********************

From: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised )
Subject: Re: #1 Jet of World War II
View: Complete Thread (286 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: rec.aviation.military
Date: 2003-07-05 06:05:45 PST

>>If you really want to play with your own straw men so much, tell me
>>about your personal, first-hand knowledge of Geoffrey Chaucer. It's
>>only right.
>>
>>Gavin Bailey
>
>You tell me yours. I'll tell you mine.

I have no-first hand experience of Geoffrey Chaucer in person
whatsoever.

Your turn.

Gavin Bailey

**************************

[Silence....]

So, what price all those rants about the supremacy of your direct
experience over those who read books about it again? Or did you
actually participate in late medieval pilgrimages from Bermondsey to
Canterbury yourself then? If not, Arthur Kramer has some interesting
opinions about wannabes such as you.

Gavin Bailey

Cub Driver

February 29th 04, 10:48 AM

>>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.

Wow. Did someone really write that?

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Greg Hennessy

February 29th 04, 11:09 AM

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 01:22:20 GMT, Tank Fixer
> wrote:

>In article >,
> on 28 Feb 2004 20:01:29 GMT,
> ArtKramr attempted to say .....
>
>>
>> PLONK!
>>
>>
>
>A coward to boot...

Not to put too fine a point on it.

greg

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

Mike Marron

February 29th 04, 12:33 PM

>George Ruch > wrote:
>>Mike Marron > wrote:

>>Just thought you should know that this ain't your hometown VFW hall
>>where old farts like you and Kramer/Autocollimator sit around getting
>>older and older and better and better.

>Jealous because you don't qualify?

Because I fly, I envy no one.

>As Art said, Where were you and what did you do?

"Have been reading your website. Great stuff . I have some questions.
We'll do it e-mail. Thanks."

--Art Kramer enjoying a discussion on RAM with "Autocollimator" (e.g:
Art having a discussion with Art....)

Chris Morton

February 29th 04, 01:39 PM

In article >, Walt Appel says...
>
>Christopher Morton > wrote in message
>...
>
>>
>> There were contingents from west-central Ohio too. If I'm not
>> mistaken, the drill hall on the Camp Perry training facility (where
>> the National Shooting Matches are held) is called the Bataan hall. I
>> think some of the tankers came from Port Clinton, and or Fremont.
>
>There should be a Stuart somewhere around there as well. I think its
>one of the early ones held together with rivits. I was the drum major
>of the band that played for the dedication ceremony (National Guard
>Band.... I'm a slacker and a musician!!!). When you think of the
>people going to war in those death traps with those 37mm popguns....
>" We are the battling *******s of Bataan... No mama.. No papa... No
>Uncle Sam... and nobody gives a damn"....

The guy that I talked to said that they kicked the Japanese tankers' asses
everywhere they met them, until they ran out of gas and ammo. He said what
really hurt them was that they had only AP-shot for AT. He thought that if
they'd had AP-shell, they'd have totally routed them.

The Stuart, is if I remember correctly, behind the covered pistol range, near
the French WWI railroad car display.

--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 210lb.
rapists.

B2431

February 29th 04, 02:52 PM

>From: Cub Driver

>
>>>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.
>
>Wow. Did someone really write that?
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford

Yes, it was grantland who a) has no concept of bell curves and b) thinks homo
sapiens are everyone nonwhite. Even if he were correct about the second part
the average would still be 100 unless he's using an unknown index.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

B2431

February 29th 04, 02:56 PM

>From: George Ruch

>
>Mike Marron > wrote:
>
>>> (B2431) wrote:
>>
>>>I didn't say a word to you yet you felt the need to say this?
>>
>>Just thought you should know that this ain't your hometown VFW hall
>>where old farts like you and Kramer/Autocollimator sit around getting
>>older and older and better and better.
>
>Jealous because you don't qualify?
>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>
>>BFD.
>
>As Art said, Where were you and what did you do?
>
>George Ruch
>MSgt, USAF, Ret.
>

He was sitting warm and safe at home believing his father's war stories made
him knowledgable about the USAF mission. Do a google search on marron and his
accusations that the USAF was responsible for 9/11.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Grantland

February 29th 04, 03:59 PM

(B2431) wrote:

>>From: Cub Driver
>
>>
>>>>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.
>>
>>Wow. Did someone really write that?
>>
>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>
>Yes, it was grantland who a) has no concept of bell curves and b) thinks homo
>sapiens are everyone nonwhite. Even if he were correct about the second part
>the average would still be 100 unless he's using an unknown index.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Nope, and nope. Do a google on African iq.

Grantland

B2431

February 29th 04, 04:49 PM

>From: (Grantland)
>
(B2431) wrote:
>
>>>From: Cub Driver
>>
>>>
>>>>>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.
>>>
>>>Wow. Did someone really write that?
>>>
>>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>
>>Yes, it was grantland who a) has no concept of bell curves and b) thinks
>homo
>>sapiens are everyone nonwhite. Even if he were correct about the second
>part
>>the average would still be 100 unless he's using an unknown index.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>Nope, and nope. Do a google on African iq.
>
>Grantland
>
But YOU are African. Being a citizen of SA does that to a person. If the
average IQ in Africa is 70 are you above average? Maybe all the way up to 77?

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Grantland

February 29th 04, 05:21 PM

(B2431) wrote:

>>From: (Grantland)
>>
(B2431) wrote:
>>
>>>>From: Cub Driver
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.
>>>>
>>>>Wow. Did someone really write that?
>>>>
>>>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>>
>>>Yes, it was grantland who a) has no concept of bell curves and b) thinks
>>homo
>>>sapiens are everyone nonwhite. Even if he were correct about the second
>>part
>>>the average would still be 100 unless he's using an unknown index.
>>>
>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>>Nope, and nope. Do a google on African iq.
>>
>>Grantland
>>
>But YOU are African. Being a citizen of SA does that to a person. If the
>average IQ in Africa is 70 are you above average? Maybe all the way up to 77?
>
>Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Yes. Childish and trivial. Don't you care about truth, Danny?

Grantland

Mike Marron

February 29th 04, 05:26 PM

> (B2431) wrote:

>He was sitting warm and safe at home believing his father's war stories made
>him knowledgable about the USAF mission.

Must be frustrating as hell you being a retired AF sergeant and still
not having anything interesting to say about military (or civil)
aviation huh?

>Do a google search on marron and his accusations that the USAF was
>responsible for 9/11.

And while you're doing that google search, note that sergeant dan is
lying again as usual. In other words, I said that ALL branches of the
military INCLUDING our beloved USAF and also our so-called
"intelligence" communities quite frankly dropped the ball BIG
time on 9/11 (just MHO). Big difference than saying the USAF was
responsible for 9/11. Thems sergeant dan's words, not mine.

However, while doing that google searching in the same 9/11 thread,
you will note that while I was ****hammering sergeant dan beyond
recognition, Mary Shafer and other RAM posters proved that sergeant
dan's unfounded lies and accusations he was making about me and
my Dad (such as his accusation that I said the USAF was responsible
for 9/11) were patently false.

Any google search will reveal that not unlike Kramer, sergeant dan
is just a bitter old man who has nothing better to do than to sit on
his ass at home spewing bull**** on his computer via his chickenous
anonymous "Dan U.S. Air Force" pseudonym while waiting for his
next disability check to arrive in the mail courtesy of the U.S.
taxypayers. He rarely, if ever posts anything worth reading so to
get attention, he simply trolls for flames to achieve his thrills. His
signal-to-noise ratio rates right down there with the ol' tarv troll.

Brian Colwell

February 29th 04, 06:08 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >George Ruch > wrote:
> >>Mike Marron > wrote:
>
> >>Just thought you should know that this ain't your hometown VFW hall
> >>where old farts like you and Kramer/Autocollimator sit around getting
> >>older and older and better and better.
>
> >Jealous because you don't qualify?
>
> Because I fly, I envy no one.
>
> >As Art said, Where were you and what did you do?
>
> "Have been reading your website. Great stuff . I have some questions.
> We'll do it e-mail. Thanks."
>
> --Art Kramer enjoying a discussion on RAM with "Autocollimator" (e.g:
> Art having a discussion with Art....)
>

Who let that yappy little dog out again !!?

Christopher Morton

February 29th 04, 06:58 PM

On Sun, 29 Feb 2004 15:59:18 GMT, (Grantland)
wrote:

(B2431) wrote:
>
>>>From: Cub Driver
>>
>>>
>>>>>Homo sapiens has a mean iq of 70. That's the fact.
>>>
>>>Wow. Did someone really write that?
>>>
>>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>
>>Yes, it was grantland who a) has no concept of bell curves and b) thinks homo
>>sapiens are everyone nonwhite. Even if he were correct about the second part
>>the average would still be 100 unless he's using an unknown index.
>>
>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>Nope, and nope. Do a google on African iq.
>
>Grantland

You're neither African, nor do you have an IQ.

--
More blood for oil... in my name!

Pete

February 29th 04, 11:00 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> > (B2431) wrote:
>
> >He was sitting warm and safe at home believing his father's war stories
made
> >him knowledgable about the USAF mission.
>
> Must be frustrating as hell you being a retired AF sergeant and still
> not having anything interesting to say about military (or civil)
> aviation huh?
>
> >Do a google search on marron and his accusations that the USAF was
> >responsible for 9/11.
>
> And while you're doing that google search, note that sergeant dan is
> lying again as usual. In other words, I said that ALL branches of the
> military INCLUDING our beloved USAF and also our so-called
> "intelligence" communities quite frankly dropped the ball BIG
> time on 9/11 (just MHO). Big difference than saying the USAF was
> responsible for 9/11. Thems sergeant dan's words, not mine.

and these are yours:
""Why was the USAF unable to prevent 9/11?" "

" to this day I too am confounded by the apparent
ineptness of the USAF (and especially the American intelligence
community) both of whom utterly failed to prevent the apocalyptic
death and destruction of 9/11."

All throughout that looong thread...you repeatedly slammed the Air Force for
ineptitude. You dropped one or two references to the other sevices, but the
main thrust was aimed at the Air Fforce. Deny all you want, but the record
IS there for all to see.

The intel community for not seeing and stopping the threat beforehand, but,
it appears, the USAF for not stopping as it was happening.

And to date, you still have not said what you think should or could have
been done differently. Instead, you just choose to stamp your feet and yell
"They shoulda stopped it!"

How?

Pete
Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice.

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 12:02 AM

>"Pete" > wrote:

>Pete
>Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice.

Pot Kettle Black.

Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice. Are you
saying that the USAF is exempt from sharing any blame for 9/11?

Please answer with a simple "yea" or "nay" right here -->____________

ArtKramr

March 1st 04, 12:04 AM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 2/29/04 4:02 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>"Pete" > wrote:
>
>>Pete
>>Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice.
>
>Pot Kettle Black.
>
>Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice. Are you
>saying that the USAF is exempt from sharing any blame for 9/11?
>
>Please answer with a simple "yea" or "nay" right here -->__ASSHOLE !!!!

__________

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 12:18 AM

> (ArtKramr) wrote:

>ASSHOLE !!!!

Hiya Art (or "Autocollimator" or whatever the hell you're calling
yourself these days). Hope you feel better now that you've gotten that
off your chest. Now you run along and play nice and don't be giving
the nurses on your psycho unit at the VA hospital a hard time, kay?
;))

>Arthur Kramer
>344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

March 1st 04, 12:20 AM

>Subject: Re: If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....
>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 2/29/04 4:18 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>> (ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>ASSHOLE !!!!
>
>Hiya Art (or "Autocollimator" or whatever the hell you're calling
>yourself these days). Hope you feel better now that you've gotten that
>off your chest. Now you run along and play nice and don't be giving
>the nurses on your psycho unit at the VA hospital a hard time, kay?
>;))
>
>
Is it true you were too cowardly to go into the military? Slimeball.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tank Fixer

March 1st 04, 01:44 AM

In article >,
on Mon, 01 Mar 2004 00:02:26 GMT,
Mike Marron attempted to say .....

> >"Pete" > wrote:
>
> >Pete
> >Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice.
>
> Pot Kettle Black.
>
> Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice. Are you
> saying that the USAF is exempt from sharing any blame for 9/11?
>
> Please answer with a simple "yea" or "nay" right here -->____________
>

Nay.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Pete

March 1st 04, 02:40 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Pete" > wrote:
>
> >Pete
> >Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice.
>
> Pot Kettle Black.

(still no actual answer)

> Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice. Are you
> saying that the USAF is exempt from sharing any blame for 9/11?
>
> Please answer with a simple "yea" or "nay" right here -->____________

But...to *your* question, which I will be gracious enough to address...

'sharing any blame'
That talks to several different points.

The intelligence work before 9/11? Not the Air Forces baliwick. CIA, FBI,
INS, Justice....but not the uniformed services intelligence depts.

As events were happening? As has been laid out many, many times...The
timeline is online for all to see. The alert jets from Otis and Langley were
in the air as fast as (or faster than) humanly possible. 5 minute alert, in
the air in 4 minutes. Otis -> NYC is a fixed distance. There is an upper
limit on F-15 dash speed.
You do the math.

Again....since your opinion is "the Air Force dropped the ball, BIG
TIME"...specifically, what do *you* think could or should have been done
differently?

Pete

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 03:41 AM

>"Pete" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Pot Kettle Black.

>(still no actual answer)

Wrong again. If you go back and read the 9/11 thread that you've
chosen to resurrect you'll see that I answered the question several
times back then. But since you've either missed my answer or
intentionally glossed over it in your usual manner; like I said we
should've prevented 9/11 by initiating a preemptive strike "wherever
terrorists hide, or run, or plan" (e.g: Afghanistan, Indonesia, Iraq,
etc. etc...) just like the Israeli's had wisely done way back in 1981
when they took out the Osiraq nuclear powerplant near Baghdad.

>>Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice. Are you
>>saying that the USAF is exempt from sharing any blame for 9/11?

>>Please answer with a simple "yea" or "nay" right here -->____________

>But...to *your* question, which I will be gracious enough to address...

Nothing "gracious" about it since it has taken ya what, two months to
FINALLY address the question?!

>'sharing any blame'
>That talks to several different points.

Now you're getting the picture. I'm the first to champion the cause of
the mighty U.S. Air Force, however, ya can't have it both ways. In
other words, you want to take all the credit when things go right
but point you finger at the "other guys" when things don't go right.
As I said, I remain convinced that the USAF was at least partly to
blame because not unlike Dec 7, 1941, the enemy caught all of us
INCLUDING the mighty USAF napping on the job, so to speak. Like
it or not, the horrific results of both surprise attacks at Pearl
Harbor and NYC/Washington DC speaks for itself!

>The intelligence work before 9/11? Not the Air Forces baliwick. CIA, FBI,
>INS, Justice....but not the uniformed services intelligence depts.

There ya' go again trying to pass the buck (sorry, but it doesn't work
that way and ya' can't have it both ways...see above). As I clearly
explained before, counterterrorism operations is indeed the Air
Force's "baliwick." While the President may have the final decision
whether or not to act, but in conjunction with other military services
and national agencies, Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and
Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily involved with
counterterrorism operations. Now, I don't know about you, but 3,000
dead Americans is proof positive enough for me that obviously the
Air Force ISR specialists and their civilian counterparts dropped the
ball BIG time somewhere along the line -- precisely like I've been
saying all along.

>As events were happening? As has been laid out many, many times...The
>timeline is online for all to see. The alert jets from Otis and Langley were
>in the air as fast as (or faster than) humanly possible. 5 minute alert, in
>the air in 4 minutes. Otis -> NYC is a fixed distance. There is an upper
>limit on F-15 dash speed.
>You do the math.

Airborne in "4-minutes" is all hunky dory but since they reportedly
weren't even armed, what were the fighters gonna do if they merged
with the hijacked airliners -- RAM 'em? Besides, as I said "many, many
times" things never should've gotten to that point in the first place
and tragically it's all water under the bridge now. THREE THOUSAND
innocent Americans are dead and the world as we know it has been
changed (arguably for the worse!) for_ever.

>Again....since your opinion is "the Air Force dropped the ball, BIG
>TIME"...specifically, what do *you* think could or should have been done
>differently?

Again (for the umpteenth time) see above.

Pete

March 1st 04, 04:04 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote

>
> Airborne in "4-minutes" is all hunky dory but since they reportedly
> weren't even armed, what were the fighters gonna do if they merged
> with the hijacked airliners -- RAM 'em?

Your argument starts out wrong, and just goes downhill from there. Of course
they were armed. These were jets 'on alert'. Since you've never actually
pulled alert duty, you might not know what that means.

Preemptive strike? On what? A house or apartment building in Boston or
Florida?

By your definition, the Air Force has already 'dropped the ball' by not
blowing up the next guy who pulls off a surprise attack. Indeed, ALL Air
Forces whose people are targeted by terrorists. The IAF fails weekly,
because some random palestinian blows up a bus.

Pete

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 04:23 AM

>"Pete" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Airborne in "4-minutes" is all hunky dory but since they reportedly
>>weren't even armed, what were the fighters gonna do if they merged
>>with the hijacked airliners -- RAM 'em?

>Your argument starts out wrong, and just goes downhill from there.

Because your debating skills, rhetoric and logic failed ya you simply
snip away my argument? BRILLIANT! And after you conveniently
snip away my argument, you are now attempting to prove that my
argument is "wrong" by the mere force of your assertion alone.
Therefore, there's no use in continuing this debate any furthur until
you stop snipping away all the stuff that you can't debate in a
intelligent and rational manner.

Pete

March 1st 04, 05:29 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Pete" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >>Airborne in "4-minutes" is all hunky dory but since they reportedly
> >>weren't even armed, what were the fighters gonna do if they merged
> >>with the hijacked airliners -- RAM 'em?
>
> >Your argument starts out wrong, and just goes downhill from there.
>
> Because your debating skills, rhetoric and logic failed ya you simply
> snip away my argument? BRILLIANT! And after you conveniently
> snip away my argument, you are now attempting to prove that my
> argument is "wrong" by the mere force of your assertion alone.
> Therefore, there's no use in continuing this debate any furthur until
> you stop snipping away all the stuff that you can't debate in a
> intelligent and rational manner.

Excessive snippage? Taking out the relevant parts?
Mikey...the part I was referring to, "but since they reportedly weren't even
armed", was obviously left in, as you can see above. And that is an
absolutely false assertation.

The rest of your post dealt with your 'preemptive strike', to which I also
referrered.

Did you have anything else to say?

Pete

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 05:44 AM

> "Pete" > wrote:

>Excessive snippage? Taking out the relevant parts?

[snip snip snip snip...]

Yep! Two can play your "snippity snip" game.

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 06:14 AM

>"Pete" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Yep! Two can play your "snippity snip" game.

>You can dance around all you wan...

[snip snip snip]

See how easy that was, snippey?

Pete

March 1st 04, 06:15 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> > "Pete" > wrote:
>
> >Excessive snippage? Taking out the relevant parts?
>
> [snip snip snip snip...]
>
> Yep! Two can play your "snippity snip" game.

You can dance around all you want, Mikey. But that doesn't disguise the fact
that you are absolutely and completely wrong.

So, were the two F-15's from Otis, and the two F-16's from Langley, armed or
not?

Pete

Pete

March 1st 04, 06:32 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Pete" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >>Yep! Two can play your "snippity snip" game.
>
> >You can dance around all you wan...
>
> [snip snip snip]
>
> See how easy that was, snippey?

Whatever, Mikey.

Pete

B2431

March 1st 04, 07:23 AM

>From: Mike Marron

<snip>

>Airborne in "4-minutes" is all hunky dory but since they reportedly
>weren't even armed, what were the fighters gonna do if they merged
>with the hijacked airliners -- RAM 'em?

Try some aerodynamics, the fighter puts his wing over the wing tip of the
airliner without touching and the airliner will roll in that direction. That's
one of the ways Hurricanes took out V-1s. It helped that the V-1 didn't have
the capability to self right, but you may be able to get the idea if you think
hard enough. If that doesn't work THEN you ram. One F-16 pilot versus how many
on the ground?

Now, try giving us exact examples of how the Air Force mission was to stop
9/11. Stop giving us "they should have known." All that proves is how you have
no idea what the USAF actually does.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

John Keeney

March 1st 04, 08:45 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Pete" > wrote:
>
> >Pete
> >Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice.
>
> Pot Kettle Black.
>
> Run away, insult, or answer the actual question. Your choice. Are you
> saying that the USAF is exempt from sharing any blame for 9/11?
>
> Please answer with a simple "yea" or "nay" right here -->___ yes ____

Rob van Riel

March 1st 04, 10:38 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...
> If you didn't fight in WW II do you feel as though your had missed something?
> Do you feel that given your druthers you'd rather have been there than not? Any
> regrets at having missed it? Anyone?

I consider myself extremely fortunate that I've never been part of any
war. War is something to avoid, no long for.

Rob

Cub Driver

March 1st 04, 10:44 AM

>" to this day I too am confounded by the apparent
>ineptness of the USAF (and especially the American intelligence
>community) both of whom utterly failed to prevent the apocalyptic
>death and destruction of 9/11."

This is the way you do it:

1) If the USAF, the "intelligence community," and especially the
president don't succeed in stopping terrorist attacks, you blame their
inepitude.

2) If they do succeed in stopping terrorist attacks, you blame them
for instrusive measures against an unreal enemy.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 02:06 PM

>Cub Driver > wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>" to this day I too am confounded by the apparent
>>ineptness of the USAF (and especially the American intelligence
>>community) both of whom utterly failed to prevent the apocalyptic
>>death and destruction of 9/11."

>This is the way you do it:

>1) If the USAF, the "intelligence community," and especially the
>president don't succeed in stopping terrorist attacks, you blame their
>inepitude.

Correct. It all boils down to exactly that. The air force, in
addition to the army, navy, marine corps and coast guard along
with the vast array of civilian intelligence and national security
agencies are all paid good money to defend the U.S. Afterall,
that be their jobs, man. But all of the above completely and totally
failed to do that on 9/11. Now, had they succeeded in stopping the
terrorist attacks on 9/11 we would all be singing their praises still
to this day. Oh well...ya' win some and ya lose some.

>2) If they do succeed in stopping terrorist attacks, you blame them
>for instrusive measures against an unreal enemy.

Incorrect. No terrorist attacks on American soil in more than two
years is sierra hotel. Dubya & Co. has my vote in November.
Unfortunately, it won't bring back the 3,000 American lives that
were slaughtered on 9/11.

Keith Willshaw

March 1st 04, 02:38 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >Cub Driver > wrote:
> >>Mike Marron wrote:
>
> >>" to this day I too am confounded by the apparent
> >>ineptness of the USAF (and especially the American intelligence
> >>community) both of whom utterly failed to prevent the apocalyptic
> >>death and destruction of 9/11."
>
> >This is the way you do it:
>
> >1) If the USAF, the "intelligence community," and especially the
> >president don't succeed in stopping terrorist attacks, you blame their
> >inepitude.
>
> Correct. It all boils down to exactly that. The air force, in
> addition to the army, navy, marine corps and coast guard along
> with the vast array of civilian intelligence and national security
> agencies are all paid good money to defend the U.S. Afterall,
> that be their jobs, man. But all of the above completely and totally
> failed to do that on 9/11. Now, had they succeeded in stopping the
> terrorist attacks on 9/11 we would all be singing their praises still
> to this day. Oh well...ya' win some and ya lose some.
>

True enough but the issue is what was the nature of the failure ?

The primary agency responsible for defense against international
terrorism within the USA prior to Sept 11 was presumably the
FBI with the CIA being responsible for collecting such intelligence
overseas as may indicate foreign agencies involved

As an outsider it seems to me that it was those two agencies
along with the INS that failed to identify the nature of the
threat and the individuals involved. Had they given the USAF
a timely warning then by all means blame that body but they
clearly did not and the USAF would be heavily criticised if
it tried to usurp the functions of either the CIA or FBI.

Keith

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 03:01 PM

>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Correct. It all boils down to exactly that. The air force, in
>>addition to the army, navy, marine corps and coast guard along
>>with the vast array of civilian intelligence and national security
>>agencies are all paid good money to defend the U.S. Afterall,
>>that be their jobs, man. But all of the above completely and totally
>>failed to do that on 9/11. Now, had they succeeded in stopping the
>>terrorist attacks on 9/11 we would all be singing their praises still
>>to this day. Oh well...ya' win some and ya lose some.

>True enough but the issue is what was the nature of the failure ?

>The primary agency responsible for defense against international
>terrorism within the USA prior to Sept 11 was presumably the
>FBI with the CIA being responsible for collecting such intelligence
>overseas as may indicate foreign agencies involved

>As an outsider it seems to me that it was those two agencies
>along with the INS that failed to identify the nature of the
>threat and the individuals involved. Had they given the USAF
>a timely warning then by all means blame that body but they
>clearly did not and the USAF would be heavily criticised if
>it tried to usurp the functions of either the CIA or FBI.

Plenty of folks, including myself, know that there's plenty of blame
to go around for the 9/11 massacre. The obvious failures of the CIA,
FBI, INS, etc. aside, the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
involved with counterterrorism operations.

George Ruch

March 1st 04, 06:50 PM

(B2431) wrote:

>>From: George Ruch
>
>>
>>Mike Marron > wrote:
>>
>>>> (B2431) wrote:
>>>
>>>>I didn't say a word to you yet you felt the need to say this?
>>>
>>>Just thought you should know that this ain't your hometown VFW hall
>>>where old farts like you and Kramer/Autocollimator sit around getting
>>>older and older and better and better.
>>
>>Jealous because you don't qualify?
>>
>>>>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>>
>>>BFD.
>>
>>As Art said, Where were you and what did you do?
>>
>>George Ruch
>>MSgt, USAF, Ret.
>>
>
>He was sitting warm and safe at home believing his father's war stories made
>him knowledgable about the USAF mission. Do a google search on marron and his
>accusations that the USAF was responsible for 9/11.
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

That would explain. Sometimes I despair for the human race...

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

Jack

March 1st 04, 06:56 PM

On 3/1/04 9:01 AM, in article ,
"Mike Marron" > wrote:

> ... the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
> the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
> Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
> involved with counterterrorism operations.

There was no lack of information available to the agencies which had the
direct responsibility for enforcement and apprehension. They simply failed
to follow through on what they already knew.

The USAF has no culpability such as you describe.

Perhaps you should retire to the shop and fiddle with greasy parts.
Disassembly must be your strong point.

Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 06:57 PM

>George Ruch > wrote:

>That would explain. Sometimes I despair for the human race...

Obviously I struck a nerve, huh? Maybe the bartend down at your local
VFW hall will lend ya his shoulder to cry on...

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 07:13 PM

>Jack > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>> ... the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
>> the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
>> Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
>> involved with counterterrorism operations.

>There was no lack of information available to the agencies which had the
>direct responsibility for enforcement and apprehension. They simply failed
>to follow through on what they already knew.

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.

>The USAF has no culpability such as you describe.

That's just your opinion (and you do know what they say about
opinions?)

B2431

March 1st 04, 07:30 PM

>From: Mike Marron
>Date: 3/1/2004 12:57 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>George Ruch > wrote:
>
>>That would explain. Sometimes I despair for the human race...
>
>Obviously I struck a nerve, huh? Maybe the bartend down at your local
>VFW hall will lend ya his shoulder to cry on...
>

Marron, please stop bashing veterans. I don't know why you never served and
frankly I don't care, but enough with the military and veteran bashing.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Keith Willshaw

March 1st 04, 07:31 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >Jack > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >> ... the Air Force must also accept its fair share of
> >> the blame since highly trained and well-paid Air Force Intelligence,
> >> Surveillance, and Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists are heavily
> >> involved with counterterrorism operations.
>
> >There was no lack of information available to the agencies which had the
> >direct responsibility for enforcement and apprehension. They simply
failed
> >to follow through on what they already knew.
>
> Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
> against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
> thing.
>

Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF, blame
the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
subject before Sept 11 2001

Keith

George Ruch

March 1st 04, 07:45 PM

Mike Marron > wrote:

>>George Ruch > wrote:
>
>>That would explain. Sometimes I despair for the human race...
>
>Obviously I struck a nerve, huh? Maybe the bartend down at your local
>VFW hall will lend ya his shoulder to cry on...

PLONK!
/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 07:49 PM

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 07:58 PM

> (B2431) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>Obviously I struck a nerve, huh? Maybe the bartend down at your local
>>VFW hall will lend ya his shoulder to cry on...

>Marron, please stop bashing veterans. I don't know why you never served and
>frankly I don't care, but enough with the military and veteran bashing.

Not bashing vets, sergeant dan. Just pointing out that, contrary to
what you think, this ain't your local VFW or American Legion hall so
one does not require prior military service in order to contribute.
In fact, 99.99999 percent of what sorry ass vets like you post, such
as this drivel of yours that I'm responding to right now, has
absolutely NOTHING to do with military aviation.

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 07:59 PM

>George Ruch > wrote:
>>Mike Marron > wrote:

>>Obviously I struck a nerve, huh? Maybe the bartend down at your local
>>VFW hall will lend ya his shoulder to cry on...

>PLONK!

Yep. Definitely struck a nerve there!

Jack

March 1st 04, 08:00 PM

On 3/1/04 1:13 PM, in article ,
"Mike Marron" > wrote:

> Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
> against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
> thing.

Talk to your hero Bill Clinton about that.

Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Keith Willshaw

March 1st 04, 08:03 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >> Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
> >> against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
> >> thing.
>
> >Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,
>
> The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
> make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
> BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
> the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.
>

The Army commander at Pearl Harbor was rightly blamed for
not acting on the warning passed to him by higher command
that war was imminent. If you have evidence of a similar failure
by the USAF prior to Sept 11 feel free to post it. I have seen none
so far..

> >blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
> >such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
> >subject before Sept 11 2001
>
> The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
> job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
> medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.
>

So you are merely exercising 20/20 hindsight, OK but who do you think
should have ordered airstrikes if not the US Government ?

Keith

Jack

March 1st 04, 08:05 PM

On 3/1/04 1:49 PM, in article ,
"Mike Marron" > wrote:

> The gathering and processing of intelligence never
> was a part of my job.

Clearly true.

> My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
> medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

Which qualifies you to do what exactly (beside comment on the difficulties
of living the life of a bottom feeder in the realm of professional
aviation)?

Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 09:22 PM

>Jack > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>The gathering and processing of intelligence never
>>was a part of my job.

>Clearly true.

Nor was it yours, clearly.

>>My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
>>medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

>Which qualifies you to do what exactly (beside comment on the difficulties
>of living the life of a bottom feeder in the realm of professional
>aviation)?

Shows how much YOU know about professional aviation (try flight
instructing someday and enjoy having roadkill for dinner every night).
But hey, as bad as it was (and occassionally still is) flying damn
sure beats working for a living!

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 09:45 PM

>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
>>against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
>>thing.

>Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,

>>The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
>>make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
>>BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
>>the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.

>The Army commander at Pearl Harbor was rightly blamed for
>not acting on the warning passed to him by higher command
>that war was imminent. If you have evidence of a similar failure
>by the USAF prior to Sept 11 feel free to post it. I have seen none
>so far..

That's because the jury's still out with regards to whose all to blame
for dropping the ball on 9/11. And I'm still curious as to whether or
not our interceptors that were scrambled on 9/11 were armed, or not?

>blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
>such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
>subject before Sept 11 2001

>>The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
>> job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
>> medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

>So you are merely exercising 20/20 hindsight,

Nobody predicted 9/11, but that doesn't mean that many of those
in the know didn't realize that a major terrorist attack was imminent.
I've stated numerous times already that civilians are primarily
responsible for "dropping the ball," however, I simply don't think the
military (that means any branch thereof) deserves a pass when it
comes to doling out the blame.

B2431

March 1st 04, 10:27 PM

>From: "Keith Willshaw"
>
>
>
>"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
>> >"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>>
>> >> Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
>> >> against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
>> >> thing.
>>
>> >Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,
>>
>> The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
>> make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
>> BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
>> the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.
>>
>
>The Army commander at Pearl Harbor was rightly blamed for
>not acting on the warning passed to him by higher command
>that war was imminent. If you have evidence of a similar failure
>by the USAF prior to Sept 11 feel free to post it. I have seen none
>so far..
>
>> >blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
>> >such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
>> >subject before Sept 11 2001
>>
>> The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
>> job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
>> medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.
>>
>
>So you are merely exercising 20/20 hindsight, OK but who do you think
>should have ordered airstrikes if not the US Government ?
>
>Keith
>
Keith, we tried this a couple of months ago. Marron has no idea how the Air
Force functions or what its mission is. If you press him on what we should have
done he has no answers. He just doesn't understand we had no one to
pre-emptively strike nor does he understand the Air Force has no authority to
spy on or bomb anyone they choose. Furthermore he has no comprehension his
claims and attacks on the military in general, USAF in particular, VA, VFW etc
are all baseless. All you will get is personal attacks or comments about RAM is
not a VFW drinking party. He has also not noticed that no one has attacked his
education/training/flying experience or ratings.

A simple google search will prove all this.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 10:38 PM

> (B2431) wrote:

>Marron has no idea how the Air Force functions or what its mission is.

Ooops, I thought you wanted to play nice? Guess not huh sarge?
You didn't even know that Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and
Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists EXISTED, much less that they were
heavily involved in counterterrorist ops. With regards to how the Air
Force functions or what its mission is, obviously to YOU its function
was to simply provide you with three hots and and a cot until you put
in your time so that you could kick back in the Florida sunshine for
the remainder of your pathetic existance.

Keith Willshaw

March 1st 04, 10:40 PM

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Keith Willshaw"
> >

> Keith, we tried this a couple of months ago. Marron has no idea how the
Air
> Force functions or what its mission is. If you press him on what we should
have
> done he has no answers. He just doesn't understand we had no one to
> pre-emptively strike nor does he understand the Air Force has no authority
to
> spy on or bomb anyone they choose. Furthermore he has no comprehension his
> claims and attacks on the military in general, USAF in particular, VA, VFW
etc
> are all baseless. All you will get is personal attacks or comments about
RAM is
> not a VFW drinking party. He has also not noticed that no one has attacked
his
> education/training/flying experience or ratings.
>

True enough.

Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
services started taking military action without orders from the
Government.

Keith

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 10:44 PM

>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:

>Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
>services started taking military action without orders from the
>Government.

Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
try, though. ;))

George Z. Bush

March 1st 04, 11:03 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >Jack > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >>The gathering and processing of intelligence never
> >>was a part of my job.
>
> >Clearly true.
>
> Nor was it yours, clearly.
>
> >>My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
> >>medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.
>
> >Which qualifies you to do what exactly (beside comment on the difficulties
> >of living the life of a bottom feeder in the realm of professional
> >aviation)?
>
> Shows how much YOU know about professional aviation (try flight
> instructing someday and enjoy having roadkill for dinner every night).
> But hey, as bad as it was (and occassionally still is) flying damn
> sure beats working for a living!

Funny you should say that. I know a guy who thought that way for the 15 ks a
year or so that he made flying those checks around in all kinds of wx. After
his accident, he kind of developed a different attitude about it. One of the
reasons was that he pretty much had to find some other way to buy the groceries
because he was devoted to eating, could no longer pass his flight physical, and
he couldn't get his folks to foot that kind of bill for him.

So now he's an RN and, aside from the seamier aspects of his job, like wiping an
occasional behind or two for patients who're too sick to do it for themselves,
he works twice as hard as he ever did when he was a heroic and adventurous
flyboy and earns three times as much and then some.

Not only that, but he sometimes mentions that his Mom and Dad still look on him
as a hero even though he no longer displays that "wild blue yonder" stare that
we old farts all tried to copy from the recruiting posters during those days
when our hearts were young and gay (in the old fashioned non-sexual sense).
(*-*)))

George Z.

Keith Willshaw

March 1st 04, 11:14 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>
> >Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
> >services started taking military action without orders from the
> >Government.
>
> Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
> should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
> try, though. ;))
>

Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.

Keith

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 11:18 PM

>"George Z. Bush" > wrote:
>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:

>>Shows how much YOU know about professional aviation (try flight
>>instructing someday and enjoy having roadkill for dinner every night).
>>But hey, as bad as it was (and occassionally still is) flying damn
>>sure beats working for a living!

>Funny you should say that. I know a guy who thought that way for the 15 ks a
>year or so that he made flying those checks around in all kinds of wx. After
>his accident, he kind of developed a different attitude about it. One of the
>reasons was that he pretty much had to find some other way to buy the groceries
>because he was devoted to eating, could no longer pass his flight physical, and
>he couldn't get his folks to foot that kind of bill for him.

>So now he's an RN and, aside from the seamier aspects of his job, like wiping an
>occasional behind or two for patients who're too sick to do it for themselves,
>he works twice as hard as he ever did when he was a heroic and adventurous
>flyboy and earns three times as much and then some.

>Not only that, but he sometimes mentions that his Mom and Dad still look on him
>as a hero even though he no longer displays that "wild blue yonder" stare that
>we old farts all tried to copy from the recruiting posters during those days
>when our hearts were young and gay (in the old fashioned non-sexual sense).
>(*-*)))

My wife happens to be an ICU/CCU nurse but you couldn't pay me enough
$$$ to do what *she* does for a living (urk!)

Great story George ;))

Mike Marron

March 1st 04, 11:29 PM

>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:

>>Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
>>services started taking military action without orders from the
>>Government.

>Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
>should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
>try, though. ;))

>Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.

Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
"appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
yourself. OK?

Pete

March 2nd 04, 12:06 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Mike Marron" > wrote:

> >Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.
>
> Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
> who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
> initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
> postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
> the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
> "appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
> on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
> forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
> yourself. OK?

Throughtout this, and the previous thread, you fail to call the 'government'
to task for not ordering your 'preemptive airstrikes'. You do, however, call
the Air Force to task for not conducting those strikes.

When asked "What could the Air Force have done differently?", you introduce
the idea of preemptive strikes. The USAF is not in the business of
conducting unilateral preemptive strikes. Thay are in the business of
conducting whatever the administration asks for.

You also repeatedly use the term "on 9/11".

As in:
"Let's just hope and pray the USAF never ever "functions" again like it
did back on Sept 11, 2001."

"The USAF, in addition to the USN, Army and Marine
Corps along with the various civilian intelligence and national
security agencies completely and totally failed to defend the
good ol' U.S. of A. on 11 Sept, 2001."

"my contention is simply that the USAF, along with the
various civilian U.S. intelligence agencies, dropped the ball BIG time
on 9/11."

There would seem to be two different environments for action. 'Pre-9/11'
(intel, and your presumed 'preemptive strikes'), and 'on 9/11' (as events
were happening). The two are not the same.

The above statements (by you) seem to point to a failing during the latter.

True?

Pete
Sscreech, ignore, or respond in a rational manner. Your choice.

George Z. Bush

March 2nd 04, 04:17 AM

Mike Marron wrote:
>> "George Z. Bush" > wrote:
>>> "Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
>>> Shows how much YOU know about professional aviation (try flight
>>> instructing someday and enjoy having roadkill for dinner every night).
>>> But hey, as bad as it was (and occassionally still is) flying damn
>>> sure beats working for a living!
>
>> Funny you should say that. I know a guy who thought that way for the 15 ks a
>> year or so that he made flying those checks around in all kinds of wx. After
>> his accident, he kind of developed a different attitude about it. One of the
>> reasons was that he pretty much had to find some other way to buy the
>> groceries because he was devoted to eating, could no longer pass his flight
>> physical, and he couldn't get his folks to foot that kind of bill for him.
>
>> So now he's an RN and, aside from the seamier aspects of his job, like
>> wiping an occasional behind or two for patients who're too sick to do it for
>> themselves, he works twice as hard as he ever did when he was a heroic and
>> adventurous flyboy and earns three times as much and then some.
>
>> Not only that, but he sometimes mentions that his Mom and Dad still look on
>> him as a hero even though he no longer displays that "wild blue yonder"
>> stare that we old farts all tried to copy from the recruiting posters during
>> those days when our hearts were young and gay (in the old fashioned
>> non-sexual sense). (*-*)))
>
> My wife happens to be an ICU/CCU nurse but you couldn't pay me enough
> $$$ to do what *she* does for a living (urk!)
>
> Great story George ;))

Thanks. Sometimes, I get on a roll and enjoy seeing what I am thinking appear
in print on my bubble machine. It's even better when somebody else also says
that they enjoy it as well. Thanks again.

George Z.

John Keeney

March 2nd 04, 04:47 AM

From: "Mike Marron" >
> >"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
> >>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>
> >> Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
> >> against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
> >> thing.
>
> >Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,
>
> The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
> make those decisions.

Those resources are directed outside of the Air Force as to what
to gather. Going beyond those directions would get them slapped
down as surely as not going as far.

>You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone BUT the Air Force if you wish,

I don't. I don't blame the Navy, Marines, Army or Coast Guard either.
Which is not to say I blame the, oh, Indiana State Police or the
Center for Disease Control.

>but that's like blaming everyone BUT the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.

I don't blame them either. The blame lies fully above their pay grade.

> >blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
> >such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
> >subject before Sept 11 2001

You might not recall them, but I certainly castigated Bill for the lack.

> The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
> job.

Naw, you don't say...

>My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
> medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.

Must be your fault for not reporting the lack of security then.

Bob McKellar

March 2nd 04, 04:58 AM

"George Z. Bush" wrote:

> >> Funny you should say that. I know a guy who thought that way for the 15 ks a
> >> year or so that he made flying those checks around in all kinds of wx. After
> >> his accident, he kind of developed a different attitude about it. One of the
> >> reasons was that he pretty much had to find some other way to buy the
> >> groceries because he was devoted to eating, could no longer pass his flight
> >> physical, and he couldn't get his folks to foot that kind of bill for him.
> >
> >> So now he's an RN and, aside from the seamier aspects of his job, like
> >> wiping an occasional behind or two for patients who're too sick to do it for
> >> themselves, he works twice as hard as he ever did when he was a heroic and
> >> adventurous flyboy and earns three times as much and then some.
> >
> >> Not only that, but he sometimes mentions that his Mom and Dad still look on
> >> him as a hero even though he no longer displays that "wild blue yonder"
> >> stare that we old farts all tried to copy from the recruiting posters during
> >> those days when our hearts were young and gay (in the old fashioned
> >> non-sexual sense). (*-*)))
> >
>
>
> George Z.

Actually, you know his Mom & Dad rather well, don't you?

Bob McKellar

B2431

March 2nd 04, 05:12 AM

>From: Mike Marron

>
>> (B2431) wrote:
>
>>Marron has no idea how the Air Force functions or what its mission is.
>
>Ooops, I thought you wanted to play nice? Guess not huh sarge?
>You didn't even know that Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and
>Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists EXISTED, much less that they were
>heavily involved in counterterrorist ops. With regards to how the Air
>Force functions or what its mission is, obviously to YOU its function
>was to simply provide you with three hots and and a cot until you put
>in your time so that you could kick back in the Florida sunshine for
>the remainder of your pathetic existance.
Once again you resort to personal attacks.

As for intel and recon neither the USAF nor any other branch is permitted to do
this contrary to U.S. policy. The military does NOT make this policy. Any
commander who had his men violate said policy was subject to discipline.

As for knowing what "specialists existed" all I ever had to do was read USAF
publications which I did. Photo recon and its derivatice AFSCs has never been
classified.

I made no personal attack, it is evident you don't understand how the USAF
works, so please act like a mature adult.

As for how I wound up in Florida I was assigned to special ops for the last 14
years I was in. Think Hurlburt, Duke and Eglin. As for those "counterterrorist
ops" I was there and you weren't.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Keith Willshaw

March 2nd 04, 07:58 AM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Mike Marron" > wrote:
> >>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>
> >>Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
> >>services started taking military action without orders from the
> >>Government.
>
> >Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
> >should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
> >try, though. ;))
>
> >Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.
>
> Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
> who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
> initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
> postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
> the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
> "appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
> on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
> forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
> yourself. OK?
>

So you are keen on words , lets review some of YOURS.
When asked WHY the USAF was culpable you replied

"Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing."

These are the black parts you typed stating that the USAF
should have taken military action. If they had orders
from the Government to do so and failed they would be derelict.
In the absence of such orders they are not.

Keith

Stephen Harding

March 2nd 04, 12:50 PM

Mike Marron wrote:

>>"Mike Marron" > wrote:
>>
>>>"Keith Willshaw" > wrote:
>
>>>Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
>>>services started taking military action without orders from the
>>>Government.
>
>>Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
>>should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
>>try, though. ;))
>
>>Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.
>
> Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
> who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
> initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
> postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
> the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
> "appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
> on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
> forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
> yourself. OK?

Well I confess to being in the same boat of confusion over
what you've written.

Perhaps if I don't read the black parts of the sentence along
with the white, it will all begin to make sense.

SMH

Ron

March 2nd 04, 05:00 PM

>Which qualifies you to do what exactly (beside comment on the difficulties
>of living the life of a bottom feeder in the realm of professional
>aviation)?
>

I will have to take exception with classifying freight dogs as bottom feeders.
While it doesnt have the pay of major airliner flying, nor any of the other
benefits and nice aircraft, they are still pilots nonetheless, who are usually
working hard to move up into other aspects of aviation. "Bottom feeder" gives
somewhat of a parasitic, or low class characterization of them. That attitude
is what reinforces stereotypes of big iron pilots as thinking they are better
than other pilots, and just too good to be sullied by being around pilots of
lesser aircraft.

Fact is, I would put the IFR skills and knowledge of a check flying freight
dog, against any big iron pilot, and the small box freight pilot is going to
come out on top.

I do not think it serves anyones purposes to belittle the guys who are up all
night, or day flying the small freight around the country. They certainly work
a lot harder than the guys who fly the big iron, and if they have a gripe, they
are certainly going to have a lot more reason to do so. I think all
professional pilots should treat each other as professionals and collegues,
regardless of aircraft size.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

March 2nd 04, 05:11 PM

Ron wrote:
> Fact is, I would put the IFR skills and knowledge of a check flying freight
> dog, against any big iron pilot, and the small box freight pilot is going to
> come out on top.

Ditto. As a former freight dog/courier pilot/charter pilot, I was expected to
fly every day, Monday-Friday regardless of weather. I was also flying at times
aircraft that were the state of the art the year I was born. There was no
climbing out of weather; you were in it for the entire flight... unlike heavy
iron pilots who often log one or two tenths on each end of a leg in IFR but
spend the majority of the flight in clear air. No auto pilot or copilot
either... you were PIC and if you didn't do it, it didn't get done.

I developed some pretty outstanding IFR skills. I also flew about 2500 of my
2600 hours as pilot in command. I have a buddy who flies jets for a commuter.
He's got more time than me now but almost all of his time is either as a primary
instructor or as a copilot. He keeps looking for the next job rather than
sticking around long enough to make captain. I think he's gotten too
comfortable allowing somebody else to make his decisions for him, but I digress.

I believe you'll find most freight pilots are working towards a goal. Flying
freight ain't it. But you can't buy the skills developed flying freight with
cash....

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

Mike Marron

March 3rd 04, 12:54 AM

> (Ron) wrote:

>I will have to take exception with classifying freight dogs as bottom feeders.
>While it doesnt have the pay of major airliner flying, nor any of the other
>benefits and nice aircraft, they are still pilots nonetheless, who are usually
>working hard to move up into other aspects of aviation. "Bottom feeder" gives
>somewhat of a parasitic, or low class characterization of them. That attitude
>is what reinforces stereotypes of big iron pilots as thinking they are better
>than other pilots, and just too good to be sullied by being around pilots of
>lesser aircraft.

>Fact is, I would put the IFR skills and knowledge of a check flying freight
>dog, against any big iron pilot, and the small box freight pilot is going to
>come out on top.

>I do not think it serves anyones purposes to belittle the guys who are up all
>night, or day flying the small freight around the country. They certainly work
>a lot harder than the guys who fly the big iron, and if they have a gripe, they
>are certainly going to have a lot more reason to do so. I think all
>professional pilots should treat each other as professionals and collegues,
>regardless of aircraft size.

I'm no longer a freight dog, but as you know I still fly trikes --the
Great Equalizers. In other words, any talented person with no prior
flight experience can learn to fly a trike and effortlessly outfly
pilots with thousands of hours in "big iron" and "fast jets" flying
the same.

Two years ago I flat out refused to train Bob Wall, a retired Lt. Col.
and former F-100 jock because of his "holier than thou" attitude. He
then attempted to train himself and predictably died on his very first
flight.

Last year another former jock (F-15) and AF test pilot school grad I
knew also killed himself in a trike. The previous year I attended Sun
'N Fun with "Witch" and his buddy whom had flown down together
to learn more about trikes. Two minutes after meeting the guy I could
tell that the guy was an accident just waiting to happen. Well, it did
happen and "Witch" left behind a wife and three young sons.

The bottom line is that not only would I put the IFR skills and
knowledge of a check flying freight dog up against any "big iron"
pilot, but I'd also put the motor skills, sheer "seat-of-the-pants"
flying skills and lightning quick reflexes of a good trike pilot up
against any "fast jet" pilot.

Ron

March 3rd 04, 01:50 AM

>The bottom line is that not only would I put the IFR skills and
>knowledge of a check flying freight dog up against any "big iron"
>pilot, but I'd also put the motor skills, sheer "seat-of-the-pants"
>flying skills and lightning quick reflexes of a good trike pilot up
>against any "fast jet" pilot.

But I would also think that a trike pilot and a fast mover pilot are going to
have two different skill sets to bring to the table. I can see both types of
flying as requiring fast skills and frequent flying in order to maintain
proficiency so one doesnt mort oneself.

You can have lightning fast reflexes in a type of plane, and really screw it up
in another, much like the Navy fighter pilot who was doing a go around in a
single engine cessna just above the runway, and did exactly like he was
supposed to in the fighter.

Left hand forward, right hand back.

Its just that unfortunately unlike in the fighter, his left hand was on the
yoke and right hand was on the throttle.

Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

Mike Marron

March 3rd 04, 02:40 AM

(Ron) wrote:
>>Mike Marron wrote:

>>The bottom line is that not only would I put the IFR skills and
>>knowledge of a check flying freight dog up against any "big iron"
>>pilot, but I'd also put the motor skills, sheer "seat-of-the-pants"
>>flying skills and lightning quick reflexes of a good trike pilot up
>>against any "fast jet" pilot.

>But I would also think that a trike pilot and a fast mover pilot are going to
>have two different skill sets to bring to the table. I can see both types of
>flying as requiring fast skills and frequent flying in order to maintain
>proficiency so one doesnt mort oneself.

True. The main difference is that the fast mover pilot needs to
multi-task between the flying and switchology parts whereas the
trike pilot simply needs to concentrate of the flying part.

But because trikes are so light, they're infinitely more susceptible
to turbulence and wind and if you happen to get caught out while on a
cross country, just getting back down on the ground in one piece often
leaves you both physically and mentally exhausted.

Of course, in calm air your 90--year old grandmother can fly a trike,
but that's what makes them so dangerous (i.e: the "Jekyll and Hyde"
aspect).

The winds were kicking up pretty good the day "Witch" died (the
former F-15 pilot), but he also made the fatal error of attempting
a dead-stick landing in inclement weather with his engine
*intentionally* shut down!

When a honking gust of wind grabbed the wing he became a mere
passenger, helplessly going along for the ride. Had he not shut
down the engine, he probably could havepowered out of the situation
as that's one of the reasons trikes areequipped with a foot throttle
(like an accelerator on a car) so that you can instantaneously make
power adjustments while simultaneously using both arms to wrestle
the beast down.

>You can have lightning fast reflexes in a type of plane, and really screw it up
>in another, much like the Navy fighter pilot who was doing a go around in a
>single engine cessna just above the runway, and did exactly like he was
>supposed to in the fighter.

>Left hand forward, right hand back.

>Its just that unfortunately unlike in the fighter, his left hand was on the
>yoke and right hand was on the throttle.

Yep. I remember that incident (IIRC, it was discussed on this NG
some time ago).