How accurate was B-26 bombing?

[ArtKramr]

Go to my website to the section titled, "MISSIONS AND RESULTS". Click on "The
Bridge at Verberie" then" Wurzburg" to see how effective we were. Then peruse
the other 10 strike photos to get a good idea of precision bombing at its best.
The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle barrel from
10,000 feet.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Jack]

On 2/28/04 12:25 PM, in article
, "ArtKramr" >
wrote:

> The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle barrel
> from 10,000 feet.

Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of several
aircraft string them out a little? In another post you told us how easy it
was from tem thousand feet -- "point blank" you said. Don't tell me they
gave out any medals for the Bridge at Verberie: it would have been
unsportsmanlike to accept one if that was true.


Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[BUFDRVR]

>Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of several
>aircraft string them out a little?

No, no...each and every B-26 hit (within todays "Near-PGM" criteria of 10
meters) with each one of its bombs. Haven't you read Art before?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Bob's Your Uncle]

"BUFDRVR" < wrote in message
>> No, no...each and every B-26 hit (within todays "Near-PGM" criteria of 10
> meters) with each one of its bombs. Haven't you read Art before?
We all read him wearing hipboots! :-)

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: Jack
>Date: 2/28/04 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 2/28/04 12:25 PM, in article
, "ArtKramr" >
>wrote:
>
>> The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle barrel
>> from 10,000 feet.
>
>Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of several
>aircraft string them out a little? In another post you told us how easy it
>was from tem thousand feet -- "point blank" you said. Don't tell me they
>gave out any medals for the Bridge at Verberie: it would have been
>unsportsmanlike to accept one if that was true.
>
Nope. No medals.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 2/28/04 6:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of several
>>aircraft string them out a little?
>
>No, no...each and every B-26 hit (within todays "Near-PGM" criteria of 10
>meters) with each one of its bombs. Haven't you read Art before?
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"


Can we see some of your strike photos?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
> >From: Jack
> >Date: 2/28/04 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >On 2/28/04 12:25 PM, in article
> , "ArtKramr"
>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle
barrel
> >> from 10,000 feet.
> >
> >Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of
several
> >aircraft string them out a little? In another post you told us how easy
it
> >was from tem thousand feet -- "point blank" you said. Don't tell me they
> >gave out any medals for the Bridge at Verberie: it would have been
> >unsportsmanlike to accept one if that was true.
> >
> Nope. No medals.

Did you ever get a purple heart for a band aid scratch like John Kerry?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
>Date: 2/29/04 5:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"BUFDRVR" < wrote in message
>>> No, no...each and every B-26 hit (within todays "Near-PGM" criteria of 10
>> meters) with each one of its bombs. Haven't you read Art before?
> We all read him wearing hipboots! :-)
>
>

Can we see some of your strike photos?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: Jack
>Date: 2/28/04 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>On 2/28/04 12:25 PM, in article
, "ArtKramr" >
>wrote:
>
>> The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle barrel
>> from 10,000 feet.
>
>Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of several
>aircraft string them out a little? In another post you told us how easy it
>was from tem thousand feet -- "point blank" you said. Don't tell me they
>gave out any medals for the Bridge at Verberie: it would have been
>unsportsmanlike to accept one if that was true.
>
>
> Jack

No medals just pride of workmanship. To see what was going on around us in the
air click on "FLAK" and "ONE WENT DOWN".


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 2/28/04 6:47 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of several
>>aircraft string them out a little?
>
>No, no...each and every B-26 hit (within todays "Near-PGM" criteria of 10
>meters) with each one of its bombs. Haven't you read Art before?
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"

I'm presenting photographic evidence. Whay are you presenting? Anything?



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?

> >
> >"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
> >harelips
> >everyone on Bear Creek"
>
> I'm presenting photographic evidence. Whay are you presenting? Anything?

Our falcon missiles won shooting competitions every year, but in practice
they did not measure up.

Buffdriver's credibility was vouched for by Mary Shafer, who was at the time
posting over a fraudulent signature file.

You know I am your friend Art, no matter how badly you troll these boys up.

My daddy needed that .50 at Bastogne.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/29/04 10:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>> >From: Jack
>> >Date: 2/28/04 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >On 2/28/04 12:25 PM, in article
>> , "ArtKramr"
>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle
>barrel
>> >> from 10,000 feet.
>> >
>> >Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of
>several
>> >aircraft string them out a little? In another post you told us how easy
>it
>> >was from tem thousand feet -- "point blank" you said. Don't tell me they
>> >gave out any medals for the Bridge at Verberie: it would have been
>> >unsportsmanlike to accept one if that was true.
>> >
>> Nope. No medals.
>
>Did you ever get a purple heart for a band aid scratch like John Kerry?
>
>
>

He got three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star and you never got a damn thing or
fired a shot in anger or ever saw the enemy. Right phony?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/29/04 10:20 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>
>> >
>> >"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>> >harelips
>> >everyone on Bear Creek"
>>
>> I'm presenting photographic evidence. Whay are you presenting? Anything?
>
>Our falcon missiles won shooting competitions every year, but in practice
>they did not measure up.
>
>Buffdriver's credibility was vouched for by Mary Shafer, who was at the time
>posting over a fraudulent signature file.
>
>You know I am your friend Art, no matter how badly you troll these boys up.
>
>My daddy needed that .50 at Bastogne.
>
>
And it was our pleasure to get that .50 ammo to your dad. We take pride in the
accomplishments of the brave men of the 101st and their incredible stand at
Bastogne. it was Americas finest hour.
And while we only provided air support and relief we feel that in a small way
we were part of it also.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 2/29/04 10:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
> >> >From: Jack
> >> >Date: 2/28/04 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >On 2/28/04 12:25 PM, in article
> >> , "ArtKramr"
> >
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle
> >barrel
> >> >> from 10,000 feet.
> >> >
> >> >Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of
> >several
> >> >aircraft string them out a little? In another post you told us how
easy
> >it
> >> >was from tem thousand feet -- "point blank" you said. Don't tell me
they
> >> >gave out any medals for the Bridge at Verberie: it would have been
> >> >unsportsmanlike to accept one if that was true.
> >> >
> >> Nope. No medals.
> >
> >Did you ever get a purple heart for a band aid scratch like John Kerry?
> >
> >
> >
>
> He got three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star and you never got a damn
thing or
> fired a shot in anger or ever saw the enemy. Right phony?

Once my brother was out with 1st Air Cav team as radioman and fell asleep
before they got to the jump site. The rotary wing had begun to roll so the
one of the othe seargents gave him a lift push. His AR went barrel first
into the ground and landed head first on the rifle butt, but he doesn't have
a purple heart.

John Kerry spent less than four months in Vietnam and may be a war criminal.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/29/04 11:49 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 2/29/04 10:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>> >> >From: Jack
>> >> >Date: 2/28/04 6:43 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> >Message-id: >
>> >> >
>> >> >On 2/28/04 12:25 PM, in article
>> >> , "ArtKramr"
>> >
>> >> >wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> The Bridge at Verberie is an example of putting a bomb in a pickle
>> >barrel
>> >> >> from 10,000 feet.
>> >> >
>> >> >Was that ONE bomb, Art, in that "pickle barrel", or did a flight of
>> >several
>> >> >aircraft string them out a little? In another post you told us how
>easy
>> >it
>> >> >was from tem thousand feet -- "point blank" you said. Don't tell me
>they
>> >> >gave out any medals for the Bridge at Verberie: it would have been
>> >> >unsportsmanlike to accept one if that was true.
>> >> >
>> >> Nope. No medals.
>> >
>> >Did you ever get a purple heart for a band aid scratch like John Kerry?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> He got three Purple Hearts and a Silver Star and you never got a damn
>thing or
>> fired a shot in anger or ever saw the enemy. Right phony?
>
>Once my brother was out with 1st Air Cav team as radioman and fell asleep
>before they got to the jump site. The rotary wing had begun to roll so the
>one of the othe seargents gave him a lift push. His AR went barrel first
>into the ground and landed head first on the rifle butt, but he doesn't have
>a purple heart.
>
>John Kerry spent less than four months in Vietnam and may be a war criminal.
>
>
The war criminal is in Washington DC and he never spent a day in Nam.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"

>
>Once my brother was out with 1st Air Cav team as radioman and fell asleep
>before they got to the jump site. The rotary wing had begun to roll so the
>one of the othe seargents gave him a lift push. His AR went barrel first
>into the ground and landed head first on the rifle butt, but he doesn't have
>a purple heart.
>

They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>
> >
> >Once my brother was out with 1st Air Cav team as radioman and fell asleep
> >before they got to the jump site. The rotary wing had begun to roll so
the
> >one of the othe seargents gave him a lift push. His AR went barrel first
> >into the ground and landed head first on the rifle butt, but he doesn't
have
> >a purple heart.
> >
>
> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.

That does not always seem to be the case.

[Bob's Your Uncle]

Ask Max Cleland!


> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[BUFDRVR]

>Can we see some of your strike photos?
>

Sure old man.

To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my formation
hit it first.

Before: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg

After:
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg

This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg

The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing you will
notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons are
going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at the
Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape. Unlike
you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons would
have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we pressed on.


The runway was shutdown for the remainder of the conflict, although Eagle
pilots flying around probably aided in shutting down flight ops there as much
as our weapons did.

Were you trying to make a point with your question?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 2/29/04 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time

>Can we see some of your strike photos?
>>
>
>Sure old man.
>
>To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my
>formation
>hit it first.
>
>Before: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg
>
>After:
>http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg
>
>This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
>http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg
>
>The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing you
>will
>notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons are
>going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at the
>Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
>anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape.
>Unlike
>you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons would
>have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we pressed
>on.
>
>
>The runway was shutdown for the remainder of the conflict, although Eagle
>pilots flying around probably aided in shutting down flight ops there as much
>as our weapons did.
>
>Were you trying to make a point with your question?
>
>
>BUFDRVR


YTHe point I was triyng to make was that we flew misison swith dumb bimbs that
were sometimes as accurate as mision flown today with smart bombs. I showed
youy the strike photos and you still say it never happened. Your hits look good
and as you say you are getting a very large dispersion, How many planes in how
tight a formation? Looks a bit loose. What was the intervelometer interval? We
tucked in wingtip to wing tip on the run. See the Wurzburg hits. Also see
"FLAK" and "ONE WENT DOWN" to gewt an idea what things were like in the air
while we were on our bomb runs. One more thing. I note that there was a hole in
the bomb pattern that left one bullding standing Someone out of formation or a
delay in a release?
Thanks for posting the hits. I love looking at strike photos and live for tight
patterns. Got any more? Post some more and I won't call you names anymore.
(grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >Date: 2/29/04 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >Can we see some of your strike photos?
> >>
> >
> >Sure old man.
> >
> >To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my
> >formation
> >hit it first.
> >
> >Before: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg
> >
> >After:
> >http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg
> >
> >This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
> >http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg
> >
> >The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing
you
> >will
> >notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons
are
> >going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at
the
> >Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
> >anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape.
> >Unlike
> >you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons
would
> >have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we
pressed
> >on.
> >
> >
> >The runway was shutdown for the remainder of the conflict, although Eagle
> >pilots flying around probably aided in shutting down flight ops there as
much
> >as our weapons did.
> >
> >Were you trying to make a point with your question?
> >
> >
> >BUFDRVR
>
>
> YTHe point I was triyng to make was that we flew misison swith dumb bimbs
that
> were sometimes as accurate as mision flown today with smart bombs.

LOL! Nope. Accuracy is usually guaged by CEP. Getting a single bomb, or two
or three, to hit the given aim point, while a laudable event, does not mean
that your strike was inherently accurate--because the other 200 bombs ended
up spread over a quarter section. Your CEP during WWII was abysmal compared
to that which was evidenced during Vietnam (with dumb bombs). Modern dumb
bomb delivery is much better than what you could have accomplished--toss in
PGM's and it's a whole new league altogether.

The B-26 was probably about as accurate as any level bomber could have been
during WWII in the ETO, largely due to the lower altitudes it typically
operated from (given that it had the same bomb sight as the B-17 and B-24,
that is about the only viable explanation). But even then it suffered its
fair share of bombs missing the aimpoint--the following is an account from a
USAAF crewmember who had been shot down and along with a couple of fellow
airmen was taken in by a brave French family until the allied advance later
mad it to their village:

"The next day, B-26 medium bombers bombed Chauny twice, once in the morning
and once in the afternoon. The station was almost destroyed along with many
buildings on rue Belmer, rue Amédé Evrard and rue Ferdinand Buisson."

The target for those missions was the railyard, not the buildings on those
streets within the village. A bombadier from the 386th Group recorded the
following results from the missions he flew in the B-26 in the ETO:

Results Unknown. We bombed through an overcast by Pathfinder.-- 1 time.
Mission Aborted. Due to bad weather or lack of fighter escort.------ 3
times.
Missed the Target -------------------------------------------------- 6
times.
Hit the Target. ------------------------------------------------------ 35
times.

So of the 45 missions they embarked upon they (allegedly--some exaggeration
was known to exist when it came to both bombing results and enemy aircraft
claims) "hit the target" 35 times. for a success rate of about 77%. If you
merely compare the "hits to misses" you get a success rate of 83%--again,
not bad, but not "we never missed", either. As the author's unit received a
Distinguished Unit Citation for, among other things, "maintaining the
highest bombing accuracy score" out of all of the B-26 groups serving in the
ETO, it would be hard to believe that Art's unit did *better* than what
these numbers indicate.

www.b26.com/html/people/ah/15.htm


In the PTO the B-26 did not apparently garner the same reputation for
comparative accuracy (the B-25 probably getting the laurels there among the
various medium/light bombers)--one account i read noted that troops referred
to the B-26 as the "coconut bomber", because they were alleged to be more
apt to hit innocent coconut palms than the Japanese targets they were
intended to strike.

Brooks

<snip>

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 2/29/04 3:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>> >From: (BUFDRVR)
>> >Date: 2/29/04 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>
>> >Can we see some of your strike photos?
>> >>
>> >
>> >Sure old man.
>> >
>> >To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my
>> >formation
>> >hit it first.
>> >
>> >Before: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg
>> >
>> >After:
>> >http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg
>> >
>> >This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
>> >http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg
>> >
>> >The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing
>you
>> >will
>> >notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons
>are
>> >going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at
>the
>> >Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
>> >anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape.
>> >Unlike
>> >you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons
>would
>> >have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we
>pressed
>> >on.
>> >
>> >
>> >The runway was shutdown for the remainder of the conflict, although Eagle
>> >pilots flying around probably aided in shutting down flight ops there as
>much
>> >as our weapons did.
>> >
>> >Were you trying to make a point with your question?
>> >
>> >
>> >BUFDRVR
>>
>>
>> YTHe point I was triyng to make was that we flew misison swith dumb bimbs
>that
>> were sometimes as accurate as mision flown today with smart bombs.
>
>LOL! Nope. Accuracy is usually guaged by CEP. Getting a single bomb, or two
>or three, to hit the given aim point, while a laudable event, does not mean
>that your strike was inherently accurate--because the other 200 bombs ended
>up spread over a quarter section. Your CEP during WWII was abysmal compared
>to that which was evidenced during Vietnam (with dumb bombs). Modern dumb

For a guy who spent his entire military career behind a desk in Ohio, you sure
have a good line of bull****.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: "Bob's Your Uncle"

>
>Ask Max Cleland!
>
>
>> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
Didn't he get tagged by his own grenade?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (B2431)
>Date: 2/29/04 4:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
>
>>
>>Ask Max Cleland!
>>
>>
>>> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
>>>
>>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>>
>Didn't he get tagged by his own grenade?
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired


In WW II you could only get a Purple Heart as a result of enemy action
providing the skin was broken.If you injured yourself no PH. it different now?




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
>
> >
> >Ask Max Cleland!
> >
> >
> >> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
> >>
> >> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >
> Didn't he get tagged by his own grenade?

Tagged, fragged, noone knows.

[Tank Fixer]

In article >,
on 01 Mar 2004 00:08:13 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
> >From: (B2431)
> >Date: 2/29/04 4:01 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >>From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
> >
> >>
> >>Ask Max Cleland!
> >>
> >>
> >>> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
> >>>
> >>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >>
> >Didn't he get tagged by his own grenade?
> >
> >Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
> In WW II you could only get a Purple Heart as a result of enemy action
> providing the skin was broken.If you injured yourself no PH. it different now?
>

No, but why bother trying to tell you . You won't listen.


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

[Bob McKellar]

B2431 wrote:

> >From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
>
> >
> >Ask Max Cleland!
> >
> >
> >> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
> >>
> >> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
> >
> Didn't he get tagged by his own grenade?
>
> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

No, the grenade was from another soldier. However, this was
indeed an accident, not enemy action, so I don't think he was
awarded the PH.

However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.

Bob McKellar, former Cleland constituent

[BUFDRVR]

>The point I was trying to make was that we flew missions with dumb bombs
>that
>were sometimes as accurate as missions flown today with smart bombs.

Were there *some* missions flown where *some* aircraft hit within 10 meters ?
Sure, but the laws of physics and bomb construction (particularly in the
1940's) mean that those strikes were as much about luck as the skill of the
aircrew. Even today, a gravity bomb hit within 30 feet is luck. Most honest
radar navs (or WSOs in the B-1B or Mission Commanders in the B-2) will tell you
they can get you down to 100 feet with skill, the rest is all luck. The mil
dispersion on a Mk-82 is .0025 (Did I get that right ??) which means for every
foot it travels, it'll move away from its "true trajectory" by 1/40 inch. If
your release distance is 35,000 feet, no matter how well you aim, your weapons
will tend to "wonder" by 87.5 feet (35,000 x .0025). So why is it possible to
"shack" a target with unguided weapons? Compensating errors. The RN aims 87.5
feet left and the drift tendancy (mil dispersion) of a majority of the weapons
is right. So...in summary, any strike you guys had in WWII that were inside of
10 meters, was luck.


>How many planes in how tight a formation?

2 jets typically, but during OAF, I was in a formation as large as 6 jets.
Formation spacing varies, but has no impact since each aircraft (if both are
striking the same target) independantly targets its weapons. In the case of
Batajanica, all you see are my weapons, my lead aircraft hit the second runway
which you can almost see in the upper left hand part of the imagery.

>Looks a bit loose. What was the intervelometer interval?

Loose? Hmm, thats 45 weapons, the interval was set to the min (.050) with the
externals timed to drop simultaneously. IIRC, it was a 700' train. That's about
as tight as it gets with 45 weapons. You can drop in RAPID mode and reduce your
train in about a half to a third, but this is not a common practice.

> I note that there was a hole in
>the bomb pattern that left one bullding standing Someone out of formation or
>a
>delay in a release?

Mil dispersion saves a single building. Chances are, anyone in it has white
hair and is deaf.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 2/29/04 6:55 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >

Thanks for the rundown

>Were there *some* missions flown where *some* aircraft hit within 10 meters ?
>Sure, but the laws of physics and bomb construction (particularly in the
>1940's) mean that those strikes were as much about luck as the skill of the

>aircrew. Even today, a gravity bomb hit within 30 feet is luck. Most honest
>radar navs (or WSOs in the B-1B or Mission Commanders in the B-2) will tell
>you
>they can get you down to 100 feet with skill, the rest is all luck. The mil
>dispersion on a Mk-82 is .0025 (Did I get that right ??) which means for

>every
>foot it travels, it'll move away from its "true trajectory" by 1/40 inch. If
>your release distance is 35,000 fee

>no matter how well you aim, your weapons
>will tend to "wonder" by 87.5 feet (35,000 x .0025). So why is it possible to
>"shack" a target with unguided weapons? Compensating errors. The RN aims 87.5

>feet left and the drift tendancy (mil dispersion) of a majority of the
>weapons
>is right. So...in summary, any strike you guys had in WWII that were inside
>of
>10 meters, was luck.

I am sure everuything uou say is true. But I stand by the strike photos on my
website whicxh as oiyu can see a lot of "shacks" were soc red under diffiut
coimvat ciditrions. Thg ephotos donlt lie>re
>striking the same target) independantly targets its weapons. In the case of
>Batajanica, all you see are my weapons, my lead aircraft hit the second
>runway
>which you can almost see in the upper left hand part of the imagery.
>

Yup. I inndersyand now. Looks good.

>I note that there was a hole in
>>the bomb pattern that left one bullding standing Someone out of formation or
>>a
>>delay in a release?

>Mil dispersion saves a single building. Chances are, anyone in it has white
>hair and is deaf.
>

Dead probably . I wasn't being critical, I just wanted to know. Thanks for the
info. I never did know how operations were done these days. A lot has changed.
But as I said I'llet the strike photos on my website speak for themselves for
everyone to see..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[B2431]

>From: Bob McKellar
>
>
>B2431 wrote:
>
>> >From: "Bob's Your Uncle"
>>
>> >
>> >Ask Max Cleland!
>> >
>> >
>> >> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
>> >>
>> >> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>> >
>> Didn't he get tagged by his own grenade?
>>
>> Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>No, the grenade was from another soldier. However, this was
>indeed an accident, not enemy action, so I don't think he was
>awarded the PH.
>
>However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
>action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.
>
>Bob McKellar, former Cleland constituent
>
All I remembered was that it was a fumbled grenade and didn't rate a purple
heart since it was "friendly fire."

Still, it must have been rough learning how to live with only one flipper.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 2/29/2004 3:59 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"B2431" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>>
>> >
>> >Once my brother was out with 1st Air Cav team as radioman and fell asleep
>> >before they got to the jump site. The rotary wing had begun to roll so
>the
>> >one of the othe seargents gave him a lift push. His AR went barrel first
>> >into the ground and landed head first on the rifle butt, but he doesn't
>have
>> >a purple heart.
>> >
>>
>> They don't give purple hearts for stupidity or clumsiness.
>
>That does not always seem to be the case.
>

Why, did you get one for being stupid or clumsy?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Kevin Brooks]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 2/29/04 3:31 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
> >> >From: (BUFDRVR)
> >> >Date: 2/29/04 2:13 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >>
> >> >Can we see some of your strike photos?
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Sure old man.
> >> >
> >> >To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my
> >> >formation
> >> >hit it first.
> >> >
> >> >Before: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg
> >> >
> >> >After:
> >> >http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg
> >> >
> >> >This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
> >> >http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg
> >> >
> >> >The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing
> >you
> >> >will
> >> >notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your
weapons
> >are
> >> >going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at
> >the
> >> >Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
> >> >anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad
shape.
> >> >Unlike
> >> >you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons
> >would
> >> >have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we
> >pressed
> >> >on.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >The runway was shutdown for the remainder of the conflict, although
Eagle
> >> >pilots flying around probably aided in shutting down flight ops there
as
> >much
> >> >as our weapons did.
> >> >
> >> >Were you trying to make a point with your question?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >BUFDRVR
> >>
> >>
> >> YTHe point I was triyng to make was that we flew misison swith dumb
bimbs
> >that
> >> were sometimes as accurate as mision flown today with smart bombs.
> >
> >LOL! Nope. Accuracy is usually guaged by CEP. Getting a single bomb, or
two
> >or three, to hit the given aim point, while a laudable event, does not
mean
> >that your strike was inherently accurate--because the other 200 bombs
ended
> >up spread over a quarter section. Your CEP during WWII was abysmal
compared
> >to that which was evidenced during Vietnam (with dumb bombs). Modern dumb
>
> For a guy who spent his entire military career behind a desk in Ohio, you
sure
> have a good line of bull****.

Firstly, I told you before, the only military duty I ever performed in Ohio
was serving as OIC of the funeral detail for some Ranger who wrapped his car
around a telephone pole outside FT Benning. No desk sitting was required, as
I was TDY from my post. Secondly, it is interesting that once again you
can't bring yourself to address the points raised-- especially from that
other B-26 bombadier who rather adroitly trashed your "we never missed" BS
(we see you are still having severe problems with that whole concept of
"truthfulness"). Thirdly, you plonked me earlier today (for about the third
time)...you forgot already?

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

[BUFDRVR]

>I am sure everything you say is true. But I stand by the strike photos on my
>
>website which as you can see a lot of "shacks" were scored under difficult
>coimbat conditions. The photos don't lie

How many B-26 dropped on the bridge? I've already said that *some* aircraft
will be able to get "shacks", but depending on your CEP, that percentage should
be no more than 20-25% (maybe less if your CEP is large enough). So...if you
fly a 100 aircraft raid up to as many as 25 aircraft (CEP depending) will shack
the target. *However*, another 25% will exceed your CEP by a magnitude of 2 for
every shack. Bottom line: You can't see CEP in one or even a dozen BDA photos.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Greg Hennessy]

On 01 Mar 2004 02:55:46 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:


>Mil dispersion saves a single building. Chances are, anyone in it has white
>hair and is deaf.
>

ROTFL! Frantically looking for clean underwear I would have thought.



greg

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 3/1/04 3:10 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>I am sure everything you say is true. But I stand by the strike photos on my
>>
>>website which as you can see a lot of "shacks" were scored under difficult
>>coimbat conditions. The photos don't lie
>
>How many B-26 dropped on the bridge? I've already said that *some* aircraft
>will be able to get "shacks", but depending on your CEP, that percentage
>should
>be no more than 20-25% (maybe less if your CEP is large enough). So...if you
>fly a 100 aircraft raid up to as many as 25 aircraft (CEP depending) will
>shack
>the target. *However*, another 25% will exceed your CEP by a magnitude of 2
>for
>every shack. Bottom line: You can't see CEP in one or even a dozen BDA
>photos.
>
>
>BUFDRVR


We flew a 56 plane formation. And while what you say is true the bottom line is
that we attacked the target and when we left it was destoyed as the photos
clearly show., What else is there? And I am sure as you pointed out luck is
involved, but you must admit we had an awful lot of luck. Maybe with all that
luck there was also a bit of skill involved as well. At least that was the
reputation of the 344th.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Tarver Engineering]

"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
...

>
> However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
> action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.

Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the
grenade himself.

[B2431]

>From: "Tarver Engineering"

>
>"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
...
>
>>
>> However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
>> action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.
>
>Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the
>grenade himself.
>

Tarver, once again you don't know what you are talking about. Cleland got his
silver star for actions four days before the grenade fumble. You don't get
silver stars for incidents of fratricide.

Cite: http://miller.senate.gov/floor/120903clelandnom.html

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

[Tarver Engineering]

"B2431" > wrote in message
...
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>
> >
> >"Bob McKellar" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >>
> >> However, Cleland did receive the Silver Star for an earlier
> >> action. He was an active combat experienced soldier.
> >
> >Bull****, Cleland got the silver star for being fragged, or dropped the
> >grenade himself.
> >
>
> Tarver, once again you don't know what you are talking about. Cleland got
his
> silver star for actions four days before the grenade fumble. You don't get
> silver stars for incidents of fratricide.

Politics always plays into awards, Dan.

[Peter Kemp]

On 29 Feb 2004 22:13:51 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my formation
>hit it first.
>
>Before: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg
>
>After:
>http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg
>
>This mission was very interesting...to say the least:
>http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/b990514i.jpg
>
>The rest of my strikes to make "news" were JDAM strikes. The one thing you will
>notice is that mil dispersion pretty much ensures a few of your weapons are
>going to miss by a good distance, despite what you say. If you look at the
>Batajanica images, we threw a few M-117s out "in the weeds". We had
>anticiapated this because some of the weapons were in pretty bad shape. Unlike
>you, we realized that sending a loader back to get us some new weapons would
>have interfered with the "hustle & bustle" of flightline ops, so we pressed on.

BUFDRVR,

First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
good BDA. A quick question though....

Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
running down old stock?

If they are still being produced, why? Do they have a noticably better
CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?

Thanks,

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - drink faster

[Jake McGuire]

(BUFDRVR) wrote in message >...

> To be fair, these two are actually the result of two 2-ships, but my formation
> hit it first.
>
> Before: http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-003.jpg
>
> After:
> http://www.fas.org/irp/imint/990526-O-9999M-004.jpg

Think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?

Wow.

-jake

[Guy Alcala]

Peter Kemp wrote:

<snip>

> First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
> good BDA. A quick question though....
>
> Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
> running down old stock?
>
> If they are still being produced, why? Do they have a noticably better
> CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?

If they are still in production, I imagine it's because the B-52H can carry the same
number of Mk.82s or M117s both internally (27) and externally (18 on the HSAB; 24 on
the old pylon), so you might as well use the bigger ones. M117s also have a
somewhat higher fill/casing ratio than the Mk.82, about 45% explosive vs. 36-40%;
the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is more GP,
i.e. more blast-biased.

Guy

[Kevin Brooks]

"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> Peter Kemp wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
> > good BDA. A quick question though....
> >
> > Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
> > running down old stock?
> >
> > If they are still being produced, why? Do they have a noticably better
> > CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?
>
> If they are still in production, I imagine it's because the B-52H can
carry the same
> number of Mk.82s or M117s both internally (27) and externally (18 on the
HSAB; 24 on
> the old pylon), so you might as well use the bigger ones. M117s also have
a
> somewhat higher fill/casing ratio than the Mk.82, about 45% explosive vs.
36-40%;
> the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is
more GP,
> i.e. more blast-biased.

I don't think they have been in production since the 1950's. Apparently they
were actually starting to demil the M117's at Crane Depot back in the
mid-nineties (I presume that was later put on hold). The 80 series bombs
went into production during the fifties, and IIRC a few authors (and maybe
some of the posters here who have dropped them) have indicated that we have
just been working on whittling down the stocks remaining from the
pre-Vietnam production. ISTR the biggest dislike of the M117 was its less
aerodynamic shape and poorer accuracy when comapred to the 80-series
weapons.

Interestingly, I did see where the Iranians have recently developed a rocket
boosted LGB using an M117 as the warhead.

Brooks

>
> Guy
>

[Guy Alcala]

Kevin Brooks wrote:

> "Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Peter Kemp wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > First of all, nice shooting (dropping?lobbing?) either way. Bloody
> > > good BDA. A quick question though....
> > >
> > > Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
> > > running down old stock?

<snip>

> I don't think they have been in production since the 1950's. Apparently they
> were actually starting to demil the M117's at Crane Depot back in the
> mid-nineties (I presume that was later put on hold). The 80 series bombs
> went into production during the fifties, and IIRC a few authors (and maybe
> some of the posters here who have dropped them) have indicated that we have
> just been working on whittling down the stocks remaining from the
> pre-Vietnam production. ISTR the biggest dislike of the M117 was its less
> aerodynamic shape and poorer accuracy when comapred to the 80-series
> weapons.

I've read statements by pilots who've dropped both of them, on both sides of the
accuracy and effect issue. Some are adamant that the M117 was more effective
and more accurate, and the other side is equally adamant that the Mk. 82 wins
the accuracy contest at least. This seems to be more a matter of personal
opinion than objective fact. The one objective fact about the two is that the
M117 was unquestionably draggier.

Guy

[Greg Hennessy]

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 02:11:10 GMT, Guy Alcala
> wrote:


>If they are still in production, I imagine it's because the B-52H can carry the same
>number of Mk.82s or M117s both internally (27) and externally (18 on the HSAB; 24 on
>the old pylon), so you might as well use the bigger ones. M117s also have a
>somewhat higher fill/casing ratio than the Mk.82, about 45% explosive vs. 36-40%;
>the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is more GP,
>i.e. more blast-biased.
>

IIRC Bufdrvr mentioned something previously about carrying UK Mk 15/18 1000
pounders also, anyone got the numbers of those carried ?


greg

--
You do a lot less thundering in the pulpit against the Harlot
after she marches right down the aisle and kicks you in the nuts.

[BUFDRVR]

>Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
>running down old stock?
>

Running down old stock, and by the looks of some of them, it clearly shows.
Someone must have thought Arc Light was going to last for 100 years. There are
still over 20,000 M-117 at Andersen alone. We're trying to drop as many as we
can since its cheaper to drop them (aircraft fuel included) than it is to
"de-mil" them.

>Do they have a noticably better
>CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?

The mil dispersion on an M-117 is twice that of a Mk-82 (not sure about
Mk-83?), simply because there less aerodynamic (round like a pot bellied pig)
and manufactured before the Nixon administration.As far as price goes, I'd
imagine they're equal (in current dollars). An M-117 has a much thinner bomb
body, but around 50% more explosive filler...sounds like a "wash" on price, no?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>the Mk. 82 leans more towards the frag end of things, while the M117 is more
>GP,
>i.e. more blast-biased.

True, however depending on what you're doing (bombing a building versus bombing
people), you may want the better frag weapon (Mk-82). Bigger boom isn't always
better....just more fun.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>Interestingly, I did see where the Iranians have recently developed a rocket
>boosted LGB using an M117 as the warhead.

Strange since the thin skinned M-117 has nearly zero pentration capability. All
putting a rocket on it would do was ensure the skin breached before the
explosive chain hit its full psi. A big sparkler would be the result.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 3/2/04 4:21 PM Pacific Standard Time

>n M-117 has a much thinner bomb
>body, but around 50% more explosive filler...

How does this effect shrapnel effecitveness and dispersion?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>The one objective fact about the two is that the
>M117 was unquestionably draggier.
>

Its a fact that the accuracy of the the M-117 (measured in mil dispersion) is
twice as *bad* as the Mk-82.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>IIRC Bufdrvr mentioned something previously about carrying UK Mk 15/18 1000
>pounders also, anyone got the numbers of those carried ?
>

Hmm, I believe they were 14" lug spaced which means we should have been (only
carried during DESERT STORM) able to carry 27 internal and 24 external (on
MERs) unless there is some kind of spacing issue with an oversized conical
fin/retarder. I'm not familiar with the UK-1000. Does it have any unique
features like a large Drag device or conical fin?


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>Think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?

What you talking about?....there's still one building and a few trees standing
;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Thomas Schoene]

BUFDRVR wrote:
>> Interestingly, I did see where the Iranians have recently developed
>> a rocket boosted LGB using an M117 as the warhead.
>
> Strange since the thin skinned M-117 has nearly zero pentration
> capability. All putting a rocket on it would do was ensure the skin
> breached before the explosive chain hit its full psi. A big sparkler
> would be the result.

I expect that the rocket is used at the beginning of the flight to enhance
stand-off range, not penetration. Something like USN's Skipper, which was
basically a Paveway II with a Shrike motor on the back end.

--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 3/2/04 4:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>Think you used enough dynamite there, Butch?
>
>What you talking about?....there's still one building and a few trees
>standing
>;)
>
>
>BUFDRVR


hole in the pattern


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[BUFDRVR]

>>n M-117 has a much thinner bomb
>>body, but around 50% more explosive filler...
>
>How does this effect shrapnel effecitveness and dispersion?
>

It throws less frag farther.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>I expect that the rocket is used at the beginning of the flight to enhance
>stand-off range, not penetration.

ahhh, ok. I'll buy that then....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

>hole in the pattern

Nope, either mil dispersion or it was not in line with the DMPI. IIRC, my
formation went directly across (using the picture either top to bottom or left
to right), it looks like the 2-ship who followed us (later that evening), just
dropped 90-degrees out from us, effectively making a +. Appears that building
may have been spared by targeting....or mil dispersion, can't tell.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: How accurate was B-26 bombing?
>From: (BUFDRVR)
>Date: 3/2/04 5:23 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>>hole in the pattern
>
>Nope, either mil dispersion or it was not in line with the DMPI. IIRC, my
>formation went directly across (using the picture either top to bottom or
>left
>to right), it looks like the 2-ship who followed us (later that evening),
>just
>dropped 90-degrees out from us, effectively making a +. Appears that building
>may have been spared by targeting....or mil dispersion, can't tell.
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it
>harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"

Thanks for the rundown. As I have said before my last mission was in 1945
with some practice missions in the Army of Occupation (North Sea Gunnery Range)
in 1946. What you describe is totally unfamiliar to me. It is interesting to
see how things are done now.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"Thomas Schoene" > wrote in message
link.net...
> BUFDRVR wrote:
> >> Interestingly, I did see where the Iranians have recently developed
> >> a rocket boosted LGB using an M117 as the warhead.
> >
> > Strange since the thin skinned M-117 has nearly zero pentration
> > capability. All putting a rocket on it would do was ensure the skin
> > breached before the explosive chain hit its full psi. A big sparkler
> > would be the result.
>
> I expect that the rocket is used at the beginning of the flight to enhance
> stand-off range, not penetration. Something like USN's Skipper, which was
> basically a Paveway II with a Shrike motor on the back end.

Yeah. That is the plan from what I read--add the AGM 130 to the "similar to"
category.

Brooks

>
> --
> Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
> "If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
> special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)
>
>
>
>

[Peter Kemp]

On 03 Mar 2004 00:21:43 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>Are the M-117s still being manufactured, or is it *still* a case of
>>running down old stock?
>>
>
>Running down old stock, and by the looks of some of them, it clearly shows.
>Someone must have thought Arc Light was going to last for 100 years. There are
>still over 20,000 M-117 at Andersen alone. We're trying to drop as many as we
>can since its cheaper to drop them (aircraft fuel included) than it is to
>"de-mil" them.
>
>>Do they have a noticably better
>>CEP over a Mk.82/83, or are they significantly cheaper?
>
>The mil dispersion on an M-117 is twice that of a Mk-82 (not sure about
>Mk-83?), simply because there less aerodynamic (round like a pot bellied pig)
>and manufactured before the Nixon administration.As far as price goes, I'd
>imagine they're equal (in current dollars). An M-117 has a much thinner bomb
>body, but around 50% more explosive filler...sounds like a "wash" on price, no?

Thanks for the didn't realise they had sooooo many in stock. Hmmm,
will we run out of M-117 before we run out of airframe life on the
Buffs? Interesting speculation, but I guess that's down to the
President and the other world leaders.

---
Peter Kemp

Life is short - drink faster

[BUFDRVR]

>will we run out of M-117 before we run out of airframe life on the
>Buffs?

Doubtful, since they are "de-miling" them as well as dropping them at every
opportunity. We've got 36 years left of BUFF airframe time, by my guess, all
the M-117s will be gone by '06 or '07.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"