Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard [Archive]

Rick Folkers

February 28th 04, 11:33 PM

This post is for Art Kramer and his ilk who should ask questions instead of
pontificating on subjects they are totally ignorant of.

I have just about had it with the bull**** spread by people ignorant of the
National Guard and its roles during the 60's through the 80's. My
experience with the military included almost six years on active duty that
ended in 1972. I served in Vietnam for two tours as an officer. In 1974 I
joined the Alabama Army National Guard (ALARNG). In 1975 I became a full
time training officer for a signal battalion.

The national guard soldier is expected to serve for one weekend a month
averaging two days. For some special training you may have a 3 day drill
but the usual drill is for two days. Those two days drills often involve
overnight training hundreds of miles from their home armory. My unit would
convoy to the training site, conduct signal and tactical training and convoy
back to the home armory. All from 6 AM Saturday morning to 5 PM Sunday
afternoon. During that time we fed the troops, often tactically, performed
the required maintenance and the NCO's and officers conducted appropriate
training and made appropriate plans for the next drills.

Many units, to include the unit I was assigned, were in the affiliated
program, whereby you trained with and deployed with active duty units. My
unit was affiliated with signal battalions at Ft Bragg, NC, and would have
deployed at that time with the Ft Bragg corps.

Our performance varied in comparison with the active forces. Our convoy
skills were head and shoulders above theirs due to necessity. Our ability
to setup and take down signal sites was also better. They had more
experience in long term operations as the longest we could operate at a time
was during Annual Training of 14 - 17 days. Their equipment was normally
more recent but more worn as it was used much more. Special training was
set up some weekends when cadres of NG forces would travel to Ft Bragg to
participate in their exercises. On more than one occasion I stepped into
the shoes of my active counter part on their exercises.

So many national guard members made sacrifices in their civilian lives to
serve and be ready to defend the country. Employers were not always happy
to hear they could not work on a given weekend due to a drill or had to take
their two weeks off during the summer. There were and are laws to protect
jobs but they were not enforced often and how you could you prove the reason
you did not get a promotion was due to your guard membership.

In addition to the above requirements the national guard soldiers had to
attend schools at the appropriate levels to attain promotion in much the
same manner as their active counter parts. An officer had to have the
Advanced course to make Major and if he had not completed the Command and
General Staff College he better be almost through if he was up for
Lieutenant Colonel. We had to pass state promotion boards and the results
had to be approved by Congress for Major and above. The qualification
levels were the same as for the active duty troops. I was an officer and
know more about the officer requirements but the NCO's had to have their NCO
academies at the right points as their active duty brothers.

In addition to their military requirements national guard troops were
subject to state orders to provide relief and order during state
emergencies. With hurricane in the south and ice storms in the north the
Alabama Guardsman often was called to duty at times when his family needed
him but he heeded the call for the benefit of the state.

Now all during the above the guard unit was inspected much the same as the
active forces. We had Annual General Inspections (AGI) where everything was
gone over with a fine tooth comb. Everything from records to the equipment
and the armory were checked.

Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false deferments
or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the NG?
I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were cowards
in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
broad brush.

Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military or
National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if you
acted like you were actually learning once in a while.

I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National Guard,
and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard and
Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current age
and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the same.

ArtKramr

February 28th 04, 11:53 PM

>Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Rick Folkers"

>Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
>sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
>government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false deferments
>or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the NG?
>I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were cowards
>in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
>broad brush.
>
>Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military or
>National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
>ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if you
>acted like you were actually learning once in a while.
>
>I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National Guard,
>and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard and
>Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current age
>and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the same.
>
>

I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who went for
the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have since
been twisted and distorted out of all recognition. If in 1943 you went into the
guard you were held in contempt as someone who wanted to avoid serving his
country, And that is the way it was back then and nothing said here can change
that. I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well. My
grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they would never be
called. The jokes on them.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

February 29th 04, 12:30 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Rick Folkers"
>
> >Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
> >sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
> >government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false
deferments
> >or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the
NG?
> >I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were
cowards
> >in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
> >broad brush.
> >
> >Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military
or
> >National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
> >ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if
you
> >acted like you were actually learning once in a while.
> >
> >I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National
Guard,
> >and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard
and
> >Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current
age
> >and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the
same.
> >
> >
>
> I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who went
for
> the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country.

What utter bull****. One more time, Kramer--the Guard was mobilized in its
entirety by federal order over a YEAR before Pearl Harbor. There was no
local Guard unit for them to join after mobilization was completed in early
spring 1941--all of the units were on active duty, where they would remain
through 1945. Meaning those Guardsmen served one hell of a lot longer than
you did. None of the above is "opinion"--it is all cold, hard facts,
something you obviously are completely ignorant of.

My words have since
> been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.

Bull**** again. Your words have been fed back at you verbatim--you were
wrong when you claimed, and I quote (from 21 FEB, AGAIN):

"Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and laughing stocks
for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to war, then go to
war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff. Tell a member of
the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great job the reserve is
doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and safe while he may
not live to see the end of this day."

Those Guardsmen were hardly "pathetic jokes and laughing stocks"; when they
were mobilized en mass they immediately doubled the size of the active Army
on duty in 1940. Few of those Guardsmen were "nice and safe" while Bastogne
was going on--in fact, it was a National Guard outfit (120th Inf Rgt, 30th
Inf Div) that your sister B-26 unit (322nd BG, IIRC) mistakenly bombed
during the Battle of the Bulge, killing a number of them at Malmedy. Other
Guardsmen were (hopefully) finishing their fourth year in confinement as
POW's of the Japanese--"hopefully" because a lot of them did not survive the
Bataan Death March. They were in their third year of that unimaginable
misery while you were still debating with yourself about asking Sally Ann
out to the school dance. More Guardsmen served as spearhead assault units in
various amphibious operations, including your personal favorite, Normandy,
where the 116th Inf Rgt of the Virginia National Guard made the town of
Bedford famous for suffering the loss of almost an entire generation of her
young men during a few short hours on that sixth day of June in 1944.

If in 1943 you went into the
> guard you were held in contempt as someone who wanted to avoid serving
his
> country,

Complete and utter bull**** again. THERE WAS NO NATIONAL GUARD FOR THEM TO
JOIN IN 1943! It had been serving in federal service for over two years at
that point. Do you just make this crap up as you go along?

And that is the way it was back then and nothing said here can change
> that.

Especially the (gasp!) facts, right? You are utterly clueless, and even more
amazing, you refuse to check into the actual history of the US mobilization
effort, where you would find that yes indeed, all of the Guard units were
long gone from Fort Livingroom long before 1943.

I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well. My
> grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they would never
be
> called. The jokes on them.

You are an idiot. Hopefully those poor misguided soul who have been clinging
to the idea that you might have some sort of historical value are reading
this latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks who
have figured you out for what you really are.

Brooks
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Tarver Engineering

February 29th 04, 12:34 AM

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> > >From: "Rick Folkers"
> >
> > >Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I
am
> > >sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
> > >government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false
> deferments
> > >or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the
> NG?
> > >I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were
> cowards
> > >in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with
that
> > >broad brush.
> > >
> > >Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current
military
> or
> > >National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
> > >ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if
> you
> > >acted like you were actually learning once in a while.
> > >
> > >I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National
> Guard,
> > >and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard
> and
> > >Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current
> age
> > >and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the
> same.
> > >
> > >
> >
> > I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who
went
> for
> > the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country.
>
> What utter bull****. One more time, Kramer--the Guard was mobilized in its
> entirety by federal order over a YEAR before Pearl Harbor. There was no
> local Guard unit for them to join after mobilization was completed in
early
> spring 1941--all of the units were on active duty, where they would remain
> through 1945. Meaning those Guardsmen served one hell of a lot longer than
> you did. None of the above is "opinion"--it is all cold, hard facts,
> something you obviously are completely ignorant of.
>
> My words have since
> > been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.
>
> Bull**** again. Your words have been fed back at you verbatim--you were
> wrong when you claimed, and I quote (from 21 FEB, AGAIN):
>
> "Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and laughing
stocks
> for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to war, then go to
> war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff. Tell a member
of
> the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great job the reserve
is
> doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and safe while he may
> not live to see the end of this day."
>
> Those Guardsmen were hardly "pathetic jokes and laughing stocks"; when
they
> were mobilized en mass they immediately doubled the size of the active
Army
> on duty in 1940. Few of those Guardsmen were "nice and safe" while
Bastogne
> was going on--in fact, it was a National Guard outfit (120th Inf Rgt, 30th
> Inf Div) that your sister B-26 unit (322nd BG, IIRC) mistakenly bombed
> during the Battle of the Bulge, killing a number of them at Malmedy. Other
> Guardsmen were (hopefully) finishing their fourth year in confinement as
> POW's of the Japanese--"hopefully" because a lot of them did not survive
the
> Bataan Death March. They were in their third year of that unimaginable
> misery while you were still debating with yourself about asking Sally Ann
> out to the school dance. More Guardsmen served as spearhead assault units
in
> various amphibious operations, including your personal favorite, Normandy,
> where the 116th Inf Rgt of the Virginia National Guard made the town of
> Bedford famous for suffering the loss of almost an entire generation of
her
> young men during a few short hours on that sixth day of June in 1944.

My father had joined the Oklahoma National Guard and was a rilfeman in hq hq
company 101st Airborne 506, downtown Bastogne.

ArtKramr

February 29th 04, 01:07 AM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 2/28/04 4:30 PM Pacific Standard Time

>his latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
>(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks who
>have figured you out for what you really are.
>
>Brooks

You are a lying piece of crap.

PLONK
Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

BUFDRVR

February 29th 04, 02:44 AM

>>Brooks
>
>You are a lying piece of crap.
>
>PLONK
>Arthur Kramer

Way to go Art, keep it up and you'll only have to deal with
Autocollimater...uhh....never mind....

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Jack

February 29th 04, 02:54 AM

On 2/28/04 5:53 PM, in article ,
"ArtKramr" > wrote:

> I was originally talking bout WW II and many high school kids who went for
> the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have since
> been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.

Does that include your reference to Colin Powel: not a very good basis for
argument concerning events 30 years earlier, is it?

Jack
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Making the French unhappy is
just a pleasant side benefit
of doing the right thing"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tarver Engineering

February 29th 04, 02:58 AM

"Jack" > wrote in message
...
> On 2/28/04 5:53 PM, in article
,
> "ArtKramr" > wrote:
>
> > I was originally talking bout WW II and many high school kids who went
for
> > the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have
since
> > been twisted and distorted out of all recognition.
>
> Does that include your reference to Colin Powel: not a very good basis for
> argument concerning events 30 years earlier, is it?

Since the Guard was Federalized in 1940 when Art would have been 15, it is
just another false memory. Much like Billy Blythe remembering Black church
burnings in his youth in Arkansas.

Just politics, nothing personal.

Kevin Brooks

February 29th 04, 03:38 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 2/28/04 4:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >his latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
> >(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks
who
> >have figured you out for what you really are.
> >
> >Brooks
>
> You are a lying piece of crap.

Feel free to specifically point out any lies in the post that you so handily
snipped, especially those related to the dissection of your own quoted
words. Reviewing it again, the only lies I see are the ones you keep
muttering:

Art: "I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who
went for the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country."

Well, we know that is not true, as the Guard was mobilized for federal
service at the same time that Congress authorized conscription.

Art: "If in 1943 you went into the guard you were held in contempt as
someone who wanted to avoid serving his country, And that is the way it was
back then and nothing said here can change that."

Another falsehood from Art, as it was impossible to get into the National
Guard in 1943, being as all of the units had been federalized for about two
plus years by 1943.

Art: "I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well."

Yes, you did: "Back then the reserve and the guard were pathetic jokes and
laughing stocks for all of us. As I have said before, if you want to go to
war, then go to war and don't hand us this reserve or National Guard stuff.
Tell a member of the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what a great
job the reserve is doing to defend our country sitting in the USA nice and
safe while he may not live to see the end of this day." Chalk up another
bald-faced lie to Kramer.

Art: "My grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they
would never be called."

Strange at best, since the entire Guard had been serving on active duty well
before Art got his "call up" on his eighteenth birthday...which brings into
question one of Art's more cherished claims, that he was a VOLUNTEER, by
gosh! Gee, if he got called up for military service as he has stated, how
does that equate to him having "volunteered for service"?!

And last but not least...

Art: "The jokes on them."

I doubt those Guardsmen who were enduring the likes of Bloody Buna, Bataan,
Guadalcanal, Sicily, etc., before you even were "called up", not to mention
those who went on to fight hard-fought battles on the beach at Normandy,
during the Normandy breakout, throughout France, the Huertgen Forest, the
Ardennes, etc., were much of a joking matter. The only jokes that have
emerged from this discussion turned out to be your trashed reputation and
lack of integrity.

Brooks

>
> PLONK
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Tank Fixer

February 29th 04, 03:48 AM

In article >,
on 28 Feb 2004 23:53:02 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Rick Folkers"
>
> >Now Art, were there people in the guard who got in through favors? I am
> >sure there were just as favors are pulled daily in any activity that
> >government is involved in. Just as some people in WWII got false deferments
> >or pulled strings to get plush assignments. Were there cowards in the NG?
> >I am sure. We tried to run them off. But you know what, there were cowards
> >in the Army Air Corps in WWII, but we don't paint all the vets with that
> >broad brush.
> >
> >Art, it is time you admitted you know nothing about the current military or
> >National Guard and ask instead of castigating and revealing your vast
> >ignorance. You would a much better chance of being taken seriously if you
> >acted like you were actually learning once in a while.
> >
> >I retired after a 26 year career with the active army, the National Guard,
> >and the Army Reserve. I remain just as proud of my time with the Guard and
> >Reserves as with the Army in Vietnam. But I try to live in the current age
> >and keep learning rather than rest on my laurels. You could try the same.
> >
> >
>
> I was originally talking bout WW II and many high sbchool kids who went for
> the guard and Reserves to delay serving their country. My words have since
> been twisted and distorted out of all recognition. If in 1943 you went into the
> guard you were held in contempt as someone who wanted to avoid serving his
> country, And that is the way it was back then and nothing said here can change
> that. I never said that once in the guard the guard did not serve well. My
> grievance was only with those who hid in the guard hoping they would never be
> called. The jokes on them.

Art, you are a simpering fool. There was no National Guard in 1943. They
had all been called to active duty in 1940 to early 1941.

There were some state guard forces for those not able to qualify for
active service. But they were not subject to any mobilization.

The joke IS you Art, give it up.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Tank Fixer

February 29th 04, 03:49 AM

In article >,
on 29 Feb 2004 01:07:54 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....

> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 2/28/04 4:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >his latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
> >(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks who
> >have figured you out for what you really are.
> >
> >Brooks
>
> You are a lying piece of crap.

Then prove him wrong. What guard units were there to join in 1943 ?

> PLONK

Coward.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Ragnar

February 29th 04, 04:33 AM

[email protected]

February 29th 04, 05:35 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>Date: 2/28/04 4:30 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
>>his latest evidence of your complete and utter lack of touch with reality
>>(either then or now) and joining the evidently growing number of folks who
>>have figured you out for what you really are.
>>
>>Brooks
>
>You are a lying piece of crap.
>
>PLONK
>Arthur Kramer

Well arthur, now you really do have a reason to quit this ng in a
hissy fit, certainly a much better reason than when you quit it
for awhile when I took you to task for insulting your enlisted
crewmembers about their lack of intelligence, remember?

Looks like Brooks has you pretty well squared away here I'd say.

Shame too, you're one of the few veterans who has front line
experience in WW2. Many young people could learn much from you,
and it's important that they do that too, the more people who
know of war the more pressure can be applied for peace.

It's a damned shame that you're such an ignorant prick.
--

-Gord.

Mike Marron

February 29th 04, 01:17 PM

>"Ragnar" > wrote:
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote:

>> You are a lying piece of crap.

>>PLONK

>Yes, thats the way to do it. PLONK someone who makes valid points. Don't
>even try to debate the issue.

Or even more brilliant, conjure up an imaginary playmate like
"Autocollimator" so as to massage your own cringing ego. Here
are just a few excerpts from Kramer/Autocollimator...

"We must never confuse the ones who only talk the talk with those who
actually walked the walk."

--Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"

"Your vivid memory is our gain. Thanks again."

--Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
discussion with Kramer)

"Great story. Thanks for posting it. I envy you your combat
experience..Keep the war stories coming."

--Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
discussion with Kramer)

"Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being
there no matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep
'em flying."

--Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
discussion with Kramer)

"While the Japs were beheading American flyers we were sending German
prisoners to Kansas where they got better food and medical attention
than they ever had in their miserable Nazi lives, Many stayed to marry
American woman and are among us to this day. Your comparison to how
the Japs treated prisoners and how we did is odious and disgusting. I
can only attribute it your ignorance of the history of the period..
Now why don't you take your crappy Piper Cub and shove it where the
sun don't shine..Imbecile."

--Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"

"Have been reading your website. Great stuff . I have some questions.
We'll do it e-mail. Thanks."

--Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
discussion with Kramer)

"Next time the Kauts have you by the throats don't come whining to us
for help again. .We'll let then eat you as we should have in the first
place, Nations that are defenseless shouldn't be so arrogant."

--Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"

"South African? That is a Brit that coculdn't quite make it. But you
sound more like an Arab to me. Sure you are not an Arab and ashamed
of it?"

--Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"

"Then there are those idiots who don't know that to this day there
are many Germans who believe in Hitler and the Nazi cause and want to
bring it all back These are the worst idiots of all.."

--Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"

"As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew
combat in WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those
that never flew as aircrew in WW II."

--Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
discussion with Kramer)

>Face it, Art, you got caught out for being clueless and you don't like it.
>Now act like a mature adult for a change.

Kramer/Autocollimator (take your pick) is utterly incapable of acting
like an adult and I'm convinced that the man has gone 'round the pale.
What's sad about all this is that it's virtually impossible to feel
any compassion or sympathy for the old man given all the gratuitous,
mean-spirited vitriol that he constantly spews.

BUFDRVR

February 29th 04, 01:24 PM

> Many young people could learn much from you

I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by time or his
God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth or
keyboard should immediately disregarded.

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Mike Marron

February 29th 04, 01:43 PM

> (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by time or his
>God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth or
>keyboard should immediately disregarded.

Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.

GuiltyBystander9

March 1st 04, 03:29 AM

The Americal Division was formed in WW2 (May 1942) from the 132 Regiment
Illinois National Guard, 164 Regiment North Dakota National Guard, 182 Regiment
Massachussetts National Guard. Commanded by Maj. Gen. Alexander Patch, it
served on Guadalcanal. The North Dakota Guard Regiment played the key role in
smashing the largest Japanese offensive of the campaign, in October 1942. The
147 Regiment Ohio National Guard served independently on Guadalcanal, working
closely with Marine units.
Besides the Americal most of the rest of the Army's combat strength in the
South Pacific and New Guinea came from five National Guard Divisions, 41, 43
formed around Connecticut National Guard, 32 formed around Wisconsin and
Michigan National Guards (and commanded by Maj. General Edwin Harding, coauthor
of the Army Infantry Manual), 37 formed around Ohio National Guard and the 25
formed around Washington National Guard.
The 37th, 25th and 43rd fought on New Georgia, the 41 and 32 on New Guinea.

John Mullen

March 1st 04, 07:05 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> > (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>
> >I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by time
or his
> >God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth or
> >keyboard should immediately disregarded.
>
> Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
> gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
> crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
> ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.
>

Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.

John

John Mullen

March 1st 04, 07:08 PM

"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
> >"Ragnar" > wrote:
> >>"ArtKramr" > wrote:
>
> >> You are a lying piece of crap.
>
> >>PLONK
>
> >Yes, thats the way to do it. PLONK someone who makes valid points.
Don't
> >even try to debate the issue.
>
> Or even more brilliant, conjure up an imaginary playmate like
> "Autocollimator" so as to massage your own cringing ego. Here
> are just a few excerpts from Kramer/Autocollimator...
>
> "We must never confuse the ones who only talk the talk with those who
> actually walked the walk."
>
> --Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"
>
>
>
> "Your vivid memory is our gain. Thanks again."
>
> --Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
> discussion with Kramer)
>
>
>
> "Great story. Thanks for posting it. I envy you your combat
> experience..Keep the war stories coming."
>
> --Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
> discussion with Kramer)
>
>
>
> "Your stuff is the most interesting on this NG. You can't beat being
> there no matter what. I look for your posts every time I log on. Keep
> 'em flying."
>
> --Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
> discussion with Kramer)
>
>
>
> "While the Japs were beheading American flyers we were sending German
> prisoners to Kansas where they got better food and medical attention
> than they ever had in their miserable Nazi lives, Many stayed to marry
> American woman and are among us to this day. Your comparison to how
> the Japs treated prisoners and how we did is odious and disgusting. I
> can only attribute it your ignorance of the history of the period..
> Now why don't you take your crappy Piper Cub and shove it where the
> sun don't shine..Imbecile."
>
> --Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"
>
>
>
> "Have been reading your website. Great stuff . I have some questions.
> We'll do it e-mail. Thanks."
>
> --Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
> discussion with Kramer)
>
>
>
> "Next time the Kauts have you by the throats don't come whining to us
> for help again. .We'll let then eat you as we should have in the first
> place, Nations that are defenseless shouldn't be so arrogant."
>
> --Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"
>
>
>
> "South African? That is a Brit that coculdn't quite make it. But you
> sound more like an Arab to me. Sure you are not an Arab and ashamed
> of it?"
>
> --Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"
>
>
>
> "Then there are those idiots who don't know that to this day there
> are many Germans who believe in Hitler and the Nazi cause and want to
> bring it all back These are the worst idiots of all.."
>
> --Kramer while posing as "Autocollimator"
>
>
>
> "As I understand it Art is the only one in this NG that actually flew
> combat in WWII as aircrew.So I will take his view above all those
> that never flew as aircrew in WW II."
>
> --Kramer having a discussion "Autocollimator" (e.g: Kramer having a
> discussion with Kramer)
>
>
>
> >Face it, Art, you got caught out for being clueless and you don't like
it.
> >Now act like a mature adult for a change.
>
> Kramer/Autocollimator (take your pick) is utterly incapable of acting
> like an adult and I'm convinced that the man has gone 'round the pale.
> What's sad about all this is that it's virtually impossible to feel
> any compassion or sympathy for the old man given all the gratuitous,
> mean-spirited vitriol that he constantly spews.

You've tried this before Michael. Why not give it a rest. Your obsession
says more about you than it ever could about Art. And, speaking of
gratuitous, mean-spirited vitriol, I doubt that Art has anything to learn
from you in that area. You also seem mixed up by 'i.e.' and 'e.g.'. Tip: if
you don't understand Latin, leave it alone.

John

Kevin Brooks

March 1st 04, 07:45 PM

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> "Mike Marron" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > (BUFDRVR) wrote:
> >
> > >I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
time
> or his
> > >God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth or
> > >keyboard should immediately disregarded.
> >
> > Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
> > gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
> > crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
> > ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.
> >
>
> Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
> his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.

"Don't always agree with Art"? Based upon his last several rants in this NG,
and their complete and utter lack basis in fact, if you *ever* agree with
Art you have a problem. In regards to on/off-topic, Art is one of the
illustrious few who has, in the very same day, lambasted posters for
off-topic material, then turned right around and *started* a new off-topic
thread. Sadly, he'll take the last phrase of your comment above and treat it
as a veritable "atta-boy, Art--go get 'em". Which will result in his once
again coming out with crap like that which spurred the original post in this
thread. Art, the Tarvernaut, Mo-ron...they are *all* of about equal caliber.
Oops...I forgot to include the resident "down under" (both Aussie and South
African varieties) charter members of that august group, Aerophotos/JGG (and
his patriarchal alter-ego) and Grantland.

Brooks

>
> John
>
>

Tarver Engineering

March 1st 04, 08:00 PM

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...

> Brooks

In what universe are you fit to shine Art's shoes, Kevin?

ArtKramr

March 1st 04, 09:07 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "John Mullen"
>Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
...
>> > (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>>
>> >I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by time
>or his
>> >God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth or
>> >keyboard should immediately disregarded.
>>
>> Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
>> gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
>> crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
>> ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.
>>
>
>Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
>his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.
>
>John
>
>
Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

March 1st 04, 09:09 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Tarver Engineering"
>Date: 3/1/04 12:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
>> Brooks
>
>In what universe are you fit to shine Art's shoes, Kevin?
>
>
It looks as though Kevin is totally democratic. He hates everyone regardless
of race, religion or national origin.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

March 1st 04, 09:12 PM

>ject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "John Mullen"
>Date: 3/1/04 11:08 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >

>Mike Marron" > wrote in message
>news:6dn3409n0cr0ilqahk

>You've tried this before Michael. Why not give it a rest. Your obsession
>says more about you than it ever could about Art. And, speaking of
>gratuitous, mean-spirited vitriol, I doubt that Art has anything to learn
>from you in that area. You also seem mixed up by 'i.e.' and 'e.g.'. Tip: if
>you don't understand Latin, leave it alone.
>
>John
>
>
Couldn't have said it better myself. (grin)

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 12:41 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >Date: 3/1/04 12:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> >> Brooks
> >
> >In what universe are you fit to shine Art's shoes, Kevin?
> >
> >
> It looks as though Kevin is totally democratic. He hates everyone
regardless
> of race, religion or national origin.

No, Art, I just don't care much for proven liars, like you and your newest
best buddy here.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 12:49 AM

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 12:53 AM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/1/04 4:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
>> >Date: 3/1/04 12:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> >> Brooks
>> >
>> >In what universe are you fit to shine Art's shoes, Kevin?
>> >
>> >
>> It looks as though Kevin is totally democratic. He hates everyone
>regardless
>> of race, religion or national origin.
>
>No, Art, I just don't care much for proven liars, like you and your newest
>best buddy here.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>

Tell us about your extensive combat experience in Ohio sniveling liar. What
the flak so thick over your desk you could get out and walk on it? Tell us abou
tit liar.My military record is an open book for all see with near minute- to
minute accounts. How about yours liar? You post nothing of interest. Only
criticism of everything and everyone to cover up your near zero combat
experience. Right liar? Now screw off and stop bothering people who actually
fought for their country

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tex Houston

March 2nd 04, 01:24 AM

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> > Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
>
> If you just stopped lying, and started admitting when you had screwed the
> pooch (i.e., the whole "Guard was back home while we did the fightin'"
crap)
> you'd have more friends. Continuing to deny reality after you have been
> corrected by umpteen other posters does little to enamor the average
poster.
>
> Brooks

Neither of you are exactly covering yourselves with glory in this ****ing
match. Both of you are splashing yourselves AND the bystanders.

A pox on both your houses! Anyone else feel the same way?

Regards,

Tex Houston

Mike Marron

March 2nd 04, 01:43 AM

>"Tex Houston" > wrote:

>Neither of you are exactly covering yourselves with glory in this ****ing
>match. Both of you are splashing yourselves AND the bystanders.

>A pox on both your houses! Anyone else feel the same way?

All I know is that YOU are part of the problem around here, not the
solution. You gloss over all the good postings (for example, the
posting I just made about the 602nd) and focus on the off-topic
postings precisely like you've just done here. Then you have the
audacity to bemoan and lament about all the off-topic postings
apparently oblivious to the fact that your bitching and complaining
about off-topic posts triggers EVEN MORE off-topic followups to
your off-topic bitching. Baffling!

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 02:15 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/1/04 4:41 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >> >From: "Tarver Engineering"
> >> >Date: 3/1/04 12:00 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >
> >> >> Brooks
> >> >
> >> >In what universe are you fit to shine Art's shoes, Kevin?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> It looks as though Kevin is totally democratic. He hates everyone
> >regardless
> >> of race, religion or national origin.
> >
> >No, Art, I just don't care much for proven liars, like you and your
newest
> >best buddy here.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
>
> Tell us about your extensive combat experience in Ohio sniveling liar.

Again, the ONLY duty I ever performed in Ohio was a military funeral. You
have been told this before, and for the life of me I cannot figure out why
you have this strange fixation on my alleged presence in Ohio at some desk.
As to lying, you have already been amply proven to be a very prolific liar,
and if you can find *any* example of my having done so, please show it to
us. Come on now, where is the evidence?

What
> the flak so thick over your desk you could get out and walk on it? Tell us
abou
> tit liar.My military record is an open book for all see with near minute-
to
> minute accounts.

I could really care less about your military record. FYI, having a military
record does not preclude you from being a liar--your recent and repeated
lies about the Guard during WWII bear that out.

> How about yours liar?

What does my military record have to do with your propensity to repeatedly
lie about the activities of the Guard during WWII? Nothing, that's what. not
an issue, except in your feeble little mind.

> You post nothing of interest.

Seems like a few folks have found the presentation of the truth regarding
the service of the Guard during WWII by a few of us more realistic posters
to be of greater interest, and reliability, than your repeated lies about
the same subject.

Only
> criticism of everything and everyone to cover up your near zero combat
> experience.

Again, what does my military service record have to do with this discussion?
Nothing.

> Right liar?

As others have already noted, you are the one with the integrity problem.

Now screw off and stop bothering people who actually
> fought for their country

BTW, after all of these repeated claims from you that you *volunteered* for
service during the war, what was that bit about getting your call-up notice
on the very day you turned eighteeen all about? Were you actually a draftee
(nothing wrong with that, except for the fact that you have repeatedly
claimed otherwise in the past), or did you hightail it for the USAAF
recruiters' office only after you got your notice? Gotta watch those errant
slips of the tongue you are so prone towards--they tend to reveal a distinct
lack of honesty in regards to your past claims.

Brooks

(and hey, you *again* forgot that you plonked me a day ago...)

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 02:25 AM

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> > > Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
> >
> > If you just stopped lying, and started admitting when you had screwed
the
> > pooch (i.e., the whole "Guard was back home while we did the fightin'"
> crap)
> > you'd have more friends. Continuing to deny reality after you have been
> > corrected by umpteen other posters does little to enamor the average
> poster.
> >
> > Brooks
>
>
> Neither of you are exactly covering yourselves with glory in this ****ing
> match. Both of you are splashing yourselves AND the bystanders.
>
> A pox on both your houses! Anyone else feel the same way?

Tex, merely pointing out Art's less than truthful characterizations of the
men and units who were fighting long before he entered into the fray is not
a bad thing in my book. You don't like it, just delete the messages and be
done with it. Unfortunately, evidence indicates that some misguided folks do
still tend to place some degree of trust in Art's word -- I don't
particularly care to see his lies about the Guard and Reserve in WWII hang
around in cyberspace for eternity without the truth being included. Just as
I was not too crazy about his past characterizations of those servicemembers
who did their assigned duty during the war but did not get to actively
engage the enemy in direct combat. Art has posted so much factually
incorrect BS that it is hard to imagine taking *anything* he has to say as
being truthful. I am really sorry if this all hurts your tender feelings.

Brooks

>
> Regards,
>
> Tex Houston
>
>

Ragnar

March 2nd 04, 02:44 AM

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 02:45 AM

>>ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/1/04 6:15 PM Pacific

>BTW, after all of these repeated claims from you that you *volunteered* for
>service during the war, what was that bit about getting your call-up notice
>on the very day you turned eighteeen all about? Were you actually a draftee
>(nothing wrong with that, except for the fact that you have repeatedly
>claimed otherwise in the past), or did you hightail it for the USAAF
>recruiters' office only after you got your notice? Gotta watch those errant
>slips of the tongue you are so prone towards--they tend to reveal a distinct
>lack of honesty in regards to your past claims.
>
>Brooks
>
>(and hey, you *again* forgot that you plonked me a day ago...)
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>

You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air Crew or
into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid can you
be? Your ignorance is appalling.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 02:49 AM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Tex Houston"
>Date: 3/1/04 5:24 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>> > Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
>>
>> If you just stopped lying, and started admitting when you had screwed the
>> pooch (i.e., the whole "Guard was back home while we did the fightin'"
>crap)
>> you'd have more friends. Continuing to deny reality after you have been
>> corrected by umpteen other posters does little to enamor the average
>poster.
>>
>> Brooks
>
>
>Neither of you are exactly covering yourselves with glory in this ****ing
>match. Both of you are splashing yourselves AND the bystanders.
>
>A pox on both your houses! Anyone else feel the same way?
>
>Regards,
>
>Tex Houston
>
>
>

For months I took his lying **** and never said a word. Now I am tired of
taking his crap. And the free ride of that lying **** is over.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Tex Houston

March 2nd 04, 02:53 AM

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
> Tex, merely pointing out Art's less than truthful characterizations of the
> men and units who were fighting long before he entered into the fray is
not
> a bad thing in my book. You don't like it, just delete the messages and be
> done with it. Unfortunately, evidence indicates that some misguided folks
do
> still tend to place some degree of trust in Art's word -- I don't
> particularly care to see his lies about the Guard and Reserve in WWII hang
> around in cyberspace for eternity without the truth being included. Just
as
> I was not too crazy about his past characterizations of those
servicemembers
> who did their assigned duty during the war but did not get to actively
> engage the enemy in direct combat. Art has posted so much factually
> incorrect BS that it is hard to imagine taking *anything* he has to say as
> being truthful. I am really sorry if this all hurts your tender feelings.
>
> Brooks
>

I was referring to the personal abuse (on both sides) and I find it
deplorable. If you cannot see that you can correct the error without the
abuse, you too suffer from the same obstinacy Art has demonstrated. We have
a couple of people here who are so vicious toward John Tarver (who I blocked
years ago and ignore) that I'm starting to have a tiny bit of sympathy
toward him.

I'm for a kinder, gentler newsgroup but then I also wish for World Peace.
Like I said, neither of you have covered yourselves in glory.

Tex Houston

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 03:02 AM

>ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 3/1/04 6:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > > Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
>> >
>> > If you just stopped lying, and started admitting when you had screwed
>the
>> > pooch (i.e., the whole "Guard was back home while we did the fightin'"
>> crap)
>> > you'd have more friends. Continuing to deny reality after you have been
>> > corrected by umpteen other posters does little to enamor the average
>> poster.
>> >
>> > Brooks
>>
>>
>> Neither of you are exactly covering yourselves with glory in this ****ing
>> match. Both of you are splashing yourselves AND the bystanders.
>>
>> A pox on both your houses! Anyone else feel the same way?
>
>Actually, it would be a pox on Art's house. Art has lied and been caught
>out by Kevin. Its quite entertaining.
>
>
And exactly what was that lie ****head?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[email protected]

March 2nd 04, 03:05 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote:

> or did you hightail it for the USAAF
>>recruiters' office only after you got your notice?
>>
>>Brooks
>>
>>(and hey, you *again* forgot that you plonked me a day ago...)
>>
<snippage>
>
>You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air Crew or
>into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid can you
>be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>
>Arthur Kramer

Cripes Arthur, you're reading comprehension's slipping a little
here...better watch it,

I'm only an enlisted type and *I* understood Brooks just fine!...
--

-Gord.

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 03:52 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >>ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/1/04 6:15 PM Pacific
>
> >BTW, after all of these repeated claims from you that you *volunteered*
for
> >service during the war, what was that bit about getting your call-up
notice
> >on the very day you turned eighteeen all about? Were you actually a
draftee
> >(nothing wrong with that, except for the fact that you have repeatedly
> >claimed otherwise in the past), or did you hightail it for the USAAF
> >recruiters' office only after you got your notice? Gotta watch those
errant
> >slips of the tongue you are so prone towards--they tend to reveal a
distinct
> >lack of honesty in regards to your past claims.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >(and hey, you *again* forgot that you plonked me a day ago...)
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
>
> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air
Crew or
> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid can
you
> be? Your ignorance is appalling.

Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your call-up
notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time repeatedly
claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it to the
recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
infantry, or what?

Brooks

>
> Arthur Kramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 03:58 AM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time

>> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air
>Crew or
>> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid can
>you
>> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>
>Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your call-up
>notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time repeatedly
>claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
>what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it to the
>recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
>infantry, or what?
>
>Brooks
>
>>

Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool than ever..
fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for anything where
you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[email protected]

March 2nd 04, 04:06 AM

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
>>> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air
>>Crew or
>>> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid can
>>you
>>> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>>
>>Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your call-up
>>notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time repeatedly
>>claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
>>what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it to the
>>recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
>>infantry, or what?
>>
>>Brooks
>>
>>>
>
>Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool than ever..
>fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for anything where
>you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
>
>
...I give up...you're (sadly) not equipped for intelligent
discussion...have a happy life Arthur old chap...

Sorry if I caused you any distress...
--

-Gord.

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 05:17 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Ragnar"
> >Date: 3/1/04 6:44 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > > Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
> >> >
> >> > If you just stopped lying, and started admitting when you had screwed
> >the
> >> > pooch (i.e., the whole "Guard was back home while we did the
fightin'"
> >> crap)
> >> > you'd have more friends. Continuing to deny reality after you have
been
> >> > corrected by umpteen other posters does little to enamor the average
> >> poster.
> >> >
> >> > Brooks
> >>
> >>
> >> Neither of you are exactly covering yourselves with glory in this
****ing
> >> match. Both of you are splashing yourselves AND the bystanders.
> >>
> >> A pox on both your houses! Anyone else feel the same way?
> >
> >Actually, it would be a pox on Art's house. Art has lied and been caught
> >out by Kevin. Its quite entertaining.
> >
> >
> And exactly what was that lie ****head?

Well, just to specify the *last* lie you uttered, it would be your continued
assertions, despite repeated corrections from numerous posters, that Guard
units were still sitting around their armories during WWII (when in fact the
ENTIRE National Guard had been serving on active duty since spring 1941 at
the latest, with some units having actually reported in during 1940), that
they were the "laughingstock" of fellows like you (despite the fact that
many Guard units had been in *combat* for almost two years before you even
put on a uniform), etc.

After that, we have to delve into your recent statement that you recieved a
call-up notice on your eighteenth birthday, leading to the question of just
how much of a "volunteer" you actually were. And BTW, these claims of yours
that the only way to get into the USAAF and into a flight crew was by
volunteering? More false claims from Art-- as verified by the following:

The USAF's Air University resources include reference to the fact that the
majority of the USAAF medics came from the draft pool (
www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/afhistory/ aaf_medical_services_wwii.pdf )

As to flight personnel, we have:

"The search for qualified pilots intensified in 1942. Early on, the Ferrying
Command scoured the country for all available civilian fliers; bush pilots,
test pilots, crop dusters, stunt pilots, barnstormers, and pilots who flew
on personal business or for fun all became candidates. These draftees were
expected to have five hundred hours of flying experience, a requirement that
soon dropped to two hundred to three hundred hours, depending on the
military's need. If they could pass a ninety-day probation period, they
became commissioned officers. By the end of 1942, a total of 1,372 pilots
had been commissioned, but the AAF's own flight-training programs began to
replace these conscripts after that date."

http://www.usaaf.net/ww2/airlift/airliftpg3.htm

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 05:31 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air
> >Crew or
> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid
can
> >you
> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
> >
> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your call-up
> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time repeatedly
> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it to
the
> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
> >infantry, or what?
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
>
> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool than
ever..
> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for anything
where
> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?

Geeze, you are just not right in the head. What is this fascination with
Ohio you seem to have? I believe I have spent a grand total of two nights in
that state--one during the funeral we performed (the one I have repeatedly
told you was my only military duty in that state), and a second when I went
to the museum at Wright Pat. And no, I, like every other post-Vietnam
servicemember, was not drafted--the draft was history in 1973, when I was
all of eleven years old. I did volunteer--without benefit of having received
a draft notice to force me into doing that.

Your rants are getting more and more outlandish...and they still never
answer the questions posed to you. I wonder why... is the truth a bit too
close for comfort?

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

Ragnar

March 2nd 04, 08:24 AM

Ragnar

March 2nd 04, 08:27 AM

Ragnar

March 2nd 04, 08:29 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Tex Houston"
> >Date: 3/1/04 5:24 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> > Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
> >>
> >> If you just stopped lying, and started admitting when you had screwed
the
> >> pooch (i.e., the whole "Guard was back home while we did the fightin'"
> >crap)
> >> you'd have more friends. Continuing to deny reality after you have been
> >> corrected by umpteen other posters does little to enamor the average
> >poster.
> >>
> >> Brooks
> >
> >
> >Neither of you are exactly covering yourselves with glory in this ****ing
> >match. Both of you are splashing yourselves AND the bystanders.
> >
> >A pox on both your houses! Anyone else feel the same way?
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >Tex Houston
> >
> >
> >
>
> For months I took his lying **** and never said a word. Now I am tired of
> taking his crap. And the free ride of that lying **** is over.

Then point out where he lied. Was it about the National Guard being in
Federal Service by 1941?

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 10:06 AM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>
>> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air
>> >Crew or
>> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid
>can
>> >you
>> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>> >
>> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your call-up
>> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time repeatedly
>> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
>> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it to
>the
>> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
>> >infantry, or what?
>> >
>> >Brooks
>> >
>> >>
>>
>> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool than
>ever..
>> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for anything
>where
>> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
>
>Art, why not just answer the question?
>
>

What question asshole?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Ragnar

March 2nd 04, 11:56 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Ragnar"
> >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >>
> >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into
Air
> >> >Crew or
> >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How stupid
> >can
> >> >you
> >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
> >> >
> >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your
call-up
> >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
repeatedly
> >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
> >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it
to
> >the
> >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
> >> >infantry, or what?
> >> >
> >> >Brooks
> >> >
> >> >>
> >>
> >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool than
> >ever..
> >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for
anything
> >where
> >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
> >
> >Art, why not just answer the question?
> >
> >
>
> What question asshole?

Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would think a man
of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.

As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question. Just
answer it and end the silliness.

George Z. Bush

March 2nd 04, 01:14 PM

Ragnar wrote:
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
>>> Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>>> From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>> Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>
>>>> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air
>>>> Crew or into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How
>>>> stupid can you be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>>>
>>> Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your call-up
>>> notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time repeatedly
>>> claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
>>> what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it to the
>>> recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
>>> infantry, or what?
>>>
>>> Brooks
>>>
>>>>
>>
>> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool than
>> ever.. fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for
>> anything where you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
>
> Art, why not just answer the question?

I can't (and won't) speak for Art, but thinking back to those days, a lot of
people did exactly that.
When their draft notices arrived in the mail, they made a beeline down to one of
the recruiting stations and signed up for anything but the Army's infantry.
That's the way it worked, and nobody criticized it at the time. Personally, I
never waited for the notice to arrive; it was going to inevitably anyhow. As
soon as I finished my junior year in college, I hightailed it down to the
recruiting office and signed up for the Aviation Cadet program.

George Z.

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 01:41 PM

"Ragnar" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> > >From: "Ragnar"
> > >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >
> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
Guard
> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> > >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >>
> > >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into
> Air
> > >> >Crew or
> > >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How
stupid
> > >can
> > >> >you
> > >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
> > >> >
> > >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your
> call-up
> > >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
> repeatedly
> > >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty).
So
> > >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it
> to
> > >the
> > >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
> > >> >infantry, or what?
> > >> >
> > >> >Brooks
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >>
> > >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool
than
> > >ever..
> > >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for
> anything
> > >where
> > >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
> > >
> > >Art, why not just answer the question?
> > >
> > >
> >
> > What question asshole?
>
> Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would think a
man
> of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.
>
> As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question. Just
> answer it and end the silliness.

Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he was
purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some of
his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring those
questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
mudslinging.

Brooks

>
>

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 03:27 PM

>ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"Ragnar" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>> > >From: "Ragnar"
>> > >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> > >Message-id: >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
>Guard
>> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> > >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> > >>
>> > >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into
>> Air
>> > >> >Crew or
>> > >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How
>stupid
>> > >can
>> > >> >you
>> > >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your
>> call-up
>> > >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
>> repeatedly
>> > >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty).
>So
>> > >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it
>> to
>> > >the
>> > >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
>> > >> >infantry, or what?
>> > >> >
>> > >> >Brooks
>> > >> >
>> > >> >>
>> > >>
>> > >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool
>than
>> > >ever..
>> > >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for
>> anything
>> > >where
>> > >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
>> > >
>> > >Art, why not just answer the question?
>> > >
>> > >
>> >
>> > What question asshole?
>>
>> Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would think a
>man
>> of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.
>>
>> As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question. Just
>> answer it and end the silliness.
>
>Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
>answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he was
>purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some of
>his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring those
>questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
>mudslinging.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>
>

And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still refuse to
post it liar.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 03:31 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "George Z. Bush"
>Date: 3/2/04 5:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Ragnar wrote:
>> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>> Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>>>> From: "Kevin Brooks"
>>>> Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>
>>>>> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted into Air
>>>>> Crew or into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How
>>>>> stupid can you be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>>>>
>>>> Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your call-up
>>>> notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time repeatedly
>>>> claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight duty). So
>>>> what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed it to
>the
>>>> recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in the
>>>> infantry, or what?
>>>>
>>>> Brooks
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool than
>>> ever.. fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for
>>> anything where you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
>>
>> Art, why not just answer the question?
>
>I can't (and won't) speak for Art, but thinking back to those days, a lot of
>people did exactly that.
>When their draft notices arrived in the mail, they made a beeline down to one
>of
>the recruiting stations and signed up for anything but the Army's infantry.
>That's the way it worked, and nobody criticized it at the time. Personally,
>I
>never waited for the notice to arrive; it was going to inevitably anyhow. As
>soon as I finished my junior year in college, I hightailed it down to the
>recruiting office and signed up for the Aviation Cadet program.
>
>George Z.
>
>
>
Because you hung back like a coward doesn't mean we all did. And when you
volunteered for the AAC did thay take you on spot or did they call you when
they were ready for you?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 07:23 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"Ragnar" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
Guard
> >> > >From: "Ragnar"
> >> > >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> > >Message-id: >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
> >Guard
> >> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> > >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> > >>
> >> > >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted
into
> >> Air
> >> > >> >Crew or
> >> > >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How
> >stupid
> >> > >can
> >> > >> >you
> >> > >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your
> >> call-up
> >> > >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
> >> repeatedly
> >> > >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight
duty).
> >So
> >> > >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed
it
> >> to
> >> > >the
> >> > >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in
the
> >> > >> >infantry, or what?
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >Brooks
> >> > >> >
> >> > >> >>
> >> > >>
> >> > >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool
> >than
> >> > >ever..
> >> > >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for
> >> anything
> >> > >where
> >> > >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
> >> > >
> >> > >Art, why not just answer the question?
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > What question asshole?
> >>
> >> Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would think a
> >man
> >> of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.
> >>
> >> As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question. Just
> >> answer it and end the silliness.
> >
> >Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
> >answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he was
> >purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some of
> >his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring those
> >questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
> >mudslinging.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
> And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still refuse
to
> post it liar.

That the Guard was a refuge for shirkers during WWII? (Kind of odd, being as
the order mobilizing the *entire* National Guard was published one month
*before* the draft was even approved by Congress) That the Guard was still
recruting in 1943 when you went into the service? (False, as the Guard had
been fully mobilized for about two years by that time, and there were no
local units to join until those units were demobilized in 1945)And now,
courtesy of your recent statement, all of those past claims that you
"volunteered" for service, when in fact you only joined up after receiving
your draft notice? That would be three falsehoods right there.

And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 07:28 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/2/04 11:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >
>> >"Ragnar" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
>Guard
>> >> > >From: "Ragnar"
>> >> > >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> > >Message-id: >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
>> >> > ...
>> >> > >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
>> >Guard
>> >> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >> > >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be drafted
>into
>> >> Air
>> >> > >> >Crew or
>> >> > >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service, How
>> >stupid
>> >> > >can
>> >> > >> >you
>> >> > >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received your
>> >> call-up
>> >> > >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
>> >> repeatedly
>> >> > >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight
>duty).
>> >So
>> >> > >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high tailed
>it
>> >> to
>> >> > >the
>> >> > >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving in
>the
>> >> > >> >infantry, or what?
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> >Brooks
>> >> > >> >
>> >> > >> >>
>> >> > >>
>> >> > >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger fool
>> >than
>> >> > >ever..
>> >> > >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered for
>> >> anything
>> >> > >where
>> >> > >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
>> >> > >
>> >> > >Art, why not just answer the question?
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> > What question asshole?
>> >>
>> >> Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would think a
>> >man
>> >> of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.
>> >>
>> >> As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question. Just
>> >> answer it and end the silliness.
>> >
>> >Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
>> >answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he was
>> >purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some of
>> >his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring those
>> >questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
>> >mudslinging.
>> >
>> >Brooks
>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>> And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still refuse
>to
>> post it liar.
>
>That the Guard was a refuge for shirkers during WWII? (Kind of odd, being as
>the order mobilizing the *entire* National Guard was published one month
>*before* the draft was even approved by Congress) That the Guard was still
>recruting in 1943 when you went into the service? (False, as the Guard had
>been fully mobilized for about two years by that time, and there were no
>local units to join until those units were demobilized in 1945)And now,
>courtesy of your recent statement, all of those past claims that you
>"volunteered" for service, when in fact you only joined up after receiving
>your draft notice? That would be three falsehoods right there.
>
>And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>

How come you never saw any combat? Cowardice?

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 07:30 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"

>And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...
>
>Brooks

I have a special motivation in taking you out of the killfile. And I'll keep
you out for the foreseeable future.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 07:45 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/2/04 11:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> >Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Ragnar" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
> >Guard
> >> >> > >From: "Ragnar"
> >> >> > >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> > >Message-id: >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> >> > ...
> >> >> > >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the
National
> >> >Guard
> >> >> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> >> > >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be
drafted
> >into
> >> >> Air
> >> >> > >> >Crew or
> >> >> > >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service,
How
> >> >stupid
> >> >> > >can
> >> >> > >> >you
> >> >> > >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received
your
> >> >> call-up
> >> >> > >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
> >> >> repeatedly
> >> >> > >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight
> >duty).
> >> >So
> >> >> > >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high
tailed
> >it
> >> >> to
> >> >> > >the
> >> >> > >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving
in
> >the
> >> >> > >> >infantry, or what?
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >Brooks
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger
fool
> >> >than
> >> >> > >ever..
> >> >> > >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered
for
> >> >> anything
> >> >> > >where
> >> >> > >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Art, why not just answer the question?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What question asshole?
> >> >>
> >> >> Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would
think a
> >> >man
> >> >> of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.
> >> >>
> >> >> As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question.
Just
> >> >> answer it and end the silliness.
> >> >
> >> >Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
> >> >answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he
was
> >> >purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some
of
> >> >his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring
those
> >> >questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
> >> >mudslinging.
> >> >
> >> >Brooks
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still
refuse
> >to
> >> post it liar.
> >
> >That the Guard was a refuge for shirkers during WWII? (Kind of odd, being
as
> >the order mobilizing the *entire* National Guard was published one month
> >*before* the draft was even approved by Congress) That the Guard was
still
> >recruting in 1943 when you went into the service? (False, as the Guard
had
> >been fully mobilized for about two years by that time, and there were no
> >local units to join until those units were demobilized in 1945)And now,
> >courtesy of your recent statement, all of those past claims that you
> >"volunteered" for service, when in fact you only joined up after
receiving
> >your draft notice? That would be three falsehoods right there.
> >
> >And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
>
> How come you never saw any combat? Cowardice?

Actually, the lack of a need that required the services of my sort of
specialized unit kept us from deploying for ODS, but if it makes you feel
any better we were on the deployment list. There was not a great deal of
need for bridge construction companies during that fight in the desert, and
at the time that is the duty I was assigned to, commanding a company. How
many units did you command? And again, you have been provided the examples
of your false statements that you requested--why don't you try addressing
those falsehoods of yours instead of heading off onto tangents? You asked
for them, and you got them--what are you going to DO about them?

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 07:51 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/2/04 11:45 AM Pacific

>Actually, the lack of a need that required the services of my sort of
>specialized unit kept us from deploying for ODS, but if it

Total horse ****.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 08:27 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/2/04 11:45 AM Pacific
>
> >Actually, the lack of a need that required the services of my sort of
> >specialized unit kept us from deploying for ODS, but if it
>
> Total horse ****.

Really? Care to point out where the services of a fixed bridge construction
outfit were required during ODS? AFAIK only one similar unit (264th EN CO
(MGB), part of the 20th EN BDE out of Bragg) made it into the theater, where
it promptly dumped its bridge in the sand and served as an ad hoc
transportation unit. But hey, keep whining--it is kind of fun watching you
dig that hole deeper, and deeper, and deeper... Now, back to your request
that I specify those falsehoods of your's--I did so, and you still have not
addressed them. Here they are again if you just happened to miss them:

1. You said the Guard was accepting recruits trying to avoid combat service
during 1943. Untrue.

2. You said the Guard was a "laughingstock" during WWII when you were in the
service--but in fact the Guard was in the thick of the fight, and the
performance of the Guard divisions was not any different from that of the
regular divisions, and was in some cases superior. As you are the ONLY
individual I have ever witnessed who made such a claim, and you have
repeatedly ignored the facts regarding where and when the Guard was in
combat and what they both acheived and suffered, it appears that your
assertion here was also false.

3. You have repeatedly claimed to have been a volunteer for military
service--but you have recently admitted that you received your "call-up" on
your eighteenth birthday. H'mmm...what's the *real* story there?

Lastly, we could go into your repeated claims that your outfit "never missed
its target"...but wait, in pont of fact another B-26 BG was recognized as
having the best record for bombing accuracy throughout the ETO, and they
missed at least *six* of their assigned targets. Curiouser and curiouser...

Are you going to address these or not? My guess is "not", and you never
intended to address them when you asked for the specifics in the first
place. Why? Because you *can't*, not without admitting your past claims are
pure, unadulterated bovine fecal matter. Leaving us wondering how much of
your other "information" is of similar consistency.

Brooks
>
>
> Arthur Kramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 08:38 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/2/04 12:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
>> >Date: 3/2/04 11:45 AM Pacific
>>
>> >Actually, the lack of a need that required the services of my sort of
>> >specialized unit kept us from deploying for ODS, but if it
>>
>> Total horse ****.
>
>Really? Care to point out where the services of a fixed bridge construction
>outfit were required during ODS? AFAIK only one similar unit (264th EN CO
>(MGB), part of the 20th EN BDE out of Bragg) made it into the theater, where
>it promptly dumped its bridge in the sand and served as an ad hoc
>transportation unit. But hey, keep whining--it is kind of fun watching you
>dig that hole deeper, and deeper, and deeper... Now, back to your request
>that I specify those falsehoods of your's--I did so, and you still have not
>addressed them. Here they are again if you just happened to miss them:
>
>1. You said the Guard was accepting recruits trying to avoid combat service
>during 1943. Untrue.
>
>2. You said the Guard was a "laughingstock" during WWII when you were in the
>service--but in fact the Guard was in the thick of the fight, and the
>performance of the Guard divisions was not any different from that of the
>regular divisions, and was in some cases superior. As you are the ONLY
>individual I have ever witnessed who made such a claim, and you have
>repeatedly ignored the facts regarding where and when the Guard was in
>combat and what they both acheived and suffered, it appears that your
>assertion here was also false.
>
>3. You have repeatedly claimed to have been a volunteer for military
>service--but you have recently admitted that you received your "call-up" on
>your eighteenth birthday. H'mmm...what's the *real* story there?
>
>Lastly, we could go into your repeated claims that your outfit "never missed
>its target"...but wait, in pont of fact another B-26 BG was recognized as
>having the best record for bombing accuracy throughout the ETO, and they
>missed at least *six* of their assigned targets. Curiouser and curiouser...
>
>Are you going to address these or not? My guess is "not", and you never
>intended to address them when you asked for the specifics in the first
>place. Why? Because you *can't*, not without admitting your past claims are
>pure, unadulterated bovine fecal matter. Leaving us wondering how much of
>your other "information" is of similar consistency.
>
>Brooks
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>
That is a;l crap and distortions you made up out of your total ignorance of
all matters military. How come you never came out from behind your safe desk
and volunteered for Airborne? Scared?You are no soldier. You are just another
sniveling wannabbee.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

March 2nd 04, 09:57 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/2/04 12:27 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> >Date: 3/2/04 11:45 AM Pacific
> >>
> >> >Actually, the lack of a need that required the services of my sort of
> >> >specialized unit kept us from deploying for ODS, but if it
> >>
> >> Total horse ****.
> >
> >Really? Care to point out where the services of a fixed bridge
construction
> >outfit were required during ODS? AFAIK only one similar unit (264th EN CO
> >(MGB), part of the 20th EN BDE out of Bragg) made it into the theater,
where
> >it promptly dumped its bridge in the sand and served as an ad hoc
> >transportation unit. But hey, keep whining--it is kind of fun watching
you
> >dig that hole deeper, and deeper, and deeper... Now, back to your request
> >that I specify those falsehoods of your's--I did so, and you still have
not
> >addressed them. Here they are again if you just happened to miss them:
> >
> >1. You said the Guard was accepting recruits trying to avoid combat
service
> >during 1943. Untrue.
> >
> >2. You said the Guard was a "laughingstock" during WWII when you were in
the
> >service--but in fact the Guard was in the thick of the fight, and the
> >performance of the Guard divisions was not any different from that of the
> >regular divisions, and was in some cases superior. As you are the ONLY
> >individual I have ever witnessed who made such a claim, and you have
> >repeatedly ignored the facts regarding where and when the Guard was in
> >combat and what they both acheived and suffered, it appears that your
> >assertion here was also false.
> >
> >3. You have repeatedly claimed to have been a volunteer for military
> >service--but you have recently admitted that you received your "call-up"
on
> >your eighteenth birthday. H'mmm...what's the *real* story there?
> >
> >Lastly, we could go into your repeated claims that your outfit "never
missed
> >its target"...but wait, in pont of fact another B-26 BG was recognized as
> >having the best record for bombing accuracy throughout the ETO, and they
> >missed at least *six* of their assigned targets. Curiouser and
curiouser...
> >
> >Are you going to address these or not? My guess is "not", and you never
> >intended to address them when you asked for the specifics in the first
> >place. Why? Because you *can't*, not without admitting your past claims
are
> >pure, unadulterated bovine fecal matter. Leaving us wondering how much of
> >your other "information" is of similar consistency.
> >
> >Brooks
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
> That is a;l crap and distortions

No, each and every one comes from your posts over the past few days. Other
posters have already also called you on most of these points--you have, of
course, refused to address any of their comments, instead choosing to lash
out with your usual personal insults. Kind of funny, actually--one of the
posters was excusing your "volunteering in front of immenent forced
induction" and you were too dim to recognize it, so you lsashed and burned
away at him, too.

you made up out of your total ignorance of
> all matters military.

Again, none were made up. You were earlier provided the direct quote that
was the basis for a couple of those items--are you now claiming you never
said any of these things? It won't be hard to verify the facts...so what is
it going to be, are you gonna 'fess up to having made each and every one of
these claims, or not (I hate to have to go back to Google, but if I
must...)?

How come you never came out from behind your safe desk
> and volunteered for Airborne?

I did volunteer for airborne. There were not enough slots for those of us
who did so. You have asked this before---why this fascination with
"airborne"?

> Scared?

No, and unlike you, i am not afraid of the truth, either. Keep digging that
hole, Art...

You are no soldier. You are just another
> sniveling wannabbee.

No, Art, I have done the whole soldiering bit, for a lot longer than you
did. And when I served, we did not take snot-nosed nineteen year old brats
and turn them into instant-Lieutenants (though I am confident that the
majority of those who were thus handled during your day were likely a lot
better officers than you would have been). Nor were we driven to "volunteer"
for service by an immenent draft threat. We did so because we thought it was
the right thing to do, in spite of the fact that it was not nearly as
popular an endeavor as it was during your day. And by the way, we won our
war too; it was called the Cold War, and it would not have turned out the
way it did if not for the efforts of the Ed's, the Gordon's, the BUFFDRVR's,
the Paul Adams', etc., etc., and so on who saw fit to join up, or continue
to serve even after "their" war was over. Some died doing their part, just
as dead as any of your buddies who fell to flak, nor were the fatalities
confined to flight crews or airborne units-- we had troops in our brigade
die every time we hit NTC for a rotation, and we lost troops during the
contstruction operations we executed in Central America as part of the fight
against communism. Not something to make light of.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

ArtKramr

March 2nd 04, 10:26 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Kevin Brooks"
>Date: 3/2/04 1:57 PM Pacific Standard Time

>ar too; it was called the Cold War, and it would not have turned out the
>way it did if not for the efforts of the Ed's, the Gordon's, the BUFFDRVR's,
>the Paul Adams', etc., etc., and so on who saw fit to join up, or continue
>to serve even after "their" war was over. Some died doing their part, just
>as dead as any of your buddies who fell to flak, nor were the fatalities
>confined to flight crews or airborne units-- we had troops in our brigade
>die every time we hit NTC for a rotation, and we lost troops during the
>contstruction operations we executed in Central America as part of the fight
>against communism. Not something to make light of.
>
>Brooks
>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>
>
And all this has zero to do with you. Now go away you are getting boring.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

BUFDRVR

March 3rd 04, 12:52 AM

>For months I took his lying **** and never said a word. Now I am tired of
>taking his crap. And the free ride of that lying **** is over.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

I'm at the point now where this is becoming too hard to watch. Like I said
earlier, I read Art's posts like a rubber necker slowing down at a bad car
wreck but, to keep the anology alive, this one is too messy...

BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Kevin Brooks

March 3rd 04, 03:15 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/2/04 1:57 PM Pacific Standard Time
>
> >ar too; it was called the Cold War, and it would not have turned out the
> >way it did if not for the efforts of the Ed's, the Gordon's, the
BUFFDRVR's,
> >the Paul Adams', etc., etc., and so on who saw fit to join up, or
continue
> >to serve even after "their" war was over. Some died doing their part,
just
> >as dead as any of your buddies who fell to flak, nor were the fatalities
> >confined to flight crews or airborne units-- we had troops in our brigade
> >die every time we hit NTC for a rotation, and we lost troops during the
> >contstruction operations we executed in Central America as part of the
fight
> >against communism. Not something to make light of.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
> And all this has zero to do with you. Now go away you are getting
boring.

It is obvious at this point that you are going to continue avoiding
answering the questions posed to you regarding your previous erroneous
posts, despite your pointed request to ennumerate them; not surprising, as
the ol' "ignore the question and attack the questioner" strategy is your
hallmark. Your info on the Guard in WWII is incorrect; your refusal to
simply say, "Ooops, I did not know that, I just misremembered", and instead
burying your head in the sand while hurling baseless accusations at those
who have pointed out your falsehoods, just demonstrates how morally bankrupt
you really are and how desperate you are to not have to face up to your own
mistakes. As the resident B-52 jockey noted, you are indeed a rather sad
case.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Ragnar

March 3rd 04, 03:17 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >Date: 3/2/04 11:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> >Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Ragnar" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
> >Guard
> >> >> > >From: "Ragnar"
> >> >> > >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> > >Message-id: >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> >> >> > ...
> >> >> > >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the
National
> >> >Guard
> >> >> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> >> >> > >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be
drafted
> >into
> >> >> Air
> >> >> > >> >Crew or
> >> >> > >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service,
How
> >> >stupid
> >> >> > >can
> >> >> > >> >you
> >> >> > >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received
your
> >> >> call-up
> >> >> > >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same time
> >> >> repeatedly
> >> >> > >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight
> >duty).
> >> >So
> >> >> > >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high
tailed
> >it
> >> >> to
> >> >> > >the
> >> >> > >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving
in
> >the
> >> >> > >> >infantry, or what?
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >Brooks
> >> >> > >> >
> >> >> > >> >>
> >> >> > >>
> >> >> > >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger
fool
> >> >than
> >> >> > >ever..
> >> >> > >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered
for
> >> >> anything
> >> >> > >where
> >> >> > >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >Art, why not just answer the question?
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > What question asshole?
> >> >>
> >> >> Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would
think a
> >> >man
> >> >> of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.
> >> >>
> >> >> As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question.
Just
> >> >> answer it and end the silliness.
> >> >
> >> >Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
> >> >answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he
was
> >> >purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some
of
> >> >his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring
those
> >> >questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
> >> >mudslinging.
> >> >
> >> >Brooks
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still
refuse
> >to
> >> post it liar.
> >
> >That the Guard was a refuge for shirkers during WWII? (Kind of odd, being
as
> >the order mobilizing the *entire* National Guard was published one month
> >*before* the draft was even approved by Congress) That the Guard was
still
> >recruting in 1943 when you went into the service? (False, as the Guard
had
> >been fully mobilized for about two years by that time, and there were no
> >local units to join until those units were demobilized in 1945)And now,
> >courtesy of your recent statement, all of those past claims that you
> >"volunteered" for service, when in fact you only joined up after
receiving
> >your draft notice? That would be three falsehoods right there.
> >
> >And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...
> >
> >Brooks
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >
> >
>
> How come you never saw any combat? Cowardice?

Nice try. Can't answer the question so you deflect attention by changing
the subject.

Just answer the question.

Kevin Brooks

March 3rd 04, 03:24 AM

"Ragnar" > wrote in message
...
>
> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> > >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> > >Date: 3/2/04 11:23 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >Message-id: >
> > >
> > >
> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> >ubject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> > >> >Date: 3/2/04 5:41 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >Message-id: >
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >"Ragnar" > wrote in message
> > >> ...
> > >> >>
> > >> >> "ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > >> >> ...
> > >> >> > >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National
> > >Guard
> > >> >> > >From: "Ragnar"
> > >> >> > >Date: 3/2/04 12:24 AM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >> > >Message-id: >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> > >> >> > ...
> > >> >> > >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the
> National
> > >> >Guard
> > >> >> > >> >From: "Kevin Brooks"
> > >> >> > >> >Date: 3/1/04 7:52 PM Pacific Standard Time
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> >> You are so ****ing stupid and ignorant. YOu can't be
> drafted
> > >into
> > >> >> Air
> > >> >> > >> >Crew or
> > >> >> > >> >> into the Air Cadet Corps. It is 100% a volunteer service,
> How
> > >> >stupid
> > >> >> > >can
> > >> >> > >> >you
> > >> >> > >> >> be? Your ignorance is appalling.
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >Uhmm..you were the one who specifically stated you received
> your
> > >> >> call-up
> > >> >> > >> >notice on your eighteenth birthday, and have at the same
time
> > >> >> repeatedly
> > >> >> > >> >claimed to have volunteered for service (not just for flight
> > >duty).
> > >> >So
> > >> >> > >> >what's the story (this time)? You got your notice and high
> tailed
> > >it
> > >> >> to
> > >> >> > >the
> > >> >> > >> >recruiting office in order to stay one-step ahead of serving
> in
> > >the
> > >> >> > >> >infantry, or what?
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >Brooks
> > >> >> > >> >
> > >> >> > >> >>
> > >> >> > >>
> > >> >> > >> Your lack of military experience is turning you into a bigger
> fool
> > >> >than
> > >> >> > >ever..
> > >> >> > >> fool. You were obviously drafted since oyu never volunteered
> for
> > >> >> anything
> > >> >> > >where
> > >> >> > >> you might get hurt. I guess you are the Ohio Coward. Right?
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >Art, why not just answer the question?
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > What question asshole?
> > >> >>
> > >> >> Again with the namecalling. Is that all you can do? One would
> think a
> > >> >man
> > >> >> of your years and alleged experiences would be more mature.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question.
> Just
> > >> >> answer it and end the silliness.
> > >> >
> > >> >Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he
can't
> > >> >answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that
he
> was
> > >> >purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as
some
> of
> > >> >his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring
> those
> > >> >questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
> > >> >mudslinging.
> > >> >
> > >> >Brooks
> > >> >
> > >> >>
> > >> >>
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> And exacrtly what is the lie you alledge I told liar? You still
> refuse
> > >to
> > >> post it liar.
> > >
> > >That the Guard was a refuge for shirkers during WWII? (Kind of odd,
being
> as
> > >the order mobilizing the *entire* National Guard was published one
month
> > >*before* the draft was even approved by Congress) That the Guard was
> still
> > >recruting in 1943 when you went into the service? (False, as the Guard
> had
> > >been fully mobilized for about two years by that time, and there were
no
> > >local units to join until those units were demobilized in 1945)And now,
> > >courtesy of your recent statement, all of those past claims that you
> > >"volunteered" for service, when in fact you only joined up after
> receiving
> > >your draft notice? That would be three falsehoods right there.
> > >
> > >And you KEEP forgetting that you already killfiled me (again)...
> > >
> > >Brooks
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Arthur Kramer
> > >
> > >
> >
> > How come you never saw any combat? Cowardice?
>
> Nice try. Can't answer the question so you deflect attention by changing
> the subject.
>
> Just answer the question.

That'll never happen. Art continually brags about how courageous he was, but
when it comes to facing up to quotes of his own words, he always manages to
avoid answering the questions. Seems his courage runs out when it comes to
facing up to his own past erroneous statements.

Brooks
>
>

Tarver Engineering

March 4th 04, 05:32 PM

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...

> I'm for a kinder, gentler newsgroup but then I also wish for World Peace.
> Like I said, neither of you have covered yourselves in glory.

What else has Kevin Brooks ever brought to ram?

Tarver Engineering

March 4th 04, 07:24 PM

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ragnar" > wrote in message
> ...

> >
> > As for the question, you read Kevin's post and know the question. Just
> > answer it and end the silliness.
>
> Because it is apparently another one of those questions that he can't
> answer, as it would demonstrate that his past repeated claims that he was
> purely a volunteer for service were as lacking in truthfulness as some of
> his other rants. Art, as you know, has a long history of ignoring those
> questions that are problematic and instead leaping into baseless
> mudslinging.

It is only politics Kevin, grow up.

Joe Osman

March 4th 04, 10:39 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "John Mullen"
> >Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> > (BUFDRVR) wrote:
> >>
> >> >I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
time
> >or his
> >> >God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth
or
> >> >keyboard should immediately disregarded.
> >>
> >> Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
> >> gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
> >> crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
> >> ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.
> >>
> >
> >Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
> >his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.
> >
> >John
> >
> >
> Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
>
>
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
the National Guard?

The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries of
their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.

Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.

During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.

Joe

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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ArtKramr

March 5th 04, 12:08 AM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: "Joe Osman"
>Date: 3/4/04 2:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>> >From: "John Mullen"
>> >Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
>> >Message-id: >
>> >
>> >"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> > (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
>time
>> >or his
>> >> >God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth
>or
>> >> >keyboard should immediately disregarded.
>> >>
>> >> Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
>> >> gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
>> >> crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
>> >> ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.
>> >>
>> >
>> >Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
>> >his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.
>> >
>> >John
>> >
>> >
>> Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Arthur Kramer
>> 344th BG 494th BS
>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>
>
>Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
>the National Guard?
>
>The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
>were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
>State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
>service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries of
>their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
>men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
>with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
>this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.
>
>Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
>types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
>Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.
>
>During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
>which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
>manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
>were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.
>
>Joe
>

Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National
Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and
never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

March 5th 04, 04:01 AM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: "Joe Osman"
> >Date: 3/4/04 2:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >> >From: "John Mullen"
> >> >Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >> >Message-id: >
> >> >
> >> >"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >> > (BUFDRVR) wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
> >time
> >> >or his
> >> >> >God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his
mouth
> >or
> >> >> >keyboard should immediately disregarded.
> >> >>
> >> >> Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
> >> >> gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
> >> >> crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
> >> >> ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority
of
> >> >his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.
> >> >
> >> >John
> >> >
> >> >
> >> Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Arthur Kramer
> >> 344th BG 494th BS
> >> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> >> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> >> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
> >>
> >
> >Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII
with
> >the National Guard?
> >
> >The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
> >were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
> >State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
> >service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries
of
> >their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
> >men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
> >with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
> >this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.
> >
> >Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
> >types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State
Defense
> >Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.
> >
> >During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
> >which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
> >manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these
units
> >were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.
> >
> >Joe
> >
>
> Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
National
> Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the
"Guard" and
> never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

You are still way off-base. He was referring to the State Guard (as some
states called it, others using the outright term State Militia) which was
formed to provide the kind of "homeland defense" services that the National
Guard had provided to its states before it was mobilized in late 1940-early
1941. Once placed in federal service, the states lost all control of the
National Guard units they had--by early spring in 1941 there were NO
National Guard units remaining; they had all reported off to the various
federal mobilization centers to begin training up for wartime overseas
service. Some left early--units from New Mexico went to the Philippines in
mid/late 1941, for example, which is why Guardsmen were included in the
roles of the Bataan Death March. Those "State Guard" forces that were formed
by the seperate states were made up of those too old, too young, or already
excepted from service dur to their civilian occupations being considered
critical to support the war effort; being in the State Guard was NOT a way
to avoid federal military service, since any able bodied member who did not
have a deferment was still subject to the draft. After the war most of these
state militia organizations faded away, though a few states kept them
running at one level or another. During the 1980's, when the states realized
how dependent the Army and Air Force were on their respective National Guard
components, many states resurrected these militia forces to ensure they had
a ready force able to help out if their National Guard units were
federalized.

This is about the sixth time the fact that the National Guard was in its
*entirety* federalized well before you even finished high school has been
"explained further" to you--I doubt this attempt will fare any better than
the previous ones.

Brooks
>
>
> Arthur Kramer
> 344th BG 494th BS
> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>

Peter Stickney

March 5th 04, 04:22 AM

In article >,
(ArtKramr) writes:
>>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>>From: "Joe Osman"
>>Date: 3/4/04 2:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>
>>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>>> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>>> >From: "John Mullen"
>>> >Date: 3/1/04 11:05 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>> >Message-id: >
>>> >
>>> >"Mike Marron" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> >> > (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> >I doubt it. Art's memeories are so twisted and distorted, either by
>>time
>>> >or his
>>> >> >God awful personality (or both?), that anything coming out his mouth
>>or
>>> >> >keyboard should immediately disregarded.
>>> >>
>>> >> Exactly. Art has absolutely no business posting his insane WW2
>>> >> gibberish on Usenet and instead he should be working on leather
>>> >> crafts and paint-by-number projects in some VA hospital mental
>>> >> ward or nursing home while under constant 24/7 adult supervision.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
>>> >his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.
>>> >
>>> >John
>>> >
>>> >
>>> Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Arthur Kramer
>>> 344th BG 494th BS
>>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>>
>>
>>Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
>>the National Guard?
>>
>>The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
>>were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
>>State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
>>service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries of
>>their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
>>men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
>>with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
>>this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.
>>
>>Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
>>types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
>>Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.
>>
>>During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
>>which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
>>manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
>>were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.
>>
>>Joe
>>
>
> Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National
> Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and
> never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

Art, the National Guard as we know it today was pretty much
established under the Militia Act of 1903, which required that the
various units of teh Organized Militia of the various States had to
conform to U.S. Army standards of equipment, organization, and
training, Federal control was tightened throughout the decade
following, and the National Guard was made part of the United States
Army via the National Defence Act of 1914. This recognized 4 elements
of the land forces of the U.S,: The Regular Army, the National Guard,
the Reserve Corps, and the wartime Volunteer Army. (The regular Army
was made up of Career Soldiers. The National Guard was the part-time
reserve, organized into units housed by the States and available to
the Governors of those States. The Reserve Corps was part-time
soldiers not formed into units, The Volunteer Army was to have been
the units formed during wartime expansion of the Army. By the time of
the U.S. ENtry into the FIrst World War, the Volunteer Army was
replaced by the National Army, which was made up of people inducted
via the Draft. The Federal GOvernment gained the power to appoint all
Officers in 1914.

(As an aside, Regular Army units are distinguished by Division numbers
running from 1 through 25, and Regimental designations running from
1-100. National Guard Division numerical designations run from 26-62,
and Regiments from 100-168. National Army units had Division and
Regemntal numbers higher than these. So any Division between 26 adn
62 (That actual Highest number activated was 45) was a National Guard
Division.)

In August 1918, all Active Units (Regulars, Activated Guard Units, and
National Army) were fused inot the same organization. One they're
called up or activated, they're considered completely intergangable
with the Regular Army.

The National Guard was called up beginning in February 1940, and was
not released until Nov/Dec. 1945.

Most of this is from the "Infantry" volume of the Army Lineage Series,
Mahon and Danysh, Office of teh Chief of Military History, Washington
D.C., 1972, and "World War II Order of Battle", Stanton, Galahad, NY,
NY, 1991.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

ArtKramr

March 5th 04, 05:32 AM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: (Peter Stickney)
>Date: 3/4/04 8:22 PM Pacific Standard Time

>Personally although I don't always agree with Art, I find the majority of
>>>> >his posts far more interesting and on-topic than yours.
>>>> >
>>>> >John
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> Thank you John. Friends are hard to find around here. (sigh)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Arthur Kramer
>>>> 344th BG 494th BS
>>>> England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
>>>> Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
>>>> http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer
>>>>
>>>
>>>Art, is there a chance that you are confusing the State Guards of WWII with
>>>the National Guard?
>>>
>>>The State Guard units (not part of the National Guard)
>>>were authorized by a Federal Act of October 21, 1940. This act prohibited
>>>State Guard units from being called, drafted, or ordered into Federal
>>>service nor could these troops be ordered to serve outside the boundaries
>of
>>>their own states. All but 4 states had State Guards and there were 90,000
>>>men in these units by December 7, 1941. They lasted all through the war,
>>>with California having 6,000 in its State Guard as late as 1944. Most of
>>>this info is from http://www.2-185armor.com/CASMRHist1.htm.
>>>
>>>Due to the large number of National Guardsmen being activated today these
>>>types of units are being resurrected, but are usually called State Defense
>>>Forces now. See http://www.sgaus.org/.
>>>
>>>During the Civil War, a lot of southern men were in these types of units,
>>>which could only be activated by the state's governer. This reduced the
>>>manpower of the Confederate Army substantially, and members of these units
>>>were looked upon as slackers by Confederate soldiers.
>>>
>>>Joe
>>>
>>
>> Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
>National
>> Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard"
>and
>> never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.
>
>Art, the National Guard as we know it today was pretty much
>established under the Militia Act of 1903, which required that the
>various units of teh Organized Militia of the various States had to
>conform to U.S. Army standards of equipment, organization, and
>training, Federal control was tightened throughout the decade
>following, and the National Guard was made part of the United States
>Army via the National Defence Act of 1914. This recognized 4 elements
>of the land forces of the U.S,: The Regular Army, the National Guard,
>the Reserve Corps, and the wartime Volunteer Army. (The regular Army
>was made up of Career Soldiers. The National Guard was the part-time
>reserve, organized into units housed by the States and available to
>the Governors of those States. The Reserve Corps was part-time
>soldiers not formed into units, The Volunteer Army was to have been
>the units formed during wartime expansion of the Army. By the time of
>the U.S. ENtry into the FIrst World War, the Volunteer Army was
>replaced by the National Army, which was made up of people inducted
>via the Draft. The Federal GOvernment gained the power to appoint all
>Officers in 1914.
>
>(As an aside, Regular Army units are distinguished by Division numbers
>running from 1 through 25, and Regimental designations running from
>1-100. National Guard Division numerical designations run from 26-62,
>and Regiments from 100-168. National Army units had Division and
>Regemntal numbers higher than these. So any Division between 26 adn
>62 (That actual Highest number activated was 45) was a National Guard
>Division.)
>
>In August 1918, all Active Units (Regulars, Activated Guard Units, and
>National Army) were fused inot the same organization. One they're
>called up or activated, they're considered completely intergangable
>with the Regular Army.
>
>The National Guard was called up beginning in February 1940, and was
>not released until Nov/Dec. 1945.
>
>Most of this is from the "Infantry" volume of the Army Lineage Series,
>Mahon and Danysh, Office of teh Chief of Military History, Washington
>D.C., 1972, and "World War II Order of Battle", Stanton, Galahad, NY,
>NY, 1991.
>
>--
>Pete Stickney

I donlt know Peter. Remember we were kids at the time waiting to be 18 and go
to war. Almost all of us in high school volunteered for either the Army Air
Corps ro the Navy V12 program waiting for our 18th birthday so we could be
called up and start training at flying school. Those very few who went into
the "Guard" were considered cowards and held in contempt and none of them ever
went to war. The stuff you are telling me is quite interesting, but we knew
nothing about that at the time. But thanks for the info.Appreciate it.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Cub Driver

March 5th 04, 10:02 AM

>> Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the National
>> Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the "Guard" and
>> never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.

He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard
when it was--well, nationalized.

Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one
(not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping
their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of
course also have provided some of the traditional services of law
enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard.

Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there
were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been
disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So
"everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a
misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain.

There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

ArtKramr

March 5th 04, 01:44 PM

>Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: Cub Driver
>Date: 3/5/04 2:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>>> Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
>National
>>> Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the
>"Guard" and
>>> never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain further.
>
>He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard
>when it was--well, nationalized.
>
>Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one
>(not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping
>their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of
>course also have provided some of the traditional services of law
>enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard.
>
>Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there
>were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been
>disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So
>"everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a
>misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain.
>
>There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
>outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
>don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
>possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
>into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.
>

Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school when we
violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the primary
entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't be called
to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or something, so we
had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news every day
and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids among us
who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called. One was
to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and Fairchild
were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out that a
kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either the Army
AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in the world.
We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12 programs come
out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came out in
full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could for our
country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was all to
glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't wait to go.
Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time went in to
the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the war would
end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the "guard" or those
who got defferments doing war work. But they were never one of us. And never
would be.

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Kevin Brooks

March 5th 04, 02:04 PM

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: Countering Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
> >From: Cub Driver
> >Date: 3/5/04 2:02 AM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >>> Well it was called the "Guard" and it was statewide. But isn't the
> >National
> >>> Guard a statewide service? ,. All I know is that guys went into the
> >"Guard" and
> >>> never went to war and everyone hated them for it..Please explain
further.
> >
> >He's referring to the State Guard, which replaced the National Guard
> >when it was--well, nationalized.
> >
> >Primarily the State Guard did ceremonial stuff. Massachusetts had one
> >(not every state did) and I remember these "old guys" from WWI popping
> >their buttons at a Memorial Day parade in Concord MA. They would of
> >course also have provided some of the traditional services of law
> >enforcement that in peacetime go to the National Guard.
> >
> >Anyone who went into the State Guard of WWII (well, I suppose there
> >were some officers--there always seem to be!) would have been
> >disqualified from active duty because of age or physical condition. So
> >"everyone hated them for it" is either a mis-remembering or a
> >misunderstanding. It was the equivalent of the Home Guard in Britain.
> >
> >There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
> >outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
> >don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
> >possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
> >into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.
> >
>
> Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school when
we
> violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the primary
> entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't be
called
> to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or something,
so we
> had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news every
day
> and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids
among us
> who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called. One
was
> to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and
Fairchild
> were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out that
a
> kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either the
Army
> AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in the
world.
> We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12 programs
come
> out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came out
in
> full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could for
our
> country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was all
to
> glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't wait to
go.
> Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time went
in to
> the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the war
would
> end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the "guard" or
those
> who got defferments doing war work. But they were never one of us. And
never
> would be.

Geeze, you just don't GET it, do you? As Cub Driver has politley informed
you, going into the State Guard did NOT get your buddy a deferment. Where
you got that idea I have no idea; for that matter, how you grew up and lived
through that period without realizing that your local National Guard unit,
like every other one from across the country, had been inducted into federal
service when you were, oh...fifteen or sixteen years old says something
about your qulaifications to make (baseless) pronouncements about the Guard,
be it the National variety or your state militia force.

Brooks

>
>
> Arthur Kramer

B2431

March 5th 04, 06:28 PM

>From: Cub Driver

<snip>

>There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
>outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
>don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
>possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
>into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.
>
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (requires authentication)
>

The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
selling it?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Peter Stickney

March 6th 04, 03:32 AM

In article >,
(B2431) writes:
>>From: Cub Driver
>
>
>
> <snip>
>
>>There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
>>outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
>>don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
>>possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
>>into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.
>>
>>
>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>email: (requires authentication)
>>
>
> The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
> selling it?

Dan, or is it Dan?
Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot
stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg.

(I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel
Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an
ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at
200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo
hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the
commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812
Overture, played at half speed.)

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Cub Driver

March 6th 04, 10:24 AM

>The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
>selling it?

Unfortunately, I sporterized the 45/70, so it lost a lot of its value
right there (if it had any). And when I was in the army, my brother
sold it.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

B2431

March 6th 04, 09:50 PM

>Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>From: (Peter Stickney)
>Date: 3/5/2004 9:32 PM Central Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>In article >,
> (B2431) writes:
>>>From: Cub Driver
>>
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
>>>outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
>>>don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
>>>possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
>>>into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.
>>>
>>>
>>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>>email: (requires authentication)
>>>
>>
>> The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
>> selling it?
>
>Dan, or is it Dan?
>Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot
>stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg.
>
>(I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel
>Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an
>ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at
>200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo
>hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the
>commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812
>Overture, played at half speed.)
>
>--
>Pete Stickney
> A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
> bad measures. -- Daniel Webster
>
I would have used my trapdoor Springfield to avoid the half speed effect. I
truly regret having sold it, but a divorce can be quite a problem for a gun
collection.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Peter Stickney

March 8th 04, 04:59 AM

In article >,
(B2431) writes:
>>Widespread Ignorance About the National Guard
>>From: (Peter Stickney)
>>Date: 3/5/2004 9:32 PM Central Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>In article >,
>> (B2431) writes:
>>>>From: Cub Driver
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>>There was an armory at St Aidan's School in Brookline MA that was
>>>>outfitted with rolling-block Springfield rifles from the Civil War. I
>>>>don't *think* it dated from WWII--more likely WWI--but anything is
>>>>possible. One of those 45/70s found its way from St Aidan's collection
>>>>into mine. I used it for deer-hunting and plinking rats.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>all the best -- Dan Ford
>>>>email: (requires authentication)
>>>>
>>>
>>> The rolling block is actually post Civil War. Would you be interested in
>>> selling it?
>>
>>Dan, or is it Dan?
>>Hang on to it. The .45/70 has been proven to be a reliable one-shot
>>stop against Durham's most voracious Predator, the Rolling Beer Keg.
>>
>>(I managed to prove this one afternoon at the Dover Municipal Gravel
>>Pit. I needed to sight in my Trapdoor, and somebody'd left behing an
>>ampty aluminum keg. I found that you could reliably knock it over at
>>200 yds with the old beast. Of course, it rang like a bell when yo
>>hit it. According to the cops who showed up to find out what the
>>commotion was, it sounded like a Heavy Metal version of the 1812
>>Overture, played at half speed.)

> I would have used my trapdoor Springfield to avoid the half speed effect. I
> truly regret having sold it, but a divorce can be quite a problem for a gun
> collection.

Well, teh problem wasn't so much Rate of Fire, y'see, but Time of
Flight. At 200 Yds, it was taking the bullet the better part of a
second to get down there, So, it was "Boom!,......Bong!",
"Boom!.........Bong!" I suppose that wo could have worked up some
interesting counterpoint, if I'd brought the Garand along. AS it was,
the Abutters thought it was Some Strange Ritual in Progress, and
called the Police. No big deal though, we let them shoot a few rounds
and all was O.K.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Michael

March 8th 04, 09:10 PM

(ArtKramr) wrote in message >...

<snip>

>Well I guess that makes sense. Remember that we were in high school
when we
>violunteered for the Air Corp, barely 17 years old. We took the
primary
>entrance exams (I still remember some of the questions).We couldn't
be called
>to active duty until we were 18, there was a law against it or
something, so we
>had to wait it out. That wasn't easy since we were getting war news
every day
>and were eager to go.While we were eager to go, there were those kids
among us
>who hung back. They had all kinds of plots to keep from being called.
One was
>to go out to Long Island and get a job in a war plant. Grumman and
Fairchild
>were out there. GoIng into the "guard" was another. Once we found out
that a
>kid went into the "guard" instead of volunteering with us for either
the Army
>AIr Corp or the Navy V-12 program that kid didn't have a friend in
the world.

Wow, what an ignorant bunch of kids you were. You weren't even sure
what the hell the kid's plans were (other than he was going into this
"guard" you've dreamed up), and you alienated him.

>We had had representatives from both the Air Corps and the V-12
programs come
>out to talk to us urging us to volunteer for their forces, They came
out in
>full uniform covered with wngs and ribbons telling us all we could
for our
>country if we flew with them. To a bunch of high school kids it was
all to
>glamourious for words.. No one was left unimpressed. We couldn't
wait to go.
>Well we went soon enough but our eagerness never waned from the time
went in to
>the time we went into action. We all shared the same fear that the
war would
>end before we got there. Except for the kids who went into the
"guard" or >those who got defferments doing war work. But they were
never one of us. And >never would be.

Yeah, yeah-yeah, yeah-yeah. Jeez, we've heard it from you a hundred
times. You're something special and anyone who didn't join the
service the second they could and get into action ain't ****. Christ,
anytime I run into a vet as arrogant and boastful as you I have to
wonder what they were really like back then.

Michael