SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET

[ArtKramr]

Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket

Emilio Griego was our engineer/tail gunner. He was short smiley fellow with a
shy grin and a shy manner. When you spoke to him he would look at the ground,
smiling but always answer you with a snappy "Yes Sir" and get to work with
great energy and dedication. He was a very good engineer and Paul (Paul Shorts
Lake Charles LA our pilot) depended on him a lot to work with the mechanics to
keep "Willie" in good shape. Very often he would be up all through the night
working with the mechanics to make sure all would be well for the morning
mission. He was a good soldier, a fine fellow and an asset to our crew that we
all appreciated. But he did have one shortcoming, he wouldn't follow orders. A
particular set of orders that is. He would never wear his flak jacket. He would
sit on it. We would scream at him to put the damn jacket on. He would smile and
say "yes sir, I'll wear it". But on the next mission it was the same thing.
Ordering, screaming, yelling, threatening could never get Griego to wear that
damn flak jacket. But he always said, "yes sir. I'll wear it next time". But he
never did. Then on the 24th of March 1945 we hit the Viersen commuications
center. Mallory and his crew were shot down. No chutes were seen to open. We
took some heavy flak hits but kept on going. On landing out came Griego holding
up his flak jacket for all of us to see. He had been sitting on it again and it
was imbedded with chunks of flak and the canvas cover torn to shreds. Griego
had a triumphant smile from ear to ear. Sitting on that flak jacket had saved
Griego's life. We never asked him to put on his flak jacket again.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------

Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket
>
> Emilio Griego was our engineer/tail gunner. He was short smiley fellow
with a
> shy grin and a shy manner. When you spoke to him he would look at the
ground,
> smiling but always answer you with a snappy "Yes Sir" and get to work with
> great energy and dedication. He was a very good engineer and Paul (Paul
Shorts
> Lake Charles LA our pilot) depended on him a lot to work with the
mechanics to
> keep "Willie" in good shape. Very often he would be up all through the
night
> working with the mechanics to make sure all would be well for the morning
> mission. He was a good soldier, a fine fellow and an asset to our crew
that we
> all appreciated. But he did have one shortcoming, he wouldn't follow
orders. A
> particular set of orders that is. He would never wear his flak jacket. He
would
> sit on it. We would scream at him to put the damn jacket on. He would
smile and
> say "yes sir, I'll wear it". But on the next mission it was the same
thing.
> Ordering, screaming, yelling, threatening could never get Griego to wear
that
> damn flak jacket.

So you let a man deliberately and repeatedly disobey a direct order? Didn't
the officers on your crew have any balls at all?

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "Ragnar"
>Date: 3/2/04 7:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>> Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket
>>
>> Emilio Griego was our engineer/tail gunner. He was short smiley fellow
>with a
>> shy grin and a shy manner. When you spoke to him he would look at the
>ground,
>> smiling but always answer you with a snappy "Yes Sir" and get to work with
>> great energy and dedication. He was a very good engineer and Paul (Paul
>Shorts
>> Lake Charles LA our pilot) depended on him a lot to work with the
>mechanics to
>> keep "Willie" in good shape. Very often he would be up all through the
>night
>> working with the mechanics to make sure all would be well for the morning
>> mission. He was a good soldier, a fine fellow and an asset to our crew
>that we
>> all appreciated. But he did have one shortcoming, he wouldn't follow
>orders. A
>> particular set of orders that is. He would never wear his flak jacket. He
>would
>> sit on it. We would scream at him to put the damn jacket on. He would
>smile and
>> say "yes sir, I'll wear it". But on the next mission it was the same
>thing.
>> Ordering, screaming, yelling, threatening could never get Griego to wear
>that
>> damn flak jacket.
>
>So you let a man deliberately and repeatedly disobey a direct order? Didn't
>the officers on your crew have any balls at all?
>
>
No balls at all. At least not as much as you had when you flew all your
missions.. Tell us about it


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Dave Holford]

ArtKramr wrote:
>
> Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET


> He was a good soldier, a fine fellow and an asset to our crew
> that we all appreciated. But he did have one shortcoming,
> he wouldn't follow orders. A particular set of orders that is.
> He would never wear his flak jacket. He would sit on it.
> We would scream at him to put the damn jacket on. He would
> smile and say "yes sir, I'll wear it". But on the next mission
> it was the same thing.

> Ordering, screaming, yelling, threatening
> could never get Griego to wear that damn flak jacket.
>


After all your postings about "we always followed orders without
question" you post this.

A while back you posted about the pilot who ignored repeated orders from
your CO until he finally broke a B-26.

Something does not fit here.
A Sgt. ignores direct orders with impunity to save his own skin, yet
officers would not break radio silence to save their squadron mates from
a flak trap.

Did people in your unit follow orders or not?

Dave

[D. Strang]

"ArtKramr" > wrote
> Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket
>
[snip]

> We never asked him to put on his flak jacket again.

There was a famous book and screenplay written "Friendly Fire"
(Starring Carol Burnett and Ned Beatty). The story starts out
with their son getting killed by an artillery round. It's not as
dramatic a hit, as you would think. As a matter of fact, his mother
insisted on having the casket opened, and there he was; no
wounds showing.

What makes the story famous, is that the officer who investigated
the death, was Norman Schwarzkopf. He found that, while the
artillery guys were drinking on the job, they had put in the
coordinates given by the soldiers in the field, but they forgot to make
an adjustment after the spotting round was fired. They followed
with a real round (heavier), and it hit the trees causing a pre-mature
burst.

The dead soldier was hit with a sliver of metal that shot right through
his heart.

Schwarzkopf always forced his men to wear flak jackets, and he had
a list of 18 year old idiots who were dead, and their parents were
****ed off at him for not saving their sons ass.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "D. Strang"
>Date: 3/2/04 7:33 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: <kmc1c.7697$m4.4070@okepread03>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote
>> Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket
>>
>[snip]
>
>> We never asked him to put on his flak jacket again.
>
>There was a famous book and screenplay written "Friendly Fire"
>(Starring Carol Burnett and Ned Beatty). The story starts out
>with their son getting killed by an artillery round. It's not as
>dramatic a hit, as you would think. As a matter of fact, his mother
>insisted on having the casket opened, and there he was; no
>wounds showing.
>
>What makes the story famous, is that the officer who investigated
>the death, was Norman Schwarzkopf. He found that, while the
>artillery guys were drinking on the job, they had put in the
>coordinates given by the soldiers in the field, but they forgot to make
>an adjustment after the spotting round was fired. They followed
>with a real round (heavier), and it hit the trees causing a pre-mature
>burst.
>
>The dead soldier was hit with a sliver of metal that shot right through
>his heart.
>
>Schwarzkopf always forced his men to wear flak jackets, and he had
>a list of 18 year old idiots who were dead, and their parents were
>****ed off at him for not saving their sons ass.
>
>
We all wore our flak jacjcktes all the time, except for Griego. But when you
watch flak over a period of tkme it seemed that the stuff burst below us more
than level or above us. So I guess that fearing being hit from below is not all
that dumb. I guess Griego felt that way and we coudn't argue with it since he
would have been dead if he had listened to us instead of sitting on it. Giego
died about 5 year ago, and just before he died we got together and of course we
disscused tha incident. And that is what made me remember it and write about
it on my web site. We all want to do things by the book, But this is one case
where the book was wrong and my old friend Griego was right..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[The CO]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...

> We all wore our flak jacjcktes all the time, except for Griego. But
when you
> watch flak over a period of tkme it seemed that the stuff burst
below us more
> than level or above us. So I guess that fearing being hit from below
is not all
> that dumb.

I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
places) sitting on their
helmets while being choppered as a protection for certain vital personal
equipment from small arms
and the like. 'Death from Above' v "Castration from Below'.

IIRC, this actually gets featured in the movie 'Apocalypse Now'.

The CO

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "The CO"
>Date: 3/2/04 9:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>
>"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
>
>> We all wore our flak jacjcktes all the time, except for Griego. But
>when you
>> watch flak over a period of tkme it seemed that the stuff burst
>below us more
>> than level or above us. So I guess that fearing being hit from below
>is not all
>> that dumb.
>
>I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
>places) sitting on their
>helmets while being choppered as a protection for certain vital personal
>equipment from small arms
>and the like. 'Death from Above' v "Castration from Below'.
>
>IIRC, this actually gets featured in the movie 'Apocalypse Now'.
>
>The CO
>
>
Interesting. Maybe Griego was smarter than all of us.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Ragnar]

"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
...
> >Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
> >From: "Ragnar"
> >Date: 3/2/04 7:08 PM Pacific Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >
> >"ArtKramr" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket
> >>
> >> Emilio Griego was our engineer/tail gunner. He was short smiley fellow
> >with a
> >> shy grin and a shy manner. When you spoke to him he would look at the
> >ground,
> >> smiling but always answer you with a snappy "Yes Sir" and get to work
with
> >> great energy and dedication. He was a very good engineer and Paul (Paul
> >Shorts
> >> Lake Charles LA our pilot) depended on him a lot to work with the
> >mechanics to
> >> keep "Willie" in good shape. Very often he would be up all through the
> >night
> >> working with the mechanics to make sure all would be well for the
morning
> >> mission. He was a good soldier, a fine fellow and an asset to our crew
> >that we
> >> all appreciated. But he did have one shortcoming, he wouldn't follow
> >orders. A
> >> particular set of orders that is. He would never wear his flak jacket.
He
> >would
> >> sit on it. We would scream at him to put the damn jacket on. He would
> >smile and
> >> say "yes sir, I'll wear it". But on the next mission it was the same
> >thing.
> >> Ordering, screaming, yelling, threatening could never get Griego to
wear
> >that
> >> damn flak jacket.
> >
> >So you let a man deliberately and repeatedly disobey a direct order?
Didn't
> >the officers on your crew have any balls at all?
> >
> >
> No balls at all. At least not as much as you had when you flew all your
> missions.. Tell us about it

I don't have to fly missions in WW2 to know that deliberately and repeatedly
disobeying a direct order reflects badly on any officer who condones the
activity. That was as true in the AAC then as it is now in the USAF.

So why wasn't the man disciplined after deliberately and repeatedly defying
a direct order?

[Cub Driver]

> their parents were
>****ed off at him for not saving their sons ass.

I didn't know that Schwarzkopf was the investigator. Interesting.

"Friendly Fire" was first published in The New Yorker, as an anti-war
piece. It was my first experience with the new perception that war
should be safe. I remember reading it with mounting incredulity:
artillery rounds are fired, they explode, people get killed as a
result. Hopefully the people getting killed are on the other side, but
this is never a certainty. Starting about 1968, this was no longer
acceptable.

How many people are like me, wincing whenever someone is killed in
Iraq? I keep a sort of subconscious tally, the way I'd measure the
miles around an island when I've set out to walk around it. Six months
of losses in Iraq equal about one day in Vietnam at the height of the
American involvement, yet the Good People sigh about the "quagmire"
we're in.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[Cub Driver]

>I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
>places) sitting on their
>helmets

Not a very comfortable seat!

What I saw was helicopter pilots siitting on their flak jackets.


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (requires authentication)

see the Warbird's Forum at www.warbirdforum.com
and the Piper Cub Forum at www.pipercubforum.com

[John S. Shinal]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>No balls at all. At least not as much as you had when you flew all your
>missions.. Tell us about it

More to the point, they allowed Griego to keep *his* balls by
using his flak jacket in a clever manner.

John Comer's B-17 memoirs (engineer/top turret gunner)
recounts their navigator having the equipment shop stitch up
protective armor for his crotch that laced elaborately over his normal
flight gear.

One day they were assigned several new crewmembers, who
arrived at the flight line jittery and gray-faced with worry. The
navigator launched into an elaborate tirade about the Nazi Flak
gunners trying to shoot him in the crotch, and how he wasn't going to
let them, etc - insisting the new guys help him lace up the crotch
armor while cussing the Flak gunners and every other German he could
think of.

The crew loosened up and flew a fairly tough mission where
they performed very well.

Sometimes a little improvisation with the body armor is just
the ticket. There are plenty of first-person accounts of Huey crews in
Vietnam who had Flak jackets on their floors; Cobra pilots, too (hard
to imagine in that tight space, but...)



----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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[Ed Rasimus]

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:37:33 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:

>How many people are like me, wincing whenever someone is killed in
>Iraq? I keep a sort of subconscious tally, the way I'd measure the
>miles around an island when I've set out to walk around it. Six months
>of losses in Iraq equal about one day in Vietnam at the height of the
>American involvement, yet the Good People sigh about the "quagmire"
>we're in.

Any death is regretable, but as John Stuart Mill noted, "War is an
ugly thing...." Thinking that we can live in world at peace without
the sacrifice of warriors who are willing to do the necessary is
pathetic and disgusting.

I've got students at the college who occasionally raise the "quagmire"
comment (it is, after all a political science course). I note for them
that we've been involved in Iraq for less than a year. The active
combat took place for less than a month. The total losses as you note,
are considerably less than the nay-sayers best estimates.

Halberstam wrote "Making of A Quagmire" in '68, when we had been in
combat for five years, not ten months. At the time, we were commencing
Vietnamization, the US withdrawal without national or regional
stabilization. The result was the fall of SVN and the killing fields
of Cambodia. Now, after 35 years we're seeing a rise of capitalism in
Vietnam and collapse of the communist model.

In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[[email protected]]

"Ragnar" > wrote:

>
>I don't have to fly missions in WW2 to know that deliberately and repeatedly
>disobeying a direct order reflects badly on any officer who condones the
>activity. That was as true in the AAC then as it is now in the USAF.
>
>So why wasn't the man disciplined after deliberately and repeatedly defying
>a direct order?
>

Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
little story that a few might believe that's all.
--

-Gord.

[Grantland]

Ed Rasimus > wrote:

>On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 06:37:33 -0500, Cub Driver
> wrote:
>
>>How many people are like me, wincing whenever someone is killed in
>>Iraq? I keep a sort of subconscious tally, the way I'd measure the
>>miles around an island when I've set out to walk around it. Six months
>>of losses in Iraq equal about one day in Vietnam at the height of the
>>American involvement, yet the Good People sigh about the "quagmire"
>>we're in.
>
>Any death is regretable, but as John Stuart Mill noted, "War is an
>ugly thing...." Thinking that we can live in world at peace without
>the sacrifice of warriors who are willing to do the necessary is
>pathetic and disgusting.
>
>I've got students at the college who occasionally raise the "quagmire"
>comment (it is, after all a political science course). I note for them
>that we've been involved in Iraq for less than a year. The active
>combat took place for less than a month. The total losses as you note,
>are considerably less than the nay-sayers best estimates.
>
>Halberstam wrote "Making of A Quagmire" in '68, when we had been in
>combat for five years, not ten months. At the time, we were commencing
>Vietnamization, the US withdrawal without national or regional
>stabilization. The result was the fall of SVN and the killing fields
>of Cambodia. Now, after 35 years we're seeing a rise of capitalism in
>Vietnam and collapse of the communist model.
>
>In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
>with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
>The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
>people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
>America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
>they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.
>
Ex post facto rationalization for a stupid blunder at the instigation
of obvious traitors. Enjoy your false and absurdly expensive phoney
moral gratification, stupid slave.

Grantland

>Ed Rasimus
>Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
>"When Thunder Rolled"
>Smithsonian Institution Press
>ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:27:16 GMT, (Grantland)
wrote:

>Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
>>In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
>>with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
>>The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
>>people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
>>America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
>>they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.
>>
>Ex post facto rationalization for a stupid blunder at the instigation
>of obvious traitors. Enjoy your false and absurdly expensive phoney
>moral gratification, stupid slave.
>
>Grantland

You've demonstrated extensive vocabulary, but poor rationale. You've
contributed little to the discussion, but it's nice to see you're
participating.

I'm no one's slave. I don't have the slightest clue what your comment
relates to, but by position can only assume that you're talking about
the last paragraph. How a prediction of political reaction to the
insurgent's random terrorist attacks can be "ex post facto" escapes
me. Rationale (or rationalization) is usually going to be expressed
after events.

What blunder? Bringing the political forces of Iraq to the table and
starting the process to constitutional democracy?

What traitors? The Sunnis or Shi'ites? Or the insurgents still loyal
to Saddam?

My opinions, honestly expressed can't by definition be false. Moral
gratification can not, by definition have expense. Morality is within
the holder, and therefore while it might be wrong can seldom be
phoney.

And, as for comparative intelligence, between you and me, I'll let
others be the judge of stupidity.

If you've got an argument to make, do so. But reduce the screeds to
squealing in your own pathetic crib.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[OXMORON1]

Gord wrote:
>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
>little story that a few might believe that's all.

Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my back
at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?

Rick

[[email protected]]

(OXMORON1) wrote:

>Gord wrote:
>>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
>>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
>>little story that a few might believe that's all.
>
>Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my back
>at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?
>
>Rick

Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".

Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.

What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.
--

-Gord.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> (OXMORON1) wrote:
>
> >Gord wrote:
> >>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
> >>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
> >>little story that a few might believe that's all.
> >
> >Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my
back
> >at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?
> >
> >Rick
>
> Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
> once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".
>
> Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.
>
> What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.

Doesn't Art claiming to be telling stories create a sort of disclaimer?

[Kevin Brooks]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 03 Mar 2004 16:27:16 GMT, (Grantland)
> wrote:
>
> >Ed Rasimus > wrote:
> >
> >>In Iraq, we saw this weekend the acceptance of an interim constitution
> >>with compromise between Sunni and Shi'ite factions on a government.
> >>The insurgents continue to cause damage, but they harm their nation's
> >>people much more than the US forces and beyond the liberals in
> >>America, the ones that are suffering and recognizing them for what
> >>they are will be the people of a free and democratic Iraq.
> >>
> >Ex post facto rationalization for a stupid blunder at the instigation
> >of obvious traitors. Enjoy your false and absurdly expensive phoney
> >moral gratification, stupid slave.
> >
> >Grantland
>
> You've demonstrated extensive vocabulary, but poor rationale. You've
> contributed little to the discussion, but it's nice to see you're
> participating.
>
> I'm no one's slave. I don't have the slightest clue what your comment
> relates to, but by position can only assume that you're talking about
> the last paragraph. How a prediction of political reaction to the
> insurgent's random terrorist attacks can be "ex post facto" escapes
> me. Rationale (or rationalization) is usually going to be expressed
> after events.

Rational thought in and of itself is completely foreign to Grantland, Ed.
Extreme racism *is* however one of his more common traits. Arguing with him
is futile; plonking him will not result in your missing discourse of any
import.

Brooks

<snip>

[OXMORON1]

Gord wrote and asked:

>Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
>once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".
>
>Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.
>
>What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.

Same as yours and a bunch of the long term lurkers around here.

Oxmoron1
MFE

[Krztalizer]

>>I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
>>places) sitting on their
>>helmets
>
>Not a very comfortable seat!
>
>What I saw was helicopter pilots siitting on their flak jackets.

On the rare occasions that they were 1) provided and 2) we felt they were
required, the crewmen sat on them, no exceptions. Once we got into the doorways
and started our approach to the area where we intended to be more "danger" than
"in danger", we slipped them on the proper way. When you are wearing a plastic
helmet, a lot of the allure of a flak vest fades away...

v/r
Gordon
PS, my experiences in this regard are very limited, but I thought I could share
what I saw directly.
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Jeff Crowell]

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> Morality is within the holder, and therefore while it might be wrong
> can seldom be phoney.


Why, Ed!

Are you implying that morality is relative?

;-)


Jeff

[ArtKramr]

>ubject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: (John S. Shinal)
>Date: 3/3/04 6:57 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>No balls at all. At least not as much as you had when you flew all your
>>missions.. Tell us about it
>
> More to the point, they allowed Griego to keep *his* balls by
>using his flak jacket in a clever manner.
>
> John Comer's B-17 memoirs (engineer/top turret gunner)
>recounts their navigator having the equipment shop stitch up
>protective armor for his crotch that laced elaborately over his normal
>flight gear.
>
> One day they were assigned several new crewmembers, who
>arrived at the flight line jittery and gray-faced with worry. The
>navigator launched into an elaborate tirade about the Nazi Flak
>gunners trying to shoot him in the crotch, and how he wasn't going to
>let them, etc - insisting the new guys help him lace up the crotch
>armor while cussing the Flak gunners and every other German he could
>think of.
>
> The crew loosened up and flew a fairly tough mission where
>they performed very well.
>
> Sometimes a little improvisation with the body armor is just
>the ticket. There are plenty of first-person accounts of Huey crews in
>Vietnam who had Flak jackets on their floors; Cobra pilots, too (hard
>to imagine in that tight space, but...)
>
>
>
>----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet
>News==----
>http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000
>Newsgroups
>---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption
>=---


There is a term in the English language that describes that action. It is
called covering your ass. (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> >>I've seen several references to troops in Vietnam (and probably other
> >>places) sitting on their
> >>helmets
> >
> >Not a very comfortable seat!
> >
> >What I saw was helicopter pilots siitting on their flak jackets.
>
> On the rare occasions that they were 1) provided and 2) we felt they were
> required, the crewmen sat on them, no exceptions. Once we got into the
doorways
> and started our approach to the area where we intended to be more "danger"
than
> "in danger", we slipped them on the proper way. When you are wearing a
plastic
> helmet, a lot of the allure of a flak vest fades away...

Don't know how the rest of his crew used their flak jackets, but I know
sitting on it was not really an option for my brother when he was in the
cockpit of his Dustoff UH-1D/H in Vietnam. What he *did* do, at least
sometime during his tour, was position his trusty S&W .38 special revolver
(which he prefered to the .45, for reasons soon to be obvious) in its
holster between his legs, both to keep it from hindering his operation of
the cyclic and to give some (at least psychological) protection for his most
favorite personal area...

(The lack of stopping power in the .38 was not of great concern, since his
entire crew also carried other small arms besides their pistols; a veritable
arms bazaar apparently supplied their needs, as at one time or another
during his one-year tour he himself carried a M3 greasegun, a 12 ga. pump
shotgun, and his favorite, the old CAR-15, forerunner of today's M-4
carbine).

Brooks

>
> v/r
> Gordon
> PS, my experiences in this regard are very limited, but I thought I could
share
> what I saw directly.
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos
to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.
>

[[email protected]]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote:

>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> (OXMORON1) wrote:
>>
>> >Gord wrote:
>> >>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
>> >>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
>> >>little story that a few might believe that's all.
>> >
>> >Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my
>back
>> >at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?
>> >
>> >Rick
>>
>> Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
>> once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".
>>
>> Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.
>>
>> What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.
>
>Doesn't Art claiming to be telling stories create a sort of disclaimer?
>
I don't think so John, he's always berating everyone for having
no wartime experience and he's talking about his crewmembers
here, even using their names. I think he meant for us to believe
these stories.

As to the 'volunteer' business, he's always knocking people for
not 'volunteering like he did' then he let it slip that his call
up noticed arrived on his 18th birthday.

Brooks and George took him to task and suggested that he had
gotten the Army call up then immediately beetled off and signed
up for a flying job. Which he probably did. But he won't admit
it.

Art's milking this for all it's worth thinking that it'll gain
him hits on his web site (that's why he's 'un-filtered' Brooks)
--

-Gord.

[Ed Rasimus]

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 13:02:13 -0700, "Jeff Crowell"
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> Morality is within the holder, and therefore while it might be wrong
>> can seldom be phoney.
>
>
>Why, Ed!
>
>Are you implying that morality is relative?
>
>;-)
>
>
>Jeff
>
Certainly there are enough variations in moral judgement among any
group of individuals to suggest that is absolutely relative. I've got
a couple of moral relatives, but never met a moral absolute.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Krztalizer]

I've thought about this since Art posted it, and guys have been popping him for
not correcting Griego's behavior. Flying is full of superstitious people and
we had our share - some folks always wore the same gross/filthy/threadbare
flightdeck jerseys when they flew, others tied their boots a particular way or
refused to ever wear new equipment on a flight, etc. My inflight indescretion
was to unstrap 90% of the time - our radar station seat was positioned in a way
that even a mild impact would cleave off my legs because even at full retract,
I was too tall to get out from under the rack. Periodically, pilots would see
me digging around in back and ask or demand that I put on at least the
hurricane strap - while still "illegal", it would at least keep a large portion
of my body within the confines of a wreck, were it to happen. I would sullenly
strap in and wait for the GUF to turn back around and then :::clunk::: I'd drop
it back onto the floor. Most pilots I flew with would "order" me to strap in,
but understood I had my own reasons for not doing so; we got into one short
argument (that I won, btw) and other than that, they felt they were doing their
jobs by telling me to do it, whether I did or not. I never had a problem with
the pilots in this regard, primarily because I obeyed the other 99.99% of their
orders/suggestions - and I did a great job.

I didn't come up with that 'unstrap' idea on my own - we had a crusty old AW1
NATOPS Evaluator in my shop when I first arrived in H-2s and he wore a nasty
scar across his forehead - from not wearing his straps and impacting the radar
with a fair amount of force. As he was one of my initial instructors, I
listened to every point he wanted to make about my new ride - the H-2 had such
a horrible reputation among crews (and the Navy in general), that any extra bit
of help was something I thought could bale me out when the little red
"Extremis" light came on. I saw photos of his accident and if he had been
strapped in upon impact, that dude would be dead, no question. So, I got to
thinking about how much I liked running and swimming on my only pair of legs
and I decided I would follow every other order, but not -that- one.

When the drivers occasionally got stupid (115 knots at <20' above the sea), I
made it a point to climb up and gingerly sit on the radio panel between the
pilots - that got LCDR F____ into a tizzyfit, but I stood my ground and said
something to the effect, "If you're going to kill me doing something this
dangerous, I at least want to see it coming." After a few zingers back and
forth, he slowly brought us up out of the ocean spray and slowed down to a more
sane speed - at which point I went back and turned the radar back on: its not
like I could see anything on the scope when the nose was 45-degrees down and we
were screaming along within the wave troughs. Radar horizon was about as far
as the blade tips in that flight attitude anyway!

I think when your job is inherently dangerous, beyond the 'normal danger' of
flight, some decisions are more personal and the pilots/Ohs were human enough
to understand, if not agree. I think that is the situation for the officers
and the tailgunner on "Willie The Wolf".

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Krztalizer]

>
>(The lack of stopping power in the .38 was not of great concern,

..38 revolver = signalling device and last ditch suicide tool

> since his
>entire crew also carried other small arms besides their pistols; a veritable
>arms bazaar apparently supplied their needs,

Heh. That accurately describes exactly what it was like. Our 14-man aircrew
shop was better armed than most SWAT teams; at various times I flew with my UZI
(still have it) or a .45 (still have it). Worst mistake I made was selling my
M-1a Carbine with underfolding MP-40 buttstock, but my girlfriend thought that
*one* assault rifle was enough, and the price for .30 cal rounds was killing
me. By the standards of our shop, I was practically unarmed LOL Magic had a
frickin' cannon - .44 Mag, for what, we never knew; Danny preferred an
autoloader SPAS; etc., etc. point being that no one considered the issued .38
to be anything other than a suicide weapon.

>as at one time or another
>during his one-year tour he himself carried a M3 greasegun, a 12 ga. pump
>shotgun, and his favorite, the old CAR-15, forerunner of today's M-4
>carbine).

Yep -sounds about right.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> (OXMORON1) wrote:
> >>
> >> >Gord wrote:
> >> >>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
> >> >>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
> >> >>little story that a few might believe that's all.
> >> >
> >> >Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on
my
> >back
> >> >at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?
> >> >
> >> >Rick
> >>
> >> Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
> >> once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".
> >>
> >> Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.
> >>
> >> What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.
> >
> >Doesn't Art claiming to be telling stories create a sort of disclaimer?
> >
> I don't think so John, he's always berating everyone for having
> no wartime experience and he's talking about his crewmembers
> here, even using their names. I think he meant for us to believe
> these stories.
>
> As to the 'volunteer' business, he's always knocking people for
> not 'volunteering like he did' then he let it slip that his call
> up noticed arrived on his 18th birthday.
>
> Brooks and George took him to task and suggested that he had
> gotten the Army call up then immediately beetled off and signed
> up for a flying job. Which he probably did. But he won't admit
> it.
>
> Art's milking this for all it's worth thinking that it'll gain
> him hits on his web site (that's why he's 'un-filtered' Brooks)

Acording to Art, it is working.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: (Krztalizer)
>Date: 3/3/04 12:34 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>I've thought about this since Art posted it, and guys have been popping him
>for
>not correcting Griego's behavior. Flying is full of superstitious people and
>we had our share - some folks always wore the same gross/filthy/threadbare
>flightdeck jerseys when they flew, others tied their boots a particular way
>or
>refused to ever wear new equipment on a flight, etc. My inflight
>indescretion
>was to unstrap 90% of the time - our radar station seat was positioned in a
>way
>that even a mild impact would cleave off my legs because even at full
>retract,
>I was too tall to get out from under the rack. Periodically, pilots would
>see
>me digging around in back and ask or demand that I put on at least the
>hurricane strap - while still "illegal", it would at least keep a large
>portion
>of my body within the confines of a wreck, were it to happen. I would
>sullenly
>strap in and wait for the GUF to turn back around and then :::clunk::: I'd
>drop
>it back onto the floor. Most pilots I flew with would "order" me to strap
>in,
>but understood I had my own reasons for not doing so; we got into one short
>argument (that I won, btw) and other than that, they felt they were doing
>their
>jobs by telling me to do it, whether I did or not. I never had a problem
>with
>the pilots in this regard, primarily because I obeyed the other 99.99% of
>their
>orders/suggestions - and I did a great job.
>
>I didn't come up with that 'unstrap' idea on my own - we had a crusty old AW1
>NATOPS Evaluator in my shop when I first arrived in H-2s and he wore a nasty
>scar across his forehead - from not wearing his straps and impacting the
>radar
>with a fair amount of force. As he was one of my initial instructors, I
>listened to every point he wanted to make about my new ride - the H-2 had
>such
>a horrible reputation among crews (and the Navy in general), that any extra
>bit
>of help was something I thought could bale me out when the little red
>"Extremis" light came on. I saw photos of his accident and if he had been
>strapped in upon impact, that dude would be dead, no question. So, I got to
>thinking about how much I liked running and swimming on my only pair of legs
>and I decided I would follow every other order, but not -that- one.
>
>When the drivers occasionally got stupid (115 knots at <20' above the sea), I
>made it a point to climb up and gingerly sit on the radio panel between the
>pilots - that got LCDR F____ into a tizzyfit, but I stood my ground and said
>something to the effect, "If you're going to kill me doing something this
>dangerous, I at least want to see it coming." After a few zingers back and
>forth, he slowly brought us up out of the ocean spray and slowed down to a
>more
>sane speed - at which point I went back and turned the radar back on: its not
>like I could see anything on the scope when the nose was 45-degrees down and
>we
>were screaming along within the wave troughs. Radar horizon was about as far
>as the blade tips in that flight attitude anyway!
>
>I think when your job is inherently dangerous, beyond the 'normal danger' of
>flight, some decisions are more personal and the pilots/Ohs were human enough
>to understand, if not agree. I think that is the situation for the officers
>and the tailgunner on "Willie The Wolf".
>
>v/r
>Gordon
><====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
>Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
>reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.
>

Thank you for that touching story. I guess these habits, superstions and
personal prefferences mean a lot more to those who have flown in harms way than
to those who haven't.



Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[[email protected]]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote:

> What he *did* do, at least
>sometime during his tour, was position his trusty S&W .38 special revolver
>(which he prefered to the .45, for reasons soon to be obvious) in its
>holster between his legs, both to keep it from hindering his operation of
>the cyclic and to give some (at least psychological) protection for his most
>favorite personal area...
>

Did he mention the conundrum of whether to pull the cartridges
so as to remove the stress of having all those potential little
bombs cosied up to 'Big Jim and the twins' with the attendant
inconvenience of not having them in place if needed later ---
vice the stress caused by picturing them so near those unmangled
personal items for now so that they'll be available later if
needed? :)
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>Thank you for that touching story. I guess these habits, superstions and
>personal prefferences mean a lot more to those who have flown in harms way than
>to those who haven't.
>
>Arthur Kramer

Speaking of harm Art, do you still not see?...I'm damned sure
that nobody doubts that Gordon's story happened just as he
related it, that's because everyone has seen him retract an error
that he's made. Sometimes even before it's pointed out to him.

He has 100% credibility. You, OTH, do not, and it's ONLY your
fault. You WILL NOT admit an error. Ever. It's quite sad really.

It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
many others.
--

-Gord.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 3/3/04 1:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Thank you for that touching story. I guess these habits, superstions and
>>personal prefferences mean a lot more to those who have flown in harms way
>than
>>to those who haven't.
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Speaking of harm Art, do you still not see?...I'm damned sure
>that nobody doubts that Gordon's story happened just as he
>related it, that's because everyone has seen him retract an error
>that he's made. Sometimes even before it's pointed out to him.
>
>He has 100% credibility. You, OTH, do not, and it's ONLY your
>fault. You WILL NOT admit an error. Ever. It's quite sad really.
>
>It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
>many others.
>--
>
>-Gord.

I think you are being conned. When I was 17 yearts pld and onm Hoihg Svhool I
vopunteerd for the ArmyAir Corp. I poassed the qualifyign tets but was too
oyung to be called. I oculdbt be va;;ed intil I was 18. What I turned 18, I was
called and I reported. Those who say the fact that I was called proves that I
didntt volunteer but was drafted And it is not I who lie, it is they who lie.
Too bad you have been taken in by these obvious lies by those who have no
experience in the matter. Believe what you like. It is of no importance to me
one way or the other..


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Mike Marron]

>"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

>It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
>many others.

I realize this is stinkbait, but I'm happy to admit when I'm
wrong -- but I do gotta' be wrong first.

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>>Date: 3/3/04 1:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>
>>>Thank you for that touching story. I guess these habits, superstions and
>>>personal prefferences mean a lot more to those who have flown in harms way
>>than
>>>to those who haven't.
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>>Speaking of harm Art, do you still not see?...I'm damned sure
>>that nobody doubts that Gordon's story happened just as he
>>related it, that's because everyone has seen him retract an error
>>that he's made. Sometimes even before it's pointed out to him.
>>
>>He has 100% credibility. You, OTH, do not, and it's ONLY your
>>fault. You WILL NOT admit an error. Ever. It's quite sad really.
>>
>>It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
>>many others.
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>
>I think you are being conned. When I was 17 yearts pld and onm Hoihg Svhool I
>vopunteerd for the ArmyAir Corp. I poassed the qualifyign tets but was too
>oyung to be called. I oculdbt be va;;ed intil I was 18. What I turned 18, I was
>called and I reported. Those who say the fact that I was called proves that I
>didntt volunteer but was drafted And it is not I who lie, it is they who lie.
>Too bad you have been taken in by these obvious lies by those who have no
>experience in the matter. Believe what you like. It is of no importance to me
>one way or the other..
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Well, whatever...It wasn't anyone other than you who conned me
(if that's the case). You were asked time and time again to
explain the apparent discrepancy and you wouldn't. Why should we
believe other than that it was true??...

That was a very touching story that you told about Bob. It
thoroughly ****es me off when I think that you may well have made
it up. You need to be ashamed of your actions in letting people
doubt your word like this. Get on the stick and clean up your act
or else stop publishing supposedly true stories about real
people.

I hope his niece doesn't hear that you're somewhat wanting in the
credibility department. She won't hear it from me and you can
take that to the bank.

See how "Your reputation goes before you"?
--

-Gord.

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 3/3/04 8:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>"Ragnar" > wrote:
>
>>
>>I don't have to fly missions in WW2 to know that deliberately and repeatedly
>>disobeying a direct order reflects badly on any officer who condones the
>>activity. That was as true in the AAC then as it is now in the USAF.
>>
>>So why wasn't the man disciplined after deliberately and repeatedly defying
>>a direct order?
>>
>
>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
>little story that a few might believe that's all.
>--
>
>-Gord.

Don't read what I write.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 3/3/04 9:32 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(OXMORON1) wrote:
>
>>Gord wrote:
>>>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
>>>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
>>>little story that a few might believe that's all.
>>
>>Are you telling us that Art is telling "There I was" stories? "Flat on my
>back
>>at 10,000 feet while trying to dive bomb the..."?
>>
>>Rick
>
>Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
>once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".
>
>Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.
>
>What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.
>--
>
>-Gord.

Why are you still reading everything I write?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 3/3/04 1:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>Thank you for that touching story. I guess these habits, superstions and
>>personal prefferences mean a lot more to those who have flown in harms way
>than
>>to those who haven't.
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Speaking of harm Art, do you still not see?...I'm damned sure
>that nobody doubts that Gordon's story happened just as he
>related it, that's because everyone has seen him retract an error
>that he's made. Sometimes even before it's pointed out to him.
>
>He has 100% credibility. You, OTH, do not, and it's ONLY your
>fault. You WILL NOT admit an error. Ever. It's quite sad really.
>
>It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
>many others.
>--
>
>-Gord.


Still reading every word huh?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>Date: 3/3/04 2:10 PM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>
>>>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>>>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>>>Date: 3/3/04 1:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>>Message-id: >
>>>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>>
>>>>Thank you for that touching story. I guess these habits, superstions and
>>>>personal prefferences mean a lot more to those who have flown in harms way
>>>than
>>>>to those who haven't.
>>>>
>>>>Arthur Kramer
>>>
>>>Speaking of harm Art, do you still not see?...I'm damned sure
>>>that nobody doubts that Gordon's story happened just as he
>>>related it, that's because everyone has seen him retract an error
>>>that he's made. Sometimes even before it's pointed out to him.
>>>
>>>He has 100% credibility. You, OTH, do not, and it's ONLY your
>>>fault. You WILL NOT admit an error. Ever. It's quite sad really.
>>>
>>>It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
>>>many others.
>>>--
>>>
>>>-Gord.
>>
>>I think you are being conned. When I was 17 yearts pld and onm Hoihg Svhool
>I
>>vopunteerd for the ArmyAir Corp. I poassed the qualifyign tets but was too
>>oyung to be called. I oculdbt be va;;ed intil I was 18. What I turned 18, I
>was
>>called and I reported. Those who say the fact that I was called proves that
>I
>>didntt volunteer but was drafted And it is not I who lie, it is they who
>lie.
>>Too bad you have been taken in by these obvious lies by those who have no
>>experience in the matter. Believe what you like. It is of no importance to
>me
>>one way or the other..
>>
>>
>>Arthur Kramer
>
>Well, whatever...It wasn't anyone other than you who conned me
>(if that's the case). You were asked time and time again to
>explain the apparent discrepancy and you wouldn't. Why should we
>believe other than that it was true??...
>
>That was a very touching story that you told about Bob. It
>thoroughly ****es me off when I think that you may well have made
>it up. You need to be ashamed of your actions in letting people
>doubt your word like this. Get on the stick and clean up your act
>or else stop publishing supposedly true stories about real
>people.
>
>I hope his niece doesn't hear that you're somewhat wanting in the
>credibility department. She won't hear it from me and you can
>take that to the bank.
>
>See how "Your reputation goes before you"?
>--
>
>-Gord.


Can't let a single post of mine go unread can you?


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Kevin Brooks]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote:
>
> > What he *did* do, at least
> >sometime during his tour, was position his trusty S&W .38 special
revolver
> >(which he prefered to the .45, for reasons soon to be obvious) in its
> >holster between his legs, both to keep it from hindering his operation of
> >the cyclic and to give some (at least psychological) protection for his
most
> >favorite personal area...
> >
>
> Did he mention the conundrum of whether to pull the cartridges
> so as to remove the stress of having all those potential little
> bombs cosied up to 'Big Jim and the twins' with the attendant
> inconvenience of not having them in place if needed later ---
> vice the stress caused by picturing them so near those unmangled
> personal items for now so that they'll be available later if
> needed? :)

LOL! No, I never asked him that one. Being as they were sort of used to
having some pretty nasty stuff flung in their direction with *intent* to do
bodily harm, I doubt he'd have gone that far. I do know he never considered
it worth much--used to joke it would beat dirt as a thrown weapon if there
were no rocks lyin' around. He much preferred the longer weapons, and he was
a pretty good shot. He ditched the M-3 because he did not like its awful
accuracy (see below), then he dumped the shotgun because it had a
hair-trigger and he preferred having a round in the chamber (which may
answer your query), and he figured the usual gyrations and vibrations of his
Huey were not complimentary to that particular combination. He was happy
with the CAR-15.

The M-3 was deleted from his personal use after an event that occured during
a test flight. He was the maintenance test pilot for his outfit (571st
Dustoff), even though he was not "school trained". So he and his crew take
this Huey out for a test flight after it had been worked on, and ended up
cruising around (IIRC, don't quote me on the location) the A Shau Valley
(which had seen some pretty heavy fighting earlier in the war). The crew
chief spies this big honking lizard sunning itself on a rock, and they
decide they want to shoot this lizard (don't ask why--probably for the same
reason they used to fly low over the ocean off Danang and shoot at sharks).
Safety regs be danged, he clambers back into the passenger compartment while
his copilot keeps them over this lizard. He hangs out the door with his
trusty M-3 and proceeds to blast away a full clip in about three bursts.
Lizard just lays there and looks at them. He borrowed his crew chief's M16
and puts a single round through it, killing it deader than a doornail. They
then decided hey, what can we do with a dead lizard? They land (more safety
regs, etc., being danged) and the crew chief and he run over and grab the
lizard and load it on a stretcher. Humped it back to the aircraft and took
off for home. Called the hospital up on the radio and said they had incoming
critical wounded. They covered the lizard up on the stretcher with a poncho,
and he brings the aircraft into the hospital helipad like he is in a serious
hurry. They settle down and the orderlies grab the stretcher and sart out
towards the hospital entrance, but the rotor wash tosses the poncho
off--resulting in one quickly abandoned stretcher (very quickly, the way he
described it). After the orderlies calmed down, they decided to take the
critter on into the surgical area, so they load it back up, recover it, and
the whole scene gets repeated when the nurse jerks the poncho off in the OR.
Bedlam ensued. Irate doctor type hollering about getting that &**^%$ lizard
out of his hospital. Aircrew shrugs shoulders and says, hey, its YOUR lizard
now. Vietnamese cleaning lady steps in, grabs lizard, and takes it out the
door--dinner that night at her hooch presumably had more protein than usual.

Brooks

> --
>
> -Gord.

[Greasy Rider]

On 04 Mar 2004 00:10:53 GMT, (ArtKramr) disturbed the
phosphur particles on my screen with the following:


>>Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.
>>
>>What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>
> Why are you still reading everything I write?

It's kinda like watching a train wreck.

[Krztalizer]

<snip Death of Liz story>

Hysterical, Brooks! Sounds like rotorhead humor to me.

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Kevin Brooks]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> <snip Death of Liz story>
>
> Hysterical, Brooks! Sounds like rotorhead humor to me.

Yeah. I wish he was still around; he had plenty of those kind of stories. He
was always the cut-up type, barely made it through highschool, did not score
high enough on the screening test his first go around, which landed him in a
Nike Hercules unit at FT Lewis. Signed up for community college classes,
studies his butt off, had a BN CO who encouraged him, retook the test, and
went off to Rucker. The stories he told me (I was the doting baby brother,
about thirteen years his junior) were usually the funny ones--the lizard
story, the time he bought a little sunfish sailboat from a DEROSing USAF
type, and then transported it back to Danang by sliding it into a Huey, bow
hangin out one side and stern out of the other (he always wondered what any
NVA troopie who happened to see them fly over thought about *that* sight),
the resulting "Regatta" they held back at Danang, where the local USAF
engineering outfit wanted to attend (mainly because the Dustoff guys had
better access to the nurses) and turned a big drop tank into a half-assed
outrigger (and sank it offshore, resulting in the party being interrupted by
an actual rescue flight to hoist the waterlogged "crew" out of the ocean),
the jeep races on the beach (they once wrecked one and just walked away and
left it there). He only talked about actually seeing the bad guys on one
occasion (saw lots of their weapons fire coming his way, but not the
shooters themselves)--they were on another test flight and were at altitude
when they saw this guy with a rifle scurry into a clump of brush. They
orbited over head (way overhead), and his crew chief drops a grenade out the
door, which of course goes "bang" waaay up above this poor guy (no danger to
him). The guy bolts from cover and heads to another clump of brush. They do
it again...and again. Each time this poor guy bolts to new cover. I asked
him why he did not drop lower and just shoot the guy (typical small kid
reaction, I guess). He just laughed and said that would have brought them
into *his* effective range as well.

It was many years later, after I had already gone into the service myself,
that he told me the full story of the evening when he and his crew were shot
down. I believe it was during Lam Son 719, when the ARVN went into Laos.
They responded to a medevac call from a hot LZ, and as he was pulling out of
the LZ after making his pick-up they got rocked by a NVA 12.7mm, trashing
their transmission. So he was low and slow, and with no power--bad
combination in a helo. Ended up dumping it on his side (he was the AC, so
that would have been the right side in a Huey). For many years that was all
I had known. But a few years before he died he told me that as he was going
in, he saw two ARVN's hunkered down below the on the edge of a crater,
eating their dinner. His Huey landed right on top of them--not a darned
thing he could do about it. It still kind of bothered him those many years
later. Maybe that's why he concentrated on telling me the funny stories as I
grew up.

Brooks

>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos
to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.
>

[[email protected]]

>>
>>Well, let's put it this way, as Judge Judy says "You lie to me
>>once and I'll doubt every word you say after that".
>>
>>Both Brooks and George Z caught Art lying. No doubt about it.
>>
>>What's your take on that?. I know what mine is.
>>--
>-Gord.
>


> Why are you still reading everything I write?
>
>Arthur Kramer

Just trying to provide a little balance in this lop-sided
dialogue Art. Don't want the world to get too complacent and
trusting you know.
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>>Date: 3/3/04 8:13 AM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
>>"Ragnar" > wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I don't have to fly missions in WW2 to know that deliberately and repeatedly
>>>disobeying a direct order reflects badly on any officer who condones the
>>>activity. That was as true in the AAC then as it is now in the USAF.
>>>
>>>So why wasn't the man disciplined after deliberately and repeatedly defying
>>>a direct order?
>>>
>>
>>Haven't figured this out by now?...hell, it never happened, it's
>>a 'story' (sound familiar?). Art just thought it'd make a cute
>>little story that a few might believe that's all.
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>
> Don't read what I write.
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Is that an order??...
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote:

> cleaning lady steps in, grabs lizard, and takes it out the
>door--dinner that night at her hooch presumably had more protein than usual.
>
>Brooks
>

Good one...it's now esconed in my collection of same. :)
--

-Gord.

[Dave Holford]

ArtKramr wrote:
>

>
> Still reading every word huh?
>
> Arthur Kramer


Art,


If only you would stop responding like a petulant teenager; that alone
would improve your credibility. I enjoy your stories, and would like to
believe that they have some basis in fact; but your attitude to any
doubters has an unpleasant smell to it.

Dave

[[email protected]]

Mike Marron > wrote:

>>"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
>
>>It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
>>many others.
>
>I realize this is stinkbait, but I'm happy to admit when I'm
>wrong -- but I do gotta' be wrong first.
>
>
Of course...I would expect nothing less either. So, why didn't
you admit it when you were wrong about the Crusader then?, many
very credible posters agreed with me against you...
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

(ArtKramr) wrote:

>>Subject: Re: Stormin Norman, was Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>>From: "Gord Beaman" )
>>Date: 3/3/04 1:25 PM Pacific Standard Time
>>Message-id: >
>>
(ArtKramr) wrote:
>>
>>>Thank you for that touching story. I guess these habits, superstions and
>>>personal prefferences mean a lot more to those who have flown in harms way
>>than
>>>to those who haven't.
>>>
>>>Arthur Kramer
>>
>>Speaking of harm Art, do you still not see?...I'm damned sure
>>that nobody doubts that Gordon's story happened just as he
>>related it, that's because everyone has seen him retract an error
>>that he's made. Sometimes even before it's pointed out to him.
>>
>>He has 100% credibility. You, OTH, do not, and it's ONLY your
>>fault. You WILL NOT admit an error. Ever. It's quite sad really.
>>
>>It puts you in the same boat as Marron and Henriques and likely
>>many others.
>>--
>>
>>-Gord.
>
>
>Still reading every word huh?
>
>
>Arthur Kramer

Yep...just sharing the load of keeping you honest...
--

-Gord.

[Mike Marron]

>"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:

>Of course...I would expect nothing less either. So, why didn't
>you admit it when you were wrong about the Crusader then?, many
>very credible posters agreed with me against you...

Huh?

[Krztalizer]

>His Huey landed right on top of them--not a darned
>thing he could do about it. It still kind of bothered him those many years
>later. Maybe that's why he concentrated on telling me the funny stories as I
>grew up.

Sounds about right - I have to pick and choose what I tell my kids, because
they REMEMBER!

"Dad, isn't that a Crashhawk flying over there?"

"Uhh, yeah. Please stop calling it that."
"But, you saaaaaaid...?"

"Dammit, we didn't crash - it was just an engine fire, and everyone called them
that! Now, just forget it."

"Ok, dad." <slight pause> "Hey, look, a Seapig flying over there!"

<sigh>

Speaking of which, an SH-3H made a 500' pass over the top of my house today -
close enough to read modex number 700 plain as day! Don't see too many
Seapi... err SeaKings any more. Sure beats watching Ghettobirds orbiting
overhead...

v/r
Gordon
<====(A+C====>
USN SAR

Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos to a
reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.

[Ron]

>Speaking of which, an SH-3H made a 500' pass over the top of my house today -
>close enough to read modex number 700 plain as day! Don't see too many
>Seapi... err SeaKings any more. Sure beats watching Ghettobirds orbiting
>overhead...
>
>v/r
>Gordon
><====(A+C====>
> USN SAR

I have some video this summer from Montana of some Seakings doing bucket drops
on a forest fire outside Missoula.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

[[email protected]]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote:

> It still kind of bothered him those many years
>later. Maybe that's why he concentrated on telling me the funny stories as I
>grew up.
>
>Brooks
>

N'other'n...thanks. :)
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

Mike Marron > wrote:

>>"Gord Beaman" ) wrote:
>
>>Of course...I would expect nothing less either. So, why didn't
>>you admit it when you were wrong about the Crusader then?, many
>>very credible posters agreed with me against you...
>
>Huh?

Whadda ya mean 'huh', huh?
--

-Gord.

[Krztalizer]

>I have some video this summer from Montana of some Seakings doing bucket
>drops
>on a forest fire outside Missoula.

I had no idea they were using H-3s for that - I saw a Skycrane working the
fires, but I guess if they can, so can a Seaking.

G

[Kevin Brooks]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> >His Huey landed right on top of them--not a darned
> >thing he could do about it. It still kind of bothered him those many
years
> >later. Maybe that's why he concentrated on telling me the funny stories
as I
> >grew up.
>
> Sounds about right - I have to pick and choose what I tell my kids,
because
> they REMEMBER!
>
> "Dad, isn't that a Crashhawk flying over there?"
>
> "Uhh, yeah. Please stop calling it that."
> "But, you saaaaaaid...?"
>
> "Dammit, we didn't crash - it was just an engine fire, and everyone called
them
> that! Now, just forget it."

LOL! My brother called them "Tuna Boats". One of the guys he worked with
during his couple of years was a former TF-160 (as it was then called) MH-60
driver--he delighted in teasing him about the 'hawk.

>
> "Ok, dad." <slight pause> "Hey, look, a Seapig flying over there!"
>
> <sigh>
>
> Speaking of which, an SH-3H made a 500' pass over the top of my house
today -
> close enough to read modex number 700 plain as day! Don't see too many
> Seapi... err SeaKings any more. Sure beats watching Ghettobirds orbiting
> overhead...

I get to see the VH-3's rather frequently, what with HMX-1 at Quantico being
just up the road. Along with the whopping great 53 models they have in that
glossy paint. Oddly, I rarely see the VH-60's out in this direction.

Brooks

>
> v/r
> Gordon
> <====(A+C====>
> USN SAR
>
> Donate your memories - write a note on the back and send your old photos
to a
> reputable museum, don't take them with you when you're gone.
>

[Ron]

>I had no idea they were using H-3s for that - I saw a Skycrane working the
>fires, but I guess if they can, so can a Seaking.
>
>G

The Seakings were owned by a company, I think it was called Coulson.

Skycranes are turning out to very big assets on forest fires, and they are even
being made new again. Erickson bought the type certificates for them and is
manufacturing them. Italy recently purchased 4 of them.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)

[Kevin Brooks]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Kevin Brooks" > wrote:
>
> > It still kind of bothered him those many years
> >later. Maybe that's why he concentrated on telling me the funny stories
as I
> >grew up.
> >
> >Brooks
> >
>
> N'other'n...thanks. :)

Sure. Can't vouch for the small details, but that last one was sort of
burned into my memory.

Brooks

> --
>
> -Gord.

[Grantland]

"Kevin Brooks" > wrote:

><yawnsnip>

Use a sharp knife!

G

[Stephen Harding]

wrote:

> Art's milking this for all it's worth thinking that it'll gain
> him hits on his web site (that's why he's 'un-filtered' Brooks)

Are there prizes to be gained with hit numbers on a web site?

Maybe I need to add some "adult content" to jazz up my pages
and win...something???


SMH

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: Stephen Harding
>Date: 3/4/04 4:11 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
wrote:
>
>> Art's milking this for all it's worth thinking that it'll gain
>> him hits on his web site (that's why he's 'un-filtered' Brooks)
>
>Are there prizes to be gained with hit numbers on a web site?
>
>Maybe I need to add some "adult content" to jazz up my pages
>and win...something???
>
>
>SMH
>


There is no value in hits on a website per se. But the more that visit the site
the more information is being shared in what happened in the war. The more
flames I get from the bottom feeders the more hits I get. I have over 47,000
hits now and in time there will be 100,000 hits,. That is far more exposure
than most books ever get and that means the story of the 344th can be spread
even wider. And that as why the website exists. It is about the 344th and its
glorious battle record.It is a repository of history that should never be
lost.. The more readers the better.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Stephen Harding]

ArtKramr wrote:

> There is no value in hits on a website per se. But the more that visit the site
> the more information is being shared in what happened in the war. The more
> flames I get from the bottom feeders the more hits I get. I have over 47,000
> hits now and in time there will be 100,000 hits,. That is far more exposure
> than most books ever get and that means the story of the 344th can be spread
> even wider. And that as why the website exists. It is about the 344th and its
> glorious battle record.It is a repository of history that should never be
> lost.. The more readers the better.

I know some sites want lots of visits as they can demand
advertising dollars. Sort of like Superbowl ad time being so
expensive due to high viewership.

You no doubt will get the word out more efficiently via a
web site, but they are electronic and thus potentially easily,
and *totally* lost.

I've always felt you should translate your site content into
a book. The stories along with your photos and any other
pics you could get perms to use would be a real nice read
*and* in *hard copy*.

Your material is short and easily readable by even kids who
would otherwise get bored bogged down in a real historically
detailed type of read.

You should consider joining the ranks of the group's
literati and become a genuine author!


SMH

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: Stephen Harding
>Date: 3/4/04 7:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> There is no value in hits on a website per se. But the more that visit the
>site
>> the more information is being shared in what happened in the war. The more
>> flames I get from the bottom feeders the more hits I get. I have over
>47,000
>> hits now and in time there will be 100,000 hits,. That is far more exposure
>
>> than most books ever get and that means the story of the 344th can be
>spread
>> even wider. And that as why the website exists. It is about the 344th and
>its
>> glorious battle record.It is a repository of history that should never be
>> lost.. The more readers the better.
>
>I know some sites want lots of visits as they can demand
>advertising dollars. Sort of like Superbowl ad time being so
>expensive due to high viewership.
>
>You no doubt will get the word out more efficiently via a
>web site, but they are electronic and thus potentially easily,
>and *totally* lost.
>
>I've always felt you should translate your site content into
>a book. The stories along with your photos and any other
>pics you could get perms to use would be a real nice read
>*and* in *hard copy*.
>
>Your material is short and easily readable by even kids who
>would otherwise get bored bogged down in a real historically
>detailed type of read.
>
>You should consider joining the ranks of the group's
>literati and become a genuine author!
>
>
>SMH
>

Yeah. But I am a victim of my own laziness. What with my schedule at UNLV and
shooting skeet three times a week at Nellis, I am very busy, Then of course I
don't ever want to miss any naps, which is the greatest pleasure of all, and I
have already had a book published on color photography as well as about 200
articles over they years in Modern Photography Magazine. . But you are right.,
I'll get right on it. First thing next week (grin)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: Stephen Harding
>Date: 3/4/04 7:50 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> There is no value in hits on a website per se. But the more that visit the
>site
>> the more information is being shared in what happened in the war. The more
>> flames I get from the bottom feeders the more hits I get. I have over
>47,000
>> hits now and in time there will be 100,000 hits,. That is far more exposure
>
>> than most books ever get and that means the story of the 344th can be
>spread
>> even wider. And that as why the website exists. It is about the 344th and
>its
>> glorious battle record.It is a repository of history that should never be
>> lost.. The more readers the better.
>
>I know some sites want lots of visits as they can demand
>advertising dollars. Sort of like Superbowl ad time being so
>expensive due to high viewership.
>
>You no doubt will get the word out more efficiently via a
>web site, but they are electronic and thus potentially easily,
>and *totally* lost.
>
>I've always felt you should translate your site content into
>a book. The stories along with your photos and any other
>pics you could get perms to use would be a real nice read
>*and* in *hard copy*.
>
>Your material is short and easily readable by even kids who
>would otherwise get bored bogged down in a real historically
>detailed type of read.
>
>You should consider joining the ranks of the group's
>literati and become a genuine author!
>
>
>SMH
>
Besides, just look at this one thread. Sgt. Greigo's Flak Jacket has become
famous worldwide in just one week. Just got an E-mail from Denmark on it.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

[Stephen Harding]

ArtKramr wrote:

> Yeah. But I am a victim of my own laziness. What with my schedule at UNLV and
> shooting skeet three times a week at Nellis, I am very busy, Then of course I
> don't ever want to miss any naps, which is the greatest pleasure of all, and I
> have already had a book published on color photography as well as about 200
> articles over they years in Modern Photography Magazine. . But you are right.,
> I'll get right on it. First thing next week (grin)

Oh yeah, I can see you'll be right on it!

After the nap...after the skeet shoot...after school...after answering
some email...after cleaning the lint catcher of the dryer...


SMH

[ArtKramr]

>Subject: Re: SGT. GREIGO'S FLAK JACKET
>From: Stephen Harding
>Date: 3/4/04 10:43 AM Pacific Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>ArtKramr wrote:
>
>> Yeah. But I am a victim of my own laziness. What with my schedule at UNLV
>and
>> shooting skeet three times a week at Nellis, I am very busy, Then of
>course I
>> don't ever want to miss any naps, which is the greatest pleasure of all,
>and I
>> have already had a book published on color photography as well as about
>200
>> articles over they years in Modern Photography Magazine. . But you are
>right.,
>> I'll get right on it. First thing next week (grin)
>
>Oh yeah, I can see you'll be right on it!
>
>After the nap...after the skeet shoot...after school...after answering
>some email...after cleaning the lint catcher of the dryer...
>
>
>SMH


I am running as fast as I can Steve...(zzzzzzzzzz)


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer