IFR to Oshkosh without an IFR reservation

[Paul Tomblin]

I left it too late to get a reservation. Can I just file to FAH VOR and
then proceed VFR to Ripon and join the conga line?

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
>SELECT * FROM users WHERE clue > 0
0 rows returned

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> I left it too late to get a reservation. Can I just file to FAH VOR
> and then proceed VFR to Ripon and join the conga line?
>

No. You won't be allowed to enter the RIPON sector without an IFR
reservation.

[bdl]

On Jul 26, 4:16*am, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> > I left it too late to get a reservation. *Can I just file to FAH VOR
> > and then proceed VFR to Ripon and join the conga line?
>
> No. *You won't be allowed to enter the RIPON sector without an IFR
> reservation.

What is the RIPON sector? Per the NOTAM the IFR reservation would be
required for the "Oshkosh Area" which is defined "within 30NM of the
OSH VORTAC)". FAH is 33nm from OSH. Couldn't he file to the
Sheboygan airport (KSBM) and then stay at a suitable altitude and
cancel? After all a reservation isn't required for KSBM per the
NOTAM.

But if FAH doesn't work for him, would BJB (38nm)? What about
BAE(53nm)? Couldn't he file for the airports for those VOR's as
well? Obviously, all requirements for filing for a given airport are
required, i.e. alternate, etc. visibility, approaches, etc. But we're
assuming widespread VFR in this case.

I'm coming froming from a slightly different direction, but my
thoughts were to file to JVL and then cancel and scoot on the rest of
the way VFR. Or Heck, maybe I'll file to KUNU (34nm) and just cancel
in the air prior to landing.

I only ask because your interpretation doesn't make sense. If FAH is
in the RIPON sector then he woudln't be able to file to KSBM either or
require a reservation for the airport. And he doesn't per the NOTAM.

I suppose they could put a ground stop on all aircraft heading to any
WI airport, but I've never heard of that for GA aircraft.

Brian
N9093K

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

bdl wrote:
>
> What is the RIPON sector?
>

The RIPON sector is the airspace that was transferred from Chicago ARTCC to
Milwaukee TRACON last February. It includes OSH, SBM, and FLD and goes from
the surface to 13,000 MSL.


>
> Per the NOTAM the IFR reservation would be
> required for the "Oshkosh Area" which is defined "within 30NM of the
> OSH VORTAC)". FAH is 33nm from OSH. Couldn't he file to the
> Sheboygan airport (KSBM) and then stay at a suitable altitude and
> cancel? After all a reservation isn't required for KSBM per the
> NOTAM.
>

Probably not. The RIPON Low sector has 6000 MSL to the surface so he'd have
to be at 7000 or higher, but aircraft inbound to GRB, ATW, and MTW are
routed over FAH descending to 7000.


>
> But if FAH doesn't work for him, would BJB (38nm)? What about
> BAE(53nm)?
>

No, regardless what is filed aircraft are going to be given one ot the IFR
preferred routes and BJB and BAE ain't on 'em.


>
> Couldn't he file for the airports for those VOR's as
> well? Obviously, all requirements for filing for a given airport are
> required, i.e. alternate, etc. visibility, approaches, etc. But we're
> assuming widespread VFR in this case.
>

Of course, that would give him a clearance limit outside of the RIPON
sector.


>
> I'm coming froming from a slightly different direction, but my
> thoughts were to file to JVL and then cancel and scoot on the rest of
> the way VFR. Or Heck, maybe I'll file to KUNU (34nm) and just cancel
> in the air prior to landing.
>

KUNU would be fine, that's as far as you can go from the southwest IFR
without a reservation.


>
> I only ask because your interpretation doesn't make sense. If FAH is
> in the RIPON sector then he woudln't be able to file to KSBM either or
> require a reservation for the airport. And he doesn't per the NOTAM.
>

Trust me, this is the 25th EAA convention I've worked as a controller. Nine
at Chicago ARTCC in the area that includes OSH and sixteen at GRB TRACON.
Oshkosh bound IFR aircraft without a reservation don't get into that sector
with a promise to cancel short of OSH, they're issued a clearance limit
outside of the sector.

[bdl]

On Jul 26, 2:56*pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
wrote:
> Trust me, this is the 25th EAA convention I've worked as a controller. *Nine
> at Chicago ARTCC in the area that includes OSH and sixteen at GRB TRACON.
> Oshkosh bound IFR aircraft without a reservation don't get into that sector
> with a promise to cancel short of OSH, they're issued a clearance limit
> outside of the sector.

Great! Thanks for your further input. But it still remains that he
could file to an airport outside the 30nm range of the OSH vortac,
descend below some altitude by that clearance limit, and then cancel
IFR and go to RIPON and beyond VFR. I think thats what the original
poster wanted to do by filing to FAH.

Obviously if the field is IFR or you can't do the VFR arrival due to
weather then that won't help.

Curious, which facility are you working this year? I'm sure it would
be too busy and too varied to actually end up talking to you on
frequency, but appreciate the help you've given.

Brian

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>bdl wrote:
>> I only ask because your interpretation doesn't make sense. If FAH is
>> in the RIPON sector then he woudln't be able to file to KSBM either or
>> require a reservation for the airport. And he doesn't per the NOTAM.
>>
>
>Trust me, this is the 25th EAA convention I've worked as a controller. Nine
>at Chicago ARTCC in the area that includes OSH and sixteen at GRB TRACON.
>Oshkosh bound IFR aircraft without a reservation don't get into that sector
>with a promise to cancel short of OSH, they're issued a clearance limit
>outside of the sector.

But FAH is outside the sector, and that's the clearance limit I want.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Imagine if every Thursday your shoes exploded if you tied them the
usual way. This happens to us all the time with computers, and nobody
thinks of complaining." -- Jef Raskin, interviewed in Doctor Dobb's Journal

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> But FAH is outside the sector, and that's the clearance limit I want.
>

No, FAH is inside the sector.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

bdl wrote:
> On Jul 26, 2:56 pm, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> wrote:
>> Trust me, this is the 25th EAA convention I've worked as a
>> controller. Nine at Chicago ARTCC in the area that includes OSH and
>> sixteen at GRB TRACON. Oshkosh bound IFR aircraft without a
>> reservation don't get into that sector with a promise to cancel
>> short of OSH, they're issued a clearance limit outside of the sector.
>
> Great! Thanks for your further input. But it still remains that he
> could file to an airport outside the 30nm range of the OSH vortac,
> descend below some altitude by that clearance limit, and then cancel
> IFR and go to RIPON and beyond VFR. I think thats what the original
> poster wanted to do by filing to FAH.
>
> Obviously if the field is IFR or you can't do the VFR arrival due to
> weather then that won't help.
>

The NOTAM states:

"In previous years, air traffic services in the area surrounding Oshkosh
were provided by Chicago Center. Early in 2008, Milwaukee Approach Control
assumed responsibility for this area. A reminder: you must have a
reservation number to enter this Milwaukee Approach Control airspace under
IFR."


>
> Curious, which facility are you working this year?
>

Green Bay TRACON.


>
> I'm sure it would
> be too busy and too varied to actually end up talking to you on
> frequency, but appreciate the help you've given.
>

Actually, today was the lightest pre-convention Saturday I've ever seen.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>Paul Tomblin wrote:
>> But FAH is outside the sector, and that's the clearance limit I want.
>>
>
>No, FAH is inside the sector.

Then why doesn't the SBM airport that require a reservation? Why does the
NOTAM say you only need a reservation within 30nm of OSH, and FAH (and
SBM) is 33nm from OSH?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Many of the places I've worked had RAID 666. If a disk crashed,
everything went to Hell." - Stephan Zielinski

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> Then why doesn't the SBM airport that require a reservation? Why
> does the NOTAM say you only need a reservation within 30nm of OSH,
> and FAH (and SBM) is 33nm from OSH?
>

Don't try to look at this logically. If logic had come into play Milwaukee
approach wouldn't have the airspace.

[Mike[_22_]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
...
> Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>
>> Then why doesn't the SBM airport that require a reservation? Why
>> does the NOTAM say you only need a reservation within 30nm of OSH,
>> and FAH (and SBM) is 33nm from OSH?
>>
>
> Don't try to look at this logically. If logic had come into play
> Milwaukee approach wouldn't have the airspace.

That may be because Milwaukee approach has better radar coverage, but
another guess would be they did it to up the traffic count.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Mike wrote:
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>>
>>> Then why doesn't the SBM airport that require a reservation? Why
>>> does the NOTAM say you only need a reservation within 30nm of OSH,
>>> and FAH (and SBM) is 33nm from OSH?
>>>
>>
>> Don't try to look at this logically. If logic had come into play
>> Milwaukee approach wouldn't have the airspace.
>
> That may be because Milwaukee approach has better radar coverage, but
> another guess would be they did it to up the traffic count.
>

It was forced on MKE approach to free up space in ZAU.

[Mike[_22_]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
m...
> Mike wrote:
>> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Paul Tomblin wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Then why doesn't the SBM airport that require a reservation? Why
>>>> does the NOTAM say you only need a reservation within 30nm of OSH,
>>>> and FAH (and SBM) is 33nm from OSH?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Don't try to look at this logically. If logic had come into play
>>> Milwaukee approach wouldn't have the airspace.
>>
>> That may be because Milwaukee approach has better radar coverage, but
>> another guess would be they did it to up the traffic count.
>>
>
> It was forced on MKE approach to free up space in ZAU.

Well, "Center" means the "Center of the Universe", right?

[bdl]

On Jul 26, 9:49*am, bdl > wrote:
>
> I'm coming froming from a slightly different direction, but my
> thoughts were to file to JVL and then cancel and scoot on the rest of
> the way VFR. *Or Heck, maybe I'll file to KUNU (34nm) and just cancel
> in the air prior to landing.
>


Here's a followup. I did file to KUNU and just north of Janesville,
Madison approach basically put me on a vector for RIPON. Even let me
stay IFR till about 15 miles out.

As an aside, there seemed to be a lot of airplanes asking for flight
following despite the NOTAM restriction.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" > said:
>> I only ask because your interpretation doesn't make sense. If FAH is
>> in the RIPON sector then he woudln't be able to file to KSBM either or
>> require a reservation for the airport. And he doesn't per the NOTAM.
>>
>
>Trust me, this is the 25th EAA convention I've worked as a controller. Nine
>at Chicago ARTCC in the area that includes OSH and sixteen at GRB TRACON.
>Oshkosh bound IFR aircraft without a reservation don't get into that sector
>with a promise to cancel short of OSH, they're issued a clearance limit
>outside of the sector.

Well, you're absolutely, 100% wrong. I filed to KSBM without a
reservation, was cleared to KSBM, and was feet dry over land when I
cancelled IFR and proceeded VFR to Oshkosh, just as I said I was going to
do and just as you said was impossible.

I know the words "Sorry, I was wrong" aren't in your vocabulary, so I will
now expect some bull**** excuse about how I'm wrong and what I did and
what the controllers did was impossible.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
The software said it requires Windows 95 or better, so I installed Linux

[Steven P. McNicoll[_2_]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "Steven P. McNicoll" >
> said:
>>> I only ask because your interpretation doesn't make sense. If FAH
>>> is in the RIPON sector then he woudln't be able to file to KSBM
>>> either or require a reservation for the airport. And he doesn't
>>> per the NOTAM.
>>>
>>
>> Trust me, this is the 25th EAA convention I've worked as a
>> controller. Nine at Chicago ARTCC in the area that includes OSH and
>> sixteen at GRB TRACON. Oshkosh bound IFR aircraft without a
>> reservation don't get into that sector with a promise to cancel
>> short of OSH, they're issued a clearance limit outside of the sector.
>
> Well, you're absolutely, 100% wrong. I filed to KSBM without a
> reservation, was cleared to KSBM, and was feet dry over land when I
> cancelled IFR and proceeded VFR to Oshkosh, just as I said I was
> going to do and just as you said was impossible.
>
> I know the words "Sorry, I was wrong" aren't in your vocabulary, so I
> will now expect some bull**** excuse about how I'm wrong and what I
> did and what the controllers did was impossible.
>

What was your clearance limit? Were you a Sheboygan bound IFR aircraft or
were you an Oshkosh bound IFR aircraft without a reservation?