best US jet vs Russian jets?

[ville terminale]

i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

ville terminale wrote:
> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

Well Yes, if you were the russian pilots.
Then even stinky could shoot down all of you.
But now if Kirill or Petukhov were piloting the russian jets
and you were piloting the best US jet, they would surely
shut you down. You would be truly terminal.
--
Rostyk

[Captain!]

"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?

[Pete Schaefer]

OK. Mike Ditka -vs- a hurricane..........and the name of the hurricane is
"Hurricane Ditka".......hmmmmm...... Da Bears.

"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

[YULKA]

Hello, ville!
You wrote on 7 Mar 2004 19:13:35 -0800:

vt> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could
vt> one
vt> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
vt> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

Not over Russia, it won't!



But a US jet wouldn’t even reach Russia because of the Electromagnetic Pulse
Nuclear weapons tend to generate!



So how good a slingshot you have is totally irrelevant when you got grenades
for instance!

With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:

[B2431]

>From: D.K.

>On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 07:30:26 GMT, "Captain!" > wrote:
>
>>
>>"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
>>> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>
>>who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?
>
>Depends. If they are not given any advance warning, Bush
>wins. Bush, unlike Putin, has had some rudimentary training
>in flying planes.

Try again, Bush was fully qualified in F-102s. That's hardly "rudimentary."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Stinky Pete]

"YULKA" > wrote in message
...
> Hello, ville!
> You wrote on 7 Mar 2004 19:13:35 -0800:
>
> vt> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could
> vt> one
> vt> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> vt> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
> Not over Russia, it won't!
>
>
>
> But a US jet wouldn't even reach Russia because of the Electromagnetic
Pulse
> Nuclear weapons tend to generate!
>

Tend to generate? Which nukes generate a electromagnetic pulse and which
ones do not?
Are they color coded?

>
>
> So how good a slingshot you have is totally irrelevant when you got
grenades
> for instance!
>
> With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:
>
>

[Stinky Pete]

Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.

Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.

This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've probably
sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
Russia wouldn't sell anything either.

"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

[Keith Willshaw]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
et...
> Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
>
> Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
> Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
>
> This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
> Rafale can seem to sell for diddly.In the past 10 years, they've probably
> sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them.

Well now all 3 are relatively new aircraft and only the Rafale is
likely to be offered to Syria, Iraq, Libya or Iran

Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
negotiating with the Brazilians. I rather doubt that they would sell
to Israel at all.

As for Eurofighter the current no of orders is more than double that
for F-22 at UK 250, Italy 130, Germany 130 and Spain 90
with export orders from Austria and interest from Singapore


> Germany came real
> close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
> Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
>

This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of nations
operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.

Keith

[David Thornley]

In article >,
ville terminale > wrote:
>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
expected loss ratios is pointless.

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
| If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

[The Black Monk]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message >...
> Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
>
> Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
> Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
>
> This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
> Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've probably
> sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
> close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
> Russia wouldn't sell anything either.

Malaysia's Arms Purchases Raise Eyebrows
by BARADAN KUPPUSAMY
KUALA LUMPUR — When Russian President Vladimir Putin flew home on Aug
7 after a two-day visit to Malaysia, he left 900 million U.S. dollars
richer and confident that Russia had finally pried opened a rich and
yet untapped South-east Asian market for high-technology Russian
weapons.

Malaysia was happy too — to get a squadron of advanced Sukhoi MK30
fighter jets, paying 270 million dollars of the 900 million Sukhoi
deal in palm oil — the country's leading export.

Additionally, Russia will send a Malaysian into space and on the
Experimental Space Station by 2005 — an important psychological
booster for the government.

The Sukhoi MK30s is the latest addition to Malaysia's shopping basket
bristling with powerful and deadly weapons that money can buy — and
all acquired since 2000.

The shopping list includes F/A 18 F fighters from the United States,
battle tanks from Poland, submarines from France, MIG 29s from Russia,
long-range helicopters and Jernas missile defence system from Britain,
heat-seeking missiles from Ukraine, multiple-launch rockets from
several countries.

Also coming up are early warning airborne systems worth 4 billion
ringgit (1.05 bilion dollars).

Officials estimate at 6 billion dollars the cost of these upcoming
purchases, increasingly viewed as Malaysia's arms race vis-à-vis
neighbouring Singapore, the region's most powerful country in military
terms.

"No, there is no an arms race. Malaysia is just upgrading and
modernising its armed forces. It is a process that was delayed for a
long time," said defence analyst Abdul Razak Baginda, executive
director of the Centre for Strategic Studies.

He said that Malaysian military hardware was dangerously becoming
obsolete compared to the sophisticated purchases Singapore was
steadily acquiring.

"Now that the economy is up, the government is completing previously
planned purchases," he told IPS, adding that the purchases were
essential because of the changing regional security environment.

He said Malaysia had battled an internal communist threat and was now
looking outward and arming itself to defend its long shoreline and
far-flung islands.

But Malaysia's purchases are also coming against the backdrop of a
changing security environment. Rather than becoming simplified in the
post-Cold War era, this environment has become more complex what with
the competition for resources, markets and emergence of new threats
like terrorism and re-emergence of old threats like piracy.

The end of the Suharto era in 1998 and the internal breakdown of
Indonesian society, for instance, had been an ominous development for
Malaysia, which shares the Straits of Malacca with Indonesia.

"Although South-east Asian countries are all part of ASEAN
(Association of South-east Asian Nations), except for East Timor,
there are strong undercurrents of tension and suspicion," said a
senior editor of the Asian Defence Journal, who declined to be named.

"Such mistrust has increased with the economic slowdown and intense
competition for resources, especially undersea wealth," he added.

"Tension and mistrust among neighbours in a new and changing
environment is a key reason for the military purchases," he said. "The
regional buying spree is part of the process of modernising and
upgrading of military capabilities to face regional threats."

Among South-east Asian nations, Singapore, Malaysia and to a lesser
extent Thailand are blamed for the arms build-up in the region. Lately
Indonesia too acquired Sukhoi MK30s from Russia.

"Singapore is the better armed nation in South-east Asia and had been
consistent in acquisition even during the 1997 financial crisis," said
Razak Baginda. "The Malaysian modernisation programme was stalled but
has resumed now."

"The acquisition gives the impression that Malaysia is on an arms
buying spree but the truth is that these purchases were planned over
many years," he said. He however agreed that other nations might see
the arms purchases as "catching up" to a advanced Singapore.

"We are all friends in South-east Asia...there are no enemies here,"
said Razak Baginda who is influential with the Malaysian defence
ministry.

South-east Asian countries face new security threats besides
traditional worries like the environment, migration and health issues.
But increasingly, seeing other countries as a potential threat is a
major preoccupation.

"The stable security environment of the region in future is not
assured. Recent developments within and beyond the region will
definitely pose challenges to national security," said Mohamad Apdal,
Malaysia's deputy defence minister. "We need to get our military to
make the transition from fighting communist to conventional warfare
capability."

"This does not mean we are going to war with any country...it is
prudent to prepare an umbrella before it rains," he said.

The change is reflected in the country's defence budget that jumped
nearly threefold from 1.7 billion ringgit (44.7 4 million dollars) in
1981 to 4.8 billion ringgit (1.26 billion dollars) in 2001.

Much of the perception of Malaysia as a threat comes from Singapore,
which was part of Malaysia until the city-state left in acrimony in
1965. Since then, ties have had their ups and downs and both states
fiercely compete for the same markets and foreign investments.

Singapore has always been ahead of Malaysia with mobile firepower and
high technological weapons system, until now.

"Malaysia has narrowed the gap considerably," said Razak Baginda, who
denied that there was an arms race between the two countries. But
looking at the purchase and counter purchase, defence specialists see
just that.

For example, in 1996 Singapore bought four Swedish Sjoormen-class
submarines, the first in the region. Now Malaysia and Indonesia have
ordered their own submarines.

In 1999 Singapore bought multi-role F-16C Fighting Falcons. Malaysia,
Indonesia followed with MIG 29s, F/A 18s and now with the Sukhoi
MK30s.

In March 2000, Singapore bought six French-designed stealth frigates.
Malaysia answered with various anti-ship missiles systems.

To narrow the gap, Malaysia acquired multiple launch rockets.
Singapore bought Apache helicopters and added more when Malaysia
answered with starburst missiles and SAM surface-to-air batteries,
which are effective against low-flying Apache helicopters.

Singapore this year added additional Apaches with enhanced "fire
forget" missiles and all-weather capabilities.

These Singapore purchases have raised eyebrows within South-east Asia
and appear to have unnerved Malaysia, Derek da Cunha, a senior
researcher at the Singapore Institute of Southeast Asian Studies wrote
in a 2002 paper on regional security.

But Malaysia leaders were quick to assure Singapore that the weapons
were purely for defensive purposes.

"We are upgrading our military not because we want to aim at Singapore
or any other country," said Defence Minister Najib Tun Razak on Aug 7.
"We are protecting ourselves from internal and external threats."
(Inter Press Service)

------------------

BM

[Mark T. Evert]

"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

It might depend on the pilot......I remember Chuck Yeager and another Air
Force officer debated wether the F86 or Mig15 was a better plane. The
settled it by taking turns in each plane and dogfighting each
other......Yeager waxed him good both times.......

Now in fairness technology is quite a bit different now....but I bet a Mig29
would be a good match for it's counterpart in the West.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Captain! wrote:
> "ville terminale" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
>
> who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?
>
>
What kind of a fight?
Please describe the setting and the rules Cap'n.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

YULKA wrote:

> Hello, ville!
>
> So how good a slingshot you have is totally irrelevant when
> you got grenades, for instance!
>
> With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:
>
Shouldn't one of the "you"s above be an I?

How about Ariel Sharon vs. Arafat
Who's got the sling and who the grenade?

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

D.K. wrote:

> On Mon, 08 Mar 2004 07:30:26 GMT, "Captain!" > wrote:
>
>
>>"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
>>
>>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>
>>who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?
>
>
> Depends. If they are not given any advance warning, Bush
> wins. Bush, unlike Putin, has had some rudimentary training
> in flying planes. So, Putin dies before meeting Bush.
>
> If, however, they are given few days of warning ahead,
> Putin is a certain winner. Although he is dim-witted, he is
> still fully capable of learning - in sharp contrast to Bush,
> who is outright imbecile.
>
> DK
>
In a hand to hand fight,
Putin wins hands down.
Isn't he some kind of an oriental martial arts adept?
He's also younger, I think.

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
. ..
> YULKA wrote:
>
> > Hello, ville!
> >
> > So how good a slingshot you have is totally irrelevant when
> > you got grenades, for instance!
> >
> > With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:
> >
> Shouldn't one of the "you"s above be an I?
>
> How about Ariel Sharon vs. Arafat
> Who's got the sling and who the grenade?

I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Stinky Pete wrote:

> Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
>
> Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
> Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
>
> This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
> Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've probably
> sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
> close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
> Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
>
> "ville terminale" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
Looks like Stinky has seriously taken the bait 8-)
Get ready for a replay of 'my jet is better than our jet ...'
OR retrieve your Archives and join the party 8-)
--
Rostyk

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Keith Willshaw wrote:

> "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
> et...
>
>>Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
>>
>>Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
>>Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
>>
>>This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
>>Rafale can seem to sell for diddly.In the past 10 years, they've probably
>>sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them.
>
>
> Well now all 3 are relatively new aircraft and only the Rafale is
> likely to be offered to Syria, Iraq, Libya or Iran
>
> Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
> negotiating with the Brazilians. I rather doubt that they would sell
> to Israel at all.
>
> As for Eurofighter the current no of orders is more than double that
> for F-22 at UK 250, Italy 130, Germany 130 and Spain 90
> with export orders from Austria and interest from Singapore
>
>
>
>>Germany came real
>>close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
>>Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
>>
>
>
> This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of nations
> operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.
>
> Keith
>
>
Whee... It's just as I wrote in the follow-up to Stinky's post!! :-)

Only Keith, ...
Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
military, fighter, jets in the near future?

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

David Thornley wrote:

> In article >,
> ville terminale > wrote:
>
>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
>
> The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
> of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
> than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> expected loss ratios is pointless.
>
> --
> David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
> | If you don't, flee.
> http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

Oh, not if the whole point of the posting was a troll
and gleeful attempt to ignite a flame fest. ;)

--
It's three weeks till April fools day.

Rostyk

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

The Black Monk quoted from:
>
> Malaysia's Arms Purchases Raise Eyebrows
> by BARADAN KUPPUSAMY
> KUALA LUMPUR —
> .............................
>
> Malaysia was happy too — to get a squadron of advanced Sukhoi MK30
> fighter jets, paying 270 million dollars of the 900 million Sukhoi
> deal in palm oil — the country's leading export.
>
It looks like russia is about to start up, or increase it soap
production ;)
I wonder if it will be hard laundry soap, for its dirty laundry,
or toilet soap,
or soft soap ?

--
Rostyk

[Keith Willshaw]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
...
> Keith Willshaw wrote:
>

> Whee... It's just as I wrote in the follow-up to Stinky's post!! :-)
>
> Only Keith, ...
> Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
> military, fighter, jets in the near future?
>

1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.

Keith

[William Black]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>

> I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.

Probably.

Eventually Sharon will loose an election

Arafat is in for life

It's the difference between a democratically elected politician and a
tyrant...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Tarver Engineering]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> > I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.
>
> Probably.
>
> Eventually Sharon will loose an election

Sharon is in trouble now.

> Arafat is in for life

Christian Arabs have nowhere lese to go.

> It's the difference between a democratically elected politician and a
> tyrant...

Not exactly.

[William Black]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> ...

> > Only Keith, ...
> > Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
> > military, fighter, jets in the near future?
> >
>
> 1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.

I wonder if they'll get to pick what they want...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[Tarver Engineering]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > > Only Keith, ...
> > > Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
> > > military, fighter, jets in the near future?
> > >
> >
> > 1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.
>
> I wonder if they'll get to pick what they want...

First Iraqis will have to choose a political solution. Otherwise they will
end up standing in a line killing each other, until a political solution can
be reached.

[Stinky Pete]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
> et...
> > Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
> >
> > Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the
Balkans,
> > Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
> >
> > This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
> > Rafale can seem to sell for diddly.In the past 10 years, they've
probably
> > sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them.
>
> Well now all 3 are relatively new aircraft and only the Rafale is
> likely to be offered to Syria, Iraq, Libya or Iran
>

Well now, offering and selling are two different things, ain't they. The
Frogs are offering the Rafale to Indonesia but that's a long way to a sale.
I don't think that plane has ever gotten any export orders.

> Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
> negotiating with the Brazilians. I rather doubt that they would sell
> to Israel at all.
>

I believe the Hungarian planes are leased.

> As for Eurofighter the current no of orders is more than double that
> for F-22 at UK 250, Italy 130, Germany 130 and Spain 90
> with export orders from Austria and interest from Singapore
>

Germany just barely avoided chopping its order.
JSF is the Faberge egg of fighters. Not many can afford them. So why not
compare the JSF? JSF will sell literally thousands of aircraft. The second
batch of Euroblighters will stall in contract negotiations for most if not
all of this year. It seems the lovey-dovey partners can't agree on what
weapons systems to put in and how much they will cost. So the numbers you
mention above are a long way from reality. JSF will probably surpass those
numbers easily...and its not even in production yet.

>
> > Germany came real
> > close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
> > Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
> >
>
> This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of nations
> operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.
>

Old ones. At some point though, India will have crashed all the old ones and
then they'll have to buy new.

> Keith
>
>

[George Z. Bush]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
>
> > I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.
>
> Probably.
>
> Eventually Sharon will loose an election
>
> Arafat is in for life
>
> It's the difference between a democratically elected politician and a
> tyrant...

OTOH, the man is 75 years old and reputedly not in the best of health. Perhaps
Allah will call for his departure from this vale of tears before much more time
passes.

George Z.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Tarver Engineering wrote:

> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>YULKA wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Hello, ville!
>>>
>>>So how good a slingshot you have is totally irrelevant when
>>
>> > you got grenades, for instance!
>>
>>>With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:
>>>
>>
>>Shouldn't one of the "you"s above be an I?
>>
>>How about Ariel Sharon vs. Arafat
>>Who's got the sling and who the grenade?
>
>
> I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.
>
>
Putting Sharon and the leader of the Hamas both
under the guilotine with each holding a deadman switch
controlling the other's guilotine
would be the spectacle that I'd like to arrange!

So you don't think that Sharon will try (succeed)
killing Arafat before he's through?

[Tarver Engineering]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
...
> Tarver Engineering wrote:
>
> > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> >
> >>YULKA wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Hello, ville!
> >>>
> >>>So how good a slingshot you have is totally irrelevant when
> >>
> >> > you got grenades, for instance!
> >>
> >>>With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:
> >>>
> >>
> >>Shouldn't one of the "you"s above be an I?
> >>
> >>How about Ariel Sharon vs. Arafat
> >>Who's got the sling and who the grenade?
> >
> >
> > I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.
> >
> >
> Putting Sharon and the leader of the Hamas both
> under the guilotine with each holding a deadman switch
> controlling the other's guilotine
> would be the spectacle that I'd like to arrange!
>
> So you don't think that Sharon will try (succeed)
> killing Arafat before he's through?

I think Sharon will do nothing more, so that his legacy is preserved.

[Paul J. Adam]

In message >, Mark T. Evert
> writes
>Now in fairness technology is quite a bit different now....but I bet a Mig29
>would be a good match for it's counterpart in the West.

The Germans didn't think so: excellent close-in agility and a good
combination of IR missile and helmet-mounted sight, but really poor
combat persistence and serviceability, and poor performance outside the
close-in turning fight (bad human factors in the cockpit, poor radar,
poor countermeasures)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

[Keith Willshaw]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
. net...

>
> Germany just barely avoided chopping its order.

A miss is as good as a mile

> JSF is the Faberge egg of fighters. Not many can afford them.

Its a bargaing compared to the F-22


> So why not
> compare the JSF? JSF will sell literally thousands of aircraft.

Because the JSF is a fine STRIKE aircraft and passable fighter.
Its an F-16 replacement rather than an upgrade for the F-15

The second
> batch of Euroblighters will stall in contract negotiations for most if not
> all of this year. It seems the lovey-dovey partners can't agree on what
> weapons systems to put in and how much they will cost. So the numbers you
> mention above are a long way from reality. JSF will probably surpass those
> numbers easily...and its not even in production yet.
>

Quite so but in the RAF JSF will be replacing the Harrier not
the Tornado F3

> >
> > > Germany came real
> > > close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for
India,
> > > Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
> > >
> >
> > This is a silly thing to say when you consider the large number of
nations
> > operating Sukhoi and Mig aircraft.
> >
>
> Old ones. At some point though, India will have crashed all the old ones
and
> then they'll have to buy new.
>

Su-30's seem to be selling rather better than F-22's in the export market

Keith

[Grantland]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote:

>The Black Monk quoted from:
>>
>> Malaysia's Arms Purchases Raise Eyebrows
>> by BARADAN KUPPUSAMY
>> KUALA LUMPUR —
>> .............................
>>
>> Malaysia was happy too — to get a squadron of advanced Sukhoi MK30
>> fighter jets, paying 270 million dollars of the 900 million Sukhoi
>> deal in palm oil — the country's leading export.
>>
>It looks like russia is about to start up, or increase it soap
>production ;)
>I wonder if it will be hard laundry soap, for its dirty laundry,
>or toilet soap,
>or soft soap ?

Sounds good to me! I hear gold production will be going up as well!

Grantland

[BUFDRVR]

>who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?

I think Bush is in better shape, but Putins got him in size...I think??


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Jim Doyle]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Black" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> >
> > > I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.
> >
> > Probably.
> >
> > Eventually Sharon will loose an election
>
> Sharon is in trouble now.
>
> > Arafat is in for life
>
> Christian Arabs have nowhere lese to go.
>
> > It's the difference between a democratically elected politician and a
> > tyrant...
>
> Not exactly.
>
>

Surely that's pretty much the textbook definition of the difference between
the two...?!

[Vicente Vazquez]

"Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message >...

> Saab have sold around 40 Gripen to SA and Hungary, and are
> negotiating with the Brazilians.

But it's almost sure they won't sell the Gripen here. Competitors to
replace the aging Mirage IIIE's based in Anápolis are the Su-35, SAAB
Gripen, F-16 and the Miragge 2000-5 (let's forget the MiG-29). Seems
like Air Force's aircraft of choice is the Su-35 and the "political"
choice is the Mirage 2000-5. The Mirage is built by Dassault, who is
one of the members of the european consortium who owns 20% of EMBRAER,
which is a strong political "card in the sleeve". OTOH, magazines and
newspapers say the russians are offering full tech transfer, including
of weapons, and a very stron economical "compensation". The Gripen has
been considered too short-legged and subject to restritions by the US
(engine, etc...).

Final decision should come out in March, unless it is postponed for
the 200th time. Let's see :-)

[Tarver Engineering]

"Jim Doyle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "William Black" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > >
> > > > I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.
> > >
> > > Probably.
> > >
> > > Eventually Sharon will loose an election
> >
> > Sharon is in trouble now.
> >
> > > Arafat is in for life
> >
> > Christian Arabs have nowhere lese to go.
> >
> > > It's the difference between a democratically elected politician and a
> > > tyrant...
> >
> > Not exactly.

> Surely that's pretty much the textbook definition of the difference
between
> the two...?!

That would depend on who's textbook you read. Arafat has no problem winning
elections and Sharon is about all done. Where else do you think Christian
Arabs have to go? Israel has plenty of options other than Sharon.

[ville terminale]

"Mark T. Evert" > wrote in message >...
> "ville terminale" > wrote in message
> om...
> > i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> > US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> > least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
> It might depend on the pilot......I remember Chuck Yeager and another Air
> Force officer debated wether the F86 or Mig15 was a better plane. The
> settled it by taking turns in each plane and dogfighting each
> other......Yeager waxed him good both times.......
>
> Now in fairness technology is quite a bit different now....but I bet a Mig29
> would be a good match for it's counterpart in the West.


okay, what if there were two yeagers and one piloted the mig while other the f86?

[ville terminale]

(David Thornley) wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> ville terminale > wrote:
> >i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> >US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> >least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
> The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
> of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
> than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> expected loss ratios is pointless.


okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
fact. which would win?

[Stinky Pete]

"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
> (David Thornley) wrote in message
>...
> > In article >,
> > ville terminale > wrote:
> > >i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> > >US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> > >least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> >
> > The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
> > of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
> > than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> > one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> > expected loss ratios is pointless.
>
>
> okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
> fact. which would win?

Neither and both.

Now shut up and go away, dimwit.

[Scott Ferrin]

On 09 Mar 2004 00:27:52 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?
>
>I think Bush is in better shape, but Putins got him in size...I think??
>
>
>BUFDRVR
>
>"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
>everyone on Bear Creek"


ISTR that Putin is a Black Belt

[Mike Marron]

>Scott Ferrin > wrote:
>> (BUFDRVR) wrote:
>>>Someone wrote:

>>>who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?

>>I think Bush is in better shape, but Putins got him in size...I think??

>ISTR that Putin is a Black Belt

Ain't no match for "Cowboy" Bush's Colt .45 Six-Shooter...

I wuz borin...under a waaaaanderin' star

[Captain!]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
et...
> Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
>
> Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
> Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
>
> This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
> Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've probably
> sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
> close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
> Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
>

i can buy several new migs for the price of one stealth fighter.

[Captain!]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
...
> Captain! wrote:
> > "ville terminale" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> >>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> >>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> >>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> >
> >
> > who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?
> >
> >
> What kind of a fight?
> Please describe the setting and the rules Cap'n.
>

hand to hand. no weapons. no rules.
(imagine the pay-per-view revenue)

[David E. Powell]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Doyle" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "William Black" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > > I believe Arafat will outlast Sharon politically.
> > > >
> > > > Probably.
> > > >
> > > > Eventually Sharon will loose an election
> > >
> > > Sharon is in trouble now.
> > >
> > > > Arafat is in for life
> > >
> > > Christian Arabs have nowhere lese to go.
> > >
> > > > It's the difference between a democratically elected politician and
a
> > > > tyrant...
> > >
> > > Not exactly.
>
> > Surely that's pretty much the textbook definition of the difference
> between
> > the two...?!
>
> That would depend on who's textbook you read. Arafat has no problem
winning
> elections

Heck, neither did Saddam Hussien. What's your point? Dictators win elections
not because they are loved but because people don't want to disappear.

and Sharon is about all done. Where else do you think Christian
> Arabs have to go?

Well, plenty are Israeli citizens.

>Israel has plenty of options other than Sharon.

True, but you will notice things seem to happen to people, like the
Palestinian Prime Minister a while back, who begin to be seen as
alternatives to Arafat.

DEP

[David E. Powell]

The question is training method and quality of the pilots. Are they able to
work independently? Tied to ground controllers? Well trained on their planes
and equipment? What weapons are on the planes? Good radars and missiles or
"export versions?" And what generation are the respective planes?

If it is an out and out fight I go with F-22A. Best balance. I would want
the pilot to be the best, though. One of the deadliest North Vietnamese
aces, Col. Tomb, flew a MiG-17.

DEP

[Tuollaf43]

(ville terminale) wrote in message >...
> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

Perhaps. Check out what happened at Cope India '04. F-15C vs Su-30
Vanilla (as well as Mirage 2000, MiG-29, MiG-21). Predictably the
Yanks were murdered in WVR while they dominated BVR engagements.
Weather this is significant will emerge only as the ROE and other
details of the games become available.

The carefully leaked USAF:IAF loss rate of 4:1 was a win-win for both
the parties involved, for very different reasons.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

ville terminale wrote:
> (David Thornley) wrote in message >...
>
>>In article >,
>>ville terminale > wrote:
>>
>>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>
>>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
>>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
>>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
>>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
>>expected loss ratios is pointless.
>
>
>
> okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
> fact. which would win?

I don't know.
Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Captain! wrote:

> "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
> et...
>
>>Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
>>
>>Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the Balkans,
>>Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
>>
>>This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
>>Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've probably
>>sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
>>close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
>>Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
>>
>
>
> i can buy several new migs for the price of one stealth fighter.
>
>
Can YOU really buy either 8-) ??

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Captain! wrote:

> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Captain! wrote:
>>
>>>"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
>>>
>>>
>>>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>>
>>>
>>>who do you think would win in a fight? putin or bush?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>What kind of a fight?
>>Please describe the setting and the rules Cap'n.
>>
>
>
> hand to hand. no weapons. no rules.
> (imagine the pay-per-view revenue)
>
>
Ok. I already made my predictions
for that scenario!
See my other posting ;)

[Stinky Pete]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
. ..
> Captain! wrote:
>
> > "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
> > et...
> >
> >>Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
> >>
> >>Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the
Balkans,
> >>Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
> >>
> >>This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
> >>Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've
probably
> >>sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
> >>close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
> >>Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
> >>
> >
> >
> > i can buy several new migs for the price of one stealth fighter.
> >
> >
> Can YOU really buy either 8-) ??
>

I think he was talking about plastic models that you glue together and
paint. His mom musta took 'im to the toy store and got him all excited.

[Stinky Pete]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
. ..
> ville terminale wrote:
> > (David Thornley) wrote in message
>...
> >
> >>In article >,
> >>ville terminale > wrote:
> >>
> >>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> >>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> >>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> >>
> >>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
> >>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
> >>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> >>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> >>expected loss ratios is pointless.
> >
> >
> >
> > okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
> > fact. which would win?
>
> I don't know.
> Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)
>

His cloning machine isn't working since he ran out of viagra.

[Stinky Pete]

"Tuollaf43" > wrote in message
om...
> (ville terminale) wrote in message
>...
> > i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> > US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> > least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
> Perhaps. Check out what happened at Cope India '04. F-15C vs Su-30
> Vanilla (as well as Mirage 2000, MiG-29, MiG-21). Predictably the
> Yanks were murdered in WVR while they dominated BVR engagements.
> Weather this is significant will emerge only as the ROE and other
> details of the games become available.
>
> The carefully leaked USAF:IAF loss rate of 4:1 was a win-win for both
> the parties involved, for very different reasons.

Why should we believe anyone who doesn't know the difference between whether
and weather?

[William Black]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...

> Arafat has no problem winning
> elections

Neither did Stalin.

That's rather the point...

--
William Black
------------------
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government

[YULKA]

Hello, ville!
You wrote on 7 Mar 2004 19:13:35 -0800:

vt> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could
vt> one
vt> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
vt> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.

Actually the better things get in Russia and East Europe, the fewer Slavic
engineers and scientist will migrate to the US, and your superior technology
will dive for a steep decline!



Don’t get me wrong, Germanic people are pretty good organizers and excel at
team work, but they lack innovative spirit and most importantly creativity.



You are just good at perfect execution of orders without thinking for
yourself

With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:

[David Thornley]

In article >,
ville terminale > wrote:
(David Thornley) wrote in message >...
>> In article >,
>> ville terminale > wrote:
>> >i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>> >US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>> >least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>
>> The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
>> of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
>> than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
>> one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
>> expected loss ratios is pointless.
>
>okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
>fact. which would win?

Assuming a neutral start to the engagement, odds are that both fly
home to base.

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
| If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

[David Thornley]

In article >,
Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj > wrote:
>David Thornley wrote:
>
>> than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
>> one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
>> expected loss ratios is pointless.
>>
>Oh, not if the whole point of the posting was a troll
>and gleeful attempt to ignite a flame fest. ;)
>
Silly me.

--
David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
| If you don't, flee.
http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

[Stinky Pete]

"David Thornley" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj > wrote:
> >David Thornley wrote:
> >
> >> than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> >> one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> >> expected loss ratios is pointless.
> >>
> >Oh, not if the whole point of the posting was a troll
> >and gleeful attempt to ignite a flame fest. ;)
> >
> Silly me.
>

Sticky gets very upset if he's not the one to initiate the flame fests. He
feels it's his solemn responsibility and obligation.

> --
> David H. Thornley | If you want my opinion, ask.
> | If you don't, flee.
> http://www.thornley.net/~thornley/david/ | O-

[Stinky Pete]

"William Black" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> > Arafat has no problem winning
> > elections
>
> Neither did Stalin.
>
> That's rather the point...
>

Stalin-Putin, Putin-Stalin. The more things change, the more they stay the
same.

> --
> William Black
> ------------------
> Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
> is no basis for a system of government
>
>

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Stinky Pete wrote:
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>ville terminale wrote:
>>
(David Thornley) wrote in message
>
> >...
>
>>>>In article >,
>>>>ville terminale > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>>>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>>>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>>>
>>>>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
>>>>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
>>>>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
>>>>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
>>>>expected loss ratios is pointless.
>>>
>>>okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
>>>fact. which would win?
>>
>>I don't know.
>>Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)
>
> His cloning machine isn't working since he ran out of viagra.
>
Well get him some!
It's being advertised all over the place at prices
that even a young adolescent can afford, to impress
his current infatuation.
And there's even a competing product;)

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Stinky Pete wrote:

>
> Sticky gets very upset if he's not the one to initiate the flame fests.
> He feels it's his solemn responsibility and obligation.
>
Who me?
I don't even try.
I'm more likely to throw a bucket of sand on some of these flare-ups.
But don't feel personally offended.
You're not singled out.

[Jim Doyle]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "William Black" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> > > Arafat has no problem winning
> > > elections
> >
> > Neither did Stalin.
> >
> > That's rather the point...
> >
>
> Stalin-Putin, Putin-Stalin. The more things change, the more they stay the
> same.

Where, pray tell, are the similarities? They're both Russian.... ummm.
That's about it I guess!

Stalin reputedly killed about 60 people for every hour he was alive - I'm
hoping Putin's tally is somewhat less... Stalin had an ice axe put though
Trotsky in Mexico - what's Putin been up to?!

>
> > --
> > William Black
> > ------------------
> > Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
> > is no basis for a system of government
> >
> >
>
>

[Stinky Pete]

"Jim Doyle" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
> . net...
> >
> > "William Black" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > >
> > > > Arafat has no problem winning
> > > > elections
> > >
> > > Neither did Stalin.
> > >
> > > That's rather the point...
> > >
> >
> > Stalin-Putin, Putin-Stalin. The more things change, the more they stay
the
> > same.
>
> Where, pray tell, are the similarities? They're both Russian.... ummm.
> That's about it I guess!
>

Actually Stalin was Georgian.

> Stalin reputedly killed about 60 people for every hour he was alive - I'm
> hoping Putin's tally is somewhat less... Stalin had an ice axe put though
> Trotsky in Mexico - what's Putin been up to?!
>

It looks like Putin will run unpposed. I guess most candiadates realized the
elction is rigged so why bother. All the radio and TV stations are ordered
to play only pro-Putin Propaganda.
Putin's files will be divulged in about 50 years or so.

> >
> > > --
> > > William Black
> > > ------------------
> > > Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
> > > is no basis for a system of government
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[angel eyes]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message >...
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > ville terminale wrote:
> > > (David Thornley) wrote in message
> >...
> > >
> > >>In article >,
> > >>ville terminale > wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> > >>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> > >>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> > >>
> > >>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
> > >>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
> > >>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> > >>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> > >>expected loss ratios is pointless.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
> > > fact. which would win?
> >
> > I don't know.
> > Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)
> >
>
> His cloning machine isn't working since he ran out of viagra.

well, let's say i could whup you in a dogfight.

[Leadfoot]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
...
>
> "William Black" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> >
> > > > Only Keith, ...
> > > > Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
> > > > military, fighter, jets in the near future?
> > > >
> > >
> > > 1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.
> >
> > I wonder if they'll get to pick what they want...
>
> First Iraqis will have to choose a political solution. Otherwise they
will
> end up standing in a line killing each other, until a political solution
can
> be reached.

First you have to define the threat

Israel
Jordan
Syria
Turkey
Iran
Kuwait
Saudi Arabia

Of these Syria and Iran are probably the most serious.

Once you determine what you need to defend against the threat you have to
determine the budget.

My guess is that it will be a very long time before Iraq buys jet fighters.


>
>

[Tarver Engineering]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:lwv3c.23320$Zp.11519@fed1read07...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "William Black" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > > > Only Keith, ...
> > > > > Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
> > > > > military, fighter, jets in the near future?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.
> > >
> > > I wonder if they'll get to pick what they want...
> >
> > First Iraqis will have to choose a political solution. Otherwise they
> will
> > end up standing in a line killing each other, until a political solution
> can
> > be reached.
>
> First you have to define the threat
>
> Israel
> Jordan
> Syria
> Turkey
> Iran
> Kuwait
> Saudi Arabia
>
> Of these Syria and Iran are probably the most serious.
>
> Once you determine what you need to defend against the threat you have to
> determine the budget.
>
> My guess is that it will be a very long time before Iraq buys jet
fighters.

Perhaps some Italian completed F-35s.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

angel eyes wrote:

> "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message >...
>
>>"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
. ..
>>
>>>ville terminale wrote:
>>>
(David Thornley) wrote in message
>>
>> >...
>>
>>>>>In article >,
>>>>>ville terminale > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>>>>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>>>>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>>>>
>>>>>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
>>>>>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
>>>>>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
>>>>>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
>>>>>expected loss ratios is pointless.
>>>>
>>>>okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
>>>>fact. which would win?
>>>
>>>I don't know.
>>>Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)
>>>
>>
>>His cloning machine isn't working since he ran out of viagra.
>
> well, let's say i could whup you in a dogfight.

What breed of dog are you and which do you think fits Stinky?

[Stinky Pete]

"angel eyes" > wrote in message
om...
> "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> > > ville terminale wrote:
> > > > (David Thornley) wrote in message
> > >...
> > > >
> > > >>In article >,
> > > >>ville terminale > wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could
one
> > > >>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> > > >>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> > > >>
> > > >>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
> > > >>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
> > > >>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> > > >>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> > > >>expected loss ratios is pointless.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones
in
> > > > fact. which would win?
> > >
> > > I don't know.
> > > Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)
> > >
> >
> > His cloning machine isn't working since he ran out of viagra.
>
> well, let's say i could whup you in a dogfight.

I don't fight dogs. I just call the humane society and they will come and
throw a net over you and throw you into the back of the truck and then put
you up for adoption.

Besides, you will be dead before you get within 20 miles. Silly Russians
talk about how good they are at close in fighting. Too bad airwars are no
longer fought like that.

[Stinky Pete]

"Leadfoot" > wrote in message
news:lwv3c.23320$Zp.11519@fed1read07...
>
> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "William Black" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "Keith Willshaw" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > >
> > > > > Only Keith, ...
> > > > > Do you really think that Iraq is going to be in the market for
> > > > > military, fighter, jets in the near future?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > 1-3 years probably not beyond that definitely.
> > >
> > > I wonder if they'll get to pick what they want...
> >
> > First Iraqis will have to choose a political solution. Otherwise they
> will
> > end up standing in a line killing each other, until a political solution
> can
> > be reached.
>
> First you have to define the threat
>
Israel - a democratic Iraq presents no threat to Israel and vice versa.
Jordan - No threat. Jordan is by no means beligerant...to anybody.
Syria - possible threat, leaky borders letting all sorts of riff-raff into
Iraq but not a need for fighter jets.
Turkey - possible incursion by Turkish military "controlling" the Kurds.
Iran - No threat. Iran will be dealing with internal crisises for some
time.
Kuwait - No threat.
Saudi Arabia - covert threat due to ongoing funding of militant Islamic
orgs., not an easy mark for air combat.
>
> Of these Syria and Iran are probably the most serious.
>
> Once you determine what you need to defend against the threat you have to
> determine the budget.
>
> My guess is that it will be a very long time before Iraq buys jet
fighters.
>
>
> >
> >
>
>

[Jim Doyle]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
. net...
>
> "Jim Doyle" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
> > . net...
> > >
> > > "William Black" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "Tarver Engineering" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > >
> > > > > Arafat has no problem winning
> > > > > elections
> > > >
> > > > Neither did Stalin.
> > > >
> > > > That's rather the point...
> > > >
> > >
> > > Stalin-Putin, Putin-Stalin. The more things change, the more they stay
> the
> > > same.
> >
> > Where, pray tell, are the similarities? They're both Russian.... ummm.
> > That's about it I guess!
> >
>
> Actually Stalin was Georgian.

Much of a muchness! Anyway, was it not the case that Stalin considered
himself a Russian over being a Georgian?

> > Stalin reputedly killed about 60 people for every hour he was alive -
I'm
> > hoping Putin's tally is somewhat less... Stalin had an ice axe put
though
> > Trotsky in Mexico - what's Putin been up to?!
> >
>
> It looks like Putin will run unpposed. I guess most candiadates realized
the
> elction is rigged so why bother. All the radio and TV stations are ordered
> to play only pro-Putin Propaganda.
> Putin's files will be divulged in about 50 years or so.

I doesn't seem Putin will run unopposed, and I find it hard to believe that
a strong willed and principled candidate will just drop from the contest
(without some gentle persuasion!). This said, I saw an article in The Times
(UK) today regarding his control of the media - I had no idea that was the
case. However, Putin doesn't seem to be purging away with Stalin's gusto; I
guess he's got a lot of catching up to do.

>
> > >
> > > > --
> > > > William Black
> > > > ------------------
> > > > Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
> > > > is no basis for a system of government
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>

[Peter H. Granzeau]

On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:15:59 -0000, "Jim Doyle"
> wrote:

>> Stalin-Putin, Putin-Stalin. The more things change, the more they stay the
>> same.
>
>Where, pray tell, are the similarities? They're both Russian.... ummm.
>That's about it I guess!

While I don't know about Putin's ancestry, Stalin wasn't Russian, he
was Georgian (originally named Djugashvili or something like that).

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Peter H. Granzeau wrote:

> On Tue, 9 Mar 2004 22:15:59 -0000, "Jim Doyle"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>Stalin-Putin, Putin-Stalin. The more things change,
>>>the more they stay the same.
>>
>>Where, pray tell, are the similarities? They're both Russian.... ummm.
>>That's about it I guess!
>
>
> While I don't know about Putin's ancestry, Stalin wasn't Russian, he
> was Georgian (originally named Djugashvili or something like that).

So what does the name Granzeau make you?

[David E. Powell]

"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
> "Mark T. Evert" > wrote in message
>...
> > "ville terminale" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> > > US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> > > least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> >
> > It might depend on the pilot......I remember Chuck Yeager and another
Air
> > Force officer debated wether the F86 or Mig15 was a better plane. The
> > settled it by taking turns in each plane and dogfighting each
> > other......Yeager waxed him good both times.......
> >
> > Now in fairness technology is quite a bit different now....but I bet a
Mig29
> > would be a good match for it's counterpart in the West.
>
>
> okay, what if there were two yeagers and one piloted the mig while other
the f86?

Yeah, but the very point is there isn't another Yeager. Only one of those
around :+) Each pilot is different. Now, maybe if Chuck Yeager and Erich
Hartmann decided to have a friendly exercise, or Chuck Yeager and Adolf
Galland.....

[Tuollaf43]

"Stinky Pete" > wrote in message >...
> "Tuollaf43" > wrote in message
> om...
> > (ville terminale) wrote in message
> >...
> > > i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
> > > US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> > > least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> >
> > Perhaps. Check out what happened at Cope India '04. F-15C vs Su-30
> > Vanilla (as well as Mirage 2000, MiG-29, MiG-21). Predictably the
> > Yanks were murdered in WVR while they dominated BVR engagements.
> > Weather this is significant will emerge only as the ROE and other
> > details of the games become available.
> >
> > The carefully leaked USAF:IAF loss rate of 4:1 was a win-win for both
> > the parties involved, for very different reasons.
>
> Why should we believe anyone who doesn't know the difference between whether
> and weather?

No one aksed you to believe anything dear. You were asked to 'check
out what happened at Cope India 04'.

If you were capable of doing a simple internet search and finding and
verifying facts for yourself then you would not be in a position of
having to take on trust what some random chap on the usenet says. The
question of 'belief' would not arise at all if you had the requiste
skill.

[JStONGE123]

Please you will only cloud their pea brains with facts, sir.

>Try again, Bush was fully qualified in F-102s. That's hardly "rudimentary."
>
>Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
>
>
>
>
>
>






The Durango 95 purred away real horrorshow. A nice warm vibratey feeling all
through your guttiwuts.

[rnf2]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:03:15 -0000, "Jim Doyle"
> wrote:

>
>> It looks like Putin will run unpposed. I guess most candiadates realized
>the
>> elction is rigged so why bother. All the radio and TV stations are ordered
>> to play only pro-Putin Propaganda.
>> Putin's files will be divulged in about 50 years or so.
>
>I doesn't seem Putin will run unopposed, and I find it hard to believe that
>a strong willed and principled candidate will just drop from the contest
>(without some gentle persuasion!). This said, I saw an article in The Times
>(UK) today regarding his control of the media - I had no idea that was the
>case. However, Putin doesn't seem to be purging away with Stalin's gusto; I
>guess he's got a lot of catching up to do.
>

He''s had alot of his oppodents and their backers chased around on
trumped up charges while his backers whith the same corrupt practices
are being sheltered... a bit like bush/cheney and halliburton I
suppose...

[rnf2]

On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:59:02 GMT, "Stinky Pete"
> wrote:

>
>"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
. ..
>> ville terminale wrote:
>> > (David Thornley) wrote in message
>...
>> >
>> >>In article >,
>> >>ville terminale > wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>> >>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>> >>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>> >>
>> >>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
>> >>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
>> >>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
>> >>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
>> >>expected loss ratios is pointless.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones in
>> > fact. which would win?
>>
>> I don't know.
>> Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)
>>
>
>His cloning machine isn't working since he ran out of viagra.
>

hmm... What about the raelians? won't they clone him? :)

[Captain!]

"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
. ..
> Captain! wrote:
>
> > "Stinky Pete" > wrote in message
> > et...
> >
> >>Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
> >>
> >>Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the
Balkans,
> >>Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
> >>
> >>This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter and
> >>Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've
probably
> >>sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came real
> >>close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for India,
> >>Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
> >>
> >
> >
> > i can buy several new migs for the price of one stealth fighter.
> >
> >
> Can YOU really buy either 8-) ??
>

yes. i have several now, warming up in the batcave.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

David E. Powell wrote:
> "ville terminale" > wrote in message
> om...
>
>>"Mark T. Evert" > wrote in message
>
> >...
>
>>>"ville terminale" > wrote in message
om...
>>>
>>>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could one
>>>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
>>>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>>>
>>> It might depend on the pilot.....I remember Chuck Yeager and another
>>> Air Force officer debated wether the F86 or Mig15 was a better plane.
>>> They settled it by taking turns in each plane and dogfighting each
>>> other......Yeager waxed him good both times.......
>>>
>>> Now in fairness technology is quite a bit different now....but
>>> I bet a Mig29 would be a good match for it's counterpart
>>> in the West.
>>
>>okay, what if there were two yeagers and one piloted the mig
>> while other the f86?
>
> Yeah, but the very point is there isn't another Yeager. Only one of those
> around :+) Each pilot is different. Now, maybe if Chuck Yeager and Erich
> Hartmann decided to have a friendly exercise, or Chuck Yeager and Adolf
> Galland.....
>
Sort of like a grandmasters chess tournament with the planes playing the
role of the chess colours ;)
Say a series of 7 games. 3 games each using each plane, and the seventh
game plane assignment decided with a coin toss.
Sponsored by one of the big breweries and carried live on a sports
network. 8-)

[Stinky Pete]

"Captain!" > wrote in message
news:KTU3c.196546$Hy3.63459@edtnps89...
>
> "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > Captain! wrote:
> >
> > > "Stinky Pete" > wrote in
message
> > > et...
> > >
> > >>Well...it's been a romp for US jets pretty much always.
> > >>
> > >>Just look at the record of Russki jets in the first Gulf War, the
> Balkans,
> > >>Libya and Israel vs. Syria in the Bekaa valley.
> > >>
> > >>This should give you some idea why jets like the Gripen, Eurofighter
and
> > >>Rafale can seem to sell for diddly. In the past 10 years, they've
> probably
> > >>sold for export 20 aircraft between the three of them. Germany came
real
> > >>close to bailing out of the Eurofighter program. If it wasn't for
India,
> > >>Russia wouldn't sell anything either.
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> > > i can buy several new migs for the price of one stealth fighter.
> > >
> > >
> > Can YOU really buy either 8-) ??
> >
>
> yes. i have several now, warming up in the batcave.
>
>

....making your whole house smell of JP-4?

[Jeff Crowell]

Stinky Pete wrote:
> ...making your whole house smell of JP-4?

You say that like it's a bad thing...


Jeff

[Roger R.]

"rnf2" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 09 Mar 2004 11:59:02 GMT, "Stinky Pete"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >> ville terminale wrote:
> >> > (David Thornley) wrote in message
> >...
> >> >
> >> >>In article >,
> >> >>ville terminale > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >>>i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could
one
> >> >>>US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> >> >>>least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
> >> >>
> >> >>The quality of the pilot is much more important than the quality
> >> >>of the fighter. The nature of the engagement is also more important
> >> >>than the quality of the fighter. It may well make sense to say that
> >> >>one fighter is better than another, but quantifying it with
> >> >>expected loss ratios is pointless.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > okay, what if we have two identical pilots with same skills. clones
in
> >> > fact. which would win?
> >>
> >> I don't know.
> >> Why don't you try the experiment and tell us the result ;)
> >>
> >
> >His cloning machine isn't working since he ran out of viagra.
> >
>
> hmm... What about the raelians? won't they clone him? :)

The "clone" idea is the exact problem. The US has maintained air superiority
since WW II where it needed it because the US has invested more in the
training of their pilots. The training has been as close to the anticipated
reality as possible, has rarely been cut back to save money, and the reality
has been carefully researched by our intelligence agencies. We have also
spent heavily on the most effective command and control systems in the
world.

One side effect of all that effective expenditure has been that the
aircraft, electronics, and weapons systems have been developed to a really
high extent, but the key is that those systems can be more effectively
applied in a greater number of environments than the equivalent hardware
systems owned by other nations.

One real problem with those sources of air effectiveness is that they
degrade rapidly when the training is reduced. That makes the training, etc.
a great deal more of a critical factor than the nature of the hardware.

[Stinky Pete]

"Jeff Crowell" > wrote in message
...
> Stinky Pete wrote:
> > ...making your whole house smell of JP-4?
>
> You say that like it's a bad thing...
>
>
> Jeff
>
>

Since the captain's house smells like old fish bait, JP-4 would be an
improvement.

[Peter H. Granzeau]

On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:30:44 -0500, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
> wrote:

>> While I don't know about Putin's ancestry, Stalin wasn't Russian, he
>> was Georgian (originally named Djugashvili or something like that).
>
>So what does the name Granzeau make you?

By ancestry, 1/4 Danish, 1/4 English, 1/2 German. Johann Christian
Friedrich Granzow (my great-grandfather) was born in
Mecklenberg-Strelitz in 1820.

My father changed the spelling of the name, for reasons unknown,
before I was born.

[The Black Monk]

(Tuollaf43) wrote in message >...
>>
> No one aksed
-----

Clearly "stinky pete" was not respecting diversity and
multiculturalism in his horrible attack on the grammar of a person of
color.

BM

> you to believe anything dear. You were asked to 'check
> out what happened at Cope India 04'.
>
> If you were capable of doing a simple internet search and finding and
> verifying facts for yourself then you would not be in a position of
> having to take on trust what some random chap on the usenet says. The
> question of 'belief' would not arise at all if you had the requiste
> skill.

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Jeff Crowell wrote:

> Stinky Pete wrote:
>
>>...making your whole house smell of JP-4?
>
> You say that like it's a bad thing...
>
Stinky?
Are JP-4 fumes effective as a fumigant to
get rid of roaches an other house vermin?

[Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj]

Peter H. Granzeau wrote:

> On Wed, 10 Mar 2004 15:30:44 -0500, "Rostyslaw J. Lewyckyj"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>>While I don't know about Putin's ancestry, Stalin wasn't Russian, he
>>>was Georgian (originally named Djugashvili or something like that).
>>
>>So what does the name Granzeau make you?
>
>
> By ancestry, 1/4 Danish, 1/4 English, 1/2 German. Johann Christian
> Friedrich Granzow (my great-grandfather) was born in
> Mecklenberg-Strelitz in 1820.
>
> My father changed the spelling of the name, for reasons unknown,
> before I was born.

I did not ask for your ancestry, pedigree!
I asked what does it make YOU!

[Vello]

"YULKA" > wrote in message >...
> Hello, ville!
> You wrote on 7 Mar 2004 19:13:35 -0800:
>
> vt> i know US jet is much better. how many of best russian jets could
> vt> one
> vt> US jet take on at once? i'll bet the best US jet can shoot down at
> vt> least 5 of russia's best jets before going down.
>
> Actually the better things get in Russia and East Europe, the fewer Slavic
> engineers and scientist will migrate to the US, and your superior technology
> will dive for a steep decline!
>
>
>
> Don?t get me wrong, Germanic people are pretty good organizers and excel at
> team work, but they lack innovative spirit and most importantly creativity.
>
>
>
> You are just good at perfect execution of orders without thinking for
> yourself
>
> With best regards, YULKA. E-mail:

I'm working for one popular journal about technics, so collecting
materials for different stories I discover that germans are authors
of: jet plane, rocket missile up to Moon landing, basic design of
modern submarine, basic design of nuclear subs propulsion system with
just Walther catalytc converter instead of nuclear owen. About modern
times: US and other nations spent lot of money developing so called
compensating suite for fighter pilotes. US system is really high-tech:
hundreds of small cavities on suits legs part will be pressurized by
air to prevent blood running too far from brains on hard U-turns.
Suite is managed by computer. Nice? Some germans just find out, thai
if you put elastic tubes with some liquid of weight of blood from up
to down in suite, then on U-turn that water also wants to go downwards
those pressurizing leg part of suite much more accurate and 1000 times
cheaper. So I think there is no need to underestimate them.

Best

Vello