New starter in a 172 2005

[passenger 1957]

I'm being told that I'll need a new starter and ring gear in my plane
(used intermittantly by a school). The last one didn't seem to last
very long... It was flooded by an instructor and cranked it "a bit
longer than usual" to get it started. The mech. startes this as the
reason they failed.

Just how long should a starter and ring gear last under normal
conditions? The last one cost about $380.00 (I'll have to check and
see the make/model on the paperwork).

Did my mechanic cheap out just to save a few dollars? Should I be sure
a top-of-the-line model is replaced or push for a warranty replacement?

[Mike[_22_]]

"passenger 1957" > wrote in message
...
> I'm being told that I'll need a new starter and ring gear in my plane
> (used intermittantly by a school). The last one didn't seem to last
> very long... It was flooded by an instructor and cranked it "a bit
> longer than usual" to get it started. The mech. startes this as the
> reason they failed.
>
> Just how long should a starter and ring gear last under normal
> conditions? The last one cost about $380.00 (I'll have to check and
> see the make/model on the paperwork).
>
> Did my mechanic cheap out just to save a few dollars? Should I be sure
> a top-of-the-line model is replaced or push for a warranty replacement?

Starters are high failure items on a number of planes and in my experience
there seems to be no rhyme or reason with how long they last. Sometimes
they go out every 500 hrs or so and sometimes they seem to last forever.
Just be glad your starter is up front and is easy to replace.

Some fuel injected planes are tricky to start and if someone doesn't know
what they are doing they can easily burn up a starter.

[Peter Clark]

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:57:23 -0700 (PDT), passenger 1957
> wrote:

>I'm being told that I'll need a new starter and ring gear in my plane
>(used intermittantly by a school). The last one didn't seem to last
>very long... It was flooded by an instructor and cranked it "a bit
>longer than usual" to get it started. The mech. startes this as the
>reason they failed.
>
>Just how long should a starter and ring gear last under normal
>conditions? The last one cost about $380.00 (I'll have to check and
>see the make/model on the paperwork).
>
>Did my mechanic cheap out just to save a few dollars? Should I be sure
>a top-of-the-line model is replaced or push for a warranty replacement?

I've had an obscene number of starters in skyhawks go until the new
lightweight starters were changed in by Cessna. I can't think of any
ring gears.

[Ross]

Peter Clark wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:57:23 -0700 (PDT), passenger 1957
> > wrote:
>
>> I'm being told that I'll need a new starter and ring gear in my plane
>> (used intermittantly by a school). The last one didn't seem to last
>> very long... It was flooded by an instructor and cranked it "a bit
>> longer than usual" to get it started. The mech. startes this as the
>> reason they failed.
>>
>> Just how long should a starter and ring gear last under normal
>> conditions? The last one cost about $380.00 (I'll have to check and
>> see the make/model on the paperwork).
>>
>> Did my mechanic cheap out just to save a few dollars? Should I be sure
>> a top-of-the-line model is replaced or push for a warranty replacement?
>
> I've had an obscene number of starters in skyhawks go until the new
> lightweight starters were changed in by Cessna. I can't think of any
> ring gears.

Not an expert here, but be sure the starter gears are the right ones for
the starter ring gear. Not the right ratio and can wear the teeth. If
that is your problem, otherwise I wouldn;t think the ring would have to
be replaced.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[passenger 1957]

On Aug 14, 11:22*am, Ross > wrote:
> Peter Clark wrote:
> > On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:57:23 -0700 (PDT), passenger 1957
> > > wrote:
>
> >> I'm being told that I'll need a new starter and ring gear in my plane
> >> (used intermittantly by a school). The last one didn't seem to last
> >> very long... It was flooded by an instructor and cranked it "a bit
> >> longer than usual" to get it started. The mech. startes this as the
> >> reason they failed.
>
> >> Just how long should a starter and ring gear last under normal
> >> conditions? The last one cost about $380.00 (I'll have to check and
> >> see the make/model on the paperwork).
>
> >> Did my mechanic cheap out just to save a few dollars? Should I be sure
> >> a top-of-the-line model is replaced or push for a warranty replacement?
>
> > I've had an obscene number of starters in skyhawks go until the new
> > lightweight starters were changed in by Cessna. *I can't think of any
> > ring gears.
>
> Not an expert here, but be sure the starter gears are the right ones for
> the starter ring gear. Not the right ratio and can wear the teeth. If
> that is your problem, otherwise I wouldn;t think the ring would have to
> be replaced.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> KSWI- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

There's a tooth missing.

[[email protected]]

On Aug 14, 1:00 pm, passenger 1957 >
wrote:

> There's a tooth missing.

The ring gear should be replaced at overhaul. If there's a
tooth missing, it's likely pretty old, or the starter had engagement
issues. It should be engaging the ring gear promptly, before the
starter really winds up, and if the starter drive is sticky the teeth
will get worn quickly. On a four-banger there are two places on the
gear that get it the most, both where the prop tends to stop on
shutdown.
The drive bendix on a Lyc needs lubing with silicone spray
lube, and it's really hard to get at. Any other lubricant will attract
dust and create a sticky sludge that sooner or later causes engagement
problems, tearing up the ring gear, and then seizes the drive splines
and the starter won't engage at all.
Many starters (and batteries) get replaced unnecessarily
because the solenoids are old and their contacts are corroded or
burned. Any resistance across those contacts causes a large voltage
drop because of the high current flow, and it can be verified using a
voltmeter across the studs while cranking. There shouldn't be more
than a volt or so of drop. Both the master and starter solenoids
should get replaced if this is noted.
Some pilots just keep cranking if the engine is flooded or
cold or has a bad mag or whatever else is making it reluctant to
start. Good way to bust a starter. Lycoming recommends something like
a ten-minute cooldown after three ten-second cranks. Starters have no
cooling system and use a tremendous amount of current that generates a
lot of heat.The commutator segments are set in plastic which overheats
and throws the segments, and the field and armature windings get hot
and burn off their insulating varnish and short together. Things
really get hot then.
Killing a battery with the starter will often ruin it
permanently; I don't know how many batteries we've replaced after
someone ground them right down, sulfating them so bad they wouldn't
take a charge anymore. Got to think, Pilot: why won't it start? What
should I do besides just cranking and hoping for a miracle?

Dan

[Mike[_22_]]

> wrote in message
...
> On Aug 14, 1:00 pm, passenger 1957 >
> wrote:
>
>> There's a tooth missing.
>
> The ring gear should be replaced at overhaul. If there's a
> tooth missing, it's likely pretty old, or the starter had engagement
> issues. It should be engaging the ring gear promptly, before the
> starter really winds up, and if the starter drive is sticky the teeth
> will get worn quickly. On a four-banger there are two places on the
> gear that get it the most, both where the prop tends to stop on
> shutdown.
> The drive bendix on a Lyc needs lubing with silicone spray
> lube, and it's really hard to get at. Any other lubricant will attract
> dust and create a sticky sludge that sooner or later causes engagement
> problems, tearing up the ring gear, and then seizes the drive splines
> and the starter won't engage at all.
> Many starters (and batteries) get replaced unnecessarily
> because the solenoids are old and their contacts are corroded or
> burned. Any resistance across those contacts causes a large voltage
> drop because of the high current flow, and it can be verified using a
> voltmeter across the studs while cranking. There shouldn't be more
> than a volt or so of drop. Both the master and starter solenoids
> should get replaced if this is noted.
> Some pilots just keep cranking if the engine is flooded or
> cold or has a bad mag or whatever else is making it reluctant to
> start. Good way to bust a starter. Lycoming recommends something like
> a ten-minute cooldown after three ten-second cranks. Starters have no
> cooling system and use a tremendous amount of current that generates a
> lot of heat.The commutator segments are set in plastic which overheats
> and throws the segments, and the field and armature windings get hot
> and burn off their insulating varnish and short together. Things
> really get hot then.
> Killing a battery with the starter will often ruin it
> permanently; I don't know how many batteries we've replaced after
> someone ground them right down, sulfating them so bad they wouldn't
> take a charge anymore. Got to think, Pilot: why won't it start? What
> should I do besides just cranking and hoping for a miracle?
>
> Dan

Well said. The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and
over again and expecting different results.

[passenger 1957]

I'd still like to know if I should push for a better starter or are
they all about the same? (I don't mind spending extra money if it will
help push off a similar problem) Where might I send the fried one to
see if it's either a 'bad unit' or to see if there's some other
problem to look into?

[Peter Clark]

On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:26:36 -0700 (PDT), passenger 1957
> wrote:

>I'd still like to know if I should push for a better starter or are
>they all about the same? (I don't mind spending extra money if it will
>help push off a similar problem) Where might I send the fried one to
>see if it's either a 'bad unit' or to see if there's some other
>problem to look into?

You want the lightweight, magnetic (non-direct drive, I forget the
make offhand) actuated bendix starter. Spin faster, better starts,
all in all a better unit.

[Mike[_22_]]

"passenger 1957" > wrote in message
...
> I'd still like to know if I should push for a better starter or are
> they all about the same? (I don't mind spending extra money if it will
> help push off a similar problem) Where might I send the fried one to
> see if it's either a 'bad unit' or to see if there's some other
> problem to look into?

It all just depends on why your starter failed in the first place. If it
failed because someone is overcranking the starter, I don't know that a
better starter is going to fix your problem. I'm fond of Sky-Tec starters,
but I've had problems with those also. However my problem was related to a
starter adapter which your plane doesn't have. You may already have a
Sky-Tec as I've heard they come as standard equipment on some newer planes,
but I'm not sure if this is true or not.

[[email protected]]

On Aug 15, 8:16 pm, "Mike" > wrote:
> "passenger 1957" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > I'd still like to know if I should push for a better starter or are
> > they all about the same? (I don't mind spending extra money if it will
> > help push off a similar problem) Where might I send the fried one to
> > see if it's either a 'bad unit' or to see if there's some other
> > problem to look into?
>
> It all just depends on why your starter failed in the first place. If it
> failed because someone is overcranking the starter, I don't know that a
> better starter is going to fix your problem. I'm fond of Sky-Tec starters,
> but I've had problems with those also. However my problem was related to a
> starter adapter which your plane doesn't have. You may already have a
> Sky-Tec as I've heard they come as standard equipment on some newer planes,
> but I'm not sure if this is true or not.

We have four Magnaflite starters used in flight training
(which means frequent and sometimes abusive starts), and had several
more before these four, and *none* of them have ever given trouble.
They all go to the engine's TBO. The Lamar on an O-470 we had in an
older 182, on the other hand, was a pain, lacking cranking torque, and
the old Prestolites can also make life miserable at times, with brush
and bearing issues.
Lycoming sends their engines out with Magnaflites. If they like
them, then I do, too.

Dan