Pakistan May Have al-Qaida's No. 2 Man Surrounded

[Dav1936531]

Place your bets. Will Ayman al-Zawahri be captured alive? Or will he die the
death of a glorious jihadi martyr? I'll bet he dies....... the Pakistanis
hunting him probably have strict orders to kill him so he can't talk about
Pakistan's relations with both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
Dave

WANA, Pakistan (March 18) - Pakistani troops believe they have surrounded
al-Qaida No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahri in an operation near the Afghan border, three
senior Pakistani officials said Thursday.

The officials told The Associated Press that intelligence indicated the
Egyptian-born al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden's top deputy, has been cornered in an
operation. One intelligence official said captured fighters said al-Zawahri had
been wounded.

The operation began Tuesday in South Waziristan with hundreds of troops and
paramilitary rangers, who fired artillery and used helicopter gunships to
attack dug-in al-Qaida fighters. Dozens of fighters were killed and 18 were
captured, the intelligence official said.

''We have been receiving intelligence and information from our agents who are
working in the tribal areas that al-Zawahri could be among the people hiding
there,'' a military official said. ''All of our efforts are to capture him.''

An intelligence official and senior politician in President Gen. Pervez
Musharraf's government both confirmed the account. All spoke on condition of
anonymity.

The United States has offered a $25 million reward for information leading to
al-Zawahri's capture.

Pakistani officials said they do not have any intelligence indicating that bin
Laden is with al-Zawahri. In the past, intelligence officials have speculated
that the two are traveling together, and bin Laden and al-Zawahri appeared
together in video tapes released shortly after the Sept. 11 attacks.

In an interview with CNN, Musharraf said he had spoken with the commander of
Pakistani troops in the region. He said the commander reported ''fierce
resistance'' from a group of fighters entrenched in fort-like buildings and
that there were indications that a senior figure was surrounded.

''He's reasonably sure there's a high-value target there,'' Musharraf said.

Musharraf said the area was being ''pounded'' by artillery.

Speaking on the condition of anonymity, a U.S. counterterrorism official said:
''It would appear that the Pakistanis have surrounded a very senior al-Qaida
figure, but at this point we are not certain who it is.''

The Pakistani military has been pursuing 100 tribal leaders that authorities
want to roll into their efforts to hunt al-Qaida in the Waziristan frontier. So
far, about two-thirds have said they would provide information and turn over
any Islamic militants in their territories, American defense officials said on
condition of anonymity.

The others are facing destruction of their homes by the hands of Pakistani
military, officials said.

The Pakistanis also are targeting Arabs and other foreigners who settled in the
tribal regions shortly after the Afghan-Soviet war in the 1980s, the officials
said. While some veterans of the war formed the nucleus of al-Qaida, others put
down roots in Pakistan.

It is believed that some of these veterans are providing a support network for
bin Laden and his followers in the region, officials said.

U.S. officials say they are watching to see if the Pakistani actions send
militant fighters moving back to Afghanistan, where U.S. troops operate freely.

Hundreds of Pakistani troops have moved into three South Waziristan towns -
Azam Warsak, Shin Warsak and Kaloosha - against entrenched positions.

''They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we pounded them with
artillery,'' Musharraf told CNN.

Early morning calls from mosques warned residents in Azam Warsak, Shin Warsak
and Kaloosha to leave the area, apparently to give the troops more room to
operate.

''They asked locals, women and children, to move out, which many did. And then
they shot upon the area, with ... helicopters also,'' Musharraf told CNN.

At least 41 people - including 15 soldiers and 26 suspected militants - were
killed Tuesday in fighting in the area, and army spokesman Gen. Shaukat Sultan
said there were an unknown number of casualties in continued action Thursday.

The military said Thursday that most of those killed were foreigners, but it
did not give their nationalities and acknowledged that only two bodies had been
recovered.

The two dead were believed to be a Chechen and someone of Middle Eastern
origin, a military official said on condition of anonymity.

The news came the same day as Secretary of State Colin Powell announced in
Islamabad that Washington was bestowing the status of ''major non-NATO ally''
on Pakistan and praised it for its help in the war on terror.

Musharraf, a key ally in the U.S.-led war on terrorism, promised Monday to rid
the tribal areas of foreign terrorists.

Powell, who left the country hours before the announcement, also said he
believed there was evidence that al-Qaida leader bin Laden is still alive and
hiding in the rugged border area.

''No one has seen him, so how can one be sure?'' Powell told Geo TV. ''But he
has certainly given evidence that he is alive and active. But we can't be sure.

''And if he is alive and active, and the evidence suggests that he is, and if
he is in the area of the Pakistan-Afghan border, that's a very difficult area
to find someone who doesn't want to be found.''

A spokesman for the U.S. military in Afghanistan told AP the force hoped
Pakistani soldiers had indeed cornered al-Zawahri, but he had no new
information on the whereabouts of either of the al-Qaida leaders.

''All the senior leaders of al-Qaida will be brought to justice,'' Lt. Col.
Bryan Hilferty said.

Hilferty said a U.S. operation begun March 7 on the Afghan side of the border
was continuing, but he gave no details and said he had no information of any
signs of militants fleeing from Pakistan.

About a dozen helicopters buzzed over Wana, the main town in South Waziristan,
early Thursday, flying toward the operation zone about six miles to the west.

A convoy of army trucks carrying soldiers also passed Wana hours before the
operation started. Later, mortar explosions were heard in the town.

Interior Ministry spokesman Abdur Rauf Chaudhry said extra troops were
dispatched in anticipation of the new offensive.

He said ''a few'' paramilitary troops are missing from Tuesday's operation in
Kaloosha, with rumors in the region that they may have been kidnapped by the
suspected militants.

The raid has sparked outrage in the tribal region, which fiercely covets its
autonomy and has resisted outside intervention for centuries.

In another part of the tribal region, North Waziristan, attackers launched a
rocket and fired gunshots at a Pakistan army post before dawn Thursday, Sultan
said. Two soldiers died and several were injured in the attack, an intelligence
official told the AP on condition of anonymity.

The official also said assailants threw a hand grenade at an army truck heading
to Miran Shah, North Waziristan's main town, and that several soldiers were
injured. But Sultan denied the incident occurred.


03-18-04 15:12 EST

[Guy Alcala]

Dav1936531 wrote:

> Place your bets. Will Ayman al-Zawahri be captured alive? Or will he die the
> death of a glorious jihadi martyr? I'll bet he dies.......

Oh, come now. Can't we even bet on whether the whole story is a put-up job for
U.S. consumption, or whether they in fact have someone important cornered, or
whether its al-Zawahri, or whether they'll capture/kill him or he/they escape,
etc. Let's not limit ourselves.

Guy

[Dav1936531]

>From: Guy Alcala
>Date: 3/18/04 4:26 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Oh, come now. Can't we even bet on whether the whole story is a put-up job
for U.S. consumption, or whether they in fact have someone important cornered,
or whether its al-Zawahri, or whether they'll capture/kill him or he/they
escape, etc. Let's not limit ourselves.
>Guy

Gen. Mushariff recently pointed to Al-Qaeda as the group behind the recent two
attempts on his life. I think he is probably serious about finding those
responsible. And doing it during the time that Colin Powell is in country makes
him look good...and deals a nice political victory to the Bush administration
to boot.

The fact is that they have probably had a pretty good idea of where he and
Osama have been hiding out for a long time. Money talks in these places, and
they probably have been able to buy pretty well connected (to Al-Qaeda)
informants.
Dave

[William Wright]

"Dav1936531" > wrote in message
...
> >From: Guy Alcala
> >Date: 3/18/04 4:26 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Oh, come now. Can't we even bet on whether the whole story is a put-up
job
> for U.S. consumption, or whether they in fact have someone important
cornered,
> or whether its al-Zawahri, or whether they'll capture/kill him or he/they
> escape, etc. Let's not limit ourselves.
> >Guy
>
> Gen. Mushariff recently pointed to Al-Qaeda as the group behind the recent
two
> attempts on his life. I think he is probably serious about finding those
> responsible. And doing it during the time that Colin Powell is in country
makes
> him look good...and deals a nice political victory to the Bush
administration
> to boot.
>
> The fact is that they have probably had a pretty good idea of where he and
> Osama have been hiding out for a long time. Money talks in these places,
and
> they probably have been able to buy pretty well connected (to Al-Qaeda)
> informants.
> Dave

The story on all the cable news stations is that the Pakistani forces got
hit pretty hard by some type of artillery and had more than a dozen vehicles
including armor destroyed. This heavy attack has lead to the conclusion that
someone important is there and now surrounded.

[D. Strang]

"Dav1936531" > wrote
>
> Place your bets. Will Ayman al-Zawahri be captured alive? Or will he die the
> death of a glorious jihadi martyr?

He will die of old age.

A common game by Arabs, is to fight in one corner, while the high value
targets stroll down the road.

They better have someone covering the area 5 miles away from the fight.

[John Keeney]

"Dav1936531" > wrote in message
...
> Place your bets. Will Ayman al-Zawahri be captured alive? Or will he die
the
> death of a glorious jihadi martyr? I'll bet he dies....... the Pakistanis
> hunting him probably have strict orders to kill him so he can't talk about
> Pakistan's relations with both the Taliban and Al-Qaeda.
> Dave

Escape/never-there/fate-unknown

[Dav1936531]

>From: "John Keeney"
>
>
>Escape/never-there/fate-unknown

Hmmm.....you may be correct. But....according to the information they're
getting from some prisoners already captured in the fight (which, of course,
could be all lies), al-Zawahri has been wounded.

If true, that should make escape somewhat more difficult.
Dave


ISLAMABAD, Pakistan (AP) - Pakistani forces believe they have cornered and
perhaps wounded Osama bin Laden's deputy, Ayman al-Zawahri, in a major battle
near the Afghan border, an area where many believe the world's most wanted
terrorist has been hiding, three senior Pakistani officials said Thursday.

Pakistan President Gen. Pervez Musharraf said a ``high value'' target was
believed trapped in South Waziristan, a semiautonomous tribal belt that has
resisted outside intervention for centuries.

Hundreds of troops and paramilitary rangers pounded several fortress-like
mud-brick compounds with artillery and fired on them from helicopter gunships,
as entrenched suspects fought back hard. An intelligence official said
``dozens'' were killed Thursday.

At least 41 people - 15 soldiers and 26 suspected militants - were killed
earlier this week in fighting in the area.

The officials told The Associated Press that intelligence indicated the forces
had surrounded the Egyptian-born al-Zawahri in an operation that began Tuesday,
the first major break in the world's most intense manhunt in more than a year.

The region has long been considered the most likely hiding place for the top
two al-Qaida leaders - but there was no indication bin Laden was with
al-Zawahri. However, the two have traveled together in the past, and bin Laden
and al-Zawahri appeared jointly in video tapes released shortly after the Sept.
11, 2001, attacks on the United States.

The United States has offered a $25 million reward for information leading to
al-Zawahri's capture. On Thursday, the U.S. House of Representatives doubled
the reward for bin Laden's capture to $50 million.

``We have been receiving intelligence and information from our agents who are
working in the tribal areas that al-Zawahri could be among the people hiding
there,'' a Pakistani military official said. ``All of our efforts are to
capture him.''

An intelligence official and a senior politician in Musharraf's government both
confirmed the account. All spoke on condition of anonymity.

The intelligence official said information was also coming from some of the 18
suspects captured during Thursday's operation. Some said during interrogation
that al-Zawahri was wounded in the raid, the official said. Officials said
helicopter gunships and artillery would continue attacking at dawn Friday.

Musharraf told CNN that he'd spoken with the commander of Pakistani troops in
the region. He said the commander reported ``fierce resistance'' from a group
of fighters entrenched in fortress-like buildings, and that there were
indications a senior figure was surrounded.

``He's reasonably sure there's a high-value target there,'' Musharraf said.
``They are not coming out in spite of the fact that we pounded them with
artillery.''

The news came the same day as Secretary of State Colin Powell announced in the
capital, Islamabad, that Washington was bestowing the status of ``major
non-NATO ally'' on Pakistan, and praised the country for its help in the war on
terror.

National security adviser Condoleezza Rice told CNN she could not confirm the
reports.

But, she said, if al-Zawahri were captured, ``it would be of course a major
step forward in the war on terrorism, because he's obviously an extremely
important figure. But I think we have to be careful not to assume that getting
one al-Qaida leader is going to break up the organization.''

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said that the Pakistanis ``believe there
is a high-value al-Qaida target possibly involved'' in the operation. He said
he had no information on who the target was. He said Bush was informed of the
search.

The 52-year-old former Egyptian surgeon is believed to be the brains behind the
terror network, with bin Laden serving more as spiritual leader and financial
backer.

Often seen by bin Laden's side in videos released to Arab television networks,
the doctor was also thought to serve as al-Qaida leader's personal physician.

Al-Zawahri's Egyptian Islamic Jihad was believed behind the assassination of
President Anwar Sadat during a Cairo military parade in 1981. He merged the
organization with al-Qaida in 1998.

Al-Zawahri has continued to spread his message since the Sept. 11 attacks in
audiotapes, the latest broadcast on Feb. 24, in which he taunted President Bush
and threatened more attacks on the United States. Another tape criticized
France's decision to ban Islamic headscarves in schools.

Under pressure from Washington, Pakistan has arrested more than 500 al-Qaida
suspects and has turned most over to the United States. The last major capture
was that of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the former al-Qaida No. 3, who was nabbed
on March 1, 2003, in a house near the capital and quickly delivered to U.S.
custody. He is being held at an undisclosed location.

The Pakistani military has been pursuing 100 tribal leaders whom authorities
want to roll into their efforts to hunt al-Qaida in the Waziristan frontier. So
far, about two-thirds have said they would provide information and turn over
any Islamic militants in their territories, American defense officials said.

The others face destruction of their homes by the Pakistani military, officials
said.

There have been several anti-terror sweeps in the tribal regions in recent
months, but none so bloody as the operation that began Tuesday. Pakistani
troops have moved 70,000 troops into the border region, and Musharraf on Monday
promised to rid the tribal areas of foreign terrorists.

U.S. officials say they are watching to see if the Pakistani actions send
militants back into Afghanistan, where U.S. troops operate freely. The U.S.
military on Sunday announced the start of a new operation to track down senior
al-Qaida and Taliban fugitives.

Two American soldiers were killed and two others were wounded in fighting
Thursday in central Afghanistan, the U.S. military said. At least five
attackers were killed in the battle.

The military said that because of the location, the fighting did not appear to
be directly related to the siege against al-Zawahri.

Afghan officials told AP they were closely monitoring the Pakistani operation.

``We are hopeful operations being carried out in border regions will yield some
desirable results,'' said Afghan Foreign Ministry spokesman Omar Samad. ``If a
well known figure is part of these captures ... the world will be a safer
place.''

Thursday's raid concentrated on three South Waziristan towns - Azam Warsak,
Shin Warsak and Kaloosha. Early morning calls from mosques warned residents to
leave the area, apparently to give the troops more room to operate.

Powell, who left the country hours before the news broke, also said he believed
there was evidence that bin Laden is hiding in the rugged border area.

``No one has seen him, so how can one be sure?'' Powell told Geo TV. ``But he
has certainly given evidence that he is alive and active. But we can't be sure.

``And if he is alive and active, and the evidence suggests that he is, and if
he is in the area of the Pakistan-Afghan border, that's a very difficult area
to find someone who doesn't want to be found.''

Associated Press reporters Katherine Pfleger Shrader in Washington, Munir Ahmad
in Islamabad and Riaz Khan in Peshawar, Pakistan, contributed to this report.

03/18/04 19:50 EST

[Guy Alcala]

Dav1936531 wrote:

> >From: Guy Alcala
> >Date: 3/18/04 4:26 PM Eastern Standard Time
> >Message-id: >
> >
> >Oh, come now. Can't we even bet on whether the whole story is a put-up job
> for U.S. consumption, or whether they in fact have someone important cornered,
> or whether its al-Zawahri, or whether they'll capture/kill him or he/they
> escape, etc. Let's not limit ourselves.
> >Guy
>
> Gen. Mushariff recently pointed to Al-Qaeda as the group behind the recent two
> attempts on his life. I think he is probably serious about finding those
> responsible. And doing it during the time that Colin Powell is in country makes
> him look good...and deals a nice political victory to the Bush administration
> to boot.

Sure, he may well be. OTOH, we can't asume that everyone else involved has the
same priorities. Not that I think it is a put-up job, but I think the bet has to
be an option for those who want to take it.

> The fact is that they have probably had a pretty good idea of where he and
> Osama have been hiding out for a long time. Money talks in these places, and
> they probably have been able to buy pretty well connected (to Al-Qaeda)
> informants.

The $25 million on OBL's head, and the $25 million on Zawahri's haven't talked up
until now. I see the Congress has doubled Osama's bounty to $50 million. Gee, how
likely is it that there's someone out there in the hills of Afghanistan saying to
themselves, "A measly $25 million?!! Why, I wouldn't even consider betraying him
for a nickel less than $50 mill!"

Guy

[Charles Gray]

On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:53:49 GMT, Guy Alcala
> wrote:

>Dav1936531 wrote:

>
>The $25 million on OBL's head, and the $25 million on Zawahri's haven't talked up
>until now. I see the Congress has doubled Osama's bounty to $50 million. Gee, how
>likely is it that there's someone out there in the hills of Afghanistan saying to
>themselves, "A measly $25 million?!! Why, I wouldn't even consider betraying him
>for a nickel less than $50 mill!"
>
>Guy
>
Among his supporters, you're probably right-- but it will limit his
ability to move out of safe areas where his supporters exist. With a
small bounty, OBL might be able to live in many large cities, trusting
in the people to hide him (or get lost in the crush).
Also, a 50 mil reward allows the informant to move far away and have
money for good security, somethign that will probably be a wise
precaution...

[Stephen Harding]

Guy Alcala wrote:

> The $25 million on OBL's head, and the $25 million on Zawahri's haven't talked up
> until now. I see the Congress has doubled Osama's bounty to $50 million. Gee, how
> likely is it that there's someone out there in the hills of Afghanistan saying to
> themselves, "A measly $25 million?!! Why, I wouldn't even consider betraying him
> for a nickel less than $50 mill!"

I think it might actually send a more potent message to start
*lowering* the reward!

For people in the area, the ones in the know, there really isn't
much difference between $50M, $25M, $10M, $5M. It's an
unimaginably large amount of money.

Raising the reward seems to imply the US is failing. Something
even OBL haters might enjoy seeing. Lowering the reward sends
a message that the US is growing more stronger and more
confident in countering him.

Maybe not, but it might have some positive psychological effect.


SMH

[tscottme]

Charles Gray > wrote in message
...
> Among his supporters, you're probably right-- but it will limit his
> ability to move out of safe areas where his supporters exist. With a
> small bounty, OBL might be able to live in many large cities, trusting
> in the people to hide him (or get lost in the crush).
> Also, a 50 mil reward allows the informant to move far away and have
> money for good security, somethign that will probably be a wise
> precaution...
>

Then OBL's only safe areas may be Paris and San Francisco.

--
Scott
--------
Instead of vowing to fight the people who killed their fellow citizens,
the Spanish decided to vote with al-Qaida on the war. A murdering
terrorist organization said, "Jump!" and an entire country answered,
"How high?" -- Ann Coulter

[Matt Wiser]

Personal preference: taken alive, put before a U.S. Military Tribunal for
Violations of the Laws and Customs of War, convicted, and executed. Realistic
expectation: "Killed while resisting capture." Either way, justice for 9/11,
U.S.S. Cole, East Africa Embassies, Bali, Madrid, etc, is done. If we do
take him alive, shoot him full of babble juice so we can go after OBL. Then
put him on trial. After the trial, either have him hanged or shot: the needle
in this case is too lenient. A friend of mine from college suggested building
a gallows on the site of Ground Zero, and hanging any and all 9/11 plotters
and facilitators there where the atrocity took place.






(Dav1936531) wrote:
>Place your bets. Will Ayman al-Zawahri be captured
>alive? Or will he die the
>death of a glorious jihadi martyr? I'll bet
>he dies....... the Pakistanis
>hunting him probably have strict orders to kill
>him so he can't talk about
>Pakistan's relations with both the Taliban and
>Al-Qaeda.
>Dave
>
>WANA, Pakistan (March 18) - Pakistani troops
>believe they have surrounded
>al-Qaida No. 2 Ayman al-Zawahri in an operation
>near the Afghan border, three
>senior Pakistani officials said Thursday.
>
>The officials told The Associated Press that
>intelligence indicated the
>Egyptian-born al-Zawahri, Osama bin Laden's
>top deputy, has been cornered in an
>operation. One intelligence official said captured
>fighters said al-Zawahri had
>been wounded.
>
>The operation began Tuesday in South Waziristan
>with hundreds of troops and
>paramilitary rangers, who fired artillery and
>used helicopter gunships to
>attack dug-in al-Qaida fighters. Dozens of fighters
>were killed and 18 were
>captured, the intelligence official said.
>
>''We have been receiving intelligence and information
>from our agents who are
>working in the tribal areas that al-Zawahri
>could be among the people hiding
>there,'' a military official said. ''All of
>our efforts are to capture him.''
>
>An intelligence official and senior politician
>in President Gen. Pervez
>Musharraf's government both confirmed the account.
>All spoke on condition of
>anonymity.
>
>The United States has offered a $25 million
>reward for information leading to
>al-Zawahri's capture.
>
>Pakistani officials said they do not have any
>intelligence indicating that bin
>Laden is with al-Zawahri. In the past, intelligence
>officials have speculated
>that the two are traveling together, and bin
>Laden and al-Zawahri appeared
>together in video tapes released shortly after
>the Sept. 11 attacks.
>
>In an interview with CNN, Musharraf said he
>had spoken with the commander of
>Pakistani troops in the region. He said the
>commander reported ''fierce
>resistance'' from a group of fighters entrenched
>in fort-like buildings and
>that there were indications that a senior figure
>was surrounded.
>
>''He's reasonably sure there's a high-value
>target there,'' Musharraf said.
>
>Musharraf said the area was being ''pounded''
>by artillery.
>
>Speaking on the condition of anonymity, a U.S.
>counterterrorism official said:
>''It would appear that the Pakistanis have surrounded
>a very senior al-Qaida
>figure, but at this point we are not certain
>who it is.''
>
>The Pakistani military has been pursuing 100
>tribal leaders that authorities
>want to roll into their efforts to hunt al-Qaida
>in the Waziristan frontier. So
>far, about two-thirds have said they would provide
>information and turn over
>any Islamic militants in their territories,
>American defense officials said on
>condition of anonymity.
>
>The others are facing destruction of their homes
>by the hands of Pakistani
>military, officials said.
>
>The Pakistanis also are targeting Arabs and
>other foreigners who settled in the
>tribal regions shortly after the Afghan-Soviet
>war in the 1980s, the officials
>said. While some veterans of the war formed
>the nucleus of al-Qaida, others put
>down roots in Pakistan.
>
>It is believed that some of these veterans are
>providing a support network for
>bin Laden and his followers in the region, officials
>said.
>
>U.S. officials say they are watching to see
>if the Pakistani actions send
>militant fighters moving back to Afghanistan,
>where U.S. troops operate freely.
>
>Hundreds of Pakistani troops have moved into
>three South Waziristan towns -
>Azam Warsak, Shin Warsak and Kaloosha - against
>entrenched positions.
>
>''They are not coming out in spite of the fact
>that we pounded them with
>artillery,'' Musharraf told CNN.
>
>Early morning calls from mosques warned residents
>in Azam Warsak, Shin Warsak
>and Kaloosha to leave the area, apparently to
>give the troops more room to
>operate.
>
>''They asked locals, women and children, to
>move out, which many did. And then
>they shot upon the area, with ... helicopters
>also,'' Musharraf told CNN.
>
>At least 41 people - including 15 soldiers and
>26 suspected militants - were
>killed Tuesday in fighting in the area, and
>army spokesman Gen. Shaukat Sultan
>said there were an unknown number of casualties
>in continued action Thursday.
>
>The military said Thursday that most of those
>killed were foreigners, but it
>did not give their nationalities and acknowledged
>that only two bodies had been
>recovered.
>
>The two dead were believed to be a Chechen and
>someone of Middle Eastern
>origin, a military official said on condition
>of anonymity.
>
>The news came the same day as Secretary of State
>Colin Powell announced in
>Islamabad that Washington was bestowing the
>status of ''major non-NATO ally''
>on Pakistan and praised it for its help in the
>war on terror.
>
>Musharraf, a key ally in the U.S.-led war on
>terrorism, promised Monday to rid
>the tribal areas of foreign terrorists.
>
>Powell, who left the country hours before the
>announcement, also said he
>believed there was evidence that al-Qaida leader
>bin Laden is still alive and
>hiding in the rugged border area.
>
>''No one has seen him, so how can one be sure?''
>Powell told Geo TV. ''But he
>has certainly given evidence that he is alive
>and active. But we can't be sure.
>
>''And if he is alive and active, and the evidence
>suggests that he is, and if
>he is in the area of the Pakistan-Afghan border,
>that's a very difficult area
>to find someone who doesn't want to be found.''
>
>A spokesman for the U.S. military in Afghanistan
>told AP the force hoped
>Pakistani soldiers had indeed cornered al-Zawahri,
>but he had no new
>information on the whereabouts of either of
>the al-Qaida leaders.
>
>''All the senior leaders of al-Qaida will be
>brought to justice,'' Lt. Col.
>Bryan Hilferty said.
>
>Hilferty said a U.S. operation begun March 7
>on the Afghan side of the border
>was continuing, but he gave no details and said
>he had no information of any
>signs of militants fleeing from Pakistan.
>
>About a dozen helicopters buzzed over Wana,
>the main town in South Waziristan,
>early Thursday, flying toward the operation
>zone about six miles to the west.
>
>A convoy of army trucks carrying soldiers also
>passed Wana hours before the
>operation started. Later, mortar explosions
>were heard in the town.
>
>Interior Ministry spokesman Abdur Rauf Chaudhry
>said extra troops were
>dispatched in anticipation of the new offensive.
>
>He said ''a few'' paramilitary troops are missing
>from Tuesday's operation in
>Kaloosha, with rumors in the region that they
>may have been kidnapped by the
>suspected militants.
>
>The raid has sparked outrage in the tribal region,
>which fiercely covets its
>autonomy and has resisted outside intervention
>for centuries.
>
>In another part of the tribal region, North
>Waziristan, attackers launched a
>rocket and fired gunshots at a Pakistan army
>post before dawn Thursday, Sultan
>said. Two soldiers died and several were injured
>in the attack, an intelligence
>official told the AP on condition of anonymity.
>
>The official also said assailants threw a hand
>grenade at an army truck heading
>to Miran Shah, North Waziristan's main town,
>and that several soldiers were
>injured. But Sultan denied the incident occurred.
>
>
>03-18-04 15:12 EST
>
>


Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Tarver Engineering]

"Matt Wiser" > wrote in message
news:405b21da$1@bg2....
>
> Personal preference: taken alive, put before a U.S. Military Tribunal for
> Violations of the Laws and Customs of War, convicted, and executed.
Realistic
> expectation: "Killed while resisting capture." Either way, justice for
9/11,
> U.S.S. Cole, East Africa Embassies, Bali, Madrid, etc, is done. If we do
> take him alive, shoot him full of babble juice so we can go after OBL.
Then
> put him on trial. After the trial, either have him hanged or shot: the
needle
> in this case is too lenient. A friend of mine from college suggested
building
> a gallows on the site of Ground Zero, and hanging any and all 9/11
plotters
> and facilitators there where the atrocity took place.

Heads on pikes?

[D. Strang]

"Matt Wiser" > wrote
>
> A friend of mine from college suggested building
> a gallows on the site of Ground Zero, and hanging any and all 9/11 plotters
> and facilitators there where the atrocity took place.

So the dead spirits can remain together with those they killed?

[[email protected]]

Stephen Harding > wrote:

>Guy Alcala wrote:
>
>> The $25 million on OBL's head, and the $25 million on Zawahri's haven't talked up
>> until now. I see the Congress has doubled Osama's bounty to $50 million. Gee, how
>> likely is it that there's someone out there in the hills of Afghanistan saying to
>> themselves, "A measly $25 million?!! Why, I wouldn't even consider betraying him
>> for a nickel less than $50 mill!"
>
>I think it might actually send a more potent message to start
>*lowering* the reward!
>
>For people in the area, the ones in the know, there really isn't
>much difference between $50M, $25M, $10M, $5M. It's an
>unimaginably large amount of money.
>
>Raising the reward seems to imply the US is failing. Something
>even OBL haters might enjoy seeing. Lowering the reward sends
>a message that the US is growing more stronger and more
>confident in countering him.
>
>Maybe not, but it might have some positive psychological effect.
>
>
>SMH

Could be...might make some fence sitters think, "Damn, I better
make hay while the sun shines"
--

-Gord.

[Matt Wiser]

"Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
>
>"Matt Wiser" > wrote
>in message
>news:405b21da$1@bg2....
>>
>> Personal preference: taken alive, put before
>a U.S. Military Tribunal for
>> Violations of the Laws and Customs of War,
>convicted, and executed.
>Realistic
>> expectation: "Killed while resisting capture."
>Either way, justice for
>9/11,
>> U.S.S. Cole, East Africa Embassies, Bali,
>Madrid, etc, is done. If we do
>> take him alive, shoot him full of babble juice
>so we can go after OBL.
>Then
>> put him on trial. After the trial, either
>have him hanged or shot: the
>needle
>> in this case is too lenient. A friend of mine
>from college suggested
>building
>> a gallows on the site of Ground Zero, and
>hanging any and all 9/11
>plotters
>> and facilitators there where the atrocity
>took place.
>
>Heads on pikes?
>
>
That was my friend's suggestion: and in the old days that sent a pretty
strong message that if you got out of line, the price paid was in the extreme.
I'd personally prefer giving them either the needle or the noose.And keep
the burial site secret: no turning a grave site into a shrine for those who
might grieve for the deceased.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article <405c50d2@bg2.>, "Matt Wiser" >
wrote:

> "Tarver Engineering" > wrote:
> >
> >"Matt Wiser" > wrote
> >in message
> >news:405b21da$1@bg2....
> >>
> >> Personal preference: taken alive, put before
> >a U.S. Military Tribunal for
> >> Violations of the Laws and Customs of War,
> >convicted, and executed.
> >Realistic
> >> expectation: "Killed while resisting capture."
> >Either way, justice for
> >9/11,
> >> U.S.S. Cole, East Africa Embassies, Bali,
> >Madrid, etc, is done. If we do
> >> take him alive, shoot him full of babble juice
> >so we can go after OBL.
> >Then
> >> put him on trial. After the trial, either
> >have him hanged or shot: the
> >needle
> >> in this case is too lenient. A friend of mine
> >from college suggested
> >building
> >> a gallows on the site of Ground Zero, and
> >hanging any and all 9/11
> >plotters
> >> and facilitators there where the atrocity
> >took place.
> >
> >Heads on pikes?
> >
> >
> That was my friend's suggestion: and in the old days that sent a pretty
> strong message that if you got out of line, the price paid was in the extreme.
> I'd personally prefer giving them either the needle or the noose.And keep
> the burial site secret: no turning a grave site into a shrine for those who
> might grieve for the deceased.
>
> Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

And -- bury his body encased in a hog carcass!

[Guy Alcala]

Charles Gray wrote:

> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:53:49 GMT, Guy Alcala
> > wrote:
>
> >Dav1936531 wrote:
>
> >
> >The $25 million on OBL's head, and the $25 million on Zawahri's haven't talked up
> >until now. I see the Congress has doubled Osama's bounty to $50 million. Gee, how
> >likely is it that there's someone out there in the hills of Afghanistan saying to
> >themselves, "A measly $25 million?!! Why, I wouldn't even consider betraying him
> >for a nickel less than $50 mill!"
> >
> >Guy
> >
> Among his supporters, you're probably right-- but it will limit his
> ability to move out of safe areas where his supporters exist. With a
> small bounty, OBL might be able to live in many large cities, trusting
> in the people to hide him (or get lost in the crush).

You think $25 million is a SMALL bounty?!?! H'mmm. You're really Bill Gates, and I
claim my 5 pounds ;-)

> Also, a 50 mil reward allows the informant to move far away and have
> money for good security, somethign that will probably be a wise
> precaution...

Yeah, I can just see the average Afghan villager, eking out his existence tending his
goats and his small plot of land, saying to himself, "I just don't see _how_ I could
afford to move away and live elsewhere for _only_ $25 million; I'd need _at least_
another $25 million just for cabfare and tips" ;-)

Guy

[Guy Alcala]

" wrote:

> Stephen Harding > wrote:
>
> >Guy Alcala wrote:
> >
> >> The $25 million on OBL's head, and the $25 million on Zawahri's haven't talked up
> >> until now. I see the Congress has doubled Osama's bounty to $50 million. Gee, how
> >> likely is it that there's someone out there in the hills of Afghanistan saying to
> >> themselves, "A measly $25 million?!! Why, I wouldn't even consider betraying him
> >> for a nickel less than $50 mill!"
> >
> >I think it might actually send a more potent message to start
> >*lowering* the reward!
> >
> >For people in the area, the ones in the know, there really isn't
> >much difference between $50M, $25M, $10M, $5M. It's an
> >unimaginably large amount of money.
> >
> >Raising the reward seems to imply the US is failing. Something
> >even OBL haters might enjoy seeing. Lowering the reward sends
> >a message that the US is growing more stronger and more
> >confident in countering him.
> >
> >Maybe not, but it might have some positive psychological effect.
> >
> >
> >SMH
>
> Could be...might make some fence sitters think, "Damn, I better
> make hay while the sun shines"

So, you're thinking a dutch auction?

Guy

[Peter Stickney]

In article >,
Guy Alcala > writes:
> Charles Gray wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 19 Mar 2004 04:53:49 GMT, Guy Alcala
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >Dav1936531 wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >The $25 million on OBL's head, and the $25 million on Zawahri's haven't talked up
>> >until now. I see the Congress has doubled Osama's bounty to $50 million. Gee, how
>> >likely is it that there's someone out there in the hills of Afghanistan saying to
>> >themselves, "A measly $25 million?!! Why, I wouldn't even consider betraying him
>> >for a nickel less than $50 mill!"
>> >
>> >Guy
>> >
>> Among his supporters, you're probably right-- but it will limit his
>> ability to move out of safe areas where his supporters exist. With a
>> small bounty, OBL might be able to live in many large cities, trusting
>> in the people to hide him (or get lost in the crush).
>
> You think $25 million is a SMALL bounty?!?! H'mmm. You're really Bill Gates, and I
> claim my 5 pounds ;-)

Actually, when you're dealing with, say, illiterate and immumerate
peasant types (Such as are, unfortunately, still by far the most
common folks you're going to meet in, say Afghanistan, or Pakistan,
ore pretty much anywhere else in that corner of the world, even in the
cities, it very quickly gets to the point where, by raising the
reward, all you're doing it trading one unimaginably huge sum for
another. 25 million, 50 million, even 1 million - it's all pretty
much the same to folks who are still counting in 1, 2, several,
many... (Actually, the biggest number that they seem to be able to get
their minds around is 40-50.) I kind of like the idea of dropping hte
reward, and publicizing that fact. Hit 'em in their vanity, you're
almost sure to get a reaction. In fact, let's set up a scheduled
rollback on the reward. For every two months that passes, we knock a
million off of the reward. Then we can sturt in with the derision &
humiliation. Start a campaign to cast ridicule on the Terrs and their
cause, really do the Saturday Night Live thing (From back when it was
funny) on them. (Look what Garret Morris did for Idi Amin, after
all). Put David Hasselhof & Pamela Anderson in it, and we can
guarantee a wide-ranging World-wide viewership.

I think I'll go do lunch, now.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

[Guy Alcala]

Peter Stickney wrote:

> In article >,
> Guy Alcala > writes:

<snip>

> > You think $25 million is a SMALL bounty?!?! H'mmm. You're really Bill Gates, and I
> > claim my 5 pounds ;-)
>
> Actually, when you're dealing with, say, illiterate and immumerate
> peasant types (Such as are, unfortunately, still by far the most
> common folks you're going to meet in, say Afghanistan, or Pakistan,
> ore pretty much anywhere else in that corner of the world, even in the
> cities, it very quickly gets to the point where, by raising the
> reward, all you're doing it trading one unimaginably huge sum for
> another. 25 million, 50 million, even 1 million - it's all pretty
> much the same to folks who are still counting in 1, 2, several,
> many... (Actually, the biggest number that they seem to be able to get
> their minds around is 40-50.) I kind of like the idea of dropping hte
> reward, and publicizing that fact. Hit 'em in their vanity, you're
> almost sure to get a reaction. In fact, let's set up a scheduled
> rollback on the reward. For every two months that passes, we knock a
> million off of the reward. Then we can sturt in with the derision &
> humiliation. Start a campaign to cast ridicule on the Terrs and their
> cause, really do the Saturday Night Live thing (From back when it was
> funny) on them. (Look what Garret Morris did for Idi Amin, after
> all). Put David Hasselhof & Pamela Anderson in it, and we can
> guarantee a wide-ranging World-wide viewership.
>
> I think I'll go do lunch, now.

Definitely seemed to be an incipient chemcial imbalance developing there, for lack of
nourishment ;-)

Guy