Amphibious Planes

[Gezellig]

Who determines where you can or cannot land one?

[Mike[_22_]]

"Gezellig" > wrote in message
...
> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?

Whoever owns the water.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.piloting Gezellig > wrote:
> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?

Whoever has legal juridicion over the body of water, just like dirt.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:36:24 -0400, Gezellig >
wrote:

>Who determines where you can or cannot land one?

In Canada it's the pilot.

[Gezellig]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:51:36 GMT, Mike wrote:

> "Gezellig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>
> Whoever owns the water.

How do you determine who does?

[Frank Olson]

Gezellig wrote:
> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?


I'd have to say that the local approach control will have jurisdiction
(if the body of water you want to land on happens to be in controlled
airspace). Otherwise it's "keep your eye out for deadheads" (and
deadbeat boat drivers) - at least in Canada.

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:33:30 GMT, Drew Dalgleish wrote:

> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:36:24 -0400, Gezellig >
> wrote:
>
>>Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>
> In Canada it's the pilot.

Let's say the State of X is the water owner. In CA, the pilot can land
anywhere. Without penalty?

In US? Where is the jurisdiction enforced?

[ET]

Gezellig > wrote in news:6i3uocFo7l86U1
@mid.individual.net:

> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:51:36 GMT, Mike wrote:
>
>> "Gezellig" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>>
>> Whoever owns the water.
>
> How do you determine who does?

http://www.seaplanes.org/library/wld.htm



--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Zebulon]

"Gezellig" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:33:30 GMT, Drew Dalgleish wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:36:24 -0400, Gezellig >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>>
>> In Canada it's the pilot.
>
> Let's say the State of X is the water owner. In CA, the pilot can land
> anywhere. Without penalty?
>
> In US? Where is the jurisdiction enforced?

At least in the Midwest US, most of the lakes are controlled by the US Army
Corp of Engineers. They maintain one of more offices in every state around
here.

[Mike[_22_]]

"Gezellig" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:51:36 GMT, Mike wrote:
>
>> "Gezellig" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>>
>> Whoever owns the water.
>
> How do you determine who does?

Most bigger lakes are going to be controlled by the state or by a local
water authority. The state would be a good place to check first.

[Jules]

Frank Olson wrote:
Otherwise it's "keep your eye out for deadheads" (and
> deadbeat boat drivers) - at least in Canada.

Yes. One cottage owner was steering his boat into floatplanes to thwart
them from landing. He also called and complained that the plane operator
was at fault and cutting off his boat. Witness' proved otherwise.

He was a summer owner from the US.

Tourists.

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 08:22:11 +0200 (CEST), ET wrote:

>>> Whoever owns the water.
>>
>> How do you determine who does?
>
> http://www.seaplanes.org/library/wld.htm

Thx!

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:16:16 GMT, Mike wrote:

>> How do you determine who does?
>
> Most bigger lakes are going to be controlled by the state or by a local
> water authority. The state would be a good place to check first.

Yeah, I'm in FL, we have private waters, submerged land leases (marinas,
boat docks, etc) and State-Owned (beaches). Will check FL. Private
waters I suppose would be trespassing.

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 07:17:50 -0500, Zebulon wrote:

> "Gezellig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 02:33:30 GMT, Drew Dalgleish wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:36:24 -0400, Gezellig >
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>>>
>>> In Canada it's the pilot.
>>
>> Let's say the State of X is the water owner. In CA, the pilot can land
>> anywhere. Without penalty?
>>
>> In US? Where is the jurisdiction enforced?
>
> At least in the Midwest US, most of the lakes are controlled by the US Army
> Corp of Engineers. They maintain one of more offices in every state around
> here.

FL here, ACoE, Water Management Districts, some FL DEP, State, it's a
mess.

What got me interested was a poster who was claiming he liked the Icon
A5 which is built around the corner from me.

http://www.iconaircraft.com/

The statement was he thought it would be neat to be able to fly from
lake to lake or whatever, the idea of freedom of access to many
waterbodies (the sports, shores, camping, etc). Sounded nice to me as
well but practical?

[Gezellig]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:51:36 GMT, Mike wrote:

> "Gezellig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>
> Whoever owns the water.

Anyone have any experience in training and receiving their seaplane
certification?

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 1, 2:36*pm, Gezellig > wrote:
> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?

Not only do you need to check for permission, more and more lakes are
begining to require inspections before putting anything in the water
(boats, jet skis, planes, etc). People are really afraid of this
mussle problem going around and are very, very afraid of boats, etc
spreading mussles from one lake to another. I no longer do much sea
plane flying but I'm assuming the lack of "clean" mogas is a hug
problem for them. We used to be able to taxi up to the dock and buy
gas. Today a lot of the auto gas contains illegal ethanol.

-Robert

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT), "Robert M. Gary"
> wrote:

>On Sep 1, 2:36=A0pm, Gezellig > wrote:
>> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>
>Not only do you need to check for permission, more and more lakes are
>begining to require inspections before putting anything in the water
>(boats, jet skis, planes, etc). People are really afraid of this
>mussle problem going around and are very, very afraid of boats, etc
>spreading mussles from one lake to another. I no longer do much sea
>plane flying but I'm assuming the lack of "clean" mogas is a hug
>problem for them. We used to be able to taxi up to the dock and buy
>gas. Today a lot of the auto gas contains illegal ethanol.
>
>-Robert

The proliferation of jet skis has one positive side. Many marinas now
sell premium gas which is usually ethanol free. My plane is an
amphibian so I usually just buy 100LL at an airport. Saves the hassle
of checking every time.

[Mike[_22_]]

"Gezellig" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:16:16 GMT, Mike wrote:
>
>>> How do you determine who does?
>>
>> Most bigger lakes are going to be controlled by the state or by a local
>> water authority. The state would be a good place to check first.
>
> Yeah, I'm in FL, we have private waters, submerged land leases (marinas,
> boat docks, etc) and State-Owned (beaches). Will check FL. Private
> waters I suppose would be trespassing.

Not necessarily. If the owner of a lake takes money or assistance from the
state, they may be bound to allow public access which may include landing an
amphib.

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:37:44 GMT, Mike wrote:

> "Gezellig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:16:16 GMT, Mike wrote:
>>
>>>> How do you determine who does?
>>>
>>> Most bigger lakes are going to be controlled by the state or by a local
>>> water authority. The state would be a good place to check first.
>>
>> Yeah, I'm in FL, we have private waters, submerged land leases (marinas,
>> boat docks, etc) and State-Owned (beaches). Will check FL. Private
>> waters I suppose would be trespassing.
>
> Not necessarily. If the owner of a lake takes money or assistance from the
> state, they may be bound to allow public access which may include landing an
> amphib.

Yeah, good point, Mike. many do to stock fish, etc.

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:31:43 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

> On Sep 1, 2:36*pm, Gezellig > wrote:
>> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>
> Not only do you need to check for permission, more and more lakes are
> begining to require inspections before putting anything in the water
> (boats, jet skis, planes, etc). People are really afraid of this
> mussle problem going around and are very, very afraid of boats, etc
> spreading mussles from one lake to another. I no longer do much sea
> plane flying but I'm assuming the lack of "clean" mogas is a hug
> problem for them. We used to be able to taxi up to the dock and buy
> gas. Today a lot of the auto gas contains illegal ethanol.
>
> -Robert

The gas thing is a for sure, I wasn't aware of the mussels issue (FL not
sure we have one). Is it some kind of disease Xport?

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:23:47 GMT, Drew Dalgleish wrote:

> The proliferation of jet skis has one positive side. Many marinas now
> sell premium gas which is usually ethanol free. My plane is an
> amphibian so I usually just buy 100LL at an airport. Saves the hassle
> of checking every time.

Drew, are you more concerned with contamination at a boat dock mogas
facility than at the airport? I would although I am not sure I can
justify why.

[Lonnie[_3_]]

"Gezellig" > wrote in message
...
>
> FL here, ACoE, Water Management Districts, some FL DEP, State, it's a
> mess.
>
> What got me interested was a poster who was claiming he liked the Icon
> A5 which is built around the corner from me.
>
> http://www.iconaircraft.com/
>
> The statement was he thought it would be neat to be able to fly from
> lake to lake or whatever, the idea of freedom of access to many
> waterbodies (the sports, shores, camping, etc). Sounded nice to me as
> well but practical?

I don't know what the Corp's policy is today, but they do have regs that
forbid air delivery on Corp property and lakes, without a permit granted
days in advance. Unless it was an established seaplane base.

I have seen ultralights at the lakes on floats, but have no idea if any have
been stopped or fined.

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:51:25 -0400, Gezellig >
wrote:

>On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:23:47 GMT, Drew Dalgleish wrote:
>
>> The proliferation of jet skis has one positive side. Many marinas now
>> sell premium gas which is usually ethanol free. My plane is an
>> amphibian so I usually just buy 100LL at an airport. Saves the hassle
>> of checking every time.
>
>Drew, are you more concerned with contamination at a boat dock mogas
>facility than at the airport? I would although I am not sure I can
>justify why.

No I think there's nothing wrong with buying gas at a marina if it's
ethanol free. I have had trouble getting to the pumps at marinas for
some reason they think it's neccessary to put lampposts and mast
hoists right where I want my wing.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 2, 1:49*pm, Gezellig > wrote:

>
> The gas thing is a for sure, I wasn't aware of the mussels issue (FL not
> sure we have one). Is it some kind of disease Xport?

Right now its a major issue in California. Apparently some mussels are
spreading across the South and have now taken up in SoCal. Many in
central/northern California are very worried about it. Some lakes just
have signs about avoiding certain lakes and not putting your boat in a
strange lake unless its been out of the water for 30 days. Some
places, like Clearlake, have made it a criminal offense to put
anything in the water that has not been issued an official seal by an
inspector.

http://www.co.lake.ca.us/Government/DepartmentDirectory/Water_Resources/Mussel_Prevention.htm

-Robert

[[email protected]]

On Sep 1, 8:33 pm, (Drew Dalgleish)
wrote:
> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:36:24 -0400, Gezellig >
> wrote:
>
> >Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>
> In Canada it's the pilot.

Not everywhere. See http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/P/Park/180_90_02.htm#ScheduleA
for restrictions in B.C.

Dan

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:30:17 -0500, Lonnie wrote:

>> What got me interested was a poster who was claiming he liked the Icon
>> A5 which is built around the corner from me.
>>
>> http://www.iconaircraft.com/
>>
>> The statement was he thought it would be neat to be able to fly from
>> lake to lake or whatever, the idea of freedom of access to many
>> waterbodies (the sports, shores, camping, etc). Sounded nice to me as
>> well but practical?
>
> I don't know what the Corp's policy is today, but they do have regs that
> forbid air delivery on Corp property and lakes, without a permit granted
> days in advance. Unless it was an established seaplane base.

As in parcel or goods delivery?

> I have seen ultralights at the lakes on floats, but have no idea if any have
> been stopped or fined.

Same here.

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:39:05 -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:

> The Great Lakes have a big problem with zebra mussels, a salt water
> species that were imported in ballast water from seagoing freighters.
> They have thrived in the big lakes and have been spreading into more and
> more inland lakes.

The effect being...?

[Gezellig]

On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 03:31:15 GMT, Drew Dalgleish wrote:

> On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:51:25 -0400, Gezellig >
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:23:47 GMT, Drew Dalgleish wrote:
>>
>>> The proliferation of jet skis has one positive side. Many marinas now
>>> sell premium gas which is usually ethanol free. My plane is an
>>> amphibian so I usually just buy 100LL at an airport. Saves the hassle
>>> of checking every time.
>>
>>Drew, are you more concerned with contamination at a boat dock mogas
>>facility than at the airport? I would although I am not sure I can
>>justify why.
>
> No I think there's nothing wrong with buying gas at a marina if it's
> ethanol free. I have had trouble getting to the pumps at marinas for
> some reason they think it's neccessary to put lampposts and mast
> hoists right where I want my wing.

lol

[Gezellig]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Right now its a major issue in California. Apparently some mussels are
> spreading across the South and have now taken up in SoCal. Many in
> central/northern California are very worried about it. Some lakes just
> have signs about avoiding certain lakes and not putting your boat in a
> strange lake unless its been out of the water for 30 days. Some
> places, like Clearlake, have made it a criminal offense to put
> anything in the water that has not been issued an official seal by an
> inspector.
>
> http://www.co.lake.ca.us/Government/DepartmentDirectory/Water_Resources/Mussel_Prevention.htm
>
> -Robert

http://www.gma.org/surfing/human/zebra.html

Now I understand, gruesome buggers, aren't they?

[Lonnie[_3_]]

"Gezellig" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:30:17 -0500, Lonnie wrote:
>
>>> What got me interested was a poster who was claiming he liked the Icon
>>> A5 which is built around the corner from me.
>>>
>>> http://www.iconaircraft.com/
>>>
>>> The statement was he thought it would be neat to be able to fly from
>>> lake to lake or whatever, the idea of freedom of access to many
>>> waterbodies (the sports, shores, camping, etc). Sounded nice to me as
>>> well but practical?
>>
>> I don't know what the Corp's policy is today, but they do have regs that
>> forbid air delivery on Corp property and lakes, without a permit granted
>> days in advance. Unless it was an established seaplane base.
>
> As in parcel or goods delivery?

The landing of anything, by any manner. Aircraft, parachutes, etc. Arriving
on Corp property by air.

>
>> I have seen ultralights at the lakes on floats, but have no idea if any
>> have
>> been stopped or fined.
>
> Same here.

[nrp]

On Sep 2, 11:02 pm, Gezellig > wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:39:05 -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
> > The Great Lakes have a big problem with zebra mussels, a salt water
> > species that were imported in ballast water from seagoing freighters.
> > They have thrived in the big lakes and have been spreading into more and
> > more inland lakes.
>
> The effect being...?

Having zebra mussels in a lake is like putting glass shards all around
and attaching them to anything where the water flows. They are
extremely prolific (1 million from one in a year), stink up
everything, and the shells are so sharp that chainmail gloves are
needed to handle submerged boat parts or dock hardware etc.

There is an organization (the 100th Meridian initiative) that has been
trying to keep ZM confined to the eastern half of the country. They
had propagated as far as Kansas but in Dec 2006 they were discovered
in Lake Mead. It was probably a single boat that did this 1000 mile
jump, but now the west coast lakes can look forward to this.

I am concerned that Lake Winnebago in Oshkosh is listed as having a
zebra mussel infestation, which could quickly be spread all over
Wisconsin by seaplanes.

This is a very serious issue.

[Peter Dohm]

"Gezellig" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:51:49 -0700 (PDT), Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
>> Right now its a major issue in California. Apparently some mussels are
>> spreading across the South and have now taken up in SoCal. Many in
>> central/northern California are very worried about it. Some lakes just
>> have signs about avoiding certain lakes and not putting your boat in a
>> strange lake unless its been out of the water for 30 days. Some
>> places, like Clearlake, have made it a criminal offense to put
>> anything in the water that has not been issued an official seal by an
>> inspector.
>>
>> http://www.co.lake.ca.us/Government/DepartmentDirectory/Water_Resources/Mussel_Prevention.htm
>>
>> -Robert
>
> http://www.gma.org/surfing/human/zebra.html
>
> Now I understand, gruesome buggers, aren't they?

Hmmmm. More and more, when I read these sorts on things, I wonder...
did we, or the europeans, outlaw a method of control for "environmental"
reasons?

Just a little more food for thought.

Peter

[Gezellig]

On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 21:51:36 GMT, Mike wrote:

> "Gezellig" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>
> Whoever owns the water.

On a side note, I emailed ICON and they referred me to the seaplane
directory. I asked about the "boating" aspect, that is if a license was
needed since you can, theoretically, move around the lake in it. Got a
"No" but I wonder when "No" becomes "Yes".Several lakes I would like to
fly into have adequate landing lengths but ramps would be miles away (if
you were to pull to the dry for a trailer.

Hm, come to think of it, I wonder if you could dry or wet slip an ICON?

[Drew Dalgleish]

On Tue, 2 Sep 2008 20:58:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

>On Sep 1, 8:33 pm, (Drew Dalgleish)
>wrote:
>> On Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:36:24 -0400, Gezellig >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Who determines where you can or cannot land one?
>>
>> In Canada it's the pilot.
>
> Not everywhere. See http://www.qp.gov.bc.ca/statreg/reg/P/Park/180_90_02.htm#ScheduleA
>for restrictions in B.C.
>
> Dan
>
Yeah there's always exceptions. I'm in Ontario and most of the
provincial parks here are closed as well. With so many lakes available
it really isn't an issue for me. This morning I was doing touch and
goes on lake huron at grand bend. Beutiful flat almost glassy water.

[Frank Olson]

Jules wrote:
>
>
> Frank Olson wrote:
> Otherwise it's "keep your eye out for deadheads" (and
>> deadbeat boat drivers) - at least in Canada.
>
> Yes. One cottage owner was steering his boat into floatplanes to thwart
> them from landing. He also called and complained that the plane operator
> was at fault and cutting off his boat. Witness' proved otherwise.
>
> He was a summer owner from the US.
>
> Tourists.
>


I love summertime and have some great memories of flying float as a
"single guy" out to impress the ladies. I was seventeen when I got my
license and the first endorsement I got was my float. Earned that on a
Piper Supercub with 150 ponies up front. Cultus Lake was my favourite
place to practice glassy water landings. Now-a-days, you'd be hard
pressed to land amidst all the idiots in boats. Sadly, the guy that
taught me everything I know about float planes (and bears) is no longer
with us. He was killed in a midair over the Bellingham VOR. Two good
friends "bought it" with him too. They were practicing instrument
procedures in a Seneca and collided with a C-172 working the same radial
and going in pretty much the opposite direction. The guy in the 172
walked away after force landing in a field. The Seneca "augered" in.
The ironic thing about this tragic event was that Bob (the CFI) was
"paranoid" about clearing turns and "keepin' your eyes peeled for the
other guy". He'd had a close call with a student pilot years before
when the C-150 he was piloting almost became an aerial landing strip for
a Piper Arrow "letting down" on approach to the Delta Air Park. I can
only surmise he was distracted momentarily and missed seeing the 172
coming right at him. He was just a few hours away from the 14000 mark too

[Fred the Red Shirt]

On Sep 3, 12:02*am, Gezellig > wrote:
> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:39:05 -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
> > The Great Lakes have a big problem with zebra mussels, a salt water
> > species that were imported in ballast water from seagoing freighters.
> > They have thrived in the big lakes and have been spreading into more and
> > more inland lakes.
>
> The effect being...?

They kill a number of native fish. In Lake Erie they set back the
recovery
of lake perch. ISTR they are also a nuisance in cooling systems such
as
those used for nuclear power plants.

--

FF

[Stella Starr]

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
> On Sep 3, 12:02 am, Gezellig > wrote:
>> On Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:39:05 -0400, Bryan Martin wrote:
>>> The Great Lakes have a big problem with zebra mussels,

(snip)

>> The effect being...?
>
(-ppity snip)

ISTR they are also a nuisance in cooling systems such
> as
> those used for nuclear power plants.

Yes, they're quickly becoming a terrific problem for cities that drop a
pipe into the river to draw drinking water. They're tiny and have very
sharp-edged shells, and apparently glue to rival the toughest barnacle.
With no natural enemies, they've completely choked off water intake
systems and also eat up all the food for less aggressive native species.

And even a fishing boat with a gallon or two of bilge or a bait bucket
filled at the last lake can carry the damn things to a new waterway
several states away.

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Sep 1, 4:36*pm, Gezellig > wrote:
> Who determines where you can or cannot land one?

Currently it is kind of open ended. If its a private lake you
obviously need the owners permission. If its a public water there may
be local restrictions to prevent you from landing there (like a
drinking water reservior). I did seaplane flying in several states and
still do so on the gulf coast. Common sense has a lot to do with where
you go and where to avoid. Aside from the blatant and/or obvious, a
casual question to the local FSDO may be of benefit. But, the FSDO is
often submerged with people who don't know their ass from a hole in
the ground and can be more of a hinderance than help.
Probably the best place is to check with any local seaplane operators?
They will be up to speed on where to go or not and what kind of
problems you may encounter.
I had a delightful hour in a homebuilt seaplane up in northern
Minnesota a couple years back landing on several of the many lakes
available there. Here on the gulf coast we land on any number of
rivers and a few lakes. Most of the lakes are water sources so we
avoid them. As others have said, watrer pollution is a problem with
boaters and jetskis but let an airplane land and they will point a
finger at you as the root cause!
Have fun while you can. Aviation is getting more and more restrictive
each year and here in the USA we have the most liberal flight laws in
the world.
Cheers
Ol S&B - flying and instructing in seaplanes since 1967

[Gezellig]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 09:53:45 -0700 (PDT), Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

> I did seaplane flying in several states and
> still do so on the gulf coast

I'm in SW FL, any knowledge of this area (from Tampa to Everglades
City)?