Enlistment of skilled personel

[Steven Wagner]

Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer programmers,
enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but would
they have to go through the entire course of technical training that somebody
with no experience in the skill would have to go through?

Thanks.

[Alan Minyard]

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 16:55:40 GMT, (Steven Wagner) wrote:

>Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
>translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer programmers,
>enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but would
>they have to go through the entire course of technical training that somebody
>with no experience in the skill would have to go through?
>
>Thanks.
>
You have to learn to do it the AIR FORCE WAY!!!!!!

Al Minyard

[D. Strang]

Yes. Everyone becomes an 1-level student out of Basic. Some with experience,
or high aptitude scores, are allowed to self-pace and graduate early.

When you arrive at your first base, you will be an apprentice, and however fast
you want to go to journeyman is up to you. Everyone is given 1 year, I seem
to recall. You have to be 95% complete on your skills training, and have taken
a written test. They called apprentice's 3-level's and journeymen were 5-levels.
When you make NCO status, you usually are skilled enough to be a supervisor,
and they call that a 7-level. The little screw-drivers you see clipped to the
fatigue pockets, are called 7-level screwdrivers :-)

With self-pace, you can be out of tech school pretty fast, but tech school is
usually 36 weeks of party-time and lustful frolic, that I can't imagine anyone
wanting to end it early...

Unless you are poor, I wouldn't recommend enlisting. You really want to be
an officer in today's military. Trust me, I was both, and being enlisted anything,
is like being a 12 year old for life. No respect.

"Steven Wagner" > wrote
> Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
> translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer programmers,
> enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but would
> they have to go through the entire course of technical training that somebody
> with no experience in the skill would have to go through?

[Vaughn]

"D. Strang" > wrote in message
news:_SK7c.127$zc1.118@okepread03...
> With self-pace, you can be out of tech school pretty fast, but tech school
is
> usually 36 weeks of party-time and lustful frolic, that I can't imagine
anyone
> wanting to end it early...

Yes! And not only that... There is no such thing as a school where
you do not learn something. You are mortgaging part of your life for that
military education, don't let them get off cheap. Even at 18, I was smart
enough to pass up the accelerated deal. Smart, but naive...

>
> Unless you are poor, I wouldn't recommend enlisting. You really want to
be
> an officer in today's military. Trust me, I was both, and being enlisted
anything,
> is like being a 12 year old for life. No respect.

Yes again! I joined the Navy naively thinking that I would "work my
way up to officer" and make a career out of it. It was a full two years
before I fathomed the social distinction between an officer and an enlisted
man. Ever having been enlisted taints you for life and makes you a
second-class sub-human. Yes, there are respected "mustangs" who make the
jump from enlisted to officer status, but they are seen as limited
specialists and rarely progress much past O3.

Vaughn

[Greasy Rider]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:27:53 GMT, "Vaughn"
> disturbed the phosphur particles
on my screen with the following:

>
> Yes again! I joined the Navy naively thinking that I would "work my
>way up to officer" and make a career out of it. It was a full two years
>before I fathomed the social distinction between an officer and an enlisted
>man. Ever having been enlisted taints you for life and makes you a
>second-class sub-human.

I'll never forget a squadron announcement posted one day in 1958:

"Officers and their ladies , enlisted men and their wives
are invited to the squadron party this weekend."




Enlisted men couldn't possibly marry ladies.
No enlisted men showed up......

[Leadfoot]

"Greasy Rider" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 00:27:53 GMT, "Vaughn"
> > disturbed the phosphur particles
> on my screen with the following:
>
> >
> > Yes again! I joined the Navy naively thinking that I would "work my
> >way up to officer" and make a career out of it. It was a full two years
> >before I fathomed the social distinction between an officer and an
enlisted
> >man. Ever having been enlisted taints you for life and makes you a
> >second-class sub-human.
>
> I'll never forget a squadron announcement posted one day in 1958:
>
> "Officers and their ladies , enlisted men and their wives
> are invited to the squadron party this weekend."
>
>
>
>
> Enlisted men couldn't possibly marry ladies.
> No enlisted men showed up......

I didn't join til '75 but I understand back then they issued wives to
enlisted men, something about getting the CO's permission.

[Dweezil Dwarftosser]

Steven Wagner wrote:
>
> Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
> translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer programmers,
> enlist?

It depends whether or not they are found qualified
for their desired field. A civilian mechanic would
surely score high enough to be used in that capacity
- but a programmer might not be well versed in electronics
(which is the area from which programmers are selected,
if they can be spared from their warskill electronics
AFSC). Aside from common elements of electronics which
everyone should have learned in a high school physical
science course, the surprise is that excellent spacial
relations - mental "eyeball" geometry - are absolutely
essential qualities for entry into the upper echelons of
USAF electronics fields (which, as I have said, include
programming as a minor, but related, element).

There are a few places for windows wizards and networking
gurus, of course - but these are essentially administrative-
maintenance slots, often filled by on-base glad-handers
seeking a break from flightline duties.

If you can determine what a number of very oddly-shaped
boxes would look like - if unfolded flat - you might
qualify.

> I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but
> would they have to go through the entire course of technical
> training that somebody with no experience in the skill would have
> to go through?

You really wouldn't want to skip through tech school. Classes
six hours per day, (for up to a year) with the rest of the time
essentially free; the college grads among the guys with which
I atttended compared it very favorably with their carefree days
at school: lots of beer and free time.

Though drafted during the Tet offensive, I ended up in the USAF,
committed to an "electronics" career. Coming out of Basic Training,
the orders read "Armament Systems Operator/Maintenance (Pool)":
I would be a 32010 unskilled "helper" while I attended tech school.

Fortunately, I ended up in the very first AN/APQ-120 Weapons Control
Systems class anywhere; it was the system used on the (then) brand-
new F-4E aircraft. One of the eight in my class had worked for
McDonnel-Douglas as a civilian, installing and aligning the older
AN/AWG-10 systems in Navy F-4s. He skipped the electronics
fundamentals portions (about four months of training) and flunked out
shortly before graduating. (Lucky for him, they kept him on at
Lowry AFB anyway - maintaining the trainers on midnight shift. He
thus avoided the Vietnam war.)

Almost a year later, we graduated as 32231Q "semi-skilled" WCS
troops. We thought we knew it all. Instead, we knew very little.

Check out section 3.a ("knowledge requirements") for a fully-
qualified 7-level technician from about a hundred years ago (1982):
http://www.geocities.com/32271q/afsc.htm

A number of these guys chose to do their "guaranteed year in the
states" (between overseas tours) as 305X0 Computer Programmers,
instead of staying current on the weapons system. Since we were
a "Chronic, critical-shortage CONUS/OVERSEAS imbalance" AFSC,
the USAF permitted such a 365-day "break" between the overseas
tours.

Today, the AFSC numbers have been changed, as have the aircraft
systems - but there is no shortcut to success. Besides - Uncle
Sam may know that you are actually more qualified for a different
role - other than the one you chose in civilian life... and if
my experience is any guide, Uncle is rarely wrong in this. You
may find a whole new career, which actually uses ALL of your hidden
talents.

- John T., former Msgt, USAF, WCS

[John Hairell]

On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:43:52 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:

[stuff snipped]
>
>Unless you are poor, I wouldn't recommend enlisting. You really want to be
>an officer in today's military. Trust me, I was both, and being enlisted anything,
>is like being a 12 year old for life. No respect.
>

And your C.O. acts like they are your daddy, mommy, and school
principal all rolled into one.

John Hairell

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 11:31:16 -0500, John Hairell >
wrote:

>On Mon, 22 Mar 2004 17:43:52 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:
>
>[stuff snipped]
>>
>>Unless you are poor, I wouldn't recommend enlisting. You really want to be
>>an officer in today's military. Trust me, I was both, and being enlisted anything,
>>is like being a 12 year old for life. No respect.
>>
>
>And your C.O. acts like they are your daddy, mommy, and school
>principal all rolled into one.
>
>John Hairell

Amazing. First, we've got an enlisted person who became an officer who
characterizes the treatment of enlisted personnel as "like being a
12-year old". Clearly the perception is the reality, but I wonder how
someone who rose through the ranks could perpetuate the stereotype.
Did you continue, as an officer, to treat your personnel as you
perceived you were treated? Or, is it possible that there are some
officers (I'll contend a lot of them,) who respect their subordinates,
depend upon them for support and value their expertise?

And, then, we've got another stereotype--the C.O. who acts like
"daddy, mommy and school principal". Well, certainly there are
instances in which the age of the commander and the youth (and
concommitant immaturity) of the lower ranking enlisted merits such
treatment. But to extend the metaphor to establish the standard is
patently absurd.

Let's acknowledge first, that most C.O.s deal through chain of
command. Their attitudes, information, and reactions are filtered
through levels of junior officers and NCOs. There are some
organizations in which the C.O. does deal with the lowest ranks, but
in most units, there are several levels. Or, maybe you didn't mean
C.O., but rather simply meant "supervisor"--then you've still got to
deal with different ages, levels of maturity, and degrees of technical
expertise.

"Daddy, mommy and school principal" are responsible for enforcing
discipline and achieving results whether in the military or the family
or corporate America. If required, that's sometime the way it is. But,
in most successful organization respect is a two-way street. Show me a
unit which routinely demeans the enlisted personnel without respect
for their capabilities and I'll show you a failed unit.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[D. Strang]

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote
>
> Amazing. First, we've got an enlisted person who became an officer who
> characterizes the treatment of enlisted personnel as "like being a
> 12-year old".

I should have said that this treatment mostly comes from higher-rank
enlisted personnel. The reason I wanted to become an officer, was
because of several role models (we'd call them mentors today). One
was a Major, another was a Captain. During my first combat tour, I
was basically fearless. I found that most of the people who got killed
were always doing the wrong thing. The Captain told me I had the
right instincts, in that when it looks like you are going to die, then the
best thing to do is attack. If you circle the wagons (go defense), you
die. The enemy has the coordinates of people standing still :-)

> Clearly the perception is the reality, but I wonder how
> someone who rose through the ranks could perpetuate the stereotype.
> Did you continue, as an officer, to treat your personnel as you
> perceived you were treated?

One of the first things I learned (it wasn't obvious), was that you end
up mothering your men. The object is to get them through their tour.
There's always one guy who has the IQ of a turd, and these guys are
always popular. You have to really brow-beat the men and find ways
to get their attention. Especially after losing five or six guys in one
battle. They are either very depressed, or very ****ed off, and it takes
constant commands to focus the battle. If you're lucky you have at
least one NCO, who is meaner than you could ever be.

My experience as an enlisted man was very bad (outside of combat).
When you are in the states or some overseas cesspool, just putting in
time, then everyone wants a piece of you for slave labor. I was once
grabbed off the street, and found myself unloading railroad cars. We
had a couple radar troops with us. They felt they were just slaves.
You would never find officers doing that kind of work. But you
would find college graduate highly technical specialists just cannabolized
for the body count. We broke a lot of stuff just to get even.

> Or, is it possible that there are some
> officers (I'll contend a lot of them,) who respect their subordinates,
> depend upon them for support and value their expertise?

It all makes sense until you see the daily detail list. E-7's driving bus,
E-8 inventory the clothing store, E-5 waxing the bowling alley, etc.
Then you go to your real job.

> And, then, we've got another stereotype--the C.O. who acts like
> "daddy, mommy and school principal". Well, certainly there are
> instances in which the age of the commander and the youth (and
> concommitant immaturity) of the lower ranking enlisted merits such
> treatment. But to extend the metaphor to establish the standard is
> patently absurd.

During my commanders welcome meeting in his office, we all sat at
his table and told him he had a terrible moral problem. I wasn't there
a week, and I found the place a disaster. He looked us square in the
face and said he will make sure all of us would wish we were never
born, jumped-up and yelled to get the hell out of his office. He
lasted another month before the Colonel got rid of him, but the
damage was done, and we were just enlisted people, so suck it up.

> Let's acknowledge first, that most C.O.s deal through chain of
> command. Their attitudes, information, and reactions are filtered
> through levels of junior officers and NCOs. There are some
> organizations in which the C.O. does deal with the lowest ranks, but
> in most units, there are several levels. Or, maybe you didn't mean
> C.O., but rather simply meant "supervisor"--then you've still got to
> deal with different ages, levels of maturity, and degrees of technical
> expertise.

In my example above, the higher enlisted ranks were almost never to
be found. The commander had no eyes and ears. I agree with you
on this.

> Show me a
> unit which routinely demeans the enlisted personnel without respect
> for their capabilities and I'll show you a failed unit.

All I have to do is go into a squadron and look at the detail list, or watch
all the enlisted troops picking up trash with their garbage bags dragging
behind them to know that nothing has changed.

[Pete]

"D. Strang" > wrote in message
news:0C38c.473$zc1.37@okepread03...
> "Ed Rasimus" > wrote
> >
> One of the first things I learned (it wasn't obvious), was that you end
> up mothering your men. The object is to get them through their tour.
> There's always one guy who has the IQ of a turd, and these guys are
> always popular. You have to really brow-beat the men and find ways
> to get their attention. Especially after losing five or six guys in one
> battle. They are either very depressed, or very ****ed off, and it takes
> constant commands to focus the battle. If you're lucky you have at
> least one NCO, who is meaner than you could ever be.
>
> My experience as an enlisted man was very bad (outside of combat).
> When you are in the states or some overseas cesspool, just putting in
> time, then everyone wants a piece of you for slave labor. I was once
> grabbed off the street, and found myself unloading railroad cars. We
> had a couple radar troops with us. They felt they were just slaves.
> You would never find officers doing that kind of work. But you
> would find college graduate highly technical specialists just cannabolized
> for the body count. We broke a lot of stuff just to get even.

My experience, at many bases between 1976 and 1997, was completely
different.

> > Or, is it possible that there are some
> > officers (I'll contend a lot of them,) who respect their subordinates,
> > depend upon them for support and value their expertise?
>
> It all makes sense until you see the daily detail list. E-7's driving
bus,
> E-8 inventory the clothing store, E-5 waxing the bowling alley, etc.
> Then you go to your real job.

Amazingly, in 20 years, I never did (or saw) anything remotely like that.

Details?
Extra duty and training for EDM (RAF Upper Heyford)
Veterans Day parade in Albany NY (Griffiss AFB)
Extra standby duty to unload cargo A/C (Hill AFB)
Tutor for a marginal airman who was failing his CDC/OJT requirements
(Ramstein AB)
Volunteered to outprocess and drive to the airport an airman who was getting
kicked out (Ramstein AB)
Cleanup and final lookaround after the airshow crash at Ramstein

Never did anything like what you report, nor did anyone else I worked with.
I guess flightline personnel were already too overworked to be tasked for
bowling alley waxing.

Of course, other career fields did have other, weird, extra duties. Finance
and CBPO personnel tasked as aux SP's, for instance. Dangerous fools.

But...
The bowling alley had their own civilians for waxing.
The clothing store had their own civilians for inventory.
Transpotation SQ handled the bus driving duties.

Now...if you were at a remote base somewhere, with limited civilian
personnel...things may be different.

> During my commanders welcome meeting in his office, we all sat at
> his table and told him he had a terrible moral problem. I wasn't there
> a week, and I found the place a disaster. He looked us square in the
> face and said he will make sure all of us would wish we were never
> born, jumped-up and yelled to get the hell out of his office. He
> lasted another month before the Colonel got rid of him, but the
> damage was done, and we were just enlisted people, so suck it up.

Bad commanders exist. Eventually, they either leave or change. Bad managers
in cubeland exist. And they are harder to get rid of.

>
> > Let's acknowledge first, that most C.O.s deal through chain of
> > command. Their attitudes, information, and reactions are filtered
> > through levels of junior officers and NCOs. There are some
> > organizations in which the C.O. does deal with the lowest ranks, but
> > in most units, there are several levels. Or, maybe you didn't mean
> > C.O., but rather simply meant "supervisor"--then you've still got to
> > deal with different ages, levels of maturity, and degrees of technical
> > expertise.
>
> In my example above, the higher enlisted ranks were almost never to
> be found. The commander had no eyes and ears. I agree with you
> on this.

"I need 5 guys for ...."
Are you, as the NCOIC or OIC going to go? Or do you get 5 airmen?

>
> All I have to do is go into a squadron and look at the detail list, or
watch
> all the enlisted troops picking up trash with their garbage bags dragging
> behind them to know that nothing has changed.

Sure, some guys get tasked to police up an area. But it isn't nearly as
common (in recent years) as you make it out to be.

Pete

[Ed Rasimus]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 17:19:21 -0600, "D. Strang"
> wrote:

>All I have to do is go into a squadron and look at the detail list, or watch
>all the enlisted troops picking up trash with their garbage bags dragging
>behind them to know that nothing has changed.
>

I don't know where and when you served, but clearly you've got a
wealth of experiences. I can only say that during my 23 years with the
company I seldom saw that sort of thing going on. That included
stateside TAC and ATC (plus MAJCOM), PACAF two tours in combat ops,
and USAFE (operational and Hq).

Throughout, there was mutual respect for the support troops and high
morale. Long hours and harsh working conditions occasionally, but
there was always a strong sense of mission and a keen awareness that
it was the whole team that made it happen.

My final tour on active duty was Air Liaison Officer with the 4th ID
(mech), where I got some insight into Army operations. The differences
in numbers (and hence ratios) of officer to enlisted were very
apparent. Clearly there was more room for the sort of thing you
describe on the green side of the house, but the successful units
maintained the same sort of relationships that I saw on the blue side.

The days of traditional European conscript (18th/19th Century) "rank &
file" versus officer corps--"keep a stiff upper lip" seem pretty much
over.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Pete]

"Steven Wagner" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
> translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer
programmers,
> enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but
would
> they have to go through the entire course of technical training that
somebody
> with no experience in the skill would have to go through?

Yes. Nowadays, tech school is like extended Basic. You're still learning how
to be in the USAF, along with the bare bones basics of your future job..
Along with how the AF does things, from a/c maintenance to programming.

Of which I did both.

There used to be a thing known as Direct Duty Assignment, but evidently the
last person to do such graduated BMT in March 1994.

"17 Mar 94
As a part of the Year of Training initiative, all new recruits hd to attend
technical training school immediately following basic military training. The
last recruit to bypass technical training and receive a direct duty
assignment graduated from BMT on this date"

http://www.aetc.randolph.af.mil/ho/atc90s.htm

Pete

[Michael Wise]

In article >,
"Pete" > wrote:

> > Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
> > translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer
> programmers,
> > enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but
> would
> > they have to go through the entire course of technical training that
> somebody
> > with no experience in the skill would have to go through?
>
> Yes. Nowadays, tech school is like extended Basic. You're still learning how
> to be in the USAF, along with the bare bones basics of your future job..
> Along with how the AF does things, from a/c maintenance to programming.
>
> Of which I did both.
>
> There used to be a thing known as Direct Duty Assignment, but evidently the
> last person to do such graduated BMT in March 1994.


What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?
Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0

--Mike

[Pete]

"Michael Wise" > wrote
>
>
> What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?

I googled for "Direct Duty Assignment" and found a few references. Mostly
admin type jobs, it seems. A few skill jobs, like in CE.
http://www.afrc.af.mil/908aw/ccmbio.htm
"..graduated from Basic Training at Lackland AFB and received a direct duty
assignment to the 306 Civil Engineering Squadron, McCoy AFB, Florida, and
was assigned to the pavements section."

> Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
> ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0

An Army 11B *is* a skill to be learned. More than just walking around in the
woods with a gun.

Pete

[Michael Wise]

In article >,
"Pete" > wrote:

> > What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?
>
> I googled for "Direct Duty Assignment" and found a few references. Mostly
> admin type jobs, it seems. A few skill jobs, like in CE.
> http://www.afrc.af.mil/908aw/ccmbio.htm
> "..graduated from Basic Training at Lackland AFB and received a direct duty
> assignment to the 306 Civil Engineering Squadron, McCoy AFB, Florida, and
> was assigned to the pavements section."
>
> > Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
> > ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0
>
> An Army 11B *is* a skill to be learned. More than just walking around in the
> woods with a gun.


That's why they get at least some schooling.


--Mike

[D. Strang]

"Michael Wise" > wrote
>
> What jobs does the AF have which require no schooling after boot camp?
> Even grunts have schooling after basic. It must be equivalent to the
> ubiquitious USN Buffer Tech rating. ; 0

There used to be a field for vehicle operators. Today it's just an additional
duty.

[Greasy Rider]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2004 10:20:41 -0700, Ed Rasimus
> disturbed the phosphur particles on my
screen with the following:


> Show me a unit which routinely demeans the enlisted personnel without respect
>for their capabilities and I'll show you a failed unit.

Fighter Squadron 33, Naval Air Station, Oceana, Virginia 1958.

[Tex Houston]

"Steven Wagner" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
> Does anybody know what the USAF tends to do when people with a directly
> translatable skill, i.e. civilian aircraft mechanics or computer
programmers,
> enlist? I expect that they would have to go through basic training, but
would
> they have to go through the entire course of technical training that
somebody
> with no experience in the skill would have to go through?
>
> Thanks.

I do not know the current practice but when I enlisted in the USAF in 1955 I
made sure I took some documentation of a skill with me. I did not qualify
for the USAF tech school but was offered a chance to take a Bypass Test,
scored a record score and was awarded a three level AFSC during basic
training.

This also cost me extra weeks at Sampson AFB as they had to request an
assignment for me as the normal ones were for airmen going to Tech School or
directed OJT slots. They had nothing for people graduating with a skill.

Regards,

Tex

[OXMORON1]

Once upon a time in the blurry past, I had a young man working for me who had
completed apprenticeship training as an asbestos worker (read "insulator"),
really skilled, leader of men, I trusted him wiyj 20 man crews $400,000
(equivalent to $5 plus million in today's market) projects then. Really good
troop! He knew his draft number was coming so he enlistedm "with civilian
acquired skill". Army tried to make him a cook, AF tried to make him an AP,
Navy at least put him in steam power, reasonably close to his civilian learned
skill.
He finally retired from the Naval Reserve as a Commander some twenty three
years later.
Needs of the service, ya know.

Rick
MFE
N1535