Instructor Effectiveness

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
> get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
> normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
> who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
> out in the field when they go operational.
> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
> step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> student learning.
> Should be interesting to discuss.
> Ol S&B
> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

I think you might be "leaning" a bit too far into the "touchy/feeley"
description to express what you consider not your way of doing things
there Rocky :-) If the hard approach including cussing in the cockpit
works for you, so be it, but you'll have a REAL hard time convincing me
that this is a good teaching technique.
I can assure you I'm far from being a Pansy in the cockpit, and I cal
state emphatically that cursing in the cockpit is NOT one of my teaching
techniques.
The proper use of praise and criticism are an integral part of ANY good
accepted flight instruction technique. I've been teaching this way all
through my career with no problems whatsoever. I also teach instructors
to teach this way with no problems.
We've all had one of these "cussing" CFI's at one time or another. If
that's your cup of tea, by all means do it that way. In my opinion it's
not necessary and not even advisable to teach this way, but that's just me.
You asked for an opinion, this is mine. Sorry; no disrespect intended,
but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
problem :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 12, 1:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?


Hopefully you can find a middle ground. I realized early that the
first thing an instructor needs is respect. That starts from the
moment you approach the student. I almost only work with owners and
not part of an FBO. However, I always wear business attire, I never
teach in shorts, jeans, etc. That just sets the stage. You want to act
professionally. Don't curse when you can use more intelligent words,
give thoughtful reasons for what you are doing, don't just say 'that's
the way you have to do it'. It can be difficult to be professional
when you are too touchy-feely. However, most people are happy that the
old school gruff instructors are all retired. I think you have to find
a middle ground. Also, you want to tailor to the student you are
working with. I tend to lean towards being "all business" but I found
that you really need to first approach your student with "how are you
doing? how's your day going" small talk. You need to be somewhat
personal.

-Robert, CFII

[[email protected]]

On Sep 12, 2:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
> get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
> normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
> who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
> out in the field when they go operational.
> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
> step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> student learning.
> Should be interesting to discuss.
> Ol S&B
> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

The type of student should affect the Instructor's teaching
style more than anything. To be nothing but gracious and gentle is to
ask for trouble from the arrogant know-it-all, and to be an abrasive,
critical and noisy instructor is only going to lose many of the
students. Maybe all of them.
I've had students who lacked confidence or had irrational
fears, so going easy on them at first and working them harder as they
got the hang of it worked for me. Some needed to be told frequently
that they were progressing OK. The student who already knew it all, or
who had no respect for authority, had to be worked very hard until he
got the idea that he really didn't know it all like he thought he did.
If he had anti-authority problems, he might need to be told to go
elsewhere and bust someone else's rules and airplanes.

Dan

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Sep 12, 3:28*pm, wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> > touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> > Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
> > Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
> > Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
> > get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
> > normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
> > who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
> > out in the field when they go operational.
> > What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
> > explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
> > who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
> > spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
> > Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
> > year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
> > step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
> > satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
> > Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> > student learning.
> > Should be interesting to discuss.
> > Ol S&B
> > CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
>
> * * * *The type of student should affect the Instructor's teaching
> style more than anything. To be nothing but gracious and gentle is to
> ask for trouble from the arrogant know-it-all, and to be an abrasive,
> critical and noisy instructor is only going to lose many of the
> students. Maybe all of them.
> * * * * *I've had students who lacked confidence or had irrational
> fears, so going easy on them at first and working them harder as they
> got the hang of it worked for me. Some needed to be told frequently
> that they were progressing OK. The student who already knew it all, or
> who had no respect for authority, had to be worked very hard until he
> got the idea that he really didn't know it all like he thought he did.
> If he had anti-authority problems, he might need to be told to go
> elsewhere and bust someone else's rules and airplanes.
>
> * * * * *Dan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Dan
Couldn't say it better!
Cheers
Ol S&B

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Sep 12, 3:18*pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> > touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> > Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
> > Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
> > Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
> > get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
> > normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
> > who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
> > out in the field when they go operational.
> > What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
> > explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
> > who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
> > spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
> > Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
> > year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
> > step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
> > satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
> > Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> > student learning.
> > Should be interesting to discuss.
> > Ol S&B
> > CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
>
> I think you might be "leaning" a bit too far into the "touchy/feeley"
> description to express what you consider not your way of doing things
> there Rocky :-) If the hard approach including cussing in the cockpit
> works for you, so be it, but you'll have a REAL hard time convincing me
> that this is a good teaching technique.
> I can assure you I'm far from being a Pansy in the cockpit, and I cal
> state emphatically that cursing in the cockpit is NOT one of my teaching
> techniques.
> The proper use of praise and criticism are an integral part of ANY good
> accepted flight instruction technique. I've been teaching this way all
> through my career with no problems whatsoever. I also teach instructors
> to teach this way with no problems.
> We've all had one of these "cussing" CFI's at one time or another. If
> that's your cup of tea, by all means do it that way. In my opinion it's
> not necessary and not even advisable to teach this way, but that's just me.
> You asked for an opinion, this is mine. Sorry; no disrespect intended,
> but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
> student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
> problem :-))
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Dudley
Can you honestly say you have never ever said "What the fu*& is going
on here?" or some variation of that theme?
Of course if it is in every statement it degrades what is being said.
I recall an instructor that could not say anything without profanity
and that colored my approach and awareness of how much it detracts
from effective instruction. OTOH, saying "Inshallah" on final is not
always workable either? <g>
I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.
Even then, after the fact we can discuss it but in the heat of the
moment we may not have time to discuss the relative merits of profane
outbursts like WTF are you doing? Or watch your f**8 altitude, or
whatever.
I love to use english at its ultimate but often find in the heat of
the moment, profanity is much more effective and timely.
You know how us Marines are.....
Cheers
Rocky

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
> On Sep 12, 3:18 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
>>> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
>>> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
>>> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
>>> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
>>> get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
>>> normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
>>> who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
>>> out in the field when they go operational.
>>> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
>>> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
>>> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
>>> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
>>> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
>>> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
>>> step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
>>> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
>>> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
>>> student learning.
>>> Should be interesting to discuss.
>>> Ol S&B
>>> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
>> I think you might be "leaning" a bit too far into the "touchy/feeley"
>> description to express what you consider not your way of doing things
>> there Rocky :-) If the hard approach including cussing in the cockpit
>> works for you, so be it, but you'll have a REAL hard time convincing me
>> that this is a good teaching technique.
>> I can assure you I'm far from being a Pansy in the cockpit, and I cal
>> state emphatically that cursing in the cockpit is NOT one of my teaching
>> techniques.
>> The proper use of praise and criticism are an integral part of ANY good
>> accepted flight instruction technique. I've been teaching this way all
>> through my career with no problems whatsoever. I also teach instructors
>> to teach this way with no problems.
>> We've all had one of these "cussing" CFI's at one time or another. If
>> that's your cup of tea, by all means do it that way. In my opinion it's
>> not necessary and not even advisable to teach this way, but that's just me.
>> You asked for an opinion, this is mine. Sorry; no disrespect intended,
>> but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
>> student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
>> problem :-))
>>
>> --
>> Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Dudley
> Can you honestly say you have never ever said "What the fu*& is going
> on here?" or some variation of that theme?
> Of course if it is in every statement it degrades what is being said.
> I recall an instructor that could not say anything without profanity
> and that colored my approach and awareness of how much it detracts
> from effective instruction. OTOH, saying "Inshallah" on final is not
> always workable either? <g>
> I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
> think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
> offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.
> Even then, after the fact we can discuss it but in the heat of the
> moment we may not have time to discuss the relative merits of profane
> outbursts like WTF are you doing? Or watch your f**8 altitude, or
> whatever.
> I love to use english at its ultimate but often find in the heat of
> the moment, profanity is much more effective and timely.
> You know how us Marines are.....
> Cheers
> Rocky
Yes, I can honestly and truthfully say that. In fact, I'm so much
against this procedure that I made it a point to address it with every
instructor I taught personally and at every seminar I ever gave that
involved instructors.

The military used the "corporal" teaching approach during WW2 with some
success but their program was time management based with results
demanded within a specific time frame or failure indicated. It is
noteworthy that the washout rate using this method was extremely high
and anticipated to be extremely high.

I can think of no authoritative source in the entire industry that even
comes close to recommending your suggested method as a viable teaching
tool. If I am mistaken in this, please advise me and I will stand corrected.

I'm not trying to be overly critical here Rocky. As another instructor
has said, you use whatever works for you with a specific student. I have
no problem with this premise at all. I also have never once, and I
repeat again, never once, EVER had a student who I felt would be more
responsive to a teaching method that including cussing at a student or
teaching a student in any other way but a calm, precise, and totally
professional manner.

Now all this having been said, I will tell you that I have been by
MYSELF in an airplane several times during my career when I have shouted
to myself, "Jesus H Christ Almightly.....WHAT the **** was THAT!!! :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

[f-newguy]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?

I've had both. I found the "what in hell was that all about?" approach more
effective for me.

Instructors that are too nice may leave the student unaware of how vital it
is to perform with precision as a pilot. This is serious business. Your
life depends upon it.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

f-newguy wrote:
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
>> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
>> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
>
> I've had both. I found the "what in hell was that all about?" approach more
> effective for me.
>
> Instructors that are too nice may leave the student unaware of how vital it
> is to perform with precision as a pilot. This is serious business. Your
> life depends upon it.
>
>
It's important to note that not cursing at a student is not to be
misconstrued into meaning that an instructor is being "too nice".
The way this issue has been presented by the original poster would infer
that through the use of his description countering his argument in favor
of his personal method. Instructors NOT cursing at students are
absolutely NOT being "too nice" by NOT cursing at students! This premise
if assumed is false.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 12, 1:57*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:

> I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
> think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
> offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.

I try to explain this to my kids. People don't mind if their plumber
shows up in a dirty tee shirt and with a dirty mouth because he's a
plumber. Now imagine if you walked into your Dr's office and your Dr
had on a dirty tee shirt and had a dirty mouth. People look at how
people present themselves and decide how educated and competent they
are for the job. This is why airline pilots wear silly hats and boards
on their shoulders. When you act like a plumber with your students
they will question whether or not they really want a plumber showing
them how to fly.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 12, 3:31*pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:

> It's important to note that not cursing at a student is not to be
> misconstrued into meaning that an instructor is being "too nice".
> The way this issue has been presented by the original poster would infer
> that through the use of his description countering his argument in favor
> of his personal method. Instructors NOT cursing at students are
> absolutely NOT being "too nice" by NOT cursing at students! This premise
> if assumed is false.

I've also had instructors and examiners who would hit you on the hand
or shoulder when they didn't like something you were doing. Aside from
rubbing close shoulders there is no reason to touch your students in
the cockpit.

-Robert, CFII

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 12, 7:44*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> On Sep 12, 1:57*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
> > I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
> > think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
> > offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.
>
> I try to explain this to my kids. People don't mind if their plumber
> shows up in a dirty tee shirt and with a dirty mouth because he's a
> plumber. Now imagine if you walked into your Dr's office and your Dr
> had on a dirty tee shirt and had a dirty mouth. People look at how
> people present themselves and decide how educated and competent they
> are for the job. This is why airline pilots wear silly hats and boards
> on their shoulders. When you act like a plumber with your students
> they will question whether or not they really want a plumber showing
> them how to fly.
>
> -Robert

Speaking of language and hobbies --- I played golf with a minister not
so long ago, and asked him after he made a bad stroke how he restrains
himself from expressing himself the way some of us do. He said there
is plenty of scripture he can quite that fits golf (and I'm thinking
flight instruction) quite nicely.

I would point out that calling someone an 'anal sphincter' is a
classy way of expressing your opinion.

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Sep 12, 3:31 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
>> It's important to note that not cursing at a student is not to be
>> misconstrued into meaning that an instructor is being "too nice".
>> The way this issue has been presented by the original poster would infer
>> that through the use of his description countering his argument in favor
>> of his personal method. Instructors NOT cursing at students are
>> absolutely NOT being "too nice" by NOT cursing at students! This premise
>> if assumed is false.
>
> I've also had instructors and examiners who would hit you on the hand
> or shoulder when they didn't like something you were doing. Aside from
> rubbing close shoulders there is no reason to touch your students in
> the cockpit.
>
> -Robert, CFII

I agree. My preferred method is to gauge the way I project with a
student based on my read on that specific student's ability to receive
what I'm projecting and the tone with which I'm projecting it.
This method of controlling "tone" is very important in the teaching
cockpit, as the "classroom" is moving and all instruction is being given
while this dynamic environment is on going.
It's fine to upscale the tone of a verbal exchange with a student to
stress necessity and/or a time constraint, but this raising of the
"tone" by the instructor should never in my opinion cross the line that
separates the need for action from abuse. Shouting and/or cursing at a
student in the cockpit in my opinion adds to the student's stress level
and degrades their performance.
What I'm stressing here is that not cursing at a student goes MUCH
further than the respect issue. It's actually a quality of instruction
issue and as such I place it high on the list of things that instructors
should learn to do correctly.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 12, 5:01*pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:

> What I'm stressing here is that not cursing at a student goes MUCH
> further than the respect issue. It's actually a quality of instruction
> issue and as such I place it high on the list of things that instructors
> should learn to do correctly.

Generally agreed, but I would argue that you can't have quality of
instruction without respect.

-Robert

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Sep 12, 5:01 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
>> What I'm stressing here is that not cursing at a student goes MUCH
>> further than the respect issue. It's actually a quality of instruction
>> issue and as such I place it high on the list of things that instructors
>> should learn to do correctly.
>
> Generally agreed, but I would argue that you can't have quality of
> instruction without respect.
>
> -Robert

I agree, and I would counter that you don't have to shout or curse at a
student to gain that respect. In fact, with most students, that is
EXACTLY the fastest way to LOSE that respect.
Most students want their instructors to be thorough, concise,
knowledgeable, friendly, and above all, professional at all times.
Achieving this relationship with a student can easily be done without
being a "pussy", while on the other hand, shouting and cursing at a
student negates enough of the prime good teaching requisites I've
mentioned to eliminate these two factors from any competent instruction
method and classify them as a negative.

--
Dudley Henriques

[buttman]

On Sep 12, 2:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
> get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
> normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
> who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
> out in the field when they go operational.
> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
> step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> student learning.
> Should be interesting to discuss.
> Ol S&B
> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.

Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
(in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
problems, I wish he would just shut up"

[a[_3_]]

On Sep 12, 8:38*pm, buttman > wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
>
>
> > Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> > touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> > Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
> > Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
> > Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
> > get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
> > normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
> > who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
> > out in the field when they go operational.
> > What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
> > explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
> > who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
> > spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
> > Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
> > year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
> > step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
> > satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
> > Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> > student learning.
> > Should be interesting to discuss.
> > Ol S&B
> > CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
>
> I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
> know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
> themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
> bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
> constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
> frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.
>
> Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
> You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
> being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
> themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
> they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
> the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
> like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
> (in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
> problems, I wish he would just shut up"

The other alternative for a student is much more effective: "You're
fired." It is not used enough,not just with CFIs but with MDs and
others

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

buttman wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2:01 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
>> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
>> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
>> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
>> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
>> get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
>> normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
>> who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
>> out in the field when they go operational.
>> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
>> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
>> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
>> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
>> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
>> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
>> step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
>> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
>> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
>> student learning.
>> Should be interesting to discuss.
>> Ol S&B
>> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
>
> I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
> know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
> themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
> bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
> constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
> frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.
>
> Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
> You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
> being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
> themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
> they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
> the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
> like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
> (in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
> problems, I wish he would just shut up"

Good post and good input Butts.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

a wrote:
> On Sep 12, 8:38 pm, buttman > wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2:01 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
>>> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
>>> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
>>> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
>>> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
>>> get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
>>> normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
>>> who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
>>> out in the field when they go operational.
>>> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
>>> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
>>> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
>>> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
>>> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
>>> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
>>> step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
>>> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
>>> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
>>> student learning.
>>> Should be interesting to discuss.
>>> Ol S&B
>>> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
>> I have noticed that students typically want to be good pilots. They
>> know when they've made a bad landing, and they are willing to look at
>> themselves critically to improve their skill. If the student makes a
>> bad landing, they don't need me there pounding it into their head
>> constantly. If I were to do that, all I'm doing is making them more
>> frustrated, which is making it harder for them to focus and learn.
>>
>> Also, I think sometimes people confuse "strictness" with "harshness".
>> You can still hold high standards and strive for perfection without
>> being harsh or rude. A lot of less experienced instructors will say to
>> themselves "I want to be an instructor that holds high standards", so
>> they'll go out and just constantly bitch at anything and everything
>> the student does thats less than perfect. Some students will react
>> like "Oh wow I really need to turn it up here", while other students
>> (in my opinion, most students), will respond with "this guy has
>> problems, I wish he would just shut up"
>
> The other alternative for a student is much more effective: "You're
> fired." It is not used enough,not just with CFIs but with MDs and
> others

This is true, and addresses the respect issue. On the quality of
instruction issue, it's incumbent on the instructor to see that this
step is never necessary.

--
Dudley Henriques

[Bob F.[_2_]]

"Dudley Henriques" > wrote in message
...

>
> This is true, and addresses the respect issue. On the quality of
> instruction issue, it's incumbent on the instructor to see that this step
> is never necessary.
>
> --
> Dudley Henriques


I think Dudley is on the right track. I too have thousands of hours of
instruction given and have never said a profane word to a student. I don't
remember seeing this tactic in the Flight Instructor Handbook. I think this
goes beyond instructing and indicates character on the part of the
instructor. One also has to remember that you are representing the
profession. It's not a question of effectiveness. It's a question of doing
the right thing.

--
Regards, Bob F.

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-09-13, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> Most students want their instructors to be thorough, concise,
> knowledgeable, friendly, and above all, professional at all times.

Indeed. Part of that is that the student should feel that the instructor is
competent to keep him out of trouble even if he screws up pretty badly, and
losing your cool is a good way to destroy that confidence. As I begin my
studies toward the CFI-SP rating, I do plan to keep that in mind. Sorry,
but whoever it is that says that cussing at a student is effective does not
have me as an adherent.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

[Gezellig]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 13:01:09 -0700 (PDT), Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> student learning.

The best instructors tailor their temperament to the student and the
situation.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 12, 5:17*pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> I agree, and I would counter that you don't have to shout or curse at a
> student to gain that respect. In fact, with most students, that is
> EXACTLY the fastest way to LOSE that respect.

Exactly. If the CFI knows what he's doing he would be in control of
the situation well enough to not need to shout and curse.

-Robert

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Sep 12, 5:17 pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> I agree, and I would counter that you don't have to shout or curse at a
>> student to gain that respect. In fact, with most students, that is
>> EXACTLY the fastest way to LOSE that respect.
>
> Exactly. If the CFI knows what he's doing he would be in control of
> the situation well enough to not need to shout and curse.
>
> -Robert

Many, (all too many in fact) instructors make the HUGE mistake of
projecting right from the beginning, the exact opposite of what they
should be projecting to a new student. Through their actions, their
verbal expression, and their general attitude, they convey to a student
how well THEY can fly the airplane and how much THEY know about flying.
This attitude in many cases shows up in the cockpit as an aura of "I'M
in command here. If you do EXACTLY as I say, I'll allow you to learn
from me. If not, you can bet your ass you'll hear about it!!!"

The exact opposite is the "aura" the instructor should be projecting to
a student. You don't have to constantly make the student aware of how
superior YOU are. They already assume that or they wouldn't have gotten
in the airplane with you. What's needed is the creation of a calm but
professional projection to the student that is designed from the very
beginning to allow the student to mentally project that flying the
airplane is within THEIR reach, and that YOU as the instructor, are
there to help them reach that goal.

Instructors need to spend more time building confidence in students
instead of raising their voices at them. ANY raising of an instructor's
voice instills fear and apprehension in a student. It conveys to them
that something is VERY wrong, either with the aircraft, or with
something they are doing with the aircraft.It's very bad policy and
detracts from the value of the lesson.
I've started every primary student who has climbed into an airplane with
me with the same approach. In a calm quiet voice I explain to them as we
walk out to the airplane that flying is not all that hard. I'll be
letting them take the controls from the very beginning and that they are
NOT to worry because no matter what they do I won't allow them to hurt
either us or the airplane.

Once an instructor reaches the point with a student where they feel
relaxed and safe, confidence begins to build and real learning becomes
possible. All shouting and cursing at a student does is delay that
necessary point from happening.



--
Dudley Henriques

[Robert Moore]

"Robert M. Gary" wrote
> On Sep 12, 5:17*pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> I agree, and I would counter that you don't have to shout or curse at a
>> student to gain that respect. In fact, with most students, that is
>> EXACTLY the fastest way to LOSE that respect.
>
> Exactly. If the CFI knows what he's doing he would be in control of
> the situation well enough to not need to shout and curse.

I suspect that Rocky and I would make great friends as I and probably most
of his students understand where he is coming from...an ex-Marine D.I.

His students have most likely been exposed to the DI act somewhere in their
officer training as I was. As we did, they probably gather over a beer in
the evening and brag about who was able to rankle Rocky the most.

My old Pre-Flight DI wasn't near as tough as he thought he was. Navy regs
prohibited him from swearing at the future officers. This effectively
destroyed much of the DI act. And....as far as the fight scene in "An
Officer and a Gentleman" between the cadet and the DI....could not have
possibly happened.

However Rocky....It appears as if you have been severely out voted on the
language issue. :) :)

Bob Moore

[Andy Hawkins]

Hi,

In article >,
Ol Shy & > wrote:
> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?

I think it's very dependant on the type of personality you are. I learned at
a Flying Club where all the instructors were basically volunteers. As a
result, throughout my training I had something like 7 or 8 instructors, all
with differing style.

Personally, I found that I learned more from the instructors that let me
make my mistakes, and allowed me to realise I'd made them and have to learn
from them myself.

I had one instructor that took me on my first Nav flight. Every time I got 1
degree off course, or 100 feet off altitude, or 1 knot off airspeed, she
would point it out to me and force me to correct it instantly. To my mind, I
learned little from that, because there wouldn't be someone doing the same
in the cockpit once I'd qualified.

Another instructor (who I completed my training and I found incredibly
beneficial) would let me make the mistakes. One I remember in particular was
rejoining the circuit at my home base (military field). I made the call to
enter the zone, then called joining Right Base, and was asked to report
final.

In the UK, the military 'final' is a curving turn that starts at around the
same point as the base leg would start on a standard rectangular circuit. I
got all the way down to about 300 feet before the lady on ATC called

"G-ABCD, you *are* now cleared to land, try not to forget to report final in
future"

I looked over to my instructor and she was grinning away, she said:

"I was wondering when you were going to notice!"

I definitely didn't forget again!

I think what I'm trying to say, is that different people will require a
different style of intruction. The mark of a *good* instructor is
recognising the style the student needs, and tailoring their instruction
accordingly.

Andy

[Ol Shy & Bashful]

On Sep 13, 11:58*am, Robert Moore > wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" *wrote
>
> > On Sep 12, 5:17*pm, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> >> I agree, and I would counter that you don't have to shout or curse at a
> >> student to gain that respect. In fact, with most students, that is
> >> EXACTLY the fastest way to LOSE that respect.
>
> > Exactly. If the CFI knows what he's doing he would be in control of
> > the situation well enough to not need to shout and curse.
>
> I suspect that Rocky and I would make great friends as I and probably most
> of his students understand where he is coming from...an ex-Marine D.I.
>
> His students have most likely been exposed to the DI act somewhere in their
> officer training as I was. *As we did, they probably gather over a beer in
> the evening and brag about who was able to rankle Rocky the most.
>
> My old Pre-Flight DI wasn't near as tough as he thought he was. Navy regs
> prohibited him from swearing at the future officers. This effectively
> destroyed much of the DI act. *And....as far as the fight scene in "An
> Officer and a Gentleman" between the cadet and the DI....could not have
> possibly happened.
>
> However Rocky....It appears as if you have been severely out voted on the
> language issue. *:) *:)
>
> Bob Moore

Bob
Yeh it would appear that way. I query students about it from time to
time to see if it is hurting effectivness and for the most part they
are positive towards my techniques. But, and this is the really odd
part, other CFI's try it and get slammed hard in critiques! From time
to time I'll not use even a hint of profanity and rely on well
educated use of the english language. Doesn't seem to work nearly as
well for me.
I have been, and always will be I suppose, very cognizant of profanity
with female students until they outswear me. I really do try to keep
it from getting overboard. I recall a helicopter instructor of mine
back in the 60's who could not speak a simple sentence without
profanity. I discovered I was counting his curse words rather than
getting benefit of instruction. This was after I had 4-5000 hours so
it wasn't as if I was a rank new guy. When I talked to him about it,
he reply was "No ****?" <GGGGG>
I'm glad to see this post has generated so much discussion. Most of
the time I try to create a subject line that will draw out the pros
for everyones benefit.
Best Professional Regards to you all
Rocky

[Robert M. Gary]

On Sep 13, 8:55*am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:


> The exact opposite is the "aura" the instructor should be projecting to
> a student. You don't have to constantly make the student aware of how
> superior YOU are. They already assume that or they wouldn't have gotten
> in the airplane with you.

Its funny but people just assume you must he a "super pilot" if you
are a CFI. I guess to the student pilot a CFI seems like Yeager. I can
say that I've never felt like a student needed me to "prove" my flying
ability. I can see how some CFIs could get a big head because of all
this. However, all it takes is to sit in the left seat with good CFI
to break you back down. :)
This is also where decision making starts. Because a student usually
looks up to his first CFI he will tend to emmulate your decision
making. The CFI who likes to buzz farm houses will have a student who
thinks that once he's a good pilot he should start buzzing farm
houses. I just can't say enough about the importance of being
professional. If you act like a true professional in the cockpit you
will have students who believe that they need to be professional in
the cockpit.

-Robert

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Sep 13, 8:55 am, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>
>
>> The exact opposite is the "aura" the instructor should be projecting to
>> a student. You don't have to constantly make the student aware of how
>> superior YOU are. They already assume that or they wouldn't have gotten
>> in the airplane with you.
>
> Its funny but people just assume you must he a "super pilot" if you
> are a CFI. I guess to the student pilot a CFI seems like Yeager. I can
> say that I've never felt like a student needed me to "prove" my flying
> ability. I can see how some CFIs could get a big head because of all
> this. However, all it takes is to sit in the left seat with good CFI
> to break you back down. :)
> This is also where decision making starts. Because a student usually
> looks up to his first CFI he will tend to emmulate your decision
> making. The CFI who likes to buzz farm houses will have a student who
> thinks that once he's a good pilot he should start buzzing farm
> houses. I just can't say enough about the importance of being
> professional. If you act like a true professional in the cockpit you
> will have students who believe that they need to be professional in
> the cockpit.
>
> -Robert
Exactly correct.
I think I learned more about flying by teaching people to fly than I
could ever have learned in any other venue in aviation. It's absolutely
amazing how much you learn while finding different ways to teach a
student pilot. The more you search for the "right way" to present
something, the more you learn about that "something" yourself :-))

You're right about a student's first CFI. The initial hours spent before
solo are among the most important a pilot will ever spend in an airplane.
The habit patterns formed during this initial exposure to an instructor
can very well follow a pilot throughout their entire tenure in aviation.

After a lifetime in aviation, I'm STILL learning!!!

--
Dudley Henriques

[Frank Olson]

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:

> What has been most effective for you?


I like the "ruler across the knuckles" approach. If you don't have a
ruler handy, a kneeboard across the back of the head works just as good.
:-)

[John Godwin]

Frank Olson > wrote in
:

> I like the "ruler across the knuckles" approach. If you don't
> have a ruler handy, a kneeboard across the back of the head works
> just as good.

You woulda made a great nun :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
--

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

John Godwin wrote:
> Frank Olson > wrote in
> :
>
>> I like the "ruler across the knuckles" approach. If you don't
>> have a ruler handy, a kneeboard across the back of the head works
>> just as good.
>
> You woulda made a great nun :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

Funny you should say that. My first brush into compressibility was the
day Sister Paskillina caught me smoking in the boys bathroom between
classes at St. Aloysius Academy and laid that long hickory pointing
stick with the little rubber tip down across my outstretched palm.
I can still hear that "whoooooooooosh" !!!!!!
:-))))

--
Dudley Henriques

[Jay Maynard]

On 2008-09-14, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
> I think I learned more about flying by teaching people to fly than I
> could ever have learned in any other venue in aviation.

This is most of the reason I'm pursuing the rating: I think it'll make me a
better pilot.

What you're seeing is the same thing they learned in medicine a long time
ago. The standard method for learning something new there is "see one, do
one, teach one". The last step drives the lesson home.
--
Jay Maynard, K5ZC http://www.conmicro.com
http://jmaynard.livejournal.com http://www.tronguy.net
Fairmont, MN (FRM) (Yes, that's me!)
AMD Zodiac CH601XLi N55ZC

[Dudley Henriques[_2_]]

Jay Maynard wrote:
> On 2008-09-14, Dudley Henriques > wrote:
>> I think I learned more about flying by teaching people to fly than I
>> could ever have learned in any other venue in aviation.
>
> This is most of the reason I'm pursuing the rating: I think it'll make me a
> better pilot.
>
> What you're seeing is the same thing they learned in medicine a long time
> ago. The standard method for learning something new there is "see one, do
> one, teach one". The last step drives the lesson home.

This last step is what in my talks with flight instructors I call the
"verification step".

The best way to determine that a pilot understands something you have
taught them is to have them teach it back to you in their own words
reflecting their own level of comprehension and retention.

This is the right approach to learning, and you are absolutely correct.
Teaching others to fly will without question make you a better pilot.



--
Dudley Henriques

[Frank Olson]

John Godwin wrote:
> Frank Olson > wrote in
> :
>
>> I like the "ruler across the knuckles" approach. If you don't
>> have a ruler handy, a kneeboard across the back of the head works
>> just as good.
>
> You woulda made a great nun :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)


They would have called me "Sister Francis". ;-)

[C J Campbell[_1_]]

On 2008-09-12 13:57:33 -0700, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > said:

>
> Dudley
> Can you honestly say you have never ever said "What the fu*& is going
> on here?" or some variation of that theme?

Personally, I can honestly say it. I think I can instruct without being
abusive. People do not listen to abuse. They expect honest criticism,
but not abuse. It has nothing to do with "touchy feely" and everything
to do with being able to communicate. When abuse begins, instruction
and learning end. The client is now only interested in avoiding further
abuse.

Frankly, I don't think that a bully makes a good instructor. And sooner
or later you are going to get somebody that does not tolerate bullying
well... And they might be bigger than you. Somebody who pointlessly
curses at me is asking for a knuckle sandwich -- or a 2x4 across the
chops.

Bullying and abuse will make the student afraid to ask questions. This
leads to poor management and encourages a pilot to refuse to admit
mistakes. Abusive training creates dangerous, inflexible pilots who are
often incapable of dealing effectively with problems or even seeing
problems.

General Patton believed that foul language helped his men to remember
what he told them. All too often, though, what they remembered was the
foul language -- not the lesson that Patton was trying to teach.

Now, I know some fine instructors and examiners who use a lot of foul
language. I do not consider the foul language to be one of their
assets, however. They are good instructors in spite of their faults,
not because of them. A man who loses control and begins swearing is
telling me that he is on the verge of panic, or worse, -- not what I
would call a fine attribute in an instructor. It screams incompetence
and insecurity.

An instructor who suddenly explodes or who otherwise appears incapable
of controlling his temper is not just a bad instructor; to my mind he
should not be anywhere near an airplane. He is mentally or emotionally
unfit to be a pilot. I am not saying that you are such an instructor,
you understand. I simply say that this is the message I get from an
instructor who seems unable to rule himself.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

[Ross]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Sep 12, 1:57 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote:
>
>> I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
>> think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
>> offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.
>
> I try to explain this to my kids. People don't mind if their plumber
> shows up in a dirty tee shirt and with a dirty mouth because he's a
> plumber. Now imagine if you walked into your Dr's office and your Dr
> had on a dirty tee shirt and had a dirty mouth. People look at how
> people present themselves and decide how educated and competent they
> are for the job. This is why airline pilots wear silly hats and boards
> on their shoulders. When you act like a plumber with your students
> they will question whether or not they really want a plumber showing
> them how to fly.
>
> -Robert

A comment here. Years ago there was a free lance instructor at our
airport. He would come out in a tank top, shorts, and flip-flops. Always
smoking a cigarette. I always thought how disgusting and unprofessional.
I would never want to fly with someone like him.

I have gone though private, commercial, instrument, BRFs, IPCs, and can
not remember anyone cussing at me, especially the "F" word. I would not
go back it that were the case.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Gezellig]

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:18:15 -0400, Dudley Henriques wrote:

> but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
> student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
> problem :-))

If you are *really* trying to make an impression on a student who is
*really* unprepared, without focus and/or is generally a boneheaded
jackoff, then *maybe* swearing at them will work.

I work my butt of to be prepared in every possible way I can. If a
CFIhas a criticism, I am hoping I will hear it. Nothing makes gives me
more incentive than to fall a bit short of my own expectations.

If a CFI starts swearing at me, I'll fly the plane, land it and kick his
ass off.

No **** :)

[Mick[_2_]]

"Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
...
> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
> get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
> normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
> who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
> out in the field when they go operational.
> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
> step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
> student learning.
> Should be interesting to discuss.
> Ol S&B
> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

The most effective way to teach anything is positive affirmation only. Every
thing else is second best.

[Bertie the Bunyip[_25_]]

"Mick" <@_#`~#@.^net> wrote in :

>
> "Ol Shy & Bashful" > wrote in message
> news:2a11d1fd-7585-424a-8db1-08a09f3d17b3@
8g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
>> touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
>> Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
>> Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
>> Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning
>> to get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to
>> the normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student
>> pilot who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a
>> rocket out in the field when they go operational.
>> What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
>> explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
>> who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
>> spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
>> Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
>> year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get
>> to step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
>> satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
>> Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
>> student learning.
>> Should be interesting to discuss.
>> Ol S&B
>> CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
>
> The most effective way to teach anything is positive affirmation only.
> Every thing else is second best.
>
>


Absolutely. As in "You are a perfect fjukkwit"


Bertie
>
>
>
>

[Mick[_2_]]

"Bertie the Bunyip" > wrote in message
...
>
> Absolutely. As in "You are a perfect fjukkwit"
>
>
> Bertie


Same old worn out stupidity,
same old worn out cross post,
same old retarded wanna be, eh Buttlipps?

[Blanche]

a > wrote:
[snip]

>The other alternative for a student is much more effective: "You're
>fired." It is not used enough,not just with CFIs but with MDs and
>others

Oh yes, I've done that. I walked into a physician's office once (referral
for dermatology issue) who immediately introduced himself as
"hello darlin', I'm Doctor xxx"

At which point, I replied, "Hello Fred (not his real first name), I'm
Doctor YYY". Needless to say, he was rather taken aback and all of
a sudden I'm no longer "darlin'"

Not only did he not correctly diagnose the problem, what he did
prescribe was ineffective (turns out I'm allergic to lanolin which
means wool and just about every lotion out there).

As for swearing, there's probably very little I haven't heard, since
my professional career has been mostly aerospace/aviation with a
healthy dose of field geologists. On the other hand, I truly believe
that if you can't discuss someone's heritage, parentage and destination
in your native language (or other of choice) without resorting to
single syllabic words, you really don't have a good command of the
language. For those who didn't read it in high school, go find a copy
of Cyrano de Bergerac and check out the party scene (early in the
book). That's how to insult someone.

And Rocky - concerning the other CFIs who get "mentioned" on evals
for swearing...it's all based on personality. You obviously can get
away with it.

And remember folks, Rocky's dealing with Type A+ personalities in the
military. These are "super bad dudes" in the privacy of the locker room
and outside, Gentlemen (the males) by act of congress.

I've taught at the Navy PostGrad school - in class, the aviators are
the most gracious. At the parties, after a few beers, defintely different.

[Robert Moore]

Blanche wrote
> And remember folks, Rocky's dealing with Type A+ personalities in the
> military. These are "super bad dudes" in the privacy of the locker
> room and outside, Gentlemen (the males) by act of congress.

Why bless you "Darlin'", I've never really thought of myself in those
terms. You've given me a whole new image of myself.
Can't wait to tell the grandkids....:) :)

Bob Moore
Naval Aviator 15753
25 SEP 1959

[Mike Isaksen]

"Blanche" wrote ...
> And remember folks, Rocky's dealing with Type A+ personalities
> in the military. These are "super bad dudes" in the privacy of the
> locker room and outside, Gentlemen (the males) by act of congress.

"Gentlemen by Act of Congress"

Wow, what a great snipit of wisdom for wall at the BAQ.

Thanks.