Instructor Effectiveness

Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

I think you might be "leaning" a bit too far into the "touchy/feeley"
description to express what you consider not your way of doing things
there Rocky :-) If the hard approach including cussing in the cockpit
works for you, so be it, but you'll have a REAL hard time convincing me
that this is a good teaching technique.
I can assure you I'm far from being a Pansy in the cockpit, and I cal
state emphatically that cursing in the cockpit is NOT one of my teaching
techniques.
The proper use of praise and criticism are an integral part of ANY good
accepted flight instruction technique. I've been teaching this way all
through my career with no problems whatsoever. I also teach instructors
to teach this way with no problems.
We've all had one of these "cussing" CFI's at one time or another. If
that's your cup of tea, by all means do it that way. In my opinion it's
not necessary and not even advisable to teach this way, but that's just me.
You asked for an opinion, this is mine. Sorry; no disrespect intended,
but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
problem :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 12, 3:18*pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:





Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967

I think you might be "leaning" a bit too far into the "touchy/feeley"
description to express what you consider not your way of doing things
there Rocky :-) If the hard approach including cussing in the cockpit
works for you, so be it, but you'll have a REAL hard time convincing me
that this is a good teaching technique.
I can assure you I'm far from being a Pansy in the cockpit, and I cal
state emphatically that cursing in the cockpit is NOT one of my teaching
techniques.
The proper use of praise and criticism are an integral part of ANY good
accepted flight instruction technique. I've been teaching this way all
through my career with no problems whatsoever. I also teach instructors
to teach this way with no problems.
We've all had one of these "cussing" CFI's at one time or another. If
that's your cup of tea, by all means do it that way. In my opinion it's
not necessary and not even advisable to teach this way, but that's just me.
You asked for an opinion, this is mine. Sorry; no disrespect intended,
but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
problem :-))

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dudley
Can you honestly say you have never ever said "What the fu*& is going
on here?" or some variation of that theme?
Of course if it is in every statement it degrades what is being said.
I recall an instructor that could not say anything without profanity
and that colored my approach and awareness of how much it detracts
from effective instruction. OTOH, saying "Inshallah" on final is not
always workable either? g
I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.
Even then, after the fact we can discuss it but in the heat of the
moment we may not have time to discuss the relative merits of profane
outbursts like WTF are you doing? Or watch your f**8 altitude, or
whatever.
I love to use english at its ultimate but often find in the heat of
the moment, profanity is much more effective and timely.
You know how us Marines are.....
Cheers
Rocky

Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:
On Sep 12, 3:18 pm, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Ol Shy & Bashful wrote:





Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?
Who did you learn the most from and what was the drill?
Of course there is a different perspective from a civilian learning to
get over the fear of heights or unusual attitudes (as opposed to the
normal of right side up on the highway) and a military student pilot
who is going to be exposed to getting shot in the ass with a rocket
out in the field when they go operational.
What has been most effective for you? The teacher who spent time
explaining what you were trying to learn and how it works, or the one
who just demanded you do the syllabus? How much time did you have to
spend one on one? Or did you even get that opportunity?
Did you have to learn under pressure or did you have the luxury of a
year or two to get to step one? Was it even important to you to get to
step one or two? What was the motivation? Was it for personal
satisfaction? Was it because of familial pressure?
Lots of factors to consider that impact instructor effectiveness.and
student learning.
Should be interesting to discuss.
Ol S&B
CFII/RAM AIGI - Original CFI in 1967
I think you might be "leaning" a bit too far into the "touchy/feeley"
description to express what you consider not your way of doing things
there Rocky :-) If the hard approach including cussing in the cockpit
works for you, so be it, but you'll have a REAL hard time convincing me
that this is a good teaching technique.
I can assure you I'm far from being a Pansy in the cockpit, and I cal
state emphatically that cursing in the cockpit is NOT one of my teaching
techniques.
The proper use of praise and criticism are an integral part of ANY good
accepted flight instruction technique. I've been teaching this way all
through my career with no problems whatsoever. I also teach instructors
to teach this way with no problems.
We've all had one of these "cussing" CFI's at one time or another. If
that's your cup of tea, by all means do it that way. In my opinion it's
not necessary and not even advisable to teach this way, but that's just me.
You asked for an opinion, this is mine. Sorry; no disrespect intended,
but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
problem :-))

--
Dudley Henriques- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Dudley
Can you honestly say you have never ever said "What the fu*& is going
on here?" or some variation of that theme?
Of course if it is in every statement it degrades what is being said.
I recall an instructor that could not say anything without profanity
and that colored my approach and awareness of how much it detracts
from effective instruction. OTOH, saying "Inshallah" on final is not
always workable either? g
I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.
Even then, after the fact we can discuss it but in the heat of the
moment we may not have time to discuss the relative merits of profane
outbursts like WTF are you doing? Or watch your f**8 altitude, or
whatever.
I love to use english at its ultimate but often find in the heat of
the moment, profanity is much more effective and timely.
You know how us Marines are.....
Cheers
Rocky
Yes, I can honestly and truthfully say that. In fact, I'm so much
against this procedure that I made it a point to address it with every
instructor I taught personally and at every seminar I ever gave that
involved instructors.

The military used the "corporal" teaching approach during WW2 with some
success but their program was time management based with results
demanded within a specific time frame or failure indicated. It is
noteworthy that the washout rate using this method was extremely high
and anticipated to be extremely high.

I can think of no authoritative source in the entire industry that even
comes close to recommending your suggested method as a viable teaching
tool. If I am mistaken in this, please advise me and I will stand corrected.

I'm not trying to be overly critical here Rocky. As another instructor
has said, you use whatever works for you with a specific student. I have
no problem with this premise at all. I also have never once, and I
repeat again, never once, EVER had a student who I felt would be more
responsive to a teaching method that including cussing at a student or
teaching a student in any other way but a calm, precise, and totally
professional manner.

Now all this having been said, I will tell you that I have been by
MYSELF in an airplane several times during my career when I have shouted
to myself, "Jesus H Christ Almightly.....WHAT the **** was THAT!!! :-)

--
Dudley Henriques

On Sep 12, 1:57*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.

I try to explain this to my kids. People don't mind if their plumber
shows up in a dirty tee shirt and with a dirty mouth because he's a
plumber. Now imagine if you walked into your Dr's office and your Dr
had on a dirty tee shirt and had a dirty mouth. People look at how
people present themselves and decide how educated and competent they
are for the job. This is why airline pilots wear silly hats and boards
on their shoulders. When you act like a plumber with your students
they will question whether or not they really want a plumber showing
them how to fly.

-Robert

On Sep 12, 7:44*pm, "Robert M. Gary" wrote:
On Sep 12, 1:57*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.

I try to explain this to my kids. People don't mind if their plumber
shows up in a dirty tee shirt and with a dirty mouth because he's a
plumber. Now imagine if you walked into your Dr's office and your Dr
had on a dirty tee shirt and had a dirty mouth. People look at how
people present themselves and decide how educated and competent they
are for the job. This is why airline pilots wear silly hats and boards
on their shoulders. When you act like a plumber with your students
they will question whether or not they really want a plumber showing
them how to fly.

-Robert

Speaking of language and hobbies --- I played golf with a minister not
so long ago, and asked him after he made a bad stroke how he restrains
himself from expressing himself the way some of us do. He said there
is plenty of scripture he can quite that fits golf (and I'm thinking
flight instruction) quite nicely.

I would point out that calling someone an 'anal sphincter' is a
classy way of expressing your opinion.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
On Sep 12, 1:57 pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:

I am a very up front person as you know after all these years. If I
think profanity is called for to make a point, I'll use it. If it
offends someone, that is to be confronted by us that are involved.

I try to explain this to my kids. People don't mind if their plumber
shows up in a dirty tee shirt and with a dirty mouth because he's a
plumber. Now imagine if you walked into your Dr's office and your Dr
had on a dirty tee shirt and had a dirty mouth. People look at how
people present themselves and decide how educated and competent they
are for the job. This is why airline pilots wear silly hats and boards
on their shoulders. When you act like a plumber with your students
they will question whether or not they really want a plumber showing
them how to fly.

-Robert

A comment here. Years ago there was a free lance instructor at our
airport. He would come out in a tank top, shorts, and flip-flops. Always
smoking a cigarette. I always thought how disgusting and unprofessional.
I would never want to fly with someone like him.

I have gone though private, commercial, instrument, BRFs, IPCs, and can
not remember anyone cussing at me, especially the "F" word. I would not
go back it that were the case.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

On 2008-09-12 13:57:33 -0700, "Ol Shy & Bashful" said:


Dudley
Can you honestly say you have never ever said "What the fu*& is going
on here?" or some variation of that theme?

Personally, I can honestly say it. I think I can instruct without being
abusive. People do not listen to abuse. They expect honest criticism,
but not abuse. It has nothing to do with "touchy feely" and everything
to do with being able to communicate. When abuse begins, instruction
and learning end. The client is now only interested in avoiding further
abuse.

Frankly, I don't think that a bully makes a good instructor. And sooner
or later you are going to get somebody that does not tolerate bullying
well... And they might be bigger than you. Somebody who pointlessly
curses at me is asking for a knuckle sandwich -- or a 2x4 across the
chops.

Bullying and abuse will make the student afraid to ask questions. This
leads to poor management and encourages a pilot to refuse to admit
mistakes. Abusive training creates dangerous, inflexible pilots who are
often incapable of dealing effectively with problems or even seeing
problems.

General Patton believed that foul language helped his men to remember
what he told them. All too often, though, what they remembered was the
foul language -- not the lesson that Patton was trying to teach.

Now, I know some fine instructors and examiners who use a lot of foul
language. I do not consider the foul language to be one of their
assets, however. They are good instructors in spite of their faults,
not because of them. A man who loses control and begins swearing is
telling me that he is on the verge of panic, or worse, -- not what I
would call a fine attribute in an instructor. It screams incompetence
and insecurity.

An instructor who suddenly explodes or who otherwise appears incapable
of controlling his temper is not just a bad instructor; to my mind he
should not be anywhere near an airplane. He is mentally or emotionally
unfit to be a pilot. I am not saying that you are such an instructor,
you understand. I simply say that this is the message I get from an
instructor who seems unable to rule himself.


--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

On Fri, 12 Sep 2008 16:18:15 -0400, Dudley Henriques wrote:

but I'll tell you what I tell ALL instructors; if you're cussing at a
student or even yelling at a student, it's not the student who has the
problem :-))

If you are *really* trying to make an impression on a student who is
*really* unprepared, without focus and/or is generally a boneheaded
jackoff, then *maybe* swearing at them will work.

I work my butt of to be prepared in every possible way I can. If a
CFIhas a criticism, I am hoping I will hear it. Nothing makes gives me
more incentive than to fall a bit short of my own expectations.

If a CFI starts swearing at me, I'll fly the plane, land it and kick his
ass off.

No ****

On Sep 12, 1:01*pm, "Ol Shy & Bashful" wrote:
Ongoing discussion regarding different techniques. Do we do it with a
touchy feely softly spoken and oh my gosh thats just fine.....
Or do we do it with a harsh what in hell was that all about?


Hopefully you can find a middle ground. I realized early that the
first thing an instructor needs is respect. That starts from the
moment you approach the student. I almost only work with owners and
not part of an FBO. However, I always wear business attire, I never
teach in shorts, jeans, etc. That just sets the stage. You want to act
professionally. Don't curse when you can use more intelligent words,
give thoughtful reasons for what you are doing, don't just say 'that's
the way you have to do it'. It can be difficult to be professional
when you are too touchy-feely. However, most people are happy that the
old school gruff instructors are all retired. I think you have to find
a middle ground. Also, you want to tailor to the student you are
working with. I tend to lean towards being "all business" but I found
that you really need to first approach your student with "how are you
doing? how's your day going" small talk. You need to be somewhat
personal.

-Robert, CFII