Getting an IFR Clearance

[Kobra]

Fellow Aviators,

I was flying on Tuesday from N14 in NJ to Baltimore-Washington Airport. I
was going IFR because of the Washington ADIZ.

When I called McGuire Approach for my clearance I was given the route and
all information except my release, void and advise times. They said to call
back in 10 minutes for release.

Ok...so I taxi down to the runway, do my run-up and pre-takeoff checks and
wait the remaining time twiddling my thumbs for the full 10 minutes (hobbs
running the whole time of course). I call in and they tell me that there
will be another delay and to call back in 10 more minutes.

I could have shut the engine down and waited, but I was also on a tight
schedule as I had to be back to work at 3:00 pm and the current time was
about 10:45 am.

I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route at
4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air. After I
said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the controller
and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just to show me
who's boss.

Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I called
approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The response was,
"...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5 miles northeast..."
Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and flew about 8 miles
before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was told to standby and
after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.

Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City approach
to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for circumventing
ATC's authority?

Kobra

[Mxsmanic]

Kobra writes:

> Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I called
> approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The response was,
> "...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5 miles northeast..."
> Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and flew about 8 miles
> before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was told to standby and
> after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.
>
> Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
> couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City approach
> to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for circumventing
> ATC's authority?

Perhaps your originally planned route caused a problem for traffic, which is
why ATC had you waiting so long. Then, when you took off VFR and trying to
activate the plan, the same traffic issue arose, so he had to turn you down
unless you could go a different way that he could clear (which he probably
would have cleared you for if you had filed it originally, too).

Why assume that the controller is trying to get back at you? You may have
wanted a route that he couldn't easily accommodate immediately, so whether you
were on the ground or in the air, you'd have to wait for that route.

[Kobra]

> Why assume that the controller is trying to get back at you? You may have
> wanted a route that he couldn't easily accommodate immediately, so whether
> you
> were on the ground or in the air, you'd have to wait for that route.

Because when you depart VFR you are at an altitude that does not conflict
with IFR traffic and therefore he could have allowed me to continue on
course under VFR flight following until there was no conflict and then
either activated my flight plan or handed me off to the next controller if
he couldn't open it. Further, when McGuire releases you they always clear
you northeast to RBV VOR first, then V276, then DIXIE intersection and THEN
V16 southwest bound. Therefore, when I called up in the air, I was in a
completely different area at a completely different time then if they had
released me when requested. The chances of having a conflict there as well
is possible, but I would say not probable.

Kobra

[Mike]

"Kobra" > wrote in message
. ..
> Fellow Aviators,
>
> I was flying on Tuesday from N14 in NJ to Baltimore-Washington Airport. I
> was going IFR because of the Washington ADIZ.
>
> When I called McGuire Approach for my clearance I was given the route and
> all information except my release, void and advise times. They said to
> call back in 10 minutes for release.
>
> Ok...so I taxi down to the runway, do my run-up and pre-takeoff checks and
> wait the remaining time twiddling my thumbs for the full 10 minutes (hobbs
> running the whole time of course). I call in and they tell me that there
> will be another delay and to call back in 10 more minutes.
>
> I could have shut the engine down and waited, but I was also on a tight
> schedule as I had to be back to work at 3:00 pm and the current time was
> about 10:45 am.
>
> I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route
> at 4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air.
> After I said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the
> controller and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just
> to show me who's boss.
>
> Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I
> called approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The
> response was, "...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5
> miles northeast..." Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and
> flew about 8 miles before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was
> told to standby and after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.
>
> Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
> couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City
> approach to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for
> circumventing ATC's authority?

I doubt it. It's certainly not unheard of for a ****ed off ATCer to issue
penalty vectors, but it doesn't happen that often. Had he wanted to
penalize you it would have been much easier just to tell you unable to your
pop-up and go **** off. Some DOD approach controls don't have the same
hand-off capability as FAA facilities so you may have been too close to the
edge of his airspace to get your flight plan going and manually coordinate
with the next facility. It also doesn't take too much traffic before DOD
facilities are overloaded.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 24, 4:31*pm, "Kobra" > wrote:
> *The chances of having a conflict there as well
> is possible, but I would say not probable.
>
> Kobra

Don't feed the troll Kobra. Mx doesn't know the IFR system IN THE
REAL WORLD, only VATSIM and I'd hate for this group get polluted like
RAS and RAP. As you know flying a real airplane is quite different
then sitting front of a desktop computer simming

To answer your question, could be many factors that you raise, but
maybe a call to tracon may give you some enlightment?

It does seem odd that ATC would ask for a complete course reversal at
a VFR altitude. Did you gandar at Flight Aware to see what your track
look like in relation to your next fix and airway?

Like you, when I am up even remotely close to the ADIZ, IFR is the way
to go :-))

[Kobra]

It does seem odd that ATC would ask for a complete course reversal at
a VFR altitude. Did you gandar at Flight Aware to see what your track
look like in relation to your next fix and airway?

Atlieb,

I just went to flight aware and unfortunately they only show my return trip.
I cancelled 3/4 the way home to get a direct route to N14.

Kobra

[[email protected]]

On Sep 24, 8:34*pm, "Kobra" > wrote:

> I just went to flight aware and unfortunately they only show my return trip.
> I cancelled 3/4 the way home to get a direct route to N14.
>
> Kobra

Dang,

I thought maybe the flight track may help explain the course reversal,
more like set you up for intercepting the next fix would have been my
guess.

Oh well, nothing gained, nothing lost but the adventure, and heck, you
left terra firma!

[pgbnh]

I suspect that you were either out of, or aboiut to be out of, his airspace.
Thus " I can not clear you ........" (until you fly northeast to get back in
my airspace). I would hope that a controller would have said 'unable -
contact approach on xxx.yy for your clearance'.

Or perhaps you could have proposed to mcGuire that you continue VFR and open
with the next controller


"Kobra" > wrote in message
. ..
> Fellow Aviators,
>
> I was flying on Tuesday from N14 in NJ to Baltimore-Washington Airport. I
> was going IFR because of the Washington ADIZ.
>
> When I called McGuire Approach for my clearance I was given the route and
> all information except my release, void and advise times. They said to
> call back in 10 minutes for release.
>
> Ok...so I taxi down to the runway, do my run-up and pre-takeoff checks and
> wait the remaining time twiddling my thumbs for the full 10 minutes (hobbs
> running the whole time of course). I call in and they tell me that there
> will be another delay and to call back in 10 more minutes.
>
> I could have shut the engine down and waited, but I was also on a tight
> schedule as I had to be back to work at 3:00 pm and the current time was
> about 10:45 am.
>
> I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route
> at 4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air.
> After I said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the
> controller and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just
> to show me who's boss.
>
> Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I
> called approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The
> response was, "...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5
> miles northeast..." Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and
> flew about 8 miles before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was
> told to standby and after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.
>
> Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
> couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City
> approach to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for
> circumventing ATC's authority?
>
> Kobra
>
>
>

[Kobra]

"pgbnh" > wrote in message
. ..
>I suspect that you were either out of, or aboiut to be out of, his
>airspace. Thus " I can not clear you ........" (until you fly northeast to
>get back in my airspace). I would hope that a controller would have said
>'unable - contact approach on xxx.yy for your clearance'.
>
> Or perhaps you could have proposed to mcGuire that you continue VFR and
> open with the next controller

Thought of that only after the fact.

Kobra

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Mx doesn't know the IFR system IN THE
> REAL WORLD, only VATSIM and I'd hate for this group get polluted like
> RAS and RAP.

What are the relevant differences? And what makes you think that I don't know
the IFR system of the real world? It's not top secret, after all.

> As you know flying a real airplane is quite different
> then sitting front of a desktop computer simming

But flying an airplane and following established, published procedures are two
different things.

Most pilots don't know anything about IFR, either.

[Mike]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> writes:
>
>> Mx doesn't know the IFR system IN THE
>> REAL WORLD, only VATSIM and I'd hate for this group get polluted like
>> RAS and RAP.
>
> What are the relevant differences? And what makes you think that I don't
> know
> the IFR system of the real world? It's not top secret, after all.

You don't know the IFR system of the real world because you obviously have
no experience with it. If you can't understand the difference between
knowledge and experience, there's really no point in evaluating your input
because it would be like discussing lovemaking with someone who had only
read a book on the subject or had only participated online (which is a
strong possibility in your case also).

[[email protected]]

On Sep 25, 3:50*pm, "Mike" <nospam@ microsoft.com> wrote:

> because it would be like discussing lovemaking with someone who had only
> read a book on the subject or had only participated online (which is a
> strong possibility in your case also).

Unfortunately Mike, he has been told this time over time. Let's not
feed into it :-)

[Mike]

> wrote in message
...
> On Sep 25, 3:50 pm, "Mike" <nospam@ microsoft.com> wrote:
>
> > because it would be like discussing lovemaking with someone who had only
> > read a book on the subject or had only participated online (which is a
> > strong possibility in your case also).
>
> Unfortunately Mike, he has been told this time over time. Let's not
> feed into it :-)

And yet it still hasn't lost its novelty yet.

[Mxsmanic]

Mike writes:

> You don't know the IFR system of the real world because you obviously have
> no experience with it.

I do know the IFR system of the real world, since I've studied it.

You don't learn IFR by trial and error. You learn it by studying, and a great
deal of that is book study.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 25, 5:43*pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> I do know the IFR system of the real world, since I've studied it.
>
> You don't learn IFR by trial and error. *You learn it by studying, and a great
> deal of that is book study.

For the one and few remaining groups that still have it's sanity,
PLEASE disregard Mx postings!

The above response is off topic for the original thread question and
detracts from Kobra's original question regarding getting an IFR
clearance.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob F.[_2_]]

> wrote in message
...
On Sep 25, 5:43 pm, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> I do know the IFR system of the real world, since I've studied it.
>
> You don't learn IFR by trial and error. You learn it by studying, and a
> great
> deal of that is book study.

For the one and few remaining groups that still have it's sanity,
PLEASE disregard Mx postings!

The above response is off topic for the original thread question and
detracts from Kobra's original question regarding getting an IFR
clearance.

Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Why don't you just answer his question? It's a great opportunity to build
your writing, composition and debating skills. The source doesn't matter.
If you can't argue the point, YOU LOSE! If you don't want to play, SHUT UP!
I always like the statement, "Lead, Follow or Get out of the way", that
fosters progression, just don't hinder.

--
Regards, Bob F.

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> The above response is off topic for the original thread question and
> detracts from Kobra's original question regarding getting an IFR
> clearance.

And how is your response on topic?

[KP[_2_]]

"Kobra" > wrote in message
. ..
> I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route
> at 4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air.
> After I said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the
> controller and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just
> to show me who's boss.
>
> Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I
> called approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The
> response was, "...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5
> miles northeast..." Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around and
> flew about 8 miles before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I was
> told to standby and after another 2 minutes finally got my plan activated.
>
> Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
> couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City
> approach to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for
> circumventing ATC's authority?

I sincerely doubt you were being "paid back" in any way. McGuire Approach
is a USAF facility and USAF facilities simply don't operate that way.

Hold you on the ground because their automation or other equipment isn't
operating at 100% or their internal SOP is so cumbersome that it takes that
long to coordinate a release or they can't get any cooperation from an
adjacent facility? Happens all the time.

Turn you back into their airspace so they can do the required IFR
coordination and complete a handoff before you enter the next controller's
airspace? And maybe even think they're doing you a favor by getting your
IFR clearance going now instead of leaving you VFR and passing the buck to
the next facility? A distinct possibility.

Take you on the scenic route because they couldn't think of a better more
expeditious way? Sure.

Vector you halfway over creation because their vectoring skills need work?
You bet.

But turn you around just to show you "who's the boss?" Not likely.

[Mike]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Mike writes:
>
>> You don't know the IFR system of the real world because you obviously
>> have
>> no experience with it.
>
> I do know the IFR system of the real world, since I've studied it.
>
> You don't learn IFR by trial and error. You learn it by studying, and a
> great
> deal of that is book study.

It's really a simple equation.

1)Knowledge x 2)Experience = 3)Wisdom

Care to guess what something times zero equals, Anthony?

Are we getting through yet?

<tap, tap, tap>

Pull out your fingers and your toes and count how many people on any
aviation forums that think you know your ass from a crack. We'll all wait
while you count them up.

[Mike]

"KP" > wrote in message
...
> "Kobra" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> I said to my passenger, "we're gonna take off VFR and fly the filed route
>> at 4,500 feet and then request opening the IFR flight plan in the air.
>> After I said this I thought to myself, I bet this move will tick-off the
>> controller and he'll end up giving me some random circuitous vectors just
>> to show me who's boss.
>>
>> Sure enough as soon as I got leveled off on the first airway (V16) I
>> called approach and requested my IFR flight plan be activated. The
>> response was, "...I can't activate you're flight plan unless you fly 5
>> miles northeast..." Of course I was headed southwest. I turned around
>> and flew about 8 miles before I again asked for my plan to be opened. I
>> was told to standby and after another 2 minutes finally got my plan
>> activated.
>>
>> Now, my question is: If I wasn't in his airspace (which I think I was)
>> couldn't he have just told me to continue and contact Atlantic City
>> approach to open my plan? Do you think I was being "paid back" for
>> circumventing ATC's authority?
>
> I sincerely doubt you were being "paid back" in any way. McGuire Approach
> is a USAF facility and USAF facilities simply don't operate that way.

I've worked in both USAF and FAA ATC facilities and there's really little
difference in that regard. All it takes is one who thinks he's God's gift
to aviation, and there's always more than one in every RAPCON or TRACON. I
would agree that the chances are quite slim and there's probably a much more
likely reason, but I can't agree that USAF facilities "simply don't operate
that way" because I've seen it happen. The military is no more immune from
abuse of authority than anyone else.

[[email protected]]

On Sep 25, 7:00*pm, "Bob F." > wrote:

> Why don't you just answer his question? *

I did Bob, I answered Kobra's question.

Mx isn't here to learn, I think you been around long enough to know
this.

This is the last I will say on this. Sheez.

[Robert M. Gary]

Often times when ATC isn't able to give you a release they will ask
you if you can depart VFR. Perhaps you should have called them back
and say that was your intention? My airport is just under the ILS for
a large cargo airport so its not unusual to have to wait some time
before getting a slot. However, ATC will always offer me that if I
depart VFR and fly 5 miles South they gave offer me the clearance in
the air. The only downside of this is that we don't have wx on my
field so I never know what the clouds heights are.

-Robert

[Bob F.[_2_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
...
> Often times when ATC isn't able to give you a release they will ask
> you if you can depart VFR. Perhaps you should have called them back
> and say that was your intention? My airport is just under the ILS for
> a large cargo airport so its not unusual to have to wait some time
> before getting a slot. However, ATC will always offer me that if I
> depart VFR and fly 5 miles South they gave offer me the clearance in
> the air. The only downside of this is that we don't have wx on my
> field so I never know what the clouds heights are.
>
> -Robert


I know what you mean, I don't like to leave an airport when I'm "under the
weather" either.

--
Regards, Bob F.