What a shame; another military newsroup gone! [Archive]

Ed Rasimus

April 7th 04, 04:30 PM

On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:37:14 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> wrote:

>Yama wrote:
>> Amazing how adding just three lines to kill file made this group much more
>> readable.
>
>
>Exactomundo. A kill file, oddly enough, should be a living thing. I'm never
>afraid to add to it. Generally speaking, a carefully chosen expression can have
>almost universal effect, cleaning out pretty much all the crap and leaving the
>rest intact.
>
>I would never let off topic stuff run me off. Filter it instead...

While what you say is true, what Dudley has pointed out is true as
well. I used to look forward each day to opening the newsreader and
entering a discussion in R.A.M. Now, the group is filled with
propagandists and petty bickering. The main posters are either
anonymous twits trolling for other twits, or a half-dozen so-called
experts who simply append one-liners to unedited 150 line posts
calling each other fools.

My kill-file grows daily, but much like spammers, the posting source
keeps mutating and as soon as one mole gets whacked another pops out
of a nearby hole.

Unfortunately, after the kill-file does its work, there isn't much
"there" there.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Tarver Engineering

April 7th 04, 04:44 PM

"Ed Rasimus" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:37:14 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> > wrote:
>
> >Yama wrote:
> >> Amazing how adding just three lines to kill file made this group much
more
> >> readable.
> >
> >
> >Exactomundo. A kill file, oddly enough, should be a living thing. I'm
never
> >afraid to add to it. Generally speaking, a carefully chosen expression
can have
> >almost universal effect, cleaning out pretty much all the crap and
leaving the
> >rest intact.
> >
> >I would never let off topic stuff run me off. Filter it instead...
>
> While what you say is true, what Dudley has pointed out is true as
> well. I used to look forward each day to opening the newsreader and
> entering a discussion in R.A.M. Now, the group is filled with
> propagandists and petty bickering. The main posters are either
> anonymous twits trolling for other twits, or a half-dozen so-called
> experts who simply append one-liners to unedited 150 line posts
> calling each other fools.
>
> My kill-file grows daily, but much like spammers, the posting source
> keeps mutating and as soon as one mole gets whacked another pops out
> of a nearby hole.
>
> Unfortunately, after the kill-file does its work, there isn't much
> "there" there.

Oh come on, there are good threads on the F-22, F-18 and the Flanker hidden
in this garbage.None of it is the horray for me kind of thread, but it is
serious stuff.

Guy Alcala

April 7th 04, 09:29 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:

> On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:37:14 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> > wrote:
>
> >Yama wrote:
> >> Amazing how adding just three lines to kill file made this group much more
> >> readable.
> >
> >
> >Exactomundo. A kill file, oddly enough, should be a living thing. I'm never
> >afraid to add to it. Generally speaking, a carefully chosen expression can have
> >almost universal effect, cleaning out pretty much all the crap and leaving the
> >rest intact.
> >
> >I would never let off topic stuff run me off. Filter it instead...
>
> While what you say is true, what Dudley has pointed out is true as
> well. I used to look forward each day to opening the newsreader and
> entering a discussion in R.A.M. Now, the group is filled with
> propagandists and petty bickering. The main posters are either
> anonymous twits trolling for other twits, or a half-dozen so-called
> experts who simply append one-liners to unedited 150 line posts
> calling each other fools.
>
> My kill-file grows daily, but much like spammers, the posting source
> keeps mutating and as soon as one mole gets whacked another pops out
> of a nearby hole.
>
> Unfortunately, after the kill-file does its work, there isn't much
> "there" there.

Which is why we need the posters like Dudley who actually provide the quality
on-topic content we're here for, to stick around, not bail. The NG has survived all
the kooks and blind partisans who came out for Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq, the
2000 election et al, not to mention the perennial monomaniacs (Iranair, USS Liberty,
Flight 800, etc.). Surviving campaign 2004 is just more of the same, although I
agree that the continued growth of people with internet access inevitably has led to
more off-topic posts. It's just part of the price we pay, and I've gotten handier
using my kill file. The other thing is for us to stay resolutely on charter with our
posts and ignore all the others so that they swiftly die out, but that's a
restriction we've all broken at one time or another.

Of course, if anyone knows of a good restricted subscription mailing list for the
same subject with after-the-fact moderation that will eliminate the chaff, by all
means let's hear about it. Or if someone is willing to host and moderate one (again,
only after the fact if someone complains, by issuing warnings or if necessary
suspending/banning people's subscriptions), go for it. We could start one on Yahoo
easily enough, or for that matter, there are already several in the recreation and
sports/aviation/military category that might serve. I subscribe to a couple of
semi-related ones which have far higher S/N ratios than this or many other NGs, but
as usual they tend to be harder for new posters to find. But there's nothing
stopping us from placing a recurring ad for it here, much as the FAQ notice recurs.

Would there be enough interest to do so, or are we willing to wait out the current
storm of political bumph? Let's see a show of hands as to how many people here would
want to start such a group. If there are enough, I might even be willing to moderate
it (more accurately, control the subscription list), especially if I could get a few
other volunteers to help screen subscription applications. I can think of several
regular r.a.m. posters who wouldn't make the cut, thus lessening the message volume
and aggravation level considerably, or we could put membership applications up to a
vote.

Guy

Cub Driver

April 7th 04, 10:07 PM

>Of course, if anyone knows of a good restricted subscription mailing list for the
>same subject with after-the-fact moderation that will eliminate the chaff, by all
>means let's hear about it.

Moderated lists don't often work. One of the exceptions is the
moderated WWII newsgroup, but it has wide appeal and some dedicated
moderators.

There used to be and presumably still is a Vietnam war newsgroup,
which was ruined by one individual (Phill Coleman and his alter egos
of the American War Library) and the reaction of others posters to
him. It became so disheartening that someone started a moderated
Vietnam newsgroup--which died after a year or two.

I think Dudley got the grouch this morning. He will get over it and
come back. If not, somebody will turn up to take his place. Let's face
it, people just plain like to have their opinions in print, even if
only on a newsreader. That works for the trolls as well. But it's the
trolls in my experience who don't have the staying power. They'll go
away. Hatred is not a healthy emotion, and the Tilde Guy is clearly
consumed by hatred; he'll self-destruct sooner or later.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Guy Alcala

April 7th 04, 10:32 PM

Cub Driver wrote:

> >Of course, if anyone knows of a good restricted subscription mailing list for the
> >same subject with after-the-fact moderation that will eliminate the chaff, by all
> >means let's hear about it.
>
> Moderated lists don't often work.

<snip>

Quite agree, which is why I'm not suggesting one; I don't want to wait until the
moderator has read and passed on a message. A restricted-subscription list with a
clearly stated charter and rules of behavior is a beast of a different color.
Subscribers can post anything they want and it shows up within a few minutes just like
r.a.m., but if the post doesn't meet the standards and someone complains (or the
moderator happens to notice it and thinks the violation egregious enough), the
offender(s) is/are first warned/asked to take it elsewhere and then, if they continue
to abuse the rules, their posting privilieges are suspended/banned. The control is
virtually unnoticeable with a good moderator, and the ones I've been exposed to on the
mailing lists I subscribe to (for a decade or more in some cases) have all been
laissez-faire types who only take action when the violation is prolonged or completely
outside the pale. Usually just a reminder of the charter and request to take any
continued discussions elsewhere is enough to solve the problem.

There used to be and presumably still is a Vietnam war newsgroup,

> which was ruined by one individual (Phill Coleman and his alter egos
> of the American War Library) and the reaction of others posters to
> him. It became so disheartening that someone started a moderated
> Vietnam newsgroup--which died after a year or two.

With a restricted-subscription group, he would have been banned by the moderator and
the group would have happily continued on without him.

> I think Dudley got the grouch this morning. He will get over it and
> come back. If not, somebody will turn up to take his place. Let's face
> it, people just plain like to have their opinions in print, even if
> only on a newsreader. That works for the trolls as well. But it's the
> trolls in my experience who don't have the staying power. They'll go
> away. Hatred is not a healthy emotion, and the Tilde Guy is clearly
> consumed by hatred; he'll self-destruct sooner or later.

In his case, the kill file is your friend, and he's gone out of his way to be helpful
there ;-)

Guy

Stephen Harding

April 7th 04, 11:07 PM

Guy Alcala wrote:

> Would there be enough interest to do so, or are we willing to wait out the current
> storm of political bumph? Let's see a show of hands as to how many people here would
> want to start such a group. If there are enough, I might even be willing to moderate
> it (more accurately, control the subscription list), especially if I could get a few
> other volunteers to help screen subscription applications. I can think of several
> regular r.a.m. posters who wouldn't make the cut, thus lessening the message volume
> and aggravation level considerably, or we could put membership applications up to a
> vote.

As one of the regulars that wouldn't make the cut, I have
to say I enjoy reading and sometimes responding to the
whackos. Furthermore, there are several posters here that
are so danged knowledgeable in anything they write, that
it's like a "course in general knowledge", not just military
aviation.

I'm sticking here and just ignoring the whackos, or arguing
with them when it suits me.

This NG without a Michael Petukhov? No GWB nuking Iraq
with DU? No Confederate naval blockade of the North?

Just wouldn't be the same!

SMH

Boomer

April 7th 04, 11:34 PM

"A restricted-subscription list with a
clearly stated charter and rules of behavior is a beast of a different
color."
This sounds like a VERY good idea even if I dont make the cut. I'm not an
expert just an enthusiast.

--

Curiosity killed the cat, and I'm gonna find out why!
"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> Cub Driver wrote:
>
> > >Of course, if anyone knows of a good restricted subscription mailing
list for the
> > >same subject with after-the-fact moderation that will eliminate the
chaff, by all
> > >means let's hear about it.
> >
> > Moderated lists don't often work.
>
> <snip>
>
> Quite agree, which is why I'm not suggesting one; I don't want to wait
until the
> moderator has read and passed on a message. A restricted-subscription
list with a
> clearly stated charter and rules of behavior is a beast of a different
color.
> Subscribers can post anything they want and it shows up within a few
minutes just like
> r.a.m., but if the post doesn't meet the standards and someone complains
(or the
> moderator happens to notice it and thinks the violation egregious enough),
the
> offender(s) is/are first warned/asked to take it elsewhere and then, if
they continue
> to abuse the rules, their posting privilieges are suspended/banned. The
control is
> virtually unnoticeable with a good moderator, and the ones I've been
exposed to on the
> mailing lists I subscribe to (for a decade or more in some cases) have all
been
> laissez-faire types who only take action when the violation is prolonged
or completely
> outside the pale. Usually just a reminder of the charter and request to
take any
> continued discussions elsewhere is enough to solve the problem.
>
> There used to be and presumably still is a Vietnam war newsgroup,
>
> > which was ruined by one individual (Phill Coleman and his alter egos
> > of the American War Library) and the reaction of others posters to
> > him. It became so disheartening that someone started a moderated
> > Vietnam newsgroup--which died after a year or two.
>
> With a restricted-subscription group, he would have been banned by the
moderator and
> the group would have happily continued on without him.
>
> > I think Dudley got the grouch this morning. He will get over it and
> > come back. If not, somebody will turn up to take his place. Let's face
> > it, people just plain like to have their opinions in print, even if
> > only on a newsreader. That works for the trolls as well. But it's the
> > trolls in my experience who don't have the staying power. They'll go
> > away. Hatred is not a healthy emotion, and the Tilde Guy is clearly
> > consumed by hatred; he'll self-destruct sooner or later.
>
> In his case, the kill file is your friend, and he's gone out of his way to
be helpful
> there ;-)
>
> Guy
>
>

Peter Stickney

April 8th 04, 12:19 AM

In article >,
Ed Rasimus > writes:
> On Tue, 06 Apr 2004 16:37:14 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> > wrote:
>
>>Yama wrote:
>>> Amazing how adding just three lines to kill file made this group much more
>>> readable.
>>
>>
>>Exactomundo. A kill file, oddly enough, should be a living thing. I'm never
>>afraid to add to it. Generally speaking, a carefully chosen expression can have
>>almost universal effect, cleaning out pretty much all the crap and leaving the
>>rest intact.
>>
>>I would never let off topic stuff run me off. Filter it instead...
>
> While what you say is true, what Dudley has pointed out is true as
> well. I used to look forward each day to opening the newsreader and
> entering a discussion in R.A.M. Now, the group is filled with
> propagandists and petty bickering. The main posters are either
> anonymous twits trolling for other twits, or a half-dozen so-called
> experts who simply append one-liners to unedited 150 line posts
> calling each other fools.
>
> My kill-file grows daily, but much like spammers, the posting source
> keeps mutating and as soon as one mole gets whacked another pops out
> of a nearby hole.
>
> Unfortunately, after the kill-file does its work, there isn't much
> "there" there.

Ed,
It's tough, but, this too will pass. (Although the posting volumes
of some of the more egregious idiots is absolutely amazing. Tempest
managed to chunk out something like 30,000 posts in less than 6
months, at normalized volume of over 100/day. That kinda implies a
bit of multiple personality, as it were) I've found that the most
effective filter, other than the Usual Gang of Idiots, was to cit my
Crosspost Tolerance such that I was rejecting anything posted to
more than 4 groups.
As for the rest, I'll read a few, and, for the most part, pull my
steel pot over my ears and huddle in the bottom of my slit trench
until the barrage is over, which I expect most folks are doing.

The current Idiotstorm has done wonders for my World View, however.
I'd been worried for the longest time about how well the
U.S. Education System had been stacking up worldwide. The influx of
immaturity from various Europeans, A few select Aussies, and a
smattering of Canadians, (and, of course, Michael P.) have convinced
me that worldwide, we're not soing such a bad job.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Ed Rasimus

April 8th 04, 01:44 AM

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 19:19:00 -0400, (Peter Stickney)
wrote:

> The current Idiotstorm has done wonders for my World View, however.
> I'd been worried for the longest time about how well the
> U.S. Education System had been stacking up worldwide. The influx of
> immaturity from various Europeans, A few select Aussies, and a
> smattering of Canadians, (and, of course, Michael P.) have convinced
> me that worldwide, we're not soing such a bad job.
>

Even the darkest of clouds, does appear to have a silver lining.
Although, I'm sure a session or two in one of my political science
classes might cure your optimism.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Guy Alcala

April 8th 04, 04:29 AM

Stephen Harding wrote:

> Guy Alcala wrote:
>
> > Would there be enough interest to do so, or are we willing to wait out the current
> > storm of political bumph? Let's see a show of hands as to how many people here would
> > want to start such a group. If there are enough, I might even be willing to moderate
> > it (more accurately, control the subscription list), especially if I could get a few
> > other volunteers to help screen subscription applications. I can think of several
> > regular r.a.m. posters who wouldn't make the cut, thus lessening the message volume
> > and aggravation level considerably, or we could put membership applications up to a
> > vote.
>
> As one of the regulars that wouldn't make the cut,

Why wouldn't you? Are you a troll or loon, do you continuously post off-topic crap while
providing no valauble on-topic content, are incapable of reasoned debate so instead spew
personal insults, find it impossible to maintain basic standards of civil discourse, are
you a spammer? If you can answer no to all of the above (and the moderator has no evidence
to the contrary), you'd be in. You're not trying to make such a group elitists only, just
trying to screen out the more obnoxious wasters of bandwidth.

> I have
> to say I enjoy reading and sometimes responding to the
> whackos.

Googlegroups is definiely the place for that.

> Furthermore, there are several posters here that
> are so danged knowledgeable in anything they write, that
> it's like a "course in general knowledge", not just military
> aviation.

A reasonable amount of off-topic drift is okay, at least in the mailing lists I've
subscribed to. It's when it degenerates into childish, repetitive name-calling and/or only
a few people are involved/interested that it needs to be taken off the group. Continuing
by private email is always an option, one I've pursued a considerable amount over the
years.

> I'm sticking here and just ignoring the whackos, or arguing
> with them when it suits me.

Whatever floats your boat.

> This NG without a Michael Petukhov? No GWB nuking Iraq
> with DU? No Confederate naval blockade of the North?
>
> Just wouldn't be the same!

You say it as if that would be a bad thing;-) The biggest advantage to me of the
deja/google groups other than its accessibility is the archive search ability. It's the
closest thing in cyberspace to a permanent record, one that the average person can actually
use to find what they're looking for without having to winnow ALL the chaff.

Guy

Guy Alcala

April 8th 04, 04:35 AM

Boomer wrote:

> "A restricted-subscription list with a
> clearly stated charter and rules of behavior is a beast of a different
> color."
> This sounds like a VERY good idea even if I dont make the cut. I'm not an
> expert just an enthusiast.

Expertise isn't required, mainly just an interest in the subject matter plus
reasonably civilized behavior. See my reply to Stephen Harding. However, so far
it appears that most people are willing to hang on with r.a.m. until the latest
round of drivel decreases.

Guy

Tarver Engineering

April 8th 04, 05:28 AM

"Guy Alcala" > wrote in message
. ..
> Boomer wrote:
>
> > "A restricted-subscription list with a
> > clearly stated charter and rules of behavior is a beast of a different
> > color."
> > This sounds like a VERY good idea even if I dont make the cut. I'm not
an
> > expert just an enthusiast.
>
> Expertise isn't required, mainly just an interest in the subject matter
plus
> reasonably civilized behavior. See my reply to Stephen Harding. However,
so far
> it appears that most people are willing to hang on with r.a.m. until the
latest
> round of drivel decreases.

Henriques is no big loss.

Cub Driver

April 8th 04, 10:22 AM

>This NG without a Michael Petukhov? No GWB nuking Iraq
>with DU? No Confederate naval blockade of the North?

When you put it like that, my affection for the ng returns!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Cub Driver

April 8th 04, 10:24 AM

> I'd been worried for the longest time about how well the
> U.S. Education System had been stacking up worldwide. The influx of
> immaturity from various Europeans, A few select Aussies, and a
> smattering of Canadians, (and, of course, Michael P.) have convinced
> me that worldwide, we're not soing such a bad job.

Yes, I'll try to bear this in mind also.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

April 8th 04, 11:20 AM

Guy Alcala wrote:
> Why wouldn't you? Are you a troll or loon, do you continuously post
> off-topic crap while providing no valauble on-topic content, are incapable of
> reasoned debate so instead spew personal insults, find it impossible to
> maintain basic standards of civil discourse, are you a spammer? If you can
> answer no to all of the above (and the moderator has no evidence to the
> contrary), you'd be in. You're not trying to make such a group elitists
> only, just trying to screen out the more obnoxious wasters of bandwidth.

I am reminded of my father's experiences with the WWII moderated newsgroup.
He's been edited out on several occasions because his postings didn't fit the
tightly mandated quote/new material specifications. I can remember on one
occasion where he was edited out because he replied to somebody else's OT post,
even thought the original OT post made it through.

The moderator in question was an academic by trade and a bureaucrat by tendency.
My father was, OTOH, a veteran. It would seem to me he might have something to
offer that group. Not so, according to their moderator.

That's why I don't, as a general rule, subscribe to moderated groups. Besides,
I wouldn't belong to any club that'd have me as a member. <G>

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

Tarver Engineering

April 8th 04, 03:31 PM

"Cub Driver" > wrote in message
...
>
> >This NG without a Michael Petukhov? No GWB nuking Iraq
> >with DU? No Confederate naval blockade of the North?
>
> When you put it like that, my affection for the ng returns!

Didn't you pull the same whiney **** Henriques is now not long ago, Dan

Jeff Crowell

April 8th 04, 04:10 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> Even the darkest of clouds, does appear to have a silver lining.
> Although, I'm sure a session or two in one of my political science
> classes might cure your optimism.

Hmmm. As something of a masochist in that regard, I
find that sort of appealing in a twisted way (who knew? ;-) ).

Any chance your Poli Sci class is offered via Distance
Learning? It'd be nice to take a bull course for once, having
just finished a Masters in Mech E that way.

Jeff

Cub Driver

April 8th 04, 08:42 PM

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 10:20:00 GMT, "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
> wrote:

>I am reminded of my father's experiences with the WWII moderated newsgroup.
>He's been edited out on several occasions because his postings didn't fit the
>tightly mandated quote/new material specifications.

Yes, this has happened to all of us. I recall Art B-26 bailing out in
fury because they rejected one of his posts. And I have more than one
replied to a rejection with the dignified response: IDIOT! (My
favorite one was when I replied to a request for information, and was
told that my information didn't relate to WWII... So why did they
admit the question?)

However, they have gotten much more generous in recent months.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Ed Rasimus

April 8th 04, 09:41 PM

On Thu, 8 Apr 2004 09:10:42 -0600, "Jeff Crowell"
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>> Even the darkest of clouds, does appear to have a silver lining.
>> Although, I'm sure a session or two in one of my political science
>> classes might cure your optimism.
>
>Hmmm. As something of a masochist in that regard, I
>find that sort of appealing in a twisted way (who knew? ;-) ).
>
>Any chance your Poli Sci class is offered via Distance
>Learning? It'd be nice to take a bull course for once, having
>just finished a Masters in Mech E that way.
>
As a political scientist, the answer to all questions is inevitably,
"yes and no."

This semester, I'm doing POS 111 American Government and POS 125 State
& Local Government as online courses. They are taught with an
incredible software called Blackboard which is relatively easy to use
and offers a lot of course flexibility. This semester ends in May. The
American Government course will run this summer.

This fall, I may not be doing teaching any more. It's one of those
"adjunct vs full-time faculty vs retirement" issues. As an adjunct,
I've drawn a line in the sand noting that I teach as many classes as
full time, but at a fraction of the compensation. If I leave the
school, there won't be any online Political Science classes in the
fall.

If serious, you might explore www.ppcc.edu for the catalog and
requirements. Recognize that this is a freshman level course.

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Chad Irby

April 8th 04, 10:28 PM

In article >,
Ed Rasimus > wrote:

> As a political scientist, the answer to all questions is inevitably,
> "yes and no."

Well...

Maybe.

--
cirby at cfl.rr.com

Remember: Objects in rearview mirror may be hallucinations.
Slam on brakes accordingly.

Ed Rasimus

April 8th 04, 11:06 PM

On Thu, 08 Apr 2004 21:28:40 GMT, Chad Irby > wrote:

>In article >,
> Ed Rasimus > wrote:
>
>> As a political scientist, the answer to all questions is inevitably,
>> "yes and no."
>
>Well...
>
>Maybe.

That would be waffling and indecisive. I'm quite assertive and
positive about the inherent correctness of "yes and no."

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Guy Alcala

April 8th 04, 11:43 PM

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:

> Guy Alcala wrote:
> > Why wouldn't you? Are you a troll or loon, do you continuously post
> > off-topic crap while providing no valauble on-topic content, are incapable of
> > reasoned debate so instead spew personal insults, find it impossible to
> > maintain basic standards of civil discourse, are you a spammer? If you can
> > answer no to all of the above (and the moderator has no evidence to the
> > contrary), you'd be in. You're not trying to make such a group elitists
> > only, just trying to screen out the more obnoxious wasters of bandwidth.
>
> I am reminded of my father's experiences with the WWII moderated newsgroup.
> He's been edited out on several occasions because his postings didn't fit the
> tightly mandated quote/new material specifications. I can remember on one
> occasion where he was edited out because he replied to somebody else's OT post,
> even thought the original OT post made it through.
>
> The moderator in question was an academic by trade and a bureaucrat by tendency.
> My father was, OTOH, a veteran. It would seem to me he might have something to
> offer that group. Not so, according to their moderator.
>
> That's why I don't, as a general rule, subscribe to moderated groups. Besides,
> I wouldn't belong to any club that'd have me as a member. <G>

None of which applies to a restricted-subscription mailing list (group) with no
moderator passing judgement on posts in advance. There is no "moderator" such as
you describe above for such a group, just an administrator. There is _no_ vetting
of posts in advance, none. The sole control such an adminstrator has over posts is
to suspend/ban the poster from making further posts.

Personally, while I certainly agree that quoting a several hundred line post only to
append "Me too" is a waste of bandwidth, I can see no need to impose strict
guidelines -- common sense and when necessary, gentle reminders should be enough.
More often than not such reminders (often less than gentle) will be made by the
other posters, as happens on r.a.m. now. If setting such limits is considered
necessary then they can always be negotiated, but again, they seem completely
unnecessary to me given the nature of such a group.

ISTM that your freservations are based on both a misconception of the nature of such
a group, as well as the experience of dealing with a moderator into empire-building.
None of the groups I've subscribed to suffers from such problems, both because the
whole set-up eliminates most such problems, and because the moderators are
enthusiasts themselves, who are endowed with common sense and who are well-balanced
enough not to need to be "Yertle the Turtle" on some discussion list.

In any case this all appears to be moot, as it appears that most people are willing
to ride out the chaff storm rather than bail.

Guy

Peter Stickney

April 9th 04, 01:31 AM

In article >,
Ed Rasimus > writes:

In Re: the current public demonstrations of World Class Idiocy

> Even the darkest of clouds, does appear to have a silver lining.
> Although, I'm sure a session or two in one of my political science
> classes might cure your optimism.

Perhaps. I've kind of a skewed perspective on that, though, coming
from the State that's the first stop for the Primary Circus.

We get 'em all - from Candidates (Ranging from George W. to Tom "Billy
Jack" Laughlin) to Campaign Workers (There I was, walking down Elm
St. in MHT, when suddenly out of the Sun drops Carrot Top, with a full
head of steam & a handful of Kunecich flyers! I jinked left, behing
the CNBC truck, and...) and, worst of all, the Reporters. Oddly
enough, Comedy Central's "The Daily Show" was a lot closer to reality
than almost everyone else. You can't help but step into something.
That, and a long history of Participatory Politics. (Town Meetings
are still a big deal, up here. And that's where the budget gets voted
in, Line Item by Line Item. If you're gonna bitch about your taxes,
then you dhould have gone to the Meeting & voted against something.)

But - out of that has come an early awareness of Political Dynamics,
and the Evolution Thereof. Or, more to the point, we end up having
to explain it all to the incoming transplants.

You'd think that you'd be able to get them interested, though. The
U.S. Constitution, and most State Constitutions, are fascinating
examples of how to design feedback into a system - the balancing act
between the Executive, Legislative, and Judicial, for example, or the
clever and subtle weighting of the design of the Electoral College to
just shade things a bit against the Tyranny of the Majority. Those
Founding Father guys were damned clever - they found a way to make the
baser levels of human behavior mimic the behavior that would be
desired in the more enlightened.

Actually, Ed, I'd love to sit in on one of your courses, If I were
ever to be out to Colorado - just to see the expressions on their
faces.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

Cub Driver

April 9th 04, 11:19 AM

> As an adjunct,
>I've drawn a line in the sand noting that I teach as many classes as
>full time, but at a fraction of the compensation.

A while ago, my daughter was in an English graduate program, teaching
one freshman English course for her fellowship. She loved the
teaching, more than the graduate work, but gave up the thought of
making a career out of it when she learned that as a lecturer she
would be teaching four courses at little more than twice the value of
her fellowship.

So she became a foredeck hand on a around-the-world sailboat race :)

Thus are career decisions made!

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

Stephen Harding

April 9th 04, 12:12 PM

Cub Driver wrote:

> So she became a foredeck hand on a around-the-world sailboat race :)

Sailboat crew?? Excellent choice!

If she's ever down Fairhaven (New Bedford, MA) way, I can always
use a crewmember.

I "race" around Buzzard's Bay and the Elizabeth's at about 6
knots on a "fast day", nonetheless, I *always* seem to win!

Funny about that!

I've spent a lot of time at sea, much of it under not so nice
conditions, yet I'm still envious of her. What a clever gal
you have!

SMH

SteveM8597

April 9th 04, 01:52 PM

Ya gotta just love the email filters and spam blockers. Put in a few key words
and writers on the list and it becomes a good group again. I filtered it down
from 151 msgs to 28 on topic in three minites

The ration of junk to on topic msgs seems to be about 5 junk to 1 good.

Jeff Crowell

April 9th 04, 02:10 PM

Ed Rasimus wrote:
> This semester, I'm doing POS 111 American Government and POS 125 State
> & Local Government as online courses. They are taught with an
> incredible software called Blackboard which is relatively easy to use
> and offers a lot of course flexibility.

I've used Blackboard and it is, indeed, excellent.

> If I leave the
> school, there won't be any online Political Science classes in the
> fall.

Ah well. Undoubtedly the optimism-curing effects are
much greater in class than over the wires. That's really
what I wanted to see. I would pay lots to attend a class
or two with my elder son, who is now a sophomore (in
more ways than one, I sometimes think). Odd points of
view that boy has, and all joking aside, I dunno where he
got 'em... still, I am definitely an optimist at heart. Versus
the wife, who is, as she says, "a realist."

Jeff

Ed Rasimus

April 9th 04, 03:48 PM

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 07:10:32 -0600, "Jeff Crowell"
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:

>> If I leave the
>> school, there won't be any online Political Science classes in the
>> fall.
>
>Ah well. Undoubtedly the optimism-curing effects are
>much greater in class than over the wires. That's really
>what I wanted to see. I would pay lots to attend a class
>or two with my elder son, who is now a sophomore (in
>more ways than one, I sometimes think). Odd points of
>view that boy has, and all joking aside, I dunno where he
>got 'em... still, I am definitely an optimist at heart. Versus
>the wife, who is, as she says, "a realist."

As a student in the class, it is not as easy to have your optimism
shattered, since you don't see the literary efforts (or lack thereof)
from your classmates. Online, you also don't get as much of the impact
of blank stares that greet such overhead questions as "does anyone
here read Hemingway"" or, has anyone seen the movie Patton, Dr.
Strangelove, The Last Emperor, Seven Days in May.....

Probably my lowest expectations were unmet the time, on Nov. 11th, I
asked the class what was significant about the day. Few knew, until
after prompting that it was some kind of holiday, one student
remembered it was Veteran's Day. When asked if they had ever heard it
called Armistice Day, none had. Asked why it was 11/11, they didn't
know that the armistice to end the "War to End All Wars" had been
signed at 11:00 AM on 11/11. When asked which war that was, they
guessed Vietnam, Korea and the Civil War.....all high-school grads and
all enrolled in college! Amazing, isn't it?

There are always bright spots, of course.

Your wife probably went to the same school as mine, who regularly
quotes a professor who liked to say to his idealistic under-grads,
"it's not right, but it's real!"

Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Tex Houston

April 9th 04, 04:20 PM

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Rasimus" >

> As a student in the class, it is not as easy to have your optimism
> shattered, since you don't see the literary efforts (or lack thereof)
> from your classmates. Online, you also don't get as much of the impact
> of blank stares that greet such overhead questions as "does anyone
> here read Hemingway"" or, has anyone seen the movie Patton, Dr.
> Strangelove, The Last Emperor, Seven Days in May.....
>
> Probably my lowest expectations were unmet the time, on Nov. 11th, I
> asked the class what was significant about the day. Few knew, until
> after prompting that it was some kind of holiday, one student
> remembered it was Veteran's Day. When asked if they had ever heard it
> called Armistice Day, none had. Asked why it was 11/11, they didn't
> know that the armistice to end the "War to End All Wars" had been
> signed at 11:00 AM on 11/11. When asked which war that was, they
> guessed Vietnam, Korea and the Civil War.....all high-school grads and
> all enrolled in college! Amazing, isn't it?
>
> There are always bright spots, of course.
>
> Your wife probably went to the same school as mine, who regularly
> quotes a professor who liked to say to his idealistic under-grads,
> "it's not right, but it's real!"
>
>
>
> Ed Rasimus

Ed,

I have a lot of hours in college and the thing I liked about community
colleges and commuter campuses was the mix of students you encountered. The
students who entered directly out of high school, with few exceptions, had
little to contribute. Without some life experience their horizons were very
close.

Perhaps no student should be permitted to attend college until they had
worked a couple of years to smooth over some of the unfinished edges. I was
particularly struck by a literature class where we had just read "Death of a
Ball-turret Gunner" by Randall Jarrell when one of the older students spoke
up and described his experiences as a WW-II ball-turret gunner.

I'm sure my USAF travels did not handicap me in class.

Regards,

Tex Houston

Jeff Crowell

April 9th 04, 09:35 PM

Tex Houston wrote:
> I have a lot of hours in college and the thing I liked about community
> colleges and commuter campuses was the mix of students you encountered.
The
> students who entered directly out of high school, with few exceptions, had
> little to contribute. Without some life experience their horizons were
very
> close.

So very true. After I got out of the Navy I went back to school to
correct previous errors (I got the worng degree the first time
'round). So I knocked out the Mech E program in 2 years. I had
very little in common with the "regular" students, who were not
that much younger than I (I was 28, these were juniors and
seniors). We had very different goals.

> Perhaps no student should be permitted to attend college until they had
> worked a couple of years to smooth over some of the unfinished edges. I
was
> particularly struck by a literature class where we had just read "Death of
a
> Ball-turret Gunner" by Randall Jarrell when one of the older students
spoke
> up and described his experiences as a WW-II ball-turret gunner.

What a priceless gift!

Jeff

José Herculano

April 9th 04, 10:43 PM

> My kill-file grows daily, but much like spammers, the posting source
> keeps mutating and as soon as one mole gets whacked another pops out
> of a nearby hole.

I have rules of fame and rules of shame. The killfile is pretty big, yes,
but I also have "positive rules", that highlight in red the posts from the
people I always enjoy reading. Granted it is a lot of black and precious few
red lines, but then again, quality counts ;-)
_____________
José Herculano

Dave Kearton

April 9th 04, 11:05 PM

"Tex Houston" > wrote in message
...
|
|
| I have a lot of hours in college and the thing I liked about community
| colleges and commuter campuses was the mix of students you encountered.
The
| students who entered directly out of high school, with few exceptions, had
| little to contribute. Without some life experience their horizons were
very
| close.
|
| Perhaps no student should be permitted to attend college until they had
| worked a couple of years to smooth over some of the unfinished edges. I
was
| particularly struck by a literature class where we had just read "Death of
a
| Ball-turret Gunner" by Randall Jarrell when one of the older students
spoke
| up and described his experiences as a WW-II ball-turret gunner.
|
| I'm sure my USAF travels did not handicap me in class.
|
| Regards,
|
| Tex Houston
|
|

"When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose"

I was about 11 when I read that for the first time, the poem was like a
short, sharp slap in the face.

Gets your attention quickly.

--

Regards

Dave Kearton

Paul J. Adam

April 9th 04, 11:15 PM

In message >, Tex Houston
> writes
>I have a lot of hours in college and the thing I liked about community
>colleges and commuter campuses was the mix of students you encountered. The
>students who entered directly out of high school, with few exceptions, had
>little to contribute. Without some life experience their horizons were very
>close.

I went to university almost right from school, with one year of work
experience intervening.

Just over a decade later, I went back into academe to do a Master's,
having been in full-time gainful employment until then (and during the
course, it being a part-time degree). I gained *much* more from the
second course, most of it from my fellow students (which is no
disrespect to the excellent tutors).

>Perhaps no student should be permitted to attend college until they had
>worked a couple of years to smooth over some of the unfinished edges.

I was interested to see who pressed the course and graduated on time,
and who delayed and deferred. I was very surprised by some of my fellow
students: some I'd expected to fail graduated on time beside me, others
I was sure would excel were no-shows for reasons never stated.

And I learned a *lot* from my colleagues on the course, much more so
than I did getting my BEng.

>I'm sure my USAF travels did not handicap me in class.

One of my fellow students was a former RN submariner. He at least I feel
deferred because he was a perfectionist: he was going to submit his
dissertation when it was ready, and if he could cheaply get an extra
year then he'd take the time to polish the cannonball to a fine gloss.

I personally think he was wrong, but that's just opinion. (I feel that I
was given a deadline, and I met it... I might have got a distinction
with another year of editing and honing, or I might have reduced my
dissertation to meaningless pap by eliminating everything controversial.
Whatever... I submitted on time and passed)

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Paul J. Adam

April 9th 04, 11:38 PM

In message >, Ed Rasimus
> writes
>Probably my lowest expectations were unmet the time, on Nov. 11th, I
>asked the class what was significant about the day. Few knew, until
>after prompting that it was some kind of holiday, one student
>remembered it was Veteran's Day. When asked if they had ever heard it
>called Armistice Day, none had. Asked why it was 11/11, they didn't
>know that the armistice to end the "War to End All Wars" had been
>signed at 11:00 AM on 11/11. When asked which war that was, they
>guessed Vietnam, Korea and the Civil War.....all high-school grads and
>all enrolled in college! Amazing, isn't it?

Yeah, but...

WW1 wasn't a critical win-or-die for the US. Meanwhile, ask your typical
class of UK under-18s what happened at Appotamox (probably spelled that
one wrong... shows how much I know!), or why Gettysburg was significant,
or about just about anything about the War Between The States or the War
Of Those Ungrateful Rebellious American *******s Forsaking Our
Enlightened Rule (I'm sure there's a more politic US phrase for both of
those :) )

For that matter, ask your typical UK under-18 to find the Somme or Ypres
and they'll probably point to somewhere in the Middle East (it was a big
fight and that's where we fight our wars, right?). Let's not even start
on trying to pin Spion Kop or Omduran or Balaklava on the map, even for
UK students. (Let's be modern: where's Imphal, where's Goose Green,
where's Neuve Chapelle, where's Dhofar?)

There's a lot of UK history I don't actually know jack about, let alone
other countries'. I console myself by admitting ignorance and trying to
learn when I feel the need: or, in areas that interest me, by bothering
those with experience.

I'd suggest that basic school education isn't necessarily able to
provide detailed world history (my World History O-level covered the
Russian and Chinese revolutions, the economic and political buildup to
WW2, and the Arab-Israeli conflicts: good stuff and I really enjoyed it,
helped by a good teacher, but how much of the 20th century's woes went
ignored if that's all you think about?) but to at least let the student
know that there aren't usually quick, simple soundbite answers to the
problems of the real world and to give some idea of where to look to
learn more if you're interested.

And I admire and respect teachers as a general rule. Tough job with few
thanks.

It's late, I'm tired and emotional, I'm rambling. All opinions above
have been assayed as worth at best $0.02.

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

phil hunt

April 10th 04, 03:45 PM

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 23:38:19 +0100, Paul J. Adam > wrote:
>For that matter, ask your typical UK under-18 to find the Somme or Ypres
>and they'll probably point to somewhere in the Middle East (it was a big
>fight and that's where we fight our wars, right?). Let's not even start
>on trying to pin Spion Kop or Omduran or Balaklava on the map, even for
>UK students. (Let's be modern: where's Imphal, where's Goose Green,
>where's Neuve Chapelle, where's Dhofar?)

Not forgetting the 11% of Brits who think Hitler was fictional.

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)

D. Strang

April 10th 04, 08:14 PM

shut up

Paul J. Adam

April 11th 04, 12:14 PM

In message >, phil hunt
> writes
>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 23:38:19 +0100, Paul J. Adam <news@jrwlync
>h.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Let's not even start
>>on trying to pin Spion Kop or Omduran or Balaklava on the map, even for
>>UK students. (Let's be modern: where's Imphal, where's Goose Green,
>>where's Neuve Chapelle, where's Dhofar?)
>
>Not forgetting the 11% of Brits who think Hitler was fictional.

No, he was real, he commanded the Orcs at Helm's Deep...

--
When you have to kill a man, it costs nothing to be polite.
W S Churchill

Paul J. Adam MainBox<at>jrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

Alan Minyard

April 11th 04, 09:17 PM

On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 23:38:19 +0100, "Paul J. Adam" > wrote:

>
>WW1 wasn't a critical win-or-die for the US. Meanwhile, ask your typical
>class of UK under-18s what happened at Appotamox (probably spelled that
>one wrong... shows how much I know!), or why Gettysburg was significant,
>or about just about anything about the War Between The States or the War
>Of Those Ungrateful Rebellious American *******s Forsaking Our
>Enlightened Rule (I'm sure there's a more politic US phrase for both of
>those :) )
>
>For that matter, ask your typical UK under-18 to find the Somme or Ypres
>and they'll probably point to somewhere in the Middle East (it was a big
>fight and that's where we fight our wars, right?). Let's not even start
>on trying to pin Spion Kop or Omduran or Balaklava on the map, even for
>UK students. (Let's be modern: where's Imphal, where's Goose Green,
>where's Neuve Chapelle, where's Dhofar?)
>
>
>
>There's a lot of UK history I don't actually know jack about, let alone
>other countries'. I console myself by admitting ignorance and trying to
>learn when I feel the need: or, in areas that interest me, by bothering
>those with experience.
>
>
>I'd suggest that basic school education isn't necessarily able to
>provide detailed world history (my World History O-level covered the
>Russian and Chinese revolutions, the economic and political buildup to
>WW2, and the Arab-Israeli conflicts: good stuff and I really enjoyed it,
>helped by a good teacher, but how much of the 20th century's woes went
>ignored if that's all you think about?) but to at least let the student
>know that there aren't usually quick, simple soundbite answers to the
>problems of the real world and to give some idea of where to look to
>learn more if you're interested.
>
>
>And I admire and respect teachers as a general rule. Tough job with few
>thanks.
>
>
>It's late, I'm tired and emotional, I'm rambling. All opinions above
>have been assayed as worth at best $0.02.

Completely agree, that is why we have historians. If one tried to
gain a comprehensive knowledge of world history they would
never complete the quest, just too much for one individual to
absorb.

Al Minyard

phil hunt

April 11th 04, 11:02 PM

On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 12:14:17 +0100, Paul J. Adam > wrote:
>In message >, phil hunt
> writes
>>On Fri, 9 Apr 2004 23:38:19 +0100, Paul J. Adam <news@jrwlync
>>h.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>Let's not even start
>>>on trying to pin Spion Kop or Omduran or Balaklava on the map, even for
>>>UK students. (Let's be modern: where's Imphal, where's Goose Green,
>>>where's Neuve Chapelle, where's Dhofar?)
>>
>>Not forgetting the 11% of Brits who think Hitler was fictional.
>
>No, he was real, he commanded the Orcs at Helm's Deep...

Er, wasn't that Conan the Barbarian?

--
"It's easier to find people online who openly support the KKK than
people who openly support the RIAA" -- comment on Wikipedia
(Email: zen19725 at zen dot co dot uk)