Beginner, Parachutes?

[vic20owner]

Dumb beginner question follows:

I am just starting out flying gliders.... Here in the USA it seems
nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
aerobatics. However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
plan and a parachute seems reasonable. I suppose a history of cave
diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. I realize
flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
other.

Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke? ;)

thanks

[[email protected]]

On Nov 20, 8:57*am, vic20owner > wrote:
> Dumb beginner question follows:
>
> I am just starting out flying gliders.... * Here in the USA it seems
> nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
> aerobatics. *However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
> plan and a parachute seems reasonable. *I suppose a history of cave
> diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. *I realize
> flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
> other.
>
> Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
> lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke? ;)
>
> thanks

Depends on the club culture. Also, it's considered poor taste to be
the only occupant of an aircraft wearing a parachute so while taking
instruction you'd need 2. Maybe the club already has a couple chutes
that are only worn for aerobatics and you can ask to use them for
regular instructional flights. Might raise some eyebrows. Once you
are near to solo I'd say go for it and get yourself a chute and learn
how to use it. With a background in cave diving I'd say your risk
management thinking is probably more developed than most regular
humans pilots included! My personal experience indicates that the
best place to shop for parachutes is http://www.silverparachutes.com/.
Whether you can afford new or used you will get the best service from
Alan. Beware the killer deal on a used chute from anyone else.

Now you really want to raise eyebrows? Ask about parachutes in
powered general aviation. They will think you are a loony (unless
it's aerobatics) in which case they will really think you are a loony.

Matt Michael

[Malcolm Austin]

A few years ago I jumped into a K8 that had just arrived at our club.

It had almost an arm chair as a seat, so no room for a parachute. It was a
great day in mid summer so 10 minutes later I'm at nearly 7000'. Nice
flight and I came down to jump into my K6 to get my silver height gain,
which was duly done.

Arrived home to find my S & G magazine had arrived. Read the accidents
page and saw about a UK accident where a parachutist had hit the wing of
a K8 which then spun in. It must have taken quite a few seconds in descent
for that K8 to reach the ground, as he had no parachute.

I've never flown since if there was ever a chance of getting above winch
launch height. Yes some will laugh, but they did that we got seat belts in
cars didn't they?

I once was a passenger in about 1967 where we smashed into the side of a
car that jumped the lights. It was only at 20 mph and I was ready with my
hands on the dash, I still got a bloody nose when hitting the windscreen.
I learnt then that belts were a good thing, But you can't get such a
warning in
a glider hitting the ground. Parachutes fulfil the same function, so why not
use
one?

I do not agree with the safety police policies, but some things just seem to
be about
right!




"vic20owner" > wrote in message
...
> Dumb beginner question follows:
>
> I am just starting out flying gliders.... Here in the USA it seems
> nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
> aerobatics. However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
> plan and a parachute seems reasonable. I suppose a history of cave
> diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. I realize
> flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
> other.
>
> Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
> lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke? ;)
>
> thanks

[vic20owner]

> I've never flown since if there was ever a chance of getting above winch
> launch height. Yes some will laugh, but they did that we got seat belts in
> cars didn't they?

Hi Malcom, I think you meant to say you've never flown without one
since. Just wanted to clarify that.

Thanks
-tom

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 20, 7:57*am, vic20owner > wrote:
*
> nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
> aerobatics. *

No, that's just not true. You will find that almost all pilots that
own their own gliders and also fly cross county will wear a
parachute. Maybe some of them got into that habit because they also
fly contests in which parachutes are required. More likely they wear
parachutes because the glider was designed to use a parachute as part
of the seat back. Some pilots even like to think they have an option
if something goes wrong in flight.

Andy

[toad]

This is also my experience, everybody who owns a glider also has a
parachute. The clubs (that I know) don't own parachutes and most non-
owners don't either.

Todd

[[email protected]]

On Nov 20, 10:16*am, toad > wrote:
> This is also my experience, everybody who owns a glider also has a
> parachute. *The clubs (that I know) don't own parachutes and most non-
> owners don't either.
>
> Todd

i started wearing a parachute when i bought the Cherokee. It just
seemed like a good idea, plus the glider is like 45 yrs old and built
out of wood, and I was going to be flying it XC. Since then there was
one day where I flew it and didnt have my parachute. I dont remember
why, it just wasnt around or something. Most nervous flight i've ever
been on. Can't explain it, Ive got over 2000 hrs in powered aircraft
without wearing a chute but I just wasnt comfortable in the glider
without it. Of course I will fly the club's Blanik and 2-22 without a
chute and never have a problem. I think part of the (psychological)
problem that I have is that the Cherokee is so quiet I can HEAR other
airplanes before I can see them. and the visibility, especially
towards the rear, is lousy. So now I always wear my parachute.

tony

[Malcolm Austin]

No, I actually meant it the way it came out.

At my old club on a bad day, we might get 800 feet on the winch.
I never felt that if I had a problem, I'd be able to get out of the
glider and deploy the 'chute in time. So that was the time I might
not bother with the 'chute. But you can be sure that if conditions
showed the slightest possibility of being better the I'd be prepared!



"vic20owner" > wrote in message
...
>> I've never flown since if there was ever a chance of getting above winch
>> launch height. Yes some will laugh, but they did that we got seat belts
>> in
>> cars didn't they?
>
> Hi Malcom, I think you meant to say you've never flown without one
> since. Just wanted to clarify that.
>
> Thanks
> -tom

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 20, 9:51*am, wrote:
>I think part of the (psychological)
>problem that I have is that the Cherokee is so quiet I can HEAR other
>airplanes before I can see them.

At my first contest there was a mid air and one pilot died. At my
second contest I was searching for the first turnpoint when I heard
another glider go past before I saw him. It made a lasting impression
on me.

Andy

[noel.wade]

Bottom-line: Wearing a parachute is a personal choice (in the USA); so
if others choose not to wear one, that's their perogative. You should
feel free to do what you feel is best and safest - not what will make
you popular or fashionable around others. If your club members
ridicule you for trying to be safe, then it's the wrong club to be
associated with!

Take care,

--Noel

[vic20owner]

Well, then it sounds like I should buy a parachute after I solo!

[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:51:50 -0800 (PST), wrote:
[snip]
>chute and never have a problem. I think part of the (psychological)
>problem that I have is that the Cherokee is so quiet I can HEAR other
>airplanes before I can see them.

I'll see your "hear other airplanes" and raise you one...I've heard a
GLIDER from a glider. Right after I heard its towplane. NMAC's don't
get any more N than that one...

rj

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 20, 7:57*am, vic20owner > wrote:
> Dumb beginner question follows:
>
> I am just starting out flying gliders.... * Here in the USA it seems
> nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
> aerobatics. *However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
> plan and a parachute seems reasonable. *I suppose a history of cave
> diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. *I realize
> flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
> other.
>
> Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
> lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke? ;)
>
> thanks

As most pilots come to injury or grief in the landing phase where a
parachute is not a factor, use during training with an instructor is
generally not a factor. Use during competitions and aerobatics does
reflect on the somewhat increased risk associated with types of
flying. That doesn't mean that the rare event where a parachute made
a difference doesn't occur. As mentioned, use by a single person in a
two-seater is generally bad form unless perhaps strapped to a
lightweight person for ballasting purposes. One club took the
position that all training flights would use parachutes and that
policy was fortuitous for the instructor and student when their glider
was hit by a lightning bolt that struck five miles from the cloud,
causing the glider to 'explode'. However, there have been many more
accidents caused at altitudes below parachute effectiveness through
failure to fly the aircraft when finding the canopy unlatched.
Several injuries and fatals have resulted from spins during training
flights, just to compare risks. A German study once concluded that
survival in an incident requiring parachute use below 600m agl was
very low. That said, some emergency chutes are very effective at low
altitudes with good horizontal speed. Not long ago there was a mid-
air between a glider and a jet, the glider pilot survived using his
chute. Several years ago there was a mid-air in the same region, that
pilot was not wearing a chute, but managed to limp back to the the
airport with a fuselage that was nearly severed by the impact. This
past summer there was a mid-air during a competition in the US where
one of the pilots successfully hit the silk and the other was able to
fly back to a safe landings. Note it was during competition, one of
the increased risk scenarios. Several years ago a pilot with a folded
up wing rode his glider into the trees in Florida. Most of these are
rare happenings.

I normally don't wear a chute in the club two-seaters, but I do wear
one in my own gliders. I'm unlikely to use one unless I know the
primary structure has failed. Even then, I have to consider the
outcomes. I bought one of these while flying in the UK http://tinyurl.com/64btg9
Why? Because it's a comfortable chair type chute and my first choice
was several months backordered http://tinyurl.com/55t3fz and I didn't
wish to wait. At the time they were separate companies. Look at the
performance differences. As I fly in the US west mostly, my current
chute is unlikely to allow a landing without injury over the
elevations where we fly. The EB80 is quite a bit different in pack
and performance and will probably be my choice for a replacement one
of these days. About 30 years ago, a pilot doing a high speed pass in
an Open Cirrus VTC fluttered it to pieces. He departed the glider at
about 100ft at 100kts and landed safely in his EB80. No interest in
the company, but a fondness for this rig. I wore one for three years
of flying an SHK. Other pilots will have an appreciation for chutes
that have served them well. A little history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caterpillar_Club

Frank Whiteley

[sisu1a]

On Nov 20, 10:02*am, vic20owner > wrote:
> Well, then it sounds like I should buy a parachute after I solo!

Actually, since it sounds like you plan on sticking with soaring
(great to hear!) and want a chute, it is never too early to begin
getting used to the care/feeding/operation of a potential critical
life saving device. Buy a chute now and wear it proudly. It makes a
lot more sense to take up the empty space between you and the seatback
with a chute than with crusty club cushions or dirty laundry! I
recommend a Softie as they are very comfortable and have the slowest
decent rate per canopy diameter.

I bought a National for my first chute since I figured I would get
the cheapest chute I could lacking information otherwise. My National
is NOT comfortable on longer flights and never really 'broke in' and
got any better. It also has the highest decent rate/canopy diameter
since it has the least amount of panels/risers which makes the
deployed canopy draw tighter, into smaller diameter and thus be less
effective (in addition to using more porous fabric). A lot of people
swear by Strong chutes, and their track record shows they do indeed
work. I find them overly bulky myself, and (supposedly...) the design
has not been updated since it's inception, despite many material and
technique advances in the industry. There are others of course too,
but those are the 'big three' available at most US glider related
outlets. Any is better than none, as there are more members of the
'caterpiller club' here than we would like to think.

-Paul

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 20, 10:59*am, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> Bottom-line: Wearing a parachute is a personal choice (in the USA); so
> if others choose not to wear one, that's their perogative. You should
> feel free to do what you feel is best and safest - not what will make
> you popular or fashionable around others. If your club members
> ridicule you for trying to be safe, then it's the wrong club to be
> associated with!
>
> Take care,
>
> --Noel

You might enjoy this thread
http://tinyurl.com/5coak4

[Tim Mara[_2_]]

not a dumb question at all!
having already bailed out of one glider and successfully survived the ordeal
I find it very uncomfortable to fly without one...in fact for many years
found it uncomfortable to even fly with one!..
at the time, I too was in a club that quite frankly didn't use parachutes,
some there even made some remarks because I did...but none the less, almost
all gliders are designed for parachutes to be used in them, most flight
manuals calculated weight and balance takes this into account and requires
you to either wear a parachute or add cushions to put you in the same
position...makes little sense to have cushions behind you when the wings
come apart!
If you continue to fly gliders and progress to more sophisticated singe seat
designs you'll want a parachute anyway....they are actually quite
comfortable.....and comforting to have there...
also a bigger parts of wearing a parachute is knowing how to use it.....read
the manual, go through the motions.....or even get with a sport parachuting
club or operation and get an hours worth of instruction on how to use it and
avoid common mistakes..Emergency parachutes are designed to work even when
you do things terribly wrong with them, that's what sets them apart from
sport skydiving parachutes, but you can enhance your safety and willingness
to actually use one without hesitation if the case ever comes up..
"I'd rather be down here wishing I was up there than up there wishing I was
down here"
best of luck!
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"vic20owner" > wrote in message
...
> Dumb beginner question follows:
>
> I am just starting out flying gliders.... Here in the USA it seems
> nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
> aerobatics. However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
> plan and a parachute seems reasonable. I suppose a history of cave
> diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. I realize
> flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
> other.
>
> Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
> lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke? ;)
>
> thanks

[Ralph Jones[_2_]]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:48:20 -0800 (PST), Frank Whiteley
> wrote:

>On Nov 20, 10:59*am, "noel.wade" > wrote:
>> Bottom-line: Wearing a parachute is a personal choice (in the USA); so
>> if others choose not to wear one, that's their perogative. You should
>> feel free to do what you feel is best and safest - not what will make
>> you popular or fashionable around others. If your club members
>> ridicule you for trying to be safe, then it's the wrong club to be
>> associated with!
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> --Noel
>
>You might enjoy this thread
>http://tinyurl.com/5coak4

Reminds me of the controversy some years back when the FAA ordered jet
warbird owners to disable their ejection seats...

rj

[Tuno]

Regardless of what kind of flight I'm taking in a glider of any type,
I feel naked and insecure without a parachute on. This is based on the
reports of inflight collisions I've read (e.g. the Hawker/ASG29 near
Minden), and my own experience as a rookie x/c pilot when I carelessly
got sucked into a CU. Fortunately I didn't break the glider but like
Andy's experience at that first turnpoint, it left a lasting
impression.

~ted/2NO

ps full disclosure -- I'm also biased by a previous life as a
skydiver; jumpers are nervous getting in any small aircraft without a
rig on.

[noel.wade]

Quick follow-up: My club is based at the same airport as the guys
that make Softie Parachutes. Most of the folks here love 'em (we have
6 chutes just for use in the club fleet, plus a lot of guys who own
their glider and fly with a Softie). They're not the cheapest, but
they're comfortable and effective. Sometimes they sell used chutes on
consignment for a good price.

Some of the IAC folks in my area love the folks at Silver Parachutes,
and certainly other brands work fine. If you have access to a few
parachutes, try them on and adjust the straps and see how they feel
(preferrably in a seating position like you would be in a glider) -
there's no substitute for hands-on review before deciding on which
type to buy.

Take care,

--Noel

[Bob Whelan[_3_]]

vic20owner wrote:
> Dumb beginner question follows:
>
> I am just starting out flying gliders.... Here in the USA it seems
> nobody wears a parachute unless they are contest flying or doing
> aerobatics. However, I generally do like knowing that I have a backup
> plan and a parachute seems reasonable. I suppose a history of cave
> diving has made me sensitive to accident possibilities. I realize
> flying is very safe but gliders tend to fly in circles near each
> other.
>
> Would it be premature to buy and wear a parachute while still taking
> lessons, or would I quickly become the club's private joke? ;)
>
> thanks
Man - only on the internet could I 'discover' a thread ~24 hours after
it started, and find it was old/over on the same day! Anyhow...

"What everyone else has already said."

'Way back when' when my instructor kicked me out of the 2-33 we'd been
flying to the club's 1-26, he added (in what seemed to me, then, almost
an afterthought), "Go grab a parachute for the flight."

"Why?" asks I. "We haven't been using them on our flights."

"I can't fit in the back of a 2-33 with a 'chute, and you don't get one
if I don't get one. Trust me...wear a 'chute any time you can."

That last bit made sense then. Still does today. A few years later, my
personal 'chute was in for a repack, so I flew my
(supine-piloting-position) HP-14 resting atop 4" of foam. It
simultaneously: was terrifying; felt akin to (I imagine!) being naked
before the Pope; provided much food for contemplation of the U.S. FAA's
'curious wisdom' regarding emergency 'chute accessibility to the PIC vs.
violating then-applicable 'chute FARs.

Of course my view may have been biased by being a 1-time user of the
same 'chute...

Regards,
Bob - likes to listen to those little voices in his head - W.

P.S. As already noted, you'd be rather irked with yourself - for a
while, anyway - if you needed a 'chute and had opted to fly without it.

[[email protected]]

A parachute is part of the required equipment for my glider, according
to it's type certificate. I have a Kestrel 19 in Canada.

I wonder how many gliders have this requirement?

[JJ Sinclair]

Story time.......
I was CD'ing a contest at Air Sailing and caught a 1-26 driver
climbing in without a chute. Where's your chute, I asked? Don't use
them, was his reply. You do in this contest, its
regulations..............he was retired military and I knew he
wouldn't argue with that. You can guess where this is going, come
evening, everybody's back cept the 1-26 driver. Nothing on the radio
and nobody'd heard anything in the air, so we launched a search
vehicle, AKA, tow plane. Found him about an hour later, he'd done a
one-turn spin, turning final to a dirt road about 20 miles west of
home plate. That 1-26 hit near vertical and he broke both legs and
messed up his feet something awful!
Alone in the desert, loosing blood and going into shock, he was
between a rock and a hard place. Then he remembered the chute I made
him wear. Popped that puppy and wrapped both legs and himself with the
canopy. The chute probably saved his life and not by its intended
purpose.
One could write a book about the use of a parachute other than for a
nylon descent.
JJ

[Don Johnstone[_3_]]

At 18:40 20 November 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote: (snip)
>Why? Because it's a comfortable chair type chute and my first choice
>was several months backordered http://tinyurl.com/55t3fz and I didn't
>wish to wait.
Frank Whiteley

In the UK it is very unusual for anyone to fly a glider without wearing a
parachute and that includes people on trial lessons. I hesitate to
speculate on whether many would be able to operate the chute.

I have an EB80 which was designed and manufactured by Irvin Airchute (Now
Airborne Systems) and it is designed to open within 700ft. It is certainly
the most comfortable and well made parachute that I have worn.

[Surfer!]

In message >, Don Johnstone
> writes
>At 18:40 20 November 2008, Frank Whiteley wrote: (snip)
>>Why? Because it's a comfortable chair type chute and my first choice
>>was several months backordered http://tinyurl.com/55t3fz and I didn't
>>wish to wait.
>Frank Whiteley
>
>In the UK it is very unusual for anyone to fly a glider without wearing a
>parachute and that includes people on trial lessons. I hesitate to
>speculate on whether many would be able to operate the chute.

At my club they get a short parachute talk beforehand, and there is at
least one person whose life was saved on his first flight by the
parachute, when the K21 got hit by lightening. Think that was near
Dunstable but don't hold me to it.

>
>I have an EB80 which was designed and manufactured by Irvin Airchute (Now
>Airborne Systems) and it is designed to open within 700ft. It is certainly
>the most comfortable and well made parachute that I have worn.
>
>

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Don Johnstone[_3_]]

At 07:52 25 November 2008, Surfer! wrote:

>
>At my club they get a short parachute talk beforehand, and there is at
>least one person whose life was saved on his first flight by the
>parachute, when the K21 got hit by lightening. Think that was near
>Dunstable but don't hold me to it.
>

You are correct and in the report the investigators suggest that the
wearing of a parachute on composite structure gliders is a good idea as
they have little or no protection against strikes. The AAIB report makes
interesting reading and can be found here.
http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:40:31 -0800 (PST), Frank Whiteley
> wrote:

> A German study once concluded that
>survival in an incident requiring parachute use below 600m agl was
>very low. That said, some emergency chutes are very effective at low
>altitudes with good horizontal speed.

Nevertheless, I know four people who bailed out successfully - one at
6.000 ft, two at 600 ft (midair collision), one at 400 ft
(non-connected elavtor during winch launch).



Bye
Andreas

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> On Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:40:31 -0800 (PST), Frank Whiteley
>
> > wrote:
> > A German study once concluded that
> >survival in an incident requiring parachute use below 600m agl was
> >very low. *That said, some emergency chutes are very effective at low
> >altitudes with good horizontal speed.
>
> Nevertheless, I know four people who bailed out successfully - one at
> 6.000 ft, two at 600 ft (midair collision), one at 400 ft
> (non-connected elavtor during winch launch).
>
> Bye
> Andreas

I know one who died because he didn't get his chute repacked regularly
thus missing an AD on the D-ring attachment. When he needed the
chute, it didn't work.

Frank

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).

Wow, that's impressive! Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?

Andy

[Surfer!]

In message
>, Andy
> writes
>On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>>one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).
>
>Wow, that's impressive! Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
>the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?

I heard a story about a guy with an ASW19 who realised the elevator
wasn't connected when winch launching, and what I think I heard was that
he waited until it reached the top of the climb and jumped,
successfully. The other part of the story was that he had rigged the
glider and correctly connected the tailplane and someone else took it
off for some reason and refitted it without connecting it, and that the
miscreant went on to be an AAIB investigator..

Dunno how much of this (if any) is true though!

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 26, 1:41*pm, Surfer! > wrote:
> In message
> >, Andy
> > writes
>
> >On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
> >>one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).
>
> >Wow, that's impressive! *Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
> >the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?
>
> I heard a story about a guy with an ASW19 who realised the elevator
> wasn't connected when winch launching, and what I think I heard was that
> he waited until it reached the top of the climb and jumped,
> successfully. *The other part of the story was that he had rigged the
> glider and correctly connected the tailplane and someone else took it
> off for some reason and refitted it without connecting it, and that the
> miscreant went on to be an AAIB investigator..
>
> Dunno how much of this (if any) is true though!
>
> --
> Surfer!
> Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

An RAF member did this in an ASW-20 and landed safey off airport in a
field using trim and flaps.

Frank Whiteley

[Surfer!]

In message
>,
Frank Whiteley > writes
>On Nov 26, 1:41*pm, Surfer! > wrote:
>> In message
>> >, Andy
>> > writes
>>
>> >On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>> >>one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).
>>
>> >Wow, that's impressive! *Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
>> >the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?
>>
>> I heard a story about a guy with an ASW19 who realised the elevator
>> wasn't connected when winch launching, and what I think I heard was that
>> he waited until it reached the top of the climb and jumped,
>> successfully. *The other part of the story was that he had rigged the
>> glider and correctly connected the tailplane and someone else took it
>> off for some reason and refitted it without connecting it, and that the
>> miscreant went on to be an AAIB investigator..
>>
>> Dunno how much of this (if any) is true though!
>>
>> --
>> Surfer!
>> Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
>
>An RAF member did this in an ASW-20 and landed safey off airport in a
>field using trim and flaps.

How could trim make any difference if the elevator was disconnected?

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Ian]

On 27 Nov, 06:58, Surfer! > wrote:
> In message
> >,
> Frank Whiteley > writes

> >An RAF member did this in an ASW-20 and landed safey off airport in a
> >field using trim and flaps.
>
> How could trim make any difference if the elevator was disconnected?

It works - in theory - if you have a trim tab. I presume that the
ASW-20 does not, though.

Ian

[Andreas Maurer]

On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:14:17 -0800 (PST), Andy >
wrote:

>On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>>one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).
>
>Wow, that's impressive! Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
>the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?

I can only quote the reply to your posting:

--- snip ---
I heard a story about a guy with an ASW19 who realised the elevator
wasn't connected when winch launching, and what I think I heard was
that
he waited until it reached the top of the climb and jumped,
successfully.
--- snip ---

You only need to replace the term "guy" with "girl".


Bye
Andreas

[Andreas Maurer]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:58:45 +0000, Surfer! > wrote:

>How could trim make any difference if the elevator was disconnected?

He used a combination of flaps and airbrakes to trim the 20.


Bye
Andreas

[Surfer!]

In message
>, Ian
> writes
>On 27 Nov, 06:58, Surfer! > wrote:
>> In message
>> >,
>> Frank Whiteley > writes
>
>> >An RAF member did this in an ASW-20 and landed safey off airport in a
>> >field using trim and flaps.
>>
>> How could trim make any difference if the elevator was disconnected?
>
>It works - in theory - if you have a trim tab. I presume that the
>ASW-20 does not, though.

It doesn't sound like the sort of theory I want to try in practise.
Thankfully my glider's elevator is self-connecting.

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Surfer!]

In message >, Andreas Maurer
> writes
>On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 06:58:45 +0000, Surfer! > wrote:
>
>>How could trim make any difference if the elevator was disconnected?
>
>He used a combination of flaps and airbrakes to trim the 20.

Now I can sort of see how that could happen. But I wouldn't like to try
it out!

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:32:05 -0800, Ian wrote:

> On 27 Nov, 06:58, Surfer! > wrote:
>> In message
>> >,
>> Frank Whiteley > writes
>
>> >An RAF member did this in an ASW-20 and landed safey off airport in a
>> >field using trim and flaps.
>>
>> How could trim make any difference if the elevator was disconnected?
>
> It works - in theory - if you have a trim tab. I presume that the ASW-20
> does not, though.
>
That's right. An ASW-20 doesn't have trim tabs. However, the flaps do act
as a form of trim, because by changing the effective wing incidence
relative to fuselage datum you're changing the decalage, and hence the
trim.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Frank Whiteley]

On Nov 27, 10:54*am, Martin Gregorie
> wrote:
> On Thu, 27 Nov 2008 00:32:05 -0800, Ian wrote:
> > On 27 Nov, 06:58, Surfer! > wrote:
> >> In message
> >> >,
> >> Frank Whiteley > writes
>
> >> >An RAF member did this in an ASW-20 and landed safey off airport in a
> >> >field using trim and flaps.
>
> >> How could trim make any difference if the elevator was disconnected?
>
> > It works - in theory - if you have a trim tab. I presume that the ASW-20
> > does not, though.
>
> That's right. An ASW-20 doesn't have trim tabs. However, the flaps do act
> as a form of trim, because by changing the effective wing incidence
> relative to fuselage datum you're changing the decalage, and hence the
> trim.
>
> --
> martin@ * | Martin Gregorie
> gregorie. | Essex, UK
> org * * * |

you're right, it was flaps and airbrakes

He got one of those awards for saving an aircraft.

He also didn't presume to try turning but took a field off airport.

Frank

[John Smith]

Andy wrote:
> On Nov 26, 6:54 am, Andreas Maurer > wrote:
>> one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).

> Wow, that's impressive! Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
> the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?

I've read one such incident report, dunno whether it was the same
incident. Point is, most gliders climb just fine on the winch on their
own. Maybe not perfectly, but fine. The pilot waited until the whinch
launch had finished and then bailed out from more or less horizontal
flight. Bottom line is: yes, you can bail out successfully from winch
launch height.

[John Smith]

wrote:

> Depends on the club culture. Also, it's considered poor taste to be
> the only occupant of an aircraft wearing a parachute so while taking
> instruction you'd need

This doesn't make any sense at all. I would consider it very poor taste
if the instructor wore a chute and refused one to the student (or a
passenger), but definitely not vice versa. Actually, I would refuse to
take lessons from an instructor who was stupid enough to even consider
to fly a glider without a chute, for whatever mission.

[John Smith]

toad wrote:

> The clubs (that I know) don't own parachutes and most non-
> owners don't either.

Most European clubs have the policy to fly strictly with chute only.
They usually own a chute for each seat of their fleet.

[Surfer!]

In message >, John Smith
> writes
wrote:
>
>> Depends on the club culture. Also, it's considered poor taste to be
>> the only occupant of an aircraft wearing a parachute so while taking
>> instruction you'd need
>
>This doesn't make any sense at all. I would consider it very poor taste
>if the instructor wore a chute and refused one to the student (or a
>passenger), but definitely not vice versa. Actually, I would refuse to
>take lessons from an instructor who was stupid enough to even consider
>to fly a glider without a chute, for whatever mission.

Even if he doesn't fit in with a parachute because he's well over 6'
tall?

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Al Eddie[_3_]]

At 20:41 26 November 2008, Surfer! wrote:
>In message
>, Andy
> writes
>>On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>>one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).
>>
>>Wow, that's impressive! Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
>>the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?
>
>I heard a story about a guy with an ASW19 who realised the elevator
>wasn't connected when winch launching, and what I think I heard was that

>he waited until it reached the top of the climb and jumped,
>successfully. The other part of the story was that he had rigged the
>glider and correctly connected the tailplane and someone else took it
>off for some reason and refitted it without connecting it, and that the
>miscreant went on to be an AAIB investigator..
>
>Dunno how much of this (if any) is true though!
>
>--
>Surfer!
>Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net
>

Actually, there is a strong rumour circulating that he became, and still
is, editor of a CAA Safety publication.

Don't know who started it though...

;o)

[Al Eddie[_3_]]

At 15:11 27 November 2008, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>On Wed, 26 Nov 2008 10:14:17 -0800 (PST), Andy
>wrote:
>
>>On Nov 26, 6:54*am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>>one at 400 ft (non-connected elavator during winch launch).
>>
>>Wow, that's impressive! Was the glider in an uncontrolled climb when
>>the bale out was initiated or had the cable broken?
>
>I can only quote the reply to your posting:
>
>--- snip ---
>I heard a story about a guy with an ASW19 who realised the elevator
>wasn't connected when winch launching, and what I think I heard was
>that
>he waited until it reached the top of the climb and jumped,
>successfully.
>--- snip ---
>
>You only need to replace the term "guy" with "girl".
>
>
>Bye
>Andreas
>

No.

It was a guy.

;o)

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On 28 Nov 2008 17:15:04 GMT, Al Eddie > wrote:



>No.
>
>It was a guy.

Then it's a guy who got a child last year - I know her personally.


Bye
Andreas

[Andy[_1_]]

On Nov 27, 2:47*pm, John Smith > wrote:
>Bottom line is: yes, you can bail out successfully from winch
> launch height.

I was impressed by a sucessful bail out from 400ft. That's a huge
difference from doing it at the top of a typical winch launch.

So Andreas what is the full story? Did she realize she had a problem
at the start of the launch and decide to get out at 400ft and then
actually depart the aircraft at top of launch, or did she really get
out at 400ft?

Andy

[Martin Gregorie[_4_]]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 14:45:22 +0100, Andreas Maurer wrote:

> On 28 Nov 2008 17:15:04 GMT, Al Eddie > wrote:
>
>
>
>>No.
>>
>>It was a guy.
>
> Then it's a guy who got a child last year - I know her personally.
>
Then its happened at least twice. I'd heard about it happening to a bloke
in the UK but not to a woman until you told the story.

The UK case, as I heard it told, involved the pilot rigging and doing
positives before going into the club house for something. While he was
away somebody else showed a student how to remove and fit the tailplane
but put it back wrong. He also must have failed to do a positive or tell
the pilot that he'd interfered with the glider.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Chris Nicholas[_2_]]

I heard the same story as Martin G. I have also been to a UK gliding club
where it is now a requirement to do a second PCC at the launchpoint, in
addition to having done one when first rigging. I wondered if it was the
same club where the UK event happened?

I also wonder if the person who removed and replaced the tailplane
incorrectly is the same one that Al Eddie referred to?

Chris N.

[Don Johnstone[_3_]]

At 01:30 26 November 2008, Don Johnstone wrote:
>At 07:52 25 November 2008, Surfer! wrote:
>
>>
>>At my club they get a short parachute talk beforehand, and there is at
>>least one person whose life was saved on his first flight by the
>>parachute, when the K21 got hit by lightening. Think that was near
>>Dunstable but don't hold me to it.
>>
>
>You are correct and in the report the investigators suggest that the
>wearing of a parachute on composite structure gliders is a good idea as
>they have little or no protection against strikes. The AAIB report makes
>interesting reading and can be found here.
>http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_500699.pdf

It should also be said that the "student" was a fully qualified
parachutist.

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 06:57:11 -0800 (PST), Andy >
wrote:

>I was impressed by a sucessful bail out from 400ft. That's a huge
>difference from doing it at the top of a typical winch launch.
>
>So Andreas what is the full story? Did she realize she had a problem
>at the start of the launch and decide to get out at 400ft and then
>actually depart the aircraft at top of launch, or did she really get
>out at 400ft?

She realized immediately after takeoff that her elevator wasn't
connected, and the ASW-19 was relcutant to enter a steady climb - it
climbed in a wavelike motion. So she stayed in the glider until she
felt that it had reached its maximum altitude, and bailed out at the
moment the glider was flying horizontally.

Bye
Andreas