Transponder problems with ATC COMS - Video

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

I was passenger on a $100 hamburger run.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBl3rbiwpTA

Note, pilot is fresh on getting her VFR ticket and wanted to get some
ground ops experience so she asked me to come along. She also thought
it would be cool to capture her comms with ATC so I brought the
recorder along. Little did we know how much "communicating" was in
her future!

Transponder acted silly on departure and video includes both ATC and
in cockpit communications.

Note, pilot is part owner of the C172 and I was totally clueless on
the operation of her transponder. She just knew how to push the button
to the squawk code. Durn thing is so automated it automatically goes
to mode C on take off. My transponder is nothing as techie as what
was installed in her plane.

While she was flying the plane in the troubleshooting stage, I had
pushed the standby button and saw no display indication that would
show the transponder NOT sending the Mode C data. It still displayed
the FL data. I would have expected that to disappear when I set it to
standby or some indication that Mode C was shut off.

Rather then troubleshoot in an area that was congested with ATC
traffic and cause more chaos with an incorrectly reporting
transponder, we figured to recycle to see if it would clear it up.
Since it didn't clear it up, we canceled the flight following and
turned off the transponder since we had cleared KJAN airspace.

Reason for shutting it off was I was afraid we would be seen as
"unverified traffic" by center at 700 foot higher then what we really
were. Whether these decisions were "procedurally correct" or not I
don't know, but the safe outcome of the flight shows the success of
the flight.

I had asked the pilot what would she have done had she been by
herself, and she said she would have returned back to Madison which in
my eyes is as equally a good decision as mine to cancel flight
following.

I felt the pilot was incredibly composed considering the extra tasks
tossed back at her.

Certain things training sure never covers, and this would be one of
them....

For those interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru6p-5dP5D0 was
when I was her second passenger just three months ago. As you can
see, she has come a long way on handling an airplane.

[BT]

You do not mention the make and model of the transponder and I did not see
it in the video. The newer garmin (and others) transponders (if tied to a
GPS) will automatically switch from STBY to ALT when a set ground speed is
reached and return to STBY when it is slowed below that ground speed. It is
possible to turn off ModeC and just squawk the code. It is very unusual for
the altitude to miss report.

BT


"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
...
>I was passenger on a $100 hamburger run.
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBl3rbiwpTA
>
> Note, pilot is fresh on getting her VFR ticket and wanted to get some
> ground ops experience so she asked me to come along. She also thought
> it would be cool to capture her comms with ATC so I brought the
> recorder along. Little did we know how much "communicating" was in
> her future!
>
> Transponder acted silly on departure and video includes both ATC and
> in cockpit communications.
>
> Note, pilot is part owner of the C172 and I was totally clueless on
> the operation of her transponder. She just knew how to push the button
> to the squawk code. Durn thing is so automated it automatically goes
> to mode C on take off. My transponder is nothing as techie as what
> was installed in her plane.
>
> While she was flying the plane in the troubleshooting stage, I had
> pushed the standby button and saw no display indication that would
> show the transponder NOT sending the Mode C data. It still displayed
> the FL data. I would have expected that to disappear when I set it to
> standby or some indication that Mode C was shut off.
>
> Rather then troubleshoot in an area that was congested with ATC
> traffic and cause more chaos with an incorrectly reporting
> transponder, we figured to recycle to see if it would clear it up.
> Since it didn't clear it up, we canceled the flight following and
> turned off the transponder since we had cleared KJAN airspace.
>
> Reason for shutting it off was I was afraid we would be seen as
> "unverified traffic" by center at 700 foot higher then what we really
> were. Whether these decisions were "procedurally correct" or not I
> don't know, but the safe outcome of the flight shows the success of
> the flight.
>
> I had asked the pilot what would she have done had she been by
> herself, and she said she would have returned back to Madison which in
> my eyes is as equally a good decision as mine to cancel flight
> following.
>
> I felt the pilot was incredibly composed considering the extra tasks
> tossed back at her.
>
> Certain things training sure never covers, and this would be one of
> them....
>
> For those interested http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ru6p-5dP5D0 was
> when I was her second passenger just three months ago. As you can
> see, she has come a long way on handling an airplane.

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 24, 7:38*pm, "BT" > wrote:
> You do not mention the make and model of the transponder and I did not see
> it in the video. The newer garmin (and others) transponders (if tied to a
> GPS) will automatically switch from STBY to ALT when a set ground speed is
> reached and return to STBY when it is slowed below that ground speed. It is
> possible to turn off ModeC and just squawk the code. It is very unusual for
> the altitude to miss report.

BT,

I don't remember the make and model myself, it was digital in that it
was LCD looking screen rather then LED (green background)

Googling the Garmin transponder product, buttons look the same, just
don't know the model.

Plane had a Garmin 430 but I don't think it was tied into the GPS.

What you describe going from STBY to ALT worked as advertised and that
was a first for me. The display showed FL 4100 which I took to be the
reported mode C as that is what KJAN said. It was 700 foot off the
altimeter reading. Altimeter was spot on when we verified ASOS
altimeter to field elevation.

What got me was I couldn't and didn't know what the standby buttoon
was (or was not) doing since it didn't indicate no mode C, just
continued to show the FL value.

I assume STBY would stop the altitude reads???

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 24, 5:38*pm, "BT" > wrote:
> You do not mention the make and model of the transponder and I did not see
> it in the video. The newer garmin (and others) transponders (if tied to a
> GPS) will automatically switch from STBY to ALT when a set ground speed is
> reached and return to STBY when it is slowed below that ground speed. It is
> possible to turn off ModeC and just squawk the code. It is very unusual for
> the altitude to miss report.


My guess is that its a new C-172 with the G1000 with the transponder
just built in. There is a button along the bottom of the PFD that
brings up transponder options. The transponder is no longer a separate
unit.

-Robert

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 24, 7:54*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> My guess is that its a new C-172 with the G1000 with the transponder
> just built in. There is a button along the bottom of the PFD that
> brings up transponder options. The transponder is no longer a separate
> unit.
>
> -Robert

Robert,

One thing I can say, it wasn't the G1000

I put in my reply to BT it was a Garmin product looking at pics on
Google.

I hope instructors learn from this to take the time to teach how to
stop the mode C. In my training, I never got such training. My
transponder on my plane is the king analogue flaver, just off, stby,
alt and test and turn knobs to squawk.

Nothing to think about on my transponder but when you start getting
digitalized with more options, maybe some basic transponder 101 with
explanations on why you do what should be in order for flight
training???

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 24, 8:35*pm, Clark > wrote:

> I just put a 327 in my aircraft - thanks for posting this 'cause it gave me
> an excuse to re-read the manual to verify that "On" is Mode A. I'll check
> it tomorrow for some visual feedback that Mode A is active vice Mode C.

If you could post your findings, this will be helpful for me for the
next time I fly in that plane, even as a passenger. I hope that I
don't have to use this new found knowledge on a transponder that was
"just fixed" but one just never knows.

For something as benign as a transponder, when it hiccups, it can add
workload to "flying the plane" :-)

[Viperdoc[_6_]]

I have flown with a couple of Garmin 327's and now have two 330's. The
pressure altitude readout on the transponder comes (as I recall) from the
blind encoder. It is obviously not connected to the altimeter setting.

So, the encoder could be culprit for the mis reported altitude. I suppose
there could be a difference in altitudes of 700 feet if the day was very
non-standard (such as very cold, high pressure, etc).

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 24, 9:15*pm, "Viperdoc" > wrote:

> So, the encoder could be culprit for the mis reported altitude. I suppose
> there could be a difference in altitudes of 700 feet if the day was very
> non-standard (such as very cold, high pressure, etc).

30.32 is "higher then normal" for the deep south of MS but I sure hope
that wouldn't have caused that much discrepancy :-)

Since the altimeter was spot on to field elevation at before take off
checklist, I knew that wasn't the culprit.

I suppose if I understand the digital world, that the FL displayed on
the transponder should match field elevation when on the ground. Is
that something worthy of checking before take off to make sure they
match?

[Mike]

"Clark" > wrote in message
...
>A Lieberma > wrote in news:58728052-dba6-4fb3-8e25-
> :
>
>> On Nov 24, 7:38 pm, "BT" > wrote:
>>> You do not mention the make and model of the transponder and I did not
> se
>> e
>>> it in the video. The newer garmin (and others) transponders (if tied to
> a
>>> GPS) will automatically switch from STBY to ALT when a set ground speed
> i
>> s
>>> reached and return to STBY when it is slowed below that ground speed. It
>> is
>>> possible to turn off ModeC and just squawk the code. It is very unusual
> f
>> or
>>> the altitude to miss report.
>>
>> BT,
>>
>> I don't remember the make and model myself, it was digital in that it
>> was LCD looking screen rather then LED (green background)
>>
>> Googling the Garmin transponder product, buttons look the same, just
>> don't know the model.
>>
>> Plane had a Garmin 430 but I don't think it was tied into the GPS.
>>
>> What you describe going from STBY to ALT worked as advertised and that
>> was a first for me. The display showed FL 4100 which I took to be the
>> reported mode C as that is what KJAN said. It was 700 foot off the
>> altimeter reading. Altimeter was spot on when we verified ASOS
>> altimeter to field elevation.
>>
>> What got me was I couldn't and didn't know what the standby buttoon
>> was (or was not) doing since it didn't indicate no mode C, just
>> continued to show the FL value.
>>
>> I assume STBY would stop the altitude reads???
>
> STBY should stop all transponder response on the Garmins. Just pressing
> "On" rather than "ALT" should give Mode A.
>
> I just put a 327 in my aircraft - thanks for posting this 'cause it gave
> me
> an excuse to re-read the manual to verify that "On" is Mode A. I'll check
> it tomorrow for some visual feedback that Mode A is active vice Mode C.

This is correct. "On" mode kills ModeC, but allows ModeA. It's the same on
most transponders, even those with analog readouts.

[BT]

Blind encoders are just that.. Blind, they do not care what the current
proper "altimeter setting" is.

ATC decoders know the altimeter settings for a given area and automatically
apply the correction before displaying.
I've watched entire digital radar displays report everyone 300ft off
instantaneously as the altimeter setting table was loaded into the system, a
momentary blink when there was no corrections, and then the updates as the
new setting corrections were applied to the ModeC data received.

ATC will issue the altimeter setting to the pilot in the event the
"displayed" altitude does not agree with the pilot reported altitude just in
case the pilot has miss set or not set the altimeter for the correct
pressure. In such cases normally about a 200-300ft difference, the pilot
dials in the correct pressure and then either reports a new altitude that
may agree with the reported altitude, or descents/climbs to the reported
altitude and the ModeC now agrees.

It appears that the Garmin 3xx series transponder may have an error in it's
sensor, a leak in the static line to the sensor or something creating a
vacuum near the sensor as it was reading about 700-800ft to high.

You state that the altimeter agreed with the ASOS setting on the ground. At
ground level and not moving (ground speed = zero) does the reported FL
altitude display agree? If they agree, then I would suspect that the static
line might be off the back of the encoder transponder and that in-flight the
encoder is sensing cabin pressure and not outside static pressure. In flight
in C-172s, the inside cabin is slightly lower pressure than outside due to
vacuum effects of a leaky fuselage.

I'm somewhat surprised, if the pilot is part owner and flies this aircraft
regularly, she does not know the operation of her transponder. She can
select STBY, ALT and put in the code, but she does not understand it's
operation.
A nice thing about those transponders.. the VFR button will automatically
load 1200.

BT


"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
>I have flown with a couple of Garmin 327's and now have two 330's. The
>pressure altitude readout on the transponder comes (as I recall) from the
>blind encoder. It is obviously not connected to the altimeter setting.
>
> So, the encoder could be culprit for the mis reported altitude. I suppose
> there could be a difference in altitudes of 700 feet if the day was very
> non-standard (such as very cold, high pressure, etc).
>
>
>

[dave]

The only time blind encoders will accurately match the altimeter is when
the altimeter is dialed in at 29.92. Also remember that encoders only
report in 100 ft increments. You are allowed to deviate between the
altimeter and the encoder by 125 feet.
If this is off then either the altimeter is off or the encoder is off.
If the altimeter reads correct altitude while parked at the airport with
a current baro setting, then I suspect the encoder is off.
If the static line had a leak or is disconnected from any instrument in
the aircraft then both the altimeter and the encoder should be off the
same amount since they are using cabin altitude and should match altitudes.

That 125 foot difference can be important. you may be indicating 2990
feet while your transponder is reporting 3100 feet. If the class B
airspace starts at 3000, then you may be validation of busting class B
and be totally legal.



BT wrote:
> Blind encoders are just that.. Blind, they do not care what the current
> proper "altimeter setting" is.
>
> ATC decoders know the altimeter settings for a given area and automatically
> apply the correction before displaying.
> I've watched entire digital radar displays report everyone 300ft off
> instantaneously as the altimeter setting table was loaded into the system, a
> momentary blink when there was no corrections, and then the updates as the
> new setting corrections were applied to the ModeC data received.
>
> ATC will issue the altimeter setting to the pilot in the event the
> "displayed" altitude does not agree with the pilot reported altitude just in
> case the pilot has miss set or not set the altimeter for the correct
> pressure. In such cases normally about a 200-300ft difference, the pilot
> dials in the correct pressure and then either reports a new altitude that
> may agree with the reported altitude, or descents/climbs to the reported
> altitude and the ModeC now agrees.
>
> It appears that the Garmin 3xx series transponder may have an error in it's
> sensor, a leak in the static line to the sensor or something creating a
> vacuum near the sensor as it was reading about 700-800ft to high.
>
> You state that the altimeter agreed with the ASOS setting on the ground. At
> ground level and not moving (ground speed = zero) does the reported FL
> altitude display agree? If they agree, then I would suspect that the static
> line might be off the back of the encoder transponder and that in-flight the
> encoder is sensing cabin pressure and not outside static pressure. In flight
> in C-172s, the inside cabin is slightly lower pressure than outside due to
> vacuum effects of a leaky fuselage.
>
> I'm somewhat surprised, if the pilot is part owner and flies this aircraft
> regularly, she does not know the operation of her transponder. She can
> select STBY, ALT and put in the code, but she does not understand it's
> operation.
> A nice thing about those transponders.. the VFR button will automatically
> load 1200.
>
> BT
>
>
> "Viperdoc" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I have flown with a couple of Garmin 327's and now have two 330's. The
>> pressure altitude readout on the transponder comes (as I recall) from the
>> blind encoder. It is obviously not connected to the altimeter setting.
>>
>> So, the encoder could be culprit for the mis reported altitude. I suppose
>> there could be a difference in altitudes of 700 feet if the day was very
>> non-standard (such as very cold, high pressure, etc).
>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 24, 7:15*pm, "Viperdoc" > wrote:
> I have flown with a couple of Garmin 327's and now have two 330's. The
> pressure altitude readout on the transponder comes (as I recall) from the
> blind encoder. It is obviously not connected to the altimeter setting.
>
> So, the encoder could be culprit for the mis reported altitude. I suppose
> there could be a difference in altitudes of 700 feet if the day was very
> non-standard (such as very cold, high pressure, etc).

That is for sure. The altitude used by the transponder for all us
flying non-digial, non-flat screen bug smashers is not the same
necessarily as what you see on the panel. However, in my experience
when ATC is getting the wrong altitude its almost always either a
calibration issue or a wiring (i.e. dirty connectors, etc) issue. Its
usually something a good avionics shop can fix in minutes.

-robert

[Voyager]

A Lieberma wrote:
> On Nov 24, 7:54 pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
>
>> My guess is that its a new C-172 with the G1000 with the transponder
>> just built in. There is a button along the bottom of the PFD that
>> brings up transponder options. The transponder is no longer a separate
>> unit.
>>
>> -Robert
>
> Robert,
>
> One thing I can say, it wasn't the G1000
>
> I put in my reply to BT it was a Garmin product looking at pics on
> Google.
>
> I hope instructors learn from this to take the time to teach how to
> stop the mode C. In my training, I never got such training. My
> transponder on my plane is the king analogue flaver, just off, stby,
> alt and test and turn knobs to squawk.
>
> Nothing to think about on my transponder but when you start getting
> digitalized with more options, maybe some basic transponder 101 with
> explanations on why you do what should be in order for flight
> training???

Yes, instructors should cover things like this, but the pilots should
also read the avionics manuals! Most people I know have never read the
manual for their car let alone their avionics. There is simply no
excuse for this.

Matt

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 24, 11:38*pm, "BT" > wrote:

> I'm somewhat surprised, if the pilot is part owner and flies this aircraft
> regularly, she does not know the operation of her transponder. She can
> select STBY, ALT and put in the code, but she does not understand it's
> operation.
> A nice thing about those transponders.. the VFR button will automatically
> load 1200.

Thanks BT for the informative posts. My plane doesn't have all this
fancy gagetry, so I was literally winging it on a prayer and things
just didn't add up in my head, thus shutting the Xponder off..

With all the nuances of learning how to fly, learning how to own a
plane, it does not surprise me she didn't know the operation of her
transponder. Her "lesson" was set it and forget it OR let it do
everything automatically.

If you think about it, at least for me, even in my flight lessons, I
never got any instructions on how to operate the transponder other
then coding in the numbers or doing "one button operations". Never
once was I ever shown how to stop Mode C operations.

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 25, 12:41*am, Dave > wrote:

> That 125 foot difference can be important. you may be indicating 2990
> feet while your transponder is reporting 3100 feet. If the class B
> airspace starts at 3000, then you may be validation of busting class B
> and be totally legal.

Dave, this was my precise reason for shutting the Xponder down
especially thinking ahead for the return trip home.

KMBO is under the floor of KJAN charlie airspace and I was concerned
that if we flew at 1500, ATC would see us at 2200. In my mind, no
information is better then wrong information with what cards were
dealt to me even if I wasn't PIC.

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 25, 7:23*am, Voyager > wrote:

> Yes, instructors should cover things like this, but the pilots should
> also read the avionics manuals! *Most people I know have never read the
> manual for their car let alone their avionics. *There is simply no
> excuse for this.

Agree Matt for airplane owners, but I guess some forgiveness should be
given for "renters" for practicality purposes.

I don't know of any airplane that has all the user manuals for all the
avionics in the plane. I would suspect checkout should include
instructions on Xponder operations and during training as well.

I never got such training.

[Mike]

"Dave" > wrote in message
...
> You are allowed to deviate between the altimeter and the encoder by 125
> feet.

Says who?

[noname]

On Nov 25, 9:05*am, "Mike" <nospam @ aol.com> wrote:
> "Dave" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > You are allowed to deviate between the altimeter and the encoder by 125
> > feet.
>
> Says who?

Part 91.217 para b, and that can be accurate 95% of the time.

[Mike]

"noname" > wrote in message
...
> On Nov 25, 9:05 am, "Mike" <nospam @ aol.com> wrote:
> > "Dave" > wrote in message
> >
> > ...
> >
> > > You are allowed to deviate between the altimeter and the encoder by
> > > 125
> > > feet.
> >
> > Says who?
>
> Part 91.217 para b, and that can be accurate 95% of the time.

Thanks. I was confusing this with the 75' thumb rule for the altimeter.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 25, 5:42*am, A Lieberma > wrote:

> Agree Matt for airplane owners, but I guess some forgiveness should be
> given for "renters" for practicality purposes.
>
> I don't know of any airplane that has all the user manuals for all the
> avionics in the plane. *I would suspect checkout should include
> instructions on Xponder operations and during training as well.
>
> I never got such training.

Ok, so if you come in and want to rent a C-172 but have never flown
with a 430 should I require you to do a 5 hour training course? I
thought most pilots wanted simplier checkouts, not longer. I think the
rated pilot renter is responsible for figuring out what he doesn't
know (and needs to know) and figuring the answer out, either by
looking up on-line manuals or asking a CFI. Its not fair to require 5
to 10 hour checkouts in every 172 just because some pilots will not
otherwise learn the avionics specific to the aircraft.

-Robert, CFII

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 25, 10:59*am, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:
> or asking a CFI. Its not fair to require 5
> to 10 hour checkouts in every 172 just because some pilots will not
> otherwise learn the avionics specific to the aircraft.
>
> -Robert, CFII

Agree. Responsibility should be on the pilot for learning AND asking
a CFI for assistance on operating the avioncis so I see what direction
you are headed. It ultimately resides on the PIC for the safe outcome
of any flight which includes insuring they know how to handle the
avionics.

While I said rental, I kinda was really thinking more along the lines
of initial training that showing how to disable mode C. It did not
come out that way in my original post, my apologies.

At least with that training in the initial stage, then at least the
pilot has a chance should he come across similar type of avionics.

I never got that kind of training. We talked about it in ground
school, but never applied that training. While it's impossible to
cover every situation, this one I would think would be a situation to
be considered in training. It doesn't add to flight time.

May seem simple and basic, but when you got a new pilot up in the air
and something like this happens, it only adds to the stress level and
with **some foundation** for course of action at least there is a hope
for "resolution of the problem.

Even for me, it was something out of the ordinary, and having to
"think quick on the feet" to come up with something was more then what
the pilot would have done as she didn't even know how to operate the
Xponder. It was always left in the on position, so I am not even sure
if she would have known how to turn it off WHILE flying the plane.
She did do what she was taught to do and that was fly the plane and
left it to me to fiddle with the buttons.

Once we got clear of KJAN approach and went on our own, she settled
down and thought things completely through and we were able to work
the problem at a pace more manageable.

Ultimately, the safe outcome of the flight speaks for itself even
though our procedure of the decision making process may have been
flawed. We just dealt with the cards we were handed the best we could.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote

>Ok, so if you come in and want to rent a C-172 but have never flown
>with a 430 should I require you to do a 5 hour training course?

Apples vs. oranges, to me, with that comparison.

A fancy GPS is not necessary to fly VFR in _any_ airspace, while a
transponder is. (in some airspace)

I have to agree that a 5 minute, or even 10 minutes (if it takes that long)
lesson on the transponder should be included in a checkout.
--
Jim in NC

[Mike]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote
>
>>Ok, so if you come in and want to rent a C-172 but have never flown
>>with a 430 should I require you to do a 5 hour training course?
>
> Apples vs. oranges, to me, with that comparison.
>
> A fancy GPS is not necessary to fly VFR in _any_ airspace, while a
> transponder is. (in some airspace)
>
> I have to agree that a 5 minute, or even 10 minutes (if it takes that
> long) lesson on the transponder should be included in a checkout.

Sounds like about 4.5 to 9.5 minutes too long. Even a GTX 330 is not all
that complicated. Instead of a 4 position function switch, you have 4
buttons. Instead of 4 code knobs, you have 8 buttons. You have an ident
button just like any other xponder and a VFR button which resets to 1200.
All of the buttons on the right can be ignored for basic operation.

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 25, 2:22*pm, "Morgans" > wrote:

> A fancy GPS is not necessary to fly VFR in _any_ airspace, while a
> transponder is. (in some airspace)
>
> I have to agree that a 5 minute, or even 10 minutes (if it takes that long)
> lesson on the transponder should be included in a checkout.

But I'm not going to bill for 10 minutes. I'll bill an hour minimum.
If a pilot is checked out to fly 172's already I'm not going to
require that he pay me an hour simply because one 172 has a different
type of transponder. Again, its up to the pilot. If he *wants* some
instruction then I don't mind giving it but I'm not going to drive
down for 1/6 of an hour. I guess I care about this because I see it as
a big issue in the future. Many have suggested requiring the (by the
FAA) pilots to have endorsements for every combination of avionics in
the airplane (including author Richard Collins, etc). Unless its the
G1000 plane, I'm going to leave it up to the pilot to decide if he's
able to work the avionics. BTW: About 70% of the pilots I fly with
with the G1000 are already familiar with it because they've studied
the manuals at home and run the simulator (or even gone to one of the
local weekend ground seminars). I assume pilots are doing similar with
othe types of avionics.

-Robert

[A Lieberma[_2_]]

On Nov 25, 6:04*pm, "Robert M. Gary" > wrote:

> But I'm not going to bill for 10 minutes. I'll bill an hour minimum.
> If a pilot is checked out to fly 172's already I'm not going to
> require that he pay me an hour simply because one 172 has a different
> type of transponder. Again, its up to the pilot. If he *wants* some
> instruction then I don't mind giving it but I'm not going to drive
> down for 1/6 of an hour.

Robert,

I think the operative word is "included" in the checkout, not for you
to specifically come out and give training on the Xponder.

I don't see it being unreasonable to cross check with the pilot snf
ensure he knows how to handle the Xponder on a checkout on a C172.

Again, bottom line is it does fall on the PIC to ensure they know how
to operate the equipment and questions should come out during the
checkout, but an inexperience pilot may not think about the subtle
things that the CFI has in his tool kit.

G1000 is standardized and I am not surprised you are encountering
pilots who did their research when they know ahead what avionics is in
the plane, but there are a lot of C172's that are rented with a mish
mash of avionics.

[BT]

No problems "A", I enjoy watching your Sundowner videos. I flew Sundowners
in the late 07s in Maine.
The older equipment is not so much easier to understand, but it's what "we
grew up with", you really want to have fun, take the full G1000 Course for
IFR operations. The transponder and autopilot are built into the system, the
transponder select codes are on the soft switches at the bottom of the pilot
side PFD and the code/reply lights etc are in a little window on the screen.

BT

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
...
On Nov 24, 11:38 pm, "BT" > wrote:

> I'm somewhat surprised, if the pilot is part owner and flies this aircraft
> regularly, she does not know the operation of her transponder. She can
> select STBY, ALT and put in the code, but she does not understand it's
> operation.
> A nice thing about those transponders.. the VFR button will automatically
> load 1200.

Thanks BT for the informative posts. My plane doesn't have all this
fancy gagetry, so I was literally winging it on a prayer and things
just didn't add up in my head, thus shutting the Xponder off..

With all the nuances of learning how to fly, learning how to own a
plane, it does not surprise me she didn't know the operation of her
transponder. Her "lesson" was set it and forget it OR let it do
everything automatically.

If you think about it, at least for me, even in my flight lessons, I
never got any instructions on how to operate the transponder other
then coding in the numbers or doing "one button operations". Never
once was I ever shown how to stop Mode C operations.

[BT]

That should be the late 70s.. not 07s.. fingers got ahead of themselves
BT

"BT" > wrote in message
...
> No problems "A", I enjoy watching your Sundowner videos. I flew Sundowners
> in the late 07s in Maine.
> The older equipment is not so much easier to understand, but it's what "we
> grew up with", you really want to have fun, take the full G1000 Course for
> IFR operations. The transponder and autopilot are built into the system,
> the transponder select codes are on the soft switches at the bottom of the
> pilot side PFD and the code/reply lights etc are in a little window on the
> screen.
>
> BT
>
> "A Lieberma" > wrote in message
> ...
> On Nov 24, 11:38 pm, "BT" > wrote:
>
>> I'm somewhat surprised, if the pilot is part owner and flies this
>> aircraft
>> regularly, she does not know the operation of her transponder. She can
>> select STBY, ALT and put in the code, but she does not understand it's
>> operation.
>> A nice thing about those transponders.. the VFR button will automatically
>> load 1200.
>
> Thanks BT for the informative posts. My plane doesn't have all this
> fancy gagetry, so I was literally winging it on a prayer and things
> just didn't add up in my head, thus shutting the Xponder off..
>
> With all the nuances of learning how to fly, learning how to own a
> plane, it does not surprise me she didn't know the operation of her
> transponder. Her "lesson" was set it and forget it OR let it do
> everything automatically.
>
> If you think about it, at least for me, even in my flight lessons, I
> never got any instructions on how to operate the transponder other
> then coding in the numbers or doing "one button operations". Never
> once was I ever shown how to stop Mode C operations.
>
>

[Robert M. Gary]

On Nov 25, 5:35*pm, A Lieberma > wrote:

> I think the operative word is "included" in the checkout, not for you
> to specifically come out and give training on the Xponder.
>
> I don't see it being unreasonable to cross check with the pilot snf
> ensure he knows how to handle the Xponder on a checkout on a C172.

Generally if a pilot is signed off to fly the C-172's we don't require
they receive an additional checkout for each C-172 avionics
configuration.

-Robert

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

A Lieberma wrote:
> Little did we know how much "communicating" was in
> her future!

You dog...

[B A R R Y[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> On Nov 25, 5:35 pm, A Lieberma > wrote:
>
>> I think the operative word is "included" in the checkout, not for you
>> to specifically come out and give training on the Xponder.
>>
>> I don't see it being unreasonable to cross check with the pilot snf
>> ensure he knows how to handle the Xponder on a checkout on a C172.
>
> Generally if a pilot is signed off to fly the C-172's we don't require
> they receive an additional checkout for each C-172 avionics
> configuration.
>
> -Robert

Right.

Back when I was a renter, we'd be checked out on a type. Some of the
rentals had "wierd" avionics not installed in other aircraft in the
fleet. It should not be unreasonable for a pilot not familiar with the
equipment in a particular bird to either a.) ask for some free "ground
flying" time to get familiar, or b.) to come back into the FBO and ask
for one-on-one instruction on the particular equipment.

The bottom line is that the pilot should be familiar with all the
equipment on board the rented aircraft that will be used on a particular
flight, or should ASK for assistance or manuals before departure.

It's perfectly understandable for a Private Pilot not to understand
something like an autopilot or non-mapping GPS, as they can simply
choose to not use it. Any certificated pilot should know if a
transponder is required for a particular flight, and how to use the
example on board if it is.

If we're doing pattern laps at a non-towered field, who cares about the
transponder? But if we're requesting ATC services...

[Bear Bottoms[_3_]]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:30:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

> This is

SHUT THE **** UP, ASSHOLE.
--
Bear Bottoms
website: http://tr.im/1f9t

[Bear Bottoms[_4_]]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 23:40:08 GMT, Mike wrote:

> Sounds like

SHUT THE **** UP, ASSSHOLE !
--
Bear Bottoms
Private Attorney General

[Bear Bottoms[_4_]]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:05:52 GMT, Mike wrote:

> Says who I am queer?

Coming out?

Nice.
--
Bear Bottoms
website: http://tr.im/1f9t

[Mike]

"Bear Bottoms" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:05:52 GMT, Mike wrote:
>
>> Says who I am queer?
>
> Coming out?
>
> Nice.

Mommy must be so proud that Jr can use the computer as everyone had written
him off with the anencephaly and all.

Now if they could only get him to stop jerking off on the bus. A bit much
to expect I suppose.

[Mike]

"BT" > wrote in message
...
> No problems "A", I enjoy watching your Sundowner videos. I flew Sundowners
> in the late 07s in Maine.
> The older equipment is not so much easier to understand, but it's what "we
> grew up with", you really want to have fun, take the full G1000 Course for
> IFR operations. The transponder and autopilot are built into the system,
> the transponder select codes are on the soft switches at the bottom of the
> pilot side PFD and the code/reply lights etc are in a little window on the
> screen.

The earlier G1000s don't have the integrated AP which is a bit of a PITA.
Once you get familiar with the system it almost makes IFR TOO easy as you
can do practically everything but taxi the plane to the ramp by just pushing
buttons.

[Bear Bottoms[_3_]]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 14:05:52 GMT, Mike wrote:

> "Dave" > wrote in message
> ...
>> You are allowed to deviate between the altimeter and the encoder by 125
>> feet.
>
> Says who?

SHUT THE **** UP, ASSHOLE.
--
Bear Bottoms
website: http://tr.im/1f9t

[Bear Bottoms[_3_]]

On Mon, 01 Dec 2008 01:12:39 GMT, Mike wrote:

> Mommy is my best pice of ass

wow
--
Bear Bottoms
website: http://tr.im/1f9t

[Bear Bottoms[_4_]]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 04:30:06 GMT, Mike wrote:

> This is correct. I much prefer tight little boibutts.

wow


--
Bear Bottoms
website: http://tr.im/1f9t
--
Bear Bottoms
Private Attorney General

[Bear Bottoms[_3_]]

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008 15:34:25 GMT, Mike wrote:

> Thanks. I was confusing this with the 75"' dick in my mouth, I adore!

Hookay
--
Bear Bottoms
website: http://tr.im/1f9t