Norway may ditch the JSF!

[John Cook]

Hi All

Heres something from Reuters...


"U.S. arms giant Lockheed Martin Corp , which made the F-16s, was
accused by Norwegian politicians of failing to hand out enough
sub-contracts to Norwegian firms under a plan to develop a new
generation fighter.

"Up until 2009, Norway will consider all serious candidates," Defence
Minister Kristin Krohn Devold said of a decision between loyalty to
NATO ally Washington or switching to European partners.

"The main criteria for the choice will be the operational capability
of the plane," Krohn Devold told Reuters.

Norway has taken a stake in development of the Lockheed Martin F-35
Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) but is also considering the Eurofighter
jet.

Gripen, built by Sweden's Saab and Britain's BAE Systems , and French
Dassault's Rafale have previously been sidelined in Norway's political
debate. Analysts say that the Norwegian military clearly favours the
JSF.

Krohn Devold said there were favourites but declined to name any.
Asked if there were now three options, she said: "Or four. There is no
limit. All candidates will be considered."

Earlier, the head of parliamentary defence committee said that Norway
was looking at the Gripen jet because of disappointment over a lack of
Norwegian sub-contracts in developing the JSF.

"We have paid a lot of money to be part of the Joint Strike Fighter
project but so far it has not yielded much," Marit Nybakk told
Reuters.
"We have put a knife to their throat and told Lockheed Martin that we
will pull out of the cooperation unless there are some changes,"
Nybakk told Reuters.

Nybakk, an opposition Labour Party parliamentarian, denied that the
entry of the Gripen into the contest was an empty threat to wring
concessions from Lockheed.

Asked about Nybakk's criticisms, Krohn Devold said: "It is important
to get industrial opportunities through a purchase."

"We have received some but we would like to get more," said Krohn
Devold, a Conservative who has been criticised by opposition
politicans for being too pro-Washington.

Norway pays 100 million crowns ($14.50 million) a year for 10 years to
be part of the JSF development. Nybakk said it had paid 200 million
crowns with almost nothing to show in return.

Industry sources said that Norway could choose to withdraw its annual
payments to JSF and still pick U.S. warplanes.

Norway is one of eight countries that agreed to participate in the
$245 billion Joint Strike Fighter, the largest military aircraft
programme in history. Nybakk said Britain and the Netherlands were
also unhappy with the situation.

Norway is planning to buy about 48 new jets to replace its fleet of
F-16s some time after 2015 in a deal that would be worth an estimated
26 billion to 38 billion crowns, its biggest single military order
ever.

An industry source said the dissatisfaction with JSF was also good
news for Eurofighter, raising its chances in Norway. "

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4973218
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[Gunnar]

"John Cook" > skrev i melding
...
> Hi All
>
> Heres something from Reuters...
>
>
> "U.S. arms giant Lockheed Martin Corp , which made the F-16s, was
> accused by Norwegian politicians of failing to hand out enough
> sub-contracts to Norwegian firms under a plan to develop a new
> generation fighter.
>
> "Up until 2009, Norway will consider all serious candidates," Defence
> Minister Kristin Krohn Devold said of a decision between loyalty to
> NATO ally Washington or switching to European partners.
>
> "The main criteria for the choice will be the operational capability
> of the plane," Krohn Devold told Reuters.
>
> Norway has taken a stake in development of the Lockheed Martin F-35
> Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) but is also considering the Eurofighter
> jet.
>
> Gripen, built by Sweden's Saab and Britain's BAE Systems , and French
> Dassault's Rafale have previously been sidelined in Norway's political
> debate. Analysts say that the Norwegian military clearly favours the
> JSF.
>

Actually, the military favours the Eurofighter. The favour for the JSF was
of the political kind.
Typically from the right side in politics ( Krohn Devold ).


Gunnar


> Krohn Devold said there were favourites but declined to name any.
> Asked if there were now three options, she said: "Or four. There is no
> limit. All candidates will be considered."
>
> Earlier, the head of parliamentary defence committee said that Norway
> was looking at the Gripen jet because of disappointment over a lack of
> Norwegian sub-contracts in developing the JSF.
>
> "We have paid a lot of money to be part of the Joint Strike Fighter
> project but so far it has not yielded much," Marit Nybakk told
> Reuters.
> "We have put a knife to their throat and told Lockheed Martin that we
> will pull out of the cooperation unless there are some changes,"
> Nybakk told Reuters.
>
> Nybakk, an opposition Labour Party parliamentarian, denied that the
> entry of the Gripen into the contest was an empty threat to wring
> concessions from Lockheed.
>
> Asked about Nybakk's criticisms, Krohn Devold said: "It is important
> to get industrial opportunities through a purchase."
>
> "We have received some but we would like to get more," said Krohn
> Devold, a Conservative who has been criticised by opposition
> politicans for being too pro-Washington.
>
> Norway pays 100 million crowns ($14.50 million) a year for 10 years to
> be part of the JSF development. Nybakk said it had paid 200 million
> crowns with almost nothing to show in return.
>
> Industry sources said that Norway could choose to withdraw its annual
> payments to JSF and still pick U.S. warplanes.
>
> Norway is one of eight countries that agreed to participate in the
> $245 billion Joint Strike Fighter, the largest military aircraft
> programme in history. Nybakk said Britain and the Netherlands were
> also unhappy with the situation.
>
> Norway is planning to buy about 48 new jets to replace its fleet of
> F-16s some time after 2015 in a deal that would be worth an estimated
> 26 billion to 38 billion crowns, its biggest single military order
> ever.
>
> An industry source said the dissatisfaction with JSF was also good
> news for Eurofighter, raising its chances in Norway. "
>
> http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=4973218
> John Cook
>
> Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
> opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.
>
> Email Address :-
> Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
> Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[John Cook]

>Actually, the military favours the Eurofighter. The favour for the JSF was
>of the political kind.
>Typically from the right side in politics ( Krohn Devold ).

Interesting!!, where did you get that information from, I thought none
of that sort of information was made public?.

Cheers


John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[Gunnar]

"John Cook" > skrev i melding
...
>
> >Actually, the military favours the Eurofighter. The favour for the JSF
was
> >of the political kind.
> >Typically from the right side in politics ( Krohn Devold ).
>
> Interesting!!, where did you get that information from, I thought none
> of that sort of information was made public?.
>

I admitt to be slightly incorrect after checking my (public) sources.

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2002/06/14/337923.html
Link, but in norwegian.

The link says that an expert commision ( not, the military directly. I do
not know the composition of this commision, but it was put together by the
defencedepartment ) decided to go for the Eurofighter, but Krohn Devold
overruled it in favour of the JSF. It also speculates that she was "scared"
by the US to go for the JSF.

It was in the news two years ago...

All the best..
Gunnar

[Kevin Brooks]

"John Cook" > wrote in message
...
> Hi All
>
> Heres something from Reuters...
>
>
> "U.S. arms giant Lockheed Martin Corp , which made the F-16s, was
> accused by Norwegian politicians of failing to hand out enough
> sub-contracts to Norwegian firms under a plan to develop a new
> generation fighter.
>

Gee, John, I bet this got you so excited you could hardly type, eh? Why
don't you wait until the actual selection is made before you start trying
once again to attack all things USian?

Brooks

<snip>

[John Cook]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:17:57 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

>
>"John Cook" > wrote in message
...
>> Hi All
>>
>> Heres something from Reuters...
>>
>>
>> "U.S. arms giant Lockheed Martin Corp , which made the F-16s, was
>> accused by Norwegian politicians of failing to hand out enough
>> sub-contracts to Norwegian firms under a plan to develop a new
>> generation fighter.
>>
>
>Gee, John, I bet this got you so excited you could hardly type, eh? Why
>don't you wait until the actual selection is made before you start trying
>once again to attack all things USian?

Its from Reuters Kevin, and its regarding Military aviation....

The only bits I added were "Hi All, Here's something from
Reuters...", unless that means something 'derogatory to the US' in
Kevin world?.

Do you have _anything_ useful to add to the thread regarding the
JSF?.

Cheers




John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[John Cook]

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 16:08:32 +1000, John Cook >
wrote:

Some more news from an American source.
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/8557661.htm?1c

"Norway could quit JSF venture

By Dave Montgomery

Star-Telegram Washington Bureau


WASHINGTON - Tensions are surfacing in the 2-year-old international
partnership to develop Lockheed Martin's F-35 joint strike fighter,
with Norway threatening to abandon the $244 billion program unless it
gets a bigger share of developmental work.

Marit Nybakk, chairwoman of the Norwegian Parliament's defense
committee, said in a telephone interview Thursday that lawmakers will
decide whether to stay in the F-35 program when they debate the
country's long-term defense plans next month.

The Scandinavian country joined the nine-nation partnership in June
2002 by investing $125 million.

"This decision was made on the basis that Norwegian industry should be
involved with the development program, and so far very little has come
of that," Nybakk said.

John Kent, a spokesman at Lockheed Martin Aeronautics headquarters in
Fort Worth, said the U.S. aerospace company is "eager" to keep Norway
as a partner and is working with Norwegian officials to resolve the
disagreement. Norway has given Lockheed Martin until June 9 to propose
potential development work.

The partnership has been touted as a model of international
cooperation, joining the United States and eight Western allies in an
unprecedented arrangement to develop the world's costliest fighter.
The Lockheed-led team plans to build more than 3,500 F-35s after
production begins early in the next decade.

In recent months, however, partner nations including Denmark and the
Netherlands have complained that the United States has given them only
skimpy development work, in part because of the U.S. government's
ultrarigid restrictions on transferring sensitive technology abroad.

The potential effect of a withdrawal by Norway is difficult to gauge
because the country is one of the two smallest investors in the
partnership. Nevertheless, a defection by any of the countries would
draw unfavorable attention to the international project, give a boost
to foreign competitors and possibly fan discontent among the other
partners.

Richard Aboulafia, a defense analyst with the Teal Group in Fairfax,
Va., said Norway's assertiveness has a "mouse-that-roared quality" and
may be aimed at pressuring Lockheed Martin and the Pentagon into
giving the country of 4.5 million a more lucrative chunk of
developmental business.

"You have to wonder how much of this is posturing," Aboulafia said.

Johs Norheim, chairman of Norway's Industrial Defense Industry
Association, said Norway expected to get a hefty share of business
during the decade-long development program, which began in 2002.

"Now we're two years later, and, in principle, I would say that
Norwegian industry has not received anything of substance," he said by
telephone from Norway.

Norway's discontent intensified this month when Nybakk led a
delegation to Washington to meet with officials from the government
and Lockheed Martin.

Nybakk said the Norwegian government may turn its attention to the
Eurofighter or Sweden's JAS Gripen. Norway wants to replace 74 F-16s
that it began buying in 1980."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[Kevin Brooks]

"John Cook" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 15:17:57 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >"John Cook" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> Hi All
> >>
> >> Heres something from Reuters...
> >>
> >>
> >> "U.S. arms giant Lockheed Martin Corp , which made the F-16s, was
> >> accused by Norwegian politicians of failing to hand out enough
> >> sub-contracts to Norwegian firms under a plan to develop a new
> >> generation fighter.
> >>
> >
> >Gee, John, I bet this got you so excited you could hardly type, eh? Why
> >don't you wait until the actual selection is made before you start trying
> >once again to attack all things USian?
>
> Its from Reuters Kevin, and its regarding Military aviation....
>
> The only bits I added were "Hi All, Here's something from
> Reuters...", unless that means something 'derogatory to the US' in
> Kevin world?.
>
> Do you have _anything_ useful to add to the thread regarding the
> JSF?.

When are you going to make your premier pro-JSF post? About the same time as
you present your first "here is something *good* about the F/A-22" post, or
maybe in concurrence with your first-ever "Eurofighter encounters glitch"
post (something else we have not seen much about from you)? Or maybe hwen
you belatedly announce to us that the electric grid in Iraq is now serving
more customers than it did before OIF? But hey, you are not anti-American
now, are you...?

Brooks

>
> Cheers
>
>
>
>
> John Cook
>
> Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
> opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.
>
> Email Address :-
> Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
> Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[John Cook]

>> >Gee, John, I bet this got you so excited you could hardly type, eh? Why
>> >don't you wait until the actual selection is made before you start trying
>> >once again to attack all things USian?
>>
>> Its from Reuters Kevin, and its regarding Military aviation....
>>
>> The only bits I added were "Hi All, Here's something from
>> Reuters...", unless that means something 'derogatory to the US' in
>> Kevin world?.
>>
>> Do you have _anything_ useful to add to the thread regarding the
>> JSF?.
>
>When are you going to make your premier pro-JSF post? About the same time as
>you present your first "here is something *good* about the F/A-22" post, or
>maybe in concurrence with your first-ever "Eurofighter encounters glitch"
>post (something else we have not seen much about from you)? Or maybe hwen
>you belatedly announce to us that the electric grid in Iraq is now serving
>more customers than it did before OIF? But hey, you are not anti-American
>now, are you...?



Saying that more Iraqi's are being serviced by the electrical grid
isn't the best example you could give at the moment - Many have seen
the pictures of that Iraqi prisoner hooked up to it ;-).

My _Most recent_ Pro JSF Post
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=BVR+the+JSF+should+be++good,but+WVR+it+wo uld+suffer+if++it+didn%27t&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fker309dsspvcj17i8fugqu374vdfko6g7%404ax.com&rnum=1

F-22 is good post
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Jwcook%40ozemail.com.au+f-22+good&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=cbc1c949.0210021944.23b2c75b%40posting.google .com&rnum=9

Eurofighter encounters a glitch
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Jwcook%40ozemail.com.au+eurofighte r+crash&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=sm7a8vk5an5hfho4kdrj0qe6h5fish6tn4%404ax.com&rnum=1


The website I comaintain has plenty on the Eurofighters problems and
its successes....

Now answer my question - Do you have _anything_ useful to add to this
thread regarding the JSF?

Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[Kevin Brooks]

"John Cook" > wrote in message
...
>
> >> >Gee, John, I bet this got you so excited you could hardly type, eh?
Why
> >> >don't you wait until the actual selection is made before you start
trying
> >> >once again to attack all things USian?
> >>
> >> Its from Reuters Kevin, and its regarding Military aviation....
> >>
> >> The only bits I added were "Hi All, Here's something from
> >> Reuters...", unless that means something 'derogatory to the US' in
> >> Kevin world?.
> >>
> >> Do you have _anything_ useful to add to the thread regarding the
> >> JSF?.
> >
> >When are you going to make your premier pro-JSF post? About the same time
as
> >you present your first "here is something *good* about the F/A-22" post,
or
> >maybe in concurrence with your first-ever "Eurofighter encounters glitch"
> >post (something else we have not seen much about from you)? Or maybe hwen
> >you belatedly announce to us that the electric grid in Iraq is now
serving
> >more customers than it did before OIF? But hey, you are not anti-American
> >now, are you...?
>
>
>
> Saying that more Iraqi's are being serviced by the electrical grid
> isn't the best example you could give at the moment - Many have seen
> the pictures of that Iraqi prisoner hooked up to it ;-).

Not really a laughing matter--and of course, the individuals responsible
were brought up on charges before the press even went public with that
story. A number of personnel facing courts martial, and a fair number of
more senior leaders receiving non-judicial punishment for lesser related
offenses, because a troopie did what he was supposed to do (report
improper/illegal behavior). So the end game looks like a few individuals
screwed up, are facing the consequences, and the US Army met its obligation
to investigate and take punitive action where appropriate--not a bad thing,
IMO.

Now, are you so anti-US that you won't recognize that we did indeed
reconstruct the grid to extend beyond its pre-OIF limits (actually, that was
the case about four or five months ago, IIRC)? Or are you going to tell us
again the John Cook-translation-of-Iraqi-desires?

>
> My _Most recent_ Pro JSF Post
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=BVR+the+JSF+should+be++good,but+WVR+it+wo uld+suffer+if++it+didn%27t&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=fker309dsspvcj17i8fugqu374vdfko6g7%404ax.com&rnum=1

Gee, with all the "buts" and conditionals, you call that a *pro* post?

>
> F-22 is good post
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Jwcook%40ozemail.com.au+f-22+good&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=cbc1c949.0210021944.23b2c75b%40posting.google .com&rnum=9
>
I am impressed. So you actually do recognize that the F/A-22 is the top
performer worldwide?

> Eurofighter encounters a glitch
>
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Jwcook%40ozemail.com.au+eurofighte r+crash&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=sm7a8vk5an5hfho4kdrj0qe6h5fish6tn4%404ax.com&rnum=1
>

Uhmmm...all you did there was note that one crashed (kind of hard to dance
away from that one), and supposedly why that happened. OTOH, after a few
much more knowledgable folks took you to task over that whole "Typhoons whip
F-15's in spur-of-the-moment-DACM" bit, you continued to stick by that
account.


>
> The website I comaintain has plenty on the Eurofighters problems and
> its successes....
>
> Now answer my question - Do you have _anything_ useful to add to this
> thread regarding the JSF?

An ambitious aircraft development program of great promise, with a rather
radical (i.e., widespread participation)development plan, experiencing the
kind of developmental hiccups one should expect at this early stage of the
program. And the sky has not fallen, despite reports to the contrary.
>
> Cheers
> John Cook
>
> Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
> opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.
>
> Email Address :-
> Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
> Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[John Cook]

>> Eurofighter encounters a glitch
>>
>http://groups.google.com/groups?q=author:Jwcook%40ozemail.com.au+eurofighte r+crash&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=sm7a8vk5an5hfho4kdrj0qe6h5fish6tn4%404ax.com&rnum=1
>>
>
>Uhmmm...all you did there was note that one crashed (kind of hard to dance
>away from that one), and supposedly why that happened. OTOH, after a few
>much more knowledgable folks took you to task over that whole "Typhoons whip
>F-15's in spur-of-the-moment-DACM" bit, you continued to stick by that
>account.

Latest news is it happened in under 9 seconds, and the radar
recording of the event will be shown at one of the Typhoon displays
at future Airshows, Perhaps you could pop along and gaffaw in the
background.

>> Now answer my question - Do you have _anything_ useful to add to this
>> thread regarding the JSF?
>
>An ambitious aircraft development program of great promise, with a rather
>radical (i.e., widespread participation)development plan, experiencing the
>kind of developmental hiccups one should expect at this early stage of the
>program. And the sky has not fallen, despite reports to the contrary.


Thats useful!!! Bloody hell, Thanks a bunch Kevin!, you have finally
lowered my expectations of you to a level at which even you can
perform.

How about trying to stay on topic, If you want to argue, fine, go find
another nutcase and stop bleating about what a fine job everyones
doing in Iraq.

My dad used to say "you have to admire people who's opinions aint
swayed by reality"

Cheers
John Cook

Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All
opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

Email Address :-
Spam trap - please remove (trousers) to email me
Eurofighter Website :- http://www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk

[Mary Shafer]

On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 23:39:20 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
> wrote:

> "John Cook" > wrote in message
> ...

> > Saying that more Iraqi's are being serviced by the electrical grid
> > isn't the best example you could give at the moment - Many have seen
> > the pictures of that Iraqi prisoner hooked up to it ;-).
>
> Not really a laughing matter--and of course, the individuals responsible
> were brought up on charges before the press even went public with that
> story. A number of personnel facing courts martial, and a fair number of
> more senior leaders receiving non-judicial punishment for lesser related
> offenses, because a troopie did what he was supposed to do (report
> improper/illegal behavior). So the end game looks like a few individuals
> screwed up, are facing the consequences, and the US Army met its obligation
> to investigate and take punitive action where appropriate--not a bad thing,
> IMO.

Do you still feel that this has been handled promptly and properly?

Mary

--
Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer

[Kevin Brooks]

"Mary Shafer" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 23:39:20 -0400, "Kevin Brooks"
> > wrote:
>
> > "John Cook" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > > Saying that more Iraqi's are being serviced by the electrical grid
> > > isn't the best example you could give at the moment - Many have seen
> > > the pictures of that Iraqi prisoner hooked up to it ;-).
> >
> > Not really a laughing matter--and of course, the individuals responsible
> > were brought up on charges before the press even went public with that
> > story. A number of personnel facing courts martial, and a fair number of
> > more senior leaders receiving non-judicial punishment for lesser related
> > offenses, because a troopie did what he was supposed to do (report
> > improper/illegal behavior). So the end game looks like a few individuals
> > screwed up, are facing the consequences, and the US Army met its
obligation
> > to investigate and take punitive action where appropriate--not a bad
thing,
> > IMO.
>
> Do you still feel that this has been handled promptly and properly?

Look at the timeline--the report of the activities in question was received
by the chain of command on 16 Jan, IIRC, and the CID kicked off its
investigation within three days. Less than four months later the first
indicif-dual is getting ready to face a courts martial. How many *civil*
criminal proceedings do you see take off this quickly?
Sounds pretty prompt to me.

Properly? Sounds like it. CID was involved from the get-go, and the
commander began a 15-6 investigation concurrently. About the same time, the
Army announced that an investigation was underway to the press (not vice
versa). Key leaders in the suspect units were removed from command
immediately. Despite the inept braying of the media (on topics related,
large and small--I just lstened to CNN's Judy Woodruff tell her viewers that
today's editorial in Army Times...will undoubtedly be read by all US
Marines, who read each and every copy...(?!)), the system is working,
promptly and apparently efficiently.

You could toss up the rather general concerns raised by the ICRC last
year...but being as they were concerned with infractions that allegedly
occured the same month we began moving into Iraq, and included such weighty
concerns as keeping prisoners in unlighted cells (when 90 plus percent of
the entire Iraqi population was sililarly without power), I am not sure how
much creedance to give that approach.

Brooks

>
> Mary
>
> --
> Mary Shafer Retired aerospace research engineer
>

[John Cook]

More snippets of news....

It looks Like Italy is having the same problem with workshare, and are
very unhappy about it.

They too are reconsidering their participation.


cheers