Re: GW Bu$h's Torture Chambers and Rape rooms ...!

[Curtis CCR]

"The Todal" > wrote in message >...
> "Bystander" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message (snipped):
> > > > Six U.S. troops charged with Iraq torture
> >
> > I have seen the photos and they are appalling.
> >
> > The treatment of prisoners is utterly indefensible.
> >
> > At least America is dealing with it, and has admitted it. Many countries
> > that use torture would never dream of allowing these reports.
>
> Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: now that it's in the public
> domain the PR people in the White House and the Pentagon can see that it is
> indefensible and they are duly blaming it all on renegade troops or (better
> still) outside contractors. Meanwhile, all the other torture will not be
> admitted until it has been discovered.

This incident was being investigated before it came out in the news.
The first news reports I saw of this (I think CBS was the network that
"broke" the story) said that dicipline was already being handed out to
those directly involved and to several officers, including a general,
in the responsible command.

Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
doing crap like this.

[Krztalizer]

You'd think by now, folks from the "Americas Funniest Home Videos" generation
would understand that there are some times you really should just leave the
camera in the bag...

I agree though - this doesn't reflect on the President directly, but you can be
damn sure he knows what kind of repercussions are going to happen. Those US
soldiers in the photos may as well go jump off a cliff, because every
grandstanding politician from here to India is going to be using it as an
excuse to appear on tv, denouncing the unforgiveable crime of showing us these
guy's furry asses.

Yuck.

[George Z. Bush]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> You'd think by now, folks from the "Americas Funniest Home Videos" generation
> would understand that there are some times you really should just leave the
> camera in the bag...
>
> I agree though - this doesn't reflect on the President directly, but you can
be
> damn sure he knows what kind of repercussions are going to happen. Those US
> soldiers in the photos may as well go jump off a cliff, because every
> grandstanding politician from here to India is going to be using it as an
> excuse to appear on tv, denouncing the unforgiveable crime of showing us these
> guy's furry asses.
>
> Yuck.

For a change, I completely agree with one of the President's public statements.
The Americans responsible for those photographs who indulged themselves for
their own pleasure apparently don't even have a clue as to how many additional
American lives their fun and games are going to cost us down the road.

It was a disgusting performance by a bunch of brainless jerks responsible for
the health and well-being of Iraqi prisoners. If they're military people, they
deserve to be courts-martialed, and if they're contract employees, they ought to
be terminated and abandoned where they stand to find their own ways out of Iraq.

If the job isn't tough enough, it's pretty sad that some of our enemies turn out
to be our own people.

George Z.
>
>

[Simon Robbins]

"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
> I agree though - this doesn't reflect on the President directly, but you
can be
> damn sure he knows what kind of repercussions are going to happen.

I think they should be hauled before the Joint Chiefs, told "do you realise
this footage could loose us the war?" then have the photos sown to their
skins before being air-dropped naked into Falluja.

Si

[Yardpilot]

"Curtis CCR" > wrote in message
om...
> "The Todal" > wrote in message
>...
> > "Bystander" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >
> > > "=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message (snipped):
> > > > > Six U.S. troops charged with Iraq torture
> > >
> > > I have seen the photos and they are appalling.
> > >
> > > The treatment of prisoners is utterly indefensible.
> > >
> > > At least America is dealing with it, and has admitted it. Many countries
> > > that use torture would never dream of allowing these reports.
> >
> > Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: now that it's in the public
> > domain the PR people in the White House and the Pentagon can see that it is
> > indefensible and they are duly blaming it all on renegade troops or (better
> > still) outside contractors. Meanwhile, all the other torture will not be
> > admitted until it has been discovered.
>
> This incident was being investigated before it came out in the news.
> The first news reports I saw of this (I think CBS was the network that
> "broke" the story) said that dicipline was already being handed out to
> those directly involved and to several officers, including a general,
> in the responsible command.
>
> Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> doing crap like this.

Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get away
with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

[Morton Davis]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02...
>
> "Curtis CCR" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "The Todal" > wrote in message
> >...
> > > "Bystander" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >
> > > > "=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message (snipped):
> > > > > > Six U.S. troops charged with Iraq torture
> > > >
> > > > I have seen the photos and they are appalling.
> > > >
> > > > The treatment of prisoners is utterly indefensible.
> > > >
> > > > At least America is dealing with it, and has admitted it. Many
countries
> > > > that use torture would never dream of allowing these reports.
> > >
> > > Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: now that it's in the
public
> > > domain the PR people in the White House and the Pentagon can see that
it is
> > > indefensible and they are duly blaming it all on renegade troops or
(better
> > > still) outside contractors. Meanwhile, all the other torture will not
be
> > > admitted until it has been discovered.
> >
> > This incident was being investigated before it came out in the news.
> > The first news reports I saw of this (I think CBS was the network that
> > "broke" the story) said that dicipline was already being handed out to
> > those directly involved and to several officers, including a general,
> > in the responsible command.
> >
> > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > doing crap like this.
>
> Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
get away
> with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
or
> support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>
>
Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the burned
bodies of our dead from bridges? There are none because we are not cheering.

-*MORT*-

[Pooched]

On 30 Apr 2004 10:08:02 -0700, (Curtis CCR)
wrote:

>"The Todal" > wrote in message >...
>> "Bystander" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message (snipped):
>> > > > Six U.S. troops charged with Iraq torture
>> >
>> > I have seen the photos and they are appalling.
>> >
>> > The treatment of prisoners is utterly indefensible.
>> >
>> > At least America is dealing with it, and has admitted it. Many countries
>> > that use torture would never dream of allowing these reports.
>>
>> Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: now that it's in the public
>> domain the PR people in the White House and the Pentagon can see that it is
>> indefensible and they are duly blaming it all on renegade troops or (better
>> still) outside contractors. Meanwhile, all the other torture will not be
>> admitted until it has been discovered.
>
>This incident was being investigated before it came out in the news.
>The first news reports I saw of this (I think CBS was the network that
>"broke" the story) said that dicipline was already being handed out to
>those directly involved and to several officers, including a general,
>in the responsible command.
>
>Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
>doing crap like this.

America DESERVES 9/11. America DESERVES another terrorist attack. I
was thrilled on 9/11 (apologies to the victims and their families).
It's only a matter of time before someone else gets fed up with
Amerika and attacks us again. The only solution to this problem is
diplomacy. America COULD resolve the differences with the Muslims.

It would help if someone could tell me WHY the Muslims hated us to
begin with. Torturing POW's and Hanoi-style incarceration of "Enemy
Combatants" is PROBABLY part of why Muslims hate us now. I'd like to
know why they hated us in the 1st place.

[Pooched]

On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
wrote:

>Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get away
>with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
>support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
recently went through this.

[PLMerite]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...

(snip)


**** off, Kraut.


Regards, PLMerite

--
"If you rub it in both at home and abroad that you are ready for instant
war... and intend to be first in and hit your enemy in the belly and kick
him when he is down and boil your prisoners in oil (if you take any)... and
torture his women and children, then people will keep clear of you."
Vice Admiral Sir John Fisher, Royal Navy, 1898.

[Pooched]

On Sat, 01 May 2004 01:46:10 GMT, "PLMerite"
> wrote:

>
>"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
>
>(snip)
>
>
>**** off, Kraut.
>
>
>Regards, PLMerite

If you'd like to live in country where criticising the gov't isn't
allowed, there are plenty to choose from. =)

Love,

Pooched.

[Chas]

"Pooched" > wrote
> It would help if someone could tell me WHY the Muslims hated us to
> begin with.

It's the central tenet of the religion; Submit & Recite.
And we're not the only ones they hate. They're at war in China, India,
SEAsia, Indonesia, the Filipines, East Africa, North Africa, all through the
former SovUn.
They are a warrior religion, founded by a bandit and raider, and they've
been at war with the world for 1300 years.

Chas

[Steve Hix]

In article >,
Pooched > wrote:

> America DESERVES 9/11. America DESERVES another terrorist attack. I
> was thrilled on 9/11 (apologies to the victims and their families).

You can have one or the other, not both.

In short, your apology is worth less than nothing.

> It's only a matter of time before someone else gets fed up with
> Amerika and attacks us again.

FOAD

> The only solution to this problem is
> diplomacy. America COULD resolve the differences with the Muslims.

Only two options would work to their satisfaction:

1) *All* of us convert to Islam.
2) Alternatively, we all die.

Neither will happen.

[Morton Davis]

"Chas" > wrote in message
...
> "Pooched" > wrote
> > It would help if someone could tell me WHY the Muslims hated us to
> > begin with.
>
> It's the central tenet of the religion; Submit & Recite.
> And we're not the only ones they hate. They're at war in China, India,
> SEAsia, Indonesia, the Filipines, East Africa, North Africa, all through
the
> former SovUn.
>
Don't forget Thailand.

-*MORT*-

[[email protected]]

"George Z. Bush" > wrote:

>
>"Krztalizer" > wrote in message
...
>> You'd think by now, folks from the "Americas Funniest Home Videos" generation
>> would understand that there are some times you really should just leave the
>> camera in the bag...
>>
>> I agree though - this doesn't reflect on the President directly, but you can
>be
>> damn sure he knows what kind of repercussions are going to happen. Those US
>> soldiers in the photos may as well go jump off a cliff, because every
>> grandstanding politician from here to India is going to be using it as an
>> excuse to appear on tv, denouncing the unforgiveable crime of showing us these
>> guy's furry asses.
>>
>> Yuck.
>
>For a change, I completely agree with one of the President's public statements.
>The Americans responsible for those photographs who indulged themselves for
>their own pleasure apparently don't even have a clue as to how many additional
>American lives their fun and games are going to cost us down the road.
>
>It was a disgusting performance by a bunch of brainless jerks responsible for
>the health and well-being of Iraqi prisoners. If they're military people, they
>deserve to be courts-martialed, and if they're contract employees, they ought to
>be terminated and abandoned where they stand to find their own ways out of Iraq.
>
>If the job isn't tough enough, it's pretty sad that some of our enemies turn out
>to be our own people.
>
>George Z.
>>
>>
>
Are these really humans?...I saw no evidence of it here. In the
same vein as the jerks who caused the Canadian Airbourne
Regiment's disbandment a few years ago...senseless nincompoops
without a brain in their heads...
--

-Gord.

[Yardpilot]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> wrote:
>
> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
away
> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>
> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> recently went through this.

I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

[Yardpilot]

"Morton Davis" > wrote in message
news:KACkc.1001$Ia6.92253@attbi_s03...
>
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02...
> >
> > "Curtis CCR" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "The Todal" > wrote in message
> > >...
> > > > "Bystander" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >
> > > > > "=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message (snipped):
> > > > > > > Six U.S. troops charged with Iraq torture
> > > > >
> > > > > I have seen the photos and they are appalling.
> > > > >
> > > > > The treatment of prisoners is utterly indefensible.
> > > > >
> > > > > At least America is dealing with it, and has admitted it. Many
> countries
> > > > > that use torture would never dream of allowing these reports.
> > > >
> > > > Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: now that it's in the
> public
> > > > domain the PR people in the White House and the Pentagon can see that
> it is
> > > > indefensible and they are duly blaming it all on renegade troops or
> (better
> > > > still) outside contractors. Meanwhile, all the other torture will not
> be
> > > > admitted until it has been discovered.
> > >
> > > This incident was being investigated before it came out in the news.
> > > The first news reports I saw of this (I think CBS was the network that
> > > "broke" the story) said that dicipline was already being handed out to
> > > those directly involved and to several officers, including a general,
> > > in the responsible command.
> > >
> > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > > doing crap like this.
> >
> > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
> get away
> > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
> or
> > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >
> >
> Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
> happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the burned
> bodies of our dead from bridges? There are none because we are not cheering.

If something like this happens, we crack down on the perpetrators. Few if any
people celebrate such things. It seems we worry more about people in other
countries than we do our own when it comes to abuse of authority.

[BUFDRVR]

>I think they should be hauled before the Joint Chiefs, told "do you realise
>this footage could loose us the war?" then have the photos sown to their
>skins before being air-dropped naked into Falluja.

I would give each one them an M-16 and a ride to Najaf, they would serve as
infantry in the hottest spots in Iraq (including the female) until their trial.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Matt Wiser]

Steve Hix > wrote:
>In article >,
> "Simon Robbins" >
>wrote:
>
>> "Bystander" >
>wrote in message
>> ...
>> > At least America is dealing with it, and
>has admitted it. Many countries
>> > that use torture would never dream of allowing
>these reports.
>>
>> It's been reported in the UK that the Pentagon's
>spent the last two weeks
>> trying to prevent the public disclosure of
>these photos by the American
>> media, and apparently succeeded considering
>they're only showing them now
>> since they leaked out from elsewhere.
>
>Did you fail to note that, in addition, they've
>been investigating the
>issue with the goal of punishing the guilty?
That is something the loony left doesn't understand. Most militaries would
never bother investigating the allegations; the U.S. and Britain do, and
when facts justify, prosecute in the Military Justice System those accused.
Let the JAG and CID folks do their jobs, and see if anyone is reccommended
for a Court-Martial.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[[email protected]]

"Morton Davis" > wrote:

>>
>Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
>happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the burned
>bodies of our dead from bridges? There are none because we are not cheering.
>
>-*MORT*-
>
Damned true...that just shows how we think...I'm God Damned sure
glad that I happened to be born into this way of thinking than
into theirs.
--

-Gord.

[Thomas Anantharaman]

Curtis CCR wrote:

>"The Todal" > wrote in message >...
>
>
>>"Bystander" > wrote in message
...
>>
>>
>>>"=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message (snipped):
>>>
>>>
>>>>>Six U.S. troops charged with Iraq torture
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>I have seen the photos and they are appalling.
>>>
>>>The treatment of prisoners is utterly indefensible.
>>>
>>>At least America is dealing with it, and has admitted it. Many countries
>>>that use torture would never dream of allowing these reports.
>>>
>>>
>>Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: now that it's in the public
>>domain the PR people in the White House and the Pentagon can see that it is
>>indefensible and they are duly blaming it all on renegade troops or (better
>>still) outside contractors. Meanwhile, all the other torture will not be
>>admitted until it has been discovered.
>>
>>
>
>This incident was being investigated before it came out in the news.
>The first news reports I saw of this (I think CBS was the network that
>"broke" the story) said that dicipline was already being handed out to
>those directly involved and to several officers, including a general,
>in the responsible command.
>
>Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
>doing crap like this.
>

US military has a long tradition of being one of the least tolerant of
all military organizations of crimes committed by its personel and I am
proud of this tradtion.

However it is disturbing that for the first time:

1. The US government is actively keeping all disciplinary action secret,
and "bribing" most reporters with embedded positions to report only what
they want reported. So unless a reporter with less access than the
"embedded" reporters somehow manages to get access to the information,
the US government pretends like it doesn't happen and then suddenly
pretends they are shocked.

2. The US government allowed a civilian contractor who raped an Iraqi
prisoner to go free : The Military justifiably claims it has no
jurisdiction, but the US government, which rules Iraq, should have
stepped up to the plate and arrested the constractor under Iraqi law (I
am sure rape is illegal even in Iraq) and thrown him in an Iraqi jail to
face trail for rape in front of an Iraqi Judge. I doubt they are
allowing Iraqis civilians guilty of rape to escape punishment just
because they are not subject to US Court Martial.

[[email protected]]

"Yardpilot" > wrote:

>
>"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
>away
>> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
>> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>>
>> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>> recently went through this.
>
>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>
Can't take his word for it?...I assure you that it did
happen...he's now in the process of suing all and sundry over it.

I could probably google it for you if you ask real nice.
--

-Gord.

[[email protected]]

"Morton Davis" > wrote:

>
>"Chas" > wrote in message
...
>> "Pooched" > wrote
>> > It would help if someone could tell me WHY the Muslims hated us to
>> > begin with.
>>
>> It's the central tenet of the religion; Submit & Recite.
>> And we're not the only ones they hate. They're at war in China, India,
>> SEAsia, Indonesia, the Filipines, East Africa, North Africa, all through
>the
>> former SovUn.
>>
>Don't forget Thailand.
>
>-*MORT*-
>
Don't forget anyone, anywhere, who isn't Muslim (and isn't dead).

Quite the holy religion you got there bub, yessiree bob.
--

-Gord.

[Bama Brian]

Curtis CCR wrote:

> "The Todal" > wrote in message
> >...
>> "Bystander" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > "=> Vox Populi ©" > wrote in message (snipped):
>> > > > Six U.S. troops charged with Iraq torture
>> >
>> > I have seen the photos and they are appalling.
>> >
>> > The treatment of prisoners is utterly indefensible.
>> >
>> > At least America is dealing with it, and has admitted it. Many
>> > countries that use torture would never dream of allowing these reports.
>>
>> Well, perhaps it would be more accurate to say: now that it's in the
>> public domain the PR people in the White House and the Pentagon can see
>> that it is indefensible and they are duly blaming it all on renegade
>> troops or (better
>> still) outside contractors. Meanwhile, all the other torture will not be
>> admitted until it has been discovered.
>
> This incident was being investigated before it came out in the news.
> The first news reports I saw of this (I think CBS was the network that
> "broke" the story) said that dicipline was already being handed out to
> those directly involved and to several officers, including a general,
> in the responsible command.

Those were at the Abu Grhaib prison. So far I've not heard that those who
took the photos were arrested.

Here's a revisionist thought: What if the photos were taken by the Iraqis
themselves for propaganda purposes?

BTW, if the photos were taken by American soldiers I expect to see
courts-martial for them, and nice long prison sentences - with Iraqi
guards!

--
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
--------------
In the Y2K presidential elections, there were 103 million eligible voters -
of whom 51 million voted for "None of the above" by not voting.

[Pooched]

On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
wrote:

>
>"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
>away
>> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
>> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>>
>> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>> recently went through this.
>
>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>

I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:

http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_comments.php?id=1111_0_10_0_C
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/
http://911review.org/Wiki/Arar,Maher.shtml

Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.

[Jim Knoyle]

"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
> "Morton Davis" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Chas" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> "Pooched" > wrote
> >> > It would help if someone could tell me WHY the Muslims hated us to
> >> > begin with.
> >>
> >> It's the central tenet of the religion; Submit & Recite.
> >> And we're not the only ones they hate. They're at war in China, India,
> >> SEAsia, Indonesia, the Filipines, East Africa, North Africa, all
through
> >the
> >> former SovUn.
> >>
> >Don't forget Thailand.
> >
> >-*MORT*-
> >
> Don't forget anyone, anywhere, who isn't Muslim (and isn't dead).
>
> Quite the holy religion you got there bub, yessiree bob.
> --
>
Applies to many religions, Gord, possibly sans bullets.
Picture in your mind this particular heathen about seventy feet
up on the side of a certain edifice in Salt Lake City, UT
cutting grout with a fairly hefty electric saw when the guide
escorting the visitors in the park below tells his group,
"We believe that anyone who has not accepted the ******
faith is not worth a damn." (exact words)
Probably a good thing that that saw was tied off at the end
of a 15 foot power cord!

JK

[Asmodeus]

"Morton Davis" > wrote in
news:KACkc.1001$Ia6.92253@attbi_s03:

> Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
> happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the
> burned bodies of our dead from bridges?

The closest we can come to that are the appeaceniks who cheer
when the terrorists kill American soldiers and called Tillman
a babykiller.

--
"It's obvious to me that this country is rapidly dividing itself into
two camps - the wimps and the warriors. The ones who want to argue
and assess and appease, and the ones who want to carry this fight to
our enemies and kill them before they kill us."
--The Hon. Zell Miller

[PLMerite]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...

>
> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.

Obviously that's because you're spelling it wrong when you look it up,
Fritz.

Regards, PLMerite

--
"If you rub it in both at home and abroad that you are ready for instant
war... and intend to be first in and hit your enemy in the belly and kick
him when he is down and boil your prisoners in oil (if you take any)... and
torture his women and children, then people will keep clear of you."
Vice Admiral Sir John Fisher, Royal Navy, 1898.

[[email protected]]

"Jim Knoyle" > wrote:

>
>"Gord Beaman" > wrote in message
...
>> "Morton Davis" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Chas" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> "Pooched" > wrote
>> >> > It would help if someone could tell me WHY the Muslims hated us to
>> >> > begin with.
>> >>
>> >> It's the central tenet of the religion; Submit & Recite.
>> >> And we're not the only ones they hate. They're at war in China, India,
>> >> SEAsia, Indonesia, the Filipines, East Africa, North Africa, all
>through
>> >the
>> >> former SovUn.
>> >>
>> >Don't forget Thailand.
>> >
>> >-*MORT*-
>> >
>> Don't forget anyone, anywhere, who isn't Muslim (and isn't dead).
>>
>> Quite the holy religion you got there bub, yessiree bob.
>> --
>>
>Applies to many religions, Gord, possibly sans bullets.
>Picture in your mind this particular heathen about seventy feet
>up on the side of a certain edifice in Salt Lake City, UT
>cutting grout with a fairly hefty electric saw when the guide
>escorting the visitors in the park below tells his group,
>"We believe that anyone who has not accepted the ******
>faith is not worth a damn." (exact words)
>Probably a good thing that that saw was tied off at the end
>of a 15 foot power cord!
>
>JK
>
Well, you gotta give him credit for having large brass ones for
daring to do that!...or perhaps boundless stupidity?
--

-Gord.

[Yardpilot]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
get
> >away
> >> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
or
> >> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >>
> >> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >> recently went through this.
> >
> >I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
> >posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >
>
> I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:
>
> http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_comments.php?id=1111_0_10_0_C

Doesn't support your claim.

> http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/

Doesn't support your claim. In fact, it makes Canada look rathe bad.

> http://911review.org/Wiki/Arar,Maher.shtml

Doesn't support your claim.

>
> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.

Then you haven't actually looked.

[Ken Smith]

Yardpilot wrote:
> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
>>On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>>wrote:
>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
>>>>On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>>>>wrote:


>>>>>Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
>>>>>get away
>>>>>with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
>>>>> or
>
>>>>>support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>>>>
>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>>>>recently went through this.
>>>
>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>
>>I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:
>>
>>http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_comments.php?id=1111_0_10_0_C
>
> Doesn't support your claim.
>
>>http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/
>
> Doesn't support your claim. In fact, it makes Canada look rathe bad.

I don't see this at all. Hell, if *my* federal government went to as
much trouble to remedy human rights violations committed against me, I'd
be more than satisfied.
>
>>http://911review.org/Wiki/Arar,Maher.shtml
>
> Doesn't support your claim.
>
>>Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
>
> Then you haven't actually looked.
>
YP's right -- you really haven't. CBS News did a piece on him. So
did the Time and the Post. Caused quite a flap, iirc. Even Chretien
protested.

[Pooched]

On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:59:25 GMT, Ken Smith > wrote:
> YP's right -- you really haven't. CBS News did a piece on him. So
>did the Time and the Post. Caused quite a flap, iirc. Even Chretien
>protested.
>

I found it originally on CBS + CNN. But they don't have unlimited
browsing of past articles so I couldn't dig it up again.

[Pooched]

On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
wrote:
>> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
>
>Then you haven't actually looked.
>

Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.

[Yardpilot]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> wrote:
> >> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
> >
> >Then you haven't actually looked.
> >
>
> Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.

You're the one that made a false claim, dudley. The information was readily
available.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
>
> > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > doing crap like this.
>
> Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get away
> with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
> support such actions, and punishes the people involved.

It's not not good.

In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.

That's rotten leadership from the top down.

Two POWs in Afghanistan were beaten to death while in US custody.
The deaths were officially ruled to be homicides. That was two
years ago and the DOD remains silent on the 'investigation'.
There were reports of two other incidents in Afghanistan in which
Civilian Prisoners were beaten by US troops, again, no word from
the Pentagon.

The difference between those incidents and the instant case is
photographs.

If the photographs of My Lai hadn't been published do you really
think Calley would ever have been prosecuted?

I'm sure the overwhelming majority of our troops in the field
are good men and women and would not take part in such crimes.
Their leaders have let them down by condoning and encouraging
incidents such as these.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
> away
> > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
> > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >
> > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> > recently went through this.
>
> I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
> posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?

Jesus Christ! Do you ever read a newspaper?

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Scott" > wrote in message >...
> "joe parkin" > wrote in message
> ...
>
> The document purporting to show that Saddam was trying to obtain uranium
> from Nigeria came from the US - presumably the CIA. It was full of
> elementary blunders - an easily detected forgery.

They (a colleciton of documents, not just one) weren't written
by the CIA. They were written by an employee of the Embassy of
Niger in Italy who sold them to the Itallian government who
turned them ofer to the British Government who turned them
over to the US Government and I have never heard that any-
one in any intelligence agency ever thought there even a
remote chance that they were genuine.

Which kinda makes you wonder why the US government turned them
over to the IAEA. Persons within US intelligence who actually
were familiar wiht them HAD to know the IAEA would realize
they were false. One wonders if there are persons in US
intelligence who wanted the truth to come out.

--

FF

[Morton Davis]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
> >
> > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > > doing crap like this.
> >
> > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
get away
> > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
or
> > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>
> It's not not good.
>
> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
>

Not by accepted definitions of torture.

-*MORT*-

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"- DefaultUser" > wrote in message >...
>
> Like they did when those U.S. Flyboys ignored orders and murdered
> Canadian troops in Afghanistan?


Murder, in this context, implies an intent to kill the Canadian
troops. I daresay there was never even any suspician of
murder, nor grounds for it.

Would you car to bring us up to date on the current disposition
of this incident?

--

FF

[Asmodeus]

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in
om:

> Do you ever read a newspaper?

The Birkenstock Times in your case.

--
"It's obvious to me that this country is rapidly dividing itself into
two camps - the wimps and the warriors. The ones who want to argue
and assess and appease, and the ones who want to carry this fight to
our enemies and kill them before they kill us."
--The Hon. Zell Miller

[George Z. Bush]

Fred the Red Shirt wrote:
> "- DefaultUser" > wrote in message
> >...
>>
>> Like they did when those U.S. Flyboys ignored orders and murdered
>> Canadian troops in Afghanistan?
>
>
> Murder, in this context, implies an intent to kill the Canadian
> troops. I daresay there was never even any suspician of
> murder, nor grounds for it.
>
> Would you car to bring us up to date on the current disposition
> of this incident?

There were four Canadians killed in the incident, and 8 more wounded. As best
as I can remember, an Article 92 hearing (the military equivalent of a grand
jury) was held but did not recommend courts-martial action against the two
pilots involved. The older of the two American pilots was given non-judicial
punishment (Article 15) and then permitted to apply for retirement. The other
pilot also received non-judicial punishment and was referred to a Flying
Evaluation Board to consider whether or not he was fit to continue with his
flying duties; I don't recall what the outcome of that was.

One of the four Canadian families of the victims filed suit against the US
government for damages. I don't know the disposition of that lawsuit, but if
anyone wanted my advice, it'd be to settle up as quickly and quietly as
possible.

If I've got anything wrong, please feel free to correct me. I'm not absolutely
sure that it's all completely accurate.

George Z.

[Matt Wiser]

"- DefaultUser" > wrote:
>
>"Matt Wiser" > wrote
>in message
>news:4093c17f$1@bg2....
>>
>> Steve Hix >
>wrote:
>> >In article >,
>> > "Simon Robbins" >
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> "Bystander" >
>> >wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >> > At least America is dealing with it,
>and
>> >has admitted it. Many countries
>> >> > that use torture would never dream of
>allowing
>> >these reports.
>> >>
>> >> It's been reported in the UK that the Pentagon's
>> >spent the last two weeks
>> >> trying to prevent the public disclosure
>of
>> >these photos by the American
>> >> media, and apparently succeeded considering
>> >they're only showing them now
>> >> since they leaked out from elsewhere.
>> >
>> >Did you fail to note that, in addition, they've
>> >been investigating the
>> >issue with the goal of punishing the guilty?
>> That is something the loony left doesn't
>understand. Most militaries
>would
>> never bother investigating the allegations;
>the U.S. and Britain do, and
>> when facts justify, prosecute in the Military
>Justice System those
>accused.
>> Let the JAG and CID folks do their jobs, and
>see if anyone is reccommended
>> for a Court-Martial.
>
>Like they did when those U.S. Flyboys ignored
>orders and murdered
>Canadian troops in Afghanistan?
>
>
The flight leader I believe is still in the legal system: He was offered
a deal but didn't take it.

Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Pooched]

On 2 May 2004 11:54:33 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>> "Pooched" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
>> away
>> > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
>> > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>> >
>> > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>> > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>> > recently went through this.
>>
>> I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>> posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>
>Jesus Christ! Do you ever read a newspaper?

SHHHH! You'll ruin Dubya's chances of getting reelected if you force
his priests to see the world as it really is!

[Pooched]

On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis" >
wrote:

>
>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
>> >
>> > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
>> > > doing crap like this.
>> >
>> > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
>get away
>> > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
>or
>> > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>>
>> It's not not good.
>>
>> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
>> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
>> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
>> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
>>
>
>Not by accepted definitions of torture.
>

How Republican of you to point that out. Lets see you stand in the
same 1 foot circle for 48 hours. Lets see you not be allowed to sleep
for 4 days.

It's attitudes like yours that CAUSE terrorist attacks. Hopefully
you'll be in the next building or on the next bridge that gets blown
up. Say hi to Satan for me on your way.

[Peter H Proctor]

On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis" >
wrote:

>"Fred the Red Shirt"

>> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
>> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
>> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
>> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.

>Not by accepted definitions of torture.

Physical torture doesn't give reliable information anyway.
People will tell you anything to stop the pain.

However, psychological techniques do work very well, though
slower. First, cut people away from their support system and
deprive them of sleep. Always keep them off balance and insecure
about their status, where they are and evn about time.

In the case of "Shame-based" cultures, make people do
"forbidden things" to cut down their psychological defenses. Sound
familiar ? -- remember, Japanese soldiers in WW2 who were captured
even involuntarily tended to be very cooperative. Give captives an
aggressor to identify with. Maybe a little "good cop", bad cop"
thrown in. Eventually, they will be putty....

Before you throw up your hands in horror, what if you
reasonably believe that you can save many lives by this process,
which does no physical harm?

PHP

[Morton Davis]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On 2 May 2004 11:54:33 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
>
> >"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
can get
> >> away
> >> > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone or
> >> > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >> >
> >> > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >> > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >> > recently went through this.
> >>
> >> I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind
> >> posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >
> >Jesus Christ! Do you ever read a newspaper?
>
> SHHHH! You'll ruin Dubya's chances of getting reelected if you force
> his priests to see the world as it really is!

Reality escapes you.

-*MORT*-

[You Know Who]

>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:

>
>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
>> > ...
>> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
>get
>> > away
>> > > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
>or
>> > > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>> > >
>> > > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>> > > recently went through this.
>> >
>> > I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>> > posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>
>> Jesus Christ!
>
>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

What makes you think He was mythical? Was Pontius Pilate mythical?

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
get
> > away
> > > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
or
> > > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> > >
> > > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> > > recently went through this.
> >
> > I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
> > posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>
> Jesus Christ!

Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

> Do you ever read a newspaper?

Yes. That has nothing whatever to do with this, tinman. The claim was
unsupported.

[Yardpilot]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On 2 May 2004 11:54:33 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
>
> >"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
get
> >> away
> >> > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
or
> >> > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >> >
> >> > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >> > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >> > recently went through this.
> >>
> >> I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
> >> posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >
> >Jesus Christ! Do you ever read a newspaper?
>
> SHHHH! You'll ruin Dubya's chances of getting reelected if you force
> his priests to see the world as it really is!

So, you can't support your claim. No surprise there.

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
> >
> > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > > doing crap like this.
> >
> > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
away
> > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
> > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>
> It's not not good.
>
> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.

Do feel free to support your claim.

> That's rotten leadership from the top down.
>
> Two POWs in Afghanistan were beaten to death while in US custody.
> The deaths were officially ruled to be homicides. That was two
> years ago and the DOD remains silent on the 'investigation'.
> There were reports of two other incidents in Afghanistan in which
> Civilian Prisoners were beaten by US troops, again, no word from
> the Pentagon.

Do feel free to support your claim.

>
> The difference between those incidents and the instant case is
> photographs.
>
> If the photographs of My Lai hadn't been published do you really
> think Calley would ever have been prosecuted?

Yes.

> I'm sure the overwhelming majority of our troops in the field
> are good men and women and would not take part in such crimes.

Yup.

> Their leaders have let them down by condoning and encouraging
> incidents such as these.

Nope. Those responsible will be dealt with. BTW, are you aware of who it was
that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

[Yardpilot]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis" >
> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> >news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
> >> >
> >> > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> >> > > doing crap like this.
> >> >
> >> > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
> >get away
> >> > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
> >or
> >> > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >>
> >> It's not not good.
> >>
> >> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> >> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> >> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> >> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> >>
> >
> >Not by accepted definitions of torture.
> >
>
> How Republican of you to point that out. Lets see you stand in the
> same 1 foot circle for 48 hours. Lets see you not be allowed to sleep
> for 4 days.

Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

[Yardpilot]

"You Know Who" > wrote in message
s.com...
> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> >news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> >> > ...
> >> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
can
> >get
> >> > away
> >> > > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone
> >or
> >> > > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >> > >
> >> > > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >> > > recently went through this.
> >> >
> >> > I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind
> >> > posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >>
> >> Jesus Christ!
> >
> >Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>
> What makes you think He was mythical?

It's a matter of faith.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Morton Davis" > wrote in message news:<XGblc.11724$IG1.386923@attbi_s04>...
> > >
> > In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> > Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> > into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> > same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> >
>
> Not by accepted definitions of torture.
>

Accepted by whom?

Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.

--

FF

[You Know Who]

>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:

>
>"You Know Who" > wrote in message
s.com...
>> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>> >news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>> >> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
>> >> > ...
>> >> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>> >> > > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
>can
>> >get
>> >> > away
>> >> > > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
>condone
>> >or
>> >> > > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>> >> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>> >> > > recently went through this.
>> >> >
>> >> > I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
>mind
>> >> > posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>> >>
>> >> Jesus Christ!
>> >
>> >Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>>
>> What makes you think He was mythical?
>
>It's a matter of faith.

Your faith makes you think He's mythical?

[Ken Smith]

You Know Who wrote:
>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message

[snip]

>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>>>>>recently went through this.
>>>>
>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>>
>>>Jesus Christ!
>>
>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>
> What makes you think He was mythical?

A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.

Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
even as Pilate was a historical figure.


Was Pontius Pilate mythical?

[Morton Davis]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
m...
> "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
news:<XGblc.11724$IG1.386923@attbi_s04>...
> > > >
> > > In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> > > Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> > > into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> > > same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> > >
> >
> > Not by accepted definitions of torture.
> >
>
> Accepted by whom?

Why, the USA, for one. The UN, apparently, for another. The World Court, or
whatever the hell they call trhemselves, for another. Unless you an show
where they have filed a protest.
>
> Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.
>
YOU HAVE NO POINT.

-*MORT*-

[Simon Robbins]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:pshlc.18882$kh4.1099061@attbi_s52...

> > Jesus Christ!
> Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.

:-) !!!!!!

[Yardpilot]

"You Know Who" > wrote in message
s.com...
> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"You Know Who" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> >> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> >> om...
> >> >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> >> >news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >> >> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> >> >> > ...
> >> >> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"
>
> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
> >can
> >> >get
> >> >> > away
> >> >> > > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
> >condone
> >> >or
> >> >> > > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >> >> > >
> >> >> > > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >> >> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >> >> > > recently went through this.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
> >mind
> >> >> > posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >> >>
> >> >> Jesus Christ!
> >> >
> >> >Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
> >>
> >> What makes you think He was mythical?
> >
> >It's a matter of faith.
>
> Your faith makes you think He's mythical?

Why, sure. If faith causes belief, then surely it can cause disbelief.

[You Know Who]

>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:

>You Know Who wrote:
>>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
>
> [snip]
>
>>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>>>>>>recently went through this.
>>>>>
>>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>>>
>>>>Jesus Christ!
>>>
>>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>>
>> What makes you think He was mythical?
>
> A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
>claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
>Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
>believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
>
> Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
>built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
>a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
>even as Pilate was a historical figure.

We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
existence.

[You Know Who]

>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:

>
>"You Know Who" > wrote in message
s.com...
>> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"You Know Who" > wrote in message
>> s.com...
>> >> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
>> >> om...
>> >> >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>> >> >news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>> >> >> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
>> >> >> > ...
>> >> >> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"
>
>> >> >> > > wrote:
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
>> >can
>> >> >get
>> >> >> > away
>> >> >> > > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
>> >condone
>> >> >or
>> >> >> > > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
>> >> >> > >
>> >> >> > > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>> >> >> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>> >> >> > > recently went through this.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
>> >mind
>> >> >> > posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Jesus Christ!
>> >> >
>> >> >Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>> >>
>> >> What makes you think He was mythical?
>> >
>> >It's a matter of faith.
>>
>> Your faith makes you think He's mythical?
>
>Why, sure. If faith causes belief, then surely it can cause disbelief.

So what is your faith that He never existed based on?

[Ken Smith]

You Know Who wrote:
>>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:
>>You Know Who wrote:
>>>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>>>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>>>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>>>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
>>>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>>>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>>>>>>>recently went through this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>>>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>>>>
>>>>>Jesus Christ!
>>>>
>>>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>>>
>>>What makes you think He was mythical?
>>
>> A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
>>claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
>>Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
>>believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
>>
>> Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
>>built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
>>a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
>>even as Pilate was a historical figure.
>
> We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
> existence.

The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
certainly didn't exist.

[AH#49]

Ken Smith wrote:
>
> You Know Who wrote:
> >>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:
> >>You Know Who wrote:
> >>>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
> >>>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >>>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> >>>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >>>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
> >>>>>
> >> [snip]
> >>
> >>>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >>>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >>>>>>>recently went through this.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
> >>>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Jesus Christ!
> >>>>
> >>>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
> >>>
> >>>What makes you think He was mythical?
> >>
> >> A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
> >>claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
> >>Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
> >>believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
> >>
> >> Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
> >>built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
> >>a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
> >>even as Pilate was a historical figure.
> >
> > We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
> > existence.
>
> The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
> did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
> can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
> certainly didn't exist.

"Almost Certainly"!
Even I've got to giggle at that!

[Ken Smith]

AH#49 wrote:
> Ken Smith wrote:
>>You Know Who wrote:
>>>>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:
>>>>You Know Who wrote:
>>>>>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>>>>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>
>>>> [snip]
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>>>>>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>>>>>>>>>recently went through this.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>>>>>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Jesus Christ!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>>>>>
>>>>>What makes you think He was mythical?
>>>>
>>>> A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
>>>>claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
>>>>Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
>>>>believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
>>>>
>>>> Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
>>>>built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
>>>>a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
>>>>even as Pilate was a historical figure.
>>>
>>>We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
>>>existence.
>>
>> The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
>>did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
>>can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
>>certainly didn't exist.
>
> "Almost Certainly"!
> Even I've got to giggle at that!

Why? Anything is possible, though some things are a lot more
possible than others. :)

[AH#49]

Ken Smith wrote:
>
> AH#49 wrote:
> > Ken Smith wrote:
> >>You Know Who wrote:
> >>>>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:
> >>>>You Know Who wrote:
> >>>>>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
> >>>>>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>> [snip]
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >>>>>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >>>>>>>>>recently went through this.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
> >>>>>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>Jesus Christ!
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>What makes you think He was mythical?
> >>>>
> >>>> A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
> >>>>claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
> >>>>Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
> >>>>believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
> >>>>
> >>>> Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
> >>>>built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
> >>>>a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
> >>>>even as Pilate was a historical figure.
> >>>
> >>>We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
> >>>existence.
> >>
> >> The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
> >>did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
> >>can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
> >>certainly didn't exist.
> >
> > "Almost Certainly"!
> > Even I've got to giggle at that!
>
> Why? Anything is possible, though some things are a lot more
> possible than others. :)

Well, the "legend" most certainly DOES exist, doesn't it?
Otherwise, please explain all those Hundreds of millions that visit
those buildings with Crosses on them every day...'specially on Sunday!

Me?
I have no doubt that a man called Jesus Christ existed way back then.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

You Know Who > wrote in message >...
>> >>
> >> What makes you think He was mythical?
> >
> >It's a matter of faith.
>
> Your faith makes you think He's mythical?

That woudl seem to be as good an argument as one's faith leading
one to believe he was not.

--

FF

[You Know Who]

>In talk.politics.guns (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:

>You Know Who > wrote in message >...
>>> >>
>> >> What makes you think He was mythical?
>> >
>> >It's a matter of faith.
>>
>> Your faith makes you think He's mythical?
>
>That woudl seem to be as good an argument as one's faith leading
>one to believe he was not.

It sure would!

[You Know Who]

>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:

>You Know Who wrote:
>>>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:
>>>You Know Who wrote:
>>>>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>>>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>>>>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>>>>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>>>>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>>>>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>>>>>>>>recently went through this.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>>>>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Jesus Christ!
>>>>>
>>>>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>>>>
>>>>What makes you think He was mythical?
>>>
>>> A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
>>>claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
>>>Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
>>>believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
>>>
>>> Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
>>>built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
>>>a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
>>>even as Pilate was a historical figure.
>>
>> We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
>> existence.
>
> The person, or the legend?

The person.

>Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
>did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
>can't be certain whether he did or not.

LOL

>Jesus the legend almost certainly didn't exist.

I see
>

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<Lvhlc.19681$I%1.1425017@attbi_s51>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
> > >
> > > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > > > doing crap like this.
> > >
> > > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can get
> away
> > > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone or
> > > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >
> > It's not that good.
> >
> > In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> > Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> > into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> > same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
>
> Do feel free to support your claim.
>

Its not my claim. The claim was made by the spokesman at a
routine news conference. I'm still looking for actual transcripts
of new conferences. Dunno if they exist. Meanwhile, you
can go to your library and read some back issues of the Post,
assuming you can pullyourself away from FOX TV long enough.

The Washington Post; Oct 7, 2003;

The Washington Post. Washington, D.C.: Dec 26, 2002.


This online article refers to statments by unnamed US officials:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/2003/usa03072003_2.html

Press reports have attributed statements to US officials
that the US is using "all appropriate pressure," that
"prisoners are sometimes kept on their feet for lengthy
periods," and that "stress and duress" techniques are acceptable.

The techniques reportedly employed - including hooding,
holding in prolonged painful positions, and denial of
food and sleep - were cited and condemned as torture
in the 2002 Department of State Country Reports on Human
Rights Practices. This year's report, mandated to be
released to Congress by February 28, has yet to be released.


Please do feel free to conduct your own research, as any
intellectually
honest person would do. Knowing the truth is far more important than
'winning' an argument on UseNet, don't you agree?

> > That's rotten leadership from the top down.
> >
> > Two POWs in Afghanistan were beaten to death while in US custody.
> > ...
> Do feel free to support your claim.

<http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A42373-2003Mar4&notFound=true>

>
> >
> > The difference between those incidents and the instant case is
> > photographs.
> >
> > If the photographs of My Lai hadn't been published do you really
> > think Calley would ever have been prosecuted?
>
> Yes.

Do feel free to support your claim.

> > Their leaders have let them down by condoning and encouraging
> > incidents such as these.
>
> Nope. Those responsible will be dealt with. BTW, are you aware of who it was
> that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

I doubt it. Keeping in mind that nothing has been proven it has
been reported that the soldiers involved (13 as of last count, right?)
received no training and weren't even given copies of the regulations
for handling prisoners. If so, the officers who are responsible
have no defense.

>BTW, are you aware of who it was
> that set the wheels in motion on this matter?

Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
The wheels were going in circles befor that.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Ken Smith > wrote in message >...
> You Know Who wrote:
> >
> Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
> built..

Probably more than one.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<3U4lc.14010$kh4.813712@attbi_s52>...
> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Pooched" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > >> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
> get
> away
> > >> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
> or
> > >> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> > >>
> > >> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> > >> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> > >> recently went through this.
> > >
> > >I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
> > >posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> > >
> >
> > I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:
> >
> > http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_comments.php?id=1111_0_10_0_C
>
> Doesn't support your claim.
>

That's a damn lie. Quoting from the article:

Yesterday, a Canadian Muslim who was deported to Syria
while traveling through the US broke his silence...
Arar, who spent a year in Syrian custody, recounted
beatings with shredded cables and being kept in a small,
dark cell...

>
> > http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/arar/
>
> Doesn't support your claim.

Another lie. Quoting from the article:

On a stopover in New York as he was returning to
Canada from a vacation in Tunisia in September
2002, U.S. officials detained Arar, claiming he
has links to al-Qaeda, and deported him to Syria,
...
Arar ... said he had been tortured during his incarceration
...

>In fact, it makes Canada look rathe bad.

No one said any different, so I presume you make that statement
soley for the purpose of distraction.

>
> > http://911review.org/Wiki/Arar,Maher.shtml
>
> Doesn't support your claim.

You're three for three:

Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen born in Syria,
traveling on a Canadian passport ... He was detained
by the the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service
during a stopover in New York.
...
At 3 o'clock in the morning, Arar is deported
on a private jet on which he is the sole passenger,
to Syria via Jordan...

You may choose ot disbelieve Arar and the various others who were
quoted or named as sources. But if you choose to say that these
articles do not support the assertion you are lying.

>
> >
> > Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
>
> Then you haven't actually looked.

Allow me:

The Washington Post; Feb 13, 2004; pg. A.26

The Washington Post; Feb 2, 2004; pg. A.17

The Washington Post; Feb 2, 2004; pg. A.16

The Washington Post; Jan 23, 2004; pg. A.17

The Washington Post; Nov 25, 2003

The Washington Post; Nov 20, 2003; pg. A.24

The Washington Post; Nov 19, 2003; pg. A.28

The Washington Post; Nov 12, 2003; pg. A.14

The Washington Post; Nov 5, 2003; pg. A.01


Please feel free to do your own research and report back to us.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Morton Davis" > wrote in message news:<zeqlc.16667$_41.1056281@attbi_s02>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> news:<XGblc.11724$IG1.386923@attbi_s04>...
> > > > >
> > > > In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> > > > Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> > > > into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> > > > same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not by accepted definitions of torture.
> > >
> >
> > Accepted by whom?
>
> Why, the USA, for one.

Wrong, see:

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu2/6/cat/treaties/convention-reserv.htm

Did you do ANY research before making your statement?

> The UN, apparently, for another.

http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm

PART I

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture"
means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether
physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person
for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person
information or a confession, punishing him for an act he
or a third person has committed or is suspected of having
committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person,
or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when
such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation
of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official
or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not
include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or
incidental to lawful sanctions.

Did you do ANY research before making your statement?


> ...
> Unless you an show
> where they have filed a protest.
> >

You haven't shown that any mechanism exists for 'filing a protest'
nor am I under any obligation to accept any arbitrary standard of
proof dictated by yourself. You are free to do your own research.

However:

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/A90408A9D24F7F79C1256D2400270745?opendocument

As far as he could tell, Mr. El Masry said, the
detention regime in Guantanamo violated six or
seven articles of the Convention against Torture.
The Committee had an obligation to address this
problem, Mr. El Masry said, especially since the
second periodic report of the United States to
the Committee was a year and a half overdue.

http://www.salon.com/people/interview/2002/07/26/mary_robinson/

Mary Robinson, the outgoing high commissioner, whose term
ends on the now iconic date of Sept.11. It's common knowledge
that her defense of the Durban Conference against Racism,
which U.S. and Israeli representatives walked out of, her
views on the Israel-Palestine conflict and her condemnation
of the U.S. treatment of prisoners in Camp X-ray at Cuba's
Guantanamo Bay provoked the Bush administration to oppose
the extension of her term.

See also:

<http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/C537C6D4657C7928C1256B43003E7D0B?opendocument>

> > Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.
> >
> YOU HAVE NO POINT.

My point is that our leaders have betrayed us by rejecting truth,
justice and the rule of law and attack the very core of the American
way of life.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Peter H Proctor > wrote in message >...
> On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis" >
> wrote:
>
> >"Fred the Red Shirt"
>
> >> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> >> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> >> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> >> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
>
> >Not by accepted definitions of torture.
>
> Physical torture doesn't give reliable information anyway.
> People will tell you anything to stop the pain.
>
> However, psychological techniques do work very well, though
> slower.

You make a good argument. But can you show evidence to support it?

> Before you throw up your hands in horror, what if you
> reasonably believe that you can save many lives by this process,
> which does no physical harm?
>

If so, you have a criminal attitude.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<LGalc.11890$TD4.1379817@attbi_s01>...
> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > wrote:
> > >> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
> > >
> > >Then you haven't actually looked.
> > >
> >
> > Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.
>
> You're the one that made a false claim, dudley. The information was readily
> available.

Prove it.

--

FF

[Peter H Proctor]

On 3 May 2004 15:25:45 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>Peter H Proctor

>> Physical torture doesn't give reliable information anyway.
>> People will tell you anything to stop the pain.
>>
>> However, psychological techniques do work very well, though
>> slower.
>
>You make a good argument. But can you show evidence to support it?

"General knowledge", admissible in court--- This is what is generally
taught in upper level psych classes.
>
>> Before you throw up your hands in horror, what if you
>> reasonably believe that you can save many lives by this process,
>> which does no physical harm?

>If so, you have a criminal attitude.

What if, e.g., "psychological techniques" could have stopped
the 9/11 attack ? I know what I would have done.

While everybody likes to cite them, international accords
about the treatment of prisoners only cover belligerents in uniform.
With the exception of local militia forces rushing to the defense of
their country, any belligerent not in uniform is a "spy" and can be
legally executed in wartime. Psychological stress is sure a lot
less than this....

PHP

[Peter H Proctor]

http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/convention3.html

Geneva conventions

Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention,
are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have
fallen into the power of the enemy:........

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps,
including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a
Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory,
even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or
volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil
the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person
responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed
distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms
openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the
laws and customs of war.

On 3 May 2004 13:56:22 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>> The UN, apparently, for another.
>
>http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
>
>PART I
>
>Article 1
>
>1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture"
>means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether
>physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person
>for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person
>information or a confession, punishing him for an act he
>or a third person has committed or is suspected of having
>committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person,
>or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when
>such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation
>of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official
>or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not
>include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or
>incidental to lawful sanctions.
>
>Did you do ANY research before making your statement?
>
>
>> ...
>> Unless you an show
>> where they have filed a protest.
>> >
>
>You haven't shown that any mechanism exists for 'filing a protest'
>nor am I under any obligation to accept any arbitrary standard of
>proof dictated by yourself. You are free to do your own research.
>
>However:
>
>http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/A90408A9D24F7F79C1256D2400270745?opendocument
>
> As far as he could tell, Mr. El Masry said, the
> detention regime in Guantanamo violated six or
> seven articles of the Convention against Torture.
> The Committee had an obligation to address this
> problem, Mr. El Masry said, especially since the
> second periodic report of the United States to
> the Committee was a year and a half overdue.
>
>http://www.salon.com/people/interview/2002/07/26/mary_robinson/
>
> Mary Robinson, the outgoing high commissioner, whose term
> ends on the now iconic date of Sept.11. It's common knowledge
> that her defense of the Durban Conference against Racism,
> which U.S. and Israeli representatives walked out of, her
> views on the Israel-Palestine conflict and her condemnation
> of the U.S. treatment of prisoners in Camp X-ray at Cuba's
> Guantanamo Bay provoked the Bush administration to oppose
> the extension of her term.
>
>See also:
>
><http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/C537C6D4657C7928C1256B43003E7D0B?opendocument>
>
>> > Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.
>> >
>> YOU HAVE NO POINT.
>
>My point is that our leaders have betrayed us by rejecting truth,
>justice and the rule of law and attack the very core of the American
>way of life.

[Ken Smith]

AH#49 wrote:
> Ken Smith wrote:
>>AH#49 wrote:
>>>Ken Smith wrote:
>>>>You Know Who wrote:
>>>>>>In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:
>>>>>>You Know Who wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>>>>>>>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
>>>>>>>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
>>>>>>>>>>>recently went through this.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you mind
>>>>>>>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Jesus Christ!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>What makes you think He was mythical?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
>>>>>>claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
>>>>>>Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
>>>>>>believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
>>>>>>built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
>>>>>>a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
>>>>>>even as Pilate was a historical figure.
>>>>>
>>>>>We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
>>>>>existence.
>>>>
>>>> The person, or the legend? Jesus the historical man, if indeed he
>>>>did exist, has disappeared so neatly into the mists of time that we
>>>>can't be certain whether he did or not. Jesus the legend almost
>>>>certainly didn't exist.
>>>
>>>"Almost Certainly"!
>>> Even I've got to giggle at that!
>>
>> Why? Anything is possible, though some things are a lot more
>>possible than others. :)
>
> Well, the "legend" most certainly DOES exist, doesn't it?

The legend remains, even if it were built from der Luft.

> Otherwise, please explain all those Hundreds of millions that visit
> those buildings with Crosses on them every day...'specially on Sunday!
>
> Me?
> I have no doubt that a man called Jesus Christ existed way back then.

I don't seriously doubt that there was a man named Yeshua (a common
Jewish name, translated today as Joshua) whom some called messiah (which
is a rough translation of the Greek), having been called a messiah by a
Jew before. :P

[Fred the Red Shirt]

> On 3 May 2004 13:56:22 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
>
> >> The UN, apparently, for another.
> >
> >http://www.unhchr.ch/html/menu3/b/h_cat39.htm
> >
> >PART I
> >
> >Article 1
> >
> >1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture"
> >means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether
> >physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person
> >for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person
> >information or a confession, punishing him for an act he
> >or a third person has committed or is suspected of having
> >committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person,
> >or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when
> >such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation
> >of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official
> >or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not
> >include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or
> >incidental to lawful sanctions.
> >
> >Did you do ANY research before making your statement?
> >
> >
> >> ...
> >> Unless you an show
> >> where they have filed a protest.
> >> >
> >
> >You haven't shown that any mechanism exists for 'filing a protest'
> >nor am I under any obligation to accept any arbitrary standard of
> >proof dictated by yourself. You are free to do your own research.
> >
> >However:
> >
> >http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/A90408A9D24F7F79C1256D2400270745?opendocument
> >
> > As far as he could tell, Mr. El Masry said, the
> > detention regime in Guantanamo violated six or
> > seven articles of the Convention against Torture.
> > The Committee had an obligation to address this
> > problem, Mr. El Masry said, especially since the
> > second periodic report of the United States to
> > the Committee was a year and a half overdue.
> >
> >http://www.salon.com/people/interview/2002/07/26/mary_robinson/
> >
> > Mary Robinson, the outgoing high commissioner, whose term
> > ends on the now iconic date of Sept.11. It's common knowledge
> > that her defense of the Durban Conference against Racism,
> > which U.S. and Israeli representatives walked out of, her
> > views on the Israel-Palestine conflict and her condemnation
> > of the U.S. treatment of prisoners in Camp X-ray at Cuba's
> > Guantanamo Bay provoked the Bush administration to oppose
> > the extension of her term.
> >
> >See also:
> >
> ><http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/huricane.nsf/view01/C537C6D4657C7928C1256B43003E7D0B?opendocument>
> >
> >> > Aside from which, you seem to be missing the point.
> >> >
> >> YOU HAVE NO POINT.
> >
> >My point is that our leaders have betrayed us by rejecting truth,
> >justice and the rule of law and attack the very core of the American
> >way of life.

Peter H Proctor > addresses a different issue, that
of the status of the detainees ate Guantanamo Bay
>...
> http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/convention3.html
>
> Geneva conventions
>
> Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention,
> are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have
> fallen into the power of the enemy:........
>
> (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps,
> including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a
> Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory,
> even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or
> volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil
> the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person
> responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed
> distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms
> openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the
> laws and customs of war.
>

There are several other categories of POWs but the paragraph you
cite above does seem to be the most relevent to the AL Queda
fighters captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan. It would
appear that they qualify as POWs. The only sitcking point might
be the part about 'having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable
at a distance;' but given that our troops in camos do not, we
had better not push that point too hard.

Regardless, both the Geneva Conventions and the USCMJ require
that a battlefield captive be accorded POW status unless it
is determined the he or she does not, said determination to
be made by a competent court or tribunal. That determinination
must also be made on a case by case basis for each individual.

In any event, and this is a mjor point Mr *MORT* has missed,
torture is wrong.

--

FF

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<LGalc.11890$TD4.1379817@attbi_s01>...
> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > wrote:
> > > >> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
> > > >
> > > >Then you haven't actually looked.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.
> >
> > You're the one that made a false claim, dudley. The information was readily
> > available.
>
> Prove it.

Wrong order, "Fred." The claim was first made that the information was
unavailible. Prove that then I'll take a minute to prove you are wrong and
worse. Grow some balls, "Fred."

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<3U4lc.14010$kh4.813712@attbi_s52>...
> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >"Pooched" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > >> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > >> wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
can
> > get
> > away
> > > >> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone
> > or
> > > >> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> > > >>
> > > >> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> > > >> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> > > >> recently went through this.
> > > >
> > > >I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind
> > > >posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> > > >
> > >
> > > I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:
> > >
> > > http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_comments.php?id=1111_0_10_0_C
> >
> > Doesn't support your claim.
> >
>
> That's a damn lie.

No, "Fred," your fake name is a damn lie. Nothiong you flap on about supports
the claim that "... America has been routinely transferring suspects to other
countries to be tortured." Now, do try to focus on the subject, spinboy.l

[Yardpilot]

"You Know Who" > wrote in message
s.com...
> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
>
> >
> >"You Know Who" > wrote in message
> s.com...
> >> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >"You Know Who" > wrote in message
> >> s.com...
> >> >> >In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> >> >> om...
> >> >> >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> >> >> >news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >> >> >> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> >> >> >> > ...
> >> >> >> > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"
> >
> >> >> >> > > wrote:
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think
they
> >> >can
> >> >> >get
> >> >> >> > away
> >> >> >> > > >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
> >> >condone
> >> >> >or
> >> >> >> > > >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> >> >> >> > >
> >> >> >> > > Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >> >> >> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >> >> >> > > recently went through this.
> >> >> >> >
> >> >> >> > I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would
you
> >> >mind
> >> >> >> > posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Jesus Christ!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
> >> >>
> >> >> What makes you think He was mythical?
> >> >
> >> >It's a matter of faith.
> >>
> >> Your faith makes you think He's mythical?
> >
> >Why, sure. If faith causes belief, then surely it can cause disbelief.
>
> So what is your faith that He never existed based on?

Faith. Perhaps you are missing something. If you choose to believe, then sooner
or later it comes down to faith. What's the difference? It would be more
incumbent on you to prove existence than on me to prove nonexistence. I don't
believe phlogiston exists, but I see no need to prove it doesn't. Provided proof
it did, I might choose to accept such a fact.

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
m...
> You Know Who > wrote in message
>...
> >> >>
> > >> What makes you think He was mythical?
> > >
> > >It's a matter of faith.
> >
> > Your faith makes you think He's mythical?
>
> That woudl seem to be as good an argument as one's faith leading
> one to believe he was not.

Careful "Fred." Agreeing with me will hurt your feelings.

[Yardpilot]

"You Know Who" > wrote in message
s.com...
> >In talk.politics.guns (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
>
> >You Know Who > wrote in message
>...
> >>> >>
> >> >> What makes you think He was mythical?
> >> >
> >> >It's a matter of faith.
> >>
> >> Your faith makes you think He's mythical?
> >
> >That woudl seem to be as good an argument as one's faith leading
> >one to believe he was not.
>
> It sure would!

Yup.

[Yardpilot]

"You Know Who" > wrote in message
s.com...
> >In talk.politics.guns Ken Smith > wrote:
>
> >You Know Who wrote:
> >>>In talk.politics.guns "Yardpilot" > wrote:
> >>>"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> >>>>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> >>>>news:<zCIkc.6606$kh4.445558@attbi_s52>...
> >>>>>"Pooched" > wrote in message
> >
> > [snip]
> >
> >>>>>>Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> >>>>>>suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> >>>>>>recently went through this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind
> >>>>>posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> >>>>
> >>>>Jesus Christ!
> >>>
> >>>Invoking mythical invisible friends won't help you.
> >>
> >> What makes you think He was mythical?
> >
> > A lack of evidence to support the Christians' most basic truth
> >claims. While no one actually disputes the erstwhile existence of ElRon
> >Hubbard, virtually no one outside the $cientology cult seriously
> >believes that he lived up to their collective biography of him.
> >
> > Same with Jesus. There probably *was* a man upon whom the legend was
> >built, but there is no credible evidence that he was a messiah, or even
> >a reasonable facsimile of same. Therefore, "Jesus Christ" is a myth --
> >even as Pilate was a historical figure.
>
> We're not discussing if He was the Messiah, we're discussing his
> existence.

We are discussing both, actually. Your use of "He" as opposed to "he" rather
points that up. So does the name "Jesus Christ," BTW, as opposed to Jesus of
Nazereth or simply Jesus. There is the question of the physical existence of the
person, as well as the mythos surrounding said person. Have a little faith <G>.

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...

> >BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
>
> Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> The wheels were going in circles befor that.

No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a report from a
soldier.

[Peter H Proctor]

On 4 May 2004 08:59:06 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>Peter H Proctor > addresses a different issue, that
>of the status of the detainees ate Guantanamo Bay
>...
>> http://www.globalissuesgroup.com/geneva/convention3.html
>>
>> Geneva conventions
>>
>> Art. 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention,
>> are persons belonging to one of the following categories, who have
>> fallen into the power of the enemy:........
>>
>> (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps,
>> including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a
>> Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory,
>> even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or
>> volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil
>> the following conditions:[ (a) that of being commanded by a person
>> responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed
>> distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms
>> openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the
>> laws and customs of war.
>>
>
>There are several other categories of POWs but the paragraph you
>cite above does seem to be the most relevent to the AL Queda
>fighters captured on the battlefield in Afghanistan.

No. It directly applies to "insurgents" Sic: "including those of
organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict
and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this
territory is occupied,....."

It would
>appear that they qualify as POWs. The only sitcking point might
>be the part about 'having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable
>at a distance;' but given that our troops in camos do not, we
>had better not push that point too hard.

A unifomed soldier in a formal military unit qualifies
automatically under section 1. Section 2 gives irregular forces POW
status, but only if they are identifiable as combatants.

>In any event, and this is a major point Mr *MORT* has missed,
>torture is wrong.

True, torture may be wrong, but unless the combatants qualify
as POW's, the Geneva conventions don't hold for them, although other
international conventions may. Thus, e.g., you can still shoot
spies. And yes, prisoners are supposed to get some sort of hearing
to determine their POW status.

PHP

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Peter H Proctor > wrote in message >...
> On 3 May 2004 15:25:45 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
>
>> While everybody likes to cite them, international accords
> about the treatment of prisoners only cover belligerents in uniform.

There are two relevent 'Geneva Conventions'. for the treatment of
prisoners. One is for captured beligerants, the other for captured
civiilans. The conventions require that all prisoners be accorded
the protections of one or the other unless a competent court or
tribubal makes a determination to the contrary.

> With the exception of local militia forces rushing to the defense of
> their country, any belligerent not in uniform is a "spy" and can be
> legally executed in wartime. Psychological stress is sure a lot
> less than this..
>

Certain actions, such as torture and summary execution are crimes
without regard to the choice of victim.

No decent person denies this.

Summry execution of suspected spies has been outlawed since at
least the 1907 Hague Conventions, which you can find online.

So much for your general knowledge.

--

FF

[torresD]

Rape Rooms, Torture Rooms are under new management.

[Asmodeus]

"torresD" > wrote in news:bSSlc.7143$V97.4572
@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net:

> Rape Rooms, Torture Rooms are under new management

Your management, no doubt--listening to Air AmeriKKKa would fall
under the torture category, certainly.

--
"It's obvious to me that this country is rapidly dividing itself into
two camps - the wimps and the warriors. The ones who want to argue
and assess and appease, and the ones who want to carry this fight to
our enemies and kill them before they kill us."
--The Hon. Zell Miller

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Peter H Proctor > wrote in message >...
> >
> True, torture may be wrong, but unless the combatants qualify
> as POW's, the Geneva conventions don't hold for them, although other
> international conventions may. Thus, e.g., you can still shoot
> spies.

Since torture is wrong, it doesn't matter if the Geneva Conventions
for POWs or civilians apply or not. Consider the Nurenberg trials--
criminals were executed for crimes which violated no statute
or treaty. Rightly so, IMHO, they were tried and executed under
common law.

I also support the doctrine of command responsibility. While there
are, as of yet, only rumors that the abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan
were ordered, there are accusations that the responsible officers
took no action to prevent the abuses, which leaves those officers
without a defense. Further, the public sentiments toward prisoners
expressed by Secretary Rumsfeld, clearly fostered the abuses that
have been publicised during the last two years.

Our leaders have failed to provide proper leadership. They are
rotten. They share the blame.

Summary execution of suspected spies has been explicitley outlawed
since at least the 1907 Hague conventions. It is also a violation
of the UCMJ--see 'murder'. Please don't make things up, or rely
on bad movie scripts for your information.

However, it would appear that convicted murderers are not punished,
they are rewarded with a free ticket home:

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5038963

Army officials said the military had investigated the deaths
of 25 prisoners held by American forces in Iraq and Afghanistan
and determined that an Army soldier and a CIA contractor murdered
two prisoners. Most of the deaths occurred in Iraq.

An official said a soldier was convicted in the U.S. military
justice system of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock,
and was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service
but did not serve any jail time.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a private
contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed
the other homicide against a prisoner. [No information was
provided on the contractor's dispositon, perhaps he was reassigned
to Guantanamo Bay.]

I might be inclined to suppose that the soldier might not have
intended to kill the prisoner, but for now accept the use of
'murder' by Reuters.

Please note also that these were kept secret until now.

>
> And yes, prisoners are supposed to get some sort of hearing
> to determine their POW status.
>

More than 'some sort'. The word 'competent', a legal term of
art, is used. Tribunals established by Presidential decree
would fail the competency test since the US Constitution
empowers the Congress to establish courts not the President
and past USSC cases have held that the Congress cannot delegate
authority to the President, when that authority is original
to the Congress in the Constitution.

--

FF

[Peter H Proctor]

On 4 May 2004 14:39:30 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>Peter H Proctor > wrote in message >...
>> >
>> True, torture may be wrong, but unless the combatants qualify
>> as POW's, the Geneva conventions don't hold for them, although other
>> international conventions may. Thus, e.g., you can still shoot
>> spies.
>
>Since torture is wrong, it doesn't matter if the Geneva Conventions
>for POWs or civilians apply or not.

It does cound if you are citing the Geneva Conventions, since these
are only applicable to real POWs.

> Consider the Nurenberg trials--
>criminals were executed for crimes which violated no statute
>or treaty. Rightly so, IMHO, they were tried and executed under
>common law.

Quibble, common law never included the ancient sport of
"waging offensive warfare". True, the Nazis pretty much deserved
what they got.

However, the prosecution of Japanes generals generated some
scary precedents. For example, following the precident set by the
prosecution of General Yama****a, an area commander is responsible
for any abuses committed by the troops in his area, even if they are
not under his control and even if he has proved his reluctance to
commit atrocities.

>I also support the doctrine of command responsibility. While there
>are, as of yet, only rumors that the abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan
>were ordered, there are accusations that the responsible officers
>took no action to prevent the abuses, which leaves those officers
>without a defense. Further, the public sentiments toward prisoners
>expressed by Secretary Rumsfeld, clearly fostered the abuses that
>have been publicised during the last two years.

Google "Yama****a" and "Manila". Set a scary precident.

>Summary execution of suspected spies has been explicitley outlawed
>since at least the 1907 Hague conventions.

Not true. E.g., some German sabateurs were executed in WW2. If
you mean, you have to try them in a military court before execution,
this is correct.

>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5038963

>I might be inclined to suppose that the soldier might not have
>intended to kill the prisoner, but for now accept the use of
>'murder' by Reuters.

Depends of the circumstances. E.g., supposed prisoners in Afganistan
revolted and killed severl US soldiers.

>> And yes, prisoners are supposed to get some sort of hearing
>> to determine their POW status.

>More than 'some sort'. The word 'competent', a legal term of
>art, is used. Tribunals established by Presidential decree
>would fail the competency test since the US Constitution
>empowers the Congress to establish courts not the President
>and past USSC cases have held that the Congress cannot delegate
>authority to the President, when that authority is original
>to the Congress in the Constitution.

Actually, it can be a military tribunal.

PHP

[Peter H Proctor]

On 4 May 2004 12:54:45 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>Peter H Proctor

>> With the exception of local militia forces rushing to the defense of
>> their country, any belligerent not in uniform is a "spy" and can be
>> legally executed in wartime. Psychological stress is sure a lot
>> less than this..

>Certain actions, such as torture and summary execution are crimes
>without regard to the choice of victim.

Arguable. But what if "psychological stress" can save innocent
lives ?
>
>No decent person denies this.

Say (e.g) you could have prevented 9/11 by using "psychological
methods" . I know what I woudl have done....
>
>Summry execution of suspected spies has been outlawed since at
>least the 1907 Hague Conventions, which you can find online.

The US and the UK were executing "spies" in WW2. Don't recall any
recent cases, but as far as I know, the provision is still there.
BTW, early conventions only appled to "civilized combatants", i.e,
Europeans and maybe the Japanese. "Savage tribes" were free game.

PHP

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
>
> > >BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> >
> > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
>
> No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a report from a
> soldier.

Free free to prove your assertion.

In particular, feel free to show us how many were charged before
the photos were released. Direct us the news conference in which
the DOD informed us of the incidents before the story broke in
the media.

Show us how the guard convicted earlier this year of murdering an
Iraqi prisoner was punished. Direct us to the DOD news release
about that trial.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

I'm removing this from talk.politics.guns becuase it never should have
been crossposted there in the first place.

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<UjPlc.21527$TD4.3087722@attbi_s01>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<LGalc.11890$TD4.1379817@attbi_s01>...
> > > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > > wrote:
> > > > >> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
> > > > >
> > > > >Then you haven't actually looked.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.
> > >
> > > You're the one that made a false claim, dudley. The information was readily
> > > available.
> >
> > Prove it.
>
> Wrong order, "Fred." The claim was first made that the information was
> unavailible. Prove that then I'll take a minute to prove you are wrong and
> worse. Grow some balls, "Fred."

I see you are a student of the GWB school of logic which maintains
that one can prove a negative.

YOU asserted that the information was readily available.

All I ask is that you prove the information was readily available.

Then I'l be happy to review it.

Got the balls to try?

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<RlPlc.31388$Ik.1945229@attbi_s53>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<3U4lc.14010$kh4.813712@attbi_s52>...
> > > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >"Pooched" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > >> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > > >> wrote:
> > > > >>
> > > > >> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
> can
> > > get
> > > away
> > > > >> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
> condone
> or
> > > > >> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> > > > >> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> > > > >> recently went through this.
> > > > >
> > > > >I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
> mind
> > > > >posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_comments.php?id=1111_0_10_0_C
> > >
> > > Doesn't support your claim.
> > >
> >
> > That's a damn lie.
>
> No, "Fred," your fake name is a damn lie. Nothiong you flap on about supports
> the claim that "... America has been routinely transferring suspects to other
> countries to be tortured." Now, do try to focus on the subject, spinboy.l


I believe when you wrote:
" I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
mind posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?"
you were refering to "A Canadian Muslim recently went through this."
which was amply proven by the sources provided.

You really don't read newspapers, do you?

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<jwhlc.18904$kh4.1100203@attbi_s52>...
> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
> > >> >
> > >> > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > >> > > doing crap like this.
> > >> >
> > >> > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they can
> get away
> > >> > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not condone
> or
> > >> > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> > >>
> > >> It's not not good.
> > >>
> > >> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> > >> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> > >> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> > >> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> > >>
> > >
> > >Not by accepted definitions of torture.
> > >
> >
> > How Republican of you to point that out. Lets see you stand in the
> > same 1 foot circle for 48 hours. Lets see you not be allowed to sleep
> > for 4 days.
>
> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.

Perhaps he can refer you here:

<http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

talk.politics.guns removed from distribution as this thread should
never have been crossposted there in the first place.

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<yEIkc.6651$Ik.592666@attbi_s53>...
> "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> news:KACkc.1001$Ia6.92253@attbi_s03...
> >
> > >
> > Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
> > happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the burned
> > bodies of our dead from bridges? There are none because we are not cheering.
>
> If something like this happens, we crack down on the perpetrators. Few if any
> people celebrate such things. It seems we worry more about people in other
> countries than we do our own when it comes to abuse of authority.

Feel free to prove your assertion.

Here's proof of how the Bush Administration cracked down BEFOR photos
were published:

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=518258

In Washington, an army official revealed that one US soldier
was convicted of murder for shooting a prisoner to death in
September 2003 at a detention centre in Iraq, and that another
prisoner was killed at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad
two months later by a private contractor working for the CIA.

The soldier - convicted by court martial - was thrown out
of the service but did not serve time in jail. The official
said that the soldier shot the prisoner after he had thrown
stones at him. The serviceman was found to have used excessive
force. No action was taken against the CIA contractor because
the military had no legal jurisdiction.

OTOH, Reuters reported that the soldier was convicted of murder for
killing the prisoner with a stone. It seems we need the text of the
actua DOD news release.

Would you care to post it for us?

--

FF

[Yardpilot]

"torresD" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Rape Rooms, Torture Rooms are under new management.

Snail **** is more intelligent than you.

[Pooched]

On 4 May 2004 18:01:08 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>I'm removing this from talk.politics.guns becuase it never should have
>been crossposted there in the first place.
>
>"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<UjPlc.21527$TD4.3087722@attbi_s01>...
>> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
>> om...
>> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
>> news:<LGalc.11890$TD4.1379817@attbi_s01>...
>> > > "Pooched" > wrote in message
>> > > ...
>> > > > On Sun, 02 May 2004 11:24:47 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
>> > > > wrote:
>> > > > >> Interestingly I can't find anything from Amerikan sources.
>> > > > >
>> > > > >Then you haven't actually looked.
>> > > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Keep your head in the sand. It's safer.
>> > >
>> > > You're the one that made a false claim, dudley. The information was readily
>> > > available.
>> >
>> > Prove it.
>>
>> Wrong order, "Fred." The claim was first made that the information was
>> unavailible. Prove that then I'll take a minute to prove you are wrong and
>> worse. Grow some balls, "Fred."
>
>I see you are a student of the GWB school of logic which maintains
>that one can prove a negative.
>
>YOU asserted that the information was readily available.
>
>All I ask is that you prove the information was readily available.
>
>Then I'l be happy to review it.
>
>Got the balls to try?

<sarcasm>

DAMNIT, don't ruffle dubya's feathers!

He is da messiah!

<sarcasm/>

[Pooched]

On 4 May 2004 18:07:12 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
>> No, "Fred," your fake name is a damn lie. Nothiong you flap on about supports
>> the claim that "... America has been routinely transferring suspects to other
>> countries to be tortured." Now, do try to focus on the subject, spinboy.l
>
>
>I believe when you wrote:
>" I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
> mind posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?"
>you were refering to "A Canadian Muslim recently went through this."
>which was amply proven by the sources provided.
>
>You really don't read newspapers, do you?

Listening to this discussion reminds me of this quote from slashdot:

"The Internet has taught us that privileging certain views is
absolutely crucial to avoid drowning in the ravings of idiots."

Fred, do you find it amazing that in arguing on the usenet that the
ravings of idiots prevails? I miss the old days when you had to know
what you were doing to get on the net AND to post to the usenet.

[Pooched]

On Mon, 03 May 2004 01:43:36 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
wrote:
>> SHHHH! You'll ruin Dubya's chances of getting reelected if you force
>> his priests to see the world as it really is!
>
>So, you can't support your claim. No surprise there.
>

You seem to be hung up Tourette's style with "You can't support your
claim. Prove it."

Trying to prove that 2+2=4 to children would be easier than trying to
prove it to you.

[Pooched]

On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
>> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
>
>Perhaps he can refer you here:
>
><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>

This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
naked, and other tortures are tortures.

No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
=)

[Morton Davis]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
> >> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
> >
> >Perhaps he can refer you here:
> >
>
><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>
>
> This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
> sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
> naked, and other tortures are tortures.
>
> No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
> =)

Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up, naked,
by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your daughters
gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into a
chipper/shredder?

-*MORT*-

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Morton Davis" > wrote in message news:<RjZlc.25552$_41.1880491@attbi_s02>...
> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
> > Shirt) wrote:
> > >> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
> > >
> > >Perhaps he can refer you here:
> > >
> >
> ><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
> oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>
> >
> > This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
> > sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
> > naked, and other tortures are tortures.
> >
> > No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
> > =)
>
> Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up, naked,
> by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your daughters
> gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
> murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into a
> chipper/shredder?
>

I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.

Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.

You can be with us, or against us.

The choice is yours.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Peter H Proctor > wrote in message >...
> On 4 May 2004 14:39:30 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
>
> >Peter H Proctor > wrote in message >...
> >> >
> >> True, torture may be wrong, but unless the combatants qualify
> >> as POW's, the Geneva conventions don't hold for them, although other
> >> international conventions may. Thus, e.g., you can still shoot
> >> spies.
> >
> >Since torture is wrong, it doesn't matter if the Geneva Conventions
> >for POWs or civilians apply or not.
>
> It does cound if you are citing the Geneva Conventions, since these
> are only applicable to real POWs.

If you wil review the thread and folow the link I provided you will
find that I was citing the:

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman
or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

In response to the incorrect statement regarding accepted standards
of torture.

As you will recall, you introduced the Geneva Convention on POWs
into the discussion. It was entirely appropriate for you to do so,
I'd just rather you accpe tthe credit you deserve.


>
> > Consider the Nurenberg trials--
> >criminals were executed for crimes which violated no statute
> >or treaty. Rightly so, IMHO, they were tried and executed under
> >common law.
>
> Quibble, common law never included the ancient sport of
> "waging offensive warfare". True, the Nazis pretty much deserved
> what they got.

I'm not certain that anyone at Nurenberg was tried for simply waging
war. I was thinking of trials for murdering fellow citizens.

>
> However, the prosecution of Japanes generals generated some
> scary precedents. For example, following the precident set by the
> prosecution of General Yama****a, an area commander is responsible
> for any abuses committed by the troops in his area, even if they are
> not under his control and even if he has proved his reluctance to
> commit atrocities.

Yes. That is the doctrine of command responsibility. Mere ignorance
of those crimes is not a defense. In Yama****a's case it was proven
that capital crimes were openly commotted within 200 yards of his
office showing that even if he was ignorant of those crimes, his
ignorance was willful at best. ALthough, unlike Remsfeld and Bush,
Yama****o did prove that he gave orders intended to prevent those
crimes it is also clear that he did not enforce those orders in
any effective way.

>
> >I also support the doctrine of command responsibility. While there
> >are, as of yet, only rumors that the abuses in Iraq and Afghanistan
> >were ordered, there are accusations that the responsible officers
> >took no action to prevent the abuses, which leaves those officers
> >without a defense. Further, the public sentiments toward prisoners
> >expressed by Secretary Rumsfeld, clearly fostered the abuses that
> >have been publicised during the last two years.
>
> Google "Yama****a" and "Manila". Set a scary precident.

Not when you consider the factual evidence against Yama****a. His
defense was a sham. Note also that his conviction was uphelp
upon appeal to a Federal Court, demonstrating that trials conducted
outside of the US ARE subject to judicial review within the US.

>
> >Summary execution of suspected spies has been explicitley outlawed
> >since at least the 1907 Hague conventions.
>
> Not true. E.g., some German sabateurs were executed in WW2.

Yes it is true. See the 1907 Hague Conventions. THey are online.

> If
> you mean, you have to try them in a military court before execution,
> this is correct.

Of course. Please recall your earlier statement
"the Geneva conventions don't hold for them, [persons who do not
qualify as POWs] although other international conventions may.
Thus, e.g., you can still shoot spies.

I inferred that you meant summary execution. But to be clear,
suspected spies and sabotuers ARE protected under the 1949
Geneva Conventions, unti after conviction by a cometent court
or tribunal. either way the statement was factually incorrect,
though a very common misconception.

>
> >http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5038963
>
> >I might be inclined to suppose that the soldier might not have
> >intended to kill the prisoner, but for now accept the use of
> >'murder' by Reuters.
>
> Depends of the circumstances. E.g., supposed prisoners in Afganistan
> revolted and killed severl US soldiers.

Not the instant case. But we need to read a transcript of the
actual news release. I've asked Mr Yardpilot to help us
out there.

>
> >> And yes, prisoners are supposed to get some sort of hearing
> >> to determine their POW status.
>
> >More than 'some sort'. The word 'competent', a legal term of
> >art, is used. Tribunals established by Presidential decree
> >would fail the competency test since the US Constitution
> >empowers the Congress to establish courts not the President
> >and past USSC cases have held that the Congress cannot delegate
> >authority to the President, when that authority is original
> >to the Congress in the Constitution.
>
> Actually, it can be a military tribunal.
>

Yes, but it must be 'competent' a legal term of art that implies, a
at the very least, that it is legal according to the laws of the
detaining Power. Bush's proposed tribunals are, at best,
Constitutionally questionable.

--

FF

[Morton Davis]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
m...
> "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
news:<RjZlc.25552$_41.1880491@attbi_s02>...
> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
> > > Shirt) wrote:
> > > >> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
> > > >
> > > >Perhaps he can refer you here:
> > > >
> > >
> >
><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
> > oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>
> > >
> > > This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
> > > sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
> > > naked, and other tortures are tortures.
> > >
> > > No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
> > > =)
> >
> > Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up,
naked,
> > by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your
daughters
> > gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
> > murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into
a
> > chipper/shredder?
> >
>
> I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
> Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
> by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.
>
> Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.
>

I didn't deny torture is wrong, ****wit, I was reminding you of what REAL
torture is about for the ****wits who are jumping up and down, screaming
that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.

-*MORT*-

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<RlPlc.31388$Ik.1945229@attbi_s53>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> > news:<3U4lc.14010$kh4.813712@attbi_s52>...
> > > > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > > > ...
> > > > > On Sat, 01 May 2004 07:47:43 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >"Pooched" > wrote in message
> > > > > ...
> > > > > >> On Sat, 01 May 2004 00:14:56 GMT, "Yardpilot"
>
> > > > > >> wrote:
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> >Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think
they
> > can
> > > > get
> > > > away
> > > > > >> >with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
> > condone
> > or
> > > > > >> >support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> > > > > >>
> > > > > >> Correction needed.... America has been routinely transferring
> > > > > >> suspects to other countries to be tortured. A Canadian Muslim
> > > > > >> recently went through this.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
> > mind
> > > > > >posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > I figured ppl would already know. Here's some links:
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.altmuslim.com/politics_comments.php?id=1111_0_10_0_C
> > > >
> > > > Doesn't support your claim.
> > > >
> > >
> > > That's a damn lie.
> >
> > No, "Fred," your fake name is a damn lie. Nothiong you flap on about
supports
> > the claim that "... America has been routinely transferring suspects to
other
> > countries to be tortured." Now, do try to focus on the subject, spinboy.l
>
>
> I believe when you wrote:
> " I somehow missed your reference, link, or citation on this. Would you
> mind posting it again? You DID post one, didn't you?"
> you were refering to "A Canadian Muslim recently went through this."
> which was amply proven by the sources provided.
>
> You really don't read newspapers, do you?

Spin away, "Fred." The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
claim, and you know it.

[Yardpilot]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 03 May 2004 01:43:36 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> wrote:
> >> SHHHH! You'll ruin Dubya's chances of getting reelected if you force
> >> his priests to see the world as it really is!
> >
> >So, you can't support your claim. No surprise there.
> >
>
> You seem to be hung up

You seem to be unable to support claims made.

[Yardpilot]

"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
> On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
> >> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
> >
> >Perhaps he can refer you here:
> >
>
><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=U
TF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>
>
> This guy has Bush tinted glasses on.

Gee, another stupid punk drops in making ridiculous, baseless comments just to
get responses. You need to get out of the house once in awhile, moron.l

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<jwhlc.18904$kh4.1100203@attbi_s52>...
> > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > On Sun, 02 May 2004 19:08:39 GMT, "Morton Davis" >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >
> > > >"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > >> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> > news:<3_Bkc.1303$_41.52280@attbi_s02>...
> > > >> >
> > > >> > > Compare this to some "regimes" that would give the perps medals for
> > > >> > > doing crap like this.
> > > >> >
> > > >> > Yes indeed. There are always going to be some people who think they
can
> > get away
> > > >> > with such nonsense. Unlike many other countries, the US does not
condone
> > or
> > > >> > support such actions, and punishes the people involved.
> > > >>
> > > >> It's not not good.
> > > >>
> > > >> In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> > > >> Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> > > >> into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> > > >> same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >Not by accepted definitions of torture.
> > > >
> > >
> > > How Republican of you to point that out. Lets see you stand in the
> > > same 1 foot circle for 48 hours. Lets see you not be allowed to sleep
> > > for 4 days.
> >
> > Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
>
> Perhaps he can refer you here:

Perhaps he can support huis claim instead, "fred."

[Yardpilot]

"Morton Davis" > wrote in message
news:7%3mc.26860$IG1.1141540@attbi_s04...
>
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> news:<RjZlc.25552$_41.1880491@attbi_s02>...
> > > "Pooched" > wrote in message
> > > ...
> > > > On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
> > > > Shirt) wrote:
> > > > >> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
> > > > >
> > > > >Perhaps he can refer you here:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> ><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
> > > oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>
> > > >
> > > > This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
> > > > sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
> > > > naked, and other tortures are tortures.
> > > >
> > > > No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
> > > > =)
> > >
> > > Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up,
> naked,
> > > by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your
> daughters
> > > gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
> > > murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into
> a
> > > chipper/shredder?
> > >
> >
> > I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
> > Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
> > by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.
> >
> > Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.
> >
>
> I didn't deny torture is wrong, ****wit, I was reminding you of what REAL
> torture is about for the ****wits who are jumping up and down, screaming
> that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.

The fact that Saddam condoned and ordered such things while the US punishes
those caught doing much less escapes them.

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
m...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >
> > > >BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > > > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> > >
> > > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> > > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
> >
> > No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a report
from a
> > soldier.
>
> Free free to prove your assertion.

This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers. Look up the
name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." He set the ball rolling on this.

[Peter H Proctor]

On 5 May 2004 03:29:10 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>Yes. That is the doctrine of command responsibility. Mere ignorance
>of those crimes is not a defense. In Yama****a's case it was proven
>that capital crimes were openly commotted within 200 yards of his
>office showing that even if he was ignorant of those crimes, his
>ignorance was willful at best. ALthough, unlike Remsfeld and Bush,
>Yama****o did prove that he gave orders intended to prevent those
>crimes it is also clear that he did not enforce those orders in
>any effective way.

Yama****a could not enforce his orders. They were
countermanded by "high officials" ( i.e., people around the emperor
and likely even the emperor himself ) who had their own chains of
command separate from his.

As numerous historians have pointed out, no middle class
Japanese general is likely to win in such a situation. When
Yama****a could control the situation, he tried to limit atrocities.
E.g., IIRC he released 3K allied prisoners in his retreat, though
ordered to kill them all.

>Not when you consider the factual evidence against Yama****a. His
>defense was a sham. Note also that his conviction was uphelp
>upon appeal to a Federal Court, demonstrating that trials conducted
>outside of the US ARE subject to judicial review within the US.

With their own consent, Yama****a and other Japanese generals
were offered up as sacrifices by both the US and Japanese governments.
This was primarily to avoid looking too much into the real origins of
Japanese atrocities in a small group of plotters around the emperor
himself. This would have interfered with the occupation. To
this day, the Japanese view them as such sacrificial lambs, who
sacrificed their lives for Japan as much as any other soldier.

When it became clear that the war was lost, the Japanese had
prepared for this with an intricate plot involving such things as the
Kido diaries ( a major piece of evidence at the trials ) to deflect
responsibility.

The Australians ( whose soldiers had particularly suffered )
threatened to upset the scheme by calling for the trial of the emperor
himself. They were quickly brought into line. Interesting book
on all of this called "Japan's Imperial Conspiracy". The title
belies the book, BTW.

>> Not true. E.g., some German sabateurs were executed in WW2.
>
>Yes it is true. See the 1907 Hague Conventions. THey are online.

International conventions are basically treaties which
countries sign on to. They are only enforceable in wartime by
common consent, E.g. "We won't torture your soldiers if you don't
torture ours." A country may announce it is will to abide by such
conventions, even if they don't sign them. In fact, the US did this
for long periods and may still do so, IIRC.

PHP

[Curtis CCR]

(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message >...
> talk.politics.guns removed from distribution as this thread should
> never have been crossposted there in the first place.
>
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<yEIkc.6651$Ik.592666@attbi_s53>...
> > "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> > news:KACkc.1001$Ia6.92253@attbi_s03...
> > >
> > > >
> > > Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
> > > happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the burned
> > > bodies of our dead from bridges? There are none because we are not cheering.
> >
> > If something like this happens, we crack down on the perpetrators. Few if any
> > people celebrate such things. It seems we worry more about people in other
> > countries than we do our own when it comes to abuse of authority.
>
> Feel free to prove your assertion.
>
> Here's proof of how the Bush Administration cracked down BEFOR photos
> were published:
>
> http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=518258
>
> In Washington, an army official revealed that one US soldier
> was convicted of murder for shooting a prisoner to death in
> September 2003 at a detention centre in Iraq, and that another
> prisoner was killed at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad
> two months later by a private contractor working for the CIA.
>
> The soldier - convicted by court martial - was thrown out
> of the service but did not serve time in jail. The official
> said that the soldier shot the prisoner after he had thrown
> stones at him. The serviceman was found to have used excessive
> force. No action was taken against the CIA contractor because
> the military had no legal jurisdiction.
>
> OTOH, Reuters reported that the soldier was convicted of murder for
> killing the prisoner with a stone. It seems we need the text of the
> actua DOD news release.
>
> Would you care to post it for us?

Is there a DOD news release? I don't believe everything that is
written in a newspaper to be "proof" of anything. A court martial
convicted someone of MURDER without serving time? I'd like to see
what Reuters is calling a murder conviction. Using excessive force
under certain circumstances would be unlawful, but that would not
always equate to "murder" in the legal sense. This guy may have been
convicted for a crime that caused a death, i.e. manslaulter,
negligence, etc. But I'd bet it was inaccurate to express or imply a
conviction for the crime of "murder" resulted in a discharge only.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<io5mc.27189$IG1.1154544@attbi_s04>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54>...
> > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > >
> > > > >BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > > > > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> > > >
> > > > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> > > > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
> > >
> > > No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a report
> from a
> > > soldier.
> >
> > Free free to prove your assertion.
>
> This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers. Look up the
> name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." [A fellow Marylander, FF] He set the ball > rolling on this.

Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Peter H Proctor > wrote in message >...
> On 4 May 2004 12:54:45 -0700, (Fred the Red
> Shirt) wrote:
>
> >Peter H Proctor
>
> >> With the exception of local militia forces rushing to the defense of
> >> their country, any belligerent not in uniform is a "spy" and can be
> >> legally executed in wartime. Psychological stress is sure a lot
> >> less than this..
>
> >Certain actions, such as torture and summary execution are crimes
> >without regard to the choice of victim.
>
> Arguable. But what if "psychological stress" can save innocent
> lives ?
> >
> >No decent person denies this.
>
> Say (e.g) you could have prevented 9/11 by using "psychological
> methods" . I know what I woudl have done....

Since it's a hypothetical, more on that later if I find the time.

> >
> >Summary execution of suspected spies has been outlawed since at
^^^^^^^
> >least the 1907 Hague Conventions, which you can find online.
>
> The US and the UK were executing "spies" in WW2. Don't recall any
> recent cases, but as far as I know, the provision is still there.
> BTW, early conventions only appled to "civilized combatants", i.e,
> Europeans and maybe the Japanese. "Savage tribes" were free game.
>

Evidently you are unclear on the concept of summary execution.
'Summary execution' is execution without appropriate prior legal
process. Again, you can find the relevent prohibition in the
1907 Hague conventions online, why didn't you look?

Execution of spies, sabotuers, POWs and civilians are all allowed
under the Geneva conventions. But only after conviction by a
competent court or tribunal. That last is the part you were
neglected to consider. None of the detainees at Guantanamo
have been tried at all, therefore there is no basis within the
context of the 1949 Conventions to deny them POW status.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

talk.politics.guns removed form the distribution list per nettiquette.

"Morton Davis" > wrote in message news:<7%3mc.26860$IG1.1141540@attbi_s04>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> m...
> > >
> > I trust that all reasonable people will reject your suggestion that
> > Saddam Hussein and the former Iraqi regime established a metric
> > by which acceptable standards of behaviour can be gauged.
> >
> > Further, we will not deny that torture is wrong.
> >
>
> I didn't deny torture is wrong,

I'm pleased that you have come around to our way of thinking.

> ****wit, I was reminding you of what REAL
> torture is about for the ****wits who are jumping up and down, screaming
> that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.
>

I haven't observed any people 'jumping up and down, screaming
that THIS is worse than what happened under Saddam.'

Please show them to us.

How sad it is that the best defense you can put forward is that
our President is not as bad as Saddam Hussein.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
inapproriate to both.

I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
in the other groups.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

Pooched > wrote in message >...
>
>
> <sarcasm>
>
> DAMNIT, don't ruffle dubya's feathers!
>
> He is da messiah! [You misplet 'mess']
>
> <sarcasm/>

At least he makes no claim to be a messiah, though it sometimes
seems like he claims he consults with the Almighty on every
important decision. Perhaps that explains why he never admits
to making a mistake.

--

FF

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
> from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
> inapproriate to both.
>
> I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
> interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
> in the other groups.

"fred" admits he got trounced.

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<io5mc.27189$IG1.1154544@attbi_s04>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > m...
> > > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> > news:<ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54>...
> > > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > > om...
> > > >
> > > > > >BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > > > > > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> > > > >
> > > > > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> > > > > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
> > > >
> > > > No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a
report
> > from a
> > > > soldier.
> > >
> > > Free free to prove your assertion.
> >
> > This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers. Look up
the
> > name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." He set the ball rolling on this.
>
> Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
> coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.

I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like you have
been in every thread here.

[Pooched]

On 5 May 2004 14:00:02 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

>Pooched > wrote in message >...
>>
>>
>> <sarcasm>
>>
>> DAMNIT, don't ruffle dubya's feathers!
>>
>> He is da messiah! [You misplet 'mess']
>>
>> <sarcasm/>
>
>At least he makes no claim to be a messiah, though it sometimes
>seems like he claims he consults with the Almighty on every
>important decision. Perhaps that explains why he never admits
>to making a mistake.

Consulting with God on important decisions usually means you
frequently admit to mistakes.

And, ya, Dubya doesn't claim to be the messiah. But most of his
supporters sure treat him like one.

[Pooched]

On Wed, 05 May 2004 03:37:21 GMT, "Morton Davis" >
wrote:

>
>"Pooched" > wrote in message
...
>> On 4 May 2004 18:07:20 -0700, (Fred the Red
>> Shirt) wrote:
>> >> Let's see you support your claim, for a change.
>> >
>> >Perhaps he can refer you here:
>> >
>>
>><http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1403812000d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
>oe=UTF-8&selm=ef427f7c.0405030951.7fe475b6%40posting.google .com>
>>
>> This guy has Bush tinted glasses on. He won't ever understand how
>> sleep deprivation, beatings, being forced to stand around butt ass
>> naked, and other tortures are tortures.
>>
>> No problem though, there's always hell or purgatory waiting for him.
>> =)
>
>Howdy, ****wit. How are these improprieties equal to being hung up, naked,
>by your thumbs, castrated; watching your wife, your sisters, your daughters
>gang raped and murdered, and male family members castrated, beaten,
>murdered, before your eyes - before you are fed feet-first, alive, into a
>chipper/shredder?
>
>-*MORT*-
>

<sarcasm>

That's not torture.

<sarcasm/>

[Pooched]

On 5 May 2004 13:28:59 -0700, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:
>Execution of spies, sabotuers, POWs and civilians are all allowed
>under the Geneva conventions. But only after conviction by a
>competent court or tribunal. That last is the part you were
>neglected to consider. None of the detainees at Guantanamo
>have been tried at all, therefore there is no basis within the
>context of the 1949 Conventions to deny them POW status.

You know, if I could speak Korean, I bet they argued along the same
lines as the Bush administration to keep our men imprisoned there long
after the war was over.

Declaing war on something that can not be defeated (drugs or terror)
is a great way to get that legal ground needed to do all sorts of fun
things as a dictator.

BUSH 2004! --- SEIG HEIL!

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<xkemc.37579$kh4.1890809@attbi_s52>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
> > from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
> > inapproriate to both.
> >
> > I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
> > interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
> > in the other groups.
>
> "fred" admits he got trounced.

If you keep this up folks will accuse me of having made
you up to be my personal straw man.

--

FF

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<xkemc.37579$kh4.1890809@attbi_s52>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
> > > from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
> > > inapproriate to both.
> > >
> > > I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
> > > interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
> > > in the other groups.
> >
> > "fred" admits he got trounced.
>
> If you keep this up folks will accuse me of having made
> you up to be my personal straw man.

Evidently you don't understand the term "strawman" any better than you
understand words like "logic" and truth. You have failed to answer on point. You
have attempted to spin and lie about what others say. You are now evading.


"The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
claim, and you know it."

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<noemc.37604$Ik.2411447@attbi_s53>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<io5mc.27189$IG1.1154544@attbi_s04>...
> > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > m...
> > > > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54>...
> > > > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > > > om...
> > > > >
> > > > > > >BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > > > > > > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> > > > > > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
> > > > >
> > > > > No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a
> report
> from a
> > > > > soldier.
> > > >
> > > > Free free to prove your assertion.
> > >
> > > This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers. Look up
> the
> > > name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." He set the ball rolling on this.
> >
> > Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
> > coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.
>
> I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like you have
> been in every thread here.

To the contrary, you presented no evidence that Specialist
Joseph M. Darby even exists.

--

FF

[torresD]

"Fred the Red Shirt"
BTW, are you aware of who it was
that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
The wheels were going in circles befor that.

No, "Fred," that is not the case.
the wheels were set rolling by
a report from a soldier.

Free free to prove your assertion.

This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers.
Look up the name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby."

He set the ball rolling on this.

> Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
> coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.

> I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like you
have
> > been in every thread here.
>
> To the contrary, you presented no evidence that Specialist
> Joseph M. Darby even exists.


Specialist Joseph M. Darby from Somerset,Pennsylvania
High School Teacher, employer, he was working at Wendy's
to help his family, his neighbors were interviewed.
The pastor of his church was interviewed.

His teacher said, that when Darby was right,
he would not back down, but was always respectful.

All interviewed describe Darby as a super straight arrow,
with a strong sense of right and wrong.

Joseph Darby, was praised by Senator Warner,
of the Senated Armed Services Committee today,
as a "Fine American" trusting in American values
and knowing when something was wrong.

Look it up, on CSPAN.

..

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<noemc.37604$Ik.2411447@attbi_s53>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> > news:<io5mc.27189$IG1.1154544@attbi_s04>...
> > > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > > m...
> > > > > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> > news:<ZyPlc.30855$0H1.2564968@attbi_s54>...
> > > > > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > > > > om...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > >BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > > > > > > > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My
Lai.
> > > > > > > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > No, "Fred," that is not the case. The wheels were set rolling by a
> > report
> > from a
> > > > > > soldier.
> > > > >
> > > > > Free free to prove your assertion.
> > > >
> > > > This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers.
Look up
> > the
> > > > name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby." He set the ball rolling on this.
> > >
> > > Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
> > > coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.
> >
> > I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like you
have
> > been in every thread here.
>
> To the contrary, you presented no evidence that Specialist
> Joseph M. Darby even exists.

I presented you with a fact. You can't deal with it so you evade. That's all you
have.

[Yardpilot]

"torresD" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Fred the Red Shirt"
> BTW, are you aware of who it was
> that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> The wheels were going in circles befor that.
>
> No, "Fred," that is not the case.
> the wheels were set rolling by
> a report from a soldier.
>
> Free free to prove your assertion.
>
> This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers.
> Look up the name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby."
>
> He set the ball rolling on this.
>
> > Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
> > coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.
>
> > I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like you
> have
> > > been in every thread here.
> >
> > To the contrary, you presented no evidence that Specialist
> > Joseph M. Darby even exists.
>
>
> Specialist Joseph M. Darby from Somerset,Pennsylvania
> High School Teacher, employer, he was working at Wendy's
> to help his family, his neighbors were interviewed.
> The pastor of his church was interviewed.
>
> His teacher said, that when Darby was right,
> he would not back down, but was always respectful.
>
> All interviewed describe Darby as a super straight arrow,
> with a strong sense of right and wrong.
>
> Joseph Darby, was praised by Senator Warner,
> of the Senated Armed Services Committee today,
> as a "Fine American" trusting in American values
> and knowing when something was wrong.
>
> Look it up, on CSPAN.

It's all over the place.

http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[JStONGE123]

I have no sympathy for the $hitbags in the Abu Ghraib prison. I noticed that
none of them were burnt alive, hacked up and hung from a bridge in front of a
jeering mob.

Sup with that BS? My tax dollars are being wasted!!!




The Durango 95 purred away real horrorshow. A nice warm vibratey feeling all
through your guttiwuts.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<Lt4nc.4794$z06.916142@attbi_s01>...
> "torresD" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > "Fred the Red Shirt"
> > BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
> >
> > No, "Fred," that is not the case.
> > the wheels were set rolling by
> > a report from a soldier.
> >
> > Free free to prove your assertion.
> >
> > This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers.
> > Look up the name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby."
> >
> > He set the ball rolling on this.
> >
> > > Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
> > > coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.
>
> > > I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like you
> have
> > > > been in every thread here.
> > >
> > > To the contrary, you presented no evidence that Specialist
> > > Joseph M. Darby even exists.
> >
> >
> > Specialist Joseph M. Darby from Somerset,Pennsylvania
> > High School Teacher, employer, he was working at Wendy's
> > to help his family, his neighbors were interviewed.
> > The pastor of his church was interviewed.
> >
> > His teacher said, that when Darby was right,
> > he would not back down, but was always respectful.
> >
> > All interviewed describe Darby as a super straight arrow,
> > with a strong sense of right and wrong.
> >
> > Joseph Darby, was praised by Senator Warner,
> > of the Senated Armed Services Committee today,
> > as a "Fine American" trusting in American values
> > and knowing when something was wrong.
> >
> > Look it up, on CSPAN.
>
> It's all over the place.
>
> http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

From the source you provide:

A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
meant for public release, was completed in late February.

Sounds like a coverup to me.

--

FF

[torresD]

"Fred the Red Shirt"
> http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
>
> From the source you provide:
>
> A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> meant for public release, was completed in late February.
>
> Sounds like a coverup to me.
>
> --
>
> FF
Taguba reported that Karpinski was cut off from
sections of her command, she was not allowed to
enter areas of her own command.
Something really stinks.

[torresD]

The New Yorker is a reputable magazine, with an excellent reputation.
Look it up on GOOGLE.

"Dave @hotmail.com>" <dlzwicky<removethis> wrote in message
news:pogoc.26507$bS1.6233@okepread02...
> Isn't the New Yorker that paper that had writers making up stuff to sell
> papers couple months ago? Doesn't sound like a very reliable source.
>
>
>
> "torresD" > wrote in message
> hlink.net...
> >
> > "Fred the Red Shirt"
> > > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
> > >
> > > From the source you provide:
> > >
> > > A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> > > and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> > > Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> > > Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> > > under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> > > Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> > > meant for public release, was completed in late February.
> > >
> > > Sounds like a coverup to me.
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > FF
> > Taguba reported that Karpinski was cut off from
> > sections of her command, she was not allowed to
> > enter areas of her own command.
> > Something really stinks.
> >
> >
>
>

[Dave]

Isn't the New Yorker that paper that had writers making up stuff to sell
papers couple months ago? Doesn't sound like a very reliable source.



"torresD" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
> "Fred the Red Shirt"
> > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
> >
> > From the source you provide:
> >
> > A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> > and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> > Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> > Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> > under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> > Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> > meant for public release, was completed in late February.
> >
> > Sounds like a coverup to me.
> >
> > --
> >
> > FF
> Taguba reported that Karpinski was cut off from
> sections of her command, she was not allowed to
> enter areas of her own command.
> Something really stinks.
>
>

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<Lt4nc.4794$z06.916142@attbi_s01>...
> > "torresD" > wrote in message
> > hlink.net...
> > >
> > > "Fred the Red Shirt"
> > > BTW, are you aware of who it was
> > > that set the wheels in motion on this matter?
> > > Yes, the anonymous sources who released the photos, just like My Lai.
> > > The wheels were going in circles befor that.
> > >
> > > No, "Fred," that is not the case.
> > > the wheels were set rolling by
> > > a report from a soldier.
> > >
> > > Free free to prove your assertion.
> > >
> > > This from "fred" who yaps about other people not reading the papers.
> > > Look up the name "Specialist Joseph M. Darby."
> > >
> > > He set the ball rolling on this.
> > >
> > > > Free free to prove your assertion that anything other than a
> > > > coverup was in progress prior to the publication of the photos.
> >
> > > > I just did, dip****. Feel free to be stomped into the dirt again like
you
> > have
> > > > > been in every thread here.
> > > >
> > > > To the contrary, you presented no evidence that Specialist
> > > > Joseph M. Darby even exists.
> > >
> > >
> > > Specialist Joseph M. Darby from Somerset,Pennsylvania
> > > High School Teacher, employer, he was working at Wendy's
> > > to help his family, his neighbors were interviewed.
> > > The pastor of his church was interviewed.
> > >
> > > His teacher said, that when Darby was right,
> > > he would not back down, but was always respectful.
> > >
> > > All interviewed describe Darby as a super straight arrow,
> > > with a strong sense of right and wrong.
> > >
> > > Joseph Darby, was praised by Senator Warner,
> > > of the Senated Armed Services Committee today,
> > > as a "Fine American" trusting in American values
> > > and knowing when something was wrong.
> > >
> > > Look it up, on CSPAN.
> >
> > It's all over the place.
> >
> > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
>
> From the source you provide:
>
> A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> meant for public release, was completed in late February.
>
> Sounds like a coverup to me.

In your dreams.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<74ooc.33144$536.6041503@attbi_s03>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
>...
> > >
> > > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
> >
> > From the source you provide:
> >
> > A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> > and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> > Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> > Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> > under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> > Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> > meant for public release, was completed in late February.
> >
> > Sounds like a coverup to me.
>
> In your dreams.

The guest today on the Diane Rnem show was Senator John McCain,
a man who knows about the abuse of prisoners. The first thing
Ms Rhem asked him was if he had ever recieved an answer from
Rumsfeld and the DOD to his question about the chain of
command at Abu Graib. He replied that he had received the chart
which the witnesses had neglected (his choice of words) to bring
to the hearing but that chart did not clarify the issue and he
STILL had not received an answer as to hwo the chain of command
was organised at Abu Graib.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<Ke5mc.27287$TD4.3869849@attbi_s01>...
talk.politics.guns removed from distribution for obvious reasons.

> "Pooched" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Mon, 03 May 2004 01:43:36 GMT, "Yardpilot" >
> > wrote:
> > >> SHHHH! You'll ruin Dubya's chances of getting reelected if you force
> > >> his priests to see the world as it really is!
> > >
> > >So, you can't support your claim. No surprise there.
> > >
> >
> > You seem to be hung up
>
> You seem to be unable to support claims made.

See:

Message-ID: >

<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=158a3325.0405111700.190750f9%40posting .google.com&output=gplain>

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<7ftmc.30565$Ia6.4967886@attbi_s03>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<xkemc.37579$kh4.1890809@attbi_s52>...
> > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > > > I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
> > > > from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
> > > > inapproriate to both.
> > > >
> > > > I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
> > > > interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
> > > > in the other groups.
> > >
> > > "fred" admits he got trounced.
> >
> > If you keep this up folks will accuse me of having made
> > you up to be my personal straw man.
>
> Evidently you don't understand the term "strawman" any better than you
> understand words like "logic" and truth. You have failed to answer on point. You
> have attempted to spin and lie about what others say. You are now evading.
>
>
> "The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
> suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
> claim, and you know it."

See:

Message-ID: >

<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ef427f7c.0405061427.1573d4f%40posting. google.com&output=gplain>

Message-ID: >

<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ef427f7c.0405051245.5ef79a22%40posting .google.com&output=gplain>

Message-ID: >

<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=158a3325.0405111700.190750f9%40posting .google.com&output=gplain>

--

FF

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<74ooc.33144$536.6041503@attbi_s03>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> >...
> > > >
> > > > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
> > >
> > > From the source you provide:
> > >
> > > A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> > > and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> > > Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> > > Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> > > under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> > > Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> > > meant for public release, was completed in late February.
> > >
> > > Sounds like a coverup to me.
> >
> > In your dreams.
>
> The guest today on the Diane Rnem show was Senator John McCain,
> a man who knows about the abuse of prisoners. The first thing
> Ms Rhem asked him was if he had ever recieved an answer from
> Rumsfeld and the DOD to his question about the chain of
> command at Abu Graib. He replied that he had received the chart
> which the witnesses had neglected (his choice of words) to bring
> to the hearing but that chart did not clarify the issue and he
> STILL had not received an answer as to hwo the chain of command
> was organised at Abu Graib.

That doesn't support your claim. In fact, it is laughably off-point.

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<7ftmc.30565$Ia6.4967886@attbi_s03>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> > news:<xkemc.37579$kh4.1890809@attbi_s52>...
> > > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > > om...
> > > > > I've removed rec.aviation.military, and talk.politics.guns
> > > > > from the distribution list in my reply as this thread was
> > > > > inapproriate to both.
> > > > >
> > > > > I post this to rec.aviation.military, talk.politics.guns so
> > > > > interested parties (both of them are welcome) can follow it
> > > > > in the other groups.
> > > >
> > > > "fred" admits he got trounced.
> > >
> > > If you keep this up folks will accuse me of having made
> > > you up to be my personal straw man.
> >
> > Evidently you don't understand the term "strawman" any better than you
> > understand words like "logic" and truth. You have failed to answer on point.
You
> > have attempted to spin and lie about what others say. You are now evading.
> >
> >
> > "The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
> > suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
> > claim, and you know it."
>
> See:

Try to focus on the matter actually at hand, if you can.

The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
claim, and you know it.

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<ZbUoc.43814$z06.6397144@attbi_s01>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<7ftmc.30565$Ia6.4967886@attbi_s03>...
> > >
> > > "The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
> > > suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
> > > claim, and you know it."
> >
> > See:
> >
> Message-ID: >
>
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ef427f7c.0405061427.1573d4f%40posting. google.com&output=gplain>
>
> Message-ID: >
>
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=ef427f7c.0405051245.5ef79a22%40posting .google.com&output=gplain>
>
> Message-ID: >
>
> <http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=158a3325.0405111700.190750f9%40posting .google.com&output=gplain>

"YardBird" > lied in message
news:<ZbUoc.43814$z06.6397144@attbi_s01>...

> Try to focus on the matter actually at hand, if you can.
>
> The comment was, "America has been routinely transferring
> suspects to other countries to be tortured." There was NO support for that
> claim, and you know it.

>

<http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=158a3325.0405111700.190750f9%40posting .google.com&output=gplain>

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Morton Davis" > wrote in message news:<zeqlc.16667$_41.1056281@attbi_s02>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> m...
> > "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> news:<XGblc.11724$IG1.386923@attbi_s04>...
> > > > >
> > > > In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> > > > Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
> > > > into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> > > > same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Not by accepted definitions of torture.
> > >
> >
> > Accepted by whom?
>
> Why, the USA, for one. The UN, apparently, for another. The World Court, or
> whatever the hell they call trhemselves, for another. Unless you an show
> where they have filed a protest.
> >

See also:

<http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/05/14/torture_at_abu_ghraib_followed_cias_manual/>

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Dave" > wrote in message news:<pogoc.26507$bS1.6233@okepread02>...
> Isn't the New Yorker that paper that had writers making up stuff to sell
> papers couple months ago? Doesn't sound like a very reliable source.
>

No, it is not.

I think you are recalling the New York Times, and IIRC it was one (1)
writer, not 'writers'.

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

"Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<paUoc.43283$536.7599994@attbi_s03>...
> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> news:<74ooc.33144$536.6041503@attbi_s03>...
> > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > om...
> > >...
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
> > > >
> > > > From the source you provide:
> > > >
> > > > A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> > > > and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> > > > Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> > > > Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> > > > under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> > > > Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> > > > meant for public release, was completed in late February.
> > > >
> > > > Sounds like a coverup to me.
> > >
> > > In your dreams.
> >
> > The guest today on the Diane Rnem show was Senator John McCain,
> > a man who knows about the abuse of prisoners. The first thing
> > Ms Rhem asked him was if he had ever recieved an answer from
> > Rumsfeld and the DOD to his question about the chain of
> > command at Abu Graib. He replied that he had received the chart
> > which the witnesses had neglected (his choice of words) to bring
> > to the hearing but that chart did not clarify the issue and he
> > STILL had not received an answer as to hwo the chain of command
> > was organised at Abu Graib.
>
> That doesn't support your claim. In fact, it is laughably off-point.

As you know this shows that the DOD is STILL stonewalling, refusing
to provide the information needed to identify the respnsible officers
and officials.

Can you provide a link to the UCMJ online?

--

FF

[Fred the Red Shirt]

(Curtis CCR) wrote in message >...
> (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote in message >...
> > talk.politics.guns removed from distribution as this thread should
> > never have been crossposted there in the first place.
> >
> > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message news:<yEIkc.6651$Ik.592666@attbi_s53>...
> > > "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> > > news:KACkc.1001$Ia6.92253@attbi_s03...
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > Where are the videos of Americans cheering in the streets over what
> > > > happened, like the supporters ofd the "insurgents" when they hung the burned
> > > > bodies of our dead from bridges? There are none because we are not cheering.
> > >
> > > If something like this happens, we crack down on the perpetrators. Few if any
> > > people celebrate such things. It seems we worry more about people in other
> > > countries than we do our own when it comes to abuse of authority.
> >
> > Feel free to prove your assertion.
> >
> > Here's proof of how the Bush Administration cracked down BEFOR photos
> > were published:
> >
> > http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=518258
> >
> > In Washington, an army official revealed that one US soldier
> > was convicted of murder for shooting a prisoner to death in
> > September 2003 at a detention centre in Iraq, and that another
> > prisoner was killed at the Abu Ghraib jail near Baghdad
> > two months later by a private contractor working for the CIA.
> >
> > The soldier - convicted by court martial - was thrown out
> > of the service but did not serve time in jail. The official
> > said that the soldier shot the prisoner after he had thrown
> > stones at him. The serviceman was found to have used excessive
> > force. No action was taken against the CIA contractor because
> > the military had no legal jurisdiction.
> >
> > OTOH, Reuters reported that the soldier was convicted of murder for
> > killing the prisoner with a stone. It seems we need the text of the
> > actua DOD news release.
> >
> > Would you care to post it for us?
>
> Is there a DOD news release?

Why don't you look for one?

I've done my share of searching and posting links in this thread,
no?

--

FF

[GS]

In article >, (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
>"Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> news:<zeqlc.16667$_41.1056281@attbi_s02>...
>> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
>> m...
>> > "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
>> news:<XGblc.11724$IG1.386923@attbi_s04>...
>> > > > >
>> > > > In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
>> > > > Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
>> > > > into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
>> > > > same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
>> > > >
>> > >
>> > > Not by accepted definitions of torture.
>> > >
>> >
>> > Accepted by whom?
>>
>> Why, the USA, for one. The UN, apparently, for another. The World Court, or
>> whatever the hell they call trhemselves, for another. Unless you an show
>> where they have filed a protest.
>> >
>
>See also:
>
><http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/05/14/to
>rture_at_abu_ghraib_followed_cias_manual/>
>
See the Boston Globe's retraction and admitting that the photo's were
fake. Did you just forget that part?

[GS]

In article >,
(Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
>> That doesn't support your claim. In fact, it is laughably off-point.
>
>As you know this shows that the DOD is STILL stonewalling, refusing
>to provide the information needed to identify the respnsible officers
>and officials.
>
>Can you provide a link to the UCMJ online?
>
Can you provide proof that there are in fact officers and
officials witholding information?

[Fred the Red Shirt]

(GS) wrote in message >...
>
> Can you provide proof that there are in fact officers and
> officials witholding information?

Reviewing the thread we see:

> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> om...
>...

The guest today on the Diane Rnem show was Senator John McCain,
.... The first thing
Ms Rhem asked him was if he had ever received an answer from
Rumsfeld and the DOD to his question about the chain of
command at Abu Graib. He replied ...he
STILL had not received an answer as to hwo the chain of command
was organised at Abu Graib.


Yardbird wrote:
> >> That doesn't support your claim. In fact, it is laughably off-point.
> >

> In article >,
> (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:

> >As you know this shows that the DOD is STILL stonewalling, refusing
> >to provide the information needed to identify the respnsible officers
> >and officials.
> >
> >Can you provide a link to the UCMJ online?
> >

(GS) wrote in message >...

> Can you provide proof that there are in fact officers and
> officials witholding information?

John McCain say that he had not received the information
that he requested. Sen McCain said that what he received
in response to his request did NOT answer the question.

I take John McCain at his word on this. I cannot prove
to you that I heard John McCain say those things.

A failure to provide the requested information does not
prove that it is being deliberately withheld, but the
alternative explanations, for example, no one at teh DOD
actually knowing what the chain of command was, seems
rather unlikely, don't you agree?

See also:

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/05/17/1431219


--

FF

[Yardpilot]

"Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
om...
> "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
news:<paUoc.43283$536.7599994@attbi_s03>...
> > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > om...
> > > "Yardpilot" > wrote in message
> > news:<74ooc.33144$536.6041503@attbi_s03>...
> > > > "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> > > > om...
> > > >...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact
> > > > >
> > > > > From the source you provide:
> > > > >
> > > > > A month later, General Karpinski was formally admonished
> > > > > and quietly suspended, and a major investigation into the
> > > > > Army's prison system, authorized by Lieutenant General
> > > > > Ricardo S. Sanchez, the senior commander in Iraq, was
> > > > > under way. A fifty-three-page report, obtained by The New
> > > > > Yorker, written by Major General Antonio M. Taguba and not
> > > > > meant for public release, was completed in late February.
> > > > >
> > > > > Sounds like a coverup to me.
> > > >
> > > > In your dreams.
> > >
> > > The guest today on the Diane Rnem show was Senator John McCain,
> > > a man who knows about the abuse of prisoners. The first thing
> > > Ms Rhem asked him was if he had ever recieved an answer from
> > > Rumsfeld and the DOD to his question about the chain of
> > > command at Abu Graib. He replied that he had received the chart
> > > which the witnesses had neglected (his choice of words) to bring
> > > to the hearing but that chart did not clarify the issue and he
> > > STILL had not received an answer as to hwo the chain of command
> > > was organised at Abu Graib.
> >
> > That doesn't support your claim. In fact, it is laughably off-point.
>
> As you know this shows that the DOD is STILL stonewalling, refusing
> to provide the information needed to identify the respnsible officers
> and officials.

No, but fantisize all you want.

> Can you provide a link to the UCMJ online?

Yes. Can't you?

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm

[Spammers Suck]

(GS) wrote in message >...
> In article >, (Fred the Red Shirt) wrote:
> >"Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> > news:<zeqlc.16667$_41.1056281@attbi_s02>...
> >> "Fred the Red Shirt" > wrote in message
> >> m...
> >> > "Morton Davis" > wrote in message
> news:<XGblc.11724$IG1.386923@attbi_s04>...
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > In News Conferences spokesmen for the DOD admitted that prisoners at
> >> > > > Guatanomo Bay were being subjected to sleep deprivation and forced
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> >> > > > into 'uncompfortable positions' for long periods of time. In the
> >> > > > same statements the same spokemen denied they were being tortured.
> >> > > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Not by accepted definitions of torture.
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > Accepted by whom?
> >>
> >> Why, the USA, for one. The UN, apparently, for another. The World Court, or
> >> whatever the hell they call trhemselves, for another. Unless you an show
> >> where they have filed a protest.
> >> >
> >
> >See also:
> >
> ><http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2004/05/14/to
> >rture_at_abu_ghraib_followed_cias_manual/>
> >
> See the Boston Globe's retraction and admitting that the photo's were
> fake. Did you just forget that part?

Don't change the subject.

What photos? The article only mentions photos in passing and no
part of the article is based on photos. To my knowledge very
few photos from camp X-Ray have been released. Which of those
do you think are fake?

--

FF