North-Up versus Direction-Up?

[ContestID67]

It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
than "North-Up".

WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.

Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
*ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
that is, when soaring. I started using north-up at first, but soon
found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
the next turn point. Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
and rubbing my stomach at the same time. Maybe this is unique to a
thermal-only soaring climate. NOTE: I am not directionally
challanged.

Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
they do.

Thanks, John

[Tuno]

Not sure what you mean by "direction-up". (Wherever my nose is
pointed, that's my direction, I figure.)

I use "goal up" when I have a turnpoint dialed in, "north up"
otherwise.

~ted/2NO

[Nyal Williams[_2_]]

I agree with the direction up. I AM directionally challenged on the ground
and when I enter an building I no longer remember after one turn which way
north is.

If you get any more dirty looks, ask if they always hold their sectional
north up or if they rotate it to follow their course line. It can be done
both ways, but course line up is much easier.


At 02:09 17 December 2008, ContestID67 wrote:
>It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
>the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
>various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
>than "North-Up".
>
>WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
>soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.
>
>Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
>*ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
>that is, when soaring. I started using north-up at first, but soon
>found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
>anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
>the next turn point. Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
>icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
>compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
>and rubbing my stomach at the same time. Maybe this is unique to a
>thermal-only soaring climate. NOTE: I am not directionally
>challanged.
>
>Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
>they do.
>
>Thanks, John
>
>

[Ray[_4_]]

While flying, especially in thermals, I prefer "heads up".
W7



ContestID67 wrote:
> It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
> the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
> various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
> than "North-Up".
>
> WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
> soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.
>
> Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
> *ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
> that is, when soaring. I started using north-up at first, but soon
> found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
> anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
> the next turn point. Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
> icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
> compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
> and rubbing my stomach at the same time. Maybe this is unique to a
> thermal-only soaring climate. NOTE: I am not directionally
> challanged.
>
> Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
> they do.
>
> Thanks, John
>

[MarkHawke7]

I am one of the developers of SoarPilot which supports, north up,
track/direction up and course-up and I have pondered this many times.
I believe a given person's preference is simply that...personal. I'm
not a neuro-scientist in anyway, but I think a given person's
preference is mostly driven by how they process spacial and/or
geospacial representations in general and by what they have been
taught to use. Do you prefer to have what you see outside the glider
match what you are seeing on the screen OR do you prefer to mentally
convert and correlate what you are seeing outside with what you would
see on a North up map? From elementary school we are taught to use
and read north-up maps. So we become VERY comfortable with that way
of looking and processing geospacial information. As an example of
what I mean, I have seen a large world wall map in the typical, oval,
equidistant-cylindrical representation. It is normal in every respect
for one....it has the world depicted South UP. And when you look at
it, it immediately seems VERY, VERY wrong? But if you think about it,
it is no more incorrect a representation than a North up map. It only
seems wrong because it's not they way we're used to seeing it.

Later!

-Mark
PS. I like track up best as well.
On Dec 16, 8:22*pm, Ray > wrote:
> While flying, especially in thermals, I prefer "heads up".
> W7
>
> ContestID67 wrote:
> > It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
> > the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
> > various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
> > than "North-Up".
>
> > WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
> > soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.
>
> > Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
> > *ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
> > that is, when soaring. * I started using north-up at first, but soon
> > found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
> > anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
> > the next turn point. *Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
> > icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
> > compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
> > and rubbing my stomach at the same time. *Maybe this is unique to a
> > thermal-only soaring climate. * *NOTE: I am not directionally
> > challanged.
>
> > Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
> > they do.
>
> > Thanks, John

[[email protected]]

I taught map and compass skills for the army for many years. We
always plotted our route in North Up, but then used it oriented to
track when we were out in the field -- much easier to co-ordinate
objects on the ground with objects on the map this way, we looked in
the correct relative direction.

[[email protected]]

I'm a happy use of SoarPilot. On course I use it in "track up" mode
because that gives me
the most screen space along my path of flight. I'm not interested in
what's 90 degrees off
the course line (not usually anyway). While thermalling I'm not
looking at the PDA much;
the color coding that SP does for the lift is usually too far behind
what I'm doing, and it's too
hard to see. All I look at is the average lift calculation so I know
when the lift is petering out
(I leave when the 20sec average drops below that bottom-top average,
which usually means
the thermal is down to 80% of its best). Well, I do look at the
course line, but again
the depiction is usually a couple seconds out of date so it's easy to
overshoot the
course line if I depend on the PDA. Instead, I try to pick out
landmarks in the direction
I want to go so I stay oriented, and then pick out lift sources in the
last several times around
in the thermal. As far as looking at the map (I refer to that too) I
use that both "course-up"
and "north-up" depending on whether I want to find landmarks or read
the text printed on
the map.

-- Matt

PS that north-up cylindrical projection we all had in our schoolrooms
as kids had another
feature -- the Northern Hemisphere is depicted in a larger scale than
the Southern! They
did it that way since most of the landmass is in the north. The next
time you see one take
note of where the equator is. That "upside-down" map you saw, Mark,
places the equator
back in the middle so the sizes won't match what you remember even if
you look at it
in your familiar orientation.

On Dec 16, 10:43*pm, MarkHawke7 > wrote:
> I am one of the developers of SoarPilot which supports, north up,
> track/direction up and course-up and I have pondered this many times.
> I believe a given person's preference is simply that...personal. *I'm
> not a neuro-scientist in anyway, but I think a given person's
> preference is mostly driven by how they process spacial and/or
> geospacial representations in general and by what they have been
> taught to use. *Do you prefer to have what you see outside the glider
> match what you are seeing on the screen OR do you prefer to mentally
> convert and correlate what you are seeing outside with what you would
> see on a North up map? *From elementary school we are taught to use
> and read north-up maps. *So we become VERY comfortable with that way
> of looking and processing geospacial information. *As an example of
> what I mean, I have seen a large world wall map in the typical, oval,
> equidistant-cylindrical representation. *It is normal in every respect
> for one....it has the world depicted South UP. *And when you look at
> it, it immediately seems VERY, VERY wrong? *But if you think about it,
> it is no more incorrect a representation than a North up map. *It only
> seems wrong because it's not they way we're used to seeing it.
>
> Later!
>
> -Mark
> PS. *I like track up best as well.
> On Dec 16, 8:22*pm, Ray > wrote:
>
> > While flying, especially in thermals, I prefer "heads up".
> > W7
>
> > ContestID67 wrote:
> > > It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
> > > the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
> > > various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
> > > than "North-Up".
>
> > > WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
> > > soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.
>
> > > Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
> > > *ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
> > > that is, when soaring. * I started using north-up at first, but soon
> > > found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
> > > anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
> > > the next turn point. *Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
> > > icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
> > > compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
> > > and rubbing my stomach at the same time. *Maybe this is unique to a
> > > thermal-only soaring climate. * *NOTE: I am not directionally
> > > challanged.
>
> > > Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
> > > they do.
>
> > > Thanks, John

[[email protected]]

On Dec 16, 8:29*pm, wrote:
> I'm a happy use of SoarPilot. *On course I use it in "track up" mode
> because that gives me
> the most screen space along my path of flight. *I'm not interested in
> what's 90 degrees off
> the course line (not usually anyway). *While thermalling I'm not
> looking at the PDA much;
> the color coding that SP does for the lift is usually too far behind
> what I'm doing, and it's too
> hard to see. *All I look at is the average lift calculation so I know
> when the lift is petering out
> (I leave when the 20sec average drops below that bottom-top average,
> which usually means
> the thermal is down to 80% of its best). *Well, I do look at the
> course line, but again
> the depiction is usually a couple seconds out of date so it's easy to
> overshoot the
> course line if I depend on the PDA. *Instead, I try to pick out
> landmarks in the direction
> I want to go so I stay oriented, and then pick out lift sources in the
> last several times around
> in the thermal. *As far as looking at the map (I refer to that too) I
> use that both "course-up"
> and "north-up" depending on whether I want to find landmarks or read
> the text printed on
> the map.
>
> -- Matt


Track up for me - makes it easier to align what's on the map with the
view out the window, particularly for course deviations, finding
alternates, picking MAT turnpoints, etc.

9B

[DRN]

On Dec 16, 9:09*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:
> It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
> the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
> various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
> than "North-Up".
>
> WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
> soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.
>
> Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
> *ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
> that is, when soaring. * I started using north-up at first, but soon
> found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
> anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
> the next turn point. *Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
> icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
> compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
> and rubbing my stomach at the same time. *Maybe this is unique to a
> thermal-only soaring climate. * *NOTE: I am not directionally
> challanged.
>
> Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
> they do.
>
> Thanks, John

Actually, the question is a bit more complicated then you've
posed, as there are more options:
- track up
- North up
- nose up

Nose up is not what precedes a stall ;-)
It's when the map is rotated to match what you
see over the nose, adjusting your track to take
account of the wind. Also used in ILEC SN10
to rotate the wind arrow so it matches the view
outside. The advantage is substantial when
you're flying with a crosswind.

ILEC SN10 pilots can choose North or Nose Up
for the map (wind arrow is always rotated Nose
Up).

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave "YO electric"

[kirk.stant]

Heading (Nose) up while flying - allows orientation with real world
(really important when winds are strong!). But this requires a good
Track display on the map; I have a nice track line on my mSeeYou map
that I can use to see how my wind corrected track compares with my
desired course line. I just adjust my heading to make sure my actual
track is taking me to the next turnpoint to avoid "homing". Also
matches the map on my SN10.

North up when creating a task - somewhat easier to see "big picture",
but not useful when actually flying, IMO (other than possibly when
thermalling - tried it but still prefer Heading up).

Kirk
66

[Bill Bullimore[_2_]]

real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brian thing.
your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
to a variable?
go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!

bill ;-]


At 14:18 17 December 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
>Heading (Nose) up while flying - allows orientation with real world
>(really important when winds are strong!). But this requires a good
>Track display on the map; I have a nice track line on my mSeeYou map
>that I can use to see how my wind corrected track compares with my
>desired course line. I just adjust my heading to make sure my actual
>track is taking me to the next turnpoint to avoid "homing". Also
>matches the map on my SN10.
>
>North up when creating a task - somewhat easier to see "big picture",
>but not useful when actually flying, IMO (other than possibly when
>thermalling - tried it but still prefer Heading up).
>
>Kirk
>66
>
>
>

[Bill Bullimore[_2_]]

real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brain thing.
you are the variable, north is a constant, so why orientate to a
variable?
go on then - bring out your feminine side if you must, fly track or course
up.

;-] bill




At 14:18 17 December 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
>Heading (Nose) up while flying - allows orientation with real world
>(really important when winds are strong!). But this requires a good
>Track display on the map; I have a nice track line on my mSeeYou map
>that I can use to see how my wind corrected track compares with my
>desired course line. I just adjust my heading to make sure my actual
>track is taking me to the next turnpoint to avoid "homing". Also
>matches the map on my SN10.
>
>North up when creating a task - somewhat easier to see "big picture",
>but not useful when actually flying, IMO (other than possibly when
>thermalling - tried it but still prefer Heading up).
>
>Kirk
>66
>
>
>

[Bill Bullimore[_2_]]

real pilots fly north up.
it's a left brain/right brian thing.
your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
to a variable?
go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!

bill ;-]


At 14:18 17 December 2008, kirk.stant wrote:
>Heading (Nose) up while flying - allows orientation with real world
>(really important when winds are strong!). But this requires a good
>Track display on the map; I have a nice track line on my mSeeYou map
>that I can use to see how my wind corrected track compares with my
>desired course line. I just adjust my heading to make sure my actual
>track is taking me to the next turnpoint to avoid "homing". Also
>matches the map on my SN10.
>
>North up when creating a task - somewhat easier to see "big picture",
>but not useful when actually flying, IMO (other than possibly when
>thermalling - tried it but still prefer Heading up).
>
>Kirk
>66
>
>
>

[Wayne Paul]

"Bill Bullimore" > wrote in message
...
> real pilots fly north up.
> it's a left brain/right brian thing.
> your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
> to a variable?
> go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!
>
> bill ;-]

I strongly disagree with the "real pilot" comment and mescaline/feminine
argument.

Back in the years when I flew A-3 Skywarriors and A-6 Intruders we prepared
strip charts for our low level flights. These charts were "accordion
folded" and orientated "course up." Using this format minimized the size of
the charts. It also aided in correlating items on the chart with what you
see out of the canopy or on the radar. I believe these same advantages
apply to the small PDA display.

I have never considered setting my PDA/GPS for anything except track/task
up.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder

[Andy[_1_]]

On Dec 16, 7:09*pm, ContestID67 > wrote:

> Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
> they do.


Track up. Thermal soaring. I don't use the nav display to predict the
heading to leave a thermal, I'm looking outside.

I might use "heading up" if it was an option but it is not on my
system.

I always use track up on my Garmin 396 for flying but sometimes use
North up for driving.

Many transport aircraft with glass displays have the option of heading
or track up for the nav display but only provide North up for the
display typically used for flight planning.


Andy

[Paul Remde]

Hi John,

I talk to a lot of U.S. glider pilots about soaring software. Most
(including myself) seem to prefer track up when cruising and North up when
circling. I like the map to correspond to what I see out the window while
cruising. However, while thermalling I like the map position fixed rather
than rotating. I like that SeeYou Mobile and other software programs can
make the switch automatically.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com

"ContestID67" > wrote in message
...
> It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
> the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
> various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
> than "North-Up".
>
> WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
> soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.
>
> Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
> *ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
> that is, when soaring. I started using north-up at first, but soon
> found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
> anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
> the next turn point. Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
> icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
> compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
> and rubbing my stomach at the same time. Maybe this is unique to a
> thermal-only soaring climate. NOTE: I am not directionally
> challanged.
>
> Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
> they do.
>
> Thanks, John
>

[kirk.stant]

On Dec 17, 9:45*am, Bill Bullimore >
wrote:
> real pilots fly north up.
> it's a left brain/right brian thing.
> your heading is a variable, north is a constant, so why try to orientate
> to a variable?
> go on then, bring out your feminine side, fly course/track up!
>
> bill ;-]

Really? Yeah, I guess all those military aviators aren't real pilots
- what a bunch of wussies.

Actually, real pilots fly grid north. With a sextant...

Kirk
BTDT

[Andy[_1_]]

On Dec 17, 9:56*am, "kirk.stant" > wrote:

> Really? *Yeah, I guess all those military aviators aren't real pilots
> - what a bunch of wussies.


It's been a long time since I worked on the development of Tornado nav/
attack system but my recollection is the pilot's map display had the
option to select North up. The back seat display was a combined radar/
map so little value in overlaying a North up map on the radar scope.

Ah those we the days - film strips, synchros, and stepper motors!
Something you could see working.

Andy

[ContestID67]

On Dec 17, 10:40 am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I talk to a lot of U.S. glider pilots about soaring software. Most
> (including myself) seem to prefer track up when cruising and North up when
> circling. I like the map to correspond to what I see out the window while
> cruising. However, while thermalling I like the map position fixed rather
> than rotating. I like that SeeYou Mobile and other software programs can
> make the switch automatically.
>

Paul,

I can only imagine how many times a day you talk to pilots about
soaring software! That being said, it seems that most people that
have responded to this thread, save yourself and those you speak for,
are using track/nose up. Hmmmm.

When I argue this point I talk about reducing the complexity of
routine flying activities so that I can concentrate and optimize those
actions that are really important. Driving is like that. After years
of practice, you no longer actively think about most routine driving
actions, which leaves you to actively think about the critical
aspects. After a while you instinctively knew that that car up ahead
is going to cut you off by some suptle indication which you are
probably unaware of, and you find yourself taking evasive action
without even thinking. If you have ever trained a teenager to drive,
you will remember their concentration on the really small things
("Dad, which peddle does what?") and forget about the REALLY important
things (like staying in their lane! Yikes!). Do you actively think
about the ruddle pedals and the stick when you fly anymore? I doubt
it. But I digress.

So picture yourself thermalling. Ahhhh. Of course optimizing the
thermal is critical to our sport. But there are other constants like
avoiding ships in the gaggle, maintaining coordinated flight, playing
what-ifs on the task, and...navigating...these are all secondary to
staying aloft. If I can simplify one task, I can concentrate more
fully on others. Great soaring pilots do nearly everything so second
nature that thermalling is now a secondary task and their mind can now
concentrate on even higher level issues like tactics.

OK, lets think about using north-up. My mind would be saying
something like, "I am pointing south-east because the compass says so
(or the glider icon) and I want to roll out north. Now, which
direction am I thermalling? Are there 90 degress or 270 degrees to
go? Ok, 270 degrees away, I should be there in 15 seconds. Wait, I
just went into sink, let's change that bank angle. Where was north
again? Darn, in the Midwest every direction looks identical! Oops,
I missed my exit point. I'll have to take one more circle at the top
of this thermal in weak lift. Didn't Moffat say that was a no-no?
Now, why ARE those other pilots leaving this thermal so soon?"

Now, let's review thermalling with track-up. My navigation brain mind
is saying, "I glanced at my PDA and that BIG BLACK LINE is rotating
towards me (or away from me). When it is within about 10 degrees,
I'll start rolling out and speed up. Glance again. Here the line
comes and here I go. Now, what ARE those other pilots doing sticking
around?" I would contend that this is the simpler approach and
removes a navigational complexity so that I can concentrate on the
more critical constrains of soaring...like staying aloft.

So, the bottom line is that you will probably continue to do whatever
is most comfortable for yourself. But maybe next time my words will
come back to you and you might try flying heading-up. Who knows.
Come on SPRING! My $0.02.

- John DeRosa

[Eric Greenwell]

Bill Bullimore wrote:
> real pilots fly north up.

Years ago, I remember Karl Streidieck telling me how he oriented his
paper map so the course was "up". I tried that but it was too hard to
keep turning the map in the glider; later, I realized he might have been
talking about flying on the ridges, where you wouldn't have to keep
adjusting the map orientation. I don't know what he does now, I assume
he's still a real pilot.

> it's a left brain/right brain thing.

Huh?

> you are the variable, north is a constant, so why orientate to a
> variable?

Nonsense, I'm the constant (I'm always in the same place, right behind
my nose), and the nose of my glider is a constant - it's always in front
of me (barring very unfortunate events). On the other hand, North is
always changing: sometimes it's on the left, sometimes on the right,
ahead, behind. You don't notice that?

> go on then - bring out your feminine side if you must, fly track or course
> up.

With track up, I use most of the rather small PDA screen to show me what
there is in the direction I'm going. With North up, I would see much
less, especially when I'm flying east or west.

SeeYou Mobile has Heading Up, but I haven't used it much. I'll try it
again during the next wave flight, when there is often big difference
between heading and track, and see if I like it. Normally, track and
heading are close enough it doesn't seem to be important.

Mobile also offers Goal Up, which I sometimes use when I'm flying a goal
oriented flight, like a contest or record task.

I do have the screen switch to North Up while I'm thermalling, because
it's easier to look at the map and select airports, etc. when it's steady.
--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Eric Greenwell]

ContestID67 wrote:

> OK, lets think about using north-up. My mind would be saying
> something like, "I am pointing south-east because the compass says so
> (or the glider icon) and I want to roll out north. Now, which
> direction am I thermalling? Are there 90 degress or 270 degrees to
> go? Ok, 270 degrees away, I should be there in 15 seconds. Wait, I
> just went into sink, let's change that bank angle. Where was north
> again? Darn, in the Midwest every direction looks identical! Oops,
> I missed my exit point. I'll have to take one more circle at the top
> of this thermal in weak lift. Didn't Moffat say that was a no-no?
> Now, why ARE those other pilots leaving this thermal so soon?"

John, it's not that hard! The goal line remains steady while the track
line rotates. When the track line approaches the goal line, you can roll
out and go! Easy. If you aren't using a goal, you can still easily tell
which direction the track line is pointing and roll out on a North heading.

In reality, most pilots, most of the time, already know which way to go
because they remember what they were heading towards before they began
to circle. So, they don't even need to spend any time looking at the
PDA. Most of the time I'm thermalling, the map is covered by Mobile's
"Thermalling Assistant", so it doesn't matter what the map is doing.

The problem with Track Up while circling is it's hard to see what my
drift is (wind confirmation), to study the map, or pick another goal,
or get the details on some airspace because the map is moving. All these
are so much easier when the map is steady - and THAT'S how I reduce my
cockpit workload.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[toad]

This discussion is always really fun to watch :-)

Maybe I spent too much time in my youth playing video game where you
drove some tank/helicopter/spaceship around a screen that was always
"north up".

But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
what I want if for. Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
heading up, but not in a glider.

I can't imagine using the PDA to try and roll out on a heading !
There has to be _something_ for a visual reference. Isn't there ?
Cloud, sun, ?

Todd Smith
3S

[kirk.stant]

>
> It's been a long time since I worked on the development of Tornado nav/
> attack system but my recollection is the pilot's map display had the
> option to select North up. *The back seat display was a combined radar/
> map so little value in overlaying a North up map on the radar scope.
>
> Ah those we the days - film strips, synchros, and stepper motors!
> Something you could see working.
>
> Andy

F-15E (and similar) have moving maps that can be set North or Track/
Heading up. North up for editing a route on the fly, etc. Remarkably
similar to our PDA software - except maps are digitized paper maps of
different scales, which really calls for North up to read the text!

I liked the way the Tornado overlaid the map on the radar return -
neat way to check system accuracy.

Kirk

[noel.wade]

On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad > wrote:

> But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
> what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
> heading up, but not in a glider.


Todd - The question still comes down to this: When heading in a non-
north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
nose of the glider?

I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. I don't think
of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
the side of the road and _study_ it. When I'm flying I want to be
able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. Having the
map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
the canopy makes it easy.

But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
big divide on this topic: There are people who use their GPS map like
a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
projection" tool. They look at the moving map as a way to view their
current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
experience and see themselves from above. So as a result, this type
of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. I think the "paper-map
user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

Take care,

--Noel
(Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
brain works)

[toad]

On Dec 17, 5:02*pm, "noel.wade" > wrote:
> On Dec 17, 1:06*pm, toad > wrote:
>
> > But north up makes it much easier to use the pda as a MAP, which is
> > what I want if for. * Maybe at 300 knots in a Tornado, I might want
> > heading up, but not in a glider.
>
> Todd - The question still comes down to this: *When heading in a non-
> north direction and your map is displaying north-up, don't you have to
> do some mental gymnastics to figure out how the PDA map features (like
> mountain peaks and lakes and towns) relate to what's in front of the
> nose of the glider?

Sure, some mental gymnastics are required, but they don't take any
significant time, because I have done it that way for so long.

> I'm very much in agreement with the "Track Up" crowd. *I don't think
> of it like a map in a car because for that I'm going to pull off to
> the side of the road and _study_ it. *When I'm flying I want to be
> able to glance down, and then get my eyes back _outside_. *Having the
> map already showing me exactly what I expect to see out the front of
> the canopy makes it easy.

I agree about the "eyes outside", but track up mode is slower for me
than north up.

> But I think your comments really illuminate the deeper reason for the
> big divide on this topic: *There are people who use their GPS map like
> a paper map - a la pre-flight planning; and then there are people who
> use it differently - like as an "synthetic vision" or "alternative
> projection" tool. *They look at the moving map as a way to view their
> current situation, but as if their eyeballs could view everything
> around themselves for miles; or as if they could have an out-of-body
> experience and see *themselves from above. *So as a result, this type
> of person likes to have the map reflect the reality they see outside
> at that moment; because they're trying to quickly and easily compare
> and contrast the two "visions" in real-time. *I think the "paper-map
> user" views things in a very different way, but not being that type of
> user I cannot comment more deeply on what their thought process is.

That's a good description. I prefer the map picture to stay
constant. It allows me to pick up map features easier with a quick
glance at the map. The shape of things doesn't change depending on my
heading.

I can use the glider icon to easily identify relative direction to
items in reference to fwd/aft and left/right.

>
> Take care,
>
> --Noel
> (Who doesn't think that one is inherently better than the other - just
> that some people process things differently in their mind, and thus
> can get greater use out of one or the other depending on how their
> brain works)

Agreed.

I have the same conversation with sailors too. Some like one, some
the other.

[Eric Greenwell]

toad wrote:

> That's a good description. I prefer the map picture to stay
> constant. It allows me to pick up map features easier with a quick
> glance at the map. The shape of things doesn't change depending on my
> heading.

What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation :)

>
> I can use the glider icon to easily identify relative direction to
> items in reference to fwd/aft and left/right.

That's how I did it when I was using a paper map, except I had to
imagine where the glider was.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[toad]

Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
> concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
> I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation :)

Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
see. If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
what kind of terrain features point it out.

Todd Smith
3S

[Eric Greenwell]

toad wrote:
> Eric Greenwell > wrote:
>> What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
>> concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
>> I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation :)
>
> Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
> features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
> see. If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
> what kind of terrain features point it out.

Is this sort of a distrust of the GPS? It will take you there, and it's
only the last few miles where actually picking out the airport becomes
useful.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[toad]

On Dec 17, 9:34*pm, Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> toad wrote:
> > Eric Greenwell > wrote:
> >> What kind of features are you looking for, and why? I'm normally
> >> concerned with where the airports or landing areas are in the direction
> >> I'm going. They look the same regardless of the map orientation :)
>
> > Landing sites in the database are high priority, but also navigation
> > features like mountains, lakes, rivers and roads are what I want to
> > see. *If I can't easily see a landing site directly, I want to know
> > what kind of terrain features point it out.
>
> Is this sort of a distrust of the GPS? It will take you there, and it's
> only the last few miles where actually picking out the airport becomes
> useful.

It's more that I like to actually see things than distrust per se.
But I do prefer to get a visual sighting before arrival. Especially
for low final glides. I also like to sight things for later
reference.

Todd

[Jack[_12_]]

Flying: Course Up

Driving: North Up



Jack

[Bill Bullimore[_2_]]

Procreation: face down
>Flying: Course Up
>
>Driving: North Up
>
>
>
>Jack
>

[[email protected]]

On Dec 18, 11:30*am, Bill Bullimore >
wrote:
> Procreation: face down
>
>
>
> >Flying: Course Up
>
> >Driving: North Up
>
> >Jack- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Or face wherever :}

[JJ Sinclair]

North-up's the only way to go. I tried heading-up the other day on my
SN-10 as I was going south..................took me the better part of
5 minutes to identify things. Switched back to north up and everything
fell right in place. Guess it comes from 2000 hours in the baker five
two where the scope was oriented north-up. Strip maps are OK till you
get wayyyy off course, ever try attacking a target from the north on a
east facing strip map? Yep, your flying in from the left side of the
map............screws my head right off.
JJ

[Wayne Paul]

"JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
...
> North-up's the only way to go. I tried heading-up the other day on my
> SN-10 as I was going south..................took me the better part of
> 5 minutes to identify things. Switched back to north up and everything
> fell right in place. Guess it comes from 2000 hours in the baker five
> two where the scope was oriented north-up. Strip maps are OK till you
> get wayyyy off course, ever try attacking a target from the north on a
> east facing strip map? Yep, your flying in from the left side of the
> map............screws my head right off.
> JJ

I guess it comes down to what you are use to. All my 2000+ scope time was
in aircraft where the scope was oriented with the front of the aircraft. I
didn't find changing the approach of an attack from the orientation of my
chart bothersome. Maybe this is just a Navy vs Air Force thing.

Wayne
A-3B Skywarrior, A-6A Intruder

[Uncle Fuzzy]

On Dec 18, 7:18*am, "Wayne Paul" > wrote:
> "JJ Sinclair" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
> > North-up's the only way to go. I tried heading-up the other day on my
> > SN-10 as I was going south..................took me the better part of
> > 5 minutes to identify things. Switched back to north up and everything
> > fell right in place. Guess it comes from 2000 hours in the baker five
> > two where the scope was oriented north-up. Strip maps are OK till you
> > get wayyyy off course, ever try attacking a target from the north on a
> > east facing strip map? Yep, your flying in from the left side of the
> > map............screws my head right off.
> > JJ
>
> I guess it comes down to what you are use to. *All my 2000+ scope time was
> in aircraft where the scope was oriented with the front of the aircraft. I
> didn't find changing the approach of an attack from the orientation of my
> chart bothersome. *Maybe this is just a Navy vs Air Force thing.
>
> Wayne
> A-3B Skywarrior, A-6A Intruder

As many have said, it's really a matter of personal preference. I
don't fly with 'terrain on' in XCXoar. 99% of what I want the 'puter
to tell me is which known good runways I have in range, and the
direction and strength of wind. I get the rest of the information I
need by looking out. Sometimes on long blue glides I'll look at my 'L/
D Cruise' and adjust my airspeed, but that's mostly because I can't
remember the words to most songs I'd care to sing (except "Rocky
Racoon", and my rendition leaves a lot to be desired). I also wear a
round 'chute though.

[Eric Greenwell]

Uncle Fuzzy wrote:
3B Skywarrior, A-6A Intruder
>
> As many have said, it's really a matter of personal preference. I
> don't fly with 'terrain on' in XCXoar. 99% of what I want the 'puter
> to tell me is which known good runways I have in range, and the
> direction and strength of wind. I get the rest of the information I
> need by looking out.

Ah, the simple life! I want a lot more:

* airport location and facility information (runway width, length,
frequencies)
* wind at several heights
* arrival heights at the airports
* airspace depiction
* Terrain with airports (in the mountains only)
* Thermalling assistant
* marking lift (thermals and wave) and track (wave)
* marking airstrips and fields not in the database
* task (record or contest)
* sunset time, OLC distance and path

Unfortunately, none of this can be found by looking out, except the wind
can be guessed at by watching drift of the glider or the cloud shadows.
Still, looking out is most of what I do. Without the PDA, I'd spend less
time looking out.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Ramy]

Obviously from this discussion it is just a matter of preference or
what you used to. But one advantage to North Up which I didn't see
mentioned so far is that your moving map does not move around all the
time, especially when thermaling. Even with the north up thermaling
option Paul mentioned, it means the map will switch back and forth
between north up and track up when thermaling, which must be more
confusing then having a constant orientation.

Ramy (always North Up)

On Dec 17, 8:40*am, "Paul Remde" > wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I talk to a lot of U.S. glider pilots about soaring software. Most
> (including myself) seem to prefer track up when cruising and North up when
> circling. * I like the map to correspond to what I see out the window while
> cruising. *However, while thermalling I like the map position fixed rather
> than rotating. *I like that SeeYou Mobile and other software programs can
> make the switch automatically.
>
> Good Soaring,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.http://www.cumulus-soaring.com
>
> "ContestID67" > wrote in message
>
> ...
>
>
>
> > It is winter here and the only soaring we are doing in Chicago is in
> > the hangar . During an energetic discussion on the pros and cons of
> > various soaring programs, I mentioned I fly "Direction-Up", rather
> > than "North-Up".
>
> > WHOA! You would have thought that I had said I was going to give up
> > soaring to fly helicopters by the dirty looks that I received.
>
> > Now, to be fair, with every GPS device I use (car, boat, GA), I
> > *ALWAYS* orient the map as north-up, and prefer it overall...except,
> > that is, when soaring. * I started using north-up at first, but soon
> > found that a direction-up display was much better in letting me
> > anticipate the timing of rolling out of a thermal and heading towards
> > the next turn point. *Attempting to coordinate the rotating glider
> > icon on a stationary north-up map, with the view outside and/or
> > compass, all while centering a thermal, is a bit like patting my head
> > and rubbing my stomach at the same time. *Maybe this is unique to a
> > thermal-only soaring climate. * *NOTE: I am not directionally
> > challanged.
>
> > Anyway, I wondered what others use relative to the type of soaring
> > they do.
>
> > Thanks, John- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Doug Hoffman]

Ramy wrote:
> Obviously from this discussion it is just a matter of preference or
> what you used to. But one advantage to North Up which I didn't see
> mentioned so far is that your moving map does not move around all the
> time, especially when thermaling. Even with the north up thermaling
> option Paul mentioned, it means the map will switch back and forth
> between north up and track up when thermaling, which must be more
> confusing then having a constant orientation.
>
> Ramy (always North Up)

Odd thing is, in my glider when I look outside while thermalling the
world appears to be moving around.

Seriously, I totally agree it's all a matter of preference or more
precisely what you have trained your brain to do.

I remember when I first started flying R/C gliders. While standing on
the ground and looking up at the glider and trying to instantly
translate glider turn left/right into the correct actions with my
fingers/thumbs seemed impossible. Meanwhile here were all of these
guys, many 20-30 years older than me, that were having no trouble at
all. Talk about humbling experiences. But I kept practicing and that
is the key. It took a certain amount of time for my brain to "re-wire"
itself. Before long my fingers simply did the right thing instantly
without me having to "think" about it. The brain is an amazing organ.

I believe that with practice one could "re-wire" one's brain to use most
any combination of PDA settings and be able to quickly translate between
PDA screen and the wind screen.

Regards,

-Doug

[Eric Greenwell]

Ramy wrote:
> Obviously from this discussion it is just a matter of preference or
> what you used to. But one advantage to North Up which I didn't see
> mentioned so far is that your moving map does not move around all the
> time, especially when thermaling. Even with the north up thermaling
> option Paul mentioned, it means the map will switch back and forth
> between north up and track up when thermaling, which must be more
> confusing then having a constant orientation.

I and most pilots are very familiar with the North up map, because it's
the way we look at maps most of the time for most of our lives. The PDA
map also has a the goal line on it, so it's obvious which way the flight
is going, even in North up. So, North up isn't confusing.

Track Up when flying isn't confusing, because what I can see on the map
is what I see out the window. Easy.

If you haven't flown with a Track up map, it will likely be confusing
for a few flights. It will take a while for your brain to stop
translating what it sees as a North Up map, but it'll learn.

I didn't choose Track up because it was easier to identify what was
ahead (though it is). There wasn't much to identify with the early units
- just circles for the airports, no rivers, etc. I initially did it
because I wanted the maximum amount of real estate displayed ahead of
the glider on the small PDA screen.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org