Israeli Fighter Aces.

[JDupre5762]

I have just recieved the one of the latest books in Osprey's Aircraft of the
Aces series, number 59 Israeli Mirage/Nesher Aces.

I have only just begun reading it but in the captions and list of aces its
states pretty clearly that the number two ace of the Israel Air Force is
Avraham Shalmon with 14.5 total victories.

Other references, notably Peter Mersky's book Israeli Fighter Aces list Yftach
Spector as the number two ace with 15 or 15.5 total victories. The Oprey book
lists with him with only 12.

Why the change? I know that some Israeli aces privately claim higher scores
than officially credited because they are certain they are responsible for
claims that could not be officially confirmed. I understand that this is
especially true of pilots who caused enemy aircraft to crash through manuveur
rather than firing a weapon. Is that the case with Spector or is it due to
further research in claims and losses?

John Dupre'

[Guy Alcala]

JDupre5762 wrote:

> I have just recieved the one of the latest books in Osprey's Aircraft of the
> Aces series, number 59 Israeli Mirage/Nesher Aces.
>
> I have only just begun reading it but in the captions and list of aces its
> states pretty clearly that the number two ace of the Israel Air Force is
> Avraham Shalmon with 14.5 total victories.
>
> Other references, notably Peter Mersky's book Israeli Fighter Aces list Yftach
> Spector as the number two ace with 15 or 15.5 total victories. The Oprey book
> lists with him with only 12.
>
> Why the change? I know that some Israeli aces privately claim higher scores
> than officially credited because they are certain they are responsible for
> claims that could not be officially confirmed. I understand that this is
> especially true of pilots who caused enemy aircraft to crash through manuveur
> rather than firing a weapon. Is that the case with Spector or is it due to
> further research in claims and losses?

It's equally possible that it's just a mistake. Even assuming Spector's count has
been decreased (which AFAIK hasn't happened), then Amir Nahumi would presumably
step into the number 2 spot(Mersky lists him at 14, most other sources credit him
with15). Are you sure that the claim wasn't for Shalmon as the number 2
Mirage/Nesher ace? That would be correct, as he would only be behind Giora Even
in that category, while Spector was an ace in both the Mirage and F-4, and Nahumi
in both the F-4 and F-16. Mersky lists Shalmon tied with Asher Snir at 13.5
(vice14.5) total, but Snir got some of his kills in the F-4.

Guy

[David Lednicer]

I've gone through both books in great detail and have issues with both.
Generally, I think Aloni's is much better and much more reliable.
However, his kill list in the back is missing several pilots and has
incorrect info for several other pilots. I have talked directly to
three of these pilots and tend to trust their own info. Right now, I'm
trying to reconcile all this new info so I can update my web page. I
also understand that the next book in the series will be Aloni's
accounting of F-4 kills.

[JDupre5762]

>It's equally possible that it's just a mistake. Even assuming Spector's
>count has
>been decreased (which AFAIK hasn't happened),

SNIP

> Are you sure that the claim wasn't for Shalmon as the number 2
>Mirage/Nesher ace?

>From: Guy Alcala

The captions and the text in Shlomo Aloni's book Israeli Mirage and Nesher Aces
clearly state that Avraham Shalmon is the number 2 scoring ace with 14.5
victories. He doesn't specify Mirage/Nesher though the book and its list of
aces only considers aces that flew the delta wing types. Aloni mentions
Spector as a double ace with 12 victories some of them scored on the Phantom.
The list in the appendices shows Spector with 8 kills on Mirages and only 4 on
the Phantom.
Asher Snir is listed with 13.5 victories the same as in Peter Mersky's book
Israeli Fighter Aces.

I received an e mail from someone calling himself July, apparently responding
to my first post on this thread, who states that the Israel Air Force
Historical Branch is constantly reviewing and updating the status of claims and
losses and that this branch has determined that 3 of Spectors shared claims
should be disallowed because the aircraft involved were already dead, I assume
that means the pilots had ejected, or Spector did not fire the killing shot.
The Historical Branch also credits Spector with only 12.5 victories. The
writer says that Spector does not dispute these findings.

However in the same email the writer offers that Giora Even's score is actually
19 and that Asher Snir's is 17 and Yftach Spector's is 15.5. So I am not any
more informed than before.

If you start to play with the numbers then 3 shared claims equals 1.5 victory
credits and using Spector's previously accepted score he would still have 14
kills or should have always been credited with only 14.

There are other discrepancies in Aloni's book versus Mersky's book or David
Lednicer's List of Attributed Israeli Victories as well such as reducing Oded
Marom from 11 to 9 but increasing Yehuda Koren from 9 to 10.5.

The e mailer also mentions that the Hitorical Branch is coming out in a year or
two with the definitive history of the Mirage in Israeli service. So that at
least will be something to look forward too.

BTW the book Israeli Mirage and Nesher Aces is excellent filled with great
photos many of which I have never seen before and filled with lots of
interesting information. I guess the scores of aces will forever be subject to
adjsustments.

John Dupre'

[Lawrence Nyveen]

In article >,
David Lednicer > wrote:

> I've gone through both books in great detail and have issues with both.
> Generally, I think Aloni's is much better and much more reliable.
> However, his kill list in the back is missing several pilots and has
> incorrect info for several other pilots. I have talked directly to
> three of these pilots and tend to trust their own info.

You're trusting fighter pilots to tell the truth???

There I was....

;)


--
Laurie Nyveen
__________________________________________________ _____________________
Editor, Netsurfer Digest http://www.netsurf.com/nsd
Editor, WWII TechPubs http://www.wwiitechpubs.info
101 "Red" Squadron, Israel http://www.101squadron.com

"All we are, basically, are monkeys with car keys."
- Grandma Woody (Northern Exposure)

(Remove nada from Canada to e-mail me. Sorry)

[David Lednicer]

Considering that each has given me a list of officially confirmed and
"I'm sure of it, but it wasn't confirmed" kills, yes (I have listed the
unconfirmed ones with a note that they weren't confirmed).

[Guy Alcala]

JDupre5762 wrote:

<snip>

> The e mailer also mentions that the Hitorical Branch is coming out in a year or
> two with the definitive history of the Mirage in Israeli service. So that at
> least will be something to look forward too.
>
> BTW the book Israeli Mirage and Nesher Aces is excellent filled with great
> photos many of which I have never seen before and filled with lots of
> interesting information. I guess the scores of aces will forever be subject to
> adjsustments.

I know they have been revising: I've read in the past on r.a.m. that they took away
EzerWeizmann's kill some years back - see the ram thread

IAF squadron 101 celebrates its 50th anniversary

from1998 for details. I'll have to find a copy of Aloni's book. Let'shope the HB
publishes an english version, or at least allows a translation.

Guy

[David E. Powell]

"David Lednicer" > wrote in message
...
>
> Considering that each has given me a list of officially confirmed and
> "I'm sure of it, but it wasn't confirmed" kills, yes (I have listed the
> unconfirmed ones with a note that they weren't confirmed).

Reminds one of the film "The Blue Max."

[David Lednicer]

> from1998 for details. I'll have to find a copy of Aloni's book. Let'shope the HB
> publishes an english version, or at least allows a translation.

It's in English and Amazon has it for $13.95!

[Guy Alcala]

David Lednicer wrote:

> > from1998 for details. I'll have to find a copy of Aloni's book. Let'shope the HB
> > publishes an english version, or at least allows a translation.
>
> It's in English and Amazon has it for $13.95!

Sorry for my lack of clarity -- I was referring to the IAF HB Mirage history mentioned.

Guy