Major McSally takes command :)

[Cub Driver]

This from the Aero-News Propwash email newsletter this morning:

***********************************************

USAF Names First Female To Command Combat Squadron
And You'll Never Guess...

The 354th Fighter
Squadron, based at Arizona's Davis-Monthan AFB, has a new
commander: Lt. Col. Martha McSally.

If that name rings familiar, you might remember that the 38-year
old McSally sued the Pentagon three years ago because, while in
Saudi Arabia, the military made her wear Muslim religious garb --
called abayas -- so as not to offend the locals.

That offended McSally's Christian sensibilities and, she said,
was unnecessary. Other US women serving in Saudi Arabia --
diplomats and office workers -- didn't have to comply with the
order.

McSally becomes the first woman to command a combat squadron.
The 354th conducts A-10 operations in both Afhganistan and Iraq.
But that's nothing new to McSally. She's used to being the
first.

In 1994, she was the first female USAF pilot to conduct combat
operations.
FMI: www.af.mil

For the WHOLE story, go to
http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=e61b5e06-fd6b-4325-90da-2f6a92f465e8

************************************************** ****
all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Matt Wiser]

I seem to remember some folks on this NG saying her career was done after
that lawsuit. Now how soon will the Navy get a female carrier squadron CO?




Cub Driver > wrote:
>
>This from the Aero-News Propwash email newsletter
>this morning:
>
>***********************************************
>
>USAF Names First Female To Command Combat Squadron
>And You'll Never Guess...
>
>The 354th Fighter
>Squadron, based at Arizona's Davis-Monthan AFB,
>has a new
>commander: Lt. Col. Martha McSally.
>
>If that name rings familiar, you might remember
>that the 38-year
>old McSally sued the Pentagon three years ago
>because, while in
>Saudi Arabia, the military made her wear Muslim
>religious garb --
>called abayas -- so as not to offend the locals.
>
>
>That offended McSally's Christian sensibilities
>and, she said,
>was unnecessary. Other US women serving in Saudi
>Arabia --
>diplomats and office workers -- didn't have
>to comply with the
>order.
>
>The 354th conducts A-10 operations in both Afhganistan
>and Iraq.
>But that's nothing new to McSally. She's used
>to being the
>first.
>
>In 1994, she was the first female USAF pilot
>to conduct combat
>operations.
>FMI: www.af.mil
>
>For the WHOLE story, go to
>http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=e61b5e06-fd6b-4325-90da-2f6a92f465e8
>
>************************************************** ****
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver
>in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
>Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org


Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Leslie Swartz]

No, Matt, if she were a MAN here career would have been over. In today's
military, she'll be 0-6 BTZ and more than likely a one-button within the
next five years.

"Equal" opportunity doncha know.

Steve Swartz




"Matt Wiser" > wrote in message
news:40992d8f$1@bg2....
>
> I seem to remember some folks on this NG saying her career was done after
> that lawsuit. Now how soon will the Navy get a female carrier squadron CO?
>
>
>
>
> Cub Driver > wrote:
> >
> >This from the Aero-News Propwash email newsletter
> >this morning:
> >
> >***********************************************
> >
> >USAF Names First Female To Command Combat Squadron
> >And You'll Never Guess...
> >
> >The 354th Fighter
> >Squadron, based at Arizona's Davis-Monthan AFB,
> >has a new
> >commander: Lt. Col. Martha McSally.
> >
> >If that name rings familiar, you might remember
> >that the 38-year
> >old McSally sued the Pentagon three years ago
> >because, while in
> >Saudi Arabia, the military made her wear Muslim
> >religious garb --
> >called abayas -- so as not to offend the locals.
> >
> >
> >That offended McSally's Christian sensibilities
> >and, she said,
> >was unnecessary. Other US women serving in Saudi
> >Arabia --
> >diplomats and office workers -- didn't have
> >to comply with the
> >order.
> >
> >The 354th conducts A-10 operations in both Afhganistan
> >and Iraq.
> >But that's nothing new to McSally. She's used
> >to being the
> >first.
> >
> >In 1994, she was the first female USAF pilot
> >to conduct combat
> >operations.
> >FMI: www.af.mil
> >
> >For the WHOLE story, go to
>
>http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=e61b5e06-fd6b-432
5-90da-2f6a92f465e8
> >
> >************************************************** ****
> >all the best -- Dan Ford
> >email: (put Cubdriver
> >in subject line)
> >
> >The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
> >The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
> >Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org
>
>
> Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[BUFDRVR]

>McSally becomes the first woman to command a combat squadron.

Not 100% true. In 1994 I had to wake up extra early to be on "Good Morning
America" with our new squadron commander (a woman) who was being hailed as the
"first woman to command a combat squadron". Now, granted, we were a Minuteman
III ICBM squadron, but we were still considered a combat (designated as Combat
Crews) unit.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ed Rasimus]

On 06 May 2004 14:29:20 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>>McSally becomes the first woman to command a combat squadron.
>
>Not 100% true. In 1994 I had to wake up extra early to be on "Good Morning
>America" with our new squadron commander (a woman) who was being hailed as the
>"first woman to command a combat squadron". Now, granted, we were a Minuteman
>III ICBM squadron, but we were still considered a combat (designated as Combat
>Crews) unit.

Ahh, those were the days. The development of the "Combat Crew" badge
to provide dignity to the non-combatants in the holes of the great
American prairies. Never saw one on an aircrew uniform at least in the
Unified commands. Did see one or two on the pockets of some Specified
command drivers....

And the missile badge, predecessor of the current generation fixation
with a badge for every specialty. Gotta look real close to see if the
brightly nickle-plated escutcheon is personnel, finance, food
services, JAG, or civil engineers.

For a while at Nellis we wanted to all wear missileer badges--only we
were going to wear them horizontally just below our wings. SAC's
missiles pointed upward, ours fired horizontally. We actually got to
shoot ours.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[BUFDRVR]

>Ahh, those were the days. The development of the "Combat Crew" badge
>to provide dignity to the non-combatants in the holes of the great
>American prairies.

I would think you'de be glad the missileers were "non-combatants" throughout
their history.

>Never saw one on an aircrew uniform at least in the
>Unified commands.

You only wore them on your blues, and if I remember right, I saw at least one
aircrew member with blues on wearing it.

>And the missile badge, predecessor of the current generation fixation
>with a badge for every specialty.

Its a good thing you're not in today Ed, even the "lowly missileers" wear
flight suits. For the life of me, I can't figure out why anyone cares what the
hell anyone else is wearing.....

>SAC's
>missiles pointed upward, ours fired horizontally. We actually got to
>shoot ours.

You wouldn't be typing this if SAC got to shoot theirs.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Tom Swift]

"BUFDRVR" <wrote in message
>> You wouldn't be typing this if SAC got to shoot theirs.
>
>
> BUFDRVR
>
It is always a truism, that those who couldn't hack it and be in SAC were
the most vociferous in their criticism.

[Cub Driver]

On Thu, 06 May 2004 14:54:45 -0600, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:

>For a while at Nellis we wanted to all wear missileer badges--only we
>were going to wear them horizontally just below our wings.

Fighter pilots do like to get into trouble on their days off, don't
they?


all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

BUFDRVR wrote:
>> SAC's missiles pointed upward, ours fired horizontally. We
>> actually got to shoot ours.
>
> You wouldn't be typing this if SAC got to shoot theirs.



What's that old squadron song? "Will I Go Boom Today"?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN


http://www.mortimerschnerd.com

[Jeff Crowell]

Cub Driver wrote:
> Fighter pilots do like to get into trouble on their days off, don't
> they?

Heh. Not that I was ever a fighter pilot, but...

I do remember foindly the time I got thrown out of an Air
Farce O-Club because a particularly stuffy general took a
disliking to my and my buds' Scarves, Flying, Field
Expedient, Type I ( an appropriate length of toilet paper,
wrapped round our necks). Hell, everyone else in the
place had a scarf on at Happy Hour, and at least our
zoombags showed some sign of having been worn to fly
that day.



Jeff

[B2431]

>From: "Mortimer Schnerd, RN"
>
>
>BUFDRVR wrote:
>>> SAC's missiles pointed upward, ours fired horizontally. We
>>> actually got to shoot ours.
>>
>> You wouldn't be typing this if SAC got to shoot theirs.
>
>
>
>What's that old squadron song? "Will I Go Boom Today"?
>

>Mortimer Schnerd, RN

The song to which you refer was popular in Macdill in the 1940s to 1960s.

"Will you go boom today? Will you go boom today? We lost one yesterday, it
landed in the bay."

The song varies by aircraft type.

There was a song about the B-36 sung to the tune of Battle Hymn of the
Republic:

"The B-36 it flies at forty thousand feet, the B-36 flies at forty thousand
feet. THe B-36 it flies at forty thousand feet, but it only has a teensy,
weensy bomb."

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

[Ed Rasimus]

On Fri, 7 May 2004 06:39:09 -0600, "Jeff Crowell"
> wrote:

>Cub Driver wrote:
>> Fighter pilots do like to get into trouble on their days off, don't
>> they?
>
>Heh. Not that I was ever a fighter pilot, but...
>
>I do remember foindly the time I got thrown out of an Air
>Farce O-Club because a particularly stuffy general took a
>disliking to my and my buds' Scarves, Flying, Field
>Expedient, Type I ( an appropriate length of toilet paper,
>wrapped round our necks). Hell, everyone else in the
>place had a scarf on at Happy Hour, and at least our
>zoombags showed some sign of having been worn to fly
>that day.

I recall one of the waning days of my mediocre aviation career,
dropping into Nellis for a weekend X-C. Head to the Q for a quick
douche, don the finest civvies, splash a bit of "sure-****" on the
face so's I smell delightful and head to the bar.

Sure enough the place is Friday night packed with intrepid aviators
and that pleasant by-product of Top Gun "The Movie", the Fighter-Pilot
Groupie!

A few toddys and I strike up a conversation with an attractive young
prospect who seems amenable to dinner and possibly some post-prandial
activities. When I invite her out, she looks and says, "but you aren't
a pilot."

I reply that most assuredly I am--possibly the best and undoubtedly
the most combat experienced aviator in the room.

She says, "no you're not. You're not wearing a flight suit."

So much for the rewards for being clean and well-groomed in a fighter
pilot bar.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Guy Alcala]

Ed Rasimus wrote:

<snip>

> I recall one of the waning days of my mediocre aviation career,
> dropping into Nellis for a weekend X-C. Head to the Q for a quick
> douche, don the finest civvies, splash a bit of "sure-****" on the
> face so's I smell delightful and head to the bar.
>
> Sure enough the place is Friday night packed with intrepid aviators
> and that pleasant by-product of Top Gun "The Movie", the Fighter-Pilot
> Groupie!
>
> A few toddys and I strike up a conversation with an attractive young
> prospect who seems amenable to dinner and possibly some post-prandial
> activities. When I invite her out, she looks and says, "but you aren't
> a pilot."
>
> I reply that most assuredly I am--possibly the best and undoubtedly
> the most combat experienced aviator in the room.
>
> She says, "no you're not. You're not wearing a flight suit."
>
> So much for the rewards for being clean and well-groomed in a fighter
> pilot bar.

I think her doubts started when you only claimed that you were "possibly"
the best - semi-humility from a fighter jock? ;-)

Guy

[Ed Rasimus]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 23:08:40 GMT, Guy Alcala
> wrote:

>Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
>> I reply that most assuredly I am--possibly the best and undoubtedly
>> the most combat experienced aviator in the room.
>>
>> She says, "no you're not. You're not wearing a flight suit."
>>
>> So much for the rewards for being clean and well-groomed in a fighter
>> pilot bar.
>
>I think her doubts started when you only claimed that you were "possibly"
>the best - semi-humility from a fighter jock? ;-)
>
>Guy

For years I've contended that false modesty was much worse than no
modesty at all.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[OXMORON1]

Ed wrote and Guy quoted:
>> I recall one of the waning days of my mediocre aviation career,
>> dropping into Nellis for a weekend X-C. Head to the Q for a quick
>> douche, don the finest civvies, splash a bit of "sure-****" on the
>> face so's I smell delightful and head to the bar.
>>
>> Sure enough the place is Friday night packed with intrepid aviators
>> and that pleasant by-product of Top Gun "The Movie", the Fighter-Pilot
>> Groupie!
>>
>> A few toddys and I strike up a conversation with an attractive young
>> prospect who seems amenable to dinner and possibly some post-prandial
>> activities. When I invite her out, she looks and says, "but you aren't
>> a pilot."
>>
>> I reply that most assuredly I am--possibly the best and undoubtedly
>> the most combat experienced aviator in the room.
>>
>> She says, "no you're not. You're not wearing a flight suit."
>>
>> So much for the rewards for being clean and well-groomed in a fighter
>> pilot bar.
>
>I think her doubts started when you only claimed that you were "possibly"
>the best - semi-humility from a fighter jock? ;-)
>
>Guy
Nay,
Ed didn't say anything about putting on the large chronometer with 8 dials and
seven buttons. Also he did put on the stinkum, ergo he was not a real pilot.
She probably mistook him for a T-29 driver as opposed to a real pilot, if she
thought he really was an aviator at all.
Probably not wearing his American Optical aviator's shades either.

oxmoron
MFE

Oxmoron1

[Ed Rasimus]

On 07 May 2004 23:51:01 GMT, (OXMORON1) wrote:

>Ed wrote and Guy quoted:
>>> I recall one of the waning days of my mediocre aviation career,
>>> dropping into Nellis for a weekend X-C. Head to the Q for a quick
>>> douche, don the finest civvies, splash a bit of "sure-****" on the
>>> face so's I smell delightful and head to the bar.
>>>
>>> A few toddys and I strike up a conversation with an attractive young
>>> prospect who seems amenable to dinner and possibly some post-prandial
>>> activities. When I invite her out, she looks and says, "but you aren't
>>> a pilot."
>>>
>>> I reply that most assuredly I am--possibly the best and undoubtedly
>>> the most combat experienced aviator in the room.
>>>
>>> She says, "no you're not. You're not wearing a flight suit."
>>
>>I think her doubts started when you only claimed that you were "possibly"
>>the best - semi-humility from a fighter jock? ;-)
>>
>>Guy
>Nay,
>Ed didn't say anything about putting on the large chronometer with 8 dials and
>seven buttons. Also he did put on the stinkum, ergo he was not a real pilot.
>She probably mistook him for a T-29 driver as opposed to a real pilot, if she
>thought he really was an aviator at all.
>Probably not wearing his American Optical aviator's shades either.

Actually, it is only slick-wings that don't apply a dab of high
quality sure-**** before evening one-v-one sorties. Senior pilots and
toilet seat owners always meet the highest aromatic standards.

I did have the custom black-bezel GMT-Master Rolex prominently
displayed and was wearing my aviator style Serengetti Drivers in the
bar. Must also note that my heavy gold two-baht chain and personalized
Buddha were visible through the open collar of my spread-collar,
subtly flowered polyester Saturday Day Night Fever Travolta shirt.

No way she could mistake me for anything but a tactical aviator.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[OXMORON1]

Ed described his suave dress and noted the appropriate wearing on the watch
with shades and stated:

>No way she could mistake me for anything but a tactical aviator.

It all seems correct, you appear to have done the proper mission planning. Two
questions come to mind....

1. Where you making the flying movements with the hands? As opposed to just
grabbing ass?
2. Where you having a bad hair day?

Oxmoron1
MFE

[Ed Rasimus]

On 08 May 2004 16:28:28 GMT, (OXMORON1) wrote:

>Ed described his suave dress and noted the appropriate wearing on the watch
>with shades and stated:
>
>>No way she could mistake me for anything but a tactical aviator.
>
>It all seems correct, you appear to have done the proper mission planning. Two
>questions come to mind....
>
>1. Where you making the flying movements with the hands? As opposed to just
>grabbing ass?
>2. Where you having a bad hair day?

Tactics were perfect. I moved into position abeam a fellow aviator and
the target. I quickly made a feint toward the Fighter Weapons School
student with a derogatory comment about how easy it was to film the
tennis-court sized planform of his Ego Jet, then shifted focus quickly
to the true objective before he could respond properly. Then by
deflecting his rebuttal I quickly engaged the SYT in some dazzling
repartee regarding the fallacy of the large watch/physical anatomy
rumor that BUFF pilots have been spreading about the tactical
community for years.

I shot my watch a couple of times, demonstrated the proper briefing
technique for demonstrating a barrel-roll attack in one single,
non-stop motion without reversal of the hand or dislocating of the
wrist.

Much like Warren Zevon's Werewolf of London, my hair was perfect.
Which could have been my downfall, since the rest of the tactical
types in goatskins still had vestiges of "helmet-hair."



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Alan Minyard]

On Wed, 5 May 2004 18:51:31 -0400, "Leslie Swartz" > wrote:

>No, Matt, if she were a MAN here career would have been over. In today's
>military, she'll be 0-6 BTZ and more than likely a one-button within the
>next five years.
>
>"Equal" opportunity doncha know.
>
>Steve Swartz
>
You certainly hit the nail on the head!!!! The feminazis will be holding rallies
any day now, and SACOF****S, oops, I mean DACOWITS will be screaming
bloody murder.

Al Minyard

[Alan Minyard]

On Fri, 07 May 2004 05:20:57 -0400, Cub Driver > wrote:

>On Thu, 06 May 2004 14:54:45 -0600, Ed Rasimus
> wrote:
>
>>For a while at Nellis we wanted to all wear missileer badges--only we
>>were going to wear them horizontally just below our wings.
>
>Fighter pilots do like to get into trouble on their days off, don't
>they?
>
>
>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)
>
They must, they certainly do it with an amazing degree of regularity :-)
Being a pilot and being in "hack" were nearly synonymous!!

Al Minyard

[OXMORON1]

After a well described critique of the "mission" Ed concluded with:

>Much like Warren Zevon's Werewolf of London, my hair was perfect.
>Which could have been my downfall, since the rest of the tactical
>types in goatskins still had vestiges of "helmet-hair."
>
>
Speaking from the Navigator/WSO side of the cockpit (aka backseat), it appears
as if it was just one of those days.
We did in that time period suggest a burr/flattop/"Princeton cut" to avoid the
"helmut hair" appearance. Also we preffered "English Leather" to Avon products
as the Eau de splash, fresh but outdoorsie.
It appears that you were just SOL for that encounter, as covered by the saying
of my people..."Some days you eat the cougar, some days the cougar eats you"
(Or bear or lion, whatever your tribe ascribes to )

Oxmoron1
MFE
Mentioned in Dispatches

[Matt Wiser]

Probably so, but there were those on this NG who were saying that her career
was over and done after the lawsuit. (I wasn't one of them BTW) She had some
very good arguments in her case, which have become moot now that Prince Sultan
AB has now reverted to RSAF control, and the active bases are now in countries
that are much more tolerant of servicewomen off-base. Having a number of
congressional friends certainly helped as well. She probably will be a O-6
and a wing commander in the future.




"Leslie Swartz" > wrote:
>No, Matt, if she were a MAN here career would
>have been over. In today's
>military, she'll be 0-6 BTZ and more than likely
>a one-button within the
>next five years.
>
>"Equal" opportunity doncha know.
>
>Steve Swartz
>
>
>
>
>"Matt Wiser" > wrote
>in message
>news:40992d8f$1@bg2....
>>
>> I seem to remember some folks on this NG saying
>her career was done after
>> that lawsuit. Now how soon will the Navy get
>a female carrier squadron CO?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cub Driver > wrote:
>> >
>> >This from the Aero-News Propwash email newsletter
>> >this morning:
>> >
>> >***********************************************
>> >
>> >USAF Names First Female To Command Combat
>Squadron
>> >And You'll Never Guess...
>> >
>> >The 354th Fighter
>> >Squadron, based at Arizona's Davis-Monthan
>AFB,
>> >has a new
>> >commander: Lt. Col. Martha McSally.
>> >
>> >If that name rings familiar, you might remember
>> >that the 38-year
>> >old McSally sued the Pentagon three years
>ago
>> >because, while in
>> >Saudi Arabia, the military made her wear
>Muslim
>> >religious garb --
>> >called abayas -- so as not to offend the
>locals.
>> >
>> >
>> >That offended McSally's Christian sensibilities
>> >and, she said,
>> >was unnecessary. Other US women serving in
>Saudi
>> >Arabia --
>> >diplomats and office workers -- didn't have
>> >to comply with the
>> >order.
>> >
>> >The 354th conducts A-10 operations in both
>Afhganistan
>> >and Iraq.
>> >But that's nothing new to McSally. She's
>used
>> >to being the
>> >first.
>> >
>> >In 1994, she was the first female USAF pilot
>> >to conduct combat
>> >operations.
>> >FMI: www.af.mil
>> >
>> >For the WHOLE story, go to
>>
>>http://www.aero-news.net/news/military.cfm?ContentBlockID=e61b5e06-fd6b-432
>5-90da-2f6a92f465e8
>> >
>> >************************************************** ****
>> >all the best -- Dan Ford
>> >email: (put Cubdriver
>> >in subject line)
>> >
>> >The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>> >The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
>> >Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org
>>
>>
>> Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to
>news gateway for usenet access!
>
>


Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Andy Bush]

My guess is that she will make O-6 on time but not before and then go no
further. I strongly suspect that she has other plans than making the AF a
long term affair. If HRC manages to worm herself into power, McChing will
likely show up somewhere in the SecDef area.
"Alan Minyard" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 5 May 2004 18:51:31 -0400, "Leslie Swartz"
> wrote:
>
> >No, Matt, if she were a MAN here career would have been over. In today's
> >military, she'll be 0-6 BTZ and more than likely a one-button within the
> >next five years.
> >
> >"Equal" opportunity doncha know.
> >
> >Steve Swartz
> >
> You certainly hit the nail on the head!!!! The feminazis will be holding
rallies
> any day now, and SACOF****S, oops, I mean DACOWITS will be screaming
> bloody murder.
>
> Al Minyard

[Cub Driver]

>She had some
>very good arguments in her case,

JAG got a good episode out of it.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org

[Jim Thomas]

Aw, c'mon, Ed; give some credit to those folks who spent hours and
days in the ballistic missile holes. I would argue that what they did
on alert had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than
anything we fighter pilots ever did. My last USAF assignment was with
the Ballistic Missile Office at Norton AFB (since shut down). I'm
authorized to wear the pocket rocket (and did) because of my time
there. I didn't feel that I deserved it, since I had never sat in the
hole, but I wore it anyway to show support to the folks that did. I
thank God that I got to see the sky most times that I did my job,
unlike the folks in the holes. And thank God that the SAC missileers
never got to shoot theirs.

Jim Thomas


Ed Rasimus > wrote in message >...
>
> And the missile badge, predecessor of the current generation fixation
> with a badge for every specialty. Gotta look real close to see if the
> brightly nickle-plated escutcheon is personnel, finance, food
> services, JAG, or civil engineers.
>
> For a while at Nellis we wanted to all wear missileer badges--only we
> were going to wear them horizontally just below our wings. SAC's
> missiles pointed upward, ours fired horizontally. We actually got to
> shoot ours.
>
>
> Ed Rasimus
> Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
> "When Thunder Rolled"
> Smithsonian Institution Press
> ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Ed Rasimus]

On 9 May 2004 22:58:30 -0700, (Jim Thomas)
wrote:

>Aw, c'mon, Ed; give some credit to those folks who spent hours and
>days in the ballistic missile holes. I would argue that what they did
>on alert had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than
>anything we fighter pilots ever did. My last USAF assignment was with
>the Ballistic Missile Office at Norton AFB (since shut down). I'm
>authorized to wear the pocket rocket (and did) because of my time
>there. I didn't feel that I deserved it, since I had never sat in the
>hole, but I wore it anyway to show support to the folks that did. I
>thank God that I got to see the sky most times that I did my job,
>unlike the folks in the holes. And thank God that the SAC missileers
>never got to shoot theirs.
>
>Jim Thomas

I always give credit where credit is due. The missileers did the job
assigned them with professionalism and skill. My comments on the badge
were in the nature of humor and not a disparagement of their efforts.

That being said, however, I'll disagree with your contention that
strategic missiles did more to hasten the collapse of the Soviet Union
than the tactical forces and the continued development and application
of weapons that demonstrated conclusively the superiority of American
technology, training and innovation. The collapse of Soviet client
forces and the inability of Soviet doctrine to counter or even compete
effectively led to the collapse.

Sitting and waiting with a deterrent force kept the peace, but it also
insured a stalemate. Demonstrating over the years that SA-2, 3, 4, 6,
7, 9, 11, 12, 13, etc. etc. couldn't protect against American airpower
and that MiG-17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 and AA-2,, etc etc, couldn't
counter US fighters, the armor couldn't shoot, scoot and communicate
as did ours and the maneuver elements of the ground forces couldn't
integrate and coordinate at the level of our tactical forces, and the
Navy couldn't project and sustain operations globally as ours could,
etc. etc. That's what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Snapping your fingers will keep the elephants away, if they aren't
coming anyway. Going where the elephant lives and kicking him in the
balls will get him to move out of the region.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[Matt Wiser]

Cub Driver > wrote:
>
>>She had some
>>very good arguments in her case,
>
>JAG got a good episode out of it.

One of my favorite episodes. They do get a lot of episode material from real-life
events. One based on Kelly Flinn a few years back, another similar to the
Tailhook scandal, Harm's landing a C-130 on a carrier (they remembered the
C-103 landing tests on USS Forrestal (CV-59) back in '63), and so forth.



>all the best -- Dan Ford
>email: (put Cubdriver
>in subject line)
>
>The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
>The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
>Viva Bush! blog www.vivabush.org


Posted via www.My-Newsgroups.com - web to news gateway for usenet access!

[Jim Thomas]

Ed Rasimus > wrote in message >
>
> That being said, however, I'll disagree with your contention that
> strategic missiles did more to hasten the collapse of the Soviet Union
> than the tactical forces and the continued development and application
> of weapons that demonstrated conclusively the superiority of American
> technology, training and innovation. The collapse of Soviet client
> forces and the inability of Soviet doctrine to counter or even compete
> effectively led to the collapse.
>
> Sitting and waiting with a deterrent force kept the peace, but it also
> insured a stalemate. Demonstrating over the years that SA-2, 3, 4, 6,
> 7, 9, 11, 12, 13, etc. etc. couldn't protect against American airpower
> and that MiG-17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 and AA-2,, etc etc, couldn't
> counter US fighters, the armor couldn't shoot, scoot and communicate
> as did ours and the maneuver elements of the ground forces couldn't
> integrate and coordinate at the level of our tactical forces, and the
> Navy couldn't project and sustain operations globally as ours could,
> etc. etc. That's what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


I agree with everything you said, and defer to your expertise in these
areas. However, it is also true that trying to keep up with our
strategic weapons during the Reagan administration-- Peacekeeper,
Small ICBM, stealth technology, and others-- had no small part in
breaking the bear's budget and hastening the collapse of the Soviet
Union.

Jim Thomas

[Ron]

>From: (Jim Thomas)
>Date: 5/9/2004 11:58 PM Mountain Daylight Time
>Message-id: >
>
>Aw, c'mon, Ed; give some credit to those folks who spent hours and
>days in the ballistic missile holes. I would argue that what they did
>on alert had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than
>anything we fighter pilots ever did. My last USAF assignment was with
>the Ballistic Missile Office at Norton AFB

Just spent some time there last week. What was Norton AFB, is now San
Bernardino International, not that there are exactly many international flights
or any airline traffic there. But it is host to a USFS tanker base, so got
quite a few loads of retardant there last week . Even saw my tanker on an La tv
station doing a drop.


Ron
Tanker 65, C-54E (DC-4)
Silver City Tanker Base

[BUFDRVR]

Ed Rasimus Wrote:

>Sitting and waiting with a deterrent force kept the peace, but it also
>insured a stalemate. Demonstrating over the years that SA-2, 3, 4, 6,
>7, 9, 11, 12, 13, etc. etc. couldn't protect against American airpower
>and that MiG-17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 and AA-2,, etc etc, couldn't
>counter US fighters, the armor
>couldn't shoot, scoot and communicate
>as did ours and the maneuver elements of the ground forces couldn't
>integrate and coordinate at the level of our tactical forces, and the
>Navy couldn't project and sustain operations globally as ours could,
>etc. etc. That's what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
>

I think this may be a chicken-egg argument. I can argue that without U.S. ICBMs
(and hey, I'll even throw in SLBMs) to counter the Soviet equivelent, we would
never have been able to duel with Soviet client states as the USSR would have
felt much more at ease to step in and escalate things.

>Snapping your fingers will keep the elephants away, if they aren't
>coming anyway. Going where the elephant lives and kicking him in the
>balls will get him to move out of the region.

In this case, the conventional world may have been kicking the elephant in the
nuts, but the nuclear guys had a knife at his throat allowing that to happen.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[BUFDRVR]

Jim Thomas wrote:

> However, it is also true that trying to keep up with our
>strategic weapons during the Reagan administration-- Peacekeeper,
>Small ICBM, stealth technology, and others-- had no small part in
>breaking the bear's budget and hastening the collapse of the Soviet
>Union.

Let's not forget Mathias Rust ;)


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[Ed Rasimus]

On 10 May 2004 21:48:28 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Ed Rasimus Wrote:

>>Snapping your fingers will keep the elephants away, if they aren't
>>coming anyway. Going where the elephant lives and kicking him in the
>>balls will get him to move out of the region.
>
>In this case, the conventional world may have been kicking the elephant in the
>nuts, but the nuclear guys had a knife at his throat allowing that to happen.

Without torturing the metaphor too much more, let me suggest that
while the blade was sharp, the willingness to be deluged by the
barrels of elephant blood that would have generated made it a fairly
certain thing that the slice wouldn't have occurred.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

[BUFDRVR]

Ed Rasimus Wrote:

>Without torturing the metaphor too much more, let me suggest that
>while the blade was sharp, the willingness to be deluged by the
>barrels of elephant blood that would have generated made it a fairly
>certain thing that the slice wouldn't have occurred.
>

Not unless the elephant broke out his blade first. Rest assured, had the
elephant taken out his blade the deluge of blood would have been a secondary
concern. I herby declare this metaphor dead. Let me finish by saying Ed that I
believe the balance (however rough it was at times) between our conventional
force and our nuclear force combined to successfully win the Cold War.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

[[email protected]]

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

>Ed Rasimus Wrote:
>
>>Without torturing the metaphor too much more, let me suggest that
>>while the blade was sharp, the willingness to be deluged by the
>>barrels of elephant blood that would have generated made it a fairly
>>certain thing that the slice wouldn't have occurred.
>>
>
>Not unless the elephant broke out his blade first. Rest assured, had the
>elephant taken out his blade the deluge of blood would have been a secondary
>concern. I herby declare this metaphor dead. Let me finish by saying Ed that I
>believe the balance (however rough it was at times) between our conventional
>force and our nuclear force combined to successfully win the Cold War.
>
>BUFDRVR
>
A very interesting little play...
--

-Gord.